0:03

I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening

0:05

to Here's the thing. Deborah

0:08

Clatter is the biggest name

0:10

in a very small profession restaurant

0:13

recommender, not reviewer

0:16

recommender. Here's how she

0:18

puts it. It's not about look

0:20

what's hot and happening. It's about what's happening

0:22

for you just grabbing a bite on a Thursday

0:25

night birthday. I'm

0:27

here to supply you with an adventure or

0:29

comfort. Clutter can

0:31

tell you the best mofongo in the

0:33

Bronx and which Michelin two

0:36

stars accommodate siliacs. I've

0:39

known her for years, going back to her

0:42

days as a lighting designer

0:44

on some of the best and most challenging

0:46

stages in New York. She's

0:49

risen just as high in her newfield.

0:52

Restaurants are eager for her clientele,

0:55

so she keeps a low profile. We

0:57

did not post a headshot for this

1:00

next episode, and her name isn't even

1:02

on her website eat Quest and

1:04

y C. That anonymity

1:07

will be familiar to anyone who

1:09

knows about restaurant critics. But

1:12

unlike with critics, not just Cletter's

1:15

face, but her voice, even

1:17

her taste are absent. From her

1:19

work too. You know, I

1:21

check out a swath of restaurants for

1:24

other people's taste, not my own, because my taste,

1:26

honestly would be you know, I like places where

1:28

waitresses have been working there for thirty five years.

1:31

I'm not going to make everybody else do

1:35

there. When you say you do this and

1:37

you're tilting towards your clientele,

1:40

what do they typically want?

1:42

The most popular request and I know you'll identify

1:44

with this is quiet.

1:47

It's like Pankotonia. Why do I love

1:49

pankota You want to know why? There might

1:51

be a little little Coltrane

1:53

on the background. I'm having my eggs in my

1:56

croissant with Coltrane very low,

1:58

you know. And there's another place sound like I like the

2:00

food, but you know they're

2:02

playing that particular music and they're playing it that

2:04

loud because they want to get you out of there as fast as possible.

2:07

Well, music sets the pace for a meal, and it

2:10

just you know, you look at somebody like Alex

2:12

Stupac, who has Empon in um

2:14

Midtown, and he also has Empon

2:16

al Pastore, which is tacos

2:19

in the East Village at pastor.

2:21

He plays the music he said as loud as humanly

2:23

possible. Why because there

2:26

it's dealing with people who are younger, and it's

2:28

people who are also um, you know, want

2:30

to have a good time, want to get off the sort

2:32

of the buzz and the high of like being there with this great

2:34

music and eating tacos and all that. So

2:38

that's like a rock concert. But he said that the

2:40

Empyon in Midtown is

2:42

like the studio album. He put in

2:44

these sound panels so that people can it's

2:46

convivial and fun and all of that,

2:49

but you can also hear yourself. Think you

2:51

have to know your audience. It doesn't bother you

2:53

in some restaurants you go to with the music is playing, of

2:55

course it does. A friend

2:57

of well, a friend of mine was

2:59

was eating in Brooklyn to a place that I sent her

3:02

and she said the music was really loud. So I said,

3:04

is it possible that you could just turn it down a little

3:06

bit? And the person said the waitress

3:08

said, that's how it's done in Brooklyn. Oh,

3:11

really right, And and that's

3:13

how it's done in Brooklyn. Really, we don't

3:15

have a lot on our mind, so really,

3:18

what's the getting in the way of we want to have a good time.

3:20

We want to have a good time. That's what I really meant. So

3:23

anyway, but I think that people want to go somewhere

3:25

where they can actually have a conversation. And

3:27

that comes up so often. And it's

3:29

only really true in America because equals

3:32

it's global, even though it's called Equest and y

3:34

see um and I've got people,

3:36

I got people all over the plans. You're

3:38

you're, you're the equest NYC is

3:41

booking people around the world. Yeah, I do

3:43

Italy a lot. I do. I have my

3:46

Bible you gave me, you do, It's true,

3:48

I can update it nowts.

3:50

I know I go a little overboard because I get

3:53

really excited and I think, oh no, wait, you have to eat

3:55

here, and you have to try this. But basically,

3:57

I get so many people who say, we wanted

3:59

to go to dinner. We spent an hour looking at the

4:01

internet. We got overwhelmed by the amount

4:03

of choices. So we went to the same place we always

4:05

go to, and we want to go somewhere else,

4:08

So where can we go? So sometimes people come to me

4:10

for a list of ten new places

4:12

new to them. They want your recommendation,

4:14

meaning they don't come to you and say I want to go to pair

4:16

say or whatever, and you or there was something right that

4:18

who were very self determining. There's some of your self

4:20

determining. But I'm really not that person.

4:23

I mean, I'm happy to do that that can but

4:25

what I pay you, if they pay me, I'm you

4:27

know, I'll do whatever you want me to do. Um

4:31

No, but it's but what's fun for me

4:33

about it is that it's kind of like a dating

4:35

service for people in their food. I

4:38

asked certain questions such as,

4:40

uh, tell me three places you hate in three places

4:42

you lot. So this is a questionnaire. They feel like everything is

4:44

online. Um, everything is by email. It's

4:46

not. I don't have a formal questionnaire, although I probably

4:49

you know, should you're not on the phone with anybody? Not?

4:51

Really, they don't get the food. They declared a sex phone

4:53

sex voice. A lot

4:55

of deals with that voice. But I'll tell you I should tell

4:57

them to call. It's really self robbery that you're not doing.

5:00

But you do it by email. I

5:02

usually do it by email, and people are welcome to call

5:04

me. It's just that people seem to you know,

5:07

they're busy, they don't pick up, so

5:11

that wouldn't work, really think about it, and

5:13

you have a standard set of questions. I have just a couple of

5:15

basic ones, and then the questions are determined

5:17

by who they are, if they're you know, I

5:20

did. Somebody came from London last

5:22

winter over the holidays and

5:24

they had children ranging an age

5:26

from eighteen to six and

5:29

they wanted to go places with them. That was not

5:31

easy and

5:34

macaroni cheese exactly. So

5:36

I had to sort of come up with a whole range of things.

5:38

Plus, you know, I branched out a little. They wanted some activities

5:41

and all of that. So I got very involved

5:43

with the Knicks organization because they wanted to go to a basketball

5:45

game and you know, I found them the right seats

5:47

and all that kind of stuff. So they do some other things

5:49

as well. They did and it was kind of it was fun

5:52

actually, but but basically I stick to food.

5:54

But it was interesting to define things

5:56

that I thought would appeal to everyone. And

5:59

I love the challenge. I love the challenge of somebody

6:01

sort of saying like, here's all the things

6:03

I won't eat, here's what I don't like. Um,

6:06

now find me something that I want, right, And

6:08

I feel like, okay, they want you to

6:10

read their mind. They do. I want you to tell me what

6:12

I don't even know about myself. Can

6:14

I tell a lighting story? Is that? Out of that you can

6:16

do whatever you want. Years

6:18

ago I had a client when I was doing interior lighting,

6:21

and he said, and he had a couch in the middle of a

6:23

big room and aloft and no tables

6:25

near nothing else. And he said, I want to read

6:27

on the couch, but I don't want any walstconsins,

6:29

I don't want any ceiling light, and I don't

6:31

want any lamps, you know. And I thought, like,

6:34

okay, a miner's hat could work out well for

6:36

you. But with a torch he

6:39

summoned you snap and

6:42

I could record it for you

6:45

could move your eyes over the page in the dark.

6:47

And I'm reading here. I want to go back,

6:49

and mentioned to people, said they don't lose

6:52

track here. You and I met in nine

6:55

when I was when we were doing Prelude to

6:57

a Kiss. We did that at eighty nine

6:59

and then we went nine. You want into the film, and you

7:01

were doing lighting design in

7:03

the Theater of Broadway, and you were very

7:05

close with Norman, the late Norman Renett, who

7:07

directed the play, and you were doing that kind of work,

7:09

and then you went into residential lighting,

7:12

the garden lighting, mostly because garden lighting is

7:15

like getting to light a set without having to worry

7:17

about the actor's faces. So you have nobody saying

7:19

like make it brighter, they're not laughing, um,

7:22

you know, and you get to do all the sort of evocative,

7:24

mysterious How did you design in the theater

7:26

over work? Um? Gosh? Uh

7:29

years? I mean, you know, like for sixteen

7:32

years or something when you stopped. Why did you stop?

7:34

I stopped partly because

7:37

all the directors I knew were either going to TV,

7:40

film or dying. Norman

7:42

passed away from you, remember,

7:44

so for you, just the lands, the landscape

7:47

you changed, and I missed it. I missed the collaborative

7:49

experience of it. But my other passion was always

7:51

food, and I was always the person that people

7:53

asked, you know, like where can we go? What can we

7:55

do? And you know, in the early days before the internet,

7:58

Norman and I would want we had no money, and we would

8:00

walk all over the city all the time just for fun, and

8:02

you'd walk into neighborhoods that were not gentrified

8:04

and you'd find this like fantastic little place

8:07

that no one knew about because there wasn't an internet,

8:09

And you know, then we drag people down there,

8:11

and you know, I would drag people down there and

8:14

find places, and it just it's something

8:16

that always made me really happy to do. You

8:18

know, finding a restaurant, reading

8:20

a menu is is sort of a calm experience

8:23

for me. It's it's it's pleasure back

8:26

then, wandering the streets with Norman

8:28

and you had no money. Dining

8:31

is expensive, and so how

8:33

do you manage to go and sample? How

8:35

do you know all these places? Do you just have a

8:37

word? Are you always the honored guest

8:40

at the table because you're such an expert? You of a lot of friend Seriously,

8:42

because I know people like this. That is partly true.

8:44

If I picked the place and I tell them what we're going to

8:46

do and what we're going to have and stuff, I'm at the table.

8:49

Totally true. And Norman and I used to we used to

8:51

go to a coffee shop around the corner from the theater

8:53

company that we ran, and um and

8:56

the guy the waiter there knew us and

8:58

he treated us like it was twenty one and and

9:00

I was a little late one day and Norman was waiting

9:02

for me, and the waiter came over to him and said,

9:04

um, are you waiting for her? You

9:07

can always sort of make an occasion I

9:09

think out of anywhere you go and for me, I

9:12

can supply you with luxury. I can also supply

9:14

you with an affordable alternative, because

9:17

there's so many great places to eat in New York that are

9:19

not expensive and so eat.

9:21

Question I see is not about, you

9:23

know, you have to have a lot of money and you have to go here.

9:26

It's really about you know, finding like a great

9:28

dumpling in uh,

9:30

you know in Queens, or finding you

9:32

know something low, you know, great eggplant,

9:34

Parmersian hero. Exactly what's

9:38

changed in New York in terms of dining,

9:40

Oh, that's interesting. Trends, things

9:43

you see, attitudes, cost

9:45

I mean there's always trends, like right now,

9:47

I think that vegan has become so popular,

9:49

so now there are vegan restaurants popping up everywhere,

9:52

and and then there's also sort of the whole

9:54

let's have a lot of meat and cheese. So they're

9:56

you know burgers that the Emmy

9:59

burger, which is from the pizza place, but they're

10:01

burgers legendary. It's you know,

10:03

like two patties, cheese, sauce,

10:06

pickles, the works on a pretzel

10:08

bun, and and

10:10

and so partly because time

10:12

is being what they are in the world, everybody

10:15

really wants comfort they do. You find

10:17

that's true in your work, in my

10:19

work, it may not make them feel good right

10:21

after, but it makes them feel good while they're doing it.

10:23

And you can sort of like get a little bit of solace from

10:26

today's news. And high end

10:28

Korean has taken off, and

10:30

um, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting

10:32

a really good pizza place. There are so many people

10:35

coming from Naples to have an

10:37

opening here as well as in Naples. High

10:39

end pizza high end pizza. But there's also slices,

10:42

not ninety nine cent slices, but three dollar and

10:44

fifty cent slices are making a

10:46

comeback. So there are some really fantastic

10:48

places where you know, you can go get

10:51

a slice, and there's a cocktail bar there too, like

10:53

Scars Pizza on Orchard Streets.

10:56

It's like where you would go after school to have a

10:58

slice with your friends. So there's a lot

11:00

of that going on too, and there are a lot of people doing

11:02

you know, poly g who's who has a really

11:05

great pizza restaurant in Greenpoint. But

11:09

um he um, he just opened a

11:12

slice place that's been long awaited and

11:14

much heralded in the Slice world. Slice

11:16

World, It's true. Man, there's a magazine called

11:19

Slice World. Don't don't

11:21

laugh. There is, there's the website

11:23

Slice Adam who ran it, and then there's

11:25

Scott who does these pizza tours there.

11:28

You know, there's it's a singular focus. But man,

11:30

they know what they're doing. There's nothing like a

11:32

good slice, a friend, it's

11:34

a hot meal. Why you eat pizza.

11:37

It's a hot meal, and it's filling, and it's good

11:39

vegetables, dairy,

11:41

protein, protein, brand all

11:43

the food groups, that's right, all the old fashioned

11:46

food groups. But yes, I know

11:48

what was You know we were gonna

11:50

say, go ahead, go ahead, you go. Well, it's

11:52

gonna just say that. I think trends, you know, they

11:54

go also with the way the planet goes. I mean, now

11:56

everything is becoming about sustainability.

11:59

And so there's a um, a sushi

12:01

restaurant. It's the only sushi restaurant in New York

12:03

that does sustainable sushi. Um

12:06

And I'm forgetting what street it's on, but

12:08

they do in Omaka, sees you sit at the counter

12:10

and you you know they'll still present to you what you

12:12

know, the chef feels is good that day and what what

12:15

you know what he's going to serve? No,

12:18

just a sushi master. And

12:21

there are things now like you know there's crowd cow

12:24

you can there's literally

12:26

crowd cow funding. What does that mean. One of

12:28

the people started was a guy who started Urban

12:30

Daddy, which is a restaurant site people off

12:32

and go to and um. It's so

12:34

that he realized that people were getting meat

12:37

from farms, but not everybody can like buy a whole

12:39

cow and store it and all of that. So

12:41

you can participate with like fifty

12:43

people and by the section of cow

12:45

you want from a farmer, then you

12:48

know where the meats from, you know what you're getting.

12:50

You're supporting small farms.

12:54

It's right, which is so much nicer because

12:56

you don't feel forced to go back there again and

13:00

food waste. Someone like Dan Barber, who has

13:02

Blue Hill and Stone Barns in

13:04

in Terrytown. A couple of

13:06

years ago, he did what he was calling garbage

13:08

dinners and taking the parts of

13:10

vegetables and meat that everyone chucks because

13:12

it's like, that's not the pretty part. And um,

13:14

you know, so we don't need the stems, so the broccoli, or

13:16

we don't need the you know. And here,

13:19

oh well, I mean if you're a chef and a chef

13:21

and you're chopping up the broccoli and you just take the florets

13:24

and that's part that you're going to beg yes,

13:27

exactly, and so now these dinners. So all

13:29

these chefs came and they created dinners only

13:31

out of the parts that weren't pretty rescued

13:34

fruit, and it was fantastic.

13:36

You know. The idea now I think for now

13:39

and forever is zero waste

13:41

and we can't afford it as as a planet.

13:43

In beef production is one

13:46

of the two three culprits that's clappering exactly

13:48

forest and they're cutting everything down to grays

13:51

beef cattle. But describe

13:53

your childhood and food in your

13:55

childhood, your family, your home, what was it like. Um,

13:58

we always had cousins and other people. Every one would

14:00

come to our house, so we had the house where

14:02

people would crash.

14:04

He was a businessman and um,

14:07

coming from a culturally Jewish household,

14:09

not a religious Jewish household, it

14:11

was really about food. It's Italians, and I think

14:14

Jews are very food focused, and

14:16

so everyone cooked. And my

14:19

sister and left when I

14:21

was still young. She got out of there, she

14:24

ran, but the only thing she could make when she left were Swedish

14:26

meat balls. Um. I remember

14:28

my brother went away to college and he came back and

14:30

he was like, I have to make my begea mill sauce

14:33

for you, and um, you know, and he was

14:35

so excited about it. And my mother always

14:38

if you told my mother you like something, she wouldn't

14:40

make it again. But if you told her, you know,

14:42

you didn't, she sort of experiment further. I don't

14:44

I don't don't really know why, but and

14:46

you know, I was really indulged. My mother would make me something

14:49

else if I didn't like what she was making. And that's

14:51

probably why I was picking too, because I got what I wanted.

14:54

But she would make things like banana meat loaf.

14:56

Um. It

14:58

was like no, please, please, don't to do that again. But

15:01

she also made something that we all called slop. It

15:03

remains. It was remains essentially, and

15:05

she put all together and we all loved it. And

15:07

we didn't fte friends over and say we're having sloped

15:09

tonight if you want to come for dinner, that

15:13

doesn't um

15:16

when you get out of the house, when you leave

15:18

home, and where do you go to school? In Madison,

15:21

Wisconsin? Because you wanted to be a radical?

15:23

I want to be radical and um. And

15:25

also because there was a lighting professor

15:27

who taught there who has since departed

15:30

the planet, but he was really well known.

15:32

He lit all over the world, but he did things like the

15:34

ballet and the opera and at the mad And you

15:36

knew then that's what you wanted to do. Oh yeah, because I always

15:38

sort of related to light, even as

15:40

a child. I understood light and shadow. So

15:43

he was teaching there and I wanted to study

15:45

with him. And so you're at

15:47

Wisconsin for four years. You go four years and graduate?

15:51

Yeah, you graduates, says

15:53

in that papacy. It's my resumecy.

15:56

My parents are did I can tell the truth? Wait

15:58

wait, Elizabeth Warren ain't runing

16:00

for president. You're

16:03

on your own. And I know that things changed for me significantly

16:05

in terms of food, But I think of these

16:08

milestones. I think of these benchmarks in terms

16:11

of my relationship to food and

16:13

how that changes over the years. And some very significant

16:15

things. And the first turn

16:17

of the dial is leaving my

16:19

home and going to school, where all of a sudden,

16:22

you know, what I eat is up

16:24

to me. What I'm going to eat I

16:26

decide because when I was back home as a

16:29

child, my mother would cooked dinner. If she had six

16:31

kids. My family had no money. My mother would

16:33

make roasted chickens and vegetables in a salad.

16:35

Everybody ate. Well, there's a lot of other things we didn't

16:37

have, but everybody had clothes and food my

16:40

my father's insistence. And

16:42

I go to college, what I'm gonna eat is up to me? And

16:45

uh. There was a place of years ago in Washington

16:47

and Georgetown on the Canal called the Foundry.

16:50

It's interesting how the first thing I did

16:52

was get a job as a way to where I could eat, because

16:56

you get a shift meal. But I think unconsciously

16:58

I put myself at these things. In these

17:00

jobs, I did student activities and things where

17:03

there was food being served, and I

17:05

could eat things that I couldn't afford to pay for because

17:07

I was on a meal plan. Fantastic,

17:09

yea. But for you, how did you eat

17:11

when you were in college. I do remember

17:14

the first night that I was there walking

17:16

through the town at night, thinking I

17:18

can go anywhere, I can do anything. We can

17:20

I can go get something to eat, I mean something cheap

17:22

and obviously and all that. But everyone

17:25

was in the same boat, so you were together, um

17:27

and it was really exciting. But

17:30

being in Wisconsin, it was a lot of cheese

17:32

and that wasn't good. You

17:34

know. In the end, of

17:38

course, all that dairy was time well

17:40

spent. If Deborah Cletter gets a

17:42

client seeking the best cheese in

17:45

Wisconsin, a good

17:47

way for you to spend time is in the Here's

17:49

the Thing archive. If all the

17:51

food talk is driving you to the fridge,

17:54

Dr Robert Lustig will put a damper

17:56

on that. That's called addiction. We

17:59

know how that works for all of these other drugs

18:01

of abuse. Turns out sugar does

18:03

the same same thing. It's the same as cocaine.

18:06

The difference is that for cocaine you

18:08

gotta go find it, whereas for sugar

18:10

we have what we call system saturation. It's

18:13

everywhere, you can't escape it. The

18:15

charming, if alarming Doctor Robert

18:18

Lustig can be found anytime

18:20

with the rest of our past interviews and Here's

18:22

the Thing dot org coming

18:25

up New York's foremost restaurant

18:28

recommender, Deborah Cletter of

18:30

e quest NYC, makes

18:32

her case against Yelp and

18:35

trip Advisor. This

18:49

is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to

18:51

here's the thing now more

18:54

With Deborah Clutter of eat quest

18:56

NYC. She caters

18:58

to her clients when and crazy

19:00

things, but has a clear sense of what

19:03

any restaurant needs to be great.

19:06

What differentiates good and bad is conviviality.

19:08

If a restaurant wants you to be there, if they're

19:11

happy to make you the food and they want you to have

19:13

a good time, it's sublime. It's

19:15

just this wonderful experience. And you know

19:17

that they're really happy for you to be eating their

19:19

food, so you're really happy to be dining

19:21

there. I've developed

19:23

a pretty keen sense of

19:26

when I'm around the person who

19:29

I know they derive great pleasure

19:31

from preparing food and serving food.

19:33

They love to see people eat their food, and there's

19:35

a kind of a glow they have. There's a kind of an incandescence

19:38

thing. And so the thing for me now

19:40

is that because I'm trying

19:42

so much now to manage food

19:45

in my life, and I'm wondering do you factor

19:47

that into your recommendations with people? Do they ever

19:49

say to you, I need healthy food, are going to be

19:51

very careful. You know, it's interesting that

19:54

hasn't come up as much as one would think. But

19:56

I think the movement now is like the

19:58

whole paleo thing, and so there are people

20:01

eating like dachis and broths and consummes

20:03

that the your fish is poached in and all that.

20:06

But I think that there's comfort

20:08

and there's health, and those two. You know, it's

20:10

diametrically opposed, and there are people who

20:13

leaned one way and lean the up. So most of the people

20:15

that are engaging your service, they don't they

20:17

don't bother with that. They're there to go blow it out or just

20:19

enjoy it. I mean, because it really doesn't have to

20:21

be about something special. It just has

20:23

to be about something good or comfortable

20:26

for their economic bracket or you

20:28

know, the kind of atmosphere they want. I mean, it starts.

20:31

You know, I started doing this years ago because I would

20:33

plan people's evenings for them. I just

20:35

got into like I knew somebody, this intern working

20:37

at some in an office that a friend

20:39

of mine was running, and he wanted to propose

20:42

to his girlfriend. So another friend

20:44

and I just we court. We we

20:46

coordinated the whole evening. We said where you're going to

20:48

go meet for drinks, where you're going to actually have

20:50

dinner, where you're going to propose to her, what table

20:52

you're going to sit at, how that's all going to go down.

20:54

And we did the whole evening for him, and then we started doing

20:56

that for other people. She ultimately moved

20:58

to Italy with her family. UM, so

21:01

I, you know, kind of stopped that and just kept doing

21:03

what I was doing. But it was always in

21:05

the back of my mind. And when you know, the recession

21:08

happened and people weren't doing so much garden lighting,

21:10

and um, I wasn't really doing theater.

21:12

I thought, okay, food, Um

21:15

this is you know, everyone always asked me where to

21:17

go, and I always like knowing where to go,

21:19

and I'm always intrigued by something, and you know,

21:21

I just sort of I'm like a

21:23

steward of um you know, of

21:25

information. I just you know, it's

21:27

out there and other people can find it too. It's

21:30

just that I'm obsessed with

21:32

it. Cook. Yeah, I do,

21:34

do I do. I used to

21:36

go really sort of high end fancy. You

21:38

know, you're well,

21:40

my signature dishes my shrimp risotto, but

21:42

that's not really dazzling wild

21:45

Argentinian shrimp, but it's it's more

21:47

about how you cook it. And I will not reveal

21:50

the secret, but um, I don't even tell

21:52

other people that there's a few

21:54

little key things in it that make it what it is. And

21:56

I honestly think it's the best trimp risotto I've ever

21:58

had. I like rock shrimps. I went

22:00

to a place once on vacation down there in North

22:02

Carolina and I thought, oh my god, I mean

22:04

this was shrimp they caught right there fresh and it

22:06

was just mean a tasted like something. Yes, when

22:09

when you can really taste the food, that makes

22:11

such a difference. It's like carrots from the farmer's

22:13

market actually taste like carrots, not a bag

22:15

of what's called baby carrots but are just

22:17

you know, cut up bigger carrots in a supermarket

22:20

don't taste like carrots. They might be filling,

22:23

and you know, you can chew them and you can slice them

22:25

and put them in things, but when you taste the carrot

22:27

and you really get the carrot taste, it's

22:30

remarkable and you know, and I think

22:32

that's part of people want to know where their food is coming

22:34

from now. They want to know what they're eating,

22:36

so, you know, and that's why I think like the

22:38

crowd. But you can

22:40

find that at less expensive places as

22:43

well as more expensive places. It's all out

22:45

there. When you go to a restaurant, what's the

22:47

first thing you look for, it's the whole nison

22:49

send. Are people enjoying it? I mean,

22:51

do you do? You feel that sort of buzz and you

22:53

smell it and it smells really good, and it's

22:56

it's almost like a sixth sense that you walk in somewhere

22:58

and you feel like this is where I'm supposed to be.

23:01

I get it. I think this is going to be good. When

23:03

you when people are enjoying their food, there's just

23:05

that buzz, there's there's your

23:07

You know that you've come into a place where it's

23:09

not about pretension, it's not about um.

23:12

You know, the masquerade of this place is supposed

23:14

to be good, so I'm supposed to like it. It's

23:16

really like people are enjoying their food here.

23:19

The waiters seem to be enjoying giving

23:21

it to you. The cooks are happy making it for

23:23

you. You're happy to be there eating it, and

23:26

that really is what it is. It really doesn't, you

23:28

know, there's not it's not. I I personally

23:30

love a neighborhood feel. I

23:32

love you know, old world. I love

23:34

a dive. But when I'm looking for

23:37

clients and um, you know, and I'm when

23:39

I'm going out to eat it and checking all these places

23:41

out, I'm looking for things that might appeal

23:43

to all kinds of people. I'm not just looking that.

23:47

That's my test. So it's not just about

23:49

me, it's about what that is. So people ask

23:51

me favorites and I don't. I generally

23:53

don't reveal them because it's not about me. But

23:56

you're going to reveal them to me, and temail

24:00

um described for me. Give me a high end and a low

24:02

end of just a meal. You remember

24:04

a place, you remember you went there, and those all

24:08

right? All perfect? Can

24:11

it be out of the country, It can be anywhere you desire.

24:13

Okay. One of my most favorite

24:15

places in the whole world is Palazaccio's,

24:18

which is an Umbria and it's outside

24:20

of Spoletto, and it's a family run

24:22

restaurant, and you know, my heart

24:24

just sings whenever I think about it and

24:26

the you know, the idea of getting back there.

24:29

And one of the most amazing things that they make

24:31

is this artichoke ravioli and

24:33

it's and all you know, it takes them half

24:35

a day to make it. And you know, one of the things

24:38

I think people want to go out to eat for is for

24:40

something that they can't make at home or they won't make

24:42

it home, because it's just two times et

24:44

someone's made an effort. And so when they make the artichoke

24:47

ravili, not only do they have to make the fresh pasta

24:49

and make the actual ravioli and all of that, but they

24:51

cook the artichoke. They take

24:53

each leaf off, they scrape all the little

24:56

bits of what you know, the artichook meat off

24:58

of each leaf, make a like make

25:01

a paste out of it exactly. And

25:03

the heart of the artichoke is what goes

25:05

into each violi, but the pace goes

25:07

into the sauce and um.

25:10

And so when you eat,

25:12

it's just heaven. It's heaven. There's just

25:14

there's nothing else like it that just it melts

25:17

in your mouth. It's just extraordinary.

25:19

And it's called palazaccios

25:22

and it's on the via Flaminia outside of Swoletto

25:26

and family run helicopter

25:32

than that UM

25:34

and then they're definitely meals in New York and a

25:36

place like UM for Chinese food,

25:39

the Little Pepper Um, which

25:42

is well known now. I happened to find

25:44

it the first night they opened in a little basement

25:46

in Flushing, because I was looking for a

25:48

different restaurant that had moved, and so

25:51

I was with some friends. We thought, this kind

25:53

of smells good and it's just funky. Let's check

25:55

it out. And it was sublime. And then

25:57

I started, like, you know, getting friends to go there

25:59

all the time, and I would go there always. And now they've

26:01

moved and they have a place on in

26:03

College Point and they bought the building, so

26:06

it's a slightly more upscale UM.

26:09

But nothing in there is bad

26:11

and I feel at home when I go there. I feel at

26:13

home with the food. I know the dishes, I have my

26:16

favorites. I order way too much and

26:18

UM. And I think of you for this because

26:21

because one of my favorite things about dining with

26:23

you is that you know, we can go to a

26:25

restaurant and you'll say, you know, I'll have the chicken, you

26:27

have the steak or you know, and also I'll steak or something

26:29

like that. But then if you're if

26:32

my eye wanders over anywhere in the

26:34

menu, you say, what are you looking at? Let's get it. I

26:36

learned that from Michael Blue, my former agent. I remember

26:39

that Blue would say, I say, I can't make up my mind

26:41

the salmon or the chicken. He goes, get both. I

26:44

can't make up my mind the soul or the pasta. Get

26:46

both. What do we care? What do you care?

26:49

It's great because you and I would end up with a table filled

26:51

with like several entrees, appetizers, sides.

26:54

Um, you know, let's get the pizza, Let's

26:56

also have the pasta, Let's also have this, and

26:59

you know, and that's what I So that's kind of how

27:01

I think sometimes, Like I don't understand when people

27:04

limit me and they say things like I think we've ordered

27:06

enough, Like

27:09

I don't think we have no, No,

27:12

you don't get it. I'm

27:14

the one that determines when we've had enough. Do

27:18

you remember when we had dinner at an unnamed

27:20

restaurant that's very popular. Um, you

27:22

had a group of like ten people and we were all at the restaurant

27:25

and the waiter came over and he was telling

27:27

us about the salmon. And he said, the salmon

27:29

was wrapped in Kashmir, you know, every night

27:31

of its life, and it was they read

27:33

a good night moon before it went to sleep. And

27:36

I went to Princeton. It was caressed. They

27:39

carried it here across the country from the Pacific

27:41

Northwest. And you said, I'd rather

27:43

get a piece of trout from a guy named Joe

27:45

driving the truck and flings it in through the door.

27:50

That that that whole boutique thing with food. I

27:52

mean, listen, I want Kobe beef

27:55

when I first first heard about that, I mean everything about

27:57

handling food. Uh. And what about

28:00

the low end? What's the place you know? Well a little?

28:02

I mean, you know, I hesitate to call them low, but

28:04

I mean a place like Eisenberg's. Do you

28:06

know on Fifth Avenue? You know

28:08

I love their tuna sandwich. I mean they

28:10

do. I

28:13

never thought you'd say that. I've been there. It's

28:15

around the corner for my physical therapist. Oh do

28:17

you get the Reuben. I go there and have an egg

28:20

salad sandwich. You can get a half egg salad,

28:22

half tuna, and I'm going to tuna

28:25

really good. Tuna. I won't share with you the

28:27

he doesn't my number one, which I call bachelor's

28:29

surprise, which is my tuna salad

28:31

sandwich. I make a tuna sala

28:33

said. People have wept when they have my tuna.

28:35

I'm gonna need to try it. If you're not going to do

28:38

I'll take off Mike and involves some very

28:40

simple I love tuna fish. It's tuna

28:43

fish

28:50

European style. Well, I'll tell you my favorite

28:53

tuna is Rio Mara,

28:55

and they don't export their Rio Marian

28:57

extra virgin olive oil to America. You

29:00

can only get in Italy, and you can ask any

29:02

friend. I have cases of it. We get we get

29:04

by the one from my wife. I get it from a Spanish grocery store.

29:07

I used to eat fish every now and then I get sick of fish.

29:09

But for all those concerns about

29:12

age and health and everything, you always remember

29:14

my brother and I getting a quart of

29:16

fried rice from the local Chinese place

29:18

take out and sitting on the curb

29:21

in the parking lot. They didn't have any seating. It was take out.

29:23

Only was a counter and we would sit down

29:26

and we'd eat. It was like the perfect mix of the shrimp

29:28

and the egg and the scallions in this and we'd

29:30

sit there and eat. It was like we we might as well

29:32

have had a table at Lutess. It

29:35

was like the it with the greatest meal I've ever had

29:37

in my life, because you're so craving

29:40

that, and you're so jonesing for that, and you

29:42

don't feel that anymore. You don't have a craving for

29:44

something that crave now is the room. Food

29:47

is not my enemy. Food is something I have

29:49

to wrestle with. But the

29:51

common thread of food

29:54

is just I don't want to get too sappy

29:56

here, but like who you're with, what's the

29:58

vibe? You know? I

30:00

I mean sharing food makes you part of a larger

30:02

hole. And all the work that now people are

30:04

doing with you know, like Jos Andreas and

30:06

and doing all the world

30:08

Central Kitchen and goings.

30:11

Who don't know UM Chef Restaurant Tour,

30:14

UM Washington, New York, l

30:16

A. And he's going to every

30:18

disaster and feeding people. So he was in

30:20

Puerto Rico and he has fed so many

30:23

people and got people cooking there and got people

30:25

hot meals and really good meals. And

30:27

the photographs are remember of like Paia pants

30:30

that were as big as this desk, which people can't see,

30:32

but it's big and

30:35

exactly and it was just extraordinary. And

30:37

so he's gone and organized for every disaster,

30:39

and all kinds of people are doing that. There's such a humanitarian

30:42

aspect now to food. There

30:44

are a lot of refugee dinners. They're there

30:46

are different groups that are either catering

30:49

um, so they take people who have been displaced,

30:51

and people are now like cooking and you can actually

30:53

hire a caterer where people who

30:55

were you know, exiled for whatever reason

30:58

and are here are cooking for you, which

31:00

is fantastic because it brings them

31:02

a sense of home and it brings you, um,

31:05

you know, some really great meal that you didn't

31:07

get to have before. But it's the idea

31:09

of just sharing food and sharing somebody's heritage

31:12

and culture and and I think, you

31:14

know, those of us who are on you

31:16

know, on the good side of humanity

31:18

are trying to to connect

31:20

with that and to share that. You know.

31:23

I asked the driver, you guys were so nice to send

31:25

me a car. And I asked the driver on the way what he

31:27

looks for in a restaurant, and he said,

31:29

oh, he said, I go to Queens

31:31

in Brooklyn and I eat Jamaican

31:33

food. And I said, because it's home, and

31:36

he said yes. The connection for people

31:38

is, you know what makes them feel at

31:40

home, regardless of whether that home

31:42

was last year or childhood. Restaurant

31:46

reviewers, how is that change has

31:48

a change? Who do you trust? Now? Who do you?

31:51

I do like? I like the New Yorker, I

31:53

like Hannah Goldfield and

31:55

UM and I like

31:57

UM. I don't want to dispat

32:00

or just do what I

32:02

do. Would you just name the ones you like? Well?

32:04

But the thing is, I like some of what some

32:06

people say. Do you do dislike Wells? What

32:08

he wants? I don't dislike Wells, but I don't agree

32:11

with everything that he says. But I think I

32:13

do think he's a very good reviewer. And I, you know,

32:15

I clearly go to the Times every Wednesday

32:17

to see what um, you know, what

32:19

what he has said. But I trust

32:21

people that I know more than I trust reviewers

32:23

that are out there. UM And I think

32:25

you know, you look at something like trip Advisor

32:28

or Yelp, where so many people go

32:30

to and as as a friend of mine pointed

32:32

out to me, she was going to chang My in Thailand

32:35

for going to live there for a few months. And

32:37

she said, well, I thought i'd look a trip Advisor and

32:39

I would see, like what restaurants they were recommending,

32:41

and she said the top rated number one restaurant

32:44

in chang My was a text Mex place,

32:47

and I thought, no, thanks, I don't need to

32:49

do that so people find you

32:51

know, I guess all the people who go to Yelp or

32:53

trip Advisor, if you find someone

32:55

you like, I suppose you know that would mean

32:57

something I I don't. I don't ever look

33:00

at anything like that. I look at Yelps

33:02

sometimes for addresses or do they take

33:04

credit cards or you know, sort of hardcore information.

33:06

But I noticed a review said the best sushi

33:09

in New York, so I thought, okay, you know,

33:11

I have to see I'll buy. And

33:13

the person just said, this is the best sushi I've ever

33:15

had. Of course I've never had sushi before, and

33:17

I thought, like a ha, And to me, that sums up

33:20

like that kind of local reviews. And

33:22

you know, if it works for you, great. But what

33:24

I do is I try and glean what somebody wants,

33:26

and I keep a personal file on them or even

33:28

if it's just a one time thing. I get,

33:31

you know, by a listening answers from them

33:33

on on my questions, I get what

33:35

it is that they're looking for. We're

33:38

interesting towards my last question, which is my

33:40

dear friend Ronnie Dobson. I think you met who

33:42

spent a good part of his youth. Uh,

33:45

you know, studied literature at Brooklyn College

33:47

and uh as a very beautiful

33:50

writer and one of the great uh

33:53

minds I've ever known in my life. And this is amazing

33:55

guy. And took a couple of years in different times of

33:57

his life to travel extensively. One an a

34:00

Frica, when in Mexico, and when he's in Africa, he's

34:02

and he really does talk

34:05

his version I mean, I'm really not exaggerating

34:07

his version of like Woody Allen. He's he's the Jewish

34:10

kid from Brooklyn and he's totally

34:12

what he Alan's when you talked to him, he's like

34:14

he'd be like on a hiking

34:16

across Africa with a friend and they would

34:18

come upon a boma and people would be cooking

34:21

something and uh, and he really really

34:23

ate everything. I mean, he ate anything.

34:26

If if human beings are standing over

34:28

a simmering pot and it could

34:30

do or impala, it

34:32

didn't matter. Whatever they're cooking. And there's some

34:34

potatoes and carrots looked in there. He was

34:36

down. He would have a big steam and bowl of whatever and he

34:39

ate everything to me. That's like,

34:41

you know, I like if if you guys got any you

34:43

know, rice cakes and peanut butter like.

34:48

But there's those things I can't eat. There's just things

34:51

I can't know the things that you can't eat. There are definitely

34:53

things like I I you know, I don't want things like

34:55

brains and stuff. There's this really fantastic

34:57

place um um called on

34:59

al is Kebob Cafe that's been there for a long

35:01

time on Steinway Street in Astoria, and

35:03

Ali is this great man. There's no kitchen really, there's

35:06

like a hot plate and um and he creates

35:08

these incredible meals. He just comes

35:10

over to you and he's like, what do you feel like today? And you

35:12

kind of tell them. But there are things like the brain

35:14

and stuff like if it comes to the table, I need to put

35:17

up a little wall so that I can't even look

35:19

at it because the brain looks like rain. Before

35:21

Frank Booney, before Pete Wells and everything. The

35:23

New York Times would write a restaurant review, and maybe

35:25

a handful of times a year they would go to an

35:27

outer borough. Yeah,

35:29

if at all Brooklyn

35:31

was where you went to buy a gun. No,

35:33

it's true. They will have personal bodyguards out

35:35

there. They don't need a gun. Right in that

35:37

way that I'm describing, Ronnie, were you a fan of Bourdain?

35:40

Oh god, yes you were. Yes, him, and

35:42

and you know and Jonathan Golden from l A and

35:45

um and people who who it's

35:47

about people and culture and you

35:50

know, and that that sort of energy

35:52

and I just appreciate that so much, about what

35:54

he did for the world and going off to

35:56

these places and just saying like here there's

35:59

this nobody a win, there's this culture that

36:01

you can devour. The cultural thing was

36:03

was riveting. It was riveting. And he also

36:05

makes it exciting because when you travel and you you

36:07

know, my favorite thing is if you tell

36:09

me something's hard to find or hard to get,

36:12

um rare, I want it. And

36:15

you know, I will drag somebody through a jungle

36:17

in Indonesia because there's a fish

36:19

place on the beach called Neoman's and

36:21

everyone loves the fish there. It was effortful.

36:24

But then you get to this little stand with

36:27

you know, like two tables and

36:29

and it's a Neoman's fish because Neoman

36:31

is one of the popular names there, and

36:34

um, and the fish was incredible.

36:36

It's it was just extraordinary, you know.

36:38

And he's just grilling it on an open fire and it's

36:41

as simple as it can be. But it's fresh

36:43

and it's perfectly cooked. And you

36:45

know, that's what I like about about Bourdain too,

36:48

is that you just sort of feel like you hunted

36:50

for something that now I want to find.

36:53

You've led me somewhere. You've led me somewhere. Exactly

36:55

if you had a single serving of one thing,

36:58

what would the last meal b among

37:01

many, what would it be read bread

37:04

that really crusty on the outside, soft

37:06

on the inside, where you can you

37:09

buy it in the store and it's almost

37:11

gone by the time you get home. You kind

37:13

of have to get to so you have the one that you need to

37:15

travel later. Exactly, you

37:18

need to travel pack because you just keep breaking off

37:20

another piece and if you can have

37:22

butter on it, you know, fantastic or whatever

37:24

your fantasy. But um, yeah,

37:27

well then't end up dying anyways.

37:31

Pile on that. But I would be corn in the coup,

37:34

would it? I crave when we

37:36

get to that August, that September Labor

37:39

Day, the New Jersey Silver Queen, all

37:42

those legendary late summer corn with lots

37:44

of sugar corn on the cob. But I

37:46

don't put butter on corn. And I don't

37:48

know because the corn is so when you get

37:50

a great piece of corn, think you're just

37:52

tasting my butter. When I have corn

37:54

in the cup, I have about six pieces of it, and

37:57

so I have every other one test butter on. I'll

37:59

do old butter. It's a palate cleanser, and

38:01

then I do the butter, and

38:04

then I have the little sell Bay, the

38:07

one with Yeah,

38:11

that's perfect, That's exactly

38:13

right. Thank you so much for doing this with me.

38:15

Well thanks, it's fun to talk food

38:18

with a friend. Um, I I

38:20

tend to I never tested well, so I'm

38:22

not good on on on questions

38:24

on the spot. I always have to think, like, what

38:27

what are you asking me? Why are you asking me? Well?

38:29

What I love about what you do? I'm

38:31

never going to say that wells and people who write for the

38:33

Times are compromised in anyway. But there's a lot writing

38:36

on what they do. I went with Frank

38:38

Bruney. Uh, Maureen

38:40

Down said you want to come with me and Frank and another

38:42

person to go to de Batali's

38:45

Del Posto when I had just opened

38:47

up, and we went with Bruney and it was so

38:49

eye opening to me, and Frank kind

38:51

of took me through like the protocols

38:53

and when he goes in and we were sitting

38:55

there was really really really fascinating.

38:57

But that's you know, he was the restaurant critic for The Times.

39:00

Is a whole other thing going on. You was as

39:02

much more. I'm a conduit, you

39:05

know. I'm sort of like the conduit

39:07

to you and a meal that I think you might really

39:09

enjoy. I'm not saying that you

39:11

know that this is right for everybody. I'm not

39:13

sort of declaring that this restaurant's gonna last.

39:15

For this restaurant's not gonna last. I just really

39:18

like to think about I love reading menus,

39:20

I love thinking about food, and

39:22

there are so many good things to have. I mean, it's

39:24

just something that I want to share more

39:27

than it's about a criticism or

39:29

an evaluation of

39:31

a whole place, And I just want to share

39:33

it I feel like I have this great dumpling,

39:35

you have to have it too. I have this pancake, you

39:37

have to have it too. And it's sublime.

39:42

That was my old friend Deborah Clatter

39:45

of Eat Quest NYC. She

39:47

can source you a sturgeon and find

39:50

you a food tour, but it's really all

39:52

about that ineffable match between

39:54

human and table. This

39:56

is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to

39:59

here's the thing

40:07

to be

40:13

f