0:01

(soft music)

0:06

- From Global Design Practice, Hassell,

0:08

this is Hassell Talks.

0:11

I'm Caroline Stalker, and I'm an architect,

0:14

urbanist, and a principal at Hassell.

0:17

I'm here on Jagera and Turrbal Country in Brisbane,

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and I pay my respects to elders past, present, and emerging.

0:26

I'm delighted to be stepping back into the hosting hot seat.

0:30

In this episode, we'll be sharing more insights with you

0:34

into how we're looking at the opportunities for Brisbane

0:36

ahead of the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games.

0:42

In the previous Olympics episode, season five, episode one,

0:46

do go back and have a listen if you haven't had a chance to already,

0:50

we talked about public realm as the glue for a better city.

0:54

This time around, we're specifically interested in precincts

0:58

and what we can learn from others faced with similar large events

1:02

to catalyse wider positive urban change.

1:05

These episodes are case studies in a way

1:07

into the types of conversations and thoughts we have

1:11

as designers when we're presented with great, big, exciting challenges

1:15

and opportunities to make places better for people.

1:18

To give you the context, I'll start with a little recap

1:21

so you know what's at play. In 2032, an area known as Southeast Queensland

1:27

will host the Summer Olympics. That area is about 200 kilometres long

1:32

and covers the Gold Coast, Brisbane and Sunshine Coast.

1:36

There's a significant cluster of venues

1:39

within Brisbane city itself

1:41

and then there's other venues distributed

1:43

through our 200 kilometre linear region.

1:47

And of course, the Olympic venues themselves

1:49

will catalyse change in the precincts around them.

1:54

Each of the events in these locations

1:57

throughout Southeast Queensland and in the cluster in Central Brisbane

2:01

will catalyse precinct change and renewal around the venues.

2:06

So how do you get all the pieces to coordinate

2:09

to guarantee all of those benefits the state wants to see?

2:13

And how can we help the decision makers

2:15

to see where those exciting opportunities are?

2:19

Can we embrace doing what's hard

2:21

to drive positive urban change?

2:23

(upbeat brass music) - I shall open the games for London,

2:29

celebrating the 30th Olympia of the modern era.

2:34

- London did. The London Olympics is known for its success

2:39

in catalysing the renewal of a significant urban precinct.

2:43

And while it was a slightly different format

2:45

from the Brisbane Olympics, talking about it and exploring what happened

2:50

in the London Olympic Games and host games development

2:53

may help us to understand potential mechanisms

2:56

for our own Olympics, precincts and legacy in Brisbane.

3:01

Which brings me to my guests.

3:03

From 2003, Andrew Comer led a team

3:06

providing the strategic engineering inputs

3:09

of the London 2012 Olympic Park

3:12

and Legacy Master Plan and Design for Engineering and Design Consultancy Buro Happold.

3:18

Andrew worked directly for the London Development Agency

3:20

and Olympic Delivery Authority with the EDAW Consortium.

3:24

This award-winning scheme was the catalyst for change

3:27

for the East End of London, delivering a future-proofed

3:30

246 hectare regeneration development platform

3:34

from one of Europe's most deprived and polluted sites.

3:39

I can't imagine anyone more perfectly placed

3:41

to share his insights from that experience with us.

3:44

So welcome, Andrew.

3:46

- Caroline, thank you very much indeed for that welcome.

3:50

It's a pleasure to be here. I'm looking forward to the conversation with you

3:54

and with my friend and long-time ally

3:59

in planning and design, Ashley.

4:01

- And speaking of perfectly placed experiences,

4:04

my Hassell colleague, Ashley Munday,

4:07

is also joining us today.

4:09

Based in London, Ashley has worked in architecture

4:12

and urban design from Australia and Asia

4:14

to the Middle East and Europe. His extensive experience includes the design

4:18

of entire city master plans

4:20

and was also involved from the beginning

4:23

of the London Games on the renewal

4:25

and delivery of the East End Precinct.

4:27

And as you'll hear from his Antipodean accent,

4:30

he's a local, born in South East Queensland.

4:33

Welcome, Ash. Thanks for joining us.

4:36

- Thanks, Andrew. Thanks, Caroline.

4:38

- Andrew, when you look back at the amazing change

4:41

that took place in East London to that precinct and the urban fabric

4:45

and the communities that make up the many hubs within it,

4:48

what do you think the greatest lesson was?

4:51

What can we learn?

4:53

- Well, the first thing I'd say is this is probably a once in a two

4:59

or three generational opportunity for a country to get together,

5:05

to reflect on its past and its culture,

5:08

to celebrate, I guess, what it stands for at present,

5:12

but also give some real thought to where it wants to go

5:16

and what it wants to be over the next 30, 40, 50 years.

5:20

Society is changing a lot, faced with a lot of pressures across the globe.

5:25

Climate change is something that's gonna keep pacing

5:28

over that time. And now we have the interesting dynamic

5:33

of artificial intelligence and technology.

5:35

So there's a whole bunch of social and societal changes

5:38

on top of some of the issues and stresses

5:41

that any society faces. I think it's a time to step back,

5:46

really reflect on where the country wants to go,

5:49

where the people want to go, and an opportunity, big opportunity,

5:54

to undertake a catalytic sort of injection

5:58

of a change of pace and direction,

6:00

if that's what's required.

6:02

- From your point of view, was there a single defining moment where that coalesced,

6:06

what you're just describing with the London renewal?

6:10

- Yeah, I think so. And it happened very, very early on.

6:14

I can remember in 2003, so we're going back two decades now,

6:20

and seven, what could that be?

6:22

Nine years out from when the Games was actually run.

6:24

But the London authorities organised a competition

6:28

for consortia to bid for the right

6:33

to undertake master planning and the planning application

6:36

for the Olympic Park precinct in East London.

6:40

And I can remember being involved in those team meetings

6:44

and the decision taken very early on

6:47

that actually this wasn't about the, and it wasn't necessarily just about the Olympic Games.

6:51

In fact, the most important point was going to be about what was the legacy,

6:55

what was the defining legacy of this opportunity?

6:58

And so there was a, from that moment on,

7:01

I think everyone really, it was a light bulb moment.

7:03

Everyone focused around that opportunity

7:06

to give some thought to what this place could be like

7:10

in 2040, interestingly enough, another 15 years off still.

7:14

And the Games itself was an important temporal event

7:18

that was on a journey over those three

7:21

or four or five decades.

7:24

So, and I think that was probably the winning strategy

7:29

in terms of the consortia that were pitching for the project

7:32

and it remained very much embedded in the programme itself.

7:37

- Ash, I'd like to bring you into the conversation.

7:41

You've shared a story about your time in London

7:45

that illustrates the conversations that were taking place at the time

7:48

about why the decision was made

7:51

to choose that really difficult site.

7:54

Would you mind sharing that story with us now?

7:56

- Yeah, yeah, sure. And this is almost to refer to Andrew's light bulb moment

8:01

back in sort of 2003. This is almost the mini pre light bulb moment.

8:06

I was an awful lot younger.

8:09

I was a junior sort of associate level member

8:12

as part of a much bigger team with Andrew and his colleagues

8:16

and all sorts of other people from other companies.

8:18

But I was really privileged and lucky to sort of be in the core of the room on many occasions

8:22

taking notes on behalf of much more senior colleagues.

8:27

But there was this fantastic moment, which was about if London was to stage the Olympic Games.

8:33

And at that time, nobody actually believed that we would.

8:35

It was sort of like, in theory, a kind of trial run.

8:39

Paris is probably gonna win it, but let's just play this one out and see where it goes.

8:44

London was to host the Olympic Games. Where should we have it?

8:47

Where should we put the middle of this Olympic site?

8:52

And at the time, obviously, the whole Wembley discussion was boiling away

8:55

and you had Sir Norman Foster and Populous

8:58

working on the beginnings of Wembley.

9:00

And Wembley, there was a big discussion about how to incorporate the athletics track into Wembley.

9:06

I think anyone in the construction industry in the UK

9:08

would remember that sort of mad conversation

9:11

that always happens with Olympic stadiums

9:14

about the kind of run between the different sports

9:16

that would happen there. It was all about the running track

9:19

and almost assumed as a fait accompli

9:21

that the Olympics, if we did, of course you would have it at Wembley

9:24

because you've got a stadium and you can put a track on it.

9:26

And we're doing a master plan around the edges. So part of that could be a village

9:29

and we could get lots of other stuff. So it was almost in a way, and almost a no brainer,

9:35

that that's the way it was being perceived. And there was this whole round of discussions

9:39

where they brought in lots of design professionals from all over the UK where a group said,

9:44

well, hang on a minute. And this probably kind of included my boss at the time,

9:49

really a great guy called Bob Allies.

9:51

And he sort of, he and some other people,

9:54

Jason Pryor was another one, I think. Bill Hanway said, oh, well, hang on a minute.

9:57

Well, that doesn't get you anything long-term.

10:01

You get a, okay, you get a shiny new stadium which you're getting anyway.

10:04

Anyway, you're getting a master plan around the stadium.

10:06

You're getting that anyway.

10:08

How can we use this better? Where is London a mess?

10:12

Where can we, we've got to grow this city.

10:14

We're bursting at the seams. We need more transport infrastructure.

10:18

We need more land to build housing on.

10:21

You know, this is, we've got a housing crisis today.

10:23

We've always had a housing crisis in London to a degree.

10:27

And they said, we've got to open up development

10:29

to the east of the city because there's just nothing happening out there.

10:33

And they use the Olympic Games.

10:35

They made this decision to use the Olympic Games on this site in the Lower Lea Valley to say,

10:40

well, if we don't do it now and use this political will

10:42

and funding for very boring infrastructural stuff

10:46

like burying power lines and remediating sites,

10:50

we'll never have another opportunity in our lifetimes

10:52

to open up this site. And it will remain a blight on the edge of London

10:55

for the next hundred years.

10:57

And we won't move on and develop it further. So the bold move for me to do not what was easiest,

11:03

but what's hardest, what's actually hard and very difficult and expensive

11:06

is now paying itself back in spades,

11:10

I think, to the city of London, not just on that Olympic site,

11:14

but all those parts of London between the city

11:17

and well east beyond that Olympic site

11:20

are really now starting to flourish

11:22

because of that decision. If the people around the table did what was easiest,

11:26

that would still be a dead zone of the city now.

11:28

It's a bold move. - And just to add to that, Ashley's absolutely right.

11:33

As part of the original master planning

11:35

for the park and the legacy, we actually undertook a study on behalf of the clients

11:40

and look at, well, what happens if London,

11:42

it was almost when London doesn't win the Olympics,

11:46

what can we actually do in this part of London?

11:49

And it was very little. It was very little and it was going to take

11:53

an awfully long time. So it was a bold move,

11:57

but it was that once in a lifetime opportunity

11:59

to do something. - When you looked at the site, did it seem impossible?

12:03

- Yeah, I remember going down there and-

12:05

- Did you just think, oh my God, this is huge.

12:07

How are we ever going to do it? - Derelict, it wasn't the size of it.

12:11

It was the state of it. Derelict canals, shopping trolleys, a few sheds,

12:16

you know, where- - Europe's largest user refrigerator mounting.

12:20

- I remember that very attractive. - (laughs) I'm sorry.

12:23

- But you know, it's where, it's what happens

12:25

where you go to disassemble cars you've stolen

12:27

and bury bodies and stuff. That was the nature of that site in London.

12:31

And you thought, what an impossible,

12:33

how is this going to ever happen in

12:37

what was it, by the time we got on with that,

12:39

you know, seven, eight years away, how are we going to get through this?

12:43

It was pretty amazing. But for me, it was a lesson in how you can,

12:48

you have to imagine and think well beyond,

12:51

not the constraints, but the possibilities.

12:53

Like you really have to throw the ball way out there

12:57

to imagine the ability to transform a place like that.

13:00

And it's been, I wouldn't even say it's been done.

13:03

It's still going. And there's still a lot of cooking to go,

13:07

but it's pretty amazing. - So is that speaking to the role of vision

13:11

and design vision and just a driving vision

13:15

that people come together around?

13:17

- I think it is. - Is that the right word?

13:19

- Vision is really important, but there's another really important aspect to it.

13:23

And I would say it's leadership.

13:25

It needs really strong, joined up leadership

13:31

at central, regional and local levels.

13:34

You can't do it otherwise because there are going to be times, as there was in London,

13:39

there were times when it was

13:41

there was some really rocky moments. I remember when the recession hit 2008,

13:46

they'd just announced that the budget for the games

13:49

had gone up from two and a half billion,

13:51

which was always undercooked to nine billion.

13:55

And then lo and behold, Lehman Brothers collapsed

13:58

and that everyone was going, how on earth are we going to get through it?

14:03

So you need at the very top, some very strong leadership

14:08

and very committed leadership, that's for sure.

14:10

- I agree. And I think these things actually vision is like,

14:17

it's a very thing we use often around design

14:19

and it really wasn't about design, actually. It was something strange coming from

14:22

an architect and an urbanist. It was about that leadership

14:26

and about an idea or a possibility

14:30

that transcended economies, budgets, money, politics.

14:36

It was a very bold decision for a government to make.

14:42

And as Andrew said, when a budget goes from two billion to nine billion

14:45

at the, when the world economy is falling off a cliff,

14:50

that was even more difficult,

14:52

but actually it wasn't about the nine billion.

14:55

The nine billion is already paying itself back.

14:57

It was about the possibility for London for the future

15:00

or probably a lot of stagnation for London.

15:03

- I mean, I think just reflecting on that, it was in a way the recession

15:06

was quite an interesting moment of reset

15:09

because suddenly governments were talking about

15:12

bank losses of 50 billion or 60 billion

15:15

and suddenly nine billion didn't seem to be too big a step.

15:20

- What a bargain. - I want to talk a little bit about Brisbane

15:24

and some of the specific contexts of Brisbane

15:26

and things that we can learn. And I think those

15:29

the things that you've already said are hugely important.

15:32

We do have a different format, as I mentioned earlier.

15:35

We don't have an Olympic Park,

15:37

but we do have some critical mass around some precincts.

15:42

And I guess when you mentioned the kind of the challenges

15:45

of that East London precinct,

15:47

and there are some definitely some parallels.

15:50

South East Queensland, like so many parts of Australia

15:53

and other parts of the world is facing a massive housing affordability challenge.

15:58

Massive. We are feeling the impacts of climate change

16:02

and flooding and heat. Our city is becoming less equitable.

16:07

People have less, it's harder to have the same equity of access

16:11

through good transport to economic opportunities.

16:16

And frankly, some of the venues in the inner city

16:19

are in traffic islands or things fragmented by linear infrastructure.

16:23

They're in tough settings. You know, tough settings to imagine

16:26

being full of high quality urban spaces around them.

16:29

So I'm very interested then about how we can

16:33

start to attack some of those problems

16:36

to maximise the uplift of those precincts

16:41

for public benefit. - It's a really good question.

16:44

I'm not at all familiar with South East Queensland

16:47

other than I have a lot of ex-colleagues

16:49

and hopefully friends still who live in that part of the world

16:53

and who I've had conversations with.

16:55

But drawing on some of the lessons from London,

16:58

I think you can go right back to some fairly basic fundamentals.

17:01

And your point about access and movement

17:04

is critical to any city too, in terms of its

17:09

in helping with its economic and social successes.

17:12

Because of the challenges I think there was perceived issues

17:16

around how do you get people into and out of East London.

17:19

We were quite fortunate at the time because there was already a large amount of investment

17:23

going in in terms of taking the channel tunnel

17:27

from Paris, rerouting it through North London and Stratford

17:31

and then onto Central London.

17:33

So there's a big bit of, a huge bit of infrastructure kit

17:36

already being planned and budgeted for.

17:39

Then layering on all those other modes

17:43

that were going to be needed to make sure not only you're able to get people

17:47

to and from the park and the precinct,

17:50

but to continue to allow London to operate smoothly,

17:54

you know, because the last thing you want to do is spend, celebrate for six weeks

17:58

with the whole city shut down and the economic benefits being drained away

18:03

because you can't actually get people in and out of work

18:06

during the same time. So there was that.

18:08

And then on top of that, obviously thinking about how that transport,

18:12

as you said earlier,

18:14

opened up the opportunity for the future development.

18:18

So I think for me, getting that transport planning programming,

18:22

the operation side of it was hugely complex.

18:25

And I would say

18:28

a lot of it was down to the leadership again,

18:31

you know, one or two really key people,

18:33

Hugh Sumner, who was the Olympic Development Authority's

18:37

transport director for the entire journey,

18:39

which was the first time anyone's succeeded in that.

18:43

You know, that was a significant issue

18:46

to deal with and get right.

18:48

- Yeah, I think also the other bit of thinking,

18:50

which I thought was really interesting at the beginning of that,

18:53

it was sort of what I call a bit of outside in

18:55

and inside out kind of thinking

18:57

where you get within Olympic games or any big sporting event for that matter,

19:01

people tend to put the venues at the centre of the planet

19:04

and say, it's about the venue and we work our way out from that.

19:07

It's obvious because it's a big risk item.

19:09

We've got to deliver these venues for the games. But actually I remember a lot of the early thinking

19:13

on London or the early exercises,

19:15

which was about master planning the legacy and telling, almost putting an onus

19:20

or a brief back on the venue about its obligations and responsibilities to the legacy,

19:24

whether that venue stayed or not, whether it was permanent or temporary,

19:28

what it was going to do or how the place it sat was going to perform in legacy mode

19:32

and then reverse engineering it, then designing the venue to make the contribution.

19:37

So that was one bit, which was about the site.

19:41

The other bit was thinking about the Olympic site,

19:44

not as a, and we've touched on this before, not as this shiny curated master plan

19:49

of 256 hectares in East London, but just thinking of it as a connection.

19:52

How can we make it easier to go from

19:55

Hackney through to another part of Stratford

19:59

or Tower Hamlets or wherever beyond the Olympic site?

20:04

It was a place to pass through, which sounds terrible when you

20:07

when you put it to a commercial person

20:09

because they go, oh, I want to capture my market

20:11

and bomb a lot of retail there, but- - But it's not an island.

20:15

- It's not an island. It had fractured edges and I think I've said before,

20:20

the success of the Olympic site in London

20:23

is not knowing where the master plan begins or finishes

20:25

at the end of the day. - Yes, that's a great observation.

20:30

- There's a lot of bad master plans that put the shiny new here

20:33

and everybody out there, well, if you've got the money, you can come in,

20:36

if not, off you pop.

20:39

- And I was going to say,

20:41

thinking back to your initial point,

20:44

it was a unique project in terms of the way

20:46

it was approached in terms of planning and design.

20:48

I think it's the only one I've ever worked on

20:51

where every facet had two drawings,

20:56

two sets of design that were worked on side by side,

21:00

one looking at the legacy, one looking at the games themselves.

21:06

And the mantra was

21:08

we've got a budget here and we need to spend it wisely.

21:11

So it was every, I think it was every 85 pence

21:15

or every 90 pence in the pound

21:17

needed to have a value in the legacy.

21:20

So it was a really good discipline

21:23

and yeah, just needed some smart people

21:27

to make sure it worked properly.

21:29

- It's funny. Everyone objectifies the Olympic games,

21:33

but this whole thing was about hijacking the games

21:36

for the benefit of the greater good.

21:38

And that was a great trajectory to start with.

21:42

- So I'd love to take the conversation then

21:45

towards how it was done and how it was procured.

21:48

I mean, any big complex precinct

21:51

has lots of different stakeholders across different levels of government.

21:57

There's quite a lot of complexity around funding,

22:00

around getting people to act together

22:03

and unite them around common objectives.

22:07

I'm really interested in having a chat about how that came together in London.

22:13

Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. This is not going to be any different

22:17

in South East Queensland.

22:19

No one should underestimate the number of stakeholders

22:21

that are going to be involved. It's absolutely enormous.

22:24

Any single topic will attract dozens,

22:27

if not of different groups.

22:31

- Yeah, needed and unneeded.

22:34

- Yeah, exactly. And so there is an awful lot of praise,

22:39

a lot of time that needs to be spent almost behind the scenes,

22:44

aligning these individuals and groups,

22:47

trying to get them working to a common purpose

22:50

in different areas whether it's transport operations,

22:54

you know, you can imagine in London, all the taxi drivers, all the train operating companies,

22:59

all the bus fleets, as well as all the people,

23:02

you know, the people who are using cars and bikes.

23:05

And so just that one topic alone,

23:09

it needs some real thought

23:15

and some very, very clever people

23:20

who've got skills that can bring

23:23

those sort of constituencies together. So I definitely wouldn't underestimate it.

23:27

It will be, it's going to be a big, big challenge.

23:29

- Well, I think there was a great clarity

23:32

in the end of the day. You had the Olympic Delivery Authority

23:34

and you had the London Development Agency

23:36

and effectively they overlap, but then one handed over to the other

23:40

at the end of the London Development Agency

23:43

or a version of, it's still running with it really,

23:46

with that Olympic site still coming along.

23:48

- Yeah, London Legacy Development Company.

23:50

- That's it. - You had that entity and it was really,

23:53

again, comes down to leadership. It was actually pretty well led with some very good people.

23:57

You didn't have a bunch of local authorities

24:01

and then, I know, a city, a wider city authority

24:04

or a federal authority sort of duking it out

24:07

to see if you could get influence over the site.

24:10

You had a clear fulcrum in that client

24:13

for moving the legacy of the project forward.

24:15

And it's always had its moments because it's just tough and it's big and it's complicated.

24:19

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - That clear coalescing of a piece of responsibility

24:24

and leadership, I think, has made this more possible and better.

24:28

- And yeah, interestingly, I learned only yesterday

24:31

that it's pretty much into its final year.

24:35

So it was set up, I think, started running from 2013, 2012 probably,

24:40

just after the Games finished.

24:42

It's life, it had a determined life

24:45

and now all of the responsibilities that it took on,

24:50

mainly as a planning authority, that comes to an end

24:54

and all the responsibilities are handed back

24:56

to local boroughs in next year or something, next year.

24:59

- Planning and development? So as in development facilitation,

25:03

but not operational with any of the public spaces?

25:07

- All of it. No, well, they retained ownership

25:10

of a number of public areas.

25:14

They worked in partnership. You know, they partnered with private sector

25:19

to develop out some of the development platforms.

25:23

So that they shared part of the whole part of the thinking was

25:26

that the public sector recovered some of the,

25:31

or as much of the original investment and more

25:34

in the future success of the park. So they continued

25:37

there's that ongoing public involvement

25:42

with the future of the park and the development platforms all the way through to,

25:48

as I say, next year. - Yeah, and I think that's really interesting

25:51

in itself actually, because it was done with a view not to,

25:54

not to be in a state's management entity

25:56

in the end of the day and keep going. It was done to coalesce and clarify decision-making,

26:01

but also be that entity that would overlap with the constituent boroughs

26:05

that make up, surround and impact on them,

26:08

sort of impinge on that Olympic site and eventually hand it over to them.

26:11

So it becomes, and again, it sounds like the most normal, boring thing in the world,

26:14

but it becomes a normal piece of the city

26:17

and each borough gets handed over, the borough has something they can manage,

26:20

just like the existing stuff next door.

26:23

And it's about the beauty of normalisation, I think.

26:26

- Yeah, and it just settles back into the city.

26:28

- Exactly. - Yeah, yeah, that's very nice.

26:32

- The thing about the Olympic site in London, you know, it wasn't pretty, the stuff,

26:35

but that didn't matter. And London's a great city for dealing,

26:40

that deals with things that are kind of beyond beauty.

26:42

It wasn't about, this is beautiful, we should keep it, we should make it more beautiful.

26:45

It was about, this is interesting or this is part of our history

26:48

or this is part of our culture. Let's make sure we don't lose this.

26:52

And I would if I think around, you know, the Gabba in Brisbane, for example,

26:57

where there's going to be a lot of activity,

26:59

that's an old the Gabba, Kangaroo Point,

27:02

down to the cliffs and the views of the city and down to the river and all that kind of stuff.

27:06

And that's a really important part of the city of Brisbane.

27:09

It has a history to it and it has a, there's a lot of people that love

27:12

that part of the city dearly. And there's a thing that says to me,

27:17

at first point, let's not lose what we've got.

27:21

Let's not, let's make sure we're really clear

27:23

about what makes this part of Brisbane special and unique.

27:26

Let's make sure we keep that and then use it as a,

27:29

use it as a kind of, not as a constraint,

27:31

but an opportunity to push to rub against, to develop either Olympic venues, Olympic works,

27:38

and then the legacy beyond that. But it's got to start with what's,

27:42

it's sort of trying to very clearly connect history

27:44

to the future and not for me, wipe, wipe,

27:48

make a clean slate and then make something

27:50

that's shiny and new. That's not, that's not how cities really should evolve.

27:54

That's where cities start to lose their soul, actually.

27:57

Start doing that. There's many examples of that around the world.

27:59

And there's no need for Brisbane to do that.

28:01

It's got plenty to offer and plenty to keep.

28:04

- Yeah, I would fully endorse that.

28:06

And looking, thinking about London,

28:09

what, how did London materially bend,

28:12

or how did the UK materially benefit from the Games?

28:16

I mean, apart from great celebration

28:18

I think the, there's a huge synergy in terms of,

28:22

or similarity, I should say,

28:24

between the UK and Australia and my

28:27

both sports-loving sportsmen nations, which,

28:32

you know, whatever happens, it'll be a success, I'm sure, in Brisbane

28:36

because of that can-do attitude and just the love of sport that the country has.

28:43

But I think there was some fairly,

28:47

I guess, less well-advertised benefits

28:49

that were seen in the UK.

28:52

You know, there was a big change in attitude

28:55

in construction industry, which is notorious

28:57

in terms of the way it has failed

29:00

to really keep pace with modernization over the last 50 or 60 years.

29:04

So some big commitments to much more sustainable processes

29:09

in design and construction, which was really positive.

29:13

A step change, I would suggest, in inclusive design.

29:16

That was a big body of work.

29:19

It was London committed Sebastian Coe,

29:21

Lord Coe, I should say, rather more formally,

29:25

he committed it to this being the most accessible Games ever,

29:28

and there was a lot of work done to make sure it was.

29:31

A lot of work done on health and wellbeing.

29:34

You know, the park itself, one of the first,

29:37

in fact, the first big London park for a century,

29:39

I think, that was constructed to give more open space to people

29:43

and the movement and access we've already talked about.

29:45

I think Brisbane, Southeast Queensland

29:48

will have its own challenges in the country

29:51

in terms of some of those sorts of, yeah. - And we do, yeah.

29:53

- But I think on top of that,

29:56

I would go back to some of those two big,

29:58

for me, the two big challenges

30:00

that everyone faces, climate change

30:03

and it's already, we know the sort of it we've seen on the news,

30:08

the impacts that's happening in your part of the world.

30:11

So that's a big, big serious issue

30:14

to make sure it's being addressed underlying the development of the Games.

30:20

And AI and technology.

30:22

The way the Olympics itself as an event

30:26

is transmitted and enjoyed by billions of people

30:30

across the globe is going to be totally different to the way London was and the way Rio was.

30:34

It's technology going to transform how we see,

30:38

view and enjoy these sorts of sporting events.

30:42

Also at the same time is a big game changer

30:45

in terms of employment opportunity. You know, certainly I know Australia is focusing a lot

30:51

on its new tech industries and this is a big opportunity

30:54

to start to embed technology, AI

30:57

into the fabric of Southeast Queensland.

31:01

- What I've heard and what we've discussed

31:04

and the things that I think we can,

31:06

that might help us think about our own precincts

31:10

around our venues. First of all, I loved what you said about

31:16

understanding the gravity of the moment as in the hugeness of the opportunity

31:21

and a kind of a collective determination

31:24

to make the best of it.

31:26

I think that sort of fundamental starting point

31:29

is really important, but you've also spoken and referred to several times

31:34

throughout this conversation

31:36

about the critical role of strong leadership

31:40

around a bold idea underpinned by long-term thinking.

31:44

I mean, we could use the word vision, but you've really talked about boldness

31:48

in setting the course and sticking with it

31:52

and bringing people together around it.

31:54

So a certain amount of political will and leadership seems to be an incredibly important part

32:01

of what was delivered there

32:03

and the ability to help coordinate the efforts

32:07

of the different levels of government. Valuing the legacy, and I hadn't been aware

32:11

that there was a legacy development authority

32:13

for after the game. So having the wherewithal to make sure

32:18

that that promise is really delivered on

32:21

over the longer time.

32:23

And then you also mentioned valuing the intrinsic qualities

32:27

of what makes the city unique

32:29

and making sure that gets built in and that you're not making something separate,

32:34

that you're making something that's very meshed

32:38

into its setting and makes that setting more accessible

32:42

and improves the quality of the areas

32:46

outside of that setting as well. So I think there's some incredibly helpful thoughts there,

32:52

things that we can take forward as we go further into this design and planning phase

32:58

of the Brisbane '32 Olympic and Paralympic Games.

33:02

So thank you to our guests, Andrew Comer and Ashley Munday for their time.

33:07

- Caroline, thank you very much indeed. - And thank you to our listeners.

33:10

We know you're as passionate about the role design plays

33:13

in creating a beautiful, resilient and inclusive future as we are.

33:19

And thank you, Prue Vincent and Michelle Bailey

33:22

who produced this episode. I'm Caroline Stalker.

33:26

You've been listening to an episode of Hassle Talks.

33:29

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