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The.

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Welcome. To hog talk on the BBC

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World Service with me, Stephen Sack of my

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guest today has over the past year

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or so found herself in the eye

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of a particularly ferocious. Cultural

0:25

Storm kathleen Stock

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is an academic philosophers for the past

0:29

eighteen years, up until last October,

0:32

professional home once the University

0:34

of Sussex, but she quit

0:36

her post following monks. Of turmoil

0:39

on campus, which saw her abused,

0:41

accused and condemned by

0:44

some fellow writers and academics,

0:46

the reason kind of thing Stocks

0:48

opinion expressed trenchantly in

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her book material goals

0:53

that. Sex is immutable:

0:55

We humans cannot change our

0:57

sex and therefore those people who

0:59

choose to transition away from the sexual

1:01

category that born into living

1:04

and what she terms and. immersive

1:06

action. Then. Many in the transgender

1:09

community and beyond that has

1:11

been perceived as denial of that basic

1:13

rights and identity she was

1:15

accused of sans phobia at

1:17

the University of Sussex. she faced barrage

1:20

of criticism and abuse from outrage

1:22

students, eventually see

1:24

resigned, saying the stress was

1:26

unbearable, her experience as

1:28

much about the vitriol and

1:31

bad blood which has come to. Define the debate

1:33

about sex, gender and identity,

1:35

it's so is there any hope of finding

1:38

common ground month, kathleen

1:40

Stock joins me now, welcome

1:42

to handle that I want to begin?

1:44

If may by asking you about what happened

1:47

to you last year after

1:49

eighteen years at the University

1:51

of Sussex, you walked

1:54

away from your academic posts

1:56

now, just wonder. Having had a few months

1:58

to reflect on it, whether you are still. Your,

2:00

you did the right thing.

2:02

Yeah, I'm too sure I did the right thing

2:05

because so the situation

2:07

was pretty intolerable for

2:09

me at the time that

2:11

was this big campaign against me. Hi.

2:14

You know how many students that it at one point

2:17

in there was over hundreds on campus

2:19

demonstrating against me during the universe

2:21

yes and day A. blessing of flares

2:23

the rice and graffiti the with posters

2:26

everywhere with my name was some pretty vile abuse

2:28

it was intense arm and

2:30

very unpleasant and in and not

2:32

an environment of his see the things i want

2:34

to do when teach in research

2:36

and live and normal life say it was impossible for

2:38

me to carry on there and i'm the

2:41

union that defense reps and lectures

2:44

came out basically in favor of the protesters

2:46

which meant that the my colleagues have agreed

2:49

with what was happening to me and We'll

2:51

take pretty.

2:52

Difficult to put up with,

2:54

so I decided to leave and

3:05

you didn't feel that you could. Bear

3:08

to continue the fight, or suppose.

3:10

The preferred the culmination.

3:12

Quite a long process and

3:14

it had been really unpleasant to out there for several

3:17

years so.

3:19

Yeah I was a pretty worn down by

3:21

it and I just you

3:23

don't know I'm not Martha say guy doesn't tend

3:25

to be one and don't want to stay

3:27

with somewhere weren't the centerpiece a I,

3:30

think of it's nice you are trained

3:32

philosopher philosophers. have

3:34

lot of your things and many people

3:36

watching and listening might wonder why was

3:39

philosopher getting so deeply engaged

3:41

in his use of sexual

3:44

gender identity and on the hold

3:47

sort of nature of womanhood if i can put

3:49

it that way little because the questions

3:51

about sex and gender and womanhood a deeply

3:53

philosophical their about who we

3:55

are the earth that ethical as well

3:57

because it's about how we

4:00

It may policies and laws and whose

4:02

interests we listen to and his we don't listen

4:04

to and.

4:05

We should listen to and. say these

4:07

of kids meat and drink to the average

4:09

full of first sit the to be able

4:11

to talk about this of course what we know

4:14

in reality is people very frightened to class

4:16

including academic because as the toxicity

4:18

around toxicity by it mean

4:20

i it's obvious to me that these the status of cliches

4:23

and a bunch of philosophers being

4:25

we'll then

4:26

Right? And people I judith Butler and michel foucault

4:29

big cigarettes from the academic well the thing

4:31

will then to justify quite of us policy

4:33

decisions say that, makes

4:35

it clear that. Are clear preference take the pointed

4:38

it is directly relevant to issues

4:40

facing philosophers but, if

4:42

I'm not wrong, your core beliefs

4:44

in this area can be boiled down to. Something

4:47

fairly simple both drawn from your

4:49

boat material goals and also your blog

4:51

posts you. believe that

4:53

humans are born in male

4:55

and female form it's straightforward

4:58

it's binary and that humans

5:01

The hundred. Change

5:03

their.

5:04

The actual reality is

5:06

that affair summation of the core of

5:08

what your messages that contains

5:10

their sex, yes, and I'm.

5:14

The issue about whether sex is fine, real,

5:16

not yes, I think in as in.

5:18

In. The sense in which biology at binary

5:20

then clearly human sex in binary,

5:23

like ninety nine point, eight percent of us

5:25

are completely unambiguously in one, thanks

5:27

for the other and that. , small

5:29

amounts ambiguity that are consistent with that being

5:31

a binary nature that see any kind of binary with

5:34

up again so to biology basically

5:36

always include variation now that.

5:39

You can't change thanks to my views although you present

5:41

day in the run up to this is controversial

5:43

actually might use very, often

5:45

controversial to most. people were

5:48

not on controversial to people who

5:51

have exams gendered on have murder

5:53

or from suits community of interest

5:56

not just have some transgendered people themselves

5:58

but also supporters max

6:00

Is to very much campaign with

6:02

them who believe that your message

6:04

and again I hope I'm not being too simplistic

6:06

but your message that? No

6:09

trans woman is is. Really

6:11

literally. Then. Woman and

6:13

know Trans Man is literally a man

6:15

that message to many people is

6:17

deeply upsetting and indeed offensive

6:20

yes it, is I'm

6:23

sorry about that but it is. But

6:25

I will say would like to respect little bit there that descending

6:27

on the case at all, trans people disagree with me because

6:29

lots of junk, not a while, while know. Any better me

6:31

I didn't say that, make

6:34

it clear that because think often this

6:36

can get it is presented

6:38

as a fight between the feminists

6:40

and the trans people. In actually that's not the case

6:42

tool as far as I can, see my

6:45

tongue people know what sex they are all because

6:47

they wouldn't be trying to say distances they

6:49

said they know that they have transitioned

6:52

smokers it's about time says that isn't

6:54

as by know what sex they were

6:56

what their identity was and

6:59

they want to change it will sex

7:01

and identity not the same things and i

7:03

think things honestly think mean honestly it

7:05

but it's not just be rhetorical think most trans people

7:07

know what sex they are They

7:09

could fit in. Then. Do

7:11

with the chromosomes annual sales

7:13

and this of and said, Cena

7:16

Taylor that you were born with and the reproductive

7:18

role that you have and you can

7:20

artificially change those. Things, but

7:23

you haven't changed your basic, state I'm

7:25

sorry such assessing to hear, but I mean it's of know but

7:27

the same as a question of what that actually.

7:30

Means you know there's phrase that sort of

7:32

your critics of years of Robin White saluting

7:34

barristers, his determines

7:36

woman says he says you're

7:39

talking about as talking Form of biological essentially

7:41

isn't months the phrase uses misses it. doesn't

7:44

even begin to meet the

7:46

reality of what life is full

7:48

for those living as transgender

7:50

individuals i mean that so

7:53

grandstanding phrase that essentially

7:55

some can mean different things philosophically

7:58

i'm certainly not saying that the most and

8:00

Certain thing about say me is that I am a

8:02

woman I'm simply and.

8:03

The thing that they were cast agrees that the world

8:05

gives us and the we need concepts full

8:08

and we it's not up to us

8:11

what is cassock resolve and I don't

8:13

think it's in the interests of women and children

8:16

to.

8:16

The canned across. all the

8:18

maintenance that males can become

8:21

them in because that has no consequences

8:24

and senses of" The food.

8:26

The new faces, when for is anyone's

8:28

resources, says this isn't just not fact argument

8:31

suit or is definitely not abstract, you

8:33

are, in essence, saying that women's rights

8:35

do not know some women's rights do not

8:37

extend to transgendered women.

8:40

I I'm saying that that's not me being mean

8:42

it's just a.

8:43

That not all Vienna inches have to be

8:45

separate out different groups and nose and

8:47

uncertainties for France people's rights.

8:50

I'm just saying that they're not the same.

8:51

Women's rights are not for a minute trying

8:53

to suggest you're being mean I'm trying to get to the heart

8:56

of of. what you believe because again

8:58

for problematic for problematic lot of trans

9:00

people is your notion that while

9:02

they fully believe

9:05

in the identity that they project to the world

9:07

your same as i understand it

9:09

That it is a former fiction your views

9:11

this phrase immersive fiction

9:14

which, to my it makes it seem

9:16

like you're saying that sounds gendered people are

9:18

living some sort of alive

9:20

No. I've seen on my former

9:22

work in philosophy was mostly in six

9:24

since, like, I feel pretty confident in saying

9:26

this a difference when immersing yourself

9:29

imaginatively and story which. You know,

9:31

is this is six and is not true and

9:33

know it's not true, but not true is not the same

9:35

as lie I mean as we need to.

9:37

Be a bit more subtle about think since and that,

9:40

if you know to the cinema or immerse yourself in

9:42

fantastically Griffin film, you're

9:44

not in any under any illusion that.

9:46

It's real I'm already she may

9:48

guns are losing for that moment, but you're certainly not

9:50

committed to that forever other thoughts

9:52

are you don't believe it put your so

9:55

if you. Would into the shoes of transgendered

9:59

individual? How do you think I?

10:01

What you've just said would sound to

10:03

them.

10:04

I have put it to many trans people, discuss

10:06

it with some and some people on a

10:08

monolith, say, "I think we need to move away from

10:10

the idea that just because I took one person"

10:13

The on this, it would represent all of no. For

10:15

some people find it very offensive,

10:17

some people say absolutely this

10:20

is. Exactly how understand myself

10:22

say they're arranges responses

10:24

here, but think it's worth saying

10:26

that this is we're not having this discussion for it's own

10:28

sake we're having it because.

10:31

Okay, to petition the you're pressing on me that we

10:34

absolutely take these statements at face value

10:36

causes the loss of problem with practically speaking

10:39

for women for children and for trans

10:41

people themselves. Say

10:43

it and.

10:44

Don't you remember that context because

10:46

when you put it like you're putting a makes it sound

10:48

like it's just about words, but it's.

10:50

Just what, what are these problems

10:52

these practical problems that you allude

10:54

to? The the main targets

10:57

of. The book, High Road.

10:58

The about the idea that your gender

11:00

identity, which is that supposed to be

11:02

a feeling, is not necessarily connected

11:04

to surgery.

11:05

The or hormones or presentation,

11:07

even it's you're in a feeling of whether you're Male

11:10

female or neither, and it may know.

11:12

Has been to outward fact the.

11:14

idea that coming through arm

11:16

Policymakers in the UK at the moment and

11:19

international is the is that feeling

11:21

this insight as he?

11:22

He go to a particular faced

11:25

woman's changing room if you feel of it like

11:27

woman or. i'm woman sports

11:29

team if you feel like woman an

11:31

object describes this is really important

11:34

as the uk has been ah

11:36

considering changing the law to

11:38

have make much easier quote unquote

11:40

self identification and

11:42

also to open up some spaces which

11:44

have not been opened up thus far to transgender

11:47

people protecting the torment transcended women's

11:50

to open spaces up whether it be ah

11:52

havens refugees from domestic abuse

11:54

whether be wins prisons not other areas

11:57

it's an active debate in the uk some countries have already

11:59

gone much The other, you know, many South American

12:01

countries, Denmark, New Zealand, gone

12:04

much further than the UK has said.

12:06

Then you also need to emphasize there is when

12:08

you say transcended individuals" we're not talking

12:10

about this, this is a classic traditional

12:12

idea.

12:13

Then. Transsexual he's had surgery,

12:15

he may be taking hormones, is altered, their appearance,

12:17

we took a mess fully intact male

12:20

people who have had no

12:22

medical intervention or not or significant

12:24

difference. In your view legally speaking

12:26

between somebody who perhaps as had genital.

12:29

major genital surgery reconstructive

12:32

surgery reconstructive somebody who just identifies

12:35

ah as ah woman

12:37

The having been born in the biologically

12:40

male but. has not

12:42

had any hormonal or surgical

12:44

intervention your son was a fundamental difference between

12:46

the two the had new legal defense team that

12:48

You don't need surgery to get to

12:51

self-identify, not even

12:53

to get to gender recognition certificate in this country,

12:55

but I'm saying that as a practical

12:57

because you

12:59

asked me what the problem is why I never have a range

13:01

of problems that we focus on. I'm spaces

13:04

where women.

13:05

And draft of, unable to sexual

13:07

assault and sexual assault by males

13:10

is a problem, of for

13:12

women in their space is somebody who has had

13:14

absolutely no physical alteration

13:16

who looks mail and we are hardwired

13:19

pretty much to be up to six people by sites

13:21

like anywhere Mean we have

13:24

a. male in those spaces

13:26

When the policy say yes, you may be that, and

13:28

any male can be in its basis because they

13:30

could all say. I have an identity

13:33

that is.

13:33

The woman said: "We have at the moment

13:35

in Britain we have males in women's prisons purely

13:38

on the basis of self, I'd not

13:40

because they legally changed their sex, not

13:42

because they had hormones or surgery, so

13:45

any male effectively can say.

13:47

The help if I didn't teach, and that causes

13:49

a mess. The problem in terms of. Reducing

13:51

safeguarding for women who are vulnerable to sexual

13:54

assault, I understand the

13:56

point in theory, but in practice

13:58

is really.

14:00

Much. Of a problem, look at countries have gone

14:02

much further down the track than we have look at studies

14:04

from the United States, for example, where, for example,

14:07

in Massachusetts, their out.

14:09

Public accommodation laws that have embraced

14:12

and gender identity protection and that

14:14

the studies from Twenty Eighteen on suggests

14:16

that fears of increase safety and privacy

14:19

violation as result of nondiscrimination.

14:21

Laws are not. The empirically

14:23

grounded in this, I mean, for start.

14:26

They have to look at the studies and

14:28

quite often when people say very blithely

14:30

about of the country though they had so fighting

14:32

for ages and as the no problems it turns out people

14:35

haven't been looking all they haven't been asking women

14:37

but. in this country for instance if

14:40

you take males in the females

14:42

has an estate between estate

14:44

twenty sixteen and twenty nineteen has been

14:46

seven sexual assault on women if

14:48

you take the percentage of sex offender

14:50

The much the trying population in prisons it's

14:52

fifty eight percent. That is

14:55

that the recent figure home, as

14:57

opposed to sixteen percent for the general

14:59

population in prison, is so that suggests

15:01

that, of course, if you're not a predator.

15:04

The new venue transition you won't probably

15:06

be a predator after I mean people characters

15:08

so change, but if you are oppressed.

15:11

And you say you are a woman you'll still be predator

15:13

after with so the idea that the town's population

15:15

over time with them that trans women and we took

15:17

itself I'd d somehow miraculously

15:20

male patterns of sex the sending disappear

15:24

even. given increased opportunity is

15:26

the

15:26

The can I ask you about

15:29

another element of this new and very complex

15:31

set of issues and that's about

15:33

Tom Young people? The

15:35

and body dysphoria.

15:38

We we know that a, number of

15:40

children get this feeling

15:42

that they, can't identify

15:45

with the body that they've

15:47

been born with and they increasingly

15:50

it seems some of them over time want,.

15:52

to change and

15:55

nine the uk the law says that they can't

15:57

have hormonal treatment or sixteen like hormonal upsurge

16:00

into their at least eighteen

16:02

but. there is a very active debate about whether

16:04

it is wise to

16:07

go down this turns quiz children

16:10

you seem absolutely sure

16:12

that it is not wise

16:14

why The whole.

16:17

Children and adolescents are

16:19

working out.

16:20

A number of things sexual orientation

16:22

is one of them now. there's strong

16:25

evidence The in gender identity clinics

16:27

a large the.

16:28

The edge of the in patients or the our

16:30

patients are same sex attractive,

16:33

but they're interpreting the same sex attraction

16:35

as meaning there in the wrong body there

16:37

are also.

16:38

Hi'the sensitive, sensitive the autistic

16:41

children and gender identity clinic

16:43

I children with the streets of trauma

16:45

say that complex issue is around

16:48

gender dysphoria in children.

16:51

And we got to remember that if they take

16:53

a medical route, the effect

16:56

so.

16:57

Irreversible in many cases,

16:59

including effect from fertility on

17:02

a bone density on growth

17:04

spurts, so they can't be taken back

17:06

and in if they go into cross sex hormones. The

17:10

only have one.

17:11

The three that the uniform for girls and

17:13

is this has been a five thousand percent increase

17:16

in. the presentation of female children in these

17:18

clinic says it made me made problem for go

17:20

there is problem for boys

17:22

Go with facial hair, they may have double mastectomy,

17:24

they may remove their ovaries in thy

17:26

womb they can't go back, and

17:28

there isn't there it's regret amongst

17:30

at least. Some ignorant.

17:33

Then. proportion of people

17:35

were young adults now that they did this and

17:37

yet I just wonder if you are

17:40

looking, at all of the evidence and this quite

17:42

powerful evidence from" Number of studies in the UK

17:44

and particularly in the United States which suggests

17:47

that those young people children

17:50

who are offered treatment

17:53

for mono therapies in the first place, are

17:56

significantly better off in terms

17:58

off their mental health Those.

18:00

Other young people who say they would

18:03

have liked treatment but we're not

18:05

able to access it, the latest

18:07

study from Stanford University suggests

18:09

that in early adolescence cases

18:12

there is A. Two hundred and twenty two

18:14

percent difference: am more positive

18:16

result in terms of mental health for those

18:19

who get treatment. What

18:21

can say is that there are a number.

18:23

That is a minute science with that scientists

18:25

would never take one study and

18:27

the and, and also the empirical evidence

18:30

is highly disputes, it's I'm

18:32

in many cases to I know that in

18:34

the UK on there has been

18:36

studies that suggest that met them at your site.

18:39

He. Recently, and mental health safe a

18:41

lot more research needs to be done, we

18:43

also need long term for these because

18:45

you ask child year after they

18:48

started their journey. Whether the happier they may

18:50

well be happy about, you know, will they

18:52

be happy and five will they be happier, thirty

18:54

five that prefrontal cortex hasn't fully grown

18:56

in sixteen assists? As lot of things still

18:58

for happens on that they may not be

19:00

aware of, they may not fully understand.

19:02

The situation isn't very personal

19:04

to you because you've been quite frank about your

19:06

own journey. i mean you

19:09

came out as gays lesbians

19:11

quite late in life having been having a marriage and

19:13

having and chatting had two children

19:16

and youth since reflected on the fact that

19:18

it's actually as actually young person young did feel

19:20

quite uncomfortable with the norms

19:22

of femininity and of the colossus

19:24

women do see of inconsiderate with unknowns

19:26

of femininity because they're so that's

19:29

rigid and binary Probably men

19:31

feel uncomfortable, the know the muscular.

19:33

Then. Osbourne's what I'm wondering is what would you are

19:35

you somebody who feels that issue as a young

19:37

person you'd been offered the,

19:40

opportunity access to and

19:42

Samurai treatment another therapies. You might

19:44

have taken them, so I might have done, and particularly

19:46

say the rat, mean, I'm sure would have probably

19:48

club myself non binary in a bad

19:50

been. Available to me. i'm sure the

19:53

i'm would is up to that would resonate with

19:55

completely in way you see your own

19:57

life as sort of message that

19:59

actually

20:00

It would have been wrong for you to receive

20:02

treatment as an adolescent or of a

20:04

young adult, what would you like, can you be sure

20:07

about that?

20:08

In fact. that being said we're

20:10

to you got to be clear about what these drugs

20:13

mean like you know you'll permit new permanent

20:15

lead rented different you

20:17

may be in fertile in went to be known to have my

20:19

children you know off me a twelve

20:22

do i want children i'm sure i'm said no

20:24

said hadn't got hadn't clue what i'm talking about children

20:26

regret to choose violent a regret removing

20:29

their both why would the he's sister

20:31

said it said ridiculous that kind of

20:33

conversation because in every other to main

20:35

it would be absolutely obvious that

20:38

we wouldn't give these life

20:40

changing The medical alterations

20:42

to children.

20:43

Even if they said they wanted them because

20:46

they don't fully understand the situation

20:48

but in this particular area

20:51

adults a cheering song and,

20:53

that's the failure of adults it's not the save

20:55

the children as the failure of adults and the institutions

20:58

the should be protected The killed it. You

21:01

you I began by telling me you

21:03

never in many ways. I'm a moderate in this debate.

21:05

Can you see any Middle

21:07

Ground here? May

21:12

be unacceptable.

21:14

to the extremes and the, and, you know, I do get criticism.

21:17

From some feminists you think I'm

21:19

far too moderates?

21:21

and i should be much more hardline but

21:23

hardline think it

21:24

Then, if the claim is you have to

21:26

accept all the claims of transact

21:28

for them, you know trans women are literally

21:31

women in every context and trans.

21:33

The older know literally trying.

21:35

You know, no matter what age that emerges

21:38

than I'm afraid we just can't accept.

21:39

It just not practical

21:42

for the children for when. In an for trans

21:44

people, as I keep think this notion that in.

21:47

He of still facts about their biological

21:49

sex, restart the nigger to have still, they will have to say,

21:52

"I am male who I am female

21:54

in would get the right drugs and right treatment, so there's a range

21:57

of cases where sex is really

21:59

important and weekend"

22:00

The need to discuss it however I.

22:02

personally in fact

22:03

To. Go along with a kind of six and as I say

22:06

I'm in interpersonal contact sides have

22:08

preferred pronouns will, but will

22:10

try it went dead name minority

22:12

about. Pronouns: It's about the quality of

22:14

and about it right pronouns people are very

22:17

keen on, you have this thing for now, let me rephrase

22:19

that nonsense about wielding care more. About

22:22

fundamental rights and then we'll need

22:24

a medal for that while the to new year for

22:26

all of your respectful use

22:28

of pronouns you are not, according

22:31

transgender people full. Rights

22:33

full equality absolutely false right

22:36

say I'm full of this that me to the else they were what

22:38

what.

22:39

You mean by rights, right so fundamental human

22:41

rights not to be discriminated against I'm

22:43

in come.

22:44

Event in favor of that, the UK

22:46

has the equality act, gender reassignment

22:48

as a protected characteristic, I fundamentally

22:51

a good.

22:51

The with that he shouldn't ever be

22:53

discriminated against because you're turns out

22:55

work at home in the street.

22:58

That will find none of that Curtains

23:00

on saying trans military, women do

23:02

trans men. Allegedly went there, but

23:06

they can be detached how

23:12

to steal some time for

23:14

a bit of is true There was guy

23:16

in Paterson. comes as the doing

23:18

it From hurt or unbelievable.

23:20

Norman, like a perfect crime makes the most

23:22

of the president, was stories in the past.

23:25

And problem. of Market crashed

23:28

each

23:36

year without

23:38

problems. I

23:43

crime and history and culture

23:46

and whatever you want from he

23:49

ho

23:51

I was here with my heart of

23:54

investments such from the D.D.

23:56

he will Prairie.