3:37

i don't think it comes and

4:00

black pays a part in that. For

4:03

instance, I'm a bus driver, so when

4:05

there's announcements over the radio and they're

4:08

looking for a missing person, for

4:10

example, they'll

4:12

say, right, the person is described

4:14

as a black male or IC3,

4:17

wearing black trainers, denim

4:20

blue jeans, and

4:24

a jeans jacket. Now,

4:30

where's the separation between the black

4:32

trainers and the black person? Do

4:35

you know what I mean? Yeah,

4:37

you're using the word person and

4:39

trainers, but it's still black, so

4:41

ideally in your head or say

4:44

they're listening to that, they're

4:46

just going to hear the word black and they're not going to have any

4:50

separation with that. Do you know what

4:52

I mean? So yeah, I've

4:54

probably gone on a little bit, but I'd just

4:56

like to know your opinion on the word black

4:58

because I feel it's a huge problem.

5:01

And if you've seen the movie Cry

5:04

of Freedom with Denzel

5:06

Washington, there's a part when

5:08

they're in the court and

5:10

the judge asks him why he refers

5:12

to himself as black. So

5:15

yeah, let me know what you think. Jason

5:21

came for the jugular with that one

5:23

there and I appreciate it, bro. I

5:25

really, really appreciate it. Here's why.

5:28

I've also struggled with the word black throughout

5:30

my life. I went through

5:32

a phase where I completely rejected it.

5:34

I saw it as a Eurocentric flattening

5:36

of our range and our

5:39

beauty and our diversity. So

5:42

I rejected it on those grounds until

5:45

I realized two things. Firstly,

5:48

black means different

5:50

things to different people of

5:52

African descent. People

5:55

identify with that word for different reasons. So

5:59

me personally? I love when black

6:01

people from the diaspora identify

6:03

as African, but

6:06

at the same time, I understand

6:08

when they don't. I

6:11

will always see black people as

6:13

Africans, but I'm respectful

6:16

of those who feel so removed

6:18

from the African experience from the

6:20

land and who feel

6:22

so rooted in what their ancestors have

6:24

built up wherever they've settled,

6:26

wherever they've ended up voluntarily or

6:28

not. Recently,

6:30

there was a controversy around the South

6:32

African artist, Tyler. She's had a big

6:35

ear. She's had a big tune. And

6:38

African Americans couldn't wrap their head around the

6:40

fact that she didn't identify as black. You're

6:45

not going to like this, Jason. She actually

6:47

identified as a word that many

6:49

people in the West would feel is a lot worse than

6:51

black. She would describe herself

6:53

as colored. In

6:58

her South African context, colored

7:01

means mixed race. Big

7:05

argument online over Tyler and saying that,

7:07

you know, why would you call yourself

7:09

colored? That's not, but again, you're talking

7:11

from an American perspective. You got to

7:13

respect that people have their

7:15

experience that they're bringing to the table.

7:19

Believe it or not, that was point number

7:21

one. Point number two is that

7:23

when I went back and I checked for it, black

7:26

as a category re-emerged

7:29

as a response to the

7:31

civil rights movement where

7:33

African Americans started reclaiming

7:37

their own identity. But

7:41

when I look at it, yeah, black

7:43

in that context was all

7:45

about standing up and rejecting the previous

7:47

term that was all over the civil

7:50

rights movement. Negro. When

7:53

Malcolm X went on his international tour,

7:55

I think in 1964, and he visited

7:57

Africa. He

8:00

was told straight up, we don't do that word Negro,

8:02

you know, you better find a different word.

8:07

Right, but that was an education for him because

8:10

where he was from, if you listen to Malcolm's

8:12

speeches before 1964, the

8:15

word Negro is just interchangeable with African

8:17

American or black. So,

8:19

yeah, I also respect the

8:22

struggle and I respect that black

8:24

became a rallying cry. It became

8:26

an umbrella term for everyone who

8:28

was trying to break free

8:30

of the shackles of slavery and

8:32

colonialism in the American

8:34

and hence Western experience. Thank

8:37

you for your question, bro. George,

8:41

quick question. How can I at work

8:44

help young males, particularly

8:47

those from ethnic backgrounds, be

8:50

able to talk about how they're feeling and maybe

8:53

why they don't trust authority

8:56

in education, even when that authority

8:58

looks like them. Some

9:00

are better than others, but I'm

9:02

curious. We've

9:06

got a big up actually for that question and

9:08

for his work on the front lines. Actually,

9:11

thank you very much for putting yourself

9:13

in a position to influence those of

9:15

our young people that feel ostracized and

9:17

feel suspicious of authority, as you said.

9:21

That's quite a deep one, man. That's quite a deep

9:23

one. And I would say that you're doing the first

9:25

thing that is needed. You're showing

9:27

up regularly in their lives. I

9:31

don't think that there is anyone that

9:33

can come and expect to engage

9:35

people in that kind of position once

9:39

or twice throughout a year and

9:41

have a lasting impact. If you do, that's

9:43

great. But I don't think there's

9:45

any substitute for consistently showing

9:47

up in the life of a young

9:49

person. Secondly, I

9:52

hope this podcast can provide a medium

9:56

for you to reach out to the young people that you work with

9:59

something to say. this ain't the curriculum,

10:01

this isn't from your parents, this is just

10:03

out there in the world, this is a

10:05

piece of art by someone from the same

10:07

world as you. What

10:10

I find is that it's impossible to really

10:12

talk about our position

10:14

in society and our ability to take

10:17

control of our lives and our communities,

10:19

it's impossible to talk about that if

10:21

you ain't talking about the structures that

10:23

shape our decisions. So

10:26

I would recommend listening to

10:29

episode four, it's

10:31

on us, with you know any

10:33

one of those young people. I would

10:36

also recommend listening to episode

10:38

nine, Sabrina's boy, definitely

10:41

recommend listening to the hold of chapter

10:43

four. The reason

10:45

I single out those episodes is because in

10:49

each of them I deal with

10:51

authority, in episode

10:53

four it's on us, we talk

10:56

about policing and how institutionally the

10:59

dynamic between the police and

11:01

the black community in particular has

11:04

had so much trauma that

11:06

it has led to a mutual suspicion

11:09

that we never get to unpack as a

11:12

community. So that's one thing when it comes

11:14

to Sabrina's boy obviously I talk about the

11:16

life and times of 50 cent and I

11:18

talk about how the failures

11:21

of Ronald Reagan's

11:23

government led the whole

11:25

generation of kids like 50 cent

11:27

who grew up in inner city

11:29

black America from the 70s to

11:31

the 80s it led a lot

11:34

of them down the path of if

11:36

not drug abuse, drug dealing and

11:39

the criminal justice system. I

11:42

hope that that can be a crutch that you

11:44

can lean on but really

11:46

and truly I doubt there's

11:48

much I can tell you you are on the

11:50

front lines you're doing some of the most meaningful

11:52

work in our society and we owe

11:54

you for that thank you. Nobody

11:59

really knows like the complex, complex

12:01

history that lies behind some of these

12:03

things that are happening and how deeply

12:05

embedded they are in things that are

12:07

hidden and things like paintings. Because obviously

12:09

studying art history and studying a lot

12:11

of art and often times I

12:13

look at a painting from like, you

12:15

know, 15th, 14th century Italy and I see

12:17

like a black person in the painting, one

12:20

black person and nobody ever talks about that

12:22

particular character. Just because

12:24

nobody wants to unpack the history of that

12:26

character being in an Italian painting during

12:28

this time when global imperial expansion

12:30

was happening, I literally

12:33

just made, I was like this is so

12:35

important because I often feel like my artist

12:37

is so good at pursuing this Zimbabwean woman,

12:39

I'm Shauna, you know, it's awkward. Everyone's

12:42

like why are you studying art history, like why?

12:45

And I'm like you guys would never

12:47

understand but it's important because these histories,

12:49

these histories are hidden but these histories,

12:52

they've given me such clarity as to what's happening now.

12:55

And I feel like it just started in the 18th,

12:57

19th century. It's

12:59

been there, you know, it's been there. What

13:01

was the black woman doing being the concubine

13:04

of a cardinal? How and why

13:06

did she get there? In the 14th century when we

13:08

know that in the 12th and 13th, going

13:10

to the 14th century was when this conflict

13:13

was really happening between

13:15

certain parts of Africa and the West and

13:17

trade was becoming a whole different exploiting thing like,

13:19

you know, before I even go ahead. But

13:21

you know what your podcast really, really, it

13:24

puts a mind like mine at ease

13:27

because I feel like I'm not the only one who has a

13:29

mind that races at 3000 miles an hour. It

13:32

helps me know that I can breathe and

13:35

eventually maybe these things that

13:37

I have in my head, I'll be able to put them

13:39

down somewhere and they'll be heard by somebody

13:41

the way I'm hearing your podcast. That

13:45

message was like music to my ears.

13:48

First of all, big up courage, beautiful

13:50

name. You're from a strong people. The

13:52

sonna I've been learning more and more about you

13:55

guys and might even feature in the next

13:57

chapter of the podcast. But.

14:00

Your name is appropriate because it does take

14:02

courage to enter a

14:05

discipline, an academic discipline that might feel

14:07

colonized, and it might feel like it

14:09

is biased towards a certain perspective, and

14:11

the people around you might not understand

14:13

why you are studying art history. But

14:16

you've just given me, and hopefully all

14:18

the listeners, a great explanation of why

14:21

art history is so revealing and so

14:23

important. As you might

14:25

know, I initially thought I was going to

14:27

become a politician, but I chose to continue

14:29

with the artistic path that I started from

14:31

the age of about 14. And

14:34

the reason I did this was because of

14:36

a lot of what you just described, Courage.

14:40

There's so much layering and

14:42

so much context behind art

14:44

that if we look closely

14:47

enough at what we are

14:49

seeing in a piece of art, or

14:51

in the case of this audio

14:53

series, if we listen closer to

14:56

some of the music that has come out of

14:58

the black world, we can

15:00

get context, we can get insight that

15:02

just isn't available in a lot of

15:04

the writing, a lot of the text.

15:07

Once again, thank you. Yo,

15:10

George, listen man. That

15:13

60s podcast man, wow, wow, wow.

15:18

So many nuggets inside there man that

15:21

I just wish that there can be

15:23

something like this that we could play for

15:25

kids inside

15:27

schools for black history. Yeah,

15:31

and I know the messages are inside

15:33

the songs, but just a

15:35

package like this would be fantastic man. I've

15:38

learned so much of historic

15:40

things that I can relate

15:42

to and understand in a better way just

15:46

by listening to your podcast. Obviously,

15:49

I'm 36 years old in

15:52

school, none of this was taught to us. And

15:54

obviously, you can't just blame the scores. You've

15:57

got to do your own research now and then. stuff

16:00

just gets to my mind so

16:02

easy. And

16:04

it's just made me think like, I wanna know

16:07

what my grandfather did. I

16:09

wanna know what my dad did. I'm

16:11

lucky enough to still have my mom and dad around, but me

16:14

and my dad never had that relationship where I was sitting

16:16

down sitting dead. Who are

16:19

you and who are your parents? And

16:21

I think I'm gonna have that conversation now. Cause

16:23

I wanna teach my son as well about Ghana. I'm

16:26

in a mixed relationship. So

16:30

my partner's white and obviously I'm

16:32

black from Ghana. And

16:34

Theo just wants to know, Theo's my son. He just

16:36

wants to know so much about Ghana. Sometimes I'm just

16:38

like, wow, ask your granddad, ask your granddad, but I

16:40

need to give him that knowledge cause he wants to

16:42

know now when their minds are like this, it's

16:45

thriving, they wanna know where they are and where they're

16:47

coming. So yeah, anyway,

16:49

podcast was fantastic man. It was wicked.

16:53

That interview with your grandfather, man,

16:56

that's magic. It

16:58

makes me think like, what are people gonna

17:01

be listening to in the next 60 years? And

17:03

I 100% know they're gonna be listening to your

17:05

podcast, man. They're

17:07

truly inspirational. Just keep doing what you're doing.

17:10

I'm just blown. My mind

17:12

is blown by that 60s episode. I

17:14

mean, I didn't even comment on the

17:17

Mavado one and the Back to You

17:19

G, them two are fantastic as well.

17:21

It just shows you that there's so many things that

17:23

are going on that is just being swept under

17:25

the carpet and now you listen to what you've said and

17:28

listen and look at what

17:30

people are doing. The whole cycle is

17:33

repeating itself. And it's just

17:35

like, wow, like, he listened to natives as

17:37

well from like Fakada's book, I listened to

17:39

that. And it's like the

17:42

same things are happening from when he was in

17:44

school was that. You go to schools now you

17:46

ask kids, what do you wanna be, a footballer

17:48

or rapper? Because that's what's being put on a

17:50

pinnacle for everyone. Which is great, don't get me

17:52

wrong. Some people need to do that, but are

17:54

you limiting our children to just

17:56

being music artists and... and

18:00

a sportsman when they could be

18:02

engineers, they can make the

18:04

new, I don't know, next solar powered car

18:06

or something. I don't know, man, but wow,

18:11

wow. Anyway, this has gone over three

18:13

minutes now, man, sorry. Keep

18:16

doing what you do, man. And yeah, I can't

18:18

wait for the next one. Well done. My

18:23

guy, my like Josh, I know I say

18:26

my guy, I don't know any of these

18:28

respondents personally, but that's how close

18:30

I feel to you guys when you take the

18:32

time to listen to what I'm saying and give

18:34

me this kind of feedback. So firstly, I wanna

18:37

thank you really for your focus on

18:39

the 60s. Thank

18:41

you also for appreciating the interview that

18:44

my grandfather gave in the context of the 1966

18:46

Uganda crisis. I

18:50

mentioned on the previous episode, the

18:53

passing of my grandma, which is now, you

18:55

know, it's still fresh, but

18:57

what I didn't mention on that episode was that this

19:00

is the grandma who was married to

19:03

the amazing man that you heard on episode 24,

19:06

the 60s. That

19:10

was my father's father, Andrew Frederick

19:12

Mpanga. And yes,

19:15

just listening to his voice, I never got to meet

19:17

him, he passed when my father was young, but

19:20

getting to hear his voice, already

19:22

that was a little insight into how much

19:25

exposure he had

19:27

to an English context, a

19:29

kind of colonial education, just

19:32

his accent and the way he articulated himself

19:34

was an education in itself for me. Which

19:37

brings me onto my next point. I

19:40

appreciate you mentioning Theo, big up Theo, big up

19:42

your son, big up any other kids that you

19:44

might have and his

19:47

thirst to understand Ghana.

19:50

Brother, I wanna encourage you while

19:52

you still have time, make

19:55

him sit down and talk to your father.

19:58

There's nothing like... your

20:01

grandparents' perspective. Because

20:04

we are, you know,

20:06

funneled into an education system

20:10

that prioritizes certain methods

20:12

of acquiring information, we

20:16

downplay, or we might take for granted,

20:18

the other methods of acquiring information that

20:20

are available to us. You

20:23

know, RIP, Jajama, grandma just

20:25

passed, but while Theo's

20:28

granddad is alive, he needs to be in

20:30

constant conversation and you are the perfect bridge.

20:33

You know the things to tease out of

20:35

both of them that will

20:37

allow for a conversation that will

20:40

plant a seed hopefully in Theo's

20:42

heart and allow him to grow

20:44

with an understanding of his

20:46

place in the world. On

20:49

that note, I really highly recommend a

20:51

book by a man called Kojo Karam.

20:53

I recommend this book to everyone. I

20:55

recommended it in prison the other day.

20:58

It is called Uncommon Wealth.

21:02

It is all about Britain

21:05

and the British Empire and the end of

21:07

the Empire and the

21:09

methods that Britain developed to

21:11

maintain control of its former

21:13

colonies. But he

21:16

opens with an anecdote about

21:18

his grandfather, his Ghanaian grandfather.

21:20

Kojo Karam. And

21:22

what he explains was that when he was

21:24

young, his grandfather

21:27

had frosty reaction

21:31

to Ghanaian independence celebrations because

21:33

his grandfather didn't believe Ghana

21:35

was truly independent. He

21:38

also explains, Kojo explains, and

21:40

Kojo's about your age actually, he's just a few

21:43

years older than me. He

21:45

explains how when he was young

21:47

he went to Uganda. I'm talking about my life,

21:49

this is what happened to me. Parallel

21:52

experience, when he was young he went to Ghana

21:54

and he enjoyed the life but he was

21:56

also shocked by the poverty and he had

21:59

all these questions. and he tried

22:01

to ask his grandfather and his grandfather

22:03

was a little bit cagey but ultimately

22:05

his rooting in Ghanaian society from a

22:07

young age, just those little trips he

22:09

used to take as a kid, enabled

22:12

him to have a

22:14

perspective on Africa and its relation

22:16

to Britain that would really open

22:18

his mind and allow him to

22:21

better understand what his

22:23

grandfather was feeling, those conflicted

22:25

emotions around the so-called independence

22:27

of Ghana. So thank

22:29

you again for your message. George,

22:33

hey, I've

22:35

listened to your podcasts almost back to

22:37

back over the past few weeks.

22:41

I stumbled across them through some random tweets.

22:44

To say I'm taken is

22:46

literally an understatement but

22:50

in spite of or because of that

22:53

it means I have a question to ask. George,

22:57

regarding the task that I feel I have in

22:59

hand, but first a

23:01

bit about me. I think

23:04

that you understand your firm base

23:06

demographically and perhaps

23:08

I know what your typical listener is like.

23:11

Well, it's not me. I'm

23:14

uneducated, 55, British and white.

23:18

I have to add you see, but I'm sure you

23:20

already know that for those of my generation, if

23:23

you're working class there was a lot of chance of

23:25

education. Anyway,

23:28

in fact, a little aside, George, my

23:30

dad once put me to see my GP. He

23:33

said I read too much and

23:35

there was something seriously wrong with me. The

23:38

GP laughed. I'd have

23:40

been about eight, but George, for

23:42

me, that was no joke. That

23:44

was my reality. Anyway,

23:49

this leads me on to one question I want to ask. How

23:51

come if you're working class and black, how

23:54

come parents or some parents or

23:56

most parents see future? for

24:00

their kids with education. How

24:03

come there's aspiration? How come

24:06

the kids are pushed and tried? Whereas

24:08

if you're working class British and white, early

24:11

marriage is high on the list. Was it my

24:13

day to be a wife and have two kids?

24:17

Not in the past, not now, not

24:19

in any generation of white working

24:21

class British people put a value on education.

24:24

And George, from my point of

24:26

view, yes, of course, of course,

24:29

Africans had their land and labour stolen, but

24:32

my demographic did too. The

24:34

difference? My people

24:37

didn't even know that theft

24:39

had taken place. How

24:41

come there's a disparity between the races? Is

24:44

it displacement that's caused it? By

24:48

becoming deus bora, did Africans

24:50

become more aware? Well,

24:52

the white British working class stayed in

24:54

one place, and although they were

24:56

robbed bare, they bought into a

24:59

system without question that

25:01

left them poor disenfranchised and with

25:03

no education. So if

25:07

I want to bring change for my people, how

25:09

can it be done? How

25:11

can they be made to grapple their realities? And

25:14

all they do is watch reality TV. Forget

25:17

change even. How

25:19

can they be made aware of their

25:21

exploitation? When they're

25:23

so bought into a system that exploits others?

25:27

Black people have achieved unity and consciousness,

25:30

as you say, by vibration,

25:32

by music and sound. Now

25:35

just look around, show me

25:37

one achievement of people

25:39

like me. Massive

25:43

thanks to Alison. Thank

25:45

you for sharing your experience of

25:48

being denied the opportunity to have

25:50

the education that you wanted. Part

25:53

of the influence on this podcast

25:55

was me working with groups in

25:57

the community who are also early

25:59

on. alienated from formal education. I

26:03

wanted this podcast to act like a supplement

26:05

for people in your position, people

26:07

that never got a chance to school the

26:09

way they wanted to school. The

26:12

point that you made about Africans

26:16

and their understanding of oppression versus

26:20

white working class people and their understanding

26:22

will maybe lack thereof. I

26:24

found that a fascinating point and it's something

26:26

that I only really started to wrap my

26:29

head around in the past year

26:31

or so. For

26:33

anyone who doesn't know there was a movement

26:35

between the 1500s and the 1600s

26:40

wherein land that used to

26:42

be available to the English

26:45

peasantry started being

26:47

privatized. There

26:50

was no concept of private land in

26:52

this way before that moment.

26:55

There were lords that

26:58

were given land by the king. So

27:01

English peasants used to graze their cows

27:03

and their domesticated animals on

27:06

the fields that were available to the public.

27:11

The enclosure movement as it is called

27:13

just changed all of that. Certain

27:16

farmers and certain peasants who were fortunate enough

27:18

to build up their

27:20

own savings and acquire land for themselves, they

27:23

formed a new class. People

27:25

that used to survive by cultivating

27:27

the land, those

27:30

people all of a sudden they were ripped

27:32

away from the land. They were ripped away

27:34

from their source of sustenance. And

27:36

now they had to find work. Work

27:41

meant free wage labor. So

27:44

now I have to go and sell my ability to

27:46

work to whoever has the money to pay me. That's

27:49

a new level of insecurity. People

27:53

used to get their food from the ground. Now they

27:55

have to get it through wages because they have no

27:57

ground to rely on. That

28:01

was a trauma in English society that

28:03

is not fully understood. I had never

28:05

heard this story until I read a

28:07

book called Blood and Money by a

28:09

guy called David McNally. So

28:12

Alison raises a good point. A lot of

28:14

English people don't realize how badly they've been

28:16

shafted out of what was

28:19

their heritage. Now

28:22

the next point that you raised was also very

28:24

interesting to me and I can't speak to this.

28:27

So the idea that in the

28:29

white working class there isn't as strong

28:31

a sense of a value

28:33

of education and maybe

28:35

there's not as strong a sense of

28:38

achievement and accomplishment. I

28:41

can't speak to that. So these are not

28:43

my thoughts. I don't know if that is

28:46

the consensus across the white working class.

28:48

What I do know is that a

28:51

lot of the struggles across Britain,

28:53

the struggle to advance democracy came

28:56

from grassroots movements, came from working

28:58

people saying I'm sick of this. I'm fed

29:00

up. I deserve a vote. We deserve a

29:02

vote. When I think

29:05

about the Corn Laws and I think about

29:07

the Chartist movement from the 1800s,

29:09

I feel like those were working class

29:11

uprisings to say, listen, we can't just

29:13

be pushed around. Moving

29:17

on to Alison's final

29:19

point that I found fascinating, maybe

29:22

the African diaspora by the fact that we

29:25

were made a diaspora, maybe that

29:27

woke us up to our reality. I

29:31

do feel like a lot of white people, a lot of black

29:33

people, a lot of people around the world, but definitely in

29:36

the West, there's not a robust

29:38

understanding of how the loss of

29:40

empire and the outsourcing

29:42

of the production capacity, i.e.

29:44

the ability to make things.

29:47

The fact that that was outsourced to the

29:49

global South and to the poor countries of

29:51

the world, leading

29:54

to what is called de-industrialization,

29:57

where whole swaths

29:59

of the British. public, lost their

30:01

employment. We all know about the loss

30:03

of the mining industry in

30:05

the north of England and

30:07

the manufacturing industries in

30:09

general. I do

30:12

feel like Britain and the West have

30:14

not come to terms with these things

30:16

and it has a deleterious effect on

30:19

the white working classes who are

30:21

unable, increasingly unable to sustain themselves

30:23

in the way that their grandparents

30:25

once would. I

30:27

was inspired by your message Alison, thank

30:30

you very much. I

30:32

appreciate your views

30:35

and your appreciation

30:38

of the

30:41

impact that music has had

30:43

on the black community in

30:45

terms of giving it a voice

30:48

and an opportunity to create business

30:50

and get people out of

30:52

the so-called ends, the getters.

30:55

I felt like what you

30:57

were doing here was really

31:00

pigeon-holding black

31:03

people as performers

31:05

and creators and saying this

31:07

is your opportunity rather than

31:10

really being relatively restrictive

31:12

at a surprise time. I

31:18

feel Jeremy's

31:22

critique is valid

31:25

if all I'm saying is that black

31:28

people can only do music. So

31:30

let's just stick to that. There

31:33

is a long-running trope about black

31:35

people and entertaining and sports and

31:37

the idea that that is our

31:39

role in society, that is our

31:41

contribution to society. I

31:44

completely denounced that trope and

31:46

I hope I embody through my

31:48

work, through my career and through

31:50

the academic angle that I've taken

31:52

in this podcast, I hope I

31:54

embody the counter argument. I hope

31:56

I can show you that even

31:59

if I am good at rhyming, even if

32:01

I am good at entertaining, that doesn't

32:03

stop me from being a scholar, it doesn't stop

32:05

me from being a political commentator or a historian.

32:09

But that's me. I don't want to

32:11

individualize this. I

32:13

hope to represent a

32:15

new way of approaching

32:18

our potential. So

32:20

if I can take you guys back to episode one, I

32:25

did say that this podcast

32:27

was inspired by the fact

32:29

that we have a multi-billion

32:31

dollar storytelling industry in the

32:33

form of black music. Yet

32:36

the communities that create this music do

32:40

not see the development, do not see

32:42

the economic trajectory that the music

32:44

sees. That's

32:46

always bothered me. Now,

32:50

Jeremy's reading, in

32:52

fact, let me talk to you, Jeremy, your

32:54

reading of my message is

32:57

slightly incomplete. There's

32:59

a difference between saying all

33:02

black people can do is make music and

33:04

saying there is

33:06

a track record of black

33:09

music transcending its economic starting

33:11

point, captivating the imaginations

33:13

of people outside of the black

33:15

experience and doing

33:17

that generation after generation in

33:21

ways that respond to society.

33:26

That's my point. If

33:28

we own our music and I don't

33:30

just mean we own the Masters. I don't just mean

33:32

in a material sense. I mean in

33:35

a conceptual sense. If we

33:37

only decide to make music about

33:39

things that matter to us, things

33:41

that are edifying for our people,

33:43

things that speak to our histories

33:45

and our challenges. If we only

33:47

decide to make music about that,

33:51

what more could this music achieve? How

33:55

much further could we go? But

33:58

I take your point not to. pigeonhole

34:00

our young people and say that all we can

34:02

do is music and just take an

34:04

ownership of the fact that we love music and

34:07

we're really, really good at it. Thank

34:09

you. My

34:12

bro, what can I say man? Firstly,

34:15

let me say as you know, I'm

34:17

sure you know this by the podcast

34:19

is incredible man, absolutely love it man,

34:22

absolutely love it. Came across it last

34:24

year. One of my friends suggested

34:27

it to me and kept going on and on and on

34:29

about it and when I listened, I think

34:32

I'm hooked man, I've been listening to

34:34

it throughout the whole year whilst I'm

34:36

working, whilst I'm walking and in fact

34:38

next week I'm away with a youth

34:40

group that I also coordinate

34:42

and run with some other God bless

34:45

people and I'll

34:47

be using some of the excerpts to

34:49

teach some of the young men about

34:51

vulnerability, teach them about black exploitation, might

34:54

even touch on some of the Movado and Vibes cartel

34:56

as well because that's been my favorite episode so

34:59

far. But bro keep doing what you're

35:01

doing man, that's incredible man, we love it man, ignore

35:03

all the negativity if you hear it. I don't see

35:05

any but ignore it man because for

35:07

what it's worth to people that is touching, it's

35:10

making an impact bro, it's making an impact man, keep

35:12

doing what you're doing bro, much love. Gabriel,

35:17

much, much love bro, thank you very much

35:19

for that message right there, that one you

35:21

can probably hear is put a smile on

35:23

my face. I

35:25

feel sorry for your friend who recommended the

35:27

podcast to you and now you've ended up

35:30

on the podcast but big them up too

35:32

because you know each one reach one, each

35:34

one teach one. In

35:37

terms of yeah you using

35:39

it to talk to some of

35:42

your young people about vulnerability, I would love

35:44

to know how that went, I love hearing

35:46

how people use this work

35:49

to you know reach out to

35:51

other people and try and have constructive

35:53

conversations, that's my number one dream when

35:55

it comes to this work. So

35:58

thank you, yeah man I hope you're I

36:00

think it's the best chapter so

36:02

far, personally. But yeah

36:05

man, let me know, tap in. Bye.

36:08

Hey George, I had to give

36:10

it some thought in terms of what voice note to send

36:13

you. It's not easy uploading

36:15

thoughts, and even

36:17

less so deciding on a single one. But

36:19

there is one thought I keep having now and then. It's

36:22

about the fact that the world is

36:24

in such a messed up place right now where

36:28

almost anyone can make themselves heard through

36:30

social media, which you

36:32

think is a good thing. But

36:34

in my opinion, the

36:36

world doesn't really know how to listen. And

36:39

worst of all, they're not best

36:41

at deciding who to listen to. I

36:45

guess it's easier to listen only to the

36:47

people you agree with, but that's

36:49

not always in your best interest, or

36:52

the world's best interest. But

36:54

that being said, I do love what you do. I

36:56

think you've learned your voice, and I hope

36:59

you use it well, and I hope it serves you well. And

37:02

hopefully, through what you do

37:04

and what your listeners will do, maybe

37:07

we can fix some things, huh? Yes,

37:12

Stefan, we can fix some things. Thank you

37:15

so much for your message, bro. Where

37:17

do I even start? I fret

37:20

over this quite a lot. I have some

37:22

angst about people's ability

37:24

to listen, and

37:27

what exactly it is that allows

37:29

people to decipher

37:33

coded messages and decide

37:36

who is a trustworthy source. It

37:38

bothers me. Again, this was part

37:40

of the impetus behind creating the podcast.

37:42

I wanted to encourage all of my

37:45

listeners to embrace

37:47

critical thought, to

37:49

embrace analysis of history. I

37:53

wanted to make it popular. I wanted

37:55

to make it easy. I wanted to

37:57

make it un-intimidating for the exact

37:59

reason. reasons that you're saying. A lot

38:02

of people are not good at listening and I

38:04

think that is a behavior that

38:06

becomes entrenched early on in life.

38:09

I always used to find it confusing

38:11

that our education system, at least in

38:14

Britain, didn't mandate, it

38:16

didn't make it mandatory to

38:18

have critical thinking lessons

38:20

and humanity studies,

38:22

especially sociological analysis. I found

38:25

it weird. I found

38:27

I always thought like, wouldn't

38:29

Britain function better as a democracy

38:31

if more people had some of

38:33

these flaws? I no

38:36

longer believe it's a coincidence. I do believe keeping

38:39

the masses confused, keeping

38:41

the masses at each other's necks

38:44

and unable to analyze

38:47

the structures that shape their lives

38:50

in a way that builds solidarity rather

38:52

than creates division. I think that is

38:54

an important tool of the ruling class

38:56

to be honest with you. I

38:59

can only help people along that journey by

39:03

creating this material and

39:05

inviting others to do the same. You know this

39:07

isn't just about me, this is

39:09

about providing a blueprint for the generation

39:12

after me, the next generation of content

39:14

creators, poets, podcasters,

39:17

social commentators. Hopefully

39:20

we normalize, we normalize

39:23

social analysis, we normalize

39:25

structural analysis, textual analysis,

39:27

discourse analysis, normalized

39:29

analysis is what I'm really going

39:31

for. So you

39:34

know by applying yourself, by

39:37

addressing yourself to the problems of the world, you

39:40

will be better off and

39:44

that's something that we have to promote on a cultural level bro.

39:49

It can't all be on the teachers, can't

39:51

all be on the national curriculum or

39:54

the parents, it's got to

39:56

be normalized on a cultural level. is

40:00

why we made Conan ground. This

40:30

episode was freestyle by me recorded

40:33

by my guy Isaac Kolema and

40:35

produced by myself and

40:38

Bembrick. Thank you for listening.