0:02

This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening

0:04

to Here's the thing, My chance

0:06

to talk with artists, policymakers

0:09

and performers, to hear their

0:11

stories, what inspires their

0:13

creations, what decisions change their careers,

0:16

what relationships influenced their

0:18

work. The turn

0:20

of the century newspaper baron Joseph

0:22

Pulitzer once remarked, quote, our

0:24

republic and its press will rise

0:27

or fall together unquote as

0:30

the election looms. I, like

0:32

many, am disappointed and bewildered

0:35

by the constant noise of twenty

0:37

four hour cable news channels, paid

0:39

opinion writers, and social media

0:42

feeds. But there

0:44

is a short list of writers

0:46

and broadcasters that managed to cut

0:48

through the clutter, and that I listened to regularly.

0:51

Kurt Anderson on Studio three sixty,

0:54

Brian Lair on w n y C Radio,

0:57

and my guest today Bob Garfield,

0:59

the co host of On the Media with Brooke

1:01

Gladstone. Garfield's trenchant

1:04

interviews hold not just politicians

1:06

and newsmakers accountable, but also

1:08

the journalists who cover them. He's truly

1:11

as fair and balanced as they come.

1:13

Maybe that's because he's always found himself

1:16

in the middle. I was the middle child

1:19

in a middle of

1:21

the middle class household and

1:24

where in western

1:26

suburbs of Philadelphia, the

1:28

affluent Jewey suburbs

1:31

of Philadelphia, and it was kind of a upper

1:34

middle class ghetto called ballet

1:36

Kinwood. And my

1:38

parents were active, civically

1:40

active, and they

1:42

talked about the news mainly

1:45

through the prism of complaining

1:47

about various political figures. And as I

1:49

go back and reconstruct there,

1:52

they were progressive because the people they

1:54

were bad mouthing now

1:56

that I think about it, were Republicans. But

1:59

we didn't have We didn't sit down at the table

2:01

and discuss political

2:03

issues or anything like that. What did he do for a living,

2:06

Well, obviously, he was

2:08

the general manager of a factory

2:11

that made paper plates and

2:14

duh. And but what's fabulous

2:16

about it is the brand of paper plates

2:19

was artist crat fantastic

2:23

and you know it was

2:26

not false advertising. I mean they were

2:28

the most aristocratic paper plates

2:30

so that I've ever used. They

2:32

even handled baked beans. I'm

2:34

just saying. Yeah. So he was in the

2:37

He also had a kind of moon landed. He had

2:39

a creative side. He moonlighted

2:42

as the vice president of a company that made corrugated

2:44

cartons, So he was

2:46

a diverse man. He certainly was her

2:49

renaissance made what about her? My

2:52

mom was a housewife. He was in the plastic

2:54

utensil fortune inherited would

2:57

that she had. We actually we kept

3:00

a kind of Potempkin

3:02

village of affluence. But we

3:05

really struggled, uh

3:07

to keep up with the you know, the

3:09

mantel bounds. And it

3:12

was but it was fine. I mean, we didn't we

3:14

didn't really know. Again this I've reconstructed

3:17

an adult life how my parents struggled

3:19

at the time. But um, you

3:22

know it was it was really unremarkable

3:27

childhood. And you know, I wasn't miserable, I wasn't

3:29

happy. I don't have a whole lot of fodder

3:31

for writing now because my parents didn't abuse

3:33

me and my father wasn't a

3:35

drunk. And

3:38

it was in the high school years. Were you

3:40

involved in any kind of media radio writing.

3:43

I was the I was the president

3:46

of the tetracycling squad. My

3:50

high school was entirely defined by

3:52

ACNE. It was absolutely

3:55

the defining aspect of my high school life. And

3:57

it was politically in

4:00

just did I was part of an fledgling

4:03

organization called something like concerns,

4:05

students for concern,

4:08

and we were for

4:11

a number of things and against a number of things.

4:13

Precisely which ones I don't recall, but it was in the

4:15

middle of Watergate, and

4:17

it was at the more or less

4:20

it had just followed at the point in our

4:22

history where college students were

4:24

occupying administration buildings and so forth.

4:27

So I was playing at being

4:29

politically active. But when it came

4:31

down to go to college, where'd you go? Uh?

4:34

Father died dropped my plans.

4:37

Fortunately, to go to an etsy bitsy

4:39

little school in Vermont called Marlborough

4:41

College, which had like two hundred

4:43

people on the campus, all in

4:45

I'm that students. Half it was

4:47

staff. Half of his staff, I

4:50

think, all dressed in black leotard

4:52

tops, writing a lot of poetry.

4:54

I think there were bongos involved. I'm not sure.

4:57

But it was expensive and we didn't have money. I

4:59

can go there here, So I went to

5:02

Oxford. No, I'm

5:04

sorry, it's Penn State. I

5:09

want to Penn State, where

5:11

I got involved in the newspaper as the world's

5:14

worst nineteen year old columnist.

5:16

I found I didn't quite found a humor

5:18

magazine, but there had been a

5:20

humor magazine at Penn State called Froth that

5:22

I took up and essentially ran

5:25

single handed. So I graduated. And what

5:27

was the inclination in you to do that, to want

5:30

to share information with people, opening

5:32

about things. If you hadn't been doing

5:34

that in high school when you got

5:36

to college, what do they opened up for you? What

5:39

I think opened up was my

5:41

genome. I came from a long line

5:43

of unbelievably opinionated

5:46

people, and I'm

5:48

the first one ever, you know, to make a nickel at it.

5:51

There may have been a desert of facts

5:54

in my growing up, but there was

5:56

absolutely an abundance of opinions.

5:59

And when you left Penn State, you went right into that.

6:01

As a career. I became a newspaper

6:03

reporter in Reading Pennsylvania, part

6:06

of Pennsylvania, Dutch Land. I

6:08

actually had an internship while I was

6:10

still in college. And it's

6:13

just was one of those epiphany moments. First day

6:15

in the newsroom, slovenly

6:17

dressed people saying fuck out

6:20

loud, Well, this is for me, this

6:22

is where I want to spend my life. And

6:24

you know, I did some really solid reporting on

6:27

agricultural economics. I

6:29

literally there a four part series about milk marketing

6:32

as an intern and then

6:34

you know, chase some real news. How many years were you there?

6:37

Intern for a few months and then I immediately got a job

6:39

out of schools as a reporter and reading

6:42

four years four years, So you weren't reading for four years.

6:44

And so we're talking the late seventies probably

6:46

correct, h correct? What

6:49

is journalism in your mind? Is it? Has that

6:51

changed when you were doing that back then?

6:53

What was journalism to you? To

6:56

me, it was finding out about the ship that happens

6:59

and getting it back to the

7:01

folks. It matters too, I mean, that's what it comes

7:03

down to, I think ultimately, you know, and then there's plus

7:05

a big part of it that it's just looking for phenomenal,

7:07

phenomenological stuff, the

7:10

stuff that's going on. It isn't necessarily news. You're

7:12

not watch dogging government figures and taxpayer

7:15

dollars. You're just kind of letters trends.

7:17

Yeah, yeah, And the key

7:19

for me always has been to report

7:22

it fairly neutrally. Now that that has

7:24

changed, not only in the general practice of journalism

7:26

but in my heart of hearts. But the

7:29

idea was, even if you have a point of view,

7:31

just to make damn sure that

7:34

you're intellectually honest about the exercise

7:37

and that you're being fair

7:39

minded. And that was by and large the rules

7:42

of the game in the

7:44

world when you began. I think so

7:47

now, I was not trained. I didn't go to j school.

7:49

I was an English major. But I

7:51

happily blundered into journalism.

7:54

Knew literally from the first morning

7:56

that that's just what I wanted to do. And but

7:58

I was I wasn't even trained

8:00

in basic journalism ethics.

8:03

So on the one hand, that hurt you.

8:06

I did some things as a young journalist

8:09

that we're firing offenses. Nobody

8:11

would ever today

8:13

countenance some of the things

8:15

I did that were encouraged

8:18

by my own newspapers. Give example, you

8:21

know, I would needed tires from my car

8:23

in my city editor, who was corrupt, sent

8:26

me to one of his pals

8:29

and said, you know, tell him I

8:31

sent you, and you'll get a discount. I took a discount

8:33

of my tires. I mean, that's a firing

8:35

offense right there. I was doing

8:38

some investigative reporting, chasing the

8:40

connections between some drug

8:42

dealers and local officials, and I

8:44

went along with a county detective who was

8:47

proceeding along similar lines and

8:50

went to talk to some people, and I didn't

8:52

happen to mention that I was a reporter. I didn't say

8:54

I was a policeman, but I

8:56

was with a policeman, and

8:59

I certainly wouldn't have objected

9:02

if the people we were talking to thought I

9:04

was a policeman. Crossly unethical.

9:06

And later I did something even worse. I

9:09

actually cooperated with the police while

9:11

trying to track down physical

9:13

evidence from someone we both thought was

9:15

a murderer. This is actually a story

9:17

that I'm going to body with because it's it's

9:20

horrifying. Poor woman murdered

9:23

in her home. It happens

9:25

on the other papers cycle.

9:28

So I'm doing the second day story, which means knock

9:30

your neighbors doors, and getting to

9:32

say that, oh, this is so horrible. And we

9:35

thought this just a safe community. Now we're afraid.

9:37

So the guy next door goes

9:40

through this whole song and dance about he's going to put up

9:42

lights, and he's he's going to

9:44

buy double locks, triple

9:46

locks, dead bolts, barricades,

9:48

and I walked away thinking I

9:51

think he was play acting. I think he was overdoing

9:54

it a little bit, you know. So

9:56

when I was talking to the cops later in the day, I said, does

9:58

the next door neighbor have an alibi? Said, oh yeah,

10:00

yeah, checks out. Okay, So

10:02

I wrote my little story and

10:05

the next day the police chief calls me. He

10:07

says, why did you ask about the neighbors alibi?

10:10

I said, well, you know, I thought he was I

10:12

thought he was just overdoing a little I

10:14

sensed play acting. I thought he was playing

10:18

to the mezzanine and uh. He

10:21

said, that's that's interesting. Because his albuy broke down.

10:23

He lied to us and they pieced

10:25

together this scenario. The

10:27

victim had had had foot surgery and he was

10:29

helping her out and take her out the trash.

10:31

But that he had been obsessing over for years,

10:34

decades, and came this opportunity

10:36

when his wife was out and she was home

10:40

recuperating. He goes in.

10:42

He has a key because he's been helping her.

10:45

She's in the basement. She comes upstairs with a

10:47

bar and she sees, oh, it's him.

10:50

She puts the bar down, He makes an

10:52

advance, she spurns it. Next thing you know, she's

10:55

raped and murdered. It sounded

10:58

good to me, but he had hired

11:00

a lawyer and fantastic,

11:04

and the murder is horrendous. But the profile

11:07

just totally was in sync with my

11:09

vision of what might have taken place. So but

11:12

the guy hired a lawyer. When the question got a little

11:14

more rigorous, the guy hired a lawyer,

11:16

and they wouldn't let him surrender fingerprints,

11:18

hair samples, anything you wanted to get a search

11:21

warrant otherwise, leave my client alone.

11:24

So incredibly, I,

11:27

you know, journalist of whatever, fourteen

11:29

months contrived to do a

11:31

follow up story this guy, and I

11:33

take my the

11:36

ideas. I stand there with my pen, all

11:38

right, and while I'm talking to him,

11:40

I drop it. He picks it up. We

11:43

have his fingerprints, we have

11:46

his fingerprints. The police, you know, see

11:48

if it matches the one partial that they have

11:50

from the crime scene, and

11:52

they get their man. Well it

11:55

didn't quite play out that way.

11:57

What happened was I stood

11:59

at his or and he's angry to

12:01

see me there. He's

12:03

angry to see me here. That's a guilty conscience.

12:06

I dropped the pen. It

12:09

falls, He stands and stares. He

12:11

stares at the pen. I stared at the pen.

12:14

I look at him, He looks at me. I

12:16

look at the pen. I look back at him. He's

12:18

not moving. I say, I

12:21

got that, then

12:24

check up the pen Anyway. For years and years

12:26

and years, I thought

12:28

that this guy had dodged the bullet of justice

12:31

and the police had not done a good

12:33

job, and this poor woman was dead, and

12:35

he eventually himself died.

12:41

One year ago, the

12:43

Pennsylvania State Police arrested

12:46

a man for the murder of this woman. He

12:50

was a serial killer. He

12:52

had spent most of the previous fifteen years in

12:55

prison for other murders. For

12:57

whatever reason, he unburdened himself

12:59

about this one. His DNA

13:02

matched the samples where they didn't have DNA testing

13:04

in those days, but they kept the evidence

13:07

the DNA matched. Not

13:10

only did I

13:12

grossly unethically cooperate

13:15

with the police, so we're supposed to be reporting

13:17

about not collaborating

13:20

with I did it in

13:22

the service of hounding an innocent

13:24

man. So

13:28

no, I didn't go to Jay score. You

13:31

seem very burdened by that. I

13:33

haven't done many really terrible things in my

13:35

life. I mean, I did something to ask you to a girl

13:37

in sixth grade. I was mean to her, and I

13:41

still shiver and shutter when I think about

13:43

it. But now, when you're in that period

13:45

of your life, you're in reading and you're in

13:48

the beginning of your career, what news are

13:50

you consuming? Are you an evening news network

13:52

guy? Are you there there's nothing online? You

13:54

can't read the Times? What are

13:57

you consuming? Well, first of all, I was at

13:59

work when evening news was on, so I

14:01

really didn't have access to what

14:04

most people were saying to find out what was going on in the world,

14:06

right, But I did have the AP

14:08

wire right by my desk, so I read

14:10

a lot of stuff in the wires. I

14:13

read the Philadelphia Inquirer. I did not

14:15

read the New York Times every day. I did not read

14:17

the Washington Post. You know. My

14:19

paper of record was the Inquirer. Our paper kind

14:21

of sucked. There were a few talented

14:23

people, there were a lot of not very talented people.

14:27

I had talent, but obviously

14:29

I had no idea what the Hannenburgh's

14:33

still owned the paper. I think it was Try and Go Publications.

14:36

Yeah, and what did you think of the Inquirer was

14:39

it was fantastic. They had all the money in the world. You know, the

14:41

newspaper business used to be

14:44

not only profitable, but obscenely profitable,

14:46

I mean profit margins and on the order of

14:48

thirty five. And it

14:50

was, you know, it was the yes,

14:53

absolutely, that's all gone.

14:55

And that is one of my current obsessions. But put

14:58

that aside for the moment. So while

15:00

I was in reading Pennsylvania covering

15:03

the Sewage Treatment Authority, they were winning Pulletzer

15:05

prizes for like going to Africa

15:07

and doing four part series on the

15:09

plight of the Rhino. And I'm

15:12

sitting at the school board meeting trying to find out

15:14

what part of the budget was going

15:16

towards cafeteria lunches and what changes

15:18

you leave reading and go were. Then

15:20

I went to a paper in Wilmington,

15:23

Delaware, the Wilmington News Journal, which

15:25

was even though it's a tiny little state

15:28

and not that big a paper, was very professionally

15:30

run and had a lot of talent. And

15:33

how long there I was there for less

15:35

than a year, and then well,

15:38

Wilmington was owned by Gannette. Gannette

15:40

started USA Today. This was in

15:43

one they were getting that going. It launched

15:46

on September fifteenth, two

15:49

and I was kind of a friend

15:51

and drinking buddy of my boss, the managing

15:53

editor. Oh I'm an abusive

15:55

drinker, and I, uh, how

15:58

could be others? And I

16:00

was, you know, I have moderated in

16:02

the last thirty or forty years, but

16:05

I was an aspiring, abusive a drinker. Let me put

16:07

it through that way. And my drinking buddy

16:10

was the was the managing editor. He became

16:12

the business editor at this new paper,

16:15

USA Today. He dragged

16:17

me down with him and overnight I was a business

16:19

columnist. His name is Taylor Bucklet. Who was that guy

16:21

that always have to have his picture on USA Today

16:23

in the early days. Yeah,

16:26

he was the He was the chairman of Gannett

16:28

and this was his three quarters

16:31

of a billion dollar vanity project.

16:33

And you know it worked for a while. They're

16:36

not making money now, nobody it's a newspaper. Of course,

16:38

they're not making money. But how does the USA? How does someone like

16:40

USA Today stay in business? Now? Who's eating all

16:43

that cost? The GETT is

16:45

still making money, mainly because of its television

16:47

properties. The products themselves have

16:49

been reduced to almost nothing.

16:52

I mean, it's a shame. This is how is

16:54

in des Moines is one of their papers. And

16:56

picked up the Des Moines Register and

16:59

it's you know, it's kind of like this. It's

17:01

it's been physically shrunken so

17:03

much it's like opening a little

17:05

dollhouse. Its Azoka

17:08

show. Comic newspapers

17:10

are thin, thin, thin there.

17:12

The newsrooms have been decimated.

17:16

The newspaper business is unsustainable.

17:19

This is one of the great crises

17:22

of the economy, but mainly of our democracy.

17:25

We the media economy is

17:27

in such a vortex

17:29

of ruins

17:32

for themselves. With the online edition, they said coming

17:34

out of them, they're they're more generally

17:37

profitable, but they're still they're

17:39

you know, they're looking at the trend lines and they're still

17:41

figuring out ways to cut, cut,

17:43

cut, while looking for the

17:46

you know, these this magic

17:48

revenue bullet that's somehow going to solve everybody's

17:50

problem. I have spent the last

17:52

twelve years in deep

17:55

think and also deep anxiety

17:57

about this situation. You know,

17:59

I can say, unfortunately, pretty unequivocally,

18:02

that magic bullet has not appeared.

18:04

Do you think that that this has happened? Will use the Times?

18:06

Obviously there is the best model. Do

18:09

you think this has happened because those people have gone elsewhere

18:11

for their news or they're just consuming less news, period

18:13

of both. No, it's not news consumption that's

18:15

gone down. On the contrary, there we

18:18

we are a wash in news

18:20

because there we can access any

18:23

news organization in the world instantaneously

18:26

on our telephones, right, so we've got

18:28

no problem getting news. We have problems locating

18:30

rigorous news covering the nuts

18:33

and bolts of government. I mean, try to find some

18:35

state legislative coverage in any

18:37

state in the Union. It's hard to

18:39

do because nobody can afford to have a state house reporter

18:41

anymore, much less

18:43

the smaller cogs in the wheel of

18:46

government. I mean, they're just completely completely

18:48

neglected because nobody can afford

18:50

to put the human beings at the meetings with

18:52

the notepads, like I said, got

18:55

shut down at CBS, Yes, exactly,

18:57

they've They've cut deep into the bone

19:00

and there's there's really nothing on the horizon

19:03

to solve the problem. The problem is there's the

19:05

Internet has given us an

19:08

absolute glut of content.

19:11

The barriers of entry to be a news organization

19:13

used to be a billion dollars for you

19:15

know, printing presses and buildings and employees

19:17

and trucks and ink and paper, and

19:20

that kept all but a handful of oligarchs

19:22

out of the business. Well, now you can

19:24

be a newspaper for the cost of an

19:26

iPhone. You get free production, free

19:29

distribution, So there's a tremendous

19:31

glut of content. Like Lauren Michaels is about

19:33

do he said about YouTube, it would say broadcast

19:36

yourself. And he said, you know, sometimes

19:38

we realize that having executives who are

19:40

in charge of networks and movie studios

19:42

who decide who's ready to be broadcasting, it

19:45

wasn't such a bad idea after all, And maybe

19:47

broadcasting yourself isn't

19:49

the best way for us to get the best

19:51

content out there. But let me let me ask you this, when

19:53

you you when you're done withnet Ganett is how long

19:56

the USA today is? How long? I was there for four

19:58

years? And then where do you go? Well, then I'll be a slee

20:00

I became a critic of advertising

20:02

for twenty five years and made fun of TV commercials

20:05

for a living at a trade magazine called Advertising

20:07

Age. Did you make a lot of enemies doing that?

20:09

I believe I did. Yeah. I have sat

20:11

at a dinner table and a fancy restaurant

20:14

in can and had

20:16

an executive come across

20:18

the dinner table. A hit

20:20

been overserved, but nonetheless trying

20:23

to physically assault me. I mean that stuff happened

20:25

because no human example. Why you were

20:27

you were You were literally critiquing their creative

20:29

output of the You were a column.

20:32

It was a column for advertising age, in

20:34

which you just comment commented about whatever the hell you wanted

20:36

to do in the world of advertising. Yeah, you know the commercials. It's

20:38

a Pepsi commercial that's shot and you look at

20:40

it like from the security camera of a seven

20:42

eleven or whatever, and you see

20:45

the coke vendor sneak to try

20:47

to get a pepsi from

20:49

the pepsi cooler instead

20:51

of the coke one, and he's looking around all furtively

20:54

and he goes to take this thing and he pulls it

20:56

out and the whole every

20:58

can tumbles out of the cooler and he's

21:01

totally busted. Right. It's

21:03

a pretty famous commercial directed

21:05

by one of the greatest TV commercial

21:08

directors who ever lived, a guy named Joe Pitka. And

21:11

I thought that what a great commercial. And I had

21:13

a four star system. I gave it three and a half

21:15

stars. Why because for

21:17

whatever reason, they

21:19

didn't record the sound of

21:21

full soda cans falling

21:24

out of a cooler and then layer it

21:27

over the actual sound which we hear in the commercial,

21:29

which is of empty cans prop cans

21:31

falling out. So it was there's really you see it.

21:33

It's funny, but there's this any sound of empty

21:35

cans, right, and you go, wait,

21:38

what of all details to leave

21:40

out? So I knocked him down. I didn't usually

21:42

do this because I was worried about my

21:44

key issues whether it would sell goods and services.

21:47

But in this case it was an annoyance and I gave

21:49

it three and a half stars. You

21:51

would have thought that I had written that this guy

21:53

was a Nazi, that he was a pedophile.

21:56

No. I took off a half a star for

21:58

sound effects, and he wanted to kill

22:00

me. Now twenty five years

22:03

you do that, and during that time,

22:05

do you just have your political gland

22:08

removed? I took my shots. You

22:11

know, having a column enables you to get

22:14

any range in them, opinion in through

22:16

the prism of whatever is you're nominally writing about.

22:19

So I took my shots. You know. I

22:21

wrote some op eds. You know, there were like eight Bob Garfields,

22:23

and the ad Critic was just one of them.

22:26

But I also started working at almost

22:28

the same time for NPR for all things

22:30

considered as a roving feature

22:32

correspondent going around looking

22:35

for weird, quirky kinds of

22:37

Americana. The guy

22:39

who wanted to do a home cryonics experiment

22:42

in his backyard and got a sears

22:44

shed, and there was Grandpa on

22:46

dry ice. You know, that's that sort of thing. And

22:49

I did hundreds and hundreds of these for a DC over

22:52

the same period of time. How did you connect with npr

22:55

ah Okay? I wrote an

22:57

op ed about going hunting with my in

23:00

laws. I'm a Jewish kid from the

23:02

suburbs of Philadelphia. They were cast like family,

23:04

much like yours. Actually it's they were the bald

23:06

Ones, except from western Pennsylvania.

23:09

And you know, they could all build a house

23:12

with their bare hands, blindfolded, and they

23:14

killed anything that moved with high

23:16

powered rifles. I remember once

23:18

that Thanksgiving, my mother

23:20

in law said to me, Bobby, would you

23:22

handle hand me that cast role from

23:25

the top of the refrigerator, And I said, you mean this

23:27

one next to the bullets. So

23:30

it's a different lifestyle. So I

23:32

I did a piece of a fish

23:34

out of water piece about going hunting with them,

23:37

and sold us in the New York Times. It's gonna be not

23:40

bad page in the Times. They laugh, laugh, laugh,

23:42

laugh left, and then at the very last minute they killed

23:44

it because there were religion jokes

23:47

in it and they said this is our only

23:49

sacred cow. Well it

23:52

wasn't. But in any event, with

23:54

regret, they they said, we're

23:56

not going to run this after all. And for whatever reason,

23:58

I don't know why, I called all things considered. I

24:01

wasn't even a regular listener to the show, and

24:04

talked to the executive producer, guy named Art Silverman.

24:06

He said, we'll come in and read it. And I read it. It

24:09

was on the air that night, so we

24:11

have a great voice for radio. You never thought

24:14

about that, that had never been pitched to you before. Well,

24:16

in fact, thank you, but

24:18

you speak so clearly. But I didn't.

24:22

I was there. Here's where I was when I was first

24:24

starting a radio and I taught

24:26

myself to come back here. This

24:28

is this is pretend. I don't know, it's maybe

24:30

it's natural, but I was here. In fact,

24:32

the same guy on my second piece in the radio

24:35

I recorded, and they I wasn't there

24:37

for the actual mix of the thing, and I didn't hear

24:39

it because I was at work. And I called him

24:41

and said, Hey, Art, how did how did I sound? He

24:44

said, um,

24:47

sub human, early

24:49

alive. But

24:53

Bob Garfield has come alive in

24:55

a major way over the last sixteen

24:58

years as the co host on the Media

25:01

Coming Up. We talked about where he gets his

25:03

news today and what he thinks about

25:05

the election, Explore

25:09

the Here's the Thing archives. Dick

25:12

Cavitt made a career on television by

25:14

getting stars to open up as real

25:16

people, but it wasn't always that way.

25:19

I was going through old envelopes of stuff. I found

25:21

three report cards from

25:24

third, fourth and fifth grade. Dick

25:26

has learned to control his talking is

25:29

on two of them,

25:32

and Dick miss learned to let others

25:34

talk occasionally. One of the wittier ones,

25:37

Uh, put down. Take a listen

25:39

at Here's the Thing dot org. This

25:51

is Alec Baldwin and you were listening to

25:53

Here's the Thing. Bob Garfield

25:56

has been holding journalists and media

25:58

makers accountable for decade,

26:00

but as sources and outlets have proliferated,

26:03

it's become no small task to keep

26:05

tabs on everything that's out there. Garfield

26:08

told me he's got one ace up

26:10

his sleeve. One of the best things

26:12

about being a co host and on the

26:14

media is we have a staff of six producers

26:17

who are all better educated,

26:19

smarter, have more scope

26:22

and uh knowledge and understanding,

26:24

and I ever had on my best day on Earth,

26:27

they called to my attention stuff that I ordinarily

26:30

Inaccadia diet wouldn't. They are my aggregators.

26:32

So I'm in this situation where I have this most

26:34

wonderful, rich inbox of

26:36

stuff that has been curated by

26:38

the smartest, most curious

26:41

people in the world. But my

26:44

go to it's it's the New York Times. I'm

26:46

sorry, but I think it's it's a daily

26:48

Mirrornic was on our show and said, it's the weather.

26:50

It was it's the weather. And

26:53

I read the Washington Post I'm from.

26:55

I live in Washington and that's my local paper.

26:58

They're doing the best they can with their shrinking

27:00

resources. The Times has

27:03

cut way way way back on in

27:05

many areas, including most recently

27:07

just playing local coverage

27:10

of stuff that happens, including fires

27:12

and crimes. They're cut way back,

27:15

but they do just most remarkable

27:18

reporting. It just like seems like every week

27:20

they're breaking another series about something that

27:22

you just can't believe they

27:24

got the story on and whether it's

27:27

whether it's the conditions at

27:29

Riker's or the the cozy

27:31

arrangements between think tanks and

27:34

their funders, horrifying

27:37

a couple of stories they did about I don't know, two or

27:39

three months ago, or nail salons.

27:41

They just blow me away all

27:44

the time. Well, it's funny how you say that, because

27:46

people in my life always laugh at me. I

27:48

have two stacks, The New Yorker and the New York

27:51

Times of back issues to read

27:53

the long form articles. The

27:55

New Yorker, as an institution, it

27:58

has labeled itself variously is the great magazine

28:00

that that ever was? And it is. Uh,

28:04

there's not a week goes by that there isn't something

28:06

in there that is unbelievably

28:09

illuminating and sometimes

28:13

validating in the way that we shouldn't worry about.

28:15

But oh yeah, that's I like this story because

28:18

it's my worldview too, and I'm glad to see

28:20

it reflected, which is one of the things

28:22

that has destroyed journalism,

28:24

certainly on cable, that notion of

28:27

because there is an infinite amount of content, we

28:29

can now terry pick what we want to consume, right,

28:32

So, I mean, it's like watching porn

28:35

online if your fetish is

28:38

you know, whatever amputee uh

28:42

Haitian lesbians you can, you can get the

28:44

whole thing right. And that's what that's

28:47

what political journalism is. Now. If you look

28:49

at the world a certain way, there

28:51

is going to be this Corney cope of options

28:54

where all you do is sit there and you get

28:56

your worldview valid. There's nothing on television

28:58

for you, no television news viewing, nothing,

29:01

uh, no program Meet

29:03

the Press. I sometimes

29:06

watch parts of Meet the Press to see what happened

29:08

when a newsmaker accidentally says

29:10

something newsworthy, right, and

29:12

at least there's journalism taking place there.

29:15

But there is no journalism taking place

29:17

on cable news unless there's a war

29:19

actually breaking out and they're showing

29:21

pictures of of tracer

29:24

fire. It is nothing but talk,

29:28

not only to talk about the news,

29:30

but it's talk by pundits hired because

29:32

what they're going to say is preordained.

29:36

But they

29:38

certainly are, and so there's

29:41

no way there to go, you

29:43

know. But I, you know, I real a lot of stuff in Slate.

29:45

As it turns out another one of my eight

29:50

or Amazon partnership with five thirty

29:52

eight. My media diet is

29:54

basically the New York Times,

29:57

the Post in whatever post,

30:00

Washington Post, I'm sorry, the real

30:02

Post stir

30:04

there. The

30:07

Post is of a good sports department, but go ahead, and

30:09

their headline writers are pretty good. And I was the Daily

30:12

News. Whoever the person

30:14

is who is the editor of the Daily News

30:17

front page should get some

30:19

sort of Nobel prize. I don't know if there's a category

30:22

for piff, but

30:24

there should be. Um,

30:27

you know, I went to George Washington University. I

30:29

went there for three years full time. I was in a pre

30:32

law program there. I mean, I was really really

30:34

locked in loaded that I wanted to run for office. How

30:37

have we arrived at this place where

30:40

both parties this is the best we can offer

30:42

right now? What is your opinion of that? My

30:46

opinion is that this

30:49

this election represents the

30:51

manifestation of the inevitable

30:54

and because of that actually very

30:57

phenomenon that I was describing before, where

30:59

we can go cherry pick our media

31:01

sources to match our worldview. The

31:05

political rhetoric has vastly changed in this

31:07

country, and we have we have been for the last

31:11

years or so in an ongoing campaign.

31:14

I mean, this is this is not a notion

31:17

novel to me. Uh, there is a

31:19

perpetual campaign and everything that's

31:21

about scoring political points and running down the

31:23

opposition and um

31:26

fighting cultural force, nullification,

31:29

and it's turned out to be a very uh

31:32

solid cottage industry for Rubert Murdoch

31:34

and a few others. But the problem is nobody

31:37

actually does any governing, and

31:39

governing is impossible, especially on

31:42

the legislative level, because because

31:45

every bill that comes to the floor is

31:48

a battle, and you have to win

31:50

the battle, and it doesn't matter

31:52

what happens to the electorate

31:56

the people do. We need to go to the mattresses

31:58

over everything, over everything.

32:02

And as a consequence, particularly in the Republican

32:05

Party, the voices have gotten ever

32:07

shriller, ever less

32:10

tethered to reality.

32:12

I mean, for God's sakes, almost the entire

32:15

roster of candidates who

32:18

were seeking the Republican nomination are

32:20

in one stage or another denial about global

32:22

warming. Quite a number of from believe in creationism,

32:25

you know, they think there was a Noah's Ark

32:27

and a garden of Eden, Like, what the

32:30

fuck? How has it come

32:32

to be that this has become

32:34

the mainstream. Well, it's been incremental and

32:38

as anti science as they are anti

32:40

science, anti intellectual anti

32:42

fact without getting into him

32:45

and shooting fish in a barrel about Trump's

32:47

demeanor, which is you know that that that's been done

32:49

to a fairly well, what's what troubles

32:52

you about her primarily, Well,

32:55

what troubles me about her is

32:57

more or less the same thing that's gonna make me

33:00

for I mean, she's a technocrat wonk

33:02

in the Clinton mold, right, she's

33:05

one of them, you know, That's why

33:07

I feel safe casting my

33:09

ballot for her. Let's just start

33:12

what she doesn't appear to be insane. Whatever

33:15

she's done in her past that was sleazy

33:18

or had the appearance of being sleazy,

33:20

it just doesn't begin to utter

33:24

compared to what she's running against. Right, But

33:27

there's you know, she's a professional politician. She

33:30

has this history of lies, of

33:33

some politically opportunistic,

33:35

some done in the heat of a campaign against Obama,

33:38

for example, And the

33:40

Bosnian runway is a little bit appalling.

33:43

In fact, it's a lot of polly you

33:45

know, it's really she's the best, but

33:49

she's also a victim

33:52

of She was, you know, really the first

33:54

the proto victim, the her victim

33:56

of the great right wing media conspiracy.

33:59

They were out for nothing less than

34:01

destroying the Clintons, and they

34:03

used the Congress to do it. That was

34:05

their tool. They're they're really good. I love Tuban's

34:08

book on that subject. I thought Tuban's book was very good.

34:10

And we talked about those Chicago law firms

34:12

and the people, how much they were out to and how the

34:14

tentacles, how far they went to that group that was out

34:16

to get the Clintons. Yeah, it's not rhetoric. I mean

34:18

it was an extremely well funded,

34:21

actual conspiracy. Richard Mellon Scaife

34:24

and uh, you know, I

34:27

think I think it was a Pittsburgh Pittsburgian

34:29

Okay. Now with the thing they think

34:31

about her though, was that I mean, with

34:33

what I do for a living, were asked to look

34:35

at the drama inside

34:37

and the motivation inside the person. You know,

34:40

why did they do what they do the

34:42

public the membrane between the public

34:44

and the private to in order

34:46

to create the character. They're out there in the world doing

34:48

this. But here's what's really going on. And

34:51

with her, I always thought, and I don't I don't fault

34:53

her for this. With her, I always her whole life was about

34:55

rewriting her repitaph. Her whole life

34:58

in the last it's like. And then he was

35:00

indicted, and he was impeached, and

35:02

he was acquitted, and they wolf went off to Chappaquay

35:04

together and she just took a pencil with not so fast.

35:07

Then she went on to become a United States Senator

35:09

from New York and the Secretary of State and the first. But

35:12

what I'm hopeful about, and this is, you know,

35:14

this is the last vestige of my

35:17

my passion for or my faith

35:20

in some shard of what

35:22

this country is about, is that she will

35:24

get in there and she will help to reshape

35:26

the court, and we'll get the citizens united.

35:29

They taken care of once and for all, and sort we gotta

35:31

get the money out of this game we

35:33

need. I mean, the country has been run by Ivy League

35:35

men. Half the presidents since Kennedy

35:38

had an Ivy League men have Kennedy

35:41

went to Harvard, uh

35:43

Johnson went to Texas State Teachers College,

35:46

uh Nixon went to Whittier College,

35:49

Ford went to Michigan, Carter

35:51

was in the Naval Academy. Reagan

35:53

went to Eureka College. And

35:56

then we have Bush, Clinton,

35:59

Bush, Obama at four Ivy leaguers

36:01

in a row. You know, the best and the brightest

36:03

have been running this country for the last since

36:06

nineteen and

36:08

where's it gotten us? I mean, no worse, no

36:10

better than the non ivy leaguers. But

36:13

the problem is the royal professional politicians, the roll

36:15

people. You think any of these people lay in bed.

36:17

Do you think for one minute, Hillary

36:20

Clinton, forget about Trump. They lay in bed

36:22

and their significant others saying to them, what's

36:25

the matter, baby? I hear get tossed

36:27

an in turn over. Wait, oh, I just gotta I gotta work out

36:29

this whole social security

36:31

just driving me. Actually, I gotta tell you, I

36:34

do think I do think Clinton

36:37

does do that. I mean, that's what defines the Clintons,

36:39

because their overwheming ambition is

36:42

equally to fly in Air Force one and

36:45

to change change public policy.

36:47

They are as ambitious

36:49

as technocrats as they are politicians.

36:52

And you know that's the deal, that's the

36:54

that's the devil's deal when you when you get one

36:57

of those and and really all politicians,

36:59

I mean almost

37:01

by definition, anyone who would seek public

37:03

office and due to themselves and their family,

37:05

the many many uh

37:10

indignities that goes along with it, including

37:12

the brothel that is campaign finance.

37:15

You have to assume that there's something just off

37:18

there. I you

37:20

know, I wouldn't mind if my daughter came home

37:22

with a motorcycle mechanic. I would really

37:25

be upset if she came back with some young

37:27

guy in a white shirt and orange tire running for Congress.

37:31

I'd really be upset. Where

37:33

do you think we're gonna be? Do you think that the network

37:35

news? Because they have an edict

37:37

apparently from the

37:40

from the government, the fairness

37:42

doctrine, and also what's the what's

37:44

the law that they required to show

37:47

the news the Well, there was

37:49

there was a public service requirement that you

37:51

had to maintain in exchange

37:54

for having a broadcast license

37:56

and to use the public airwaves.

37:59

I don't think that has actually been

38:01

lost since the Reagan administration. I think

38:03

the fairness doctrine is history.

38:06

What happened, though, in almost exactly

38:08

the same time as they no longer had

38:11

to uh run

38:13

public service content, is it became

38:15

enormously profitable. And back in the

38:17

seventies, run Arledge, who had gone from

38:19

ABC Sports to

38:23

ABC News, figured out wait wait wait wait

38:25

wait wait wait, there's gold in

38:27

them our hills, And

38:29

all of a sudden there's backwater that

38:31

they were doing out of civic duty and certain

38:34

amount of congressional impetus

38:36

was making the money hand over fist and

38:40

uh, and it was that way until

38:42

you know, about ten years ago. In the network news

38:44

is in exactly the same situation

38:47

that every other news organization. It

38:49

is in this death spiral of the

38:51

media economy. And now they're you know, they're cutting

38:53

back and their audience is shrinking,

38:56

shrinking, shrinking, and the

38:59

people who watch them are not going to be around

39:02

for much longer because the average viewer of

39:04

the CBS evening News has been clinically dead

39:06

since two thousand and six. So,

39:10

uh, it's you know, they're facing they're

39:12

facing the same kind of problem. Do you think that in

39:14

the likelihood that she wins? I mean,

39:16

I'm not just saying this because I'm a supporter of hers, but do

39:19

you think that considering the likelihood that she would

39:21

win, and then he's gonna go wherever he goes?

39:24

Um? Now we're here in Trump is

39:26

the nominee? What happens in the next round, who they're going to run

39:28

against? SOB me next time? What kind of person? Will

39:30

they learn something from this? The

39:32

only I mean I'm trying to think. I'm

39:35

trying to follow the trajectory. Remember

39:38

a little while ago, I said this was an inevitability

39:40

that we had to come to this because the

39:43

party kept getting more the mainstream

39:46

became more and more fringe, the fringe

39:48

became more and more mainstream. And

39:51

I suppose that

39:54

Trump is the quintessence

39:57

of that, the apotheosis of

40:00

UH, of perversion

40:02

of whatever it is the GP

40:05

once stood for. But the correct you know

40:07

that the trajectory presumably can only

40:10

get worse. But what's worse? I'm thinking,

40:12

I don't know that that monster from

40:14

Alien that comes out

40:16

of his rib cage

40:19

or hers, and I don't

40:21

know. I the party

40:24

rents previous is. I

40:26

don't understand what's happening. How has he

40:29

kept his job? I mystified, what

40:31

are they you know, what are they going for? I guess

40:34

it's all about of the Preme Court. And that

40:36

is true because listen, with the Congress

40:38

being in the state that it is, nobody's going to be

40:40

passing any stairs.

40:43

Nothing is going to get through the converse, it is going

40:45

to be in an absolute standstill,

40:47

I suppose. And therefore, what

40:50

you know, if there's no legislation. What's

40:52

the president going to be the president of Well, she

40:55

can start a war, you know, and

40:57

she can appoint the judiciary, and

40:59

probably, but not necessarily,

41:01

probably the Senate will actually have to

41:04

do its job and confirm

41:06

or not confirmed these these candidates. You

41:09

know, there's already large backups, including

41:11

the Supreme Court seat, because

41:13

the Senate has not wanted to act on judiciary

41:16

appointments. But presuming that

41:18

can't last forever, that they got to

41:21

offer their advice and consent. Uh,

41:24

that's the president's the new president's influence,

41:27

and that's what it's all about. That's why evangelicals

41:29

are are going to vote for this

41:32

buffoon, this apparently

41:37

immoral or immoral, childish,

41:40

sleazy and

41:43

I mean, you know, how did they Gosh, how do

41:45

you how have you pulled the lever?

41:47

If you're in Iowa evangelical, how do

41:49

you go in and pull the lever for this person?

41:55

He's like the worst person ever. And

41:57

I want to say to people, I want to say, like,

41:59

you're atridive her. I really don't

42:01

get it. She's not that hate herble. I

42:03

mean, I have my reservations about her too, and I'm happy

42:06

to voice those, but I don't hesitate the voice those

42:08

but when I see people going you hate her

42:10

that much that you're going to pull the lever

42:12

for him as a as an expression of that wrong,

42:15

wrong, wrong, wrong, it's the cookies,

42:17

to tell you the truth. I think it goes back to her saying she's

42:19

not going to sit around baking cookies, which

42:22

was an insult to a lot of cookie

42:24

baking women who really cherished their

42:27

roles in what they perceived

42:29

as the traditional American family.

42:31

And it was it was a

42:33

spike in the heart of their values

42:36

and they will never ever

42:39

forget it. Um.

42:41

My last question for you, and I

42:43

want to phase this carefully, is um,

42:46

you know Howard Stern when I would do Howard Sterns

42:48

show, and most people

42:50

who know Howard know this that off Mike, he's

42:53

nothing like he is on mil on microphone.

42:55

He's blown himself up to use Jerry

42:57

Seinfeld's term for his on stage

43:00

sona. And and for you, I'm wondering

43:02

you know on your show you are wonderfully so

43:05

very angry and very bitter and very

43:07

cynical inside the content of your show, almost

43:10

so much so like sometimes I'll listen to you and I think this guy's

43:12

gonna have a heart attack on the air while he's

43:14

reporting this. A slow motion heart attack,

43:16

but a heart attack nonetheless. Um,

43:19

is that is an an accurate depiction of you. I

43:23

think it's fair to say

43:25

that you and I are b

43:28

I am, we're

43:31

brothers in anger management issues, and

43:35

uh that you know, what you hear is

43:37

what you get. I mean, I get angry at

43:39

telemarketers, now that is that's

43:41

wasted anger. But

43:43

I'm anger that they're interrupting me. I'm angry

43:46

that they're lying to me, that they're criminals.

43:48

It just makes me mad. And

43:50

you know, you think I would have exorcised

43:53

those demons long air. That's because they're not going

43:55

away. So why do

43:58

I permit myself to get piste off a lot? Pick? Either

44:02

I'm the most honorable man and I

44:04

cannot separate the daily annoyances

44:07

of life from actual

44:09

issues of moral

44:11

conduct in this world. Or I have

44:13

a defect, and I'm

44:15

not sure exactly what it is. I'm guessing

44:17

it's a little bit of both. You

44:24

can hear Bob Garfield and Brook Gladstone

44:26

on the media on over four hundred

44:28

radio stations nationwide and on demand

44:31

and on the media dot org. This

44:33

is Alec Baldwin and you were listening to

44:35

here's the Thing