0:17

A I Kara and you're listening to sway today.

0:21

I want to talk how the information age

0:23

has become. The misinformation age from

0:25

covid-19 to qanon Enthusiast

0:27

and big lie. Believers, it sometimes

0:30

feels like we live in a truth world.

0:32

In fact, it feels like we already lived

0:34

there all the time now. My

0:37

guess today is. The stranger and and. Leonard

0:40

Pas, there is father of know. When two

0:42

thousand and twelve at only age sex was murdered

0:44

at the school shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary.

0:48

Noah was one of twenty children and six educators

0:51

who lost their lives and that massacre, and

0:53

while much. The America mourn the tragedy some

0:55

did not. rumors abound in

0:57

our mind calling Sandy Hook hoax.

0:59

Among the chief conspiracies,

1:02

Conservative Talk show host and founder

1:04

of.

1:04

In a war is Alex Jones Sandy,

1:07

Hook is synthetic

1:10

completely fake with actors,

1:13

in my view manufactured view couldn't believe

1:15

it at, first I knew they had assets

1:17

they are clearly but thought they kill some real kids

1:20

and is your shows how much. they are

1:23

that they clearly use actors

1:28

Leonard Partner took on Jones first with

1:30

facts then with the law. Which

1:32

made him a target for Relentless trolling.

1:34

First online, then, in real life,

1:36

given the threat He he and his family

1:38

suffered. He's still wary of showing his

1:40

face in either domain. So,

1:42

I wanted to pasta. of. What did you learn

1:45

from a near decade long personal battle against

1:47

misinformation and money thing? The

1:49

might help.

1:54

Any posts are welcome to sway. Thank

1:56

you. Thank you so much for doing this,

1:58

I really appreciate and it's. Really. Important

2:00

work you're doing some want to start

2:02

at that beginning and I'm not going to ask you to relive

2:04

the day of the hit Sandy Hook shooting because

2:07

can't imagine. him for children myself

2:09

but do want to hear about the first day

2:11

is saw lies on line one.

2:14

was that and what did you see

2:16

Am I?

2:17

The and anything online would

2:19

have been a few weeks after the to do so.

2:22

The tragedy, I. An

2:24

ancient anything else course not and

2:27

when I did start to look around to

2:29

see how it was being ported on I,

2:31

saw red way that. enforce

2:34

forums and other websites The

2:38

word on. Really

2:40

recently to. The

2:42

victims, not in a compassionate

2:45

way.

2:50

In all of those buzzwords that arm

2:53

probably quite common,

2:55

now,. where to me You

2:57

know, at the time of the shooting that wasn't something

3:00

that people were familiar was the

3:02

crisis actors mean these were actors who

3:04

acted this out for it. And

3:07

when I noticed. The through the

3:09

tragedy is that people were

3:12

affected by this so, most

3:14

people respond to that of course

3:16

with compassion, and the

3:18

people the. didn't do that Ah,

3:21

kind of sheet. That

3:23

heat man. He

3:26

was eating and. That's

3:29

on the form. All of the accusations

3:32

of started.

3:34

There's always been conspiracy theories, but this was

3:36

took on out an amplification level and

3:38

as I would say hate level that was

3:40

unprecedented.

3:42

It did, in there was something about the timing

3:44

of this and the evolution

3:46

of the Internet really. I

3:49

heard it referred to as the canary and coal

3:51

mine for. this

3:54

Hi this expansion nice ideas

3:56

so ah.

4:00

Maybe I agree to him when see that way.

4:04

I was familiar with these ideas to hand entertained

4:06

many conspiracy theories and of or sounds familiar with

4:08

our students to. hear

4:10

them The right it. At

4:12

me and coming. through

4:15

Extremely.

4:17

Upsetting let's my you are familiar

4:19

personally or because I interfaces for

4:22

six years had an interest in it and

4:24

was familiar with people, like

4:26

Alex Jones and. When you see entertain you

4:28

just is that it was interesting are just

4:30

as he was entertaining and

4:33

you know when came across

4:35

and would, assume it's. my didn't

4:38

stick out

4:38

Mine where you saw it, I mean, all of this pretty horrible

4:41

as he spent any time listening to it, but is there anything

4:43

that you were like? Was shocked

4:45

by.

4:46

I was shocked, mean, respected

4:49

the. Happy, belated

4:51

people have questions to people have

4:54

wanted to have more information about

4:56

this. Extreme

4:59

example of them, dance. They

5:02

said I. Most familiar with most

5:05

of the. Most of

5:07

the ways of thinking so whether it was gonna grab

5:09

were whether it was factory.

5:12

summarizes actors or the government

5:14

was involved in staging it or

5:18

Grand conspiracy nonsense where everyone

5:21

including the town community law enforcement

5:23

every government agency everyone some house

5:25

part of scripted events I.

5:28

was familiar with all these ideas so

5:30

if it starts

5:30

This is one thing that you can just go on, but

5:33

this was individual people that would have

5:35

to coordinate across. Ran out

5:37

on was very different, he and.

5:40

So rapidly changing, the jury had to

5:43

think back to a world of when I

5:45

was like and twenty ten. People

5:47

were posting a lot more. Images

5:50

on is for people were not

5:52

making their friends list private

5:55

people. were are much less guard

5:57

it That's really evolved

5:59

in the last. The years and. I

6:03

think was transporting with the and

6:05

from where show it's house the

6:07

focus think prior to that was mostly

6:10

or people instrument and large

6:12

figures and. somehow

6:16

This transformed into now.

6:19

Microscope who victims

6:21

putting a microscope to family members

6:24

focusing, in on anyone. who

6:27

dared to an interview after this tragedy

6:29

taking part and

6:32

ah that was response he

6:34

almost like dramatic response but

6:37

not have compassion or sympathy

6:40

We have.

6:41

Did you get a sense of who these people were

6:44

and what led them to believe and kind of move

6:46

up against you?

6:48

This wasn't a mix of

6:50

variety of people you. You

6:52

had to people who and always. Were

6:54

anti government didn't trust anything?

6:57

And then you have lot of

6:59

people who. Where on?

7:03

The young parents, young mothers with children.

7:06

To that similar age, and this was just a. The

7:09

think. The house. Six

7:12

and seven year olds and murdered

7:15

so there were people who get caught up

7:17

in this day. then

7:20

Decided they were all since and investigators

7:23

and than the. Dig

7:25

through people's sense of accounts

7:28

and ah.

7:30

Out the window open accounts and

7:32

anything they could find related to a person

7:34

and gathering, all this information,

7:37

using the same way of thinking.

7:40

of from finding coincidences

7:43

in random things that make sense to

7:45

that paranoid way of thinking and constructing

7:48

old enough Earlier, elaborate

7:51

series.

7:51

Are you have to say I appreciate a charitable

7:54

you're being to people who denied how?

7:56

Your son died and then on top of it

7:58

they're doing things to you and me. The new into of L

8:00

and I don't quite know what would do, but think would

8:03

not be. Can be measured, think.

8:05

There's would high or something. What happens

8:08

and put these it's citizen investigators,

8:10

sometimes think it works other times, think

8:12

it's like citizens surgery, the

8:14

would you understand what they sound appealing

8:16

or beliefs so fiercely be started to

8:19

engage correct with him?

8:22

Well I mean left it alone for and left alone

8:24

for but each year and. then early twenties

8:26

or team The kind

8:28

of jumped and I said owner able to see.

8:31

What happened, you know, because it really isn't saving

8:34

and? A

8:36

lot more camaraderie going on in their really

8:38

echoing each other's ideas and

8:41

and. they're getting pretty intense about it is

8:44

and then It was trying to

8:46

get monetized, people were. The

8:49

money to uncover the truth is. The

8:51

know. myself into

8:53

the mix and joined

8:56

a, closed Facebook group to talk

8:59

to some people make myself. available

9:02

and see what their response would be and

9:05

That's a real nice day. They

9:08

were. The kind

9:11

of intrigued by this tragedy. Their

9:13

response was anger and some. Nah,

9:17

compassion still part of what you.

9:18

It was put out real information like

9:20

medical examiner's report on that was just,

9:23

did you think it's a time that facts would change their

9:25

minds given how spun up they were?

9:27

I didn't think that and. change

9:31

my mind.

9:32

That's one thing the movies and talk about

9:35

enough because making. that

9:37

information available was quite significant

9:40

Because the only thing that people who were

9:42

very interested in this ah.

9:44

tragedy had Learn.

9:48

into supports the ON Connecticut

9:50

State Police report on the shooting have not

9:52

yet come out so,

9:55

they just have all of these This

9:58

reminded anomalies that they were digging. Early

10:00

combining and coming up with theories so

10:03

any. regular person they wanted to look

10:05

into this tragedy the first thing that they

10:07

would come across would be these

10:09

on youtube videos c

10:11

blogs and

10:14

You know, you know, that has

10:16

on people because you can take regular people

10:18

and seven from of the Earth is flat if they consuming

10:21

enough of that material. Then what?

10:23

happens young mothers who were scared

10:26

about this happening in their own life They

10:29

entertain the idea of

10:31

well. I don't need service

10:34

because if they have not happened there.

10:36

Good. Point so one of the things that happened

10:38

a when you're engaging with the conspiracists

10:40

and putting yourself out there, it doesn't make you target,

10:43

is eventually they started to Docs. You, they posted

10:45

your social security number or address online,

10:47

talk little bit about that because here you

10:49

are suffering terrible tragedy

10:52

and. Then you become a target.

10:54

You're so.

10:55

Then you become a target because I stand

10:57

in the way of them. Having

11:00

this? You know to

11:02

read. Thirty

11:04

were there just?

11:06

Attacking the memory of the children attending

11:08

memory families community and they're

11:10

just mocking everyone in the first having a great

11:12

time doing that and.

11:16

My work was really. Heading

11:19

down into what they were doing it,

11:21

It wasn't just the phone.

11:27

The teacher was given to me to point but not

11:29

as much as when his pants.

11:37

The approaching. the anniversary of

11:39

twenty four team they were large videos

11:42

Really. When honey

11:45

and turns in terms of.

11:47

Our minds about every single

11:49

family too. Sented

11:52

out with volunteers to

11:54

of reporters in one of those videos and

11:56

have every single one of those would he have taken down

11:59

and, The We're Hurting It's A

12:01

Blog. They use

12:04

my name. And that's when.

12:06

The real to the case and began.

12:09

Hi

12:11

median, see the same here.

12:17

That went to her favorite out to enjoy

12:19

a party is that is horrific descriptor,

12:22

but. Absolutely true of these goals, but

12:24

let's move on to Jones, who plays critical role in your

12:26

story, was the breaking point

12:28

that pushed you to file suit against him.

12:33

And it was the breaking point it just took a while

12:35

threaten to come together I have been

12:37

planning to. do all

12:39

this for some time

12:43

He was repeating things that were completely TV.

12:47

And I'm.

12:49

He targeted does he?

12:51

targeted my son Cynically

12:53

blogged about my son he targeted me he

12:56

spent a few days talking about me thought his

12:58

show on.

13:02

He. It means

13:05

that we're. The amplified

13:08

in repeated thousands of times. Over

13:11

the world. into the

13:13

day he can get removed. The

13:15

an example. There

13:18

was an instance when know as image appeared

13:20

in another tragedy and Ah

13:22

Pakistan.

13:24

And he titled an article

13:26

one to of his blogs on civil

13:29

wars in prison planet.

13:31

The title, any good victim to Michigan?

13:34

Oh and. that became

13:37

Another piece of cornerstone constant. The

13:40

key of. denial Wow

13:45

and, I. have and that

13:47

I am. early that

13:49

means or share thousands of times i think it's an understatement

13:51

him for worse had daily average of

13:54

nearly one point four million visits to it's website

13:56

and these videos posted by it's main you tube

13:58

and these things for dinner The announces

14:00

that date affirmed tubular and others

14:03

but, i'm going to play except that alex jones from a taped

14:06

deposition and his excuse

14:08

My myself of the almost like a fool

14:10

psychosis by the past right they

14:12

saw everything was staged you know

14:14

now or and White House things are states

14:17

saw guy as his as pundit

14:19

and someone doing opinions on

14:21

your my opinion some been wrongs

14:25

Rp.

14:27

Well, I know my reaction to that and can't say

14:29

it on spirits and podcast, but what was

14:31

your? Then.

14:37

Then he still you know playing the

14:39

part to. know

14:43

The understand his audience and.

14:46

The kind of bullshit. he could

14:48

see them Though

14:51

getting my opinions, that was sometimes wrong.

14:54

Oh, oops, I think that oop's right, it's

14:56

like the cruelest oops of all time,

14:59

but it's a note nonetheless.

15:01

My will, you still denies that he. "The

15:03

actually sent things", he has said.

15:06

Then you have any? The

15:09

insight into him as you met him. I

15:11

have not met and know. wanted

15:14

to meet him or you feel it. No,

15:16

no, not at all. Any

15:19

insight into why you think he's doing this just he

15:21

himself as a an? actor

15:24

Pretty much this is, he found

15:26

something that works since he created

15:28

a model. That

15:31

a lot of other people. Happy.

15:35

An eye on and he's been successful

15:37

doing it.

15:40

How do you feel about him? Quite

15:43

a different. Really.

15:47

Why different, it's an interesting selection

15:49

of a word. My

15:52

eyes. I'm fine. When

15:55

I needed to accomplish. And

15:57

now it's just. Then.

16:01

I'm doing anything he's always don't I really

16:03

know why eating put the brakes on

16:06

his lawsuits long time ago so

16:08

they must be benefiting him his hands

16:10

of media coverage and kind,

16:12

of. negative

16:16

Average that he enjoys war he does

16:19

certainly had, some I see

16:21

them as wife do if anyone's minor

16:23

with like, the wwf of

16:25

he thinks he's like one of the. villain you

16:27

know He just

16:30

acts on a persona. So

16:33

I kind of see an old picture.

16:35

of the after the thinks it is yeah

16:37

but

16:38

Apparently, take lack of sell to be doing that's

16:40

what it just of get other parents to join you in this

16:42

mission, the lawsuit specifically.

16:46

It was it, it took some time

16:49

I'm I spoke to a number of people.

16:52

The community. One

16:54

of the topic on Sunday. The

16:58

suit and, down

17:01

And I know it.

17:02

filed under law suits clear that

17:04

this against people who are oh.

17:06

really Actors

17:09

in know his denial and stirring

17:11

up trouble and are,

17:13

creating a lot of concerts Then.

17:16

People with just repeating. Published

17:21

or blogs, it were.

17:24

The country.

17:29

Some time, but finally once

17:31

I filed a lawsuit, I think so.

17:36

I didn't you didn't twenties and Jones was. guilty

17:38

and it's for defamation suit filed

17:40

by the parents of the Sandy Hook victims he

17:42

was all for in the sense that,

17:45

get you resolution

17:47

Then.

17:49

They did pretty well I had expected

17:51

that to happen the Texas case

17:53

which is the first place that was filed I,

17:56

think he was found guilty in October and.

17:59

ah

18:01

I will refer to the and as you went in

18:03

on supplying were possessed similar

18:05

question in my response was as.

18:08

far as i'm concerned i've already want Because

18:11

him admitting that.

18:13

We lied or had psychosis when he

18:15

denied this. On

18:18

and I needed to hear in terms of.

18:20

Him completely changing

18:23

his mind.

18:25

Yeah, he didn't probably privately and

18:27

buddy getting on a technicality, do you think the case

18:30

will be preventative in this war against misinformation,

18:32

you think it's landmark case in that regard?

18:36

The digital important case because it shows

18:38

people who are targeting this way or victims

18:41

that.

18:42

There are remedies for it and

18:44

going to the courts 1/2,

18:47

because there's really nothing else you can do in.

18:49

This is

18:52

there are things that you can do on the internet. if

18:55

you did them in real life. There

18:58

are laws to summary real life

19:00

by on the Internet it's unregulated

19:03

speech.

19:11

We'll be back in a minute.

19:14

If you like this interview and wanna hear others follow

19:16

us on your favorite podcast that is

19:19

able to catch up on sway episodes you may

19:21

have missed like my conversation with

19:23

France is how games and you get new ones

19:25

delivered directly to you more.

19:27

with lenny The new after the brain.

19:39

There. Any when you hold more accountable

19:41

was it the platforms or someone like

19:43

Alex Jones, who manipulated the platform's studies

19:46

believers do gets sucked and that's really quite

19:48

astonishing, am I don't? Find them blameless

19:51

in any way, with did you pick

19:53

one group that you thought was most

19:55

problematic? Though.

19:58

Alex Jones, absolutely.

20:00

Amplify this more than

20:02

any one single individual.

20:05

There were, of course, the people who with content

20:07

creators and he was repeating what

20:09

they were saying that they were. Something

20:12

that were unique to his own creation

20:14

she was contributing to the Hawks

20:17

theories as well and,

20:19

he was hosting people on his fellow

20:21

and he was saying Creating

20:24

you this. Heroes

20:27

for them. This denial

20:29

world the. I

20:32

can absolutely. I'd

20:34

have any to the individual. The platforms

20:37

literally her to be. For

20:39

amplifying and the bringing

20:42

this information to, people.

20:45

when my producer name as you

20:47

on the phone

20:47

How platforms initially reacted, you

20:49

said they responded like they were run by

20:51

Alex Jones. The new find

20:53

that.

20:55

The focus for all of these platforms

20:58

is growth and expansion. They

21:00

really don't want to deal with clean up. And

21:02

all and ah. it

21:05

for as long as they can avoid having to do that

21:07

The dude. The medallist Jones

21:10

run rampant to just didn't wanna sex. There

21:13

were not interested.

21:15

I. Had a couple runs around the block with Mark Zuckerberg

21:17

about this, but let's talk about the individual

21:19

sides stopped better, you cross paths

21:21

with each of them in your quest to. Get information

21:23

or have misinformation taken down and

21:25

it from lack of better thing I want you to give

21:28

them a grade A to ask, solace or with

21:30

WordPress, I know. Matt Mullan leg pretty well

21:33

very, much doesn't want to necessarily.

21:36

he would use the term censor i would say at

21:38

it This information the.

21:40

wordpress how do you think they behaved

21:42

and talk and little bit about your interaction with them Well,

21:46

then you all.

21:48

You know, s.

21:50

Somewhere around me,

21:52

of twenty six t. and

21:54

at that point Where

21:56

price gets an A? handled

21:58

it quickly. Then,

22:01

of course, it.

22:03

You know shaming them publicly said

22:05

that have you,

22:08

noticed could buy maps. and what

22:10

is he said he

22:13

I'm free.

22:16

Got a message saying "Let's talk or is

22:18

it in the end of from there

22:20

was?" They will be nervous

22:23

and of shaming you're right. You

22:26

know, we apologise let's make this right

22:28

and then from there. It

22:30

was change in terms of service.

22:33

The and a lot of content. Then. What

22:39

about their great and then what was your interaction

22:42

with them?

22:42

My

22:45

interaction with Twitter was ah.

22:48

There are a little interaction Twitter tends

22:50

to pay. attention to

22:52

material the needs to be taken

22:54

down Right around the time

22:56

when the eat.

22:58

You. Know an argument with is being

23:00

worked on so as, being

23:02

worked on feel recounts Twitter and as

23:04

questions and then suddenly Twitter will tend

23:07

to say that I reported

23:09

months. Ago so that's an F minus it's worse

23:12

than enough mindset Twitter is probably

23:14

the worst and, you can

23:16

even submit a court. order because

23:18

there's no pathway to the Did

23:21

you ever talk with Jack Dorsey, the CEO?

23:24

I did not on. Wouldn't

23:27

really gets to her St. Louis.

23:29

Yeah, I was sending them says during

23:31

that time and I'm like I'm not your.

23:33

Help desk, okay, Facebook have.

23:36

I just went and few more things about Twitter, go

23:39

ahead it.

23:40

I'm always you Twitter as really the worst of

23:42

the worse than only because and we

23:45

think about social media platforms.

23:47

The worst part of you to really

23:50

is the comments section.

23:52

Twitter is just the comments section

23:54

yeah so that interest starts off

23:56

being the. worst and it allows for an

23:58

anonymous users so it Really

24:00

is that type of space the?

24:03

girl came with removing images

24:05

for copyright Not

24:07

very quickly took to find but I think

24:09

that, comes back to the volume. of

24:12

don't know how he tweets are posted

24:15

on are daily basis

24:18

And it's like a million tweets every.

24:22

So.

24:23

There's really no way human matters

24:25

to address and, it's been

24:27

forty two percent. is no

24:29

way to do that guy had business

24:32

yeah

24:32

In any, could I mean I'm

24:35

coming to the humanly possible try not to

24:37

take an iron of people to deal with?

24:40

Oh, you.

24:41

The athletes architected a system that's impossible

24:44

to Monterey that's really the problems

24:47

and designed by people who I always say have

24:49

never been on save the day in their lives so.

24:51

less than ask for twitter facebook

24:55

So people suffers from the same

24:57

exact problem somewhere

24:59

they have build something. That.

25:02

Has a population of?

25:05

The cyber world of four billion people

25:08

or. more and They

25:11

won't allow an outside police force

25:13

and room or anything really so it,

25:15

it's even worse how can they have a human

25:18

moderators to address this information

25:20

and so Up until.

25:23

Twenty sixteen. This

25:26

isn't half as well and then since

25:28

then.

25:30

Between that time period and close with

25:32

day removed quite a bit of contact

25:34

so. My from enough

25:36

to. Two

25:39

and hey. It removing

25:41

an entire group on Facebook. The

25:44

volume vitriolic it's it disappears

25:47

is phenomenal, removing

25:49

t.

25:50

The user account it's existed for

25:52

decades everything, disappears

25:54

reading disappears person commented person everything that has

25:56

been we share that for supposed to school disappear

25:59

So. A lot

26:01

of this. Sir. The

26:05

underworld. Then.

26:07

Had an opportunity to grow because

26:09

Facebook ignored it, I would.

26:10

Great. An interesting the I had an inch a

26:12

very famous interview them in two thousand and eighteen

26:15

where we started off talking about Alex Jones

26:17

and I, said to mark you're. Gonna be

26:19

taking them off it's just matter of time and you're

26:21

creating problem by letting him grow

26:23

as was precisely my issue, that

26:25

one of the things that. things remember thinking

26:28

was that he doesn't understand what's happening

26:30

in that time, it takes him to decide

26:32

or grow up or do something

26:35

of these people get enormous growth

26:37

during that. period in

26:39

my two thousand and eighteen interview he said eighteen

26:42

think going to have someone has victim

26:44

of sandy hook and telling them they know you're liar

26:46

that is harassment and we will actually take

26:48

that down Good night at

26:51

that time, I. They started to do that

26:53

the two thousand and eighteen.

26:55

They did they added a new policy

26:57

and they had been repressing your

26:59

bullying and harassment policy seen.

27:02

that point onward so

27:04

The thing going to change my started

27:06

messing with of as they headed this new way of

27:08

reporting. You know and

27:11

which was really something that I've been asking for

27:13

coming back to twenty fifteen to meet

27:16

with, them is a tragedy protected class. some

27:18

of the first wave of the started

27:21

from see mr Oh,

27:24

my.

27:24

Really put this topic at a different

27:27

level, I think at that point was. That

27:30

this entire. He'd be seen.

27:33

That already existed on his books. Four

27:38

five. years Well, then

27:40

hard at it.

27:42

The younger users who are familiar with social

27:44

media which was after the

27:47

shooting, in florida and did you can't

27:49

it so sorry that that's when they really

27:51

couldn't you know ignore this anymore

27:54

That anyone high level of the company contact

27:56

you given? Active you are, I

27:58

can't. On on.

28:01

Meetings with people from Facebook, but

28:03

I don't know their level and the company,

28:06

but isn't it?

28:10

Because it's just it. has

28:12

it

28:16

The don't mind. Yeah,

28:19

I think our tiny, that is certainly true,

28:22

the richest people in the world always think that the. I'm

28:25

I'm. YouTube and Google finally.

28:27

so,

28:30

Google

28:31

search began looking at

28:33

the search results that they were giving people

28:35

and started

28:37

to McPhee.

28:40

hope for three for less authoritative

28:42

The you tube as well you, too early

28:45

did the most amount of work This

28:47

material. Why do you imagine

28:49

they did? Ah. Because

28:52

of the amount of material that was removed in

28:54

the way that they interacted with me.

28:57

In quite, organized and they

28:59

were whole lot of different departments

29:01

that handle, different areas

29:04

and they have a lot of. platform

29:06

it's not just youtube it's not just google search

29:09

once they became aware of this and

29:11

The started to work towards the and

29:14

a modified dinner on. bullying

29:16

and harassment policies

29:18

He added something to they're pulling

29:20

terms of service or along the lines of

29:24

anything, real. real

29:26

world events and Are

29:29

you doing? The next of kin.

29:32

Which was no way. "Adapting

29:34

to my request, which was making it comes to

29:37

protect the class"

29:38

I'm. What's interesting and two thousand and seventeen

29:41

retrace article you're talking about the by relative

29:43

hoaxes and you said code is like a brush fire

29:45

that needs to be contained now because.

29:47

It was ignored, it's not on the edge, it's dead

29:49

center, it's burned into the capital.

29:52

Well,

29:54

and I mean it.

29:57

Unfortunately.

30:00

That which may have sounded like an

30:02

exaggeration. When I said

30:04

it. We years

30:06

later realized that it isn't and it's quite unfortunate

30:08

so that. was the trajectory

30:11

that we were on i mean it no one's

30:14

The sooner if needed to be

30:17

redirected, unsafe It

30:19

was just like to hear. that Hi.

30:23

Like in it so.

30:25

Do you think there are solutions to

30:27

this given how far it's gone if they

30:29

were going to do this to kids who are murdered then?

30:32

at the capitol

30:33

With the election, do you see a solution,

30:36

misinformation, it till my producer we needed

30:38

three letter enforcement agency, for

30:40

example?

30:41

We do, we absolutely need to because

30:44

things that happen on the Internet.

30:46

Regular law enforcement considers

30:49

it to be really low level

30:51

annoyances and they'll tell you to

30:53

turn off your phone or turn off your computer or

30:55

turn off your screen as if that

30:57

can you no make that go

30:59

away? we're prevent other

31:01

people from tagging you in material and

31:04

it's such a, you do minor stuff in there

31:06

paying but it's not minor

31:08

stuff, who for people whose lives get

31:10

ruined with doxing revenge porn.

31:12

These are tremendous.

31:14

Tremendous violations of

31:17

people's rights. And again, if someone were to

31:19

do that, you don't stand outside your

31:21

home with a, with a billboard and

31:25

say things about you, there

31:26

are Avenues where you can get help

31:28

for. You could have law enforcement help

31:32

No such thing, a neutral.

31:35

When you think about it?

31:36

The thing's so a three letter enforcement agency

31:39

like the Department of Defense.

31:42

On a partner of Internet safety.

31:45

That's got nothing and good name for it's what

31:47

about stripping away immunity under Section Two thirty

31:50

because I think one of the ways you focus

31:52

on this is liability that

31:54

they have some liability for their sloppy

31:57

management that the system.

32:00

I've always said that regulation

32:02

is inevitable and it.

32:05

needs to be done i think that No, that's

32:07

going to take a while to happen, but.

32:09

Those are to me I can would happen overnight.

32:12

And then let's figure it out from there and

32:15

it'll be. painful along

32:17

the way but The needs to be

32:19

done ten years. Then

32:22

video. Yeah,

32:24

it's a protein that south. Hello.

32:29

It's not just send you home.

32:32

There have been. The

32:34

many other. They have

32:36

occurred because of misinformation online

32:39

that. champions on longer

32:41

What do you say the legislators that I to started

32:44

to blame them at this point and Alex Jones

32:46

is gonna be our students in the he will take

32:48

advantage of all their

32:50

will? take advantage of these techsystems as long as

32:52

they're sloppy and regulators

32:54

do nothing he would he say to regulators

32:56

when you speak to them

32:58

I think the problem is they don't fully

33:00

understand the technology.

33:03

That and twenty years so I've had some

33:05

time. Perhaps it

33:07

would probably need. More

33:09

younger people and government. To

33:12

deal with his, but I was under the impression

33:15

that. If wanted.

33:17

to come to take over They want

33:20

to focus on growth and expansion and

33:22

you. know and breaking since they

33:25

don't want to deal with the clean up in the rather Do

33:27

not think. i'm on Then.

33:31

Know how to do it, just chat.

33:33

I'm is there any law that you think if you can

33:36

wave? a wand and create one what

33:38

would you are law look like what would the

33:41

Money posner law or maybe that know

33:43

I saw a guy.

33:46

Because I'm, ready

33:48

answer for that The

33:51

on. Then. The

33:53

same way that laws protect

33:56

our civil rights in the real world.

33:59

This is on the Internet

34:01

really has to and. Now.

34:06

That seems like Facebook.

34:08

We want to go into a more elaborate

34:11

complex, the virtual world. Where?

34:14

The potential for. Human

34:16

injury is probably for grade.

34:20

I really appreciate speaking to me because

34:23

know your life has been defined by this tragedy

34:25

and the aftermath is. this

34:27

your life's work and will always

34:29

be

34:31

It and it has been and continues

34:34

to be and. The

34:36

contacted by a lot of people for help.

34:39

You say that you know you,

34:41

don't want to be a help desk for. these

34:45

companies

34:45

No, I shouldn't be adding more ones didn't one

34:47

I'd be happy to be, but they should be doing

34:49

the work they shouldn't have to rely

34:52

on me yelling at them. That's

34:55

kind of a. Some

34:57

of it's turned into that is. The

34:59

help desk and I don't want to be doing that.

35:02

Yeah it's not your job you're not being paid

35:04

their own rich you, know

35:06

what mean which is interesting. am

35:08

i want to ask you because you have to other kids

35:10

know his siblings how are they doing

35:12

I

35:16

could you doing well, I. do

35:19

we will. If you give them

35:21

the A. The money. Then.

35:27

In history.

35:29

When they came from so they.

35:32

didn't only lose

35:35

A brother in the tragedy they,

35:37

were just a few feet away from

35:39

where the shooting happened so I've often

35:42

said that I could have lost three children that

35:44

morning. so They

35:47

are also survivors of the shooting. Hundreds

35:50

percent, he should have lost no children.

35:52

And and the fact that you have to keep reliving

35:54

it because of the these. platforms

35:57

and horrible people like

35:59

alex jones The is really.

36:02

Even more of a tragedy. Anyway,

36:05

he has many police or thing. Am. I to thank you

36:07

for all your work, will still keeping

36:09

the help desk as do, you actually enjoy yelling at these

36:11

tech company it's a pleasure, especially

36:14

when. It comes to big issues like this,

36:16

insert mosque and shocked

36:18

by their lack of interest in A.

36:21

real issues and they're hiding behind Important

36:24

concept free speech and, using

36:27

it to or on and

36:31

I don't know what else to say.

36:45

Why is the production of New York Times opinion

36:48

is? headed by name a rather like

36:51

check as check can take notes

36:53

and night and

36:55

But original music by Isaac James mixing

36:57

by. The new hero and Pearl Harbor rank

37:00

and sec.

37:00

The night live and Claire and very large

37:02

number of. thanks to shannon

37:04

buster christian and tina

37:07

fabulous Our senior

37:09

editor for Sway his knee morava and

37:11

our executive producer of New York Times opinion

37:13

audio is Irene the Gucci if.

37:16

you're in a podcast app already you know how to

37:18

get

37:18

You high-pass the follow this one

37:21

if. you're listening

37:21

On the Times website and want to get each new

37:23

ever since way delivered to you, download

37:25

any podcast app. Search for Sway

37:28

and follow the show. We released ever.

37:30

Free Monday and Thursday. The thanks for

37:32

listening. In Alex Jones. It

37:34

should be ashamed if you're saying.