0:00

This

0:00

is hidden brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.

0:03

When Harry Rees was in middle school,

0:06

he cared what his classmates thought of him.

0:09

Now, all middle schoolers want to fit in

0:11

with their peers. But Harry,

0:14

he was next level.

0:16

I was somewhat insecure as an

0:18

adolescent, very unsure of

0:21

my standing within the social group

0:23

that I lived in, and

0:26

I would keep daily charts of

0:28

how I was doing and who

0:30

I connected with and who I did not connect

0:32

with.

0:36

Harry's charts did more than track

0:38

who sat next to him at lunch, or

0:40

who joked around with him in the hallway. No.

0:43

This is actually the more embarrassing

0:45

than that. These were actually

0:47

graphs where I would rate on a

0:49

ten point scale how I

0:51

had done with various people on that

0:53

day. So if I thought that

0:56

a certain person had really liked me on

0:58

that day, you know, they would get a nine.

1:00

And if I thought I'd really come across

1:02

as an idiot with another person, that might

1:04

be a two or a three. and

1:06

I would have these charts over time where

1:09

the lines would go up and down. It

1:11

was a painful way to go through middle school.

1:14

but it did come with an upside. Years

1:16

later, Harry

1:17

learned there were people who kept

1:19

such charts

1:20

professionally. I discovered,

1:23

oh my god, there are people who actually make a

1:25

life of studying this stuff. And

1:28

it just instantly grabbed me

1:30

because it was something that I'd always been

1:32

doing.

1:34

Harry went on to become a social psychologist, and

1:36

he discovered that if you keep meticulous

1:39

charts, If you track the ups

1:41

and downs of relationships like an insecure

1:43

middle schooler, you can actually discover

1:45

really interesting things about the

1:47

ebb and flow of human relationships.

1:52

This week on Hidden Brain, we conclude

1:55

our relationships two point o series.

1:57

with a look and a secret ingredient that

1:59

makes some relationships thrive and

2:02

others falter.

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state

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law.

3:06

Many

3:06

of us know what it's like to meet a soul mate

3:09

or kindred spirit at work. We

3:11

know what it feels like to be inspired by

3:13

a politician or a business leader. But

3:15

what exactly prompts us to feel this

3:18

deep connection with some people, but

3:20

not with others? Is it having

3:22

a shared goal?

3:23

the intangibles of chemistry?

3:25

What does it have to do with temperament and

3:27

personality? It turns

3:29

out that beneath the feeling of being

3:31

close to someone,

3:33

is a powerful psychological mechanism.

3:35

At the University of Rochester, psychologist

3:38

Harry Rees has studied this core

3:41

ingredient of successful relationships. Harry

3:44

Reese, welcome to Hidden Bray.

3:46

Glad to be here. I

3:47

want to start by spending some time talking

3:49

about a relationship in your own life, Harry.

3:51

I think it speaks to some of the research insights

3:54

you have developed over the years. I understand

3:56

you grew up in a very tight knit community

3:59

you got married very young to a woman who

4:01

was also from that same community. What

4:03

was that relationship like when you first got

4:05

married?

4:06

you know, we grew up in a

4:08

German Jewish community in the

4:11

upper parts of Manhattan. And

4:14

the community was very insular, it was very

4:16

warm and connected, but there was

4:18

also a sense that you would stay in

4:20

that community when you got

4:23

older, when you got married, and began

4:25

to raise children on your own.

4:27

And so I had the expectation

4:30

that I would find a partner in in

4:32

that group and in fact I did.

4:34

I met my first wife when I was

4:36

nineteen, she came from

4:38

the same social community

4:41

that I came from. And

4:43

we started dating largely

4:46

because it was expected

4:48

that you would start dating at that age.

4:50

All of my friends were doing it. All of

4:52

my cousins were doing it. And so

4:54

I did it. Mhmm. And at

4:57

the age of twenty one, we

4:59

decided to get married. It was literally

5:01

the exact day I graduated from college.

5:04

Wow. that was the

5:06

age in which all of our parents

5:08

had gotten married, you know, in the old

5:10

country. So that

5:13

was what was expected.

5:14

At a certain point in your early adulthood,

5:17

I think this was around the time you were in graduate

5:19

school. You got involved in what were

5:21

known at the time as an counter groups or encounter

5:23

sessions. For people who aren't familiar with

5:25

that term today, can you describe what they were,

5:27

Harry?

5:28

Yes. Encounter groups were very

5:30

popular in the late nineteen sixties

5:33

and nineteen seventies. They

5:35

were laboratories in which

5:37

people could be completely open

5:39

and honest, talk about

5:41

what they authentically felt,

5:43

what their goals and and needs

5:45

were. and get honest feedback

5:47

from other people about how

5:49

they were coming across to them -- Mhmm. --

5:52

because there's so much of our natural

5:54

social interaction that

5:56

involves being polite,

5:58

not really talking about what you're thinking and

6:00

feeling. And the ground rules of these

6:02

encounter groups were to be

6:04

open and honest in everything

6:07

that you said and did.

6:08

And did you say things in this

6:10

group that you hadn't said four, did you reveal

6:12

parts of yourself that you hadn't revealed to

6:14

other people in your in your family

6:16

growing up? What's your wife?

6:18

Yes. I began to talk about

6:21

how I saw my life, how I saw

6:23

the community I came from, but

6:25

also where I wanted to

6:27

go with my life, what I wanted

6:29

to accomplish professionally but

6:31

also personally. And

6:33

because I was in graduate school

6:36

at NYU at the time, which was

6:38

in Greenwich Village, which of course

6:40

was a very lively

6:42

contemporary culture at the time.

6:45

and was beginning

6:47

to experience the idea that

6:49

the world I grew up in was

6:52

not the world that I wanted to live my life in,

6:54

but this was not something that I felt that I

6:56

could talk about with my family or for

6:58

that matter with my wife. and

7:00

I began to talk about it

7:02

in the context of the group and

7:05

literally was blown away by

7:07

the feedback that I got from other people.

7:10

So you were having these sessions in these encounter

7:13

groups and learning perhaps parts of yourself,

7:15

learning things about yourself that you hadn't known

7:17

before. Were you able to bring

7:19

this back to your marriage? Were you able to

7:21

talk with your wife about what was going on? Did

7:23

you have conversations about it? And I'm wondering

7:25

if so, what they would like?

7:27

Well, that was the problem. When I would

7:29

begin to talk about these things, There

7:32

was no recognition by my wife at

7:34

all about what I was talking about.

7:36

This was very contrary to

7:39

what she knew about, what she

7:41

had experienced, and there

7:44

was just no connection there

7:46

at all. And so our

7:48

relationship really

7:50

became a very distant relationship.

7:52

It was not hostile. She was not

7:55

mean about it in any way. She

7:57

simply couldn't connect with it.

7:59

And

7:59

in a very real sense, I was moving

8:02

in a different direction and

8:04

that was a direction that she couldn't come

8:06

along.

8:07

So there's obviously some tension

8:10

here between the the kind of person you were, the

8:12

encounter groups, you felt like, in some

8:14

ways, this was the authentic Harry.

8:16

In some ways, you couldn't be that authentic person

8:18

in your marriage. What affected this have on your marriage,

8:20

Harry?

8:21

Well, it basically ended it.

8:24

Of course, it took a year or a year and a

8:26

half for that to actually happen. But

8:29

essentially, I began to

8:32

experience my outside

8:34

life as far more rewarding and far

8:36

more meaningful than the

8:38

life that I had with my

8:40

wife. And so we began to spend

8:42

less time together. Our time

8:44

together would be more

8:46

structured on formalities rather

8:48

than the kind of intimacies that that

8:50

should go on in a marriage. Mhmm. The

8:52

story that you're telling about your

8:54

marriage is I think really

8:56

revealing because it also

8:58

matches what your research has been finding

9:00

over the last several years.

9:02

What is the relationship between

9:04

the experience of being understood in an intimate

9:07

relationship and the likelihood

9:09

of success or failure of that

9:11

relationship.

9:12

understanding is one of the most

9:14

important things that we want in

9:16

our close relationships. This is

9:18

actually true beyond the realm

9:20

of close relation leadership, but especially

9:23

in our most intimate

9:25

relationships, marriages,

9:28

our friendships, our connections with

9:30

our siblings and and the rest of family.

9:32

One of the most powerful

9:34

things that we want is

9:36

for there to be real

9:38

understanding in those relationships that

9:41

the people on the other side know

9:43

who we are and

9:45

are caring and validating

9:47

and accepting of that person.

9:49

It's interesting. I think when most people think of

9:52

intimate relationships, they think about things

9:54

like love or, you know, appreciation

9:56

or stability, But the moment you

9:58

say this, it makes intuitive sense to

10:00

me that one thing to be understood

10:02

is absolutely core to

10:04

intimate relationships. Well,

10:05

I think the important point is that

10:08

things like love and trust

10:10

and caring simply don't

10:12

work if there isn't understanding.

10:14

If your understanding of

10:16

me is different than than

10:18

how I understand myself, then

10:21

when you tell me how much you love

10:23

me, you're telling me that you love somebody

10:25

different than me.

10:26

And if I and if I tell

10:28

you how much I appreciate you, but in fact,

10:30

I'm appreciating you for the things that you're not you

10:32

don't think are the most important things about

10:35

yourself. Some of my feedback

10:37

will now start to sound inauthentic

10:39

to you.

10:39

And in fact, we have done research

10:41

where we did exactly that.

10:44

And a very interesting thing

10:46

happens. people smile,

10:48

they they say they're happy to get the feedback,

10:50

and then they want to get out of there as fast

10:52

as possible in case the other

10:54

person finds out how false. the

10:56

impression wise. So it it

10:58

feels inauthentic and very

11:00

unrewarding. Mhmm. It'll suppose you

11:02

got a nice big raise at work from

11:04

your boss. And they said they're

11:06

giving you the raise because of something

11:08

that isn't true about you.

11:10

Mhmm. You know,

11:11

think about how uncomfortable that would

11:13

feel. It makes you feel like an impostor almost.

11:16

Exactly.

11:20

The

11:20

moment I heard about Harry's work, I

11:23

started to see its applications everywhere.

11:25

Think about the perennial conflict

11:27

between parents and children. So

11:29

much of it can be traced to the feeling many

11:32

kids have that their parents

11:33

just don't get them.

11:36

Take the opening scene of the movie

11:38

Lady Bird. A teenager and

11:40

her mom are driving back from a college

11:42

tour,

11:43

and they start to squabble. I

11:45

wish

11:45

I could live through something. Aren't

11:49

you? Nope. The

11:52

only

11:52

exciting thing two thousand and

11:54

two is that it's a palindrome.

11:55

Okay. Fine. Well yours is the worst

11:57

life of all, so you win. Oh, so now you're

11:59

mad. No. It's just so funny. particularly because

12:02

you have a great one. I'm sorry. I'm not perfect.

12:04

No one's asking you to be perfect. Just

12:06

consider it would do. I don't even wanna go to school in

12:08

this state anyway. I hate California.

12:11

Obviously, this is a comedy, but

12:13

the teenager's fury at being misunderstood

12:15

is palpable. I wanna

12:17

go where culture is like

12:19

you gonna research or at least Connecticut or

12:21

New Hampshire where writers live in the world. those

12:24

schools anyway. Mom, you can't even pass

12:26

your drivers, but he's It's a

12:28

very common feeling for adolescents

12:31

and for that matter, adults

12:33

to feel like their parents

12:35

don't understand them. And

12:37

sometimes that comes from the

12:39

fact that we grow, we

12:41

change, often we

12:43

move away from our families

12:46

and become things that our families

12:48

don't necessarily have an appreciation

12:50

of. I

12:51

want to talk a little bit about

12:52

the implications of your work not in the context

12:54

of intimate relationships, but in the context

12:56

of professional relationships. You you said

12:58

a second ago that wanting to be understood as core

13:00

to intimate relationships but

13:02

I have the sense that it also plays a role in

13:05

professional relationships. Can you talk about that? Can

13:07

you talk about the importance for example as

13:09

an academic? for your fellow

13:11

peers, not just to think that you're

13:13

a good research or a smart person, but to

13:15

truly understand the insights that

13:17

you have developed over the years. Well,

13:19

sure, in the academy, it's

13:21

very important that our colleagues,

13:23

the people who are working with, toward

13:25

the common goal of doing research

13:27

and educating students and each

13:29

other. It's very important

13:31

that they understand what

13:33

we're trying to do in our work, that

13:35

they get the message not only

13:37

the the superficial content

13:39

of it, but also the meta message

13:41

that is underneath that,

13:44

it's true in medicine. When

13:47

there's much research that shows

13:49

that medical care

13:51

works better when patients feel

13:53

like their doctors are

13:55

listening and really understand

13:58

what their symptoms are, what their needs are,

14:00

what what they want

14:02

done. Mhmm. It's common in in

14:04

the classroom also. Students

14:07

do better when they feel like their

14:09

teachers understand who they

14:11

are and and what their priorities

14:13

are.

14:13

It may

14:18

be

14:18

helpful to think about what happens when

14:20

we don't receive that kind of understanding

14:22

in professional settings.

14:26

Students who think that professors don't understand

14:28

them are more likely to end up feeling

14:30

lackadaisical about their studies.

14:33

A patient

14:33

who thinks her doctor can't be bothered

14:36

to listen to her might disregard

14:38

otherwise excellent medical guidance.

14:41

Over time, if we feel

14:43

our colleagues

14:43

and clients and customers

14:46

don't understand what we go through every

14:48

day, we become much

14:50

more likely to

14:51

snap. That's

14:54

what happened to JetBlue flight attendant,

14:57

Steven Slater. Like many flight attendants,

14:59

he had trouble getting passengers to

15:01

sit down while the

15:02

plane was still taxi. As

15:04

he argued with one woman, a piece

15:06

of luggage got loose, and hit

15:08

him in the head. Here's what

15:10

happened next, according to a Boston

15:12

TV station. That's when

15:13

witnesses say Slater lost

15:15

it, telling off the entire flame

15:18

cursing at passengers from the intercom.

15:20

His profanity laced tirade ended with

15:22

a, quote, I've been in this business

15:24

for twenty eight years. I've had it.

15:26

That's it. Schlader swung open

15:28

the plane's side door and rode the evacuation

15:30

shoot down to the Tarmac.

15:36

I asked

15:36

Harry to talk about how a lack of understanding

15:39

from colleagues and customers can

15:41

produce burnout. People

15:42

feeling misunderstood is something

15:45

that is growing by leaps and bounds in

15:47

in the world we live in now

15:49

with all these stresses and

15:51

tensions that we have, there's more

15:53

and more of a need

15:55

to get connected with other

15:57

people. And part of that connection

16:00

involves the sense of

16:02

really understanding where people

16:04

are coming from. Mhmm.

16:06

In the old world, you know, most of

16:08

the people that you dealt with were

16:10

people from your community, people

16:13

who had lives that were

16:15

relatively similar to yours, who lived

16:17

with the same context as you lived

16:19

with, and it was easy

16:21

enough to understand them because

16:24

everything that they were facing was the

16:26

same as what what you were facing.

16:28

Mhmm. But now we're

16:30

so much more mobile and we're so much

16:32

more connected We're coming across

16:34

people who have different

16:36

backgrounds, different goals, different

16:38

priorities, indeed they may be

16:40

living in opposite

16:42

size of the planet. So

16:44

the context is so so much different

16:46

and it's so much harder to

16:49

establish that core base

16:51

of understanding. Why

16:52

do you think it is that being

16:55

understood is so important to human

16:57

beings, Harry? What is happening at a psychological

16:59

level that makes this so important? Well,

17:01

I think that's a very interesting question,

17:03

Shankar. I think one of the

17:05

reasons for that is

17:08

that when you feel understood, it's

17:10

much easier to connect with another

17:12

person. It means you

17:14

don't need to explain yourself repeatedly.

17:18

it it gives you a greater sense

17:20

of coherence that the world

17:23

is predictable and

17:26

and sensible that you can move

17:28

in it freely without

17:30

having to worry about how you're coming

17:32

across. Am I being likable? Am

17:34

I being smart? Am

17:36

I being effective in that situation.

17:38

I'm wondering if

17:39

part of this also is that if I feel

17:42

like you like me for who

17:44

I am, I

17:46

feel a greater liberty to actually be

17:48

myself, to be authentic. Well,

17:50

I

17:50

feel a greater liberty to

17:53

be authentic. but I also don't need to worry about

17:55

rejection. Mhmm. We are primed

17:57

by evolution to be very concerned about

17:59

being

17:59

accepted by our group

18:02

in in we all have a

18:04

very strong need to belong. And

18:07

if I'm understood, then

18:09

I don't have to worry about my

18:11

true self coming out and

18:13

and getting kicked out by the

18:15

group, whereas if I feel

18:17

like the group really doesn't

18:19

know me, then I'm constantly

18:21

having to monitor and and protect

18:24

my status.

18:27

Harry Reese and a

18:29

number of researchers have tried to understand

18:31

a paradox. If wanting to be

18:33

understood is so important to our relationships

18:35

and our well-being, Why do so

18:37

many of us regularly keep our true

18:40

selves hidden? That's when

18:42

we come back. You're listening to hidden

18:44

brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.

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This

21:01

is hidden

21:03

brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. A

21:06

desire to be understood.

21:08

to be seen for who we are, is a

21:11

powerful driver of successful relationships

21:13

between parents and children, between

21:15

romantic partners, and between

21:18

colleagues. Knowing that

21:20

is the easy part.

21:21

Unfortunately, there are

21:23

barriers that get in the way of

21:25

actually reaching such understanding. Paradoxically,

21:28

one major barrier can be

21:30

our own desire to

21:32

be understood. After Harry's

21:35

first marriage ended, he

21:37

remarried. He and his wife, Ellen,

21:39

are both psychologists, and they've been

21:41

married for more than thirty years. Despite

21:43

the longevity of their relationship,

21:45

there are still moments when things can

21:47

suddenly unravel over a trivial

21:50

issue,

21:50

like buying a new couch for

21:52

that TV room. We have

21:53

a relatively small TV

21:55

room and we had a

21:57

couch in there that

21:59

was comfortable

22:01

for two people to sit on, but

22:03

not comfortable for two people to recline

22:07

on. And my

22:09

wife wanted us to get a new

22:11

couch that would allow

22:13

us both to recline comfortably

22:16

on it. Whereas, I wanted to keep this

22:18

couch because it was

22:20

perfectly comfortable for me. I'm a

22:22

large person. And this

22:24

is one of the few couches that I've sat

22:26

on that worked perfectly for me. Howard

22:28

Bauchner: And so this

22:29

seems like a very, you know, we both have reasonable

22:31

positions, of course, and so

22:33

course, what you did was you sat down reasonably and discussed the

22:35

pros and cons of getting a new couch.

22:38

Right? Well, no,

22:39

not exactly. you

22:41

know, there's a truism that psychologists like to talk

22:44

about. So who are the

22:46

worst patients for psychotherapy?

22:48

And the answer is

22:50

a couple of psychologists. And the

22:52

reason for that is that each

22:54

knows exactly what's wrong with the other

22:57

person. and if the other person only fix it, everything

22:59

would be fine. And in a sense,

23:01

that's how our initial conversations about

23:03

the couch began. we

23:06

would discuss what we liked or didn't like

23:08

about the couch and each of us would complete

23:11

the other person sentences because we were

23:13

absolutely certain that we understood

23:15

what was going on in the other one's

23:18

mind. To keep heart of that

23:20

that was so unhelpful is

23:23

the not allowing the perspectives to

23:25

be to be talked about, to allow

23:27

them to come out in a marriage

23:29

and for that matter in any kind of

23:32

relationship to resolve a

23:34

conflict involves involves

23:36

putting aside one's presumptions about

23:38

what the other person is thinking and feeling.

23:40

Even if those presumptions might be right

23:43

and instead really listening to

23:45

what the other person is saying

23:48

and then making it clear

23:50

that one really is listening. And

23:52

that became the solution to

23:54

the couch problem when

23:57

we stopped interrupting each other and stopped talking

23:59

over each other and very

24:01

clearly stated what each of

24:03

us wanted to happen we

24:06

actually came to a very

24:08

good agreement about it, which was that

24:10

we searched for a couch

24:12

that had the lengths that

24:14

my wife wanted and that had the support

24:17

features that I wanted. And

24:19

it took a little bit of doing, but we found

24:21

one. And it's coming

24:23

next week. And of course, this

24:23

is a trivial example. It it

24:26

obviously resolved in a perfectly happy

24:28

manner, but you can see how the

24:30

same dynamics play out in all situations

24:32

with far less, you know, agreeable

24:35

outcomes where two parties are in

24:37

conflict with one another. Each of them feels like the

24:39

other is not not only not understanding them,

24:41

but not making any attempt to understand

24:43

them. Each of them is trying to get

24:45

that position out, unable to hear what the other

24:47

person is saying, And

24:49

this combination of wanting to be understood and

24:51

not being able to offer understanding to the other

24:53

person ends up being really

24:55

toxic. Yes. That's absolutely correct.

24:57

We are not perfectly articulate human beings.

24:59

When we communicate, we

25:01

don't necessarily measure every

25:03

word perfectly. We use linguistic

25:06

styles that may not be a hundred percent compatible

25:08

with the other person. Mhmm.

25:10

We make assumptions in our

25:12

heads about, you know, what we're thinking and feeling

25:14

that don't always come across.

25:17

And so the process of

25:19

communication is is a very

25:21

imperfect one and the more imperfect

25:23

it is the more difficult it

25:25

is to develop a true sense of

25:27

understanding. Howard Bauchner: So

25:29

besides some of the conflicts that

25:31

been talking about in the course of interpersonal relationships.

25:33

You and others have also identified a

25:35

host of psychological barriers

25:38

that cause people in some ways to hide themselves from

25:40

others, but also cause them not to see

25:42

others clearly. And I wanna look at

25:44

some of these in in detail.

25:47

The researcher Tom Gilovich once ran

25:49

a study where volunteers were

25:51

videotape sampling a variety

25:53

of beverages. And and one of

25:55

these contained a disgusting vinegar brine

25:58

solution. The volunteers were

25:58

told to conceal their

25:59

feelings of disgust and then asked

26:02

to guess whether others

26:04

would notice that they

26:06

you tell me what happened and what bearing this

26:08

has to our conversation about being

26:10

understood? Well,

26:11

we

26:12

often assume that

26:15

other people can see what

26:17

we're feeling even when we

26:19

don't actually express those feelings.

26:21

Mhmm. So so often I

26:23

might be angry but not do a

26:25

terribly good job of explaining that. And I

26:27

would assume that everyone knows that

26:29

I'm angry without

26:31

necessarily that coming across. And

26:33

of course, that's exactly what happened in the study. The

26:35

the volunteers in fact thought that

26:37

their feelings of disgust would be obvious

26:40

to other people, but but they were

26:42

not. And and Tom Gilovich and his

26:44

colleagues talked about the

26:46

illusion of transparency that we believe

26:48

that what we feel on the inside is

26:50

transparent to those on the outside.

26:52

Right. some of us are better

26:54

at being transparent than others.

26:56

Mhmm. But one of the

26:58

biggest misconceptions people

27:01

have about marriage, especially before

27:03

they go into marriage, is

27:06

that their partner will always know what they're

27:08

thinking and feeling. and and this is

27:10

a very, very destructive

27:12

expectation. Mhmm. So

27:14

sometimes, of course, problem

27:16

is not that we believe that we are transparent. Sometimes we're

27:19

actively trying to hide elements

27:21

of ourselves from others. When you're just getting to

27:23

know someone, for example, It

27:26

doesn't seem like a good time to show all of your

27:28

cards. Howard Bauchner:

27:28

Yes, well, and of course, there are many

27:31

situations in which it's appropriate not

27:33

to show all of your cards. But But

27:35

more importantly, I think there are many

27:37

situations in which people try not to

27:39

show all their cards when that

27:41

is actually

27:43

problematic. in dating situations,

27:45

for example, we're clearly putting our

27:47

best foot forward -- Mhmm. -- in

27:49

the early stages and even much

27:51

later in the relationship. people

27:54

often have what we call

27:56

hidden selves. We have aspects

27:58

of our self that we're really quite afraid

28:00

that other people will find

28:02

out because it's embarrassing,

28:04

because it will make us vulnerable,

28:06

because we fear that

28:08

it might make our partners' second

28:11

guess their their interest in us.

28:14

So

28:14

you and others have found that when people

28:16

experience a sense of being understood, they

28:18

they are drawn closer to those people. So

28:20

in other words, being understood prompts people to feel

28:22

closer to the people who understand them. But

28:24

in tenuous relationships, there's something of a

28:26

vicious cycle, the more insecure we

28:29

feel, The more hesitant we become about

28:31

sharing elements of ourselves that might be judged

28:33

harshly by others, and of course, the

28:35

less we share, the less close we feel

28:37

to others. So it seems to me that some of these

28:39

dynamics can produce a vicious

28:41

cycle. Howard Bauchner:

28:42

Yes, you're talking about the idea of self

28:44

filling prophecy and and the irony

28:47

there is that in the

28:49

very situation you described, people

28:51

will often berate their partner

28:54

for not understanding them. Mhmm. And yet,

28:56

they've been deliberately hiding aspects

28:59

of themselves.

29:01

So we've looked

29:05

at several ways in which we might

29:07

hide important parts of ourselves from

29:10

others, but let's flipped the script for a

29:12

second. It turns out that we also regularly

29:14

fail to take the time to

29:16

extend understanding to others. And, you know,

29:18

to go back to your your story about

29:20

the couch. Part of the problem

29:22

was that you were not slowing down enough

29:24

to hear your wife's perspective

29:26

because you were so anxious to get out

29:28

your own. Yes.

29:31

Well,

29:31

many times we are much

29:33

more interested in expressing our

29:35

point of view than in listening to the other person's point

29:37

of view. This is one of

29:40

the the great conversation skills

29:42

that people sometimes need to learn.

29:45

instead of listening, people will be thinking about

29:47

what's the next thing I'm gonna say. Mhmm.

29:49

And when you do that, it's that much

29:52

harder to understand what the other

29:54

person is actually talking about.

29:56

Mhmm. We really have to

29:58

learn how to

30:00

focus our attention on the other person

30:03

rather than ourselves.

30:09

I'm wondering if gender

30:10

dynamics play a role here as well.

30:12

It seems to me at least, you know, from

30:15

anecdotal experience that women are more

30:17

forthcoming than and men are in sort of

30:19

revealing elements of themselves and

30:21

wanting to be understood and seeking to

30:23

understand. Is that a stereotype? Or do you think there's

30:25

some truth

30:25

in it? Well, I there is

30:27

truth in, I think, is the idea that

30:29

women are better at doing

30:31

the understanding. Mhmm. Women are

30:33

better at paying attention to

30:36

what the other person saying and expressing

30:38

that in a way that

30:40

comes across to the other person.

30:43

women also do tend to be somewhat

30:45

more emotionally open.

30:47

We've done a lot of research

30:50

on that gender difference. And

30:52

what's interesting about it is

30:54

that women tend to be

30:56

relatively more open regardless of

30:59

the gender of the person that they're

31:01

talking to. But

31:03

men tend to be open

31:05

primarily with women. In other

31:07

words, men when they're

31:10

interacting with other men are

31:12

less likely to be emotionally open,

31:14

and that often interferes

31:17

with men's developing close friendships, particularly

31:19

later in life. You

31:22

have an

31:22

interesting story about something you overheard at

31:24

the gym where couple of

31:26

men were having a heart to heart or at least one of them was

31:29

having a heart to heart.

31:31

Yes. I was at my

31:34

gym and there were two young men

31:36

standing there. One of them said, you know, how are

31:38

you doing to the other? And and the

31:40

other said, oh, it's just terrible.

31:42

My wife left me, I lost my

31:44

job, and I

31:46

had an auto accident. And

31:49

the other man said, wow, you know, it's

31:51

really important to get your feelings out.

31:53

Why don't you tell me about it?

31:55

and, you know, my ears perked up. I thought,

31:57

wow, this is exactly what

31:59

we're talking about. And then he

32:01

said, and I've got a minute. So

32:04

go ahead.

32:09

I feel there are also times Harry

32:11

when we may actively not

32:13

want to understand someone else.

32:16

If you sense that a friend or a colleague

32:18

or a romantic partner thinks poorly of

32:20

you, it almost might

32:22

be less painful if you

32:24

engaged in some willful blindness.

32:26

Can you talk about this as being one of the barriers

32:28

to actually understanding other people?

32:30

Yes. We talk about this as when

32:32

when the head protects the heart.

32:34

And the simple idea here

32:37

is that there

32:38

are many things that other people might

32:40

be thinking about us. that we don't want

32:42

to know about. For

32:45

example, early in

32:47

a dating relationship, we

32:49

may not want to really know

32:51

the other person thinks of ourselves. It it might

32:53

be unpleasant. It might not be what we

32:55

want to hear. In a conversation

32:58

with a teacher or a work

33:01

supervisor, we may not

33:03

want to really know what the other person

33:05

thinks of what we're doing because it may

33:07

not be entirely complementary to

33:10

ourselves. And so often

33:12

we have blinders.

33:15

Now, of course, when you take this to an

33:17

extreme, it's quite dysfunctional. but

33:19

at relatively low levels, this

33:21

may be highly functional.

33:27

We often

33:29

do a getting acquainted exercise with

33:32

students where we ask students what

33:34

superpower they would like. Mhmm. And sooner or

33:36

later, one student always says the ability

33:38

to read other people's minds. And

33:41

I think it's safe to say that

33:44

the ability to read other people's mind

33:46

is the worst thing that could happen

33:48

to us.

33:57

Researchers once asked a couple of

33:59

hundred couples

33:59

to write down every evening for a couple of

34:02

weeks how considered or selfish their

34:04

partner had been or how

34:06

supportive they'd been. And then I've had

34:08

them predict how their partners would behave the next day. And and the

34:10

researchers generally found that

34:12

people believe that the way their partners

34:14

had behaved

34:16

on day one was a good predictor of how they would behave

34:18

on day two. So in other words,

34:20

we assume that the people whom we're

34:23

engaging with today their behaviors are not going to change in

34:25

the future. And of course, one of

34:28

the reasons in some ways we fail to

34:30

understand other

34:32

people is that our impressions of who they are are rooted

34:34

in the past. Well, we have

34:36

a strong belief that character

34:40

is a major determinant of behavior.

34:42

And so we assume that people

34:44

are going to be consistent from one

34:48

situation from to another from one day

34:50

to another indeed even from one period of life to another period

34:52

of life. Right. And what we under

34:56

consider is the idea that people people

34:58

change, that people situations

35:00

change, and that that

35:04

leads them to behave in different ways as

35:06

well. So often when we're dealing with

35:08

partners, when we're dealing with

35:10

students, when we're dealing

35:12

with coworkers, we

35:14

don't account for the fact that

35:17

people develop, people change

35:19

in priorities, people

35:22

mature, and they

35:24

behave differently over time.

35:26

This is especially, I think, acute

35:28

when you're talking about parents and children,

35:31

so the The mom who thinks the the

35:33

adolescent son always needs help

35:35

has trouble adapting to the fact that maybe

35:37

the adolescent son now is twenty five years old

35:39

and perhaps doesn't need her help as much.

35:41

one

35:41

of the hardest things about

35:44

parenting is that children

35:46

develop and they often develop

35:48

rather quickly and

35:51

recognizing the the skill changes

35:53

or the the need changes that

35:55

a child goes through is often

35:57

difficult for parents to keep up with. Tell me by

35:59

the time your mom came

36:00

to visit you when you

36:04

are First in Rochester, you were twenty five years old, I believe. Tell me

36:06

that story, Harry. Yes. I was twenty

36:08

five years

36:08

old. This was the first time I

36:11

lived in a in a

36:13

house of my own. My mother walked in

36:15

the door and without

36:18

taking her jacket off, started to clean

36:20

the sink.

36:22

And it was not that dirty. Did

36:25

you have a conversation

36:28

with her about this? I mean, you say, you know, I'm the

36:30

psychologist. I know exactly what you're doing?

36:32

No. I was to have my

36:34

sink clean. One of the things

36:36

I'm taking

36:36

away from all this work, Harry, is

36:40

that you know, being understood requires significant effort

36:42

from two parties. So understanding tends

36:44

to happen when you have an excellent communicator

36:48

paired with an excellent empath. And of course, when you

36:50

put it that way, it becomes much less surprising that

36:52

so many of us go through life

36:56

without getting the understanding that we want or without

36:58

extending understanding to others? Yes,

37:00

that's correct.

37:01

A failure on either end

37:03

of that transaction can can make

37:06

it go bad. Can

37:07

you talk for a moment about the

37:09

experience of getting this understanding, given that it's rare,

37:11

given that it doesn't happen always, I

37:13

think many of us have a feeling of

37:15

almost transcendence when we feel like we are paired

37:17

with someone who truly gets us.

37:20

Well,

37:20

I would not quite want to go

37:22

as far as you're going and saying that

37:24

we don't have this kind of understanding.

37:26

We certainly don't have this kind of

37:28

complete understanding. But if we didn't have some

37:31

level of understanding, we would

37:33

all be deflecting and bouncing off each

37:35

other in many ways.

37:38

So there's some level of basic understanding

37:40

that is quite common in our

37:42

lives. And for that to

37:44

happen, we have to be

37:48

reasonably open in expressing what's important

37:50

to us and reasonably good listeners in

37:52

paying attention to what's being

37:55

said to us.

38:05

When we

38:05

come back, a curious twist.

38:08

It turns out there is a big difference

38:10

between being understood and

38:14

feeling understood. Also, given the barriers we face to

38:16

understanding, what skills can help

38:18

us become more connected to

38:20

others and

38:22

allow us to understand them a little better. You're listening to

38:24

hidden brain. I'm

38:26

Shankar Vedanta.

38:38

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This is hidden

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40:48

The

40:50

desire

40:50

to feel understood appears

40:52

to be a core psychological need. When we have

40:54

it,

40:54

we are happier colleagues, warmer partners,

40:57

and more loyal friends.

41:00

when we don't feel understood,

41:02

it can corrode even our best relationships.

41:06

Psychologist Harry Reese studies

41:08

intimate relationships He's found

41:10

that being understood is a pillar

41:12

of successful relationships, but there

41:14

are all kinds of cognitive biases that

41:16

keep us from

41:18

being understood and keep us from

41:20

understanding others. Harry, one of

41:22

the most interesting aspects

41:25

of your research is that you

41:27

found a difference between being understood and feeling

41:30

understood. Can you explain this difference to

41:32

me? Yes.

41:34

Being understood refers

41:36

to whether you really understand, whether

41:39

another person is like, what

41:41

their preferences are, what

41:43

their character traits are, what their needs

41:46

are, what their desires are.

41:48

Feeling understood, it's entirely

41:50

within the mind

41:52

of the perceiver and it's the

41:54

belief that another person really

41:57

understands who you are and

41:59

what's important

41:59

to you. And

42:00

you're saying that there are sometimes cases where people

42:03

may feel understood without

42:05

actually being

42:07

understood? Yes,

42:08

there are. One of the things we've we've found in our

42:11

work is that when people

42:14

have successful

42:16

relationships they often imagine

42:18

that other people understand them

42:20

better than they actually do. And

42:22

this is one thing that actually

42:25

helps them maintain a sense of

42:28

security and safety in

42:30

that relationship. And and

42:32

you've

42:32

done studies to this effect understand

42:34

where you show that in some ways the belief that you are understood,

42:36

the feeling that you have are being understood. In

42:38

fact, as a strong predictor, of

42:41

the success of that relationship, not necessarily the

42:43

fact that people actually are

42:46

understood. Yes.

42:46

That's correct. Well, what we did in

42:48

this work was look at the

42:51

extent to which people felt

42:53

understood by their close

42:55

relationship partners in two

42:57

different areas. One is in the area

42:59

of sexual preferences and the other

43:01

was in the area of human

43:04

preferences. And what we

43:06

found was quite interesting and

43:08

that's that when people feel

43:12

very satisfied with their relationships

43:14

and when they feel very similar

43:16

to the people that they're

43:18

relating to, they actually

43:20

imagine that there's a

43:22

greater level of understanding than there actually

43:24

is. Now, this is a

43:27

good thing because that greater

43:30

level of feeling understood

43:34

allows them to feel more confident, more

43:36

safe, more happy in the

43:38

relationship. So we talk

43:40

about this. as

43:42

a maintenance mechanism. And by that, we mean a

43:44

way of thinking about your

43:47

relationship that actually boosts the

43:50

integrity and the coherence and the

43:52

safety of the relationship.

43:54

I'm

43:54

thinking about this also in

43:56

the context of politics. Politicians

43:58

like you know, Bill Clinton

44:00

or Donald Trump. They're loved

44:02

by their supporters in part because

44:05

people feel like they understand them. Is

44:07

that stretching your research too far to extend it to

44:09

the realm of politics? No, I

44:11

think that

44:12

that implication follows

44:15

quite naturally. You know, both

44:17

Bill Clinton and Donald Trump

44:19

were able to communicate to

44:21

other people something that

44:23

made it sound like he really

44:26

understood what was important to

44:28

those people. And that

44:31

is a major determinant of people's

44:34

identification with candidates, their

44:36

willingness to go out and vote

44:38

for those candidates

44:40

or perhaps to even donate to them. Four years when in my

44:42

state, when people lose their jobs, there's a

44:44

good chance I'll know them by their names. When a

44:46

factory closes, I know the people who

44:48

ran it. the

44:50

businesses go bankrupt, I know them.

44:52

People that have lost their jobs, lost their

44:54

livelihood, lost their health insurance. What I

44:56

want you to

44:58

understand is, On the campaign, I called it, the

45:00

forgotten man

45:00

and the forgotten woman. Well,

45:03

you're not forgotten anymore

45:05

that I can tell

45:07

you. not forgotten anymore.

45:10

And I think it might

45:12

also be

45:13

a measure

45:14

of how much we are willing

45:16

to forgive candidates even if they fail to deliver

45:19

on promises that they have

45:21

made to us. When we feel

45:23

that the candidates understand us

45:26

that this leader truly gets us. This leader

45:28

is perhaps even one of us. You're

45:30

willing to forgive all kinds of things.

45:32

Even if the candidate doesn't actually deliver,

45:34

once he or she is in office? Yes. I think that's exactly

45:38

right.

45:41

I wanna

45:41

turn to some of the techniques that we can use

45:43

to better understand other people and to be

45:46

better understood by others.

45:48

Psychotherapists sometimes use a technique

45:50

called speaker listener technique to help

45:53

couples overcome misunderstandings. Can you describe

45:55

this technique to me, Harry? Sure.

45:57

The the speaker listener technique

45:59

is

45:59

a very straightforward way of trying

46:02

to both enforce the

46:04

idea of needing to listen,

46:06

but also to create the

46:08

sense of being listened to.

46:10

Mhmm. So in the speaker listener

46:12

technique, there will be a a box

46:14

on the table with with two

46:16

red lights. one in front of each

46:18

partner. And the the way the process works is

46:20

only the partner who has

46:22

the light is allowed to speak.

46:26

So the lights on, you're allowed to speak, and you can say

46:28

whatever your concerns or issues

46:30

are. Then the light switches,

46:33

and the partner's job is

46:35

to repeat what you

46:37

just said as

46:38

they heard it. Then the the

46:40

first person's light comes back on

46:42

And that person then has to comment on whether

46:45

you got it right or how

46:47

you got it wrong. And

46:50

then the other person's light comes back on and they have to

46:53

amend what they said to

46:55

reflect the feedback that you just

46:57

gave them. Mhmm. So in some

47:00

ways, you're you're slowing people down to the point where each

47:02

side says not only have I

47:04

had my say, I am now sure the

47:06

other person has

47:08

heard me in exactly the way that I want to be heard. Right. But it's

47:10

more than just

47:10

slowing down because lots of times people

47:12

know that they have to shut up while the

47:14

other person is saying their point of

47:18

view. but their mind will be closed.

47:20

This technique forces them to open their minds and

47:22

really listen to what's being said.

47:25

Uh-huh.

47:26

What are the saletary

47:28

effects that greater understanding might

47:30

bring? Both in in terms of

47:33

our personal psychology, but also in the way we treat

47:35

other people. Howard Bauchner: Yes, we've

47:37

done a number of studies of

47:39

this where we use an

47:41

experimental manipulation that will

47:44

temporarily allow people to

47:46

feel more understood -- Mhmm. -- or

47:48

alternatively to feel more

47:50

misunderstood. Mhmm. And what

47:52

we find is that once we give people a

47:54

sense that they've been understood, that

47:56

they've been validated and

47:58

responded to, they become more

48:00

open minded

48:02

they become more willing to consider opposite

48:04

points of view. This is work

48:06

that I did with an Israeli colleague

48:09

named Guy, it Chikov. Mhmm. And we gave

48:11

people a sense of being

48:14

understood and then measured

48:16

their prejudice

48:18

toward some out group that they might have known, perhaps

48:20

it was an ethnic group, perhaps it

48:22

was people with a different sexuality, some

48:25

group that prior to

48:27

the study, they had expressed some

48:30

negativity toward. And we

48:32

found that after feeling

48:34

understood, they

48:36

become less concerned with inflating their

48:38

view of themselves, of thinking of themselves

48:40

in a more ego enhancing

48:44

way and most importantly and and most interestingly, they

48:46

become less prejudiced towards out

48:48

groups. I'm wondering if

48:50

you can tell me a little bit about

48:51

some of the techniques that

48:54

you employ yourself. Having done this work for many years after

48:56

seeing the importance of of

48:58

of actual understanding as well as communicating

49:01

understanding to other people. How

49:04

has this changed the way you interact with others? In terms of

49:06

your students, your colleagues, your partners, your

49:08

friends, your family? Do you do things differently

49:10

today than you did in the past?

49:13

Oh,

49:13

absolutely. One of the

49:16

things I do, particularly with

49:18

students, is

49:20

that you know, students will often come to you with a request for

49:22

this, that, or the other thing. Mhmm.

49:24

And often, it's not a request

49:26

that we can grant. and

49:30

rather than just, you know, say,

49:32

no, sorry, I will sort

49:34

of go out of my way to

49:37

make it clear that I understood what

49:39

they said. I think it's a perfectly

49:41

reasonable thing for them to ask

49:43

for, but I just can't do

49:45

it. they may feel turned down, but

49:48

at least they know that

49:50

I paid attention and respected

49:52

where they were

49:54

coming from. I

49:54

I wanna stay with that insight for a moment because

49:55

in some I think what you're hinting at, at least, is

49:58

that sometimes the pain

50:00

we feel

50:02

in disagreements might be less

50:04

about the disagreement and it might be

50:06

more about how we feel the other

50:08

person has heard us or listened to

50:10

us or taken us

50:12

seriously.

50:12

Absolutely. There is research

50:14

by one of my colleagues, Amy

50:16

Gordon, where she has shown

50:19

that conflicts even when

50:21

they don't get resolved are

50:23

less harmful to relationships when people

50:26

feel like they've been heard

50:28

and understood. One

50:30

of the misconceptions that people

50:32

have is that if

50:34

you express understanding for what

50:37

the other person is saying that you're somehow

50:39

agreeing with their point of view. And

50:41

that need to be the case.

50:44

Understanding simply means making it

50:46

clear that you get the message

50:48

that they communicated and

50:50

that you respect it as a reasonable

50:53

point of view. that doesn't mean that you have to agree

50:55

with it. But it's it's

50:57

what flagging. The

51:00

reason that I think many

51:02

of us fail to do this, fail to understand others, or

51:04

fail to have ourselves be understood. Is it

51:06

actually is is it's hard? It

51:08

does involve involves

51:10

effort, and it involves

51:13

emotional effort. And

51:15

it

51:15

also involves vulnerability. involves

51:18

being open to hearing something

51:20

that you might not like. So in

51:23

in some ways, the act

51:25

of doing this involves, you know,

51:27

I definitely involves courage.

51:30

The courage to tell you who I

51:34

really am and the courage to listen to who you

51:36

really are.

51:43

Harry Rees is

51:46

a

51:47

psychologist at the University of

51:50

Rochester. Harry, thank you for joining me today on

51:52

Hidden Bray. My pleasure.

51:56

Hidden brain is produced by Hidden

51:58

Brain Media,

51:59

Our audio production team includes Bridget

52:02

McCarthy, Annie Murphy Paul,

52:04

Christian Wong, Laura Correll,

52:06

Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes and

52:10

Andrew Chadwick. Tara Boyle is our executive

52:12

producer. I'm HiddenBrain's executive

52:14

editor. Arun

52:16

Sank hero this week is the psychologist

52:20

Sonia Louvemiss She was featured in our episode where

52:22

happiness hides. After we

52:24

talked, Sonya told us about Harry Reese's

52:26

research on the importance of

52:30

feeling understood. Thank you, Sonia, for introducing us to Harry's

52:32

work. If you enjoyed

52:34

this episode, make sure

52:37

you go back and check out our entire relationships

52:39

two point o series. And if you'd like

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to support, dot hidden brain

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dot org. I'm Shankar Vedanta. See

53:00

you soon.

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