0:02

This is Alec Baldwin, and you were listening

0:04

to Here's the Thing from iHeart

0:06

Radio. For decades,

0:09

everyone, it seemed, had a theory on

0:11

how it really happened. Maybe

0:14

it was the Russians or the mob, or

0:16

the CIA declarations

0:18

about the magic bullet, the Grassy

0:21

Knoll, and the shot or shots

0:23

that killed President John F. Kennedy

0:26

on November twenty two, nineteen sixty

0:28

three, in Dallas, Texas. Numerous

0:31

congressional committees were formed

0:33

to investigate the assassination without

0:36

any real results. From

0:38

the Warren Commission in nineteen sixty three,

0:40

to the Church Committee in nineteen seventy five,

0:43

to the US House of Representatives

0:46

Select Committee on Assassinations

0:48

in nineteen seventy six, none

0:50

of them put to bed the questions

0:52

surrounding the government's position that

0:54

Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone

0:57

gunman. The JFK

0:59

Assassination Records Collection Act

1:01

of nineteen ninety two sought to finally

1:04

establish some answers for the

1:06

American public. The Assassination

1:08

Records Review Board AARRB

1:12

followed. The independent federal

1:14

agency was created to record

1:17

and release as much information

1:19

to the public as possible. My

1:21

guest today Douglas Horn

1:24

worked as chief analyst on the Military

1:26

Records team for the AARRB

1:29

in Washington, d C. He was

1:31

a key participant in taking the

1:33

depositions of ten witnesses

1:35

to the JFK autopsy at

1:37

Bethesda Naval Hospital in nineteen

1:40

sixty three. Horn claims

1:42

to have seen evidence that finally

1:45

proves what many have believed all along

1:48

that the government was engaged in an extensive

1:50

conspiracy to cover up the

1:52

truth of the JFK assassination.

1:55

Horn believes there is proof that

1:58

the official autopsy and the famous

2:00

Zapruder film which captured the

2:02

events live, were both doctored.

2:05

I wanted to begin with how Horn

2:08

found himself working for the

2:10

a r RB.

2:13

I was with the Navy in different capacities

2:15

for twenty years, ten years on active duty

2:18

as a surface warfare officer driving

2:20

ships, and ten

2:23

more years as a civil servant with

2:25

the Navy.

2:26

And what's the difference, by the way, in terms of duties.

2:29

Well, on active duty driving ships

2:31

around, I was on three different warships, a frigate

2:33

and two guided missile cruisers. You know saying right,

2:35

standard rudder all engines had full that

2:38

kind of thing. And as

2:40

a civil servant. I was in a field office

2:42

providing logistics support for some anti

2:45

submarine warfare ships. So that

2:47

was the same job every day ashore,

2:50

you know, with no risk involved, you know, just

2:52

going home and sleep at night, but

2:55

still very much working for the same Navy, just

2:57

in one in uniform, in the second

3:00

one not in uniform. And

3:03

so the way I

3:05

was steered toward working

3:07

for the review board was that was

3:09

Oliver Stone's movie coming out, of course in

3:11

nineteen ninety one, late nineteen ninety one and

3:14

then into nineteen ninety

3:16

two, there was a lot of talk about his film,

3:19

and that caused me to reread.

3:22

One of the major books in my life

3:24

was David Lufton's Best Evidence, which

3:27

was all about the medical evidence. And while mister

3:30

Lufton did not come up with all the answers,

3:33

he did draw attention to a major

3:35

problem, which was that the

3:37

wound on the President's head seen at Parkland

3:39

Hospital in Dallas, where he was treated,

3:42

was totally different from the wounds depicted

3:45

in the autopsy photographs taken it Bethesden

3:47

Naval Hospital. So he was very much

3:49

concerned about that dichotomy and

3:52

what was the reason for all that and so he

3:54

shifted the focus from the single bullet theory,

3:56

which had been the focus of the critics

3:59

since the late sixties, to

4:01

the head wounds, which I thought was appropriate. So after

4:05

Oliver Stones's film comes out and has a

4:07

a grand theme of a domestic conspiracy

4:10

and who might have been behind that, and

4:13

I noted at the end of his film, as did

4:15

everyone else, that he talked about how

4:18

all of the sensitive records of the House Select Committee

4:20

on Assassinations from the nineteen seventies

4:24

were sealed. We're under sealed for fifty years,

4:26

which was outrageous since

4:28

that was supposed to be a people's committee to

4:30

explain to the American people what happened, and

4:32

yet all their sensitive records are sealed. So

4:35

that led to the drafting of the JFK

4:37

Records Act by Robert

4:39

Blakey. Now Robert Blakey was

4:42

the Chief Council for the House Select Committee

4:44

on Assassinations Chief Council

4:46

for the HSCA, the second

4:48

one after the first one was fired. The

4:50

first one wanted to do a real murder investigation.

4:53

Well, this is church committee.

4:55

No, this is right after the Church Committee

4:57

was the HSCA. Church Committee

4:59

was not the and the HSCA

5:01

was formed in seventy six and

5:03

then wound up its work in seventy

5:06

eight and published its report in

5:09

nineteen seventy nine. So anyway, Robert

5:11

Blake, who had been the second Chief Council

5:13

for the HSCA, he drafts

5:15

this legislation called the JFK Records

5:18

Act, and it has bipartisan

5:20

support in Congress, primarily

5:23

by two different mindsets

5:25

of people. So the mainstream

5:28

senators, people like John Glenn and David

5:30

Boren, who was head of the Intelligence Committee

5:32

in the Senate, they supported the JFK

5:34

Records Act because they said, we'll show all these

5:37

people that think there was a conspiracy in this country

5:39

to kill Kennedy and they think there was a cover

5:41

up, We'll show them by releasing all the records.

5:44

We'll let all the records come out and be put

5:46

in a public collection in the archives for

5:48

public access. And that's why

5:50

we support this bill. And then of course there were many

5:53

others who supported the bill because

5:55

they didn't trust the government and they thought that things

5:57

were being withheld that were important and that the

6:00

American people still didn't know the true

6:02

story of what had happened. So this bill

6:04

got bipartisan support and it was passed

6:06

into law. And so what

6:09

happened to me was I went to my first

6:11

JFK symposium in nineteen ninety

6:13

three and it was in Dallas,

6:16

and what I found out it

6:18

was electrifying. There were people on

6:20

stage for six days, people

6:22

who were PhDs in history, mds

6:25

philosophy majors, and accredited

6:28

teachers who were discussing this subject.

6:31

And then I realized that this validates

6:33

all the books I've been reading for years, since

6:35

I was a teenager, that there are

6:37

serious problems with the evidence in this case.

6:40

Right, so you've been focused on this years

6:42

before.

6:43

Yes, sir, I remember buying the condensed

6:46

edition of the Warren Report in paperback

6:48

through the weekly reader program in school

6:51

I believe it was elementary school and not

6:53

being satisfied with it. There were no pictures,

6:55

there were no autopsy photographs published. I

6:58

wasn't satisfied with some parts, that's what I

7:00

thought were kind of simplistic. And yes, I

7:02

even thought that at the age of fourteen, Yes,

7:04

I did so. Then I proceeded

7:06

to read the other first generation books Rushed

7:08

to Judgment by Mark Lane, Accessories

7:11

after the Fact by Sylvia Maher six seconds

7:13

in Dallas.

7:14

Robert sam Anson.

7:16

Right, So Robert sam Anson was a big one in the

7:18

seventies. They've killed the President, right,

7:20

That was a big book. So I went

7:22

to my first symposium in nineteen ninety three.

7:24

It was very well attended. It was the thirtieth anniversary

7:27

of the assassination.

7:28

Who hosted the event just a profit.

7:30

Making group called ASK. It

7:32

was a for profit symposium organization,

7:35

but all of the people that were there

7:37

were very highly credentialed and

7:40

very serious people who had either written books already

7:42

or had published papers. And they

7:44

actually had people from both sides of the spectrum

7:47

arguing with each other, which was great

7:49

to see that debate on stage, people

7:52

debating evidence. So

7:54

then how did I get hired by

7:56

the Review Board is a great story. I went

7:58

to another symposium in nineteen ninety

8:00

four in Washington, DC Research

8:03

Symposium and the last

8:05

speaker at the symposium

8:07

was Jack Tunheim. So Jack

8:09

Tunheim became the head of the Review

8:11

Board. The five board members had just been approved

8:14

by the US Senate and he

8:17

had been elected by his peers to be

8:19

the chairman of the Review Board. So

8:21

he came to speak to us and give his stump speech

8:24

about what the mission of the Review Board was,

8:26

which was essentially to act as librarians

8:29

and force their way into

8:31

government files, get agencies to cooperate

8:34

and release records that had been withheld,

8:37

records that were either still classified, or

8:39

records that the agencies just didn't

8:41

want released for some reason. They had parts of them

8:43

redacted, partially obliterated

8:46

with blackouts, you know. So he

8:49

was asked during his speech, are you

8:51

still hiring staff, and he said, yes, we are,

8:54

but you cannot have worked for a previous

8:56

investigation to work for the Review Board.

8:58

You cannot have worked for the Warren Commission or for

9:01

the House Select Committee in the seventies,

9:03

and you must not be a federal employee

9:06

at the current time. You must not be a current

9:08

federal employee. So I listened to that,

9:11

I thought, okay. I wrote

9:13

out a resume overnight, and I went to the first

9:15

public hearing the very next day of the Review

9:17

Board. So the Review Board didn't

9:20

really have a staff yet. They'd only hired one or

9:22

two clerical people. But they had their

9:24

first public hearing on how

9:26

do we define what an assassination record

9:28

is? We're going to try to get records released, how

9:30

do we define an assassination record? So

9:33

they had a public hearing at the Archives

9:36

and numerous leading lights of the research community

9:38

showed up and gave their opinions, and

9:40

I handed my resume to David Marwell.

9:43

At the time, he was the staff director, David

9:45

Marwell, and all they had hired

9:48

at that time were, you know, like two or three other people.

9:50

So over the next

9:53

six or seven months, from the autumn

9:55

of nineteen ninety four until March

9:57

of nineteen ninety five,

10:00

I underwent a gauntlet of telephone

10:02

interviews. So I was working back in Hawaii

10:04

at this time for the Navy and my civil service

10:06

job.

10:07

Did they suspend the rule that you couldn't

10:09

be a government employee on your behalf?

10:11

No, they didn't suspend the rule. It required

10:13

me to make a major sacrifice and to take

10:15

a big risk. So after

10:18

six interviews on the phone, I

10:21

finally got hired. But what I had to do

10:23

was actually resign from the civil service

10:26

for a couple of days and

10:28

then trust them that they

10:30

were going to be honorable and then pick me up. And

10:33

what that meant was I did not have return

10:35

rights to my job in Hawaii. If you're

10:37

in the civil service and you transferred

10:40

to an overseas job, you have return rights

10:42

to go back to your job after two or three years.

10:44

I did not have return rights. I literally

10:46

had to resign from civil service, and then they picked

10:48

me up, and I took a big pay cut,

10:51

about a thirty two percent pay cut to

10:53

go work for this temporary agency in

10:55

Washington, and they weren't going to pay for my

10:57

plane ticket or my move.

11:00

Did you do that? Why?

11:01

Well, I had become in

11:04

a good way, I think, obsessed

11:06

with the case because I

11:08

knew that none of the medical evidence

11:11

made any sense. It was the medical

11:13

evidence in the case was so full of conflicts

11:16

and things that didn't agree with each other and

11:19

people who had made opposing statements about

11:21

wounds that I thought, this

11:24

isn't right. If we live in the I was always

11:26

told as a kid, we live in the greatest

11:28

country in the world. My mother and father told

11:31

me that repeatedly. My father was

11:33

an ex marine, he was a Republican,

11:35

my mother was a Democrat. So we had an interesting

11:37

family with interesting dinner table conversations

11:40

disagreements. But they'd also told me

11:42

we're in the greatest country. And I had questioned

11:44

that a few times, is that really true? Do

11:47

you guys believe that? And they'd say, yes,

11:49

of course it's true, and they would look at me like,

11:51

why are you asking us? Well, this was the kind

11:53

of reason I was asking them. I

11:56

don't like being lied to. I really

11:58

don't like it. And if we're in a democracy

12:00

that's functioning, the government shouldn't

12:03

lie to the people, especially about

12:05

important things. And the two most important questions

12:07

I think that people should have on their minds

12:09

as far as the government telling them the truth

12:12

and being transparent is how do wars

12:14

begin?

12:15

Number one?

12:16

And number two, how do assassinations happen?

12:18

So you know, we had three big assassinations

12:21

four actually in the nineteen sixties

12:23

of people that mattered a lot to the public.

12:26

Is your fourth MegaR Evers? Or is it Malcolm

12:29

X?

12:29

Well, I'm thinking of Malcolm X.

12:30

Got yeah, so there's five as far as

12:32

that.

12:32

That would be five, that's right, that's right, Jack

12:35

Kennedy, RFK, Martin Luther King, Malcolm

12:38

X, and Medgar Evers. And so I've

12:41

never had any patience

12:43

with government lies. I know that to

12:45

some extent, I've learned, as

12:48

we all do, as we grow up that all governments

12:50

lie at one time or another about

12:53

different things. The question is how

12:55

often do they do that? And do they

12:57

lie about the really important things they

13:00

do? And you believe that democracy is important

13:03

and informed electorate is important,

13:05

you should do something about it. So I felt the call

13:07

to action, and I knew that

13:10

this effort to get documents

13:12

released was the last

13:14

official body

13:17

that would exist that was

13:19

going to deal with this subject. And it was clear

13:21

to me. So in the first place, why

13:23

did I know that? Well, I knew that because the Congress,

13:25

when they passed the JFK Records Act, they did

13:27

not have the guts to empower

13:30

another investigation. The Review Board

13:32

was not officially allowed to reinvestigate.

13:35

Our job is to find and locate

13:38

within the government assassination

13:40

records and then to force agencies

13:43

to release them directly to the archives. And then

13:45

if the agencies were not willing to do that,

13:47

and they still wanted to withhold some of these records,

13:50

then they had to give them to this body called

13:52

the Review Board, which was the middleman.

13:54

And that was their mandate.

13:55

That was our mandate, was to find the records

13:58

and review the ones that the agency did

14:00

not want to release. And the View Board

14:03

for the first time something called citizen review.

14:05

These five board members, working with

14:07

their staff, would decide what

14:10

was going to be released and what wasn't, and their

14:12

agencies were going to have to comply, and

14:14

the only way they

14:16

could not comply was to appeal to the President

14:19

and then he would make the decision. So I

14:21

thought this is worth being a part of because

14:24

it's an honorable thing to do to try to get the rest

14:26

of these records released, no matter what they say,

14:28

no matter what they tell us about the assassination.

14:31

And I also had

14:33

a great interest in the medical evidence,

14:35

and I thought, this is my chance, one way

14:37

or another to learn more about

14:40

the part of the case that intrigues me the most

14:42

were the conflicts and the medical evidence, because

14:45

I mean, a body after someone's

14:47

been killed by gunshot is a map

14:49

of the shooting. Where did the bullets go in, where

14:51

did they come out? And the diagrams

14:54

of those things tells you from whence

14:56

the bullets came. So I knew

14:59

that one of the people that had interviewed me, the

15:01

head of Research and Analysis, Jeremy Gunn,

15:04

was also the general counsel.

15:06

For the Review Board.

15:07

He was double headed and he had an

15:09

intense interest in the medical evidence as well,

15:11

and that became apparent during my interview.

15:14

So we clicked on that score. And

15:16

you know, he had to fill out four teams

15:18

of people, a military records

15:20

team, which is what I was hired to work

15:23

on, an FBI records team, a

15:25

CIA records team, and the fourth

15:27

one was Secret Service and all other agencies.

15:30

So officially they hired me because

15:33

they needed another person on the military

15:35

records team and they still

15:37

had a vacancy there, and they

15:39

also wanted to hire one person on

15:41

the staff, just one who was widely

15:44

read in the literature of the assassination,

15:46

the literature by the critics, and

15:49

so that I would know where to

15:51

go and what book to find leads on where to find

15:53

records. It was that simple

15:55

on the surface. Beneath the surface,

15:58

it was Jeremy Gunn someone

16:01

of a like mind to assist

16:03

him with looking into the medical and medicals. And

16:06

the reason is you might ask, well,

16:08

how can you look into that if you weren't allowed to reinvestigate.

16:11

Well, this was a special case. It's

16:14

a great story. Congressman

16:16

Stokes from Ohio, from Cleveland,

16:18

as it turned out, was still in office

16:20

at the time, and he met with

16:22

the five board members as

16:24

they were going through their process

16:26

of being confirmed by the Senate, and

16:29

he told them at the time

16:32

that no one was satisfied with

16:34

the findings of the House elect Committee on Assassinations

16:37

with regard to the medical evidence, no

16:39

one was really satisfied, and that he encouraged

16:42

them to do all they could to quote

16:44

clarify the record unquote in that area.

16:48

And so the board members had a

16:50

kind of an informal mandate from

16:53

the former chairman of the HSCA Chairman

16:55

Stokes, to do some let's call it

16:58

quasi reinvestigation. Other

17:00

words, the Review Board was never going to be allowed

17:02

to publish findings of fact or

17:04

conclusions. But what we

17:07

were allowed to do was take depositions

17:09

and conduct witness interviews. So

17:12

a deposition being a sworn witness interview

17:14

with a court recorder, you know, making a

17:16

record of it verbatim record, or

17:18

disconduct unsworn interviews

17:21

where we would write an interview report afterwards,

17:24

and we can deposit those in the JFK

17:26

records collection. So the American people

17:29

have can have access to these depositions

17:31

and interviews later and make up their own minds.

17:33

That was the whole idea, was that the American people

17:36

could study the records placed in the JFK

17:38

Records collection and make up their own

17:40

minds about what had happened. That's all the Congress

17:42

had stomach for. They did not have the stomach to

17:45

empower a new investigation.

17:47

So, just for clarity's sake, you're in Washington.

17:50

The board is in Washington. You

17:52

relocate to Washington. This is

17:54

formed by a Senate committee.

17:56

Oh no, the Senate approved

17:59

the board members who had been appointed.

18:01

Who formed the board?

18:02

Who formed the board, Well, the JFK Records

18:04

Act had baked into it the template

18:07

of how these people were selected. So one

18:09

of the people was selected by the American Bar

18:11

Association, and that was Jack Tunheim, who

18:15

shortly afterwards, after he accepted

18:17

his appointment, he was then given a federal

18:19

judgeship and accepted it.

18:21

So he's a federal judge at the time I go to work

18:24

there.

18:24

But the formation of the board is embedded

18:26

in the Act itself.

18:27

Oh, it's embedded in the Act. So the Act established

18:30

the requirement to locate and declassified

18:32

records. It established the structure

18:34

of the board, and so two of the board members were appointed

18:37

by American historical societies, the

18:39

unions as it were for college history

18:41

professors.

18:42

Yeah, a lot of academics.

18:43

Here, academics, and one was an

18:45

archivist, and one was appointed

18:48

by the White House. So that was another historian,

18:50

Henry Grafts. So Henry graft is an historian.

18:52

Bill Joyce was an archivist. Kermit

18:55

Hall and Anna Nelson were historians, and then

18:57

Jack Dunheim was a federal judge.

19:00

The board is embedded in the act itself. How

19:02

many people on the staff would you say?

19:04

There were about twenty five people on

19:06

the staff roughly when we were

19:09

fully staffed up, and most

19:11

of them were analysts like myself, and

19:13

some were clerical, but most were analysts.

19:16

So on the Military Records Team, I

19:19

had three major areas of interest

19:21

which Jeremy Gunn, my boss,

19:24

my big boss, supported and concurred with.

19:26

So the first one was finding records

19:28

in the government on Cuba and Vietnam

19:31

policy, and that was the function of

19:33

the Military Records Team. The second

19:35

area of interest was the medical evidence

19:37

and the reason I got to do that as a military

19:40

team member was it was a military autopsy,

19:42

but as the Naval hospital, so that

19:44

falls under the military team. That's the

19:46

big unofficial reason why Jeremy hired

19:49

me was I had an interest and a

19:51

knowledge of that area. And

19:53

the third area of interest which was

19:55

developed as time went along was the Suppruter

19:57

film, which we can get into later.

20:00

Get into that. So my question, then, my last

20:02

question before we dig into the main media, is

20:05

when you do depositions of ten people?

20:07

Are you doing this completely on your own? Are there lawyers

20:10

with you? Do you do with a staff

20:12

of people do conduct the depositions?

20:14

Here's how it went. The person in

20:16

charge of all ten autopsy

20:19

deponents, all ten depositions

20:21

of autopsy participants and witnesses

20:24

was Jeremy Gunn. He was our general counsel.

20:27

He was the only one allowed to

20:29

ask questions and talk to the witness during the

20:31

deposition. So he started

20:33

out with a small group of three people I

20:35

think, helping him develop exhibits and

20:37

do research for him before the depositions,

20:40

and that was whittled down to one person

20:42

and that was me. So I was his primary

20:44

and then sole research assistant

20:46

in preparing for each deposition. So I attended

20:49

each deposition with Jeremy.

20:51

I sat right next to him. I was allowed

20:53

to pass him notes. I was expected

20:55

to hand him the exhibit when he needed it, hand

20:58

him the correct exhibit, constructive

21:01

suggestions if he was forgetting an important question,

21:04

or write him notes. But he was the only one

21:06

allowed to speak to the witnesses.

21:08

You were there to assist him. Can you mention

21:10

at least a couple of the people you'd deposed.

21:12

Sure, all three autopsy pathologists

21:15

at Bethesdenel Hospital, which was doctor

21:18

Humes in the Navy, doctor

21:20

Boswell in the Navy, and then

21:22

an Army pathologist, doctor Fink,

21:25

who arrived late after the

21:27

autopsy started and assisted

21:29

the other two pathologists. So they were still alive,

21:32

and they reluctantly participated

21:34

only because we subpoened them and

21:36

they didn't call our bluff and they

21:39

decided to reluctantly show up. They weren't

21:41

looking forward to it, but they showed up.

21:43

Well. Was their demeanor when they were being deposed.

21:45

And their demeanor very different. Humes

21:48

was a domineering, arrogant

21:50

person, full of bluster. When he couldn't

21:52

bully you into backing off from a question, he

21:54

gave you a flippant answer. And

21:56

there were four or five times during his deposition

21:58

when I thought he was going to get up and walk out.

22:01

How dare you subpoena me?

22:03

And how dare you ask me those questions? Doctor

22:06

Boswell was very laconic, calm

22:08

measured in his responses, and

22:11

totally unlike Humes in personality. He

22:13

was not combative and he was not arrogant. Doctor

22:16

Fink played the game of I'm an old man,

22:18

I can't remember anything. Fortunately,

22:21

in two or three important instances he

22:23

did remember and gave us to honest answers,

22:26

which we can get into, but he played

22:28

I'm a forgetful old man as a cop out.

22:31

Boswell gave us much more information

22:33

than either of the other two, and

22:35

for the first time we had split up the

22:37

pathologists and done them on different days.

22:40

They weren't in the room at the same time, so we got

22:43

Boswell contradicting Humes on a number

22:45

of occasions which had never happened before, which

22:47

was very important. So two of the

22:49

other important opponents were the

22:51

two FBI agents who were present at the autopsy,

22:54

Cybert and O'Neil. They had

22:56

been interviewed briefly by Arlen Spector,

22:59

one of the Warren Commision staff attorneys

23:01

who later became a senator. And

23:04

he didn't get along with them. They didn't get along

23:06

with him, and he decided he was

23:08

not going to take their depositions. And

23:10

even the report they wrote about what they witnessed

23:13

at the autopsy was deep

23:15

sixth and it wasn't published by the Warren Commission.

23:17

It was in the archives, but the Warren Commission didn't

23:19

publish it or deal with it.

23:22

Well.

23:22

They maintained that that yes, they

23:24

heard hum say that there were only two

23:27

shots that hit the president, and they were both from behind,

23:29

but that the back wound was so low that

23:32

it couldn't possibly have gone through his neck, and

23:34

that it did not exit the body anywhere,

23:37

and so the government didn't like that, and

23:39

the Warren Commission didn't like that. So that's

23:42

why they were ignored. So that the House Committee

23:44

had interviewed them. The House staff

23:46

had interviewed them each one

23:48

time, and they wrote little interview

23:50

reports, and then those reports were among

23:53

the records that were sealed for fifty years, which

23:55

was nonsense. And so we

23:57

read their interview reports and all the other House

24:00

Select Committee interview reports in nineteen

24:02

ninety three when they were opened up by the JFKA

24:04

Records Act in ninety three, they became

24:06

publicly available. So we had

24:09

reviewed all of these medical witness

24:11

interviews from the HSCA, and

24:13

we decided, oh, we need to depose these FBI

24:16

agents. The government hasn't taken their their

24:18

statements under oath yet, so we did and

24:20

they were very forthcoming and very

24:22

willing to cooperate.

24:24

Well before we dive into Bethesda

24:27

and autopsys. So for I wanted to just ask you,

24:29

in American history in the

24:31

last several decades, I can't

24:33

think of a greater example of this

24:36

kind of gamesmanship where the American

24:38

public, and particularly that small section

24:41

of it that has a burning curiosity

24:43

about the truth of this matter. I

24:45

mean, I was five years old when Kennedy was killed,

24:48

but I've been obsessed with it since I was, Like you said,

24:50

since I think I picked up They've killed

24:52

the President on a little turning

24:54

book display in a seven to eleven

24:57

on the South Shove of Long Island where I grew up, and

24:59

there was Oswald's autopsy

25:01

photograph his naked body on a slab.

25:04

And yet there are no autopsy photos of the president,

25:07

which was the subject of the book, which was really

25:09

strange when you think about.

25:10

It, right, right, but nothing compares

25:12

in our lifetimes in my mind, to

25:16

this treatment of the Warren Commission

25:18

material. Every decade, we're going

25:20

to roll out this stuff, We're going to give

25:23

you all the information. We're gonna have the Presidential Release

25:26

Act or whatever the hell it is. Who cares?

25:29

And even recently with Trump when he was in office,

25:31

it was like, well, here it is again, We're

25:33

going to roll out all the stuff and lay bare all

25:35

the secrets and all the truths about Kennedy's

25:38

assassination. And then nah, maybe not.

25:41

Who do you think or who do you know?

25:43

Because of all this work you've done with records,

25:45

Who do you think really controls this information?

25:48

And who do you and therefore is suppressing

25:50

it from being I'm assuming he's not the President's

25:53

who controls this information and refuses

25:55

to release it.

25:56

It's my understanding that of

25:59

those records which are still withheld,

26:02

almost every single one is a CIA

26:04

record, and it's that agency

26:07

comes up. They come up with the last

26:09

minute every time there's a you know,

26:12

let's back up just a second here. So the

26:14

last of the Review Board records

26:17

that had been withheld for a number of years

26:19

were supposed to have been released in the year

26:21

twenty seventeen, no matter what. So

26:24

before that there was a staggered sequence

26:27

of releases withholding

26:29

names or withholding

26:32

some sources and methods and things like that

26:35

if they were considered sensitive. And

26:38

in the year twenty seventeen, everything was supposed

26:40

to be released and it wasn't. So we got a

26:42

false alarm under Trump and then false alarms

26:45

under Biden, where each time it was the CIA

26:48

primarily they came up and said, oh, not so fast,

26:50

mister President. We object to the release of these

26:53

remaining records, a few thousand

26:55

records because we think it

26:57

will damage national security. Just

27:00

nonsense. This many years later.

27:05

Jfk assassination expert

27:08

Douglas Horn. If you enjoy

27:10

conversations with those with the

27:12

inside track on how our government

27:15

actually works, check out my episode

27:17

with Michael Wolfe, author of Fire

27:20

and Fury, Inside the

27:22

Trump White House.

27:24

Not to be too high falutin, but I try to make

27:26

a distinction between being a journalist

27:29

and being a writer. I'm

27:31

interested in, you know, why people

27:33

do things, how they got to

27:35

be who they are, how they talk, how

27:37

they roll, and maybe in the end,

27:40

the big difference I see between myself

27:42

and everybody else is It's just me. I don't

27:44

work for a company on the page. You

27:47

just get me, and you can

27:49

be assured of that it's not something

27:51

else, It's not some other committee.

27:55

To hear more of my conversation

27:58

with Michael Wolf, go to Here's

28:00

the Thing dot org. After

28:03

the break, Douglas Horn tells

28:05

us why and how Kennedy's

28:08

autopsy photos were falsified.

28:20

I'm Alec Baldwin, and you were

28:22

listening to Here's the Thing. John

28:25

F. Kennedy was shot while

28:27

riding in the presidential motorcade through Dealey

28:30

Plaza. The thirty fifth

28:32

president of the United States, was taken

28:34

to Parkland Hospital in Dallas, Texas

28:37

and pronounced dead. I

28:39

wanted ARRB chief

28:42

analyst Douglas Horn to

28:44

walk us through the events that followed.

28:47

So he shot at twelve thirty. They

28:49

arrived at the hospital about twelve thirty eight.

28:52

He's pronounced dead at one o'clock. He

28:54

actually flatlined a few minutes before that,

28:56

but he was officially pronounced dead at one o'clock.

28:59

A funeral home rings an

29:01

ornate display coffin, very

29:04

heavy bronze coffin, and he's put

29:06

in that, and he's taken on board

29:08

Air Force one at love Field at

29:11

two fourteen pm, and then

29:13

Jackie goes on board at two eighteen pm.

29:16

And then the judge arrives at

29:19

two thirty pm to swear hi men, to swear

29:21

in LBJ, which many

29:23

people have said was not necessary. But he wanted

29:25

the public relations value of that photograph,

29:29

and so he got it.

29:29

He got what he wanted.

29:31

The plane takes off at two forty seven Central

29:33

time, it lands,

29:35

it's about a two hour and thirteen minute trip.

29:37

So it lands at Andrews Air Force Base

29:40

south of Washington, d C. At

29:42

six o'clock pm Local time, six

29:44

o'clock pm Eastern Standard time. And

29:47

that's where the story gets strange.

29:50

And I'm just going to relay some simple facts,

29:52

timeline facts to your audience and

29:55

hopefully it'll attract some attention

29:57

and they'll stay tuned here because this is the heart

29:59

of the story. The Secret

30:01

Service in radio conversations, which

30:04

we have recordings of. Much

30:06

of the conversations, part of them has

30:08

been edited and remain edited. But

30:10

the Secret Service decided that the

30:13

autopsy is going to be at Bethesda Naval Hospital

30:16

and that the body would go by helicopter. That

30:18

was what they decided on the radio telling

30:21

the airplane. The people on the airplane wanted

30:23

the autopsy at Walter Reed Army

30:25

Hospital, and they

30:27

wanted it to go buy a car, but the Secret

30:29

Service said, no, we're going to do it at Bethesda and

30:32

the Navy, and we're going to fly it

30:35

by helicopter. So here's what happens. The

30:37

plane comes to a stop at six oh four

30:39

PM. A light gray Navy ambulance

30:42

pulls up next to the airplane. Now

30:44

that was a cardiac ambulance. It was not a hearse.

30:47

It was sent because there was a rumor that Lyndon

30:49

Johnson had another heart attack like he had in the

30:51

nineteen fifties. That was why that was

30:53

sent there. So anyway, Jackie

30:55

sees the gray ambulance and she

30:57

says, we'll go in that. And

31:00

nobody was going to contradict her in those

31:02

circumstances. So the

31:05

casket that the President was

31:07

placed in Dallas, the heavy bronze casket

31:09

was loaded somewhat

31:12

unceremoniously by Secret

31:14

Service agents and part of the military

31:16

honor guard. They're both kind of fighting over who's

31:18

going to handle the casket. It's

31:20

put into the cardiac ambulance because

31:22

Jackie said, we'll go in that, and

31:25

that drives away at about ten

31:28

minutes after six. Is she in the car, Yes,

31:30

she's in the car with Robert Kennedy and the

31:32

President's military physician Berkeley, and

31:35

the two Secret Service agents who were in the death

31:37

car in Dallas. They're in there. Agent

31:40

Greer's driving. He drove the

31:42

limousine in Dallas and he drove this cardiac

31:44

ambulance. He kicked the driver out and he took

31:46

over Gweer and who Greer

31:49

and Kellerman and Roy Kellerman was in the right front

31:51

seat of the limousine in Dallas, and he's in the

31:53

right front seat of this like

31:56

gray ambulance. So they all drive out and that

31:58

car.

31:59

This is very now.

32:00

That car does not arrive at Bethesda

32:03

Naval Hospital until six

32:05

fifty five pm, five minutes

32:08

to seven. That's recorded by Secret

32:10

Service agents in the reports and by the newspapermen.

32:12

So that's a fact. You can't ignore that

32:14

fact. But here's here's the problem.

32:16

There was a Marine Corps sergeant

32:19

named Boyagiin and

32:21

Sergeant Boyagin was there to provide

32:23

physical security with his marines from

32:25

the Marine barracks for the autopsy,

32:28

and he wrote a report just a

32:30

few days later, the day after the funeral. Funeral's

32:32

on Monday, the twenty fifth November. He writes a report

32:34

the next day, and he says

32:36

the president's casket arrived at

32:39

six thirty five PM. Six thirty

32:41

five, that's twenty minutes before

32:43

the motorcade arrives out front from

32:47

Andrews. And not only that, it's in the wrong

32:49

car and it's in the wrong kind of casket. So other

32:51

people who were present on the loading dock noted

32:54

that the car that delivered the

32:56

President at six thirty five PM

32:59

was a black hearse, something

33:01

that a funeral home would own,

33:04

in this case Gawler's funeral home. They

33:06

did the embalming on the President, so it's their car.

33:09

And the casket taken off at six

33:11

thirty five is not this ornate bronze

33:14

viewing casket that was used in Dallas.

33:17

It's a cheap aluminum metal

33:20

shipping casket that you would use to ship bodies

33:22

on airplanes and trains with. So

33:25

we have the new time

33:27

marker, the real time marker of six thirty

33:29

five PM when JFK really arrives at

33:31

Bethesda, and we have other witnesses,

33:34

very reliable witnesses, Navy Petty

33:36

Officer Dennis David and others that'd

33:38

say, yes, it's arrived in a blackhearse and

33:41

we unloaded the casket. It was a cheap gray

33:43

metal box. It was not a fancy viewing asport

33:46

casket. Yeah right, it was a transport ca So

33:49

the real question is and so let's

33:51

give the audience to the other time marker. The

33:54

honor guard is separate

33:56

and distinct from the

33:58

security guard. So the security guards at

34:00

the morgue or Sergeant Boyagian's team

34:02

of Marines from the Marine barracks, they're

34:05

people wearing the same uniform and they're carrying

34:07

guns, and that's their jobs to provide

34:09

physical security. The honor Guard

34:11

are people that assembled at Andrews Air

34:13

Force Base. There are people from all the different

34:15

military services plus the Coastguard. They're

34:18

in dress uniforms, they're wearing white

34:20

gloves, and they do not have guns

34:22

and their jobs to serve as pall

34:25

bearers an honor guard. So

34:28

they carry the Dallas casket, the bronze

34:30

expensive casket, and at eight o'clock PM,

34:33

much later, not until eight o'clock

34:35

PM, and the official autopsy starts

34:38

shortly after eight o'clock PM, and

34:40

in fact, the FBI agent's recorded in

34:42

their report that the first incision

34:45

was at eight to fifteen. So we've got

34:47

some problems here.

34:48

So what happened? You've got my heart

34:50

pounding here. It's like a shell game. Which

34:53

casket is JFK's body in?

34:55

It is a shell game, and it's an intentional

34:57

shell game. It's a cover up on the fly. So here's

35:00

that's what happens. The president's body really

35:02

did arrive at six thirty five PM

35:04

in the black curse, in the cheap

35:06

metal shipping casket, the transport casket,

35:09

and that's recorded by a gawler's

35:11

funeral home document where they say, receive

35:14

a metal shipping casket, you know

35:16

from Dallas, Texas. Okay, So

35:19

when a person from a funeral home runs shipping casket,

35:22

that means something to them. It's not an

35:24

ornate viewing coffin. It's a shipping casket.

35:26

So the question is what happened

35:28

to his body between six thirty

35:31

five when it really arrived

35:34

and eight o'clock PM when the honor guard

35:36

takes in the bronze casket. What happens

35:38

for those it's almost ninety minutes. It's an eighty

35:41

five minute period. What's happening to his body.

35:44

I'll cut to the chase and give

35:46

you the big picture now, because I think it's important

35:48

that people have that in their minds, and then we can

35:50

go back and tie up any loose ends

35:52

if you'd like after. But here's what really happened.

35:55

The President arrived with the same

35:57

wounds he had on his head in Della

36:00

Texas. A big blowout in

36:02

the right rear of his head, about the size of a

36:04

baseball or a human fist, in

36:06

the right rear of his head, not

36:08

in the top of his head, and not on

36:11

the right side of his head, in the right

36:13

rear of his head. That's the blowout that's missing

36:15

bone and scalp. A flap, Well,

36:18

there was more than just a flap with.

36:20

That chunk of bone that was flapped over

36:22

that stayed correct intact, that flap

36:24

that they closed.

36:25

Well, no, that's not true. That's the story that

36:27

the government's been wanting to tell.

36:29

And that's a bogus picture. Okay, thank god you're

36:31

here to tell me.

36:32

For example, the reason we know it's a bogus

36:34

picture is Agent Clint Hill, the Secret

36:36

Service. Most people have heard his name. He

36:38

rode on the back of the car, the

36:40

limousine on the way to the hospital. He jumped

36:42

onto the JFK's limousine and

36:45

shielded the President and first Lady for

36:48

seven or eight minutes on the way to Parkland. And

36:51

he wrote a report a week later, and

36:53

he testified the following spring, and

36:55

he said the same thing each time, that

36:57

the right rear of the President's head was

37:00

missing, and that a piece

37:02

of bone with hair on it was

37:05

lying in the back seat. So it's

37:07

very clear from him and from the Dallas

37:09

doctor's treatment notes, the

37:11

treatment notes they made the day that

37:14

the President died, that there

37:16

is a large area of missing bone

37:18

and scalp in the right rear.

37:19

The uniformity among all the staff at Barklay.

37:22

Yes, Yes, uniformity. And so when

37:25

the President was taken out of his shipping

37:27

casket and first examined, he had the

37:29

same wound on his head, the same noticeable

37:33

large exit wound in the right rear of

37:35

the head, because exit wounds

37:37

are big and entrance wounds are small, that

37:41

he had in Dallas. The trouble

37:43

is over an hour and a half later

37:46

at the official autopsy after eight

37:48

o'clock in front of a large

37:50

audience of over thirty three people. And

37:53

this is a teaching hospital, so you've

37:55

got a bleachers there, three rows of bleachers,

37:58

very large audience there. The

38:00

wounds look totally different after eight o'clock

38:03

at night. The entire top of the head is

38:05

gone. All the bone on the top of his head has

38:07

been removed. There's nothing but shredded scalp

38:09

on the top.

38:10

Of his head.

38:11

The rear of his head is also still

38:14

gone, but you can't tell that from the photographs

38:17

those have been that's been cleverly disguised.

38:19

So most of the autopsy

38:21

photographs that show the top of

38:23

the head missing gone, which is not

38:25

what anybody saw on Dallas. The back

38:27

of the head is obscured in those photographs. It's

38:30

lying in a metal head brace. So he's

38:32

lying on his back on an examination

38:35

table. You can't see the back of his head

38:37

because his head is supported in a metal stirrup

38:39

or head brace, so all you can see is the right

38:42

side, which is rather gory

38:44

looking, flapped out, big temporal

38:46

bone flap flapped out, and the top of the head

38:48

missing like what. So

38:51

I'm telling you that that's what was

38:53

going on between

38:56

the early arrival of the president's body and

38:59

they started the autopsy. His

39:01

wounds were expanded to gain

39:03

access to his brain

39:06

and remove all the metal that could be found

39:08

from his brain.

39:09

In that ninety minute window. Oh yes, well,

39:11

I want to put a finer point on this for the

39:13

audience. And in that ninety minute window,

39:16

which is not accounted for specifically,

39:18

I mean it is as far as you're concern But in that ninety

39:20

minute window, obviously we have some of the most

39:22

purposeful cosmetic surgery

39:25

ever performed in history to make it

39:27

look like he was shot from behind.

39:28

Correct, I will disagree with that. So

39:32

here's the deal. What was done to him

39:35

was not only profane and highly

39:38

illegal obstruction of justice. At

39:40

the very least, it was just like

39:42

opening up a can. Okay, nothing

39:45

was put back together. This is where Lyfton

39:47

went astray in his book Best Evidence. There was no

39:49

reconstructive surgery to put back

39:52

together what these conspirators had

39:54

opened up to get access to evidence. He

39:57

was presented that way to the audience

39:59

after eight o'clock as well.

40:01

This is the way he arrived. This is what the

40:03

bullet did. It blew off part

40:05

of the back of his head and the entire top

40:08

of his head and part of the right side of his head. It

40:10

blew it all away, and so the audience was disbelieving

40:14

of this. There this audience

40:16

was were medical staff the hospital,

40:19

They were heads of department and other

40:21

physicians, and so they

40:24

were aghast at this macabre

40:27

scene that they saw. After eight o'clock, some

40:29

of the people you deposed, the House

40:31

Committee interviewed some of these people

40:33

in the audience, and what

40:37

we have over the years is there

40:39

were two Navy cormen who

40:41

were present assisting the three pathologists

40:44

all night long. The two Navy cormen

40:46

were Paul O'Connor and James

40:49

Jenkins. And so what they

40:51

told the House Committee and what they've told

40:54

researchers over the years after the

40:56

gag order was lifted in the seventies, was

40:58

that the audience was hostile

41:00

in disbelieving that a bullet, one bullet

41:02

could have caused all this cranial damage.

41:04

And it's even worse than that. Alec

41:07

Jim Jenkins, this corman I just mentioned,

41:09

witnessed after eight o'clock.

41:12

He witnessed the brain of the president literally

41:14

fell out of his cranium into the hands of doctor

41:16

Humes, and doctor Humes said, quote

41:19

unquote, the damn thing's fallen

41:21

out in my hands, quote unquote. That

41:23

just doesn't happen, Alex. I

41:26

mean, your brain is connected to your spinal cord

41:28

and there are other structures connecting

41:30

the brain to the bottom of your cranium, and.

41:33

It fell out because it had been previously

41:35

removed to pull out all the

41:37

metal out of his brain, that's right.

41:38

And so what was done between six point

41:41

thirty five and eight o'clock was

41:43

somebody sanitized the crime scene by

41:45

removing evidence, removing entrance

41:47

wounds from the front where they could up

41:50

cover up, removing as much

41:52

bullet as you could from the brain, in which

41:55

if you do that, if you remove all the

41:57

bullet fragments from the brain, then you can control

42:00

the narrative later with planet bullets,

42:02

which is what they did. So, Yeah,

42:04

that brain had been removed earlier. And Jim Jenkins

42:07

is still alive, and he insists today that it

42:09

had to have been removed earlier

42:12

that evening because a brain just doesn't

42:14

fall out of your cranium like that, and his

42:17

job is to infuse the brain. So the brain was

42:19

put upside down in a sling,

42:21

in a bucket of fromaldehyde, and it was his job

42:24

to infuse the

42:26

arteries. You know, the carotid arteries go

42:29

up through your neck into your brain. And so

42:31

the brain that had been removed was put upside

42:33

down in a bucket in a sling, and it

42:35

was Jenkins's job to infuse the

42:37

arteries with fromaldehyde

42:40

from a big container on top of a cabinet.

42:42

And he had a very hard time infusing

42:46

formaldehyde into the brain because he said the

42:48

arteries had been cut earlier

42:51

and were retracting all by themselves. They were

42:53

shrinking and shriveling up and retracting, and

42:55

he says, that's proof that the brain was removed

42:58

earlier that night. He says,

43:00

also the brain stem had been severed

43:03

on the left and the right with two surgical

43:06

cuts. It was not torn, two surgical cuts

43:09

that were on different planes, on different

43:11

levels. So he noticed all

43:13

this when he was infusing the brain. So that's

43:15

evidence to him that the brain was removed earlier

43:17

that evening. So Humes

43:20

and Boswell are engaged in a charade after

43:22

eight o'clock. You have to understand this. The audience

43:24

expresses disbelief that this damage

43:27

could all have been caused by one bullet. And

43:29

at that point, Humes says,

43:32

and the FBI agents recorded this that

43:34

that's why the Warrant Commission didn't want to publish

43:36

their report. They said, he said that it

43:38

was apparent that surgery had

43:40

been performed on the top of the head. Humes

43:43

said that, and they recorded what he

43:45

said. Now, I think he panicked, is what happened.

43:47

He panicked because Jim Jenkins

43:50

recalls doctor Boswell Humes's

43:53

colligue saying to the people

43:55

in the gallery. There were flag officers, generals

43:57

and admirals in the gallery, and they saying to

43:59

them, whe is there surgery performed

44:01

and died? Yeah? Boss says

44:03

that, yeah, yeah. And so here's the problem.

44:06

Boswell created this famous sketch

44:08

from the autopsy, which

44:10

is the damage to the top of the president's head. And

44:14

if you look at that sketch today, you'll

44:16

see that it's only the top

44:18

of the head. So when he makes the sketch, the

44:20

President's lying on his back on the examination

44:22

table. He's sketching the damage to the

44:24

top of the head, and what he sketches

44:27

is totally unlike anything seen at

44:29

Parkland Hospital. He sketches the

44:31

entire the bone and the entire top of the head

44:33

missing, and he writes the dimensions

44:35

of this area ten by seventeen centimeters

44:38

missing. So he was asked by the House

44:41

Committee and then by the Review Board under

44:43

oath, what do these notations

44:45

mean? You drew a dotted line around the top of the

44:47

head ten by seventeen missing. He said,

44:49

this is the area that was totally devoid

44:51

of bone, and so he would

44:53

he's representing in his sketch and

44:56

for posterity that this was

44:58

all removed by the assass bullet blown

45:01

out. And of course we

45:03

went down to Dallas, Jeremy Gunn and I. We

45:05

interviewed three people

45:08

who saw the president's body while he was being

45:10

treated, who were not interviewed by

45:12

the Worn Commission, and we asked, Nurse

45:14

Bell and doctor Crenshaw, did

45:17

you see any damage to the top of the President's

45:19

head? And they looked at us like we were

45:21

crazy, and they said no. Then they used

45:23

that tone of voice, they said no. They were

45:25

astonished that we would ask. They said, the

45:28

top of his head to all appearances,

45:30

appeared to be intact. They

45:32

said there was no bone sticking out, and

45:35

the hair appeared to be intact.

45:37

There was blood everywhere. There was a lot of blood.

45:40

And so what Boswell is doing, I think, is

45:43

making a sketch before eight o'clock PM

45:46

of the damage incurred by this

45:48

post mortem surgery to sanitize the crime

45:50

scene. And he's representing it

45:53

as damage from the assassin's bullet.

45:56

And it's a con job, to be honest

45:58

with you. So if you marry up his

46:00

sketch with the two Grizzly autopsy

46:02

photos that show the top of the head

46:04

missing, they more or less match.

46:07

And yet so here's what we did, which was really

46:09

fascinating. We knew we had a two dimensional

46:11

diagram made by Boswell of just

46:14

the top of the head and the bone missing

46:16

from the top of the head. And I

46:18

had suggested to Jeremy Gunn I said,

46:21

we need to present him with a skull model. I

46:23

said, I know where to get one. I can build

46:25

one that's anatomically correct. It's got all the sutures

46:28

in it, where the bones really are and everything. We

46:30

can ask him to turn that two dimensional

46:32

sketch into a three dimensional sketch

46:34

so that we can find out was there any bone

46:37

missing in the back. And so we did that, and

46:40

doctor Boswell marked on the skull

46:42

model and it's in the archives. You can see it today

46:44

if you make an appointment and go look at it. That

46:47

not only according to him, is the bone

46:49

missing in the top of the head and on

46:51

the right side of the head, but it's all missing

46:54

in the right rear also, in other words, the

46:56

place where the Dallas doctors said it was gone in

46:58

the right rear. It's also missing there,

47:01

but also in the top and the right side. So he was

47:04

honest about that much. At least, he

47:06

was honest about the fact that all the

47:08

bone was missing in the right rear, whereas

47:10

doctor Humes wasn't. He lied and said, oh no,

47:12

that was all that was all intact.

47:15

It was fractured, but it was all intact. None

47:17

of it was missing. And then a week later, under oath,

47:19

Boswell contradicts him and tells us

47:21

the truth that, oh no, that was missing

47:23

too.

47:27

Assassination Records Review Board

47:30

Chief analyst Douglas Horn. If

47:32

you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend

47:35

and be sure to follow here's the thing on

47:38

the iHeartRadio app, Spotify

47:40

or wherever you get your podcasts.

47:44

When we come back, Douglas

47:46

Horn shares the timeline for

47:48

developing the Zappruder film and

47:51

what he believes happened that led to

47:53

it being doctored. I'm

48:03

ALC. Baldwin and you're listening to

48:05

Here's the thing. Douglas Horn

48:07

believes that a cover up of the

48:10

JFK assassination began

48:12

almost instantaneously. Horn

48:15

collected data and evidence that he

48:17

claims can prove that the conspiracy

48:20

stretched from Washington, d C.

48:22

And Bethesda Naval Hospital in Maryland

48:25

to Parkland Hospital in Dallas.

48:28

Well, there's one man on the ground in Dallas.

48:31

It's really important to understand this. Who's an honest

48:33

broker in all this? So the county

48:35

coroner, Earl Rose, Doctor Earl Rose,

48:38

said, this is a murderer in Dallas

48:40

County and we have to do an autopsy.

48:42

It's the law in the state of Texas. And

48:45

you're not leaving with the body. And

48:47

he says, we're going to do an autopsy in Texas and

48:49

that's at this point. At

48:51

this point JFK's body had been he

48:54

had long been declared dead at one o'clock.

48:56

This is shortly before two pm.

48:58

He's in this bronze ornate casket,

49:01

the casket sealed. It's on a church truck,

49:03

a vehicle with wheels. They can go up and

49:05

down like an a accordion. The lift scissors

49:08

lyft and they're wheeling it out. So the widow

49:10

is there and the Secret Service is moving

49:13

this thing, and one of the funeral home people,

49:15

Aubrey Reich, he's there, and so there's

49:17

this profane exchange of shouting

49:20

and pushing between members of the Secret

49:22

Service who insist on removing the body

49:24

and taking it to Washington, and this honest County

49:27

corner Earl Rose. He says, no, we're

49:29

going to comply with the law and do an autopsy in

49:31

Texas. And so they were

49:33

bound and determined that there was not going to be

49:35

an autopsy in Texas. And so,

49:38

you know, they brandished their weapons, They pulled

49:40

aside their coats and showed their pistols, and one

49:42

of them even had a submachine gun. And

49:45

so he was actually picked up and slammed against

49:47

the wall. Eventually, and

49:50

one of the doctors and attendants who witnessed

49:52

this said in a recorded interview

49:55

in the eighties, he said, they

49:57

told doctor Rose, if you don't get out

49:59

of the way, we will run you over with the casket.

50:02

So this is a very heavy, four hundred plus

50:04

pounds bronze casket when it was empty with

50:06

a body inside. We're going to run you over with a casket.

50:09

And all of this unseemly behavior is

50:11

occurring in front of the poor widow. It's

50:14

really really macabre and

50:16

disturbing.

50:17

You don't mind if we use your dead husband's body

50:19

as a battering ram to knock

50:21

these people out of the way so we can go come in our

50:24

cover up of your husband's death. But

50:26

what's interesting to me, forget about

50:28

who they are for the time being. That's always

50:31

the quandary. But there's people

50:33

on the ground in Dallas,

50:36

and there's people in Bethesda awaiting

50:38

them, and we're switching coffins,

50:40

and we're switching cars, and we're doing this and

50:42

that, and we're having bodies arrive

50:45

ninety minutes, you know, unaccounted

50:48

for until later on it's

50:50

accounted for, but arriving and then

50:52

doing their work, you know, their cover up work,

50:55

fumes and so forth. Now the other

50:57

aspect I want to talk to you about, which is

50:59

even more we're kind of devastating us. As

51:01

most people know, the most vital

51:04

piece of this whole thing is the Zapruder Film.

51:07

For most Americans, it's a movie taken

51:09

by Abraham Zapruder. I think he's

51:11

a dressmaker. Correct, he's in the clothing business.

51:14

That's right, he's a dressmaker. And he has

51:16

a shop in the dal Text building, which is

51:18

right across the street, right across Houston Street

51:20

from the book depositor.

51:21

And now I want you to take us through Supruder's

51:24

there. He's got a camera in his hand.

51:26

He's filming what happens. It's a horror movie

51:29

because the thing that always never ceases to

51:31

be so ghastly to me is here.

51:33

This man was the president of

51:35

the United States back in the time when I think

51:37

that meant something to most people. And they

51:40

blow the top of his head off, the back of his head

51:42

off, right in front of his wife. But

51:44

I want you to take us through a timeline of Supruders.

51:47

There he's filming the event. Where does

51:49

that film go in a timeline after

51:51

that?

51:52

Okay, the timeline, the

51:54

real timeline is very firmly established

51:57

now. And part of the work was done by the review

51:59

board staff, by me and Jeremy,

52:02

and part of it was done years later by independent

52:04

researchers. But here's what really happened. Zapruter.

52:07

A couple of cops showed up at his office.

52:10

They're in Deely Pleasant and wanted to film,

52:12

and they had shotguns, and his secretary

52:15

wouldn't give it to him, and he wouldn't give it to him,

52:18

and so a secret service

52:20

guy showed up and he says, well, I'll

52:23

stay with you. Let's get it developed. And

52:25

so everybody goes together to the local

52:27

TV station. Zapruter does a brief interview,

52:29

and the reason they went there was he

52:32

mistakenly thought they might develop it for him.

52:34

Well, they didn't have the capability. This is a

52:36

special codochrome two

52:38

daylight film. There's only four code

52:41

act plants that can develop this in the entire country,

52:43

and one of them is in Dallas. But the TV

52:45

station can't do it. They can only do black and white

52:48

newsreel film. So he does a

52:50

little interview there and then

52:52

the people he's with, numerous people, they

52:54

take him over to the Kodeac plant. So the

52:57

original film shot

52:59

in his camera Bell and Howe movie

53:01

camera is developed in the Kodak

53:03

plant in Dallas that afternoon,

53:06

and it's a double eight film, and it's

53:08

a double eight means

53:10

that you've got a piece of film. I'll

53:12

keep it real simple here, sixteen milimeters

53:15

wide. Double eight means

53:17

you got one strip on one side, side

53:19

A, that's eight milimeters wide, one strip on

53:21

the other side that's another eight milimeters

53:24

wide, Side A and side B, and

53:26

they're upside down and backwards from each other.

53:28

So when you shoot your twenty five

53:30

feet of side A, which

53:33

he had already done at home with a home movie,

53:35

you've got to flip the film around in the

53:37

camera. The take up reil

53:39

becomes the new supply reel, and vice versa. And

53:42

so the assassination was on side

53:44

B, it was on the other side of the

53:47

film. And so what they have developed

53:49

is a double eight film that's

53:51

still sixteen milimeters wide, it's got images

53:53

upside down and backwards, and it's not yet slit

53:56

down the middle. So they look at it quickly

53:58

in a sixteen milimeter projector to make sure it's

54:00

good images, very good images, crystal

54:02

clear. So he says, okay, I

54:05

want three copies of this today, and they

54:07

said, oh, if you want copies, we're not going to slit

54:09

this film down the middle. Yet, because normally what

54:11

they do is they slid a film down the middle, and

54:13

then you've got instead of one sixteen millimeter

54:16

wide double eight film that's twenty five feet long,

54:18

you would have two eight millimeter films

54:21

a total of fifty feet long after they splice

54:23

them together. So they said, okay, we're not going

54:25

to slit these yet. We're going to give you three

54:27

rolls of a film that you can use as

54:29

duplicating film. We're going to send you over

54:31

to another lab where you can have this copied

54:35

on what we call a contact printer. They said,

54:37

we don't have a contact printer. We're a developing

54:39

lab. We're Kodak. We just develop movies.

54:42

So you go over to the Jamison lab. We'll

54:44

call them and tell them you're coming. And

54:47

I said, that's what he did, and he

54:49

handed them his camera, original

54:52

film still sixteen milimeters wide, and

54:54

the three rolls of duplicating film, and

54:56

they ran off three identical copies

54:59

for him on a contact printer, and

55:01

then he took those three copies

55:04

and the original back over to Kodak, and

55:06

then Kodak had to also develop the three

55:08

copies. So once they did,

55:10

and once Kodak determined that the three

55:12

copies were pretty good

55:15

contact print copies. They were a little bit

55:17

soft, but they were pretty darn good copies,

55:19

and of course the original was needle sharp. Then

55:21

they slid all four down to eight millimeters in

55:23

width so they could be shown on an eight milimeter

55:25

home projector. So here's what happens.

55:28

Later in the day, he goes downtown

55:30

to see Forest Sorels,

55:33

who's the Secret Service agent that took into the

55:35

Kodak plant in the first place. Well,

55:37

Sorels left and he's now busy

55:39

with the interrogations of this fellow named Oswald.

55:42

And so Sorels says, don't bother me, I'm

55:44

busy. I don't have time for your film. He

55:46

says, why don't you take it? Go downtown to my office,

55:49

and if you want to share a couple of your

55:51

copies, give him to Agent Max Phillips.

55:53

So the recruiter before he goes home Friday night,

55:56

he goes downtown. He gives

55:58

two of his three copies to

56:01

Agent Max Phillips of the Secret

56:03

Service, and he keeps with him

56:05

the camera original and one

56:07

of the copies. So of the two copies he

56:09

gave the Secret Service that night, they flew one to

56:12

Washington, d C. To the head of

56:14

the Secret Service overnight on

56:16

an airplane and then arrived before dawn the

56:18

next day. That's fine, that

56:20

makes sense to me. The other

56:22

copy that the Secret Service had in Dallas,

56:24

they loaned to the FBI. The next day, they loaned

56:27

it to the local FBI. The FBI flew

56:29

at the Washington and it was at FBI headquarters

56:32

starting Sunday, right after midnight early

56:34

am Sunday. So then what Zappruter

56:37

has in his possession the next

56:39

morning, which is what's important. Saturday,

56:42

November twenty third, he has the camera

56:44

original eight millimeter and

56:46

he has one of his eight milimeter copies

56:48

remaining. He meets with Dick Stolly

56:50

of Life magazine, the West Coast editor

56:53

who had flown out to Dallas to do this negotiation.

56:56

Stolly offers him some money

56:59

and Zupruter just smiles

57:01

at him. It wasn't enough, So finally

57:03

Stally says, okay, the maximum

57:05

I'm allowed to offer you is fifty

57:07

thousand. So the first of two contracts

57:10

was cut that day for fifty thousand

57:12

dollars. The Pruter agreed to

57:14

do this. He would only loan the original

57:17

film, loan it for a week to

57:19

time Life, and then all

57:22

they would be able to do make stills

57:25

was make still copies of individual

57:27

frames, still still picture rights,

57:30

not motion picture rights, still

57:32

picture rights, and after a week they

57:34

would return the original to him and

57:36

he could do whatever he wanted with it, then sell it as

57:38

a movie, and he would then give him

57:40

his remaining copy give it

57:42

to them after a week. So that's the deal

57:44

that's cut on Saturday. I'm going to tell you about

57:47

the new deal that was cut on Monday, and then I'll

57:49

tell you why that was necessary. On

57:51

Monday, there's a new contract cut

57:53

by Life magazine, and it's bizarre

57:56

because it's not to their benefit.

57:58

It's toz the pruter's benefit. So

58:00

now the total amount of the sale goes up

58:02

from fifty thousand to one hundred and fifty thousand

58:05

total.

58:05

A lot of money back then, Yeah, that's

58:07

a.

58:07

Lot of money. And what they wanted

58:10

was physical custody of all

58:12

three copies and of the original

58:15

and motion picture rights.

58:16

When they want the rights to the film, they want.

58:18

All the rights to the film, not just still picture all

58:20

the motion picture rights and physical

58:23

custody of the original forever, and of all

58:25

three copies forever, and that's the new deal cut

58:27

on Monday. And of course so Zapruter said,

58:29

yeah, sure. So it's

58:32

what happened in between. That's really

58:34

the fascinating heart of this Sapruder film

58:36

mystery.

58:39

Douglas Horn, This

58:42

is but one of hundreds of episodes

58:45

from Here's the Thing. To hear

58:47

more great conversations from

58:49

experts, artists, and political

58:51

insiders, head to our archives

58:54

at Here's the Thing dot org. When

58:57

we return, Douglas Horn

58:59

share the accounts of eyewitness

59:02

testimony on the ground in Dallas

59:05

and how they dispute what was reportedly

59:07

captured in the Supruter film.

59:21

I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to

59:23

Here's the Thing. Douglas

59:25

Horne spent years collecting

59:27

documents and witness testimony

59:29

involved in the jfk assassination.

59:33

One of the puzzle pieces he worked on was

59:35

what happened to the Supruter film?

59:38

After Life Magazine initially purchased

59:40

the rights to it for one week's time.

59:44

So here's what we know today.

59:47

This story for years based

59:49

on the memoirs of one Life

59:51

Magazine person, Loud and Wainwright based

59:54

on his memoirs written many years later. The

59:57

official story was that, well, the film

1:00:00

which Stolly. You know, he bought

1:00:02

the original Saturday, just to borrow it

1:00:04

for a week. He put it on an airplane

1:00:06

to Chicago on Saturday. He didn't go with it,

1:00:08

but he put it on an airplane to Chicago.

1:00:11

And that's the part that remains unchallenged

1:00:13

today. That's the fact. What happened to it

1:00:15

after it got to Chicago is not what Loud

1:00:18

and Wainwright and the

1:00:20

mainstream or a research community has maintained.

1:00:23

It did not stay in Chicago all weekend,

1:00:25

as has been claimed for years.

1:00:28

Here's what really happened. Two Secret

1:00:31

Service agents or people who said they were Secret

1:00:33

Service, intercepted the film

1:00:35

in Chicago at some point, either

1:00:37

at the airport or at the time Life

1:00:39

Publishing plant. I'm going to assume it's at the time

1:00:42

Life Publishing plant probably. Those

1:00:44

two agents show up with the original Suppruiter

1:00:46

film in Washington, d C. At

1:00:49

ten o'clock PM on Saturday night.

1:00:51

The same day, ten o'clock pm.

1:00:54

They had not seen the film yet, so

1:00:56

they're couriering it. They're bringing it from

1:00:59

wherever they came from. But Obviously

1:01:01

they came from Chicago because that's where it

1:01:03

was sent by Dick Stalley. Who

1:01:05

did they deliver it to. They deliver

1:01:07

it to the CIA's National Photographic

1:01:10

Interpretation Center, which is abbreviated

1:01:12

Inpick. So the job of Enpick

1:01:15

that night was to make briefing boards.

1:01:17

And simply put, briefing boards are stiff

1:01:20

panels with blowups

1:01:22

from individual frames, just still picture blow ups

1:01:24

of individual frames. Paste it onto the briefing

1:01:26

board so you can brief government officials on what

1:01:28

does the film show what happened? So

1:01:31

the Secret Service agents tell

1:01:33

Brigioni what prints they want. He

1:01:35

had to go out and buy an eight milimeter projector in

1:01:37

the dark at night, because you know it's an eight milimeter

1:01:39

film. They didn't have an eight milimeter projector. They

1:01:41

view it several times. They then make

1:01:44

the selections the Secret Service, these are the ones

1:01:46

we want. They leave town with a film

1:01:48

at three am Sunday.

1:01:50

He doesn't know where they're going. We

1:01:53

know now where they went. They went to Kodak

1:01:55

headquarters, to the Research

1:01:57

and Development Lab Worldwide Research

1:01:59

and Development Live.

1:02:00

For Kodak in Rochester, Hawkeye.

1:02:03

In Rochester, YEP. Hawkeye Works

1:02:05

and so how do we know this. We know this

1:02:07

because the film was brought back

1:02:10

to the End Pick in Washington, d C. The

1:02:12

next night, twenty four hours later. It's

1:02:14

brought back there by a different Secret

1:02:16

Service agent who says his name is quote unquote

1:02:19

Bill Smith, obviously a pseudonym,

1:02:21

because we determined there was no Bill Smith working

1:02:23

for Secret Service on the

1:02:25

review board we determined it. He brings

1:02:28

it back to Endpick to a different

1:02:30

work crew. Dino Brugioni and

1:02:32

his high level confederates were not

1:02:34

called in the next night, a different work crew was

1:02:36

called in. Bill Smith tells them, this

1:02:39

film just came from Hawkeye Works

1:02:41

in Rochester, which was the code

1:02:43

name for this the classified

1:02:46

portion of this film

1:02:48

lab the classified portion used

1:02:50

by the CIA. And he

1:02:52

lied. Then he said, well, this was donated

1:02:55

by a patriotic American who didn't want to

1:02:57

make any money, so he donated it to the government,

1:02:59

and the original film was developed at

1:03:01

Rochester at Hawkeye Works, and

1:03:03

we want you guys to make briefing boards of it. So

1:03:07

he told two big whoppers, two

1:03:09

lies. So what you've got going on here

1:03:11

is that I've concluded with

1:03:13

a very high level of assurance that

1:03:16

this film was crudely altered over

1:03:18

about a twelve hour period on Sunday,

1:03:20

November twenty fourth at Hawkeye.

1:03:22

Works to depict what, to depict

1:03:24

what.

1:03:25

Yeah, that's the important thing. Primarily

1:03:27

to blackout with very

1:03:30

crude blackouts, which are supposed to

1:03:32

look like shadows, but they don't. They just look like

1:03:34

blackouts like ink. To black out

1:03:37

the huge exit wound in the right rear of the head

1:03:39

that was seen at Parkland Hospital. And

1:03:41

the reason this had to be done was the

1:03:43

people in charge of this cover up, they already knew

1:03:46

that the photos of the back of JFK's

1:03:48

head, few of the few photos of the

1:03:50

back of his head from the autopsy, were

1:03:52

going to show no damage to the back of the head.

1:03:54

They were going to be doctored, and they have

1:03:56

been. They don't reference.

1:03:58

The film is then to be Doctor two.

1:04:00

So the film has to be Doctor to match

1:04:02

what we're doing with the autopsy photos of the

1:04:04

back of the head. So they had to match.

1:04:06

So the only reason I'm just telling you

1:04:08

right now the end pick let's cut to the

1:04:11

chase. They had the world's best in larger

1:04:13

and they were the place to make the briefing boards

1:04:15

and the only reason to send the film to Hawkeye

1:04:18

Works in the first place is if you're

1:04:20

going to alter the film. And so the

1:04:22

reason you're making a second set of briefing

1:04:24

boards on Sunday night is you're making

1:04:26

briefing boards from a sanitized, altered

1:04:29

film which blacks out the

1:04:31

huge exit wound in the right rear

1:04:33

of the head. And so some

1:04:35

people in Hollywood who are good friends of

1:04:37

mine, Sidney Wilkinson and Tom Whitehead, Sidney

1:04:41

purchased a film from the National Archives, a

1:04:43

copy, a thirty five millimeter copy, a dupe

1:04:45

negative of the so called original

1:04:47

film in the archives. Sidney

1:04:49

Wilkinson and her husband, Her husband

1:04:52

is Tom Whitehead. They're a team and

1:04:54

he's a Hollywood video editor and she's been

1:04:56

involved with him and.

1:04:57

The guys that are in the dock that I saw.

1:04:58

Yes, she buy he was a thirty five millimeters

1:05:01

dupe negative of the so called original film in

1:05:03

two thousand and eight because she's

1:05:05

intrigued by these rumors that the film may

1:05:07

have been altered and she didn't know what to think about all these

1:05:09

arguments in different books. So her husband,

1:05:12

he has the film scan. Six case

1:05:14

scans were state of the art at the time, almost

1:05:16

above state of the art. So when the movie's

1:05:18

Ten Commandments and ben hur were

1:05:20

restored, you know they were four K, so

1:05:23

six K was even a higher level

1:05:25

of resolution than that. At the time.

1:05:28

He used the best scanner you could get, a six K

1:05:30

scanner. Every frame was scanned,

1:05:32

and later he made two K scans, which

1:05:34

are a high definition like you're HDTV,

1:05:37

So he had high resolution scans of the frames,

1:05:39

and he discovers these crude black patches

1:05:41

over the back of the head. The

1:05:43

worst one is framed three seventeen, the most

1:05:45

egregious, but also frames three twenty

1:05:48

one and three twenty three are particularly bad, and

1:05:51

so they clearly show artwork animation

1:05:54

blacking out the back of the head.

1:05:56

And obviously the artist wanted it to look

1:05:58

like a shadow, but shadows on

1:06:01

human hair don't have straight lines like

1:06:03

the state of Ohio.

1:06:04

And it's not consistent with Connolly either.

1:06:07

Right, not consistent at all with Connolly in

1:06:09

frame three to seventeen. So the

1:06:11

evidence is out there. Other researchers

1:06:13

have bought films from the archives, copies of

1:06:15

this so called original film, and they see the

1:06:17

same defects, the same

1:06:20

artifacts in the film. So this

1:06:23

was a rough job. The alteration. I

1:06:25

figured after they got about three hours

1:06:27

to take it to Hawkeye Works, about three hours

1:06:29

to get it back to Washington for more briefing board

1:06:31

Sunday night. In between those

1:06:33

two travel events, they had about twelve

1:06:36

hours to alter the film. And we even

1:06:38

know how they did it now. I mean, there's a textbook.

1:06:40

The first textbook ever published on

1:06:43

special effects techniques was

1:06:45

by Professor Raymond Fielding The Technique

1:06:48

of Special Effects Cinematography in nineteen sixty

1:06:50

five, and he describes the two effects

1:06:52

techniques, the only two techniques available

1:06:56

in nineteen sixty five, which is a traveling

1:06:58

matt which is very complicated involves

1:07:00

many passes through a camera, and aerial

1:07:03

imaging, which is very simple. It involves

1:07:05

one pass through a camera. So it's clear

1:07:07

that an aerial optical printer,

1:07:09

an aerial optical printer, a modified

1:07:12

Oxbury optical printer with an animation

1:07:14

stand attached, was used to alter

1:07:17

this film. And then you just simply

1:07:20

you draw whatever artwork you want on

1:07:22

a clear acetate cell, you

1:07:25

put it on the animation stand and rephotograph

1:07:27

the frame that you've altered in a process

1:07:30

camera, and then you create a new film by rephotographing

1:07:32

the frames. You want a rephotograph, rephotograph

1:07:35

all the frames, and that way you can optically

1:07:37

edit the film and take out things you don't want to

1:07:39

be in the film, like the exe debris traveling

1:07:42

to the left rear in Dailly Plaza. You

1:07:44

don't see that in the film. There

1:07:46

were plenty of people that saw it that day, and

1:07:49

Sappruter's partner Schwartz, saw it

1:07:51

in the film. He watched that film copy

1:07:53

that they retained fifteen times

1:07:56

that weekend and he saw debris traveling

1:07:58

to the well.

1:07:59

They also talk about how the cloud,

1:08:01

the red or pinkish cloud of mist,

1:08:04

the atomized bone, brain

1:08:06

fluid, all this crap blood

1:08:09

that comes shooting out of his skull in

1:08:11

the supprudor that we know doesn't match

1:08:13

what happened because it's all confined to a

1:08:15

certain area. Whereas eyewitnesses

1:08:18

have testified who were there on the site,

1:08:21

not examining films of testify

1:08:23

there was a corona covering

1:08:26

his entire circumference of

1:08:28

his head.

1:08:28

That's right. Especially the Willis family, they've

1:08:31

been interviewed on film. I'm sure you've seen it. They

1:08:33

just testify to the red

1:08:36

corona and the large cloud of debris traveling

1:08:38

up and back. And then the other

1:08:41

person who saw a very different pattern

1:08:43

of debris that we don't see in the film today was

1:08:45

Dino Brigioni, who did the first briefing board

1:08:47

event, and he saw a massive verticalsure,

1:08:51

a vertical head explosion that went three or four

1:08:53

feet into the air, which is not in

1:08:55

the film today.

1:08:57

Let me see this as we were running out of time.

1:09:00

One of the things that was always so disturbing

1:09:03

to me and shocking to

1:09:05

me was this ultimately,

1:09:07

I mean, if your government black

1:09:10

ops people that are doing

1:09:12

this kind of thing, how do you get everybody

1:09:14

to shut up? How do you get hundreds

1:09:17

of people involved in some small

1:09:20

or not so small component of this, What

1:09:23

do you tell them? This has always been the

1:09:25

searing mystery to me.

1:09:27

There's an answer to that. One is to compartmentalize

1:09:30

the different audiences so they don't even talk

1:09:32

to each other. Of course, So that's what happened

1:09:34

with a multiple cast assassination. Yeah,

1:09:36

yeah, yeah, they didn't. There was

1:09:38

a compartmentalized operation, this cast at shell

1:09:41

Game, so they didn't even become aware

1:09:43

of each other until the late seventies,

1:09:46

after the Congress. The Department

1:09:49

of Defense lifted the gag order at

1:09:51

the request of the HSCA, but

1:09:54

the main technique used was intimidation

1:09:56

and fear. So all the Navy personnel

1:09:58

involved in the autopsy had

1:10:01

to sign what we call a letter of silence.

1:10:03

That's what we call They were threats that you will

1:10:05

be court martialed. If you even discuss the events

1:10:08

that you witnessed at the autopsy, you will be court

1:10:10

martialed.

1:10:10

So the other thing I was told is that people introduced

1:10:13

was that if you tell

1:10:15

the truth of what you're experiencing here. They

1:10:17

didn't tell this to everybody, they didn't

1:10:19

have to, just the fear alone

1:10:21

that you're going to be have some kind of consequences,

1:10:24

few legally or otherwise. But the idea

1:10:26

that they told some of the more significant players

1:10:28

that the Russians did this, all

1:10:31

right, and if you say

1:10:33

anything, we need to make sure

1:10:35

that everything is such

1:10:38

that it's a single guy who's alone

1:10:40

nut, because if you say it's a conspiracy, it's more

1:10:42

than one person. It's the Russians and we're gonna have World

1:10:44

War three? Do you want World War III?

1:10:47

Do you want the atomic bomb? Death?

1:10:50

Using the atomic bomb? Reference from

1:10:52

back then. Do you want the atom bomb

1:10:54

death of forty million Americans

1:10:57

in a single day to be on your shoulders,

1:11:00

your mouth shut because the Russians did

1:11:02

this to Kennedy.

1:11:03

That's exactly I

1:11:05

believe firmly I've concluded.

1:11:07

That's exactly what the autopsy pathologist,

1:11:10

Humes and Boswell were told. Is

1:11:12

that we know there was a conspiracy in Dallas.

1:11:14

We know there was a crossfire, and

1:11:17

they told these doctors the Communists

1:11:19

did it. We know they did it. And

1:11:21

so it's your job to remove evidence and

1:11:23

not report any shots from the front when

1:11:25

at the autopsy you're only going to report shots

1:11:27

from behind loan government and so yeah,

1:11:30

and so this is what would have been used

1:11:32

on others later who

1:11:34

maybe expressed discomfiture or

1:11:36

who wanted to speak out, is that no,

1:11:40

this is on patriotic You're you're endangering

1:11:42

the country. We could have forty million deaths. That's

1:11:44

what Lyndon Johnson told people when he got

1:11:46

people to sit on the Warrant Commission who didn't want

1:11:49

to. So all I can all I want to lead

1:11:51

with your audience is the final conclusion today

1:11:54

that I have with great certainty after talking

1:11:56

to a lot of medical experts is that there

1:11:59

was one head shot from behind, but

1:12:02

it was not from the book depository. It was

1:12:04

from down low, almost horizontal, probably

1:12:06

from the Dalte's building. There were two head

1:12:08

shots from the front Alex. Two from

1:12:10

the front. One entered the right temple

1:12:12

just right in front of the ear, in

1:12:15

the hair, right in front of the ear, where

1:12:17

nobody at Parkland saw the entry wound.

1:12:19

And the other shot from the front was very

1:12:21

high in the forehead above the corner of

1:12:23

the right eye, very high in the forehead,

1:12:25

and that would have been hidden by the President's bangs

1:12:27

at Parkland had long hair in the front,

1:12:30

so they didn't see that. So all they saw was

1:12:32

a big exit wound in the back. But

1:12:35

there were two head shots from the front, one

1:12:38

from behind. That means conspiracy

1:12:40

period. And this evidence is embedded

1:12:44

in the Skullx rays. So I've

1:12:46

got a YouTube movie coming out in a month or

1:12:48

two. I've already recorded the thing.

1:12:50

It's in post production now, but explaining

1:12:52

the Skullex rays and how to interpret them,

1:12:54

and all these great geniuses who examined

1:12:57

these for years were obviously not

1:12:59

willing to tell the whole truth. They were hiding

1:13:01

the other half of the story, which is we also

1:13:03

had two shots from the front. The evidence

1:13:06

in the skulls rays of two

1:13:08

entry wounds in the front, one high in the forehead

1:13:11

and one just close to

1:13:13

the right ear, just barely above the right ear,

1:13:15

is as obvious as the news on your face.

1:13:18

And for the Clark panel in nineteen

1:13:20

sixty eight and for the House

1:13:22

Select Committee forensic panel to not identify

1:13:25

these means that it

1:13:27

was they were willfully blind.

1:13:30

And we didn't even talk them. By the way, how the frames

1:13:32

that they took out with the car slowed down. Do

1:13:34

you believe we remove those images as well?

1:13:37

I believe that a very brief

1:13:39

car stop was removed, and

1:13:42

there were too many witnesses to it. And all the

1:13:44

witnesses to it were the people close to

1:13:46

the car. I mean they should know. The

1:13:49

four motorcycle cops to the left

1:13:51

and right rear of the car said the car stopped briefly.

1:13:54

The witnesses to the left and right of the car said

1:13:56

it stopped briefly, and a

1:13:58

lot of other people did. And so I think the

1:14:00

pruter actually filmed the movie at

1:14:03

three times the normal frame rate. He

1:14:05

had a switch he could operate on his camera

1:14:07

called slow motion, which meant it instead of

1:14:09

filming at sixteen frames per second, he

1:14:11

could film at forty eight frames per second and all

1:14:13

he had to do is push down on the switch. And

1:14:16

I think that if he filmed this movie

1:14:19

with three times the normal frames, it would

1:14:21

have been easy to remove a brief car

1:14:23

stop without a jump cut, and

1:14:26

which is what you have in the film. You don't see a

1:14:28

massive jump cut, but you do see the car slowing

1:14:30

a little bit, and they had to. And I

1:14:32

think that's how you can remove EXITD debris frames,

1:14:35

remove the EXITD debris frames which

1:14:37

indicate shots came from the front, and

1:14:40

remove this brief car stop which

1:14:42

probably contained the car stopping and

1:14:44

evidence of different head hits, you know, happening

1:14:46

at a different time. Remove all that without

1:14:49

it showing up as a jump cut, because he really

1:14:51

filmed the event, I think at

1:14:53

forty eight frames per second, not sixteen.

1:14:56

You are a person who's made the

1:14:58

pursuit of the truth of this matter such

1:15:00

an important part of your life, and you've had such great

1:15:02

success with it. Kennedy's assassination

1:15:05

in sixty three was the beginning of the end

1:15:07

for this country. It was my great pleasure

1:15:09

to speak with you. I'm very grateful to hear and thank

1:15:11

you, sir, thank you, thank you very much.

1:15:17

My thanks to Douglas Horn. This

1:15:20

episode was produced by Kathleen Russo,

1:15:23

Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hoban. Our

1:15:25

engineer is Frank Imperial. Our

1:15:27

social media manager is Daniel Gingrich.

1:15:30

Here's the Thing is recorded at

1:15:32

CDM Studios in New York.

1:15:35

I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the Thing is brought

1:15:37

to you by iHeart Radio