0:00

Wonderful to have you with us

0:02

for Here and Now Anytime, where

0:04

we bring you news to keep

0:06

you up to date and music,

0:08

arts and culture for some time

0:10

to reflect. So go ahead, subscribe,

0:13

follow and share. Let's

0:15

get started. How does he

0:17

get out of this war? How does he

0:19

save his legacy? How does he save his

0:21

political future? How does he save himself from going

0:23

to prison? Israeli Prime

0:25

Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. What's

0:28

driving his leadership now? And

0:30

what does it mean for ceasefire talks?

0:37

Today is

0:40

Wednesday, June

0:42

19th. It's

0:44

June 10th from

0:46

NPR, NWBUR Boston. Welcome

0:49

to Here and Now Anytime. I'm

0:51

Shirley Jihad. Today on our

0:54

show, one of the most dynamic

0:56

players in baseball history, Hall of

0:58

Famer Willie Mays has died at

1:00

age 93. We

1:02

have a remembrance coming. Then

1:04

we look at ways to

1:07

celebrate and honor Juneteenth, our

1:09

newest national holiday. Now

1:11

I think about it in terms

1:13

of, you know, how do

1:15

I want to claim my

1:18

own freedom? How do I want

1:20

to express that? Now,

1:22

thousands of Israelis protested this

1:25

week outside the home of

1:27

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu demanding

1:29

early elections, a ceasefire in

1:31

Gaza and the release of

1:33

Israeli hostages. President

1:36

Biden has suggested Netanyahu is prolonging

1:38

the war in Gaza for political

1:40

reasons. Netanyahu is the

1:42

longest serving prime minister of Israel.

1:45

What are his motivations at this point

1:47

as ceasefire talks are underway? Natan

1:50

Gutman is Washington correspondent for

1:52

Israel Public Broadcasting and

1:55

a political columnist for Moment

1:57

Magazine, an independent Jewish publication.

2:00

He talks with David Folkenflick. Netanyahu

2:02

is the defining figure in modern Israeli

2:05

history. He's the nation's longest serving prime

2:07

minister, and you write about him pretty

2:09

much every day. What questions

2:11

do you have left about Netanyahu after all

2:14

these years? I think Netanyahu

2:16

has evolved throughout his many, many

2:18

years in Israeli politics. He started

2:21

off as this great new hope

2:23

of conservative Israel. And

2:25

as the years went by, he

2:28

evolved into a very isolated leader,

2:30

a leader who is involved with

2:32

several criminal cases that are hanging

2:34

against him. He's clearly

2:37

in his final chapter of his political

2:39

career. How does he end it? How

2:41

does he get out of this war?

2:43

How does he save his legacy?

2:45

How does he save his political future? How

2:47

does he save himself from going to prison?

2:50

So how would you answer those questions

2:52

for him? Well, I think it's

2:55

complicated. I'm not sure Netanyahu right now has

2:57

an endgame in mind because

2:59

polls are showing

3:01

that even Israelis who supported him

3:04

before, and he's been struggling for

3:06

a while, after October

3:08

7th, after the Hamas attack and the

3:10

Gaza war that started, Netanyahu

3:12

lost most of his support.

3:14

There is no real political

3:16

scenario right now, which keeps

3:19

him in power. So I think

3:21

he's trying to figure out now a

3:23

position in which he can

3:25

manage this war under his

3:28

terms, meaning not to finish

3:30

it before he feels this

3:32

very elusive goal of completely

3:34

defeating Hamas is achieved.

3:37

And maybe he has this hope that

3:39

if this happens and if the hostages

3:42

come home and Israel somehow returns to

3:44

a state of normality, then some of

3:46

the public will forgive him and he

3:49

may have lost his political career, but

3:51

he will go down in history as

3:54

a leader who at least tried or

3:56

at least managed a very difficult situation

3:58

at his final. a chapter of leadership.

4:00

Right now, it doesn't seem as if

4:02

that's going on. Well, let's

4:04

take the measure at the moment. Netanyahu,

4:07

for all of his endurance, has been

4:09

called, among other things, the worst Israeli

4:12

prime minister ever by one of his

4:14

key biographers, among others. Israelis were flooding

4:16

the streets for his resignation just before

4:19

the attacks. There have been more recent

4:21

protests, although at more subdued levels. Nine

4:23

months into this war, how are Israelis

4:26

now thinking about Netanyahu? His

4:28

approval ratings are very low

4:30

right now. Against his main

4:32

competitors, he's losing to Benny

4:35

Gantz, 35 to 41 percent.

4:37

And after October 7th, after

4:39

Mr. Security has been revealed

4:41

as someone who can't manage

4:43

Israel's basic security needs, then

4:45

that really was the last

4:47

straw. You mentioned Netanyahu's

4:49

political rival, Benny Gantz, who's been

4:51

in his coalition. Netanyahu

4:54

dissolved the war cabinet on Sunday

4:56

after Gantz withdrew from the cabinet

4:58

last week. Gantz is considered more

5:00

centrist. But the point of

5:03

that coalition was to keep both hardliners on

5:05

board and keep them a bit on the

5:07

sidelines in decision making. Now, presumably, they're likely

5:09

to be more unleashed than ever. So

5:12

what are Netanyahu's actual instincts in this kind

5:14

of situation? How hard line is he? I

5:17

think Netanyahu's instinct right now is

5:19

survival. But he's not that much

5:21

of a hardliner. However, he is

5:24

looking at the political map. So right now,

5:26

it's more likely that he will be more

5:29

open to the right wing elements of his

5:31

coalition. And in terms of the ways in

5:33

which he has waged the war, does

5:36

that reflect a hard line position or

5:38

does that reflect actually kind of where

5:41

Israeli consensus is, even if many

5:43

countries and many voices in the

5:45

outside world are highly critical of

5:48

the death toll, among other elements?

5:50

I think that's a very interesting point, because you'd

5:53

expect, even on this issue of how

5:56

Israel is conducting the war, that

5:58

it will go down along political...

6:00

lines. But it's not. There is

6:03

a broad Israeli consensus. And it

6:05

may be wearing off a little

6:07

bit now. Netanyahu wasn't being a

6:09

right-winger or a hardliner when he

6:11

launched this war in this specific

6:14

way. He was reflecting an Israeli

6:16

sentiment, which was a sentiment of

6:18

fear, of shock, of the use

6:20

whatever power you can, resolve

6:22

the problem of Hamas. We've

6:25

read how Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar

6:27

studied Israelis. He considered his enemies

6:29

for years from inside Israeli prisons.

6:32

He's learned Hebrew. How well does

6:34

Netanyahu understand his adversary? I

6:36

don't think he does. I think Netanyahu,

6:38

he has this concept of

6:41

the Palestinian issue being an issue

6:43

that can probably never be resolved

6:45

and of Iran being the

6:47

main force that is instigating everything

6:50

that happens around the Middle East,

6:52

including the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. That

6:55

leads him to a position in

6:57

which his main goal is to

6:59

build Israel's military force, a huge

7:01

military force that will be able

7:03

to deter Iran because that is

7:05

basically the only real challenge to

7:07

Israel in military terms, and

7:09

that he should never trust the Palestinian side

7:12

because he believes that at the end of

7:14

the day, Israel will face terrorism from the

7:16

Palestinian side. For all

7:18

you've described about Netanyahu, what you

7:21

present as, call

7:23

it his pragmatism, his cynicism, for

7:25

all the allegations swirling around him

7:28

about his own corruption, for all

7:30

the questions about the compromises and

7:32

failings on national security that have

7:34

been levied against him, why

7:37

has Netanyahu emerged as

7:39

the most enduring figure in

7:41

modern Israeli history? It's

7:44

hard to tell. I think some of it is just

7:46

he was the right person in the right place, and

7:49

some kind of a modern sense of being

7:51

a politician of the new world is

7:54

the economic policy, privatization,

7:57

revamping the Israeli economy, all these things.

7:59

that were seen as points that made

8:01

Israelis believe that he is a politician

8:03

of a different level, of a different

8:06

kind, someone that Israel hasn't seen before.

8:08

But I think a lot of it is also

8:10

because he was very effective in

8:13

eliminating his political rivals.

8:16

And within the broader Israeli political

8:18

system, he was willing to shift as

8:20

needed. Right now he's shifting far

8:23

to the right because that's where

8:25

his political future is. And this

8:27

type of political pragmatism also made

8:29

him very effective in

8:31

remaining in power and becoming Israel's longest

8:33

serving prime minister. Given

8:35

what you just described about sort

8:37

of the panoply of adversaries Netanyahu

8:40

has drawn, what

8:42

do those critics, what do those adversaries fear most about

8:44

him? What they fear

8:46

is Netanyahu is cornered right now

8:48

and he might act in

8:51

a way that would be less responsible. There

8:53

are claims that he is

8:55

less interested in releasing the

8:57

hostages right now and more

8:59

interested in achieving some kind

9:02

of a major or symbolic victory

9:04

against Hamas because of his own

9:06

politics. That's a very serious

9:09

claim to make, but it is part

9:11

of the Israeli discourse right now. And

9:13

there's also the sphere which we saw before

9:15

October 7 that Netanyahu is

9:18

willing to give up some of the

9:20

maintenance of Israeli democracy, that he doesn't

9:22

really care about the future of Israel

9:25

as a democracy, as a country with

9:27

a functioning strong legal system, as long

9:29

as he can survive in power for

9:31

another day. Natan

9:34

Gutman is Washington correspondent for

9:36

Israel Public Broadcasting and political

9:38

columnist for Moment Magazine. Natan,

9:40

our thanks. Thank you, David.

9:50

And in yesterday's episode of our

9:52

podcast, Here and Now Anytime, we

9:54

brought you the backstory of the

9:56

leader of Hamas in Gaza, Yaha

9:58

Sinwar, who spent nearly 25

10:00

years in Israeli prisons and

10:03

has been underground recently, literally

10:05

underground. Check that out, yesterday's

10:07

here and now anytime. Be

10:09

sure to subscribe so you

10:11

don't miss an episode. We

10:14

also have a wide range of

10:16

coverage on the Middle East and

10:18

about the war in Gaza, personal

10:20

stories, historical, political analysis and more.

10:22

You can find all of that

10:25

at npr.org/Mideast Updates. Coming

10:27

up now, the life of a legend. One

10:30

of the most extraordinary athletes of the

10:32

last century, Baseball Hall of Famer Willie

10:34

Mays has died. We listen

10:36

back to some of the sounds of

10:38

the moments that made him famous. Stay

10:41

with us. The

10:56

magic of Willie Mays can be summed up in one play in game

10:58

one of the 1954 World Series.

11:23

Mays was playing for the New York

11:25

Giants who were taking on the Cleveland

11:27

Indians. Mays in

11:29

center field chased a fly

11:31

ball and caught it over his shoulder,

11:33

his back to the fast moving ball.

11:45

This became known as the catch. When

11:48

the ball went up, I knew

11:50

exactly what to do before the ball

11:52

ever came down. Mays remembered the play

11:54

in a 2010 interview

11:56

on NPR's All Things Considered. I

11:58

gotta catch the ball. I

12:00

got to stop I got to make a

12:02

360 by the time I make the 360

12:05

the ball should be back into the infield

12:07

And a lot of people said well He

12:10

had it all the way well I

12:12

might have had the ball all the way but

12:14

the key to me was it throw Getting

12:17

it back into the infield so nobody could

12:19

advance and he did exactly

12:21

all of that The underdog Giants won

12:24

the game and went on to

12:26

sweep Cleveland in the series Willie

12:29

Howard Mays jr. Was born in 1931

12:31

in Westfield, Alabama And

12:34

played for the Birmingham black barons

12:36

in the old Negro Leagues those

12:38

games were highly competitive But

12:41

also meant to entertain says James

12:43

Hirsch. He wrote the biography Willie

12:46

Mays the life the legend It

12:48

wasn't just that he ran fast or hit with

12:51

power But the

12:53

use of the basket catch the

12:55

hat flying off his head The

12:59

way his he would he would

13:01

swivel his head on his neck

13:03

to track the ball He

13:05

did it with a certain flare and charisma

13:08

that he knew was irresistible to watch

13:10

in 1951

13:13

four years after Jackie Robinson broke

13:15

the Major League's color barrier Mays

13:18

joined the New York Giants He

13:20

was just 20 years old and

13:22

brought up by the Giants famous

13:24

manager Leo DeRocher You hear DeRocher

13:27

talk about Mays abilities in the

13:29

2023 HBO documentary say hey Willie

13:31

Mays When

13:42

the Giants and Dodgers moved from New

13:45

York to California in 1958

13:48

Mays was a face of Major League

13:50

Baseball's westward expansion The fact that his

13:52

face was black made it a tough

13:54

transition for Mays when he tried to

13:56

buy a home in a white part

13:58

Of San Francisco the neighbors pushed back.

14:01

Mayes eventually got the house and

14:03

spoke plainly about the process in

14:05

an interview on KPIX. Yes,

14:07

it was a disappointment to me because I

14:10

didn't figure that I would have this much trouble trying

14:12

to buy a place. That's why when I

14:14

go looking for a house I don't worry about who

14:16

lives beside me. I go and try to find the

14:19

best place that I like and I

14:21

think I'll be coffee in. Willie Mayes

14:23

was not comfortable with confronting

14:26

racism forthrightly and loudly. This

14:28

was a contrast with Jackie Robinson, who

14:31

criticized Mayes for not using his platform

14:33

when the civil rights movement was in

14:35

full swing. Hirsch wrote about

14:37

this in his biography. Robinson

14:39

called him a, quote, do nothing Negro.

14:43

But importantly, Willie

14:45

believed that in

14:47

his own way he did advance

14:49

the civil rights movement as

14:52

a role model for the rest

14:54

of America. Mayes

14:56

pushed back quietly at the time,

14:58

but talked about it decades later

15:00

in the interview on NPR. I

15:03

know Jackie had a hard time when

15:05

he came in. I applaud

15:07

him. I don't know if I could have

15:09

done the things that he did when he

15:11

came in. But

15:14

what am I going to change? I can't change the

15:16

world. I can live

15:18

the way I live and

15:20

hope that I can help people of

15:23

all races all the time. In

15:25

1962, the San Francisco Giants made

15:27

their first playoffs, beat the Dodgers

15:30

and the National League Championship, and

15:32

lost to the Yankees in seven

15:34

games in the World Series. Mayes

15:37

played 21 seasons with the Giants. In his

15:39

career, Mayes hit 660 home runs, stole 338

15:41

bases. And

15:46

his biographer, James Hirsch, says the most

15:48

important statistic might be that Mayes put

15:50

out more than 7,000 opposing

15:53

players from center field. It

15:56

underscores his durability. Willie

15:58

played 2040. years. He rarely

16:00

took a day off, not until his

16:03

last couple of years, when he was 40,

16:05

41, 42, when

16:08

he began to be nagged by injuries.

16:11

Mays is also remembered for making

16:13

peace in the clubhouse, keeping the

16:15

focus on the baseball and making

16:17

everyone feel welcome. You

16:19

remember that baseball team. He's

16:22

going to take care of you. Nate Oliver

16:24

played with Willie Mays on the San Francisco

16:26

Giants in 1968. He treated every single person

16:30

in that clubhouse with

16:32

dignity and respect, because

16:36

if you were here, you belong

16:38

here. Mays was also known for

16:40

taking young players under his wing,

16:42

including the outfielder, Bobby Bonds, who

16:44

made Mays the godfather of his

16:46

son, Barry Bonds. Nothing gives

16:48

him more pleasure than, you know,

16:51

kind of teaching the game, and nothing

16:53

gives him more pleasure than helping

16:58

children. That's Renele Brooks

17:00

Moon, the San Francisco Giants' former

17:02

public address announcer. Brooks Moon appeared

17:05

with Mays at several charity launches.

17:07

She says he was always generous

17:10

with his time, presence, and name.

17:12

On his 90th birthday in 2021,

17:14

the Giants Community Fund launched a

17:17

scholarship program for black students in

17:19

his name. He's always said that

17:23

people took such good care of him when

17:25

he was young and coming up in

17:28

baseball that he wants to give it

17:30

back. That's the legacy Mays left. He

17:32

was one of baseball's greats who played

17:34

the game and tried to live his

17:36

life with joy. I'm Brian Watt.

17:40

Say, will they? Say, hey.

17:43

Say, who? Swinging at the plate.

17:45

Say, hey. Say, who? Say, will

17:47

they? That giant kid

17:50

is great. Say, hey. Coming

17:54

up, it's Juneteenth, marking

17:56

the newest national holiday,

17:58

celebrating freedom. while also

18:01

recognizing the most difficult parts of our

18:03

history. We have a red-drink

18:05

elixir to share with you. Stay

18:08

with us. Music

18:19

Music Today

18:22

is Juneteenth, a national holiday

18:24

marking the end of slavery across

18:26

the United States. It's a

18:28

celebration of freedom with a bit of a sting. It

18:31

marks the time when the enslaved people in Texas

18:34

finally received word about the end of slavery.

18:36

They're the last to know, more than two

18:39

years after President Lincoln

18:41

signed the Emancipation Proclamation. Let's

18:43

talk about Juneteenth and the food

18:45

surrounding it with chef and author

18:47

Clancy Miller. Her latest book

18:50

is For the Culture, Phenomenal Black Women

18:52

and the Femmes in Food. It

18:54

was on the New York Times Best Cookbook

18:57

list for the year and was nominated for

18:59

a James Beard Foundation Media Award. Clancy

19:01

Miller, welcome back to Here and Now. Thank you. Thanks

19:04

for having me. You,

19:06

like a lot of people outside of

19:08

Texas, did not grow up celebrating Juneteenth.

19:11

I understand. How did you come to

19:13

embrace it? Honestly,

19:16

it was as recent as the year

19:18

2020 when I

19:20

feel like the country

19:23

at large started to learn

19:25

more about Juneteenth. And

19:27

I remember going to a really

19:30

fabulous party at a

19:32

place called Ode to Babel in Brooklyn.

19:35

And it was a Juneteenth party and

19:37

there were red drinks and everyone

19:40

was dancing and it was my

19:42

first time celebrating Juneteenth. So

19:45

how do you think about it this year and how

19:47

do you plan to observe it this year? Now

19:50

I think about it in terms

19:52

of, you know, how do I

19:54

want to claim my

19:57

own freedom? How do I want to express

19:59

that? or acknowledge

20:01

the history of my

20:04

people here. And so this

20:06

year I'm having a small picnic

20:08

with friends, just a small gathering

20:11

of food and a couple

20:13

of red drinks. Let's talk

20:15

about red drinks. You mentioned it a couple of

20:17

times and it's so connected to

20:19

Juneteenth. You published a sample Juneteenth

20:21

menu and in addition to the

20:24

food, you have this recipe

20:26

for a hibiscus elixir. Tell

20:29

us about the ingredients. Walk us through the

20:31

recipe of what's in it. I

20:34

should first of all give credit

20:36

to Ardinia Brown. She is the

20:38

private chef for the musician Questlove

20:41

and she contributed their recipe for

20:43

the hibiscus elixir to for the

20:45

culture and it contains hibiscus

20:48

flowers which give it this wonderful

20:50

deep red or deep, deep hot

20:52

pink, but I would say red

20:54

color. Mm-hmm. Naval

20:56

oranges that are sliced, cardamom

20:59

seeds which add a nice kind

21:01

of spiciness to it. Star anise,

21:04

cinnamon sticks are in it, fresh

21:07

ginger, lime, and you can

21:09

add mint or lemon verbena

21:14

and as a sweetener you can use something

21:16

like honey. Okay, so I've

21:19

got it steeping in my kitchen about eight

21:21

steps above me now. So it's not fully

21:23

done, but it made it as much

21:25

as I can and so I've got it here in front

21:28

of me. Nice. And I'm gonna try

21:30

it and on your advice, I did add a little

21:32

bit of honey and on your advice, there's a little

21:34

pinch of bourbon in it. As you suggest, it might

21:36

be able to be served. So hold the line, here

21:38

we go, I'm gonna try it and tell you about

21:41

it. Oh, I'm excited. Oh,

21:46

wow. I can taste the

21:51

fullness. The

21:53

oranges, the cinnamon,

21:56

the star anise, I mean, they're

21:59

coming together and. I'm thinking

22:01

this is June, but is this just

22:03

for summer? Because it tastes like year round

22:05

to me. Oh, you

22:07

can have it anytime, anytime. Absolutely.

22:10

It's so refreshing. It's

22:12

so layered with flavors like

22:15

the citrusy flavors, the herbally

22:17

flavors, the as you mentioned

22:19

the star anise, the cinnamon,

22:21

it all comes together. It's

22:23

beautiful, complex, also

22:26

simple. Like you said, great

22:28

with the, if you want to

22:30

add some bourbon, quite nice. Or if you want

22:33

to keep it non-alcoholic, it's nice to add some

22:35

seltzer. Yeah. No, as you write in

22:37

your recipe, you can serve it with seltzer, serve it as

22:39

a hot tea, blood pressure, lowering,

22:41

elixir, virgin drinks, so many

22:43

options for this. And we're

22:46

going to have this online, of course. I want

22:48

to talk a little bit more about red drinks. In

22:50

your article, you mentioned Nicole

22:53

Taylor. She of course is author of

22:55

a cookbook on Juneteenth recipes, Watermelon and

22:57

Red Birds. We spoke to her on

23:00

our show a couple of years

23:02

ago, and I just want to read

23:04

a quick passage about red drinks, her

23:06

chapter on that. The tradition

23:09

of red drinks began mostly with the

23:11

parts of two plants, the cola nuts,

23:13

the seed of the cola plant and

23:15

hibiscus pod. West African culture came to

23:17

the US with a transatlantic slave trade.

23:19

And so the drinking

23:22

tradition of seed steep in

23:24

water became incised into black

23:26

people's DNA. Wow.

23:29

Tell me more about your thoughts on red

23:32

drinks and why. First

23:35

of all, they're really fascinating

23:37

from a diasporic level,

23:39

which Nicole hits on

23:42

in terms of their presence here in the

23:44

United States, kind of a

23:46

byproduct of the transatlantic slave trade.

23:49

But if you travel in Senegal, you'll

23:51

find red drinks. If

23:55

you travel in the Caribbean, you'll find

23:57

a lot of hibiscus. Infused

24:00

drinks. I think it's

24:02

kind of beautiful we

24:05

have these links in something

24:07

as visible and as simple as

24:09

a red colored

24:11

drink Whether it's from colonnuts

24:13

or whether it's from hibiscus the fact that

24:16

we can we can trace that to a

24:18

place You know that many of

24:20

us are from and it's

24:22

I think it's a really beautiful symbol

24:24

and they happen to taste delicious they

24:26

do Clancy

24:30

mailer you you published in a

24:32

recent article a sample Juneteenth menu

24:35

It includes something I'd found just provocative

24:37

and it just looks delicious I haven't

24:39

had a chance to try to make

24:41

it yet, New Orleans blackened shrimp. Why

24:44

did you choose that? So

24:46

the person who contributed that

24:48

recipe is Zella Palmer who

24:51

is an amazing historian in New

24:55

Orleans at Dillard. I think

24:57

it's a great thing that you

24:59

can kind of have if you're

25:01

having a barbecue on Juneteenth or if

25:03

you're having some kind of Seafood

25:06

feast it's a wonderful thing to

25:08

include and it's really rich and

25:11

buttery and has herbs in

25:13

it like rosemary and you

25:15

stop it all up with like a piece of

25:17

French bread and It's really

25:19

rich and delicious Yeah,

25:22

well we will have links to a couple of these

25:24

recipes on our on our website here and

25:27

now org Given Juneteenth,

25:29

you know, it's recently become

25:31

a national holiday. Is it an opportunity?

25:33

I mean we all care about food

25:36

and if food is an entree to

25:38

this important history That

25:40

you know that we need to know is

25:43

this a moment you think where you

25:45

can play a part in Introducing

25:47

so many people who know nothing about

25:50

Juneteenth Yeah, I

25:52

mean I would invite people to take

25:54

a moment and read about this holiday

25:56

what Specifically was happening,

25:58

you know, it's got the backdrop of the

26:01

Civil War, which had already ended. It's

26:03

an opportunity to become familiar

26:06

with this country's history, including

26:09

little-known history. And Quincy

26:11

Juneteenth is

26:13

a complex marker, on one hand, a celebration

26:16

of freedom and the

26:18

acknowledgement of a kind of a con, holding

26:20

off on the news of the end of

26:22

slavery for a couple of years

26:24

for many Americans. How do you hold

26:27

both of these at the same time

26:29

when you think about how to celebrate

26:31

or recognize Juneteenth? I

26:34

think it's incredibly painful,

26:37

actually, to know that people

26:40

who were technically supposed

26:42

to be free were made

26:44

unaware of their

26:46

freedom. So I really think,

26:50

to me, it really becomes

26:52

a meditation on what is

26:54

freedom? What does that look like

26:57

to me personally? What does that look

26:59

like to a people, to

27:01

human beings in general? What does it mean

27:04

to be free? And

27:06

I think that's really something to

27:08

think about and to know, hopefully,

27:10

we have agency in our lives

27:12

to exercise our freedom and to

27:14

speak up on behalf of other

27:17

people experiencing freedom. So

27:19

I think it's both something that I

27:22

see as a meditation and a call to

27:24

action and then something to think about, how

27:26

do I want to express this in my

27:28

life and with other

27:30

people? Because I do think it's something to

27:32

be celebrated with other

27:35

people. So it's a

27:37

combination of things. Yeah.

27:40

Well, we've been talking and sipping with

27:42

chef and author Clancy Miller. Her latest

27:44

book is For the Culture, Phenomenal Black

27:46

Women and the Femmes in Food. It

27:48

has been named on several best cookbook

27:51

lists. Clancy, so good to have you.

27:53

Thanks so much for the time. Thank

27:55

you for having me. Our

28:00

show comes to you thanks to the team behind

28:03

Here and Now from NPR,

28:05

NWBUR Boston. Today's

28:07

stories are produced by Lynn Menigan, Brian

28:10

Watt and me, Shirley Jihad. Our

28:12

editors are Todd Montt, Mikaela

28:14

Rodriguez, Peter O'Dowd, Michael Scotto

28:16

and Kat Welch. Technical

28:18

directors are Mike Moschetto and Michaela

28:21

Barella. Mike Moschetto, Max Liebman

28:23

and Chris Bentley created the theme music.

28:25

Our digital producers are Alison Hagan and

28:27

Grace Griffin. The executive producer

28:30

of Here and Now is Carleen

28:32

Watson. I'm Shirley Jihad. Thank you

28:34

for joining us. Subscribe and see

28:36

you tomorrow.