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0:46

here's the show. There are pictures you

0:48

can find in newspaper archives, aerial photographs

0:50

of neighborhoods that looks like just like a

0:52

giant pencil eraser was dragged through them,

0:54

you know, three full city blocks just

0:57

flattened. Freeway fighters are

0:59

in a battle for America's

1:01

downtowns. It's

1:11

Wednesday, May 29. And this

1:14

is Here and Now Anytime from NPR

1:16

and WBUR. I'm Chris Bentley. Today

1:20

on the show, why highways

1:23

cut through the hearts of so many American

1:25

cities and how a new generation of

1:27

activists is trying to change that. Also,

1:31

Major League Baseball is now counting

1:33

Negro League statistics in its record

1:35

books. We'll look back at

1:37

the history of those leagues and baseball's

1:39

black superstars. Well, you know, this is

1:42

always a tragedy of the African American

1:44

experience. You know, we struggle with

1:46

being treated as second class citizens in America.

1:49

We go off as baseball players to

1:51

play in Mexico or play in

1:54

Venezuela or play in the Dominican

1:56

Republic and we're welcome with open arms.

1:59

But first... The government will

2:01

release a new estimate on the health of

2:03

the US economy tomorrow, but

2:05

it's possible the American people won't notice. The

2:09

economy has been growing. Unemployment's low,

2:11

record high inflation has fallen, all

2:14

of which is to say the US is

2:16

not in a recession. But

2:19

according to a Harris Poll for The Guardian, nearly

2:21

60% of Americans wrongly

2:23

think we are in a recession. So

2:27

what's going on? Former Treasury

2:29

Secretary Larry Summers has been researching this

2:31

gap between the data and how people

2:33

experience the economy in their everyday lives.

2:36

He talked about it with Peter O'Dowd. Before

2:40

we get to people's perceptions, let's just talk about the facts

2:42

of this economy. How is it doing? Look,

2:45

we have a good economy

2:47

in most respects. Unemployment

2:49

is low. The economy

2:52

has been growing for

2:55

quite some time. Productivity

2:57

performance is pretty good. The

2:59

stock market is

3:02

strong. The difficulty is

3:04

with the cost of living

3:07

as people are experiencing it. It's

3:10

true that inflation is relatively

3:12

low, but prices are

3:14

still much higher than they were a

3:16

few years ago, even

3:19

if they're now growing more slowly. And

3:21

what I've emphasized in my

3:23

own research is that

3:26

the cost of money, which is

3:28

not something that is counted

3:31

in the traditional price index, has

3:34

gone way up with higher interest

3:36

rates. Most people who

3:38

buy cars have a monthly car

3:40

payment, and that's what they look

3:42

at, not the

3:45

inflation rate or the

3:47

price of a car. Oh, you're saying

3:49

that the cost of borrowing, buying a

3:52

car, for instance, because it's

3:54

still very high, is actually

3:57

more powerful in people's

3:59

minds... then inflation. I'm saying

4:01

two different things. I'm saying the price

4:03

of everything. Even if

4:06

grocery prices used to be

4:08

going up 10% and now they're going up 5%, they're still

4:13

going up from a level

4:15

that's too high. The

4:17

second point is that interest

4:20

costs, which are very

4:22

important to people as their monthly

4:24

payment on their house or their

4:26

monthly payment on their credit card,

4:28

don't show up in the consumer

4:30

price index. They're not counted

4:32

as part of the cost of living. And

4:35

once you take account of interest rates,

4:38

you get much more of a

4:40

sense of why people are not

4:43

feeling so great about the economy right

4:45

now. The cost of money,

4:47

interest rates, has been high before.

4:49

They were much higher than they are now in the 1970s

4:51

and 80s, for example. Did

4:54

we suffer from the same perception problem at that

4:56

time? There were huge

4:58

problems of consumer confidence

5:01

at that time. That's a

5:03

substantial part of the reason why Jimmy

5:05

Carter lost the presidency. Now

5:08

then we were talking about 21% interest rates. We're

5:11

not talking about anything like that now. But

5:15

what's interesting is that

5:17

there's a pretty clear

5:19

statistical relationship that

5:22

beyond unemployment and inflation,

5:25

the level of interest

5:27

rates impacts consumer well-being.

5:30

And we had had a long

5:32

period of interest rates

5:34

near zero and mortgage rates for

5:36

many people that were 3%. And

5:40

now we're looking at interest rates that

5:42

are much higher and mortgage rates that

5:45

for many people on a new mortgage

5:47

are above 7%. And

5:50

that's a lot of what's contributing to

5:52

people's unhappiness. One of

5:54

the main reasons that interest rates are

5:57

as high as they are is because

5:59

the Fed is trying to

6:01

keep inflation under control. So what

6:03

do we do about that? What

6:05

should the next move be? That'll

6:07

depend upon circumstances.

6:10

It's always tempting to

6:13

reduce interest rates because people like

6:15

it. But if you do it

6:17

prematurely, what you

6:19

get is more inflation

6:21

and ultimately higher interest

6:23

rates. That was the

6:26

lesson of the

6:28

1970s, that if

6:30

you pursue short-run policies,

6:34

it's like completely

6:36

indulging your sweet tooth. You

6:39

like it while you're doing it, but

6:41

you regret how it feels afterwards.

6:45

You're an economist, not a political analyst,

6:47

but you have served in two administrations

6:49

and you know that this is a

6:51

central issue in the upcoming presidential election.

6:53

Do you think there's anything the Biden

6:56

administration could do to improve

6:58

some of the issues we're talking about

7:00

now, or at least improve the public

7:02

perception of the economy before the election

7:04

in November? You know, I

7:06

think President Clinton always used to say

7:08

to us that good

7:10

policy is good politics. And

7:13

I think what the Biden administration needs

7:15

to do is to

7:17

keep focused on building a stronger,

7:21

more competitive economy.

7:24

That's broadly the approach they're taking

7:26

with all the support they're giving

7:29

to renewable energy, which is

7:31

holding down electricity costs.

7:34

That's the approach they're taking

7:36

to protecting us against big

7:39

price spikes by

7:41

investing in the country's capacity

7:43

to build semiconductors. And

7:46

so I think the broad

7:48

approach that the Biden administration is taking

7:50

is the right one.

7:54

I've had some differences with

7:56

the policies they pursued, particularly early.

8:00

in the administration.

8:02

But I think the main

8:05

point is that the platform

8:07

that's been put forth by

8:09

former President Trump would

8:13

be a massive increase in

8:15

cost of living pressure. He

8:18

would undermine the independence of the

8:20

Fed leading to the kind of

8:22

money printing we saw

8:25

with President Nixon and Arthur

8:27

Burns that set off the inflation

8:29

of the 1970s. He

8:32

would not tolerate any

8:34

tax increases even on

8:36

the wealthiest Americans, making

8:38

budget deficits larger. And

8:41

that's the crucial contrast that

8:43

I think the Biden administration

8:45

will want to make clear

8:48

during this campaign. Larry

8:51

Summers is the former Treasury Secretary

8:53

and an economist. Thank you so much for

8:55

your time, as always. Thank you.

9:05

Coming up next, highways

9:07

are a fact of life in

9:10

American cities, but it wasn't

9:12

always that way. In fact, the

9:14

interstate highway system was supposed to

9:16

avoid congested neighborhoods. After the

9:18

break, Peter speaks with the author of

9:20

a book about the history of urban

9:22

highways and the potential for a future

9:24

without them. Look

9:27

around. On

9:35

this week's episode of Wild Card, poet

9:37

Laureate Ada Lemone tells us how to

9:39

give yourself a little grace. The nice

9:42

thing about being in my mid to

9:44

late 40s, yeah, I forgive

9:46

myself. Join

9:48

me, Rachel Martin, for NPR's new podcast, Wild

9:51

Card, the game where cards control

9:53

the conversation. This

9:58

message comes from NPR sponsor, Carvana.

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Martin. You probably know how interview podcasts

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with famous people usually go. There's a

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host, a guest, and a light Q&A,

10:24

but on Wild Card we have ripped

10:26

up the typical script. It's a new

10:28

podcast from NPR where I invite actors,

10:30

artists, and comedians to play a game

10:32

using a special local card to

10:34

talk about some of life's biggest questions. Listen

10:36

to Wild Card, wherever you get your podcasts,

10:39

only from NPR. When

10:49

you think of a big American

10:51

city skyline, do you see a

10:53

highway in that picture? Well,

10:56

highways cut right through the hearts of

10:58

many downtowns in this country and a

11:00

growing group of activists would like to

11:02

change that. These freeway fighters are starting

11:04

to have some success. Megan

11:06

Kimball wrote about all this in a

11:09

new book. It's called City Limits, Infrastructure,

11:11

Inequality, and the Future of America's Highways,

11:13

and she's with us now to talk

11:16

about it. Megan, welcome. Thanks for having

11:18

me. And first of all, you live

11:20

in Austin, Texas. This is a city

11:22

that is notorious for bad traffic. Is

11:24

that what captivated you by the idea

11:26

of removing highways from American cities? Right.

11:29

In Austin, Texas, I-35 goes right through the middle

11:31

of the city. It's this massive interstate, you know,

11:34

about a mile from where I live. It's a

11:36

double deck, so it's like a very imposing

11:38

structure that just clatters over the city. And

11:41

the Texas Department of Transportation intends to

11:43

expand that highway from 12 to 20

11:45

lanes, you know, taking about 100 properties,

11:48

consuming a lot of land right in the middle

11:50

of the city. And when I

11:53

heard about that in 2020, that's

11:55

Somewhat horrified me. Is Someone, you know, I Cross I-35 All of the

11:57

time on bike, on foot, on a bike, On a bike, On a

11:59

bike. The car and and I quickly learned

12:02

about it and to this group called

12:04

Rethink Thirty Five that has advocated for

12:06

removing the highway altogether you know, rerouting

12:08

interstate traffic that's not coming to a

12:10

destination and Us and around the city

12:12

and putting on land to better use

12:14

for housing or transit or places that

12:16

people can meet. And walk in you know

12:18

be together. And that vision really captivated me

12:20

as like of an alternate vision for austin.

12:23

A One of the things that fascinates

12:25

me about your books. You come back

12:27

to this idea over and over again.

12:29

Whether it's in Austin or Dallas or

12:31

Houston, the city's the to feature. Here

12:34

it is that no matter what you

12:36

do, if you add more lanes to

12:38

a highway, the traffic will get worse.

12:40

It's not clear to get better. So

12:42

what do we know about expanding highways?

12:44

What happens? The phenomenon known

12:46

as Undies to man has and Wallander said since

12:48

at least the nineteen sixties. When we started building

12:50

these highways to begin. With and that basically says

12:53

when you add. Road capacity cars will

12:55

fill up. Ah capacity. They

12:57

have traveled a man models that the

12:59

say if we don't whine the highway

13:01

traffic. Congestion with a cataclysmic and we will

13:03

all be on this highway for three hours

13:05

of our day by. What they don't

13:07

I realizes that like people are rational consumers

13:10

of goods and as that how he becomes

13:12

harder to uses it takes longer to get

13:14

anywhere. Like people will change. Their behavior they'll

13:16

move closer to their dogs are schools or they

13:18

will try to get around by other modes. And

13:21

stadia. He's like their traffic models to

13:23

not incorporate that so called trip that

13:25

take and states just. Extrapolate out from

13:27

are congested future to a more congested

13:30

one. The history of interstate

13:32

highways is very fascinating and worth

13:34

noting. Here's the Interstate Highway System

13:36

is built under President Eisenhower. Are

13:38

you rated? It was never his

13:40

intention to put highways right into

13:42

the most congested part of cities

13:44

they were supposed to go round

13:46

of rights, but of course they

13:48

did in many cases. and when

13:50

they did, they decimated these neighborhoods

13:52

that were often black latino vibrant

13:54

communities. What did you learn about

13:56

that in Texas? I

13:58

mean it's true across the country is. the

14:00

intent of the interstate program was to

14:03

build connections between cities for national defense

14:05

and economic prosperity. And what city planners

14:07

did instead was, you know, like Americans

14:09

were buying automobiles in record numbers, cars

14:12

were flooding city streets. And so in

14:14

places like Dallas, there was this urgency

14:16

to do something about traffic congestion. And

14:19

this money that was coming from the federal

14:21

government had very few strings attached. And so

14:23

instead of building connections between cities, planners were

14:26

added highways right through the middle of cities,

14:28

which was very specifically not Eisenhower's proposal.

14:30

He appointed an engineer to

14:33

oversee the implementation of the interstate highway

14:35

program. And he said he presented to

14:37

Eisenhower, you know, all of the experts

14:39

agree that the way to solve urban

14:41

traffic congestion is to build transit. But what

14:44

cities are doing is actively tearing out

14:46

transit systems to build roads. What

14:49

happened when these highways went through

14:51

big urban areas? What happened to the neighborhoods? They

14:55

were flattened. You know, about a million people lost

14:57

their homes in the 1950s and 60s. There

15:00

are pictures you can find in newspaper archives,

15:02

aerial photographs of neighborhoods that looks like just

15:05

like a giant pencil eraser was dragged

15:07

through them, you know, three full

15:09

city blocks just flattened. It's

15:11

hard to imagine that now, right? These highways

15:13

are just part of the urban fabric. But

15:16

at the time in the 50s and 60s, they were

15:18

shocking. You know, a lot of neighborhoods were split

15:20

apart from each other from downtown because of

15:22

these highways. The heart of

15:25

your story then is really about these freeway

15:27

fighters in Texas who are well aware of

15:29

the history that you just told us about.

15:32

Tell us about these folks, you

15:34

know, what motivates them to pick

15:36

these fights with these big powerful

15:38

state departments of transportation. And

15:40

what do they want? Yeah,

15:42

so I profile freeway fighters in Austin, Houston,

15:45

and Dallas, and they all their motivations are

15:47

all a little bit different. And Austin, the

15:49

guy here, Adam Greenfield, who's really behind

15:51

this Rethink 35 campaign to remove the

15:54

highway is really motivated by climate.

15:57

Transportation is the leading contributor to greenhouse gas emissions in

15:59

the U.S. Hackers accounts for an

16:01

oversized proportionate that hundred emissions in

16:03

Texas account for half a percentage

16:05

of total worldwide covered accident emissions.

16:07

so he looks. At this highway that's only

16:09

going to get bigger and just sees. More greenhouse

16:11

gas emissions coming to. Austin. Making

16:14

us like a hotter, drier place to

16:16

live. The people and you center really

16:18

motivated, you know by that, but also

16:20

the kind of disproportionate impact that is

16:22

still inflicted. On Black and Hispanic families.

16:24

And so there's like a real justice

16:26

you know fight happening. In

16:29

Dallas there's a planner their his actually advocated

16:31

for. Removing a stretch of highway called as I

16:33

Three Forty five. And he has really

16:35

made the economic argument that these massive

16:37

structure. Is that contour cities are a waste?

16:40

Of space there an opportunity cost and

16:42

he calculated that this one. Stretch of

16:44

highway. So one point five mile stretch

16:46

of highway if. You remove it, you

16:48

could create the capacity for like nine billion

16:51

dollars of developable land, which creates hundreds of

16:53

millions of dollars of property tax revenue for

16:55

the City of Dallas, which really nice property.

16:57

Tax Revenue. So they're like all sorts

16:59

of things that motivate. These people you

17:01

economic climate justice and I think that's

17:03

either through a height is gaining. Momentum

17:05

is. there's lots of different ways and. And

17:08

it's not just in Texas is happening in

17:10

some form or another, in Detroit, Michigan, in

17:12

Minneapolis, St. Paul, or I notice that in

17:14

Rochester New York the actually one. Or this

17:16

is a chapter in your book. the city

17:19

tore down a section of highway. the divided

17:21

downtown's talk about some of the models for

17:23

success here. However, removal as

17:25

a great model for success. So the

17:27

City of Rochester recognize. That it's inner

17:30

loop highway was really like strangling it's downtown

17:32

and it got a grant from the Obama

17:34

administration to sell and that highway and put

17:36

housing. Where there used to the only. Space for

17:38

cars. A lot of that housing is

17:41

rented to people earning below the median

17:43

income in others. Like a bike lane

17:45

merits. Very walkable and so good at

17:47

by. The administration has talked about reconnecting

17:49

communities and that's kind of the vision.

17:51

as like care out these structures and

17:53

rebuild the neighborhoods and cities that were

17:55

in their place. You book

17:57

is pretty philosophical about how his insect.

18:00

You write at one point that once a

18:02

highway is built, it's almost

18:04

impossible to imagine it gone.

18:07

I think in a sense, a lot

18:09

of us who live in Phoenix, you

18:12

can't imagine a world without highways. Like

18:15

it or not, we're tied to cars. If you

18:17

live in the suburbs, you've got to drive to

18:19

where the jobs are and these cities are growing,

18:21

just more people are coming. What

18:24

is your vision of a

18:26

future city? What does that look like? Yeah,

18:29

I grew up in Los Angeles and now I live

18:32

in Austin, so I've never lived more than a mile

18:34

from a freeway. It's just very hard to imagine a

18:37

city without them. But I think

18:39

what I came to realize through my reporting is

18:41

that highways are a policy choice. We

18:43

have spent 70 years subsidizing

18:45

car travel over every other form

18:47

of transportation. And so the

18:50

basic argument, the basic vision for a better

18:52

future is instead of continuing to spend untold

18:55

billions widening these highways, we should

18:57

spend money on transit. We should

18:59

build better bus networks and better

19:01

light rail to move people around

19:03

through other modes and bring people

19:05

closer together. And that will have the benefit

19:07

of reducing air pollution and emissions and just

19:10

building more vibrant communities where people can walk

19:12

and see their neighbors and go down the

19:14

street to eat. I think people really want

19:16

that kind of city, but we have just

19:18

spent billions of dollars dividing each

19:20

other. Well, many cities

19:23

are investing money in those kinds of

19:25

projects. Is it your vision or others'

19:27

visions that they would someday replace all

19:29

the highways, or will we always have

19:31

them in some form? Yeah,

19:34

I'm not quite so radical as to suggest that

19:36

we should get rid of all highways. I mean,

19:38

I think the highways that run between cities are

19:40

incredibly functional. That was Eisenhower's ideas, like let's connect

19:43

Houston to Dallas. The idea is that

19:45

we do not need the highways that run directly through

19:47

the middle of our cities adjacent to our

19:49

downtowns. That we could remove a

19:51

two or three mile stretch of

19:53

highway in every American city and

19:55

liberate so much land and

19:58

also reallocate billions of dollars. of

20:00

funding to transit systems. Cities

20:03

are indeed building transit, but the

20:05

lion's share of federal transportation funding

20:07

goes to highways. We subsidize car

20:09

travel about four times as much as we

20:11

do transit systems, and that's been true for

20:13

seven years. So in most American cities, we

20:15

simply do not have good transit. Meghan

20:18

Kimball is author of City

20:20

Limits, Infrastructure, Inequality, and the

20:22

Future of America's Highways. Meghan,

20:24

thank you so much. Coming

20:33

up, the documentary The

20:35

League tells the story of black baseball

20:37

players all the way back to the

20:39

19th century, from Jackie

20:41

Robinson to lesser-known players, owners,

20:44

and activists who helped shape

20:46

America's past times. Batter

20:49

up after the break. When

20:56

the economic news gets to be a bit

20:58

much... Listen to The Indicator from

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22:22

afternoon to understand the world through

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political eyes. Today

22:33

is a game changer for Major

22:35

League Baseball. The

22:37

league is officially incorporating statistics

22:39

from the Negro Leagues, adding

22:42

the achievements of 2300 players to the record books. And

22:46

here's a name you need to know if you don't already.

22:49

Josh Gibson. He played in

22:51

the Negro Leagues between 1930 and 1946, and he was a phenomenon.

22:58

With the adjustment to the stats,

23:00

Gibson now holds the MLB record

23:02

for career batting average, replacing Ty

23:04

Cobb. He also now

23:06

has the record for career slugging percentage.

23:09

That one belonged to Babe Ruth. Josh

23:12

Gibson is just one of the Negro League

23:14

players getting his rightful place in the record

23:16

books today. The history of

23:18

the Negro Leagues is, of course, about

23:20

sports, but it's also a business story

23:22

and a key part of America's civil

23:25

rights history. The

23:27

documentary The League pulls those

23:29

threads together as it presents

23:31

interviews with players, risk-taking entrepreneurs,

23:33

and historians. Scott

23:35

Tong spoke with the film's director,

23:37

Sam Pollard, last year. Your

23:40

film traces a century or so of

23:43

African Americans in baseball, often

23:45

intersecting with key moments in civil

23:47

rights history. 1896 is

23:49

the year of Plessy versus Ferguson, the

23:52

case enshrining segregation in American

23:54

society, which brought about the

23:56

separate Negro Baseball Leagues. Let's

23:58

pick up with history. historian Lawrence

24:00

Hogan in your film. That's

24:02

the Plessy vs. Ferguson decision.

24:05

Great black professional baseball teams

24:07

come into being. And

24:10

the players and the games were a ballyhooed

24:13

by newspapers that

24:15

were their own newspapers. And

24:18

those newspapers knew the

24:20

audience that they had to play to. The

24:25

Negro Leagues rose as the African

24:27

American economy formed and grew on the

24:30

other side of the curtain, as it were. Is

24:32

that one way to think about this? Yeah,

24:35

I think it's important to understand that.

24:37

They were part of this economic engine

24:39

in these segregated communities. There

24:41

were stores, there were funeral parlors, and there

24:44

were Negro League owners who had their own

24:46

franchises. So this was not

24:48

just about entertaining the community, but it

24:50

was about economic survival

24:52

and economic ownership. These gentlemen

24:54

and ladies were entrepreneurs. One

24:57

player and entrepreneur I want to ask you about,

25:00

Rube Foster. On the field,

25:02

he was a star pitcher. You tell the

25:04

story of how he helped develop the screwball

25:07

and was brought in secretly to teach it

25:09

to the White Hall of Fame pitcher, Christy

25:11

Mathewson. As far as his

25:13

contribution to the Negro Leagues, what

25:15

was it? Well, here's the thing

25:18

to remember. He became an owner of a team, the

25:20

Chicago American Giants. And in 1920,

25:23

he felt that Negro League owners

25:25

should come together, band together, and

25:27

create their own Negro National League.

25:30

The next year, there was a colored league

25:33

that was created, and these

25:35

two leagues played against each other in the 1924 World Series.

25:39

And this was really the beginning of

25:41

organized Negro League Baseball. Sadly,

25:44

Rube Foster passed away around 1930, and

25:46

the league saw the suffering. But

25:49

in the 30s in Pittsburgh, two other men,

25:52

they revived the Negro Leagues, Tom Posey,

25:54

who owned the Homestead Grazes, and Gus

25:57

Greenlee, who owned the Pittsburgh Crawfords. I

26:00

saw really another big major heyday where you saw

26:02

the names that a lot of us are familiar

26:04

with. Satchel Paige, Josh

26:06

Gibson, Cool Papa Bell, Oscar

26:09

Charleston. Let's talk about Satchel Paige.

26:12

His name, as the story goes, comes from

26:14

him working at a train station growing up,

26:16

toting people's bags, or satchels,

26:18

and you have some previously unreleased

26:20

video of Satchel Paige. It

26:23

was hard to beat, man. You couldn't order to beat.

26:27

I did some things in baseball. I've never

26:29

seen anyone else do. I didn't know what

26:31

I was doing one half of the time,

26:33

but still I did it. He

26:35

was so great. Legend has it that in one

26:38

game he called in the outfield. He

26:40

had them sit behind him with the

26:42

infield as he struck out three

26:45

batters with nine pitchers. That's how great he was

26:47

with a pitcher. He just said, don't even play

26:49

the field. Just stand behind me as I do

26:51

all the work. Just stand behind me and I'll

26:53

do all the rest. He

26:55

was able to, even at the age of 42,

26:57

he played in the

26:59

Major Leagues. He was one of the first

27:01

African Americans besides Jackie Robinson or Ari Doby

27:04

to play for a Major League team, the Cleveland

27:06

Indians. There are the players. There

27:10

are the owners. One

27:12

voice is the co-owner of

27:14

the Newark Eagles, a woman,

27:16

Efra Manley, who owns the

27:18

team along with her husband Abe Manley.

27:21

She not only helps to manage a team

27:23

that does really well, on

27:25

the civil rights front she takes on the owners

27:28

of a department store in Harlem.

27:31

Here she was. There's a controversy about was

27:33

she a black woman, was she a white

27:35

woman, but she grew up in the black

27:37

community. When Blumstein's, a

27:39

very well-known department store, was in

27:42

Harlem and the owners had

27:44

only white clerks, she demanded they

27:46

should hire black women clerks for the store.

27:49

She made such a strong case for

27:51

it that those white owners finally relented

27:54

and hired black female clerks for Blumstein,

27:57

which was a major store in Harlem. I remember

27:59

going to Blumstein. when I was a

28:01

teenager. And then she went on

28:03

to lead the Newark Eagles to winning the

28:05

1946 Negro League World Series against

28:08

the Kansas City Monarchs. But

28:10

her other big email claim to fame,

28:12

so as I'm concerned was, and

28:15

we didn't know this when we were doing the film,

28:17

but Branch Rickey who's mythologized as

28:19

this great savior who brought Jackie

28:21

Robinson to the Brooklyn Dodgers, did

28:24

not compensate the Negro League

28:26

owners for signing Jackie Robinson,

28:28

for signing Don Newcomb, for

28:30

signing Roy Caponella. And

28:33

she publicly made it known in

28:35

the press that Branch didn't want

28:37

to compensate these Negro League owners,

28:39

including herself. I never felt

28:41

he was right to take those valuable players

28:43

and not give us a nickel for them.

28:46

I felt I was very wrong. And

28:49

we should have had some little

28:51

compensation, but we were in no

28:53

position to protest and he knew

28:55

it. So he just completely outmaneuvered

28:57

us, outsmarted us,

28:59

or just plain raped

29:01

us. I don't know what you'd say,

29:03

how you'd describe it. And

29:05

she was able though to get Bill Beck, who

29:08

was running the Cleveland Indians, to compensate

29:10

her for the services of

29:13

Larry Dobie, who became the first African

29:15

American player to play in the American

29:17

League. That's really

29:19

part of the essence of the cost

29:21

of baseball integration. In other

29:23

leagues, you buy a player and you pay for the player.

29:26

In this case, it starts to hollow

29:29

out the Negro Leagues, doesn't it? Yeah,

29:32

I mean, fans no

29:34

longer went to Negro League games because

29:36

now many of their major stars in

29:38

their cities, Jackie

29:40

Robinson, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron,

29:42

Ernie Banks, Monte Ervin,

29:45

Larry Dobie, they were playing in Major

29:47

League Baseball. But black fans started to

29:49

go see them play in Major League

29:51

Ballparks, which made the Negro League

29:53

team suffer. So by the

29:56

50s, they were barely hanging on. And

29:58

by 1960, the Negro Leagues were playing. the Negro Leagues were gone. Do

30:02

you think if these teams in

30:05

the Negro Leagues got

30:07

even partially paid

30:09

what their star players were worth, they

30:12

could have continued on? They had a proven product.

30:15

I think what could have happened is

30:17

that the Major Leagues could

30:19

have seen the Negro Leagues as

30:21

sort of a minor league extension

30:24

and could have said, we want to

30:26

keep you guys in our fold to

30:28

find Negro League players and compensate these

30:30

Negro Leagues on this. But they decided

30:32

not to do it. Yeah.

30:35

You know, what I found instructive watching

30:38

your documentary was learning more about the life

30:40

of the players as

30:42

they traveled during Jim Crow. In

30:45

some cases, they had to sleep in buses, even

30:47

in ballparks. And what's fascinating is

30:49

when some of them went to the Caribbean for

30:51

Winter Ball, players Max Manning

30:53

and Monte Ervin of the Newark Eagles,

30:56

they described the freedom of being

30:58

black men there. When you

31:00

are out of your own country and

31:03

you find everything so much

31:06

better, you know, it's

31:09

a revelation in a way, if you never experienced it. But

31:14

it's like heaven, you know, I want to

31:16

go back, you know, I'm going to go back there,

31:18

I got to go back there. There

31:22

was very little discrimination. So you

31:25

felt, you know, free. The

31:28

fact that you know, you were accepted for

31:30

your ability, not from the color of your

31:32

skin. And that really made you

31:35

feel great. And here's cultural critic

31:37

Gerald Early and Negro League scholar

31:39

Larry Lester on the early international

31:41

flavor of America's pastime. In

31:44

some ways, baseball generated a kind

31:46

of diaspora. Negro League

31:48

was a rainbow coalition of

31:51

players of color, everything from chalk

31:53

to charcoal. That was the

31:55

pigmentation that played in the Negro League. Well,

31:59

you know, this is already. It's a tragedy of

32:01

the African American experience. You know,

32:03

we struggle with being treated as second-class citizens

32:05

in America, and we go

32:08

off as baseball players to play

32:10

in Mexico or Plains, and as

32:12

we're playing Dominican Republic, and we're

32:14

welcome with open arms. We

32:16

go off to fight in World War II, you know,

32:19

and we're more accepted than we are in our own

32:21

country. The notion that a

32:23

black man could go to the Caribbean

32:25

and play baseball without feeling the same

32:27

kind of pressure and psychological baggage that

32:30

you had to deal with in America had

32:32

to be something that was emotionally

32:35

and psychologically invigorating. For

32:37

listeners who, you know, may already

32:40

know a little bit about the Negro Leagues

32:42

or someone who thinks he or she does,

32:45

why are you inviting that person to watch

32:47

a documentary? I mean, what fresh questions or

32:49

observations do you think it delivers? I

32:52

think simply this. I think it's

32:54

another opportunity for Americans, all Americans,

32:56

to understand that American history is

32:59

not just white history. You know,

33:01

it's a history that involves

33:03

people of color, Native people,

33:06

African-American people, who are

33:08

part and parcel, you know,

33:10

who are part of shaping the direction of this

33:12

country from good or from bad. And

33:14

I just think that, you know, when I make

33:17

these films, I want people to know that our

33:19

stories are part of the American story. Sam

33:22

Pollard is director of the League and

33:24

we've got pictures and links at our

33:26

website here and now.org. Sam,

33:30

congratulations on this film and thanks so much

33:32

for the time. My

33:34

pleasure. Fun

33:41

fact, by the way, the Chicago American Giants,

33:43

he mentioned, shared a ballpark toward the end

33:45

of their team's run with the Chicago

33:47

White Sox. And the Sox

33:49

actually wore American Giants replica uniforms a

33:51

few years back. Baggy blue

33:54

pinstripes. Not a bad look. That's

33:57

our show. Here and now, anytime.

34:00

from the team behind Here and

34:02

Now from NPR and WBUR Boston.

34:04

Today's stories were produced by Jill

34:07

Ryan, Shirley Jihad, and me, Chris

34:09

Bentley. Our editors

34:11

are Todd Montt, Mikaela Rodriguez, and

34:13

Michael Scotto. Technical direction

34:15

from Mike Moschetto and Patrick O'Connor.

34:18

Mike Moschetto also wrote our theme music

34:20

along with Max Liebman and me. Our

34:24

digital producers are Allison Hagan and Grace

34:26

Griffin, and the executive producer of

34:28

Here and Now is Carleen Watson. Thanks

34:31

for listening. Jasmine

34:44

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latest season is called My Way. Stories

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