0:02

(birds singing)

0:08

(gentle music) - From global design practise, Hassell,

0:11

this is Hassell Talks. Hi, everyone.

0:14

Welcome back to part two of our epic yarn

0:17

with First Nations consultant, cultural advisor,

0:19

and storyteller Kat Rodwell.

0:22

I'm Hannah Galloway and I would like to acknowledge

0:25

and respect the Noongar Whadjak people

0:27

and the Wadawarrung people the original custodians

0:30

of the land where we record this yarn.

0:33

We honour elders past, present, and emerging,

0:35

his knowledge and wisdom has and will ensure the continuation

0:39

of cultures and traditional practises.

0:42

So this is part two. If you haven't listened to part one,

0:45

I very much recommend that you do.

0:48

It's a really big conversation about listening

0:50

and about respect and connection, protocols, engagement,

0:55

loss, and the experience of voices

0:57

and country not being listened to for so long.

1:00

Kat also identified ways we can all help

1:03

to reduce the overload Traditional Owner groups

1:05

and consultants are feeling.

1:07

Do go back, check it out.

1:10

If you are already across it, this episode

1:12

is where we get into the questions

1:14

our listeners have sent in. There's some really great pointy stuff here,

1:19

so let's get back into it. (gentle music)

1:24

So we had a series of questions

1:27

that we asked through our social media channels

1:31

before this podcast and recording.

1:34

And one of the questions was, what do indigenous people

1:38

and communities really want to see in our built environment?

1:42

How do First Nations people want their culture, values,

1:46

art and knowledge to be translated into architecture?

1:49

- I'd say it's genuine, cultural, meaningful elements

1:54

within the built form and also elements

1:58

that contribute to everyone's well-being and health

2:01

because the buildings and structures become a part

2:05

of country, make them live as part of country

2:10

and we want them to represent community,

2:14

not the same for everything.

2:17

We don't fit into the same round or square hole.

2:21

We are all a different mob, as I said

2:23

so don't presume where one group says, oh, we are like this,

2:27

the other group's gonna be the same. Make sure it has a connection to country

2:34

and it builds curiosity.

2:38

It doesn't have to be in your face.

2:41

As I said, is it that you can see country,

2:44

smell country, feel country, touch country?

2:49

Those elements, that's all that has to happen. That's all they're asking for.

2:52

But mainly they want to know what are you doing on country.

2:55

What is it you are building on country?

2:57

How is country going to change?

3:00

Because once you change country, it affects us deeply.

3:04

And I always say plan out the meetings.

3:10

Probably, with me, I have probably four

3:12

with the Traditional Owner groups, the elders on each project because I think after that

3:18

it's too much overload.

3:21

But we always come with purpose as well to say what

3:25

is it that you really want to know so that we're not gonna take up too much of their time?

3:33

Ask questions while you are there. That's why you have facilitators like myself

3:36

to help that conversation and to draw out

3:38

what you need to know. But also you don't have to be that, I call the unclear,

3:44

as I said to you, unclear, everyone seems to think you've got to have all the bits and pieces,

3:48

all the fang-dangle, whistles, the kid in the candy store.

3:53

You don't. Listen to the stories of country.

3:59

It doesn't have to always have a massive yarning circle.

4:02

It doesn't always have to have a totem.

4:04

It doesn't always have to have an Aboriginal painting

4:08

or anything. People are still treading on eggshells

4:12

about when they're engaging us, what they can

4:16

and can't do and they're afraid to do,

4:18

especially with the design.

4:20

And I've had a really good conversation last week

4:23

with a couple of elders on where you call designing

4:27

with country is going?

4:29

- And as you say, every conversation and every situation

4:33

is gonna be unique so never presume that you can have one conversation

4:37

and reuse that somewhere else.

4:40

We cannot translate. We are asking for the privilege of hearing these stories

4:46

and showing respect for receiving the sharing

4:48

of stories and knowledge.

4:51

We come up with suggestions and we take those back

4:54

and we look for approval on the way

4:58

that we are translating and work through that together.

5:03

- Yeah, and you want to be able to understand it.

5:06

For us people sometimes what you may hear

5:10

from an elder traditional learner is not necessarily what they're saying.

5:15

This is sometimes where people like myself will come in

5:18

and say, well actually this is what the story

5:22

or the language is what is being shared with you.

5:25

It's like that great dividing cultures

5:28

and sometimes language.

5:30

Does what you build and the narrative,

5:33

is it easy to understand or is it so far out there they go,

5:37

that doesn't look like a Murnong? Murnong is not blue, Murnong's yellow.

5:42

We need to be able to understand it as well

5:44

so it gives respect to culture.

5:46

We're not asking for a lot really.

5:49

- So, should we do one of the pointy ones, Kat?

5:52

- Yeah, come on, let's do it, yep.

5:54

- This next question from online,

5:57

a question about the fetishization of indigenous culture.

6:02

The idea that simply because something is rooted in indigenous culture that is necessarily good,

6:08

better or sustainable.

6:10

How do we acknowledge a culturally safe way

6:14

that no culture has ever gotten everything right

6:18

nor ever will do? - Ooh, I'm looking at the word and really it's saying,

6:25

well an unreasonable amount of attention really given

6:27

to indigenous culture. And the thing that stands out in this question is I say,

6:33

well, who says we never got it right?

6:36

Just because it wasn't written down. We're oral traditionalists and some may argue,

6:42

well we did get it right.

6:45

We lived in harmony, we were sustainable farming,

6:49

sustainable living. We looked after country, we nourished country.

6:54

We only took what we had to until Captain Crook,

6:59

we call him, and fellow explorers came along

7:03

and came onto country and changed country.

7:07

And then things started to go pear-shaped,

7:11

as you would say it. That's me being nice.

7:17

We had law, we've lived in harmony, and today,

7:23

this day and age, maybe we are getting it wrong

7:25

as a culture in some ways

7:28

because we've lost our cultural ways,

7:30

cultural elements from the past that have disappeared.

7:36

We've lost being part of a community sometimes,

7:39

being misinformed, people make mistakes.

7:44

So, the question is how do we acknowledge it in a culturally safe way is well, we what together?

7:50

We work together and that's how we do it.

7:54

So, no one is perfect, there is no expert.

7:58

We look at the now and how we can resolve or solve things.

8:05

When we talk about our cultural practises,

8:09

a good example would be we lived off the land

8:15

and the waterways, which as I said were the giver of life.

8:18

These days now because of the loss of a lot

8:21

of that practise because culture has changed

8:25

we now go towards a bit of your way of agriculture.

8:29

- The next question is, what correlation can we bring

8:34

between agriculture and native bush agriculture?

8:41

- Country was our chemist. It was our hospital, it was our supermarket.

8:45

And it's really funny how it's all been revived.

8:48

This bush medicine, bush tucker is being used in a lot

8:51

of ways now and it's being used in ways

8:54

of being farmed agriculturally, which is interesting.

9:00

That's what I'm saying, the sea asparagus, which is on, I had a note here, Konnichiwa county

9:06

where it's very high in certain vitamins

9:12

and it does taste like asparagus,

9:16

it does and you need it in the saltwater areas.

9:21

And now we're starting to farm it Westernised ways.

9:26

An indigenous plant though something that we just used

9:28

to pick from the waterways et cetera,

9:31

that we're farming it sustainably now.

9:33

So the two cultures are coming together

9:35

to revive some of our bush medicine,

9:38

bush tucker, and being able to practise their culture

9:44

with agriculture and merging them together.

9:46

So it's using the old ways with the new ways,

9:49

working with country, with the new climate.

9:54

And that's why I said, it's not giving it unreasonable attention.

9:58

We never had the attention, we weren't allowed

10:02

to practise culture, but now we can.

10:05

So, it's a hard question, but I love it, I love it.

10:10

- And I suppose it feeds into that idea

10:14

of it's good sometimes to have hard conversations

10:18

and discuss things that are confronting

10:21

because that's how we understand each other better.

10:23

- Oh definitely. As I said, we were told, "Cover your mouth",

10:26

we weren't allowed to say anything. Now we can.

10:28

So, I suppose sometimes some of my people may seem angry

10:34

or they may seem confrontational, but it's not,

10:38

it's the passion of saying, "Well now our voice

10:42

is starting to be heard. We want to tell you things, we want to share things,

10:49

but we also need you to acknowledge the past first".

10:54

So, sustainability, we're fabulous at sustainability.

10:58

If we weren't, we would never have survived.

11:01

But we would need to bring some of those practises again

11:04

to the forefront, and now so we say with our voice,

11:08

we need people to listen to us more how we worked

11:12

with mother and it's not designing with country,

11:16

it's learning with country.

11:18

- Okay, so another question we've had

11:22

is do we lock it in a glass cabinet

11:26

or let everyone have a paintbrush?

11:29

- I love this one. - Yes, it's great, isn't it?

11:34

It goes on to further say how do we balance respect

11:38

for cultural heritage and preservation

11:41

with enabling an ancient culture to contemporize?

11:45

- We are not a museum.

11:48

We do not belong in a museum or behind glass.

11:54

We are the oldest living culture in the world.

11:59

It is, as I said before, living cultural heritage.

12:08

I'm not saying to give you paintbrush but to listen,

12:11

but we need to grow together on this, to still show respect.

12:17

You want to do immersion into culture

12:21

and have that experience of the immersion.

12:24

For it to be in a glass cabinet just means you just get

12:26

to look and probably tap on the glass.

12:29

For us, the balance is to be able to immerse yourself in

12:33

that experience. Once again, see, hear, touch, smell.

12:37

People want to be able to feel our spiritual connection.

12:44

They want to learn more about the history

12:47

of our past and our present.

12:51

So, putting in a glass cabinet, no.

12:53

It just means telling those stories but at the same time,

12:57

showing respect, preserving them as well.

13:01

Listen and understanding as we grow together.

13:04

And we've got to remember some of these stories

13:07

may change over time because they involve

13:10

when more comes forward because I said

13:13

other times we weren't allowed to share our stories.

13:18

For example, in the Truth-Telling treaty here in Victoria,

13:22

stories were emerging about the treatment,

13:25

but more stories have been shared about how we lived,

13:27

et cetera, and the culture.

13:29

- And I think that statement leads into the next question quite well

13:32

because there is another question, is posing research or engagement.

13:39

These may be conflicting, how do you progress the design intent?

13:45

Is every project case by case?

13:48

So in other words, through the conversation

13:51

we always find potentially as you were saying,

13:54

new things and things are brought to the forefront

14:00

through the engagement but how does

14:03

that work when it's conflicting? - Okay, both go together.

14:09

Let's just give an example of this research.

14:12

When people want to research something, let's say they go onto Google or whatever they may say,

14:16

do Aboriginal people like the colour yellow?

14:20

So you put that criteria in and you probably get, yes they do.

14:23

Then probably come back and bring up the Aboriginal flag has yellow in it.

14:28

Do Aboriginal people do dot paintings?

14:34

Yes, all Aboriginal people do dot paintings

14:36

normally dot paintings will come up. But you get a generalisation when you do your research

14:43

because you're putting in the criteria you want to know.

14:49

When we do the engagement, we're narrowing it down,

14:53

getting that firsthand knowledge from the Traditional Owner,

14:58

from the elder, from community.

15:03

It's like saying you'll find what you want

15:06

when you do your research, but you'll know more

15:10

of the truth and add more richness by doing the engagement.

15:17

Is that narrowing it down? - One hundred percent and I'd explain it

15:23

as well as a designer, if you're trying to represent place,

15:28

then yes you can, I'm in Perth,

15:31

then you can create a space or something

15:34

that reflects Perth. But if you engage and you understand exactly

15:38

that specific place in Perth

15:41

and as you were talking earlier about listening

15:43

and understanding, deeper understanding of that place

15:48

and then having the stories that relate specifically

15:51

to that place, then you're not gonna learn that

15:55

off the internet or research.

15:57

You need to have those from... And it is an oral history as you noted before

16:01

and so without talking and without having

16:04

these conversations, we're never gonna

16:06

understand the specific nature of the space

16:12

that we're designing in. - Yeah.

16:15

So, it's case by case.

16:18

As I said, when you talk it outwards, people go,

16:22

"Kat, can you do a dot painting?" I go, "If I hear that one more time,

16:25

I'll do a dot painting on your head in a minute." Because it's not relevant to Ngunnawal people,

16:31

it's not relevant to people in Victoria

16:34

where it's more linear lines.

16:36

And things like they talk about,

16:38

"Oh, you must have this certain gum tree,

16:41

you got to have a gum tree here." And you go, "Well this gum tree did not exist in this place,

16:45

in this country." Or they'll go, "When I go and see people do presentations

16:52

and they put it to Traditional Owners," and I go,

16:55

"I wish I'd saw that first." Because they'll put up a picture of Uluru and I go,

17:00

"But we're not there. Uluru is not in Victoria, I'm sorry."

17:05

Or they'll put, what is it?

17:07

The Twelve Apostles, they used to call the Piglets or something and they'll put it in

17:14

And I go, "That is on someone else's country, Eastern Maar".

17:20

So, it's time, it's place so we narrow it down

17:24

and learn stories of this particular place

17:29

from the Traditional Owners, elders, and community.

17:34

Definitely, as I said, you type researchers,

17:37

you type in what you want to hear, what you want to see.

17:42

- I think in projects that I've worked on before,

17:45

it goes down to that level as well that if you are trying

17:48

to represent a place, particularly if you're trying

17:52

to help a connection to that space,

17:56

if you then bring in stone from China

18:00

or you bring in a stone from a different country,

18:04

it could just be like you say literally only a few kilometres away,

18:07

but it's a different country, then you're not enhancing

18:11

and working with developing a connection

18:14

to that specific place.

18:17

Likewise with plants, if you're using native plants,

18:22

you could be using a native plant, but it could be from the other side of the country.

18:27

And therefore, to be endemic, to be of place,

18:30

we need to be a lot more careful about how we use our native planting

18:35

to be more specific and more endemic

18:37

and looking at how we can incorporate

18:41

that within our process. And also, like you say, ask if it's all right

18:45

to use a different stone, ask if it's okay to bring sand.

18:51

We created a dance circle in a project,

18:55

a dancing circle for celebration and coming together

18:58

and it also formed a bit of a yarning circle as well.

19:02

And we were looking for the right sand to put in it.

19:06

We literally got different bags of sand

19:08

and sent it to our engagement group for them

19:11

to feel and touch and we drew a map

19:14

to say exactly where the sand was coming from

19:18

to confirm it was from country,

19:20

it was from the right country, the right place

19:24

and it had the right texture, it had the right feeling.

19:28

I think it's about the level that we go to sometimes

19:30

in trying to engage and create that connection

19:35

to place and country, but also the respect

19:40

that we go through that process so even checking the materiality that we are using.

19:46

- Thank you. That is so important because by you taking a part of country

19:53

and putting it on someone else's country, you are taking their ancestors off that country,

19:59

putting them on someone else's country

20:01

and this is what we're trying to get you to think about.

20:04

So, it's as simple as that. When we say the plants, people go, oh, your native plants

20:12

and they go be aware you have native plants,

20:15

indigenous plants, so plants that we use.

20:20

The country is our chemist it's our supermarket,

20:24

it is our university, it is our Bunnings, et cetera.

20:29

We only took from country, news from country

20:32

because that's our spiritual connection.

20:34

When you take it to someone else's country, it's hurting us.

20:40

Someone said to me in the city, "Well how do we know what sort of things?"

20:43

And I go, one of the best things you can do

20:45

is if you're somewhere where they're doing a big dig excavation,

20:50

go and have a look and see that how deep it is

20:53

and you can see all the different,

20:56

you might get to see different ochres, colours of country in that and what it looks like in that,

21:01

and gives you a bit of a clue to what to look for as well.

21:06

And as I said, ask first, we know a lot

21:09

of now our indigenous plants do not survive on country

21:13

because climate change.

21:16

We work together where we get hybrids

21:19

or something that's similar. Sometimes we say is there a similar colour?

21:24

But once again, always ask first

21:26

because it's different for each country

21:28

and what they expect. But I like how you're saying,

21:31

please ask about bringing from another country

21:34

what you bring on country. And we did that for the Werribee,

21:37

we sourced boulders from country

21:41

and then another project we asked permission so that transport, even if you get permission,

21:45

the transporting should be done respectfully.

21:48

- Yeah, and it is, it's about asking, having that conversation.

21:51

There might be a process or a protocol

21:53

that you can do to transfer.

21:56

It may be a smoking ceremony in regards

21:59

to respecting the ancestors from one place

22:01

before it's moved to another, et cetera.

22:04

We've done that. I've done on projects or I haven't done it,

22:08

I've witnessed it done on projects (laughs) here

22:12

when transplanting trees that have just come from one place

22:18

to another to help that tree reestablish

22:22

because you're taking it, as you were describing before,

22:25

it's rooted in the ground and you're lifting it

22:28

and you're moving it and that's that spiritual connection

22:32

and that ability to bring in a process

22:37

that aids in the health of that tree.

22:40

But also the health and the connection

22:44

and the spiritual connection for the Traditional Owners

22:50

and the elders that were involved in the project. - Yeah, and have a think about it,

22:56

the in-thing now is to do an indigenous garden

23:00

with bush tucker bush medicine, which is what I do a lot of.

23:04

But when people ask me to design one for a project,

23:07

I'm always thinking what is the purpose of it?

23:10

Why do you really want one?

23:13

For educational, fantastic. For the new buzzword, what is it?

23:18

I can't even think, it was entertainment with education.

23:22

And I was going, "What?" I'm going, "We don't want just to put plants in there

23:26

for them to die because that's hurtful".

23:30

They want to have a purpose so you don't want

23:32

to plant like a hundred chocolate lilies

23:37

just because the smell comes every now and then they go,

23:40

"Oh cool", but to have them die.

23:43

We are gonna put them where you're gonna actually use it.

23:45

Is there a cafe or a servery that they can actually use it?

23:48

Is it an educational piece that people will get to see,

23:51

touch, smell, and even taste it. Don't just bring it on country just as a tick box say,

23:55

"Look what we've done a native or an indigenous planting."

24:00

Make sure it's got purpose, spend money elsewhere on a community.

24:04

- There's so many connections I think that we don't even understand

24:08

that isn't even a possibility sometimes

24:11

before you start these conversations. For example, a lot of locations and sites on country

24:17

are sometimes female or male, you know what I mean?

24:20

If you have objects within that space, say for example,

24:26

I don't know whether it's the same across the different mobs

24:29

as you say, language groups or countries,

24:33

a women's site here, if you put an emu in that area

24:36

would be seen as that's a male symbol,

24:38

and a female location there are different plants as well

24:43

that are more associated with women's business if you like

24:46

because they had medicinal purposes for women culturally.

24:51

So, I think it's about as long as we're having those conversations,

24:54

those things will be discussed and teased out

24:57

and as long as we're sharing our decisions

25:00

and our processes and it's about just,

25:03

even if you don't think it's something that somebody might have an interest in,

25:07

still talk about it because you'll suddenly find out

25:10

that thing that was not related to this at all

25:14

is totally culturally inappropriate because it's a male totem

25:18

or something within a traditionally women's site.

25:22

- Exactly. This is where we are saying where that open dialogue

25:27

and the question of ask first comes into it.

25:30

So, in these co-decide, I say co-decide design meetings

25:36

in those, ask those questions.

25:38

Is it okay if we can do this?

25:40

If the elders are not too sure, they'll go find out.

25:43

That's the whole point of that cultural journey you take

25:46

with us when we have those sessions.

25:49

But you bang on about that, people forget women's

25:54

and men's business and how different elements pertain

25:58

to culturally similar women's business,

26:03

culturally similar men's business and initiation and everything.

26:06

And if you really want to be respectful,

26:10

then you need to know a bit more about

26:13

what you're putting in there. Is it gonna be disrespectful to the culture,

26:18

to the people? You don't want to do that.

26:20

So, it's just the simplest things and people just think it's just a tree.

26:24

No, it's not to us or it's just a boulder,

26:26

no, it's not just to us. Different elements have, and every mob

26:34

will have something different, ask.

26:37

- I've got a couple more questions I'm gonna read now.

26:39

They're taken from I suppose, more of a perspective

26:44

of logistics looking through engagement within a project.

26:50

The first one I've got here is how can we make space

26:54

to meaningfully design with country in the context

26:58

of a bed or design competition when often a huge portion

27:02

of the design is locked in before meaningful engagement

27:06

with the Traditional Owners?

27:08

Or is this asking too much?

27:11

It seems like it shouldn't be too much to ask

27:14

for some of our biggest, most important public projects.

27:18

- Yeah, this comes up a lot

27:21

and especially when I'm on tenders and it's hard

27:25

because I always say we need to engage first.

27:29

How do you design something when you don't even know

27:32

about country or protocols or what we can and can't do?

27:38

And the timeframes within construction

27:41

and infrastructure are just so out there

27:43

that there's no room really for proper full-on engagement.

27:51

When I'm on a project and it comes to where they've got to put a design in before you even have contact

27:56

with Traditional Owners because you're not allowed to for competition phase, it's being able to engage with people

28:03

like myself who have been privy to so much beautiful stories

28:08

and knowledge of different cultures

28:11

of different mob around Australia where we can give you snippets of what we've been told

28:17

so it's more like a bit of a background first.

28:22

It's like that paint by numbers. We can give you a few of those numbers to paint in.

28:29

We give that design so that the design can be layered

28:33

once we have that contact, that true Traditional Owner engagement

28:37

so that things can be built within it as well.

28:40

The storylines can be built within it,

28:42

certain changes can be built within it

28:45

because we understand that some of the structure has

28:48

to already be in the tender before it even goes

28:51

to Traditional Owners. We get that. But there's certain things you can add

28:56

to give it that cultural narrative,

28:59

to give it that cultural input.

29:02

- We've also done it in a different way as well

29:04

where we've done as an art workshop.

29:09

We've invited artists for a workshop scenario,

29:13

spent a day sharing ideas and talking,

29:18

coming up with suggestions so that there's a plethora

29:21

of opportunities even if it's not necessarily,

29:26

you know you're going to develop it further

29:29

through the process and the project.

29:32

- Yeah, but make sure you not just throwing it in at the end

29:36

just for the hell of it. - No, absolutely.

29:39

- Yeah, think about how you can layer your design up

29:44

from that and that's where you get the paint by numbers,

29:47

and in the end you go, oh it's a fruit basket. Good, now we know what it was supposed to be.

29:54

A friend, an architectural friend said,

29:57

"It seems like it speaks to you." And I go, "It does."

30:00

The building or structure will speak to you what it wants

30:03

to become because it's part of country,

30:06

it is a living thing on country,

30:08

it's an extension of country now.

30:10

And that's where sometimes people fall over, they just go, "Nope, it's just a structure,

30:14

just a building." It's not, so interesting.

30:18

I like that. That's a good question and it's really hard

30:22

for us people like me to come in to try

30:24

to fix some of these things up

30:26

because I've come in at a stage where they've put all the plans in

30:29

and had no engagement whatsoever

30:31

and they've gone, "Oh crap."

30:34

And I go, "It's okay, you've now admitted

30:38

that yeah, we haven't done it. Let's put that to the past.

30:40

Let's work out how we can move forward

30:44

and give some respect to your structure, to your building."

30:49

And there's always a way so just don't think,

30:51

"Oh, we haven't done it, we're not gonna do it."

30:56

Please still engage. - The next question we had is very similar when it comes

31:02

to listening to Australia's First Nations people

31:05

and fostering genuine engagement

31:08

towards advancing reconciliation efforts,

31:11

the phrase, nothing about us without us,

31:14

is important to remember, practise and embrace.

31:18

However, this place is quite a burden

31:21

on First Nations people. A big ask for less than 4% of the population.

31:26

How can non-indigenous listeners better respect the time,

31:29

energy, culture, and tradition of First Nations people

31:34

on the journey to voice, treaty, and truth?

31:38

- Once again, ask first. Think laterally and in a partnership way,

31:45

and this is something that always comes through.

31:51

Oh, I suppose not every community will want to participate.

31:55

We must be respectful. Remember our knowledge has been lost

32:00

and we're starting to regain, retell, and share.

32:06

When I say not everyone wants to participate because it brings up the trauma again of the past sometimes

32:13

and not all want to engage, to share that

32:17

because there are some stories and cultural elements

32:20

that in our culture we don't share, not even with other mob.

32:28

Sometimes as you said, we share things

32:30

with women within our mob, women's business only.

32:33

Sometimes the men will share men's things with men

32:37

so when it comes to how do we respectfully listen

32:43

and about that raw truth and treaty,

32:46

give us the time to voice what we want to say

32:51

because we haven't had that before, to listen.

32:56

And as I said, listening is not just with your ears

32:59

and sometimes you brought up before, it's not gonna take 30 minutes to an hour.

33:05

Sometimes it may take months to really understand

33:09

and get that truth-telling and the voice

33:12

and the treaty to come through.

33:16

We didn't have that the clock to tell us when,

33:20

those timeframes. We sat down and it could have been for days,

33:26

for months 'till things were resolved. Some things never get resolved.

33:33

Different mobs, different elders have different experiences to share.

33:37

- And different sites as well have different impacts

33:40

as you were saying earlier, like different association

33:43

with different trauma and for one group over another

33:49

or for one family over another. So, yeah, respectfully listen and understand that.

33:57

- And it can be a burden. Because I think too many people assume we're going

34:02

to have those answers for you and have them

34:04

there and then and now.

34:06

We're a collective. Not one person makes that one decision

34:11

and sometimes it'll go back to the board to discuss

34:15

and they might meet 'till the next two weeks, three weeks,

34:18

and even then it mightn't be resolved

34:20

so then you have to wait longer.

34:22

- The next question is, is it an oversimplification

34:27

to suggest there is a huge crossover

34:29

with caring for country and environmentally sustainable design?

34:35

Or is this an opportunity to leverage

34:39

already well-established sustainability aspirations

34:42

on projects to broaden to include caring for country?

34:47

- It's a real big thing.

34:50

Everything is, every meeting I go to, every tender I'm on,

34:57

it's like the eggshell fact. Everyone goes, "We've got to care for country.

35:00

How do we put this in our design? How do we put this with the green star indigenous principles

35:04

or the green star rating, caring for country, healing country."

35:08

Guess what? We really can't heal country because she's too fractured.

35:15

When we say we cut ourselves by accident and we go,

35:19

"Oh my gosh, what are we going to do?"

35:21

You have to get it stitched up or put a bandaid on it and after a while they go,

35:25

"Look, it's healed." We go, "Oh yeah, it's back to normal."

35:28

Can we do that to country now? Sadly we can't.

35:33

So we have to look at ways of working with country,

35:38

our mother, collaborating with our mother, learning from mother to say this caring for country needs

35:44

to be more sustainable. Are there projects out there that are being more sustainable

35:50

and using sustainable practises,

35:52

meaning working with country?

35:55

Yes, there are. Yes, there are. They still have a long way to go.

35:58

You'd say they're trying to work with country, trying to solve some of the issues that we're having,

36:04

that we're adding to countries' woes, so to speak.

36:08

So we can talk about simple things such as the use of colour

36:13

and texture within buildings, within houses, et cetera.

36:18

Because colours can sometimes give you that warmth

36:21

and that cooling effect.

36:23

We can use different types of materials,

36:25

but materials that are sourced sustainably.

36:28

Over here in Victoria, I noticed that I always see now a lot of log trucks come through

36:33

and I always go, ​"Oh, my heart aches," because we must be cutting down so many trees.

36:37

Because I've never seen it before in my travels. And I go, "Oh, sustainable agriculture."

36:43

But are we up-cycling material?

36:45

Are we reusing material?

36:48

You have the use of water, recycled water, rainwater.

36:51

And I sit on a few projects, on a project

36:54

with Hassell at the moment where it's not only a cooling effect,

36:59

but it also captures the rainwater to make rain gardens.

37:02

So when we have those big days of rain,

37:06

it fills up these beautiful rain wells.

37:09

But also, you can have plants in there

37:11

that are tolerant to all that.

37:13

And then when we have days without any rain,

37:16

it slowly drains out.

37:18

So it's utilising recycled rainwater,

37:22

but also using the rainwater's cooling effects.

37:26

Another big thing some companies and buildings are doing really well is lighting.

37:31

And this is something that we need to get better at though

37:35

because lighting, we tend to be like,

37:38

"Everything's up in lights, so many lights everywhere."

37:40

And everyone goes, "Oh, yay, wow."

37:43

What you've forgotten is it does affect migration patterns

37:47

of birds and other wildlife, and they're starting

37:50

to die out as well because of all this unnatural lighting.

37:55

Have a think about what can we do to minimise that,

37:59

to even stop it if possible. Wind, as I said before, wind, we use wind

38:04

as a cooling effect as well within buildings,

38:06

within that natural airflow coming through.

38:10

We use the sun where we face our buildings,

38:14

where we face our plant life, where we face people in the building.

38:17

The sun can play a major role in heating

38:20

and in natural lighting. And the biggest step I think a lot of people in design

38:25

are looking at now is the use of the roof space

38:29

whereas we fly over in Melbourne and other cities and all we see is these grey buildings and nothing there.

38:36

Using roof space, using these gardens, and using biophilia

38:42

to act as cooling, to act as heating as well so,

38:46

which is what we used to do. We used to use whatever we had around us to keep us warm,

38:52

but also to reflect the sun.

38:55

And for one project, I know with Hassell,

38:58

we did that one train station is we put in a sort

39:02

of a biodiversity section up top of the station

39:06

where it was encouraging the golden sun moth a new habitat

39:11

for it because it was dying out, so it's encouraging it to come back.

39:15

And the Bogong moth, which everyone says, "What's a Bogong moth?"

39:18

And I go, "Bogong moths come from Ngunnawal country,

39:20

ACT, comes all the way down to here

39:23

and all the way into New South Wales,

39:25

was a staple diet and it's been there thousands.

39:29

They're not like that anymore. So we're saying without the biophilia,

39:33

without the trees, we start to plant in our designs,

39:37

things start to die out. When you start planting trees and that,

39:40

you'll probably notice, oh, I can hear a bird.

39:43

We didn't hear birds before. Oh, wow, we've got cicadas.

39:46

Oh, we've got the bees. It's great because you're giving them back their homes,

39:50

their habitat. So maybe when we're designing what we take from country,

39:56

we give back as well. So we may not be able to do that within the built form,

40:02

but somewhere, we can then plant more trees,

40:05

plant more native, more indigenous plants

40:08

that suit the climate to keep country healing,

40:12

what you term as healing. So there are great examples out there.

40:19

Passive house is a really good one to look at.

40:23

And even just small architectural firms doing housing

40:26

and now taking advantage of our ways

40:29

and how we learned from country, how we lived with country,

40:32

coexisted, and putting that into their housing now.

40:36

Living in caves and stuff like that is just phenomenal,

40:40

but taking those ideas of how nature provided for you,

40:45

cooled you, heated you, that's what we should be doing.

40:49

Healing country, what you deem as healing country does need

40:52

to be number one at all times.

40:54

Sustainability needs to be number one at all times.

40:58

They go together. - Yeah, that is a whole 'nother podcast.

41:02

- Mother is talking to us in so many ways, but once again, we're not listening.

41:07

In design, when they say how do we put caring

41:09

for country in design, listen to country

41:14

with every sense and how do we make it part of country?

41:21

It works with country, it's not going to damage it

41:23

any further, what materiality can we use

41:29

that can be repurposed.

41:32

For example, on one of the projects out here on the rails,

41:38

unfortunately, some trees had to be cut down.

41:41

We go, everyone on that team is fabulous.

41:44

We say, "What can we do, Kat?

41:47

These are your ancestors." I go, "They're not mine, but the Wathaurong people."

41:50

Some of those trees we repurpose and built yarning circles in different areas

41:54

where people are coming together and they're talking now about things.

41:58

We hand them back to different areas as natural habitats.

42:03

They're not just, think about what you're doing

42:06

before you throw it away. - A hundred percent I'm a great believer in no tree

42:10

should leave site. - Thank you, yes.

42:12

- It either stays in place or it even, like you say,

42:17

it's habitat, it's mulched. It then contributes back to the ecosystem of that place

42:23

and will find its way back into the system.

42:25

- I love it. I love it. As I said, sustainability never was like

42:29

the Mickey Mouse thing. Now, it's so important in all designs.

42:34

We need to find that has to be number one,

42:36

how you design, how is it sustainable,

42:39

how does it keep that heartbeat of country going?

42:43

- Okay, I think we've got a final question here.

42:48

Kat, in your job, you must have lots

42:51

of challenging conversations, which we have touched upon

42:54

how we can have these different conversations, some of them will be challenging.

42:58

On topics that have the potential to get quite heated,

43:04

which from my experience I can say some do,

43:07

how can you help us and better have these conversations?

43:11

But also how to have conversations with relatives as well

43:16

so that we can take our learnings from you.

43:19

There's an old generation out there

43:21

who have very different understanding

43:23

and around topics like the voice,

43:25

which is a prevalent issue right now

43:28

and in the forefront of people's minds and it may be discussed around the dinner table

43:32

on a Sunday afternoon or whatever. How can we have some of these conversations

43:37

and what advice would you give us? - Yeah, courageous conversations.

43:42

Get comfortable being uncomfortable.

43:44

I was always taught to always show respect,

43:49

but truth-telling and people, we always say we used to,

43:54

our ways were sitting down where we faced each other

43:57

and we could talk about anything. You may not get things resolved,

44:00

but we speak from the heart as well.

44:03

In my role, I have to try to remain factual,

44:08

not emotional because I have a cultural role to play,

44:16

a business role to play. And sometimes the two headbutt and it breaks my heart

44:21

that sometimes I have to think about business before culture

44:25

because culture's so important to me.

44:28

When discussing the voice, which comes up a lot,

44:31

I always say to people,

44:33

it's like anything new people fear change

44:36

when they don't understand it

44:40

or where they don't have the facts in front of them.

44:45

There's plenty of factual information out there

44:48

about the voice and what it is.

44:50

As I said, I sit back and I go, sometimes it's hard for me

44:54

to understand because we've never had the opportunity

44:58

to say how we feel, the opportunity to manage our lives,

45:04

so to speak, and what's important to us and how it's going to affect us.

45:09

So, really, you're always gonna have people

45:12

who will put up that barrier and the only way I see forward is be honest,

45:19

be truthful, and to be aware that some people

45:24

are just not going to understand

45:27

and will not vote based on facts, but on fear.

45:34

And that's the hard part. All through the generations or the different things.

45:38

The first one, referendum 1967

45:44

for Aboriginal Torres Strait Islanders being able to vote,

45:47

that was just diabolical.

45:49

Not all referendums get a vote so we were lucky to get that.

45:56

Before that, we were previously on the flora and fauna list.

45:59

That's what we were called. We weren't human.

46:03

But yeah, it's just keeping it open and honest.

46:05

As I said, it's a hard one, but maybe direct them

46:08

to factual information where they can read up

46:12

and make that informed choice for themselves.

46:16

But as I said, people have their own opinions,

46:19

they're entitled to those rights as well.

46:21

- Thank you. Yeah, I a hundred percent agree in the respect that

46:24

yeah, just tell your own truth and you can't always change somebody else's mind

46:30

so read the room (laughs).

46:32

- That's in my role (laughs). You get called a lot, you got to have thick skin

46:39

in what I do, but at the same time, it's the smallest winds,

46:46

the baron bow, the which means many footprints

46:50

You've got many footprints, but one big one can change.

46:55

- This conversation is also an extension of the journey we are on as part

46:59

of the reconciliation action plan that we're doing

47:02

and part of our commitment to respectfully listen to,

47:06

learn, and advocate for Australia's first people.

47:10

This has been a wonderful step on that journey as well,

47:13

having this conversation. I think what some of the things I've taken

47:17

from this conversation is truth-telling

47:22

and speaking from the heart is something you've just said,

47:25

Kat, and that is so important.

47:28

And just staying in the room together,

47:30

just talking and having the conversation.

47:33

And I know we keep using that term, just keep talking,

47:38

but it's as simple as that really, isn't it?

47:40

- Yep. - There are complexities to it, and do not get me wrong,

47:44

we all understand that. But the simple takeaway is that we should just keep talking

47:51

and move forward together. I would like to make a personal thank you to Kat

47:55

for your generosity and participation

47:58

in this incredibly important topic. So thank you.

48:01

- Pleasure. - And thank you to our listeners,

48:04

wherever they might be around the world,

48:07

and thank you for their feedback and all of the questions

48:09

that they so kindly sent in prior to our conversation today.

48:14

I'm Hannah Galloway and you've been listening to an episode of "Hassell Talks".

48:18

This episode was produced by Prue Vincent

48:20

and myself in collaboration with Hassell's Cultural Engagement working group.

48:24

With particular thanks to Rubina Cook, Kirsten Thompson,

48:28

Adam Davis and Liam Cridland for their time and guidance.

48:33

(gentle music)