0:03

I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening

0:05

to Here's the Thing. Thank

0:10

you. As

0:12

you can see, I'm moving very gingerly

0:15

because I I'm an orthopedic

0:18

disaster here. Literally

0:20

tomorrow morning, I'm going to go to n y U and

0:22

have hip replacement surgery tomorrow

0:25

morning. No, no, no, I'm not saying that for sympathy,

0:27

but I wanted to say that. I wanted

0:30

to say. It occurred to me that if I don't for any

0:32

reason, if I don't survive the surgery,

0:35

if I don't make it out of this surgery, then

0:38

this interview tonight will be my last

0:40

interview for

0:42

Here's the Thing. And I kind of thought about the night, thought, if

0:44

this is gonna be my last interview, who

0:47

do I want it to be with? Who would

0:49

be the last? Is it Michelle Obama? Or

0:51

is it to Taylor Swift? Is

0:55

it? Uh? You know? Who is it in the firmament

0:58

there that I want to interview? And there was only one name

1:00

I could come up with. If I had to do my last interview,

1:03

it would be with our guests, and I please

1:05

welcome author Michael Wolfe.

1:15

So um, I want to begin by saying

1:18

that those are some very

1:20

nice shoes you have on. They

1:23

look like new shoes to me. Have

1:26

you been doing a lot of shopping lately. I've

1:30

always done a lot of shopping. So

1:33

before we get into the obvious subject,

1:37

which you are certainly have talked

1:39

to death, I'm very

1:41

grateful to you being here. But

1:44

I'm always interested in people's origins

1:46

in terms of their career, and I was wondering if you could

1:48

talk first about where you grew

1:50

up. And you grew up in Patterson. I

1:53

was born in Patterson and grew up on

1:55

a on a somewhat

1:57

whiter hill as rising

2:00

out of Patterson, um and

2:03

um um, and

2:06

then came to New York. He

2:09

was in the advertising business. My mother

2:11

was a newspaper reporter, so

2:14

there was some journalistic

2:16

DNA in that household. Oh totally.

2:18

Who did your mother write for Paterson

2:20

Evening News daily newspaper.

2:22

The political bent in the household was what, if

2:24

anything, we were

2:27

Democrats. My father was

2:29

sort of a back room New

2:31

Jersey politico. He was never

2:33

indicted. Though. That's

2:37

a short list. It's uh

2:42

and and uh. When you finished school, you

2:44

went to college at started

2:46

at vaster Llege um and

2:49

then I came and then I got a job at the New York

2:51

Times and moved to New York and went to Columbia

2:54

to the journalism school. No, it's

2:56

an unfinished I get.

2:58

I was a junior when I transferred to Columbia

3:02

History. And you

3:04

were at the New York Times for how long? And

3:07

what was that experience like for you? It was a horrible

3:09

experience. Um, it

3:11

was one of those things. You know, this is the only thing I ever

3:13

wanted to do was was to go

3:15

to the New York Times. And um, so

3:17

I got a job. I was twenty. I

3:19

think it was a copy boy and I

3:22

walked in and I think literally in

3:24

ten minutes, I knew that

3:26

if this was life, I was not going to make it.

3:28

Why it

3:31

just everyone seems so depressed, seemed

3:33

there and and and there was something about

3:35

the New York Times that it's on these copy desks

3:38

was very gray and in an era it was

3:40

filled with smoke. And also everybody

3:42

had a tick a

3:44

literally yea. Um,

3:50

so it explains a lot. Actually I've been

3:54

so that was so I was there for about

3:56

about a year. Um.

3:58

And then basically when there had a job since

4:02

well, did you did you sense early on you were

4:04

what age when you were at the Times? How long we

4:06

got the Times? Twenty? About a year? She were just there

4:08

for a year. And did you sense early on

4:10

that the a that you wanted to be a writer? Did

4:12

you know you wanted to be a writer. Yes,

4:15

I mean there was no sort

4:17

of no question of, no questions, and you

4:19

knew what you wanted to write or you weren't sure fiction

4:22

nonfiction? You wanted to write non fiction. I know I wanted

4:24

to write fiction, but you wanted

4:26

to write fiction. Yes, some people would

4:29

say that you have written fiction. The

4:32

truth is I can't write fiction, so it must

4:34

not be. But but but you

4:36

wanted to write fiction. What happened? No

4:39

one was buying your no no stories.

4:41

No worse than that they bought

4:45

So I wrote it. I wrote a first book. Um.

4:47

Um, when I was twenty five, I wrote I wrote

4:49

a book and it was non fiction, but it felt

4:51

like fiction. I mean I sort of come out

4:53

of what used

4:56

to be called the new journalism and

4:58

um, and it was really right in writing

5:01

using fictional techniques to write about

5:03

real things. Um. But that

5:06

was a moment and say in the in the in which they sort

5:08

of said, okay, you did that. That's good. But now

5:10

you can do what real writers do. You'll

5:12

write a novel. They gave me a big advance

5:15

to do this, and and I

5:17

moved for your first book. This was my second

5:19

book. So my first book was this was

5:22

a new journalism book

5:24

called White Kids, um

5:26

um, which I

5:28

I think it was years. Why were they

5:31

giving out big advances then for you if

5:33

you weren't you weren't an established writer,

5:36

Hall I did. I mean, I wrote this book and

5:38

it was quite success. I mean I got a little little

5:40

notoriety in anyway. Um. And

5:42

then so they gave me an advance to write this novel.

5:45

I thought, great, I'm going to be a novelist. I moved

5:47

to Europe. I moved to Rome. Um.

5:50

I thought, I saw the whole thing, um,

5:53

the whole life in front of me. Um

5:55

and and I sat down at a at

5:58

a typewriter then and um

6:01

um and I began to write the first

6:03

page of this book over and over

6:05

and over and over again.

6:08

I mean, this was bad. This went on for

6:11

six years of um.

6:14

It's like the shining But in Rome, my

6:18

very promising career just seeped

6:21

away every day until there was no career

6:23

left. At some point, I

6:25

would I would mention, I guess you realized

6:28

you didn't want to work for somebody else when

6:30

you decided to write books. By this point, no

6:32

one, no one would hire me, so I was

6:35

it was not really a question yes

6:37

on your own. I had a friend

6:40

from college. This was the eighties

6:42

so, and he had made a lot of money on Wall Street

6:44

and started his own firm. And as

6:46

I'm still trying to write this book, he said

6:48

to me, listen, you've become an embarrassment to

6:50

everyone who has ever known you. Come downtown.

6:53

I'll give you an office and we'll

6:55

do deals. I

6:57

had never even heard. I didn't even know there was

7:00

such a thing. Um,

7:02

but I was so grateful. I just immediately

7:04

put it down and bought a suit, went

7:07

downtown, and suddenly we were sort of

7:09

doing deals. This was give us

7:11

an example of one deal you did. I'm

7:16

intrigued. What was the deal that was

7:18

done? Well, we started to invest

7:21

in He said, you know about media, and

7:23

well, let's we'll we'll put money into media

7:25

companies. UM. Now, I had no idea

7:28

anything about media, and never even you know,

7:30

other than the fact that I had written a book. UM

7:33

worked at a newspaper. That's what I knew

7:35

about the media. But it was like, whatever interests

7:37

you will do it. I looked around

7:39

and I said the National Lampoon magazine.

7:43

Um, it had peaked and then it had

7:45

gone down. And I thought, but it was a public company.

7:48

We could potentially take over this thing,

7:51

and UM, you know, I could buy myself

7:53

a job. Did

7:55

he listen to you, Yes, yes, we brought

7:58

the magazine. Yeah, we we UM

8:00

invested in this, made you know, and then

8:03

somebody else came along. This was the eighties,

8:05

So you invest in this, and somebody else

8:07

came along, UM and invested

8:09

more, bought it, UM, and we made

8:11

a ton of money. He said, to see, it's easy. We're

8:15

doing deals and

8:19

and then so you're a novelist

8:22

and you're in Rome, and then you come back and you're doing deals

8:24

with this gentleman. And after that is

8:26

that when you get into the magazine business. And when

8:28

I got into the internet business. So

8:31

that it was UM there

8:33

was a series of steps here

8:35

and and UM, so I

8:39

I found myself running this UM

8:42

this a small publishing company

8:44

which started to publish books

8:47

about the Internet. And I get this, we're

8:49

publishing books about the Internet,

8:52

UM and

8:55

UM and they were they were like they

8:58

they flew off the shelf. This was like, I'm

9:00

one of those those moments in which

9:02

um um, in which people had

9:05

heard about the internet, but they had no idea where

9:07

the internet was. Um

9:09

UM. So we had this office and we put

9:11

them sort of put a phone number in the

9:13

book and then people would call up and they would say, is

9:15

this the internet? Um?

9:22

And so this this went on, and

9:24

then this went on for

9:26

for um. This kind of rolled into

9:29

you know, somebody then came along and gave me

9:31

an enormous amount of money um

9:34

um to actually be

9:37

in the be in the technology

9:39

business, something I knew absolutely

9:41

nothing about. Um.

9:43

And this seems to be a pattern with you that there

9:47

seems to be a pattern with you that fools

9:49

just come spilling into your life and

9:52

throw themselves in your arms, whether

9:54

it's with their personal uh,

9:57

insights and confessions and what have you, or

10:00

bags of money. They just give you bags of money

10:02

and and actually and then I write

10:04

a book about them. So so I

10:06

wrote a book called burn Rate. This was in

10:08

you know, one of the sort of first books about

10:11

about the about the internet and um and

10:14

it was a sort of act of very

10:18

conscious revenge against all

10:20

of the people who had given any

10:22

money. And then I had lost their money and they had

10:24

yelled at me. So is

10:27

that how you revenge? I

10:30

thought, yes, I thought, what can I do? I have to get

10:33

even with these people? What can I do? I can

10:35

write? But they made you feel bad. They

10:37

yes, it was more um

10:40

in those moments when you're

10:43

when you're when you take you you have

10:45

this money, you've taken money, and

10:48

and against a

10:50

against what nobody knows why why

10:53

you've gotten this money, but everybody

10:55

is hoping that it will it will.

10:58

You know you're gonna that this is

11:00

gonna work. Um, And

11:02

then you reach a point

11:04

where you sort of sort of

11:06

clear that it's not gonna work. And so

11:08

I had this big office in New

11:11

York, hundreds of people. You

11:13

couldn't stop the people from being hired.

11:16

You would peek out your door and you would see somebody

11:18

bringing in new desks, and people

11:20

would follow. The investor

11:23

began to get worried, and he kind of

11:25

moved in or had his people move into

11:28

this office. Then he was there, and you

11:30

would come in in the morning

11:32

and everybody would try to be civil to

11:34

each other. Um. And

11:37

that would last, you know, that would last

11:39

about twenty minutes. And then you then you could

11:41

see the faces distort and then somebody

11:43

would say blah blah, and then and then that would immediately

11:46

become become fuck you, and

11:48

then it would become no fuck you. Um

11:51

and you would do this thing and it was just this anger

11:54

built until, of course then you ran out

11:56

of money. At least they let it out, unlike the times

11:59

where they kept it into They had these ticks all the time

12:01

come holding it in. You know, they wouldn't. They

12:03

wanted to say funk you to each other probably every

12:05

twenty minutes too, but they can't

12:08

do that at the time, so they you know. But

12:10

then I was I was, I

12:12

was thrown out of this this company

12:15

and um um. There

12:18

there was actually one point in this because this was

12:20

a remarkable time that

12:23

I had gone out. We were going to do a deal, um

12:28

and we had flown out to too,

12:31

to the West coast to buy the to

12:33

buy this other company, or they are going to buy

12:36

us, or I can't even remember, but I

12:38

do know that all coming

12:40

back the entire first

12:42

class, I was paying for every seat in first

12:45

class, and it was filled with I

12:47

wasn't paying, but the money that somehow

12:49

was flowing through me um

12:52

um. It was filled with my bankers

12:55

and lawyers, and my lead bankers

12:57

were coming back on the red eye. UM

13:00

leaned over and said, you you know you're

13:02

um um,

13:05

You're worth You're worth a hundred million dollars.

13:08

Um and um

13:11

um. And he had we had gone to college together,

13:13

and he said, I want you to buy a UM

13:16

fund building at the at the school.

13:19

Um and uh. And then we

13:21

talked about what the what the name

13:23

of the building was going to be the

13:26

Wolf Center for this and and the doing

13:28

deals and

13:32

I got I got home and

13:34

um um and

13:36

then for um forever

13:40

after My children now

13:42

will remember Remember Remember

13:44

you were standing there when we were worth a hundred

13:46

million dollars. Remember how

13:48

you acted? Remember this? And then a

13:51

brief yes that lasted about

13:53

two weeks. Now

13:56

to say that, because eventually you when

13:58

you do the New York magazine meeting a column,

14:01

I want to get to you know, your your

14:04

terminology for that. But as you're arriving

14:06

at the place, the conversation

14:11

about the Wolf Center, your moment

14:13

in the sun where you're worth a hundred million dollars

14:15

is around what year would you say, uh,

14:19

nineteen uh

14:22

nineties seven? That way, right

14:24

around when you started. Soon after you got to work

14:26

with New York correct. Yeah, so I got it. How does

14:28

that happen? Well, I was thrown out of this company

14:31

and then I wrote this book. I didn't know what

14:32

to what. And then it was so I had not been

14:35

writing for a certain rate the

14:37

past ten years. I had thought, I can't

14:39

do this anymore. Gone not a

14:41

possibility, um, that I can

14:43

be a writer. But I was thrown out of this company,

14:46

and um, I was what

14:48

am I gonna do? But I thought revenge? Um

14:52

um. And you

14:54

know how revenge is best served in

14:56

a book, it turns out, and

14:59

I wrote this. I wrote this book. I wrote it very

15:01

quickly and um, and it was

15:03

incredibly satisfying and it worked,

15:05

and I thought, hey, I'm pretty good at this, um

15:09

and um. And then not

15:11

long after the book came out in New York magazine

15:13

called me up and said, you want to write a

15:15

column about the media? Um? And

15:18

again I was like media, What do I know about

15:20

media? But but I guess in terms of it, you as

15:22

a writer, the person who started out

15:24

wanting to write uh fiction

15:26

and so forth, And when

15:29

you arrived on the doorstep of the

15:31

New York magazine to write the media column, who would

15:33

you become by them? Like? What was your I don't

15:35

want to say agenda, but what was your appetite?

15:38

Then? What did you want to write about? What?

15:40

I just wanted to You wanted revenge, as

15:43

you had kind of a scorched earth mentality

15:45

tour anyone you didn't

15:48

care for. I found that I had a distinct

15:50

ability to write about

15:52

people's weaknesses. I

15:55

think that's probably it would

15:57

you what would you call? I found it incredibly interesting?

15:59

Oh there is you know that person

16:02

is flawed in the following way? Powerful

16:04

people? Yeah, powerful

16:06

people or or totally ordinary

16:08

people. Was it more satisfying for you to powerful

16:11

as the hatchet job of the common man?

16:14

I could do that too, Um, But which

16:16

was more satisfied? Well? Um, it

16:18

didn't make any difference to whoever

16:21

was whatever, the mighty and the lowly.

16:23

You're like, boom boom, you didn't

16:25

care. Yes, you're just giving them the curb,

16:29

you know. I think, I mean ultimately was

16:31

somewhat more commercial to to do this

16:33

for a powerful people. Now when

16:36

you so, what was would you say?

16:38

I don't want to put any words anybody's map. What

16:40

term would you use? I was going to say, by the way,

16:43

if Trump wanted to really

16:45

increase his chances for this

16:48

water, you would I have is probably poisoned right now.

16:50

So but

16:52

here's looking at you. Um

16:55

the uh what would you say? Was the gim? Is it a

16:57

gossip column? You're writing a gossip column for you

17:01

know? Um? Would you know?

17:04

I mean, I mean, I think a gossip column

17:06

is one thing. This was a what is a gossip

17:08

column? Um?

17:12

What's the difference what you wrote for the New York and what

17:14

Richard Johnson does for paid six? What's the difference?

17:18

I'm mine are literate and his are

17:20

illiterate. I

17:22

can't argue with you there. I

17:25

mean that's what I was interested. I was actually really

17:28

interested in just writing. Just

17:30

give me. I'm not interested. I was not

17:32

even My subjects

17:35

were were secondary to the

17:37

to the fact that I could I could

17:39

hang a story on these subjects I could.

17:42

I'm I was interested in human

17:44

nature, in success, failure,

17:47

drama. Yeah. Um,

17:50

And did you see you other than you're talking about

17:52

the revenge factor in the burn rate experience?

17:54

You come into this and suddenly you mean for people

17:56

who don't know the media or pieces

17:59

that he wrote for the New York magazine were very

18:01

important. I mean it was like people were just writhing

18:04

and and convulsing and you

18:06

know, breaking into a cold sweat and vomiting

18:08

in their office bathroom for fear

18:11

of being written about by you. And am I getting

18:13

that wrong? You pressed a lot of

18:15

buttons in this town for a while. How many years did you do the

18:17

piece? Six years?

18:19

And then I went to Vanity Fair and carried

18:23

on with something similar. And how

18:25

long was it a Vanity Fair? Four

18:28

or five years? I think it's

18:31

over a decade. It's a decade if you covery this

18:33

beat, if you will. And I'm

18:35

wondering you go in that one end of

18:37

that and uh, I mean,

18:39

I'm not gonna say it's a gossip column, but other people

18:41

will certainly. Have you come in one end of

18:43

that and you came out the other end, how

18:46

did that change you? I mean other than probably

18:48

you had somebody make sure nobody

18:50

was gonna punch you in the face when you walked out of walked

18:53

into the Four Seasons restaurant. Did anybody

18:55

ever try to get you in any way

18:58

threaten you sault

19:00

show. But they but they intended to move tables

19:03

and restaurants. Literally you

19:05

had your table table five at Michael's

19:07

and so forth. And did you feel

19:09

that people were uh concerned

19:12

about you? I

19:14

I felt that there are people who intensely

19:17

disliked me. You didn't

19:19

care. No, you thought the benefits

19:21

of writing the calm outweigh the

19:25

I mean, I can't tell the pleasures of writing

19:27

this column were. Um.

19:30

I mean, I've never been I mean, it

19:32

is the happiest job I can possibly

19:35

in a fine Did

19:37

you ever write any I forgot I totally

19:40

blank out. I mean, I have a good memory. Did you ever have

19:42

write anything really shitty about me? Do you remember?

19:45

It's? Okay? Go ahead? Well now that's

19:47

the other other other thing is that I

19:49

can never remember who I wrote this stuff about.

19:52

You are going to It's like an edge

19:54

of sketch and you just shake it when you're done. Right, God,

19:56

your memory, You're like, okay, God. You

19:58

would meet Today's Wednesday. You would meet

20:00

people at at at parties

20:02

and um, and you would saying, oh god, him,

20:04

you're really glad to meet you, really admired you, and

20:07

they would look at you like me like I'm

20:09

a crazy person, because it turned

20:11

out it was, and I had written then some horrible

20:13

thing about them, which I had literally no

20:15

memory. I love that. There'll be a great scene

20:17

in a movie where you're there and you're this powerful columnist

20:20

and you need an assistant behind you going. You

20:22

called him a douche last month,

20:25

he said he was a ginormous douche,

20:28

and you're like, did I, Oh god, him,

20:30

I don't remember that at all. No. Now, now

20:33

I get you know, when people have been sort of

20:35

cold to me and this, I go and I search

20:37

it Michael Wolfe, the following person, and

20:40

and then I you often find ever written

20:42

ah yes, and

20:47

then when you come out of that, I

20:49

got um a kind

20:51

of thrown out of New York Magazine

20:53

because I tried to buy it. Um

20:57

doing deals again. Yeah, so

21:00

New York Magazine, it's it's it's owners

21:03

put it up for sale, and I thought, why not?

21:05

Um um so I

21:08

um, you know, I I pulled together

21:11

a bunch of more billionaires.

21:14

Yeah, this

21:17

New York part. I

21:20

mean, these are these guys that was like, oh my

21:22

god, um um and

21:25

um don't you love New York? I pulled together

21:27

a bunch of billionaires, so

21:29

you just had to call them up another

21:31

toy for them to play um and

21:34

um in matter of fact. And they were

21:36

so so um

21:39

um, kind of kind

21:42

of enthralled with knowing each other

21:44

that they missed the fact that another billionaire,

21:47

Um Wasserstein, came along and

21:49

and bought it out from under us. So

21:52

I had to leave. Then it turned out it was

21:54

like oh oh oh

21:58

um, So I left and then went

22:00

to Vanity Fair. What was the difference between the two other

22:02

than the weekly? That that was

22:04

a fundamental difference.

22:07

Yeah, yeah, and and you were just you know, so Vanity

22:09

Fair you essentially had to write two months in advance,

22:12

so it was very hard to be that. I

22:14

mean, Vanity Fair was was um.

22:18

Did you enjoy the difference? I preferred

22:20

the weekly? Yeah?

22:23

What was the piece that you were particularly proud of for Vanity

22:25

Fair? Profile you did that you were pleased with? Name?

22:28

You know, name one that you enjoyed writing, you

22:31

know, you know, because it candle would be about two months

22:33

of disinventing your spleed right and began to be

22:35

revenge. And did

22:38

you write one about somebody you admired and liked?

22:40

Well, well, here, you know, I had written.

22:44

I had written many pieces

22:47

about the head of Disney, Michael

22:50

Eisener. Um. This was a

22:52

man who really no one liked ever,

22:55

apparently in his entire life. UM.

22:58

And I had written these these pieces and then

23:00

and then he UM. He

23:03

got to a particularly perilous

23:06

point in his um, in

23:08

his tenure as the CEO of of Disney,

23:11

and he was on the verge of being thrown out. And Barry

23:13

Diller called me up and said, I would

23:16

like you to go and see

23:18

um, see Michael Eisner

23:21

and and do a piece about him.

23:23

Everyone is now writing terrible

23:25

things, so I know that you'll have to write

23:27

the opposite of that. UM.

23:30

And I thought, I wonder if that's that's

23:32

true. So anyway, so I went to see Michael Eisner,

23:35

which was embarrassing because I had written these these

23:37

things. UM, I thought

23:39

this guy is great, so

23:41

I wrote it. I wrote a very you pretend

23:44

that he was great. Because Barry Dealer asked you too,

23:46

I found you found the greatness

23:48

in this. This went in and I thought, it is true.

23:51

Everyone is saying you're terrible, So therefore

23:54

I have to look at this in another way. And

23:56

it turns out when I look at it through that

23:58

lens. Oh my god, I love this guy. Did

24:03

that launch a del uge of positive

24:05

pieces on you. Did you have a complete change of heart?

24:08

No, are you like Ebenezer Scrooge? After

24:11

the visitations and you're like, God, I love

24:13

this guy, that

24:16

guy and that guy.

24:20

It was a one time experience. My

24:30

conversation continues after

24:32

the break out

24:45

of the New York for many years, and I've been posting

24:48

events and cutting ribbons amazing

24:50

money for charities and the

24:52

auctioneer for this and I've been, you

24:54

know, meandering around my quadrant

24:57

of New York society, if you will, most

25:00

to the arts related. And as I've mentioned

25:02

that, people you know Trump is someone who was

25:05

as an absentee. He's a drive by

25:07

figure in New York society. He

25:09

had come tuxedo on the

25:11

wife, who's lovely, by the way, is in the gown, it's

25:13

red carpet, it's photo photo photo. But

25:15

he's never a tablemate. You're never

25:17

sitting down and shooting the fat with Trump

25:20

and getting to know him or learn about him.

25:22

He never goes to the event. He's in photo

25:24

up gone. It's a drive by

25:27

reality. So when people said to me, did you have

25:29

a meet him. I said, I met him, but I never got to know him.

25:31

What was your contact with him from

25:34

the New York Magazine days VF days?

25:36

What was that like? He used to call me

25:39

up at New York Magazine. Um, and

25:42

I have no idea why. I was the media columnist,

25:44

and he was as interested

25:46

in the media as I was, as

25:48

anyone was. So I got the calls.

25:51

Now, the calls were not really about the media. They were

25:53

about either something that had been

25:55

said about him in the magazine

25:57

or more more likely, something

26:00

that had not been said. But he wanted says,

26:02

yes, why wasn't he in this? And why wasn't Then

26:04

he would he would rail and

26:06

and and and vamp and

26:09

did he call and pretend to be his own publicist ever?

26:11

Where you? No, No, he was very you

26:14

know that story, right? Yeah he

26:16

was. He was straightforward, um

26:19

and um and and we

26:21

we were sort of friends. I mean, why there's no reason

26:23

not to be not to be friendly?

26:25

Um. Because he would also heap enormous

26:28

amount of flattery on on

26:30

on you you're the best. He's a backslapper,

26:32

and he cajoles people, and he and he

26:35

says everything he needs to kind of enlist people

26:37

in his cause he's very warm. Yeah, he actually

26:39

says much more than he needs to say.

26:43

He just piles it shovels shovel

26:46

right. I mentioned this to you backstage.

26:48

I'm not sand backing here. I said, the

26:50

book seems in not in in terms

26:53

of your writing and the thinking. But like when I

26:55

first saw the book and it came to me, I was stunned

26:57

because I said, this looks like a book that would be in a

26:59

prop in a movie. It

27:03

looks like something the prop department ran off really

27:05

quickly. Like in the movie

27:07

a guy named Michael Wolfe has written a book about

27:09

Trump called Fire. It just looks like a really cheap

27:12

Yeah, I told you her, Nry Holt. Then

27:15

they whipped this thing off. They had

27:17

this book. They knew you were a hot property to do this

27:19

thing was just smoking. And what happened and they said,

27:21

who cares what the cover is, get it out. It

27:23

used to be on the first

27:25

the first printing. It was actually even embossed

27:28

um. And then they decided I was screw

27:30

that. Let's just get him out there. I mean,

27:32

I have said people will say to me, I don't want to be

27:35

overly self referential here. But when

27:37

I do this trump stick on TV, people

27:39

say to me, what do you do? And literally the

27:42

three beats of what I do are embodied

27:45

in this photograph. I

27:47

tell people left, eyebrow up,

27:49

right, eyebrow down, and stick your mouth out,

27:51

that you're trying to suck the windshield out of a car.

27:55

It's just And

27:58

I said, that's it. There's the photo that it

28:01

this is it? This picture? I

28:05

swear that's me actually. So

28:09

so you know him in the way that you know a

28:12

lot of the powerful and the and

28:14

the movers and shakers of two

28:16

one to life. And when

28:19

his when

28:21

his political career, uh

28:23

starts to take off, does

28:26

your relationship with him change?

28:29

I mean, I mean I didn't really have that kind

28:31

of relationship with him. It was just passing

28:34

if he saw me in a crowd. You

28:36

know. It's a guy you know, you know he looks

28:39

when whenever he's out in at

28:42

night or at a party. Um, it's it's

28:44

always he's looking for someone he

28:46

knows, I mean, he has to connect with,

28:49

and that's what it is. He's looking for recognition, um.

28:52

And he's looking for other other people

28:55

who he thinks are worthy of him.

28:57

So I'm I would be like a like

28:59

the in between lean person that

29:01

he would get onto until he saw somebody

29:03

else and then it was UM. And

29:06

that's so that was that

29:08

was completely it. So nothing, no,

29:10

no hostility in this relationship

29:12

at all. And when so in two

29:14

thousand in June two

29:16

thousand and sixteen, I

29:19

did a piece, you know, so he had essentially

29:22

vanquished all of the other Republicans. He

29:24

was going to be the nominee. I

29:26

mean, he was not going to be president

29:29

in any logic that existed anywhere,

29:32

but he was going to be the nominee. And

29:34

I went out to do a UM

29:37

to do an interview with him for the Hollywood

29:39

Reporter. UM.

29:41

I went out because I went out to l a he

29:44

was doing the UM

29:46

I think he was doing the Fallon

29:49

show UM,

29:52

and so I was supposed to meet him there in the

29:54

green room. And then it was like, so

29:56

I come in and it and it was

29:58

a perfect Trump moment of of of

30:01

the kind of flattery that actually

30:04

is kind of really works. I mean

30:06

I walked into the door and he's like,

30:09

oh my god, Michael

30:11

Wolfe, UM, they

30:13

really send the big guns. UM.

30:16

And then one of his aids actually

30:19

Hope Picks comes in and says, you, Mr Trump,

30:21

you have you have forty five minutes, and

30:23

he goes, forty five minutes. You don't

30:25

give Michael will forty five minutes. UM.

30:29

And then he says UM.

30:32

And he says, Okay, I gotta do the show. Come

30:34

over to my house in

30:37

Beverly Hills afterwards and we'll sit around.

30:40

UM. And at first I thought, my god, he is a

30:42

house in Beverly Hill. So it turns out, Um,

30:44

he has a house in Beverly Hills. UM,

30:47

right on the corner of Sunset and Rodeo, this

30:49

huge place. I meet him there and

30:51

he, you know, takes me to the refrigerator

30:54

and it's filled with pints of

30:56

Hogandah's ice cream. It's all the whole

30:59

thing. He takes out too and throws me

31:01

one, and he takes on one and

31:05

there we sit on the couch with the with

31:09

the ice cream and and it doesn't and it's did

31:11

you like ice cream or did you

31:13

know lose the sacrifice you were making

31:16

for your career? Um?

31:18

And I sort of put it there. And then he goes

31:21

UM to Jared Kushner, and Jared Kushner

31:24

comes over and has to pick up the ice

31:26

and my ice cream.

31:28

Yeah, it's

31:32

all becoming clear to me now now.

31:38

But what I want to ask you is, is that is

31:40

that you know, there's been abundant criticisms of Trump

31:43

in terms of his demeanor

31:45

and his behavior and his he's an

31:47

emotional mass, he's in over his head. You

31:49

know, we've heard a lot of that for a while. But I had

31:51

not heard the assertion that Trump

31:54

was betting against himself and

31:57

thought he would lose the election but

31:59

nonetheless win if by

32:01

losing the election he would ultimately gain some

32:04

another oxygen tank for his media career.

32:07

When did that first come to your knowledge?

32:10

Well, it was you know, so I went into the White House

32:12

shortly after January,

32:16

and yeah, and I was

32:18

just sort of began a

32:20

series of conversations to

32:23

to no real point, um

32:25

with with the people around Trump, I mean,

32:27

with with his senior staff. And

32:31

I was kind of under the protections

32:34

I suppose of Steve Bannon,

32:36

um um. And

32:39

did Bannon arranged and broker your admission into

32:42

the basically I mean everyone Kelly

32:44

and Conway, I mean everyone in Trump himself.

32:46

You know, I had asked during the transition, I

32:49

had approached I went to Trump and I

32:51

said, I'd like to come in as an

32:53

observer. And he thought

32:56

I was asking for a job. He

32:58

had no idea what the jobs were in the in

33:00

the White House, and I

33:03

guess deputy assistant observer

33:05

was a was a potential job.

33:09

Um. And I said, no, I want

33:11

to write a book, Michael, you might number one observer,

33:15

top observer anyway.

33:21

And I said, no, no, I want to I want to write a

33:23

book. And you could just see him deflated.

33:25

The idea of a book was so boring

33:28

to him, um um.

33:31

But he said, yeah, yeah, okay, whatever, um

33:34

um. And I went back to Steve Bannon

33:36

and I said, and I said, he says, um,

33:39

this is what he said, whatever, And he says whatever

33:41

is good. And

33:43

so that sort of became the fuel on

33:46

or the basis on which that I was.

33:49

I I became sort of part

33:51

of this group in the White House,

33:53

and they would talk to me, you

33:56

know, you know in ways that that began

33:58

to change over over the

34:00

over the course of when I was there. First that was

34:02

kind of raw raw um,

34:05

and then it was ra rab

34:08

but you know, with with their with their eyes

34:10

eyebrows going up, and then it was raw

34:12

rab with a gun to their head. Um.

34:15

You mentioned in the book that a turning point is

34:17

when he talks about Obama wire tapping

34:19

them, and that that was a big turning point for

34:22

the morale inside the West Wing.

34:24

And then they began to and then actually these

34:26

people really began to talk

34:29

in you know, try to understand how

34:31

it was that they got here. And

34:33

then the whole anomally of this,

34:36

of this situation, including the fact

34:38

that they weren't supposed to be there, that

34:41

all of this was that they all

34:43

would have been better off in some way

34:46

not winning, and they all had kind of

34:49

planned not to win. And in

34:51

fact, everything that's going on now, the whole Russian

34:53

investigation, the money laundering, all

34:55

of this is really really

34:59

the f foundation here is that

35:02

you know, and I compared it to the producers that

35:04

you know, they go in and you

35:07

know, and and the the act

35:10

of winning, like the act of a hit

35:12

show, means that they're comes in a disaster

35:14

exposed. You know, they're crux um.

35:18

And that's the sense someone without obviously

35:20

violating your your confidences and everything of your

35:22

sources or whatever, but someone actually

35:24

said that to you, that that was it more

35:26

than one person, more than one piety people.

35:29

Yes, I mean I think there's there

35:31

was literally nobody who

35:33

expected this to happen. I

35:35

mean, and I mean they felt the same way. I mean, they read

35:38

the New York Times like everybody else. It's like, this

35:40

is not going to happen. Um,

35:43

um. And

35:46

you know, at least of all, you

35:48

know it was he was the one who

35:51

who I mean, he was the one most of

35:53

all who was surprised by this outcome.

35:56

But Bannon, from what I read in your book, he

35:58

believed he saw that

36:00

late shifting wind the

36:03

night of even even day,

36:05

in days in advance, what's the call me emails

36:08

things, puts the big bullet in her and blow

36:10

us a big hole rather a torpedo in her side.

36:13

Bannon begins to see that there, maybe, just

36:15

maybe there's a slim chance.

36:18

I went to Bannon took over the campaign

36:20

on August fifteen, UM,

36:23

two thousand and sixteen. And Um.

36:26

I went up a week

36:28

later to see him in

36:31

Trump Tower, UM. And we

36:33

sat down and he said he's gonna win. Um,

36:35

We're going to do this. The path to victory

36:38

is Florida, Ohio,

36:41

Michigan, Pennsylvania. Now,

36:43

I mean I've spent I've been around politicians

36:45

before and they always say this kind

36:47

of stuff UM, and I and I thought,

36:50

yeah, yeah, sure, and I didn't even write this um.

36:53

But it turned out obviously to be

36:55

absolutely true. And what do you credit

36:58

Bannon, who we've obviously been uh

37:01

compelled to study his past

37:04

and his CV and everything in Hollywood

37:06

and Goldman Sacks

37:08

and his Navy career and stuff. Then he's got

37:10

no political experience prior to this, what

37:13

do you attribute him his political acumen?

37:15

Because when you think about it, he was right. I mean,

37:17

he he he really saw if

37:19

they were going to have a shot, they had to kind

37:21

of split the arrow here in those four

37:23

states, and they did. In your

37:26

time speaking with him, what impressions

37:28

did you get about him? Well, at first, I

37:30

mean would share them

37:32

with us, all positive impressions. I mean,

37:35

I mean, Bannon is a is a UM

37:38

is smart, insightful

37:40

UM. And his conversation

37:43

as you, I mean, when he starts, you really

37:45

don't want him to stop, and he doesn't

37:47

stop, so it's um um. Yeah.

37:52

But he had an insight, and the

37:55

insight was about white

37:57

working class people lan

38:01

um jipped and screwed and

38:03

and and and everything that we've sort of come

38:05

to understand was

38:08

under this underground anger.

38:12

Um, and Bannon was on top

38:14

of it. Yeah. So Bannon

38:16

is if I get this correctly, he's

38:19

the one person who isn't surprised. May maybe he's

38:21

mild surprised or uh,

38:23

intoxicated, whatever you want to say, that they won.

38:25

But but he really was a believer. He believed there

38:28

was a chance. He believed this

38:30

movement could happen and

38:32

it could elect the president he was

38:35

At the same time, Um, I

38:38

I think it was astounding to him

38:40

that the president that that was going to be

38:42

elected was Donald Trump. Does Bannon

38:45

come and he's ready to

38:47

govern? Because I mean, there are

38:49

some really really troublesome

38:51

and malignant policies

38:54

that are being carried forth by this administration.

38:56

Who's who's in charge of that? Who's

38:58

because Trump's not a policy is bat

39:01

was banned in charge? Well began

39:03

it was no one was in charge. I mean, I mean

39:05

and and I mean the

39:07

the the singular issue

39:10

here is that is that you

39:12

know, you brought into this into this White

39:14

House people who had no

39:17

no connection to to each

39:19

other and establishally Washington. Actually

39:21

it was even more they wanted to kill each other literally

39:24

within within weeks. So you had

39:27

you had Kushner and and Ivanka,

39:29

who were New York Democrats. Um,

39:31

you had bannoned this all

39:34

right nationalist populist thing. And

39:36

you had Ron's previous who was a

39:39

traditional a traditional

39:41

Republican, and they none of these things

39:43

could ever come together. Um.

39:45

They were all all inherently

39:48

opposed to each other. And

39:51

it soon got to the point where literally,

39:53

I think if they could have, if one

39:55

could have assassinated

39:58

the other a hundred years

40:00

before, in in in European

40:03

courts, they would have assassinated each

40:05

other. Um

40:08

and so and so you you had

40:10

a white House, certainly at least until

40:12

until John Kelly comes in in August,

40:15

where literally nothing could

40:17

happen because one would block

40:20

the other for whatever

40:22

they were trying. And they and they did eventually they

40:24

did not pass any major legislation until

40:26

the tax bill. So is it assumed

40:29

then that McConnell in

40:31

the one House, and and and and Ryan

40:34

and the other they seize an opportunity

40:36

and they're the ones doing making the policy. Was you

40:40

know the McConnell said, and I quote him as

40:42

as as saying, he'll he'll sign anything

40:44

we put in front of him, which I think is fundamentally

40:47

true. He doesn't really care what

40:50

it is. He just wants a win.

40:53

And he repeats this over John,

40:55

I need to win. I want to win. Why can't you bring

40:58

me a win? Does didn't

41:00

lose his position. There's Bannon gone

41:02

because because eventually he wants

41:04

to go, because he realized that Trump is an idiot

41:06

as well. Totally, yeah, he does. He doesn't. He

41:08

doesn't want to stay there and watch the thing crash into the complete

41:11

and he thought, you know, and it's and he thought he

41:13

could change things. I think he always knew Trump was

41:16

an idiot, but he thought he was his

41:18

idiot um. But

41:20

then it became clear that Trump was also

41:23

Jared and Avanca's idiot and and

41:25

many other people's idiots, so that

41:27

nothing could really happen

41:29

here and then and and and there's

41:32

an idiot, and then there's really

41:34

an idiot, and so and I think that's

41:36

what Bannon, you know, and I sort of saw

41:38

this, this transformation of

41:41

of Okay, we can we can work with this guy

41:43

to this guy is really the ben

41:45

and am I am? I writing assuming that Bannon

41:48

felt he really needed to be in charge.

41:50

He needed Trump to to sit down with him and

41:52

let him guide him and focus him and do with

41:55

And Trump was gonna say the answer this

41:57

is a line somebody applied to a friend of mine once said

42:00

what's Bob gonna do? And the answer

42:02

was, who's the last person to speak to him?

42:04

You know, like everybody that walked in the room was like, sure, you

42:07

got to wrap it up whatever you want. And then apparently

42:09

Trump has the same disease. Correct, whoever

42:11

walks in the room, he just says yes to whatever they want.

42:14

Yeah, and and who and the last person

42:16

he he? I mean, Trump is not a bright guy.

42:19

That shouldn't be released the tax returns.

42:21

It should be released the transcripts. Um.

42:25

It's one of the things that that drives

42:27

Trump crazy, the idea that

42:29

somebody might see his college transcripts.

42:32

Oh, where

42:36

is that Julian Assange when you need him?

42:40

Someone called the Bolivian embassy?

42:43

Or wheb the hell he is? Uh? The um?

42:46

Everybody always said that

42:48

that the one person who had his ear was

42:50

his daughter. What's happened in that relationship

42:53

to your knowledge? And during this year in the

42:55

White House, Well, I

42:57

mean, I think it's I think she still does have

42:59

his his ear, and I'd

43:02

say she's among the key

43:04

powers in the White

43:06

House. It's it's Ivonka

43:08

Trump and I think they are very much

43:11

alike. They are very

43:13

both transactional,

43:17

you know. I mean somebody, somebody,

43:20

um, I know describes them both

43:22

as without scruples, um

43:26

um. And and I think

43:28

that now, I mean, her position now

43:30

is a difficult one because because

43:32

I mean, I don't think she's going to be indicted,

43:35

but I would place money that Jared

43:37

is going to be indicted. Um.

43:43

Jared is gonna be indebted because Trump is stupid,

43:47

not that um no, But but but the

43:49

the what do you think?

43:51

Well, because I want to get to that as you step

43:53

back, I mean, the book comes out,

43:56

and I don't want to assume anything.

43:58

The book comes out, and one

44:01

might automatically think that many of the people who

44:03

you were talking to and had channels to

44:06

dry up and they don't want to talk to you. And

44:08

something tells me that some of them might go the opposite

44:10

way. I want to talk to me even more because the

44:12

ship is slowly sinking now

44:14

because the presumption is that if he

44:17

that he's priming everybody now Rosenstein

44:19

and everything that he's talking about to fire

44:22

Mueller. He may actually be insane enough.

44:24

Remember with Trump, things you swore were

44:26

impossible in March are

44:29

quote Titian realities by November.

44:31

I mean, there's things that are insane to contemplate.

44:34

Six months later. It's just the daily routine there.

44:36

And and it's super hard to game this out

44:38

because even if you invent a logic,

44:40

a Trump logic, he's

44:43

not only capable but likely of

44:45

of defying his own logic here, right,

44:48

So I couldn't tell you would. I mean,

44:51

it makes no sense, literally

44:53

no sense to people you talked to. Do you still speaking

44:55

to some people? Yeah? And do they tell you that he's gonna

44:57

fire Muller? Um the contem

44:59

we know they contemplated though, well,

45:02

even that, you know, you know the content. That's

45:04

an interesting story because the New York Times went

45:06

with that story. He ordered the firing

45:09

of of of of Mueller.

45:11

He told McGann the lawyer of fire and

45:14

this became a major story and

45:16

a kind of another evidence of

45:19

his you know, his intent

45:21

to obstruct justice, etcetera, etcetera.

45:24

The truth is, and while

45:26

he did order Muller fired,

45:29

that's correct in the story,

45:32

he did order McGan to fire Muller.

45:34

That is correct in the story. The

45:37

truth is this happens every day,

45:39

so so it's it's a kind

45:42

of thing. I mean, it just comes out of his mouth and

45:44

everybody, everybody ignores him.

45:46

So so you know, so everybody,

45:48

Um, you know, I saw there

45:51

there, um uh, I just wanted I wish I

45:53

could just be in that room. He's there and he's

45:55

like, I can't this guy screamed with a plastic

45:57

spoon, give me a medal

45:59

spoon, proper spoon, fire mother, fire

46:01

Miller. It's just like barking

46:04

all these disparate, unconnected

46:06

lines ice cream, Mueller,

46:08

fire, um spoon.

46:12

You know, I

46:14

needed more batteries for this remote remote

46:19

that he's on an island of kind of uh

46:22

dr Moreau or I don't know what it was in think.

46:26

I mean he's always been I mean this is actually

46:28

always throughout his whole career. Fire him,

46:30

fire him. And he didn't have a whole show where

46:32

that yeah you're fired. I never watched

46:35

that. That was the thing. So so

46:37

for the time sale he's he said, he

46:39

he said Mueller should be fired. It's kind

46:41

of like yeah, but um,

46:44

he says everybody should be fired, including

46:47

Mueller, every day and almost every

46:49

second of the day. I've got a couple more

46:51

questions for you because we're gonna run out of time here. But but

46:53

I want to say that I do sit there sometimes

46:55

I go, I don't want to be this motherfucker again. I

46:58

can't do this again. And I

47:01

can't do it. You know, you stick a

47:03

Trump? Oh God, do

47:09

you never want to hear you? You? You don't want to hear

47:11

about Trump again? Is there anything left for

47:13

you to say about Trump? Would there be more stuff from

47:15

you about Trump or the White House

47:17

or this experience or you Well,

47:19

I'm not going to get back into the White House. Well

47:24

let's never say never here. Um,

47:26

if you bring ice cream, you might. I

47:30

mean, I mean, I I absolutely

47:32

believe I will get the call from him

47:34

and he'll he'll go blah blah blah

47:36

blah and rampt and rave and then he'll say,

47:39

come on by. So

47:41

you're not ruling out that you might do another

47:43

book? You know? Sometimes one

47:45

is called one is called in

47:50

an art. In an article I was reading for to

47:52

prepare for this, I there was a quote

47:55

that the writer gives from

47:57

Stephen Levitzky and Daniel

47:59

said blah, and

48:01

he writes one parties view one another

48:03

as mortal enemies. The

48:06

stakes of political competition heightened

48:08

dramatically. Losing ceases

48:10

to be a routine and accepted part of

48:12

the political process, and instead

48:15

becomes a full blown catastrophe. When

48:18

the perceived cost of losing is sufficiently

48:20

high, politicians will be tempted

48:22

to abandon forbearance. Acts

48:26

of constitutional hardball may

48:30

then, in turn further undermine

48:32

mutual toleration, reinforcing

48:35

beliefs that our arrivals

48:37

pose a dangerous threat.

48:40

And of course I think what I'm piggy baging off

48:42

of here is this notion of the members

48:44

of conquerorce not not applauding the state

48:46

of the Union. Are treason us there? Treason

48:49

us? Do you ever go through

48:51

this whole thing? And he gets sad, we're

48:53

depressed? Where you really are

48:56

worried for the country? Are you worried for the country?

49:03

When you do this, you kind of become

49:06

part of it? What I and

49:09

so I didn't feel myself

49:12

looking this from the big lens. It was

49:14

it was very much up close, very

49:17

much about the people who were most

49:19

directly involved in this um

49:21

so I'm not thinking about the country. I

49:24

think what I felt most of all

49:26

is that everybody there

49:30

was tainted by this and felt

49:32

tainted by this, and believe

49:35

that they would not come out ahead, that

49:37

this was a net loss all of the

49:39

people around Trump. That's what

49:42

that's the conclusion that they came to. Would

49:45

expect people to feel. People

49:47

come out of the White House and they make lots of

49:49

money, and they're famous, and they

49:52

have lots of influence and may

49:54

be proud of their work. Exactly

49:56

and literally all of these

49:58

people who went in thinking this

50:00

would happen to them and came

50:03

out as the months rolled

50:05

on, thinking this,

50:07

this is all broke. Um,

50:09

this is not gonna work. This is not going to end

50:11

well for anybody. The

50:13

Democratic Party needs opposition. I

50:16

don't want the Democrats to call all the shots either. I don't

50:18

want the Democrats to be unopposed either, because that's that's

50:20

not good for the country. We need whether it's

50:22

an independent party or we stick with the two party

50:24

system that I don't see that changing. We

50:27

need we need a healthy Republican Party.

50:29

We need a right thinking Republican party. I

50:31

hope that the Republican Party once

50:33

this guy is gone, and I hope that is soon they

50:35

make some effort to heal themselves, because it's really

50:37

really not good for the country to see the Republican

50:40

Party drive off the cliff the way they've done with

50:42

this guy, you know, handcuffed to the steering room.

50:44

UM. I want to say UM

50:48

as we finish, Uh, this is a

50:50

podcast, my radio show. I want to thank my producer's

50:52

Emily Bouten, Kathy Russo and Adam tie Schultz.

50:58

Michael Well, if everybody it might the WHOA, thank

51:01

you so much. I'm

51:06

Alec Baldwin and you're listening to

51:08

Here's the thing. M