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fuel restriction supply Hello

1:59

And welcome to Life of the

2:01

Week, where leading historians delve into

2:04

the lives of some of history's

2:06

most intriguing and significant figures. From

2:09

ancient Egyptian pharaohs and medieval

2:11

warriors to daring 20th century

2:14

spies. Katherine

2:19

Parr was the most married queen of

2:21

England's most married king. But the

2:24

fact that she survived Henry VIII

2:26

obscures the rest of her legacy, not

2:29

least that she was the first woman to publish

2:31

a book under her own name. In

2:34

this Life of the Week

2:36

episode, Elizabeth Norton explores how

2:38

Katherine's reformist writings almost

2:41

cost her her head, her

2:43

true relationship with Thomas Seymour,

2:45

and why her greatest legacy

2:47

might be Elizabeth I. She

2:49

was speaking to Kev Lochin. Elizabeth,

2:52

it's a delight to have you here. Thank you so much

2:54

for joining us. It's an absolute pleasure.

2:56

Thank you so much for inviting me on. You're

2:59

very welcome. This episode is about Katherine

3:01

Parr. And I think for listeners who

3:03

are familiar with English history, she might

3:05

be quite a familiar figure. But even

3:07

so, would you be able to introduce

3:09

us to who she is in a

3:11

nutshell? Absolutely. So Katherine

3:14

Parr is famously the wife

3:16

that survived Henry VIII. And of course, she's

3:18

not the only one to outlive him, but

3:20

in the famous rhyme, she survives. She's his

3:23

sixth wife, so the final

3:25

of his queens. She's an

3:27

English gentlewoman, is raised to marriage by

3:29

Henry VIII to the queenship and really

3:31

embraces it. But she's very much a

3:34

famous figure as an influential

3:36

figure on Henry's children, and also for

3:38

her involvement in the religious reform. I

3:41

wonder if we can go back to the beginning

3:43

with Katherine. What do we know of her early

3:45

life? And I did also wonder, who are the

3:47

Parrs in the context of Tudor England at this

3:49

time? So they're quite lowly,

3:52

relatively. They're a gentry family. They're not

3:54

a titled family, although they do have

3:56

connections to nobility. So the Parrs are

3:59

a northern family. Their seat is

4:01

Kendall in Cumbria, which is a

4:03

sort of foreboding, ruined castle above

4:05

the town. Although Catherine is unlikely

4:07

ever to have actually visited the

4:09

family seat, and she is born

4:11

in 1512 in London,

4:13

most likely. But the Parr

4:16

family are landed gentry. So they're quite

4:18

wealthy. Her mother is a gentlewoman.

4:20

She's an heiress, so she's inherited some

4:22

manners from her father. So they're a

4:25

relatively wealthy family, but they are below

4:27

the rank of nobility. And Catherine's parents,

4:29

Sir Thomas Parr and Matilda,

4:31

or Maude Green, they're

4:33

courtiers, effectively. They build a court career.

4:35

And so Catherine is raised around the

4:38

court in London. Do we have

4:40

any sense of in that early part of

4:42

her life, anything about her character, what sort

4:44

of woman she was? Yeah.

4:46

And I think with Catherine, we

4:48

need to look to her mother. Her mother

4:50

is such an influence on her and really,

4:52

I think, sets the scene for strong women

4:54

in Catherine's life. Catherine's father

4:56

actually dies of the plague when she's

4:58

quite a small child, which leaves Catherine's

5:00

mother, Maude, with three surviving children to

5:02

bring up and try and launch on

5:04

the world. And she's a real career

5:07

woman. I mean, we're used to sort

5:09

of thinking about gentlewomen staying at home

5:11

in the period, but Maude builds her

5:13

career at court. She's very close to

5:15

Catherine of Aragon, Henry VIII's first wife,

5:17

who is probably Catherine Parr's godmother.

5:19

We've got the similarity of names. And

5:21

I think it's quite a neat circle

5:23

that the first wife is godmother to

5:25

the sixth wife, most likely. She's certainly

5:27

named after her. Maude is one of

5:29

Catherine of Aragon's closest English friends. She

5:31

is given rooms at court.

5:33

She's allowed to eat her meals at court,

5:36

which is quite an honor in the period.

5:38

She will be in and out of the

5:40

household with her children. She supervises the education

5:42

of her children. And actually, we know that

5:44

Maude Parr runs quite a good

5:47

educational establishment. We actually have a letter

5:49

from another nobleman saying, actually, you should raise

5:51

your son with Maude Parr because it's

5:53

effectively a school. He'll learn Latin. He'll

5:56

learn to read and write. Go

5:58

there. So we know that she... She is

6:01

very well educated. She may well share lessons

6:03

with Princess Mary, Henry VIII's eldest daughter as

6:05

well. There's sort of some evidence that she

6:07

does. It was always traditionally said that she

6:09

does. There does seem to be some evidence.

6:11

So she's given a really good upbringing. We

6:14

don't really see her character in

6:16

this early period. And this is always a

6:18

problem with people below the rank of royalty

6:20

in that they sort of come in and

6:22

out in the records. But I think we

6:24

can look to her mother and say, you

6:26

know, this is a woman that raises her

6:28

and she raises her to expect better in

6:30

life. She wants Catherine to do something. That's

6:33

so fascinating. I hadn't realised there was

6:35

like courtly collection in the family and

6:37

that young in Catherine's life. And

6:39

certainly from what I know of Catherine or what I

6:42

was taught of Catherine is Catherine is the sixth wife

6:44

of Henry VIII. But I kind of belies the

6:47

fact that Henry is the third

6:49

husband of Catherine Parr. And actually he's a third

6:51

of four. I wonder, could you

6:53

tell us a bit about, well, let's

6:55

start with her first husband. Yeah. So

6:58

Catherine is the most married Queen of England, which is quite a sort

7:00

of a neat factor and she's married to

7:02

the most married King. But she's married

7:04

as a teenager to Edward Burr of Gainsborough. And

7:06

actually Gainsborough old hall still survives where she spent

7:08

some of this married life. So I mean, it's

7:10

worth a visit. It's not the

7:13

best marriage. It's certainly not the marriage

7:15

that Catherine's mother wanted to achieve for

7:17

her. And we've got a series of

7:19

letters where Catherine's mother approaches Lord Dacre

7:21

earlier in Catherine's childhood and tries to

7:23

arrange a marriage with Lord Dacre's grandson,

7:25

who's the heir to Lord Scrope. And

7:28

it's sort of your classic example of

7:30

the in-laws interfering. Lord Scrope is furious

7:32

that his father-in-law is trying to arrange

7:34

his marriage and really frustrates it. So

7:37

Maud isn't able to get her first choice as

7:39

husband. She does get her

7:41

first choice as wife for her son, William,

7:44

Catherine's younger brother. She's able to marry him

7:46

off to the heiress, to the Earl of

7:48

Essex, which is an enormous family coup. But

7:51

it effectively impoverishes her. It means she spends

7:53

all of the money she has to effectively

7:55

buy this bride for William. So she

7:57

doesn't have marriage portions for Catherine or the Earl of Essex.

8:00

younger sister Anne. So Edward Burr, it's

8:02

a solid match. It's not a great

8:04

match. It's the best that Maud can

8:06

do. And how does that

8:08

marriage go for Catherine? Because it's fairly

8:10

short-lived, right? It is. So

8:13

she's married as a teenager. She lives

8:15

in the household of her father-in-law, Sir

8:17

Thomas Burr, who is a strong

8:19

character. And I think that's sort of fair

8:21

to say. He's famous as one of Anne

8:24

Boleyn's officers. He actually caused a diplomatic incident

8:26

when he froze the royal arms of Spain

8:28

into the River Thames when he's stripping Catherine

8:30

of Aragon's barge for Anne Boleyn. He's a

8:33

religious reformer. This may be the moment where

8:35

Catherine is first exposed to sort of early

8:37

Protestantism to the religious reform movement. He also

8:40

famously will later throw one of his daughter-in-laws

8:42

out of his house. Catherine's husband, on the

8:44

other hand, is very much under the shadow

8:46

of his father. We know very little about

8:48

him. And actually, it's a very brief marriage.

8:50

He dies not long after the wedding, leaving

8:52

her as a childless widow in this quite

8:55

difficult situation in that the burrs don't

8:57

particularly want her there. And by this

8:59

time, her mother has died. She doesn't

9:01

have a home to go back to.

9:03

It's hugely challenging because she doesn't have

9:06

really the family support. She needs to remarry.

9:08

And she needs to remarry as quickly as

9:10

she can. And she actually does

9:12

quite well for herself. She marries John Neville, Lord

9:14

Latimer. So she actually moves up a rank. She's

9:16

now a PRS in her own right. He

9:19

is older than her. He's been married before.

9:21

He has two children, John and Margaret, who

9:23

Catherine is, of course, expected to now bring

9:26

up. But it's quite a good marriage

9:28

for her. I mean, it's clearly an arranged marriage. She

9:30

has taken this opportunity and she's run with it. But

9:32

this is the first time that she'll be in charge

9:35

of running her own household. And she's

9:37

in charge of Snake Castle in Yorkshire. On

9:39

a personal level, it seems to be quite

9:41

a happy marriage. They don't have any children

9:43

together, at least none that we know of.

9:45

But Catherine seems to have settled into her

9:47

role as stepmother. She will become very, very

9:49

close to her stepdaughter, Margaret Neville. In fact,

9:51

Margaret stays with her for the rest of

9:53

her life. She dies as a teenager while

9:55

Catherine is queen. I mean, actually, she leaves

9:57

at will, leaving everything to the queen. John

10:00

Neville, her stepson who's quite a turbulent character,

10:02

does seem to have had some relationship with

10:04

her. He actually names his daughter Catherine after

10:07

her, which again, I think suggests that they

10:09

are quite close. So on

10:11

a domestic level, it seems to have

10:13

been relatively happy, but it's set against

10:15

huge turmoil. In October 1536, a

10:19

great rebellion breaks out against Henry

10:21

VIII's religious policies, and it's known

10:24

as the pilgrimage of grace. It

10:26

starts in Lincolnshire. The Lincolnshire rebels

10:28

fairly quickly put down their arms,

10:30

but they've lit beacons across the

10:32

south side of the Humber. And

10:34

within a few days, Yorkshire has

10:36

risen. And this is a much bigger

10:39

problem to Henry, because unlike Lincolnshire,

10:41

where the leaders tend to be

10:43

local artisans, lower status individuals, the

10:45

leader at Loughton, Lincolnshire, who really

10:48

starts at his, called Captain Cobbler,

10:50

because he's a shoemaker. But in

10:52

Yorkshire, their leader is Robert Aske,

10:54

a one-eyed lawyer who's a very

10:57

well-educated figure, but they also look

10:59

to take noblemen as their captains.

11:02

And one night during the early days

11:04

of rebellion, the peasants actually come to

11:06

Snapecraft when they carry off Lord Latimer

11:08

to become one of their captains. And

11:11

it's a really fine line between duress

11:14

or free will. He's certainly taken against his

11:16

will, but there are indications that he does

11:18

agree with what the rebels want. They want

11:21

the end of the dissolution of the monasteries.

11:23

They want traditional religion to be restored. They

11:25

want to remove the king's reformist counsellors. And

11:27

they very much want to sort of bring

11:30

the king to heel. Lord Latimer actually is

11:32

asking the Archbishop of York whether it can

11:34

ever be lawful to make war against your

11:36

prince, which again sort of suggests that he

11:39

does sympathise with the rebels. And this really

11:41

is his problem. He's carried off under duress,

11:44

but how much duress really

11:46

is that? Certainly Catherine's former father-in-law, Sir Thomas

11:48

Burr, is able to escape the rebels when

11:50

they arrive at his house in Gainsborough, yet

11:52

she rides away on his horse as fast

11:54

as he can. Lord Latimer goes

11:56

with them. So it's a very difficult

11:59

time for Catherine. she's left alone at

12:01

Snape. Eventually, the rebels do agree to

12:03

go home after considerable negotiations with Henry.

12:05

I mean, there may well be around

12:07

60,000 people up in arms

12:09

against Henry. It's a huge rebellion. He goes

12:11

home to Snape. He's then told

12:13

that he needs to go to London to be a

12:16

suitor for his own affairs because the King is not

12:18

happy with him. And so he sets

12:20

out for London, and it's at that point

12:22

that the Commons are not happy with him.

12:24

These pilgrims who've ridden under and marched under

12:26

the badge of the Five Wounds of Christ

12:28

are furious that Latimer has effectively sold them

12:30

out. And they actually go and raid Snape

12:33

castles. They take Catherine and her stepchildren

12:35

hostage. They start inventoring all her goods,

12:38

which means that they're planning to confiscate

12:40

them to take everything away. They

12:42

may well mean considerable harm to Catherine

12:45

and the children. This is probably possibly

12:48

the second most traumatic event of her life,

12:50

and there's more to come, but it's pretty

12:52

traumatic for her. Latimer decides to turn around

12:54

and come back, and he's able to diffuse

12:56

the Commons, luckily. But I mean, if he'd

12:58

continue to London, I think Catherine may well

13:00

have fared very much worse. And I think

13:02

it's at this point where the couple decide

13:04

they're going to move to London, and they

13:06

do. They spend the rest of their marriage

13:08

before Latimer dies at the start of 1543,

13:10

largely in the South. I

13:13

didn't realize there was quite so much turmoil in that

13:15

period for Catherine, and quite so much peril, perhaps. How

13:18

does Latimer's actions in that period, he

13:20

says, carry it away like under duress,

13:23

but duress in maybe air quote marks,

13:26

how is that viewed at court? And does that

13:28

have any kind of repercussions for Catherine herself? Henry

13:31

is not at all happy with

13:33

the rebellion, understandably. But Latimer is

13:35

viewed as particularly poorly. He's actually

13:38

taken to the Tower of London.

13:40

He's released fairly quickly. Potentially, Catherine's

13:43

able to call on some of her

13:45

contacts. I think in general, there's a

13:47

sense that Lord Latimer has been involved,

13:49

but perhaps wasn't entirely guilty. At

13:52

least he was carried off. So there's a

13:54

sense that he hasn't had that much free

13:56

will. I mean, actually, if you are carried

13:58

off by armed in

14:00

the period, you probably are going to do what

14:03

they say. But he's certainly held under suspicion for

14:05

some time. And it's damaging for Catherine. She probably

14:07

doesn't agree with the pilgrims ideals by

14:09

this stage. She probably is in favour of the dissolution

14:12

of the monasteries and the changes to the church. But of course,

14:14

she has to be seen to support her

14:17

husband and she's entirely tied to him. Had

14:19

he been charged for treason and beheaded

14:22

as many of the leads of the

14:24

pilgrimage are, she also would have been

14:26

ruined. So her reputation is tied

14:28

to Latimer. She survives that

14:31

kind of almost harnessing. Latimer passes

14:33

away. She's left a widow again.

14:36

How does she navigate that period

14:38

between being the widow of

14:41

a peer held in suspicion to

14:44

suddenly becoming Queen of England? So

14:47

Catherine, again, going back to her parents,

14:49

she has the court contacts to survive

14:51

this. And she's able to

14:53

call upon Princess Mary. Whenever Henry doesn't have

14:56

a Queen, and he doesn't have

14:58

a Queen in this period, he's beheaded Catherine Howard in

15:00

February 1542. And unsurprisingly,

15:02

few women have been that keen to really put their hat

15:04

in the ring, if you like, to

15:06

become his sick wife. So whenever he doesn't

15:08

have a Queen, he tends to bring Mary

15:10

to court because it's the Queen that supplies

15:13

the women to court. You know, if you've

15:15

got a bachelor King and no woman at

15:17

court, you don't really have any women at

15:19

court. So Mary comes to effectively take the

15:21

role as Queen. She's an adult by that

15:23

stage. So all of the ladies are caught

15:25

up with Mary. She plays the role

15:27

as Queen and Catherine starts to call on Mary. And we

15:30

can sort of, we can see that in the records. And

15:32

it's around that time actually that it's noted

15:35

that Henry starts to call on Mary a

15:37

lot more regularly than he usually does, which,

15:39

you know, he's not the most hands-on of

15:41

fathers. So it does cause some comment. So

15:43

it's really through Mary, I think, that Catherine

15:45

comes to Henry's attention. He's probably known her

15:47

for most of her life. But

15:49

of course, this is one moment where she's

15:51

sort of free and he's free. And he

15:53

clearly quite quickly, possibly even before Lord Latimer's

15:55

death, starts to look at her as a

15:58

potential sixth bride. with

16:00

that marriage when it comes, but

16:02

that have raised eyebrows? Heather He

16:30

is a widow – he can't expect her to be

16:32

a virgin. No-one could reasonably expect her to be a

16:34

virgin. That doesn't apply to her. Widows

16:37

are really the market that Henry is

16:39

looking in. Not

16:42

a sentence I expected to hear. I wonder

16:44

if at this point we could just touch on Thomas

16:46

Seymour very quickly and who he is because he

16:49

is a figure who plays a big part in

16:51

Catherine's life later but also I believe

16:54

they're already acquainted now. They

16:56

are. So Thomas Seymour is the

16:58

brother of Jane Seymour, Henry Yates' third

17:01

wife. So he is Henry Yates' brother-in-law.

17:03

He also comes from a relatively lowly

17:05

background. The Seymour's actually are – they're

17:08

country-gentry. They're very minor

17:10

figures. But the fact that Jane

17:12

dies giving birth to Edward VI,

17:14

the future Edward VI really pushes

17:16

them up. So the Seymour brothers,

17:18

Edward and Thomas, remain very prominent

17:20

at court. He's probably

17:22

broadly Catherine's age, a few years older,

17:25

but quite similar. They have quite similar

17:27

interests. They're both interested in the religious

17:29

reform. Catherine perhaps a bit more sort

17:31

of heartfelt than Thomas. But they're sort

17:33

of natural people

17:35

that would come together to some extent. I

17:38

mean, they're both very good looking. Thomas Seymour

17:40

is renowned for being one of the handsomest

17:42

men at court. He's the most eligible bachelor

17:44

at Henry's court. Catherine is a very attractive

17:47

woman. I think this doesn't get pulled out

17:49

enough really with particularly earlier myths about her,

17:51

sort of this blue stocking that marries the

17:53

king. From her portrait, she's very, very attractive.

17:56

So they clearly know each other. Catherine

17:58

will later write that she wanted to marry

18:00

Thomas Seymour the last time she was free.

18:02

And she writes this to Thomas. And

18:05

of course, the last time she was free was before

18:07

she married Henry VIII. So it appears that the two

18:09

are in a relationship. And it's often

18:11

been asserted that she's a rich widow, and he's

18:14

been quite predatory. He's trying to marry her for

18:16

her money. But I think that doesn't really stack

18:18

up. She's not that rich. Lord

18:20

Latimer hasn't left her that much cash. He

18:22

can do better. The Duke of Norfolk was

18:24

considering marrying his daughter to Thomas Seymour at

18:27

one point, for example. He can certainly make

18:29

a better match than Catherine. So the fact

18:31

that they are involved in each other, I

18:33

think we can see that there is probably

18:36

love or attraction on both sides. And that

18:38

is a complicated thing with Catherine's relationship with

18:40

Thomas. There is undoubted desire on both sides.

18:42

But obviously, we'll talk about it later, but

18:44

it does not necessarily turn out as well

18:47

as they would have hoped. But she does

18:49

seem to involve herself with Thomas Seymour at

18:51

this point. And so it's somewhat horrified when

18:53

Henry VIII really plays his hand. And

18:56

just to clarify something you said there about

18:58

Lord Latimer, kind of like left her somebody,

19:00

but like she's not mega rich. Did she

19:02

need to marry at this point in the

19:04

same way she did after her first marriage?

19:07

Yeah, no, she definitely doesn't need to marry.

19:09

She's wealthy enough to live for the rest

19:11

of her life. She's got life interest in

19:14

some of Lord Latimer's estates. She's got money.

19:16

She's got the court connections as well. This

19:18

is not the same as after the end

19:20

of her first marriage, where she's somewhat in

19:22

dire straits. This time, she could comfortably live

19:24

as a widow. Catherine definitely doesn't need to

19:26

make a third marriage. So again, the fact

19:29

that the King is interested isn't necessarily something

19:31

she's looking for. And yet, here he

19:33

is. Something you mentioned very briefly there was Thomas Seymour

19:35

and Catherine Barr being about the same age. And maybe

19:37

we were able to actually talk about where

19:40

she is in her life. So she's just married Henry.

19:43

What age is she at that point? And what age is he?

19:45

So Catherine marries Henry VIII in July 1543. She's

19:49

been quite reluctant. It was later said that she

19:51

said she'd rather be his mistress than his wife.

19:53

And he thinks she's just being coy. Whether

19:56

that's contemporary or not, I think, is

19:58

debatable. But there's certainly... contemporary

20:00

poem that Henry has sort of scrawled in

20:02

a prayer book that sort of suggests he's

20:04

pushing quite hard to marry this attractive young

20:07

widow. And she is young and

20:09

this quite often gets overlooked. She's 30

20:12

when she marries. She's almost 31 when

20:14

she marries Henry VIII in July 1543.

20:16

So she is a youthful figure. She's

20:18

young, she's attractive. She's also a woman

20:20

potentially who could bear children and actually

20:22

this is why, to some

20:24

extent, the choice of her is quite odd

20:26

by Henry. He's only got one surviving son.

20:28

He's illegitimate his two daughters. So actually only

20:30

Edward is in the line of succession. He

20:33

really could do with a few more baby

20:35

boys sort of shoring up the Tudor royal

20:37

nursery and choosing Catherine who doesn't seem to

20:39

have born any children is quite an odd

20:41

choice and it does again suggest that actually

20:43

is very attracted to her. He is very

20:45

much looking for a wife and the fullest

20:47

sense of the word, something which I think

20:49

also may have been fairly horrifying for Catherine.

20:52

She'll later write that God

20:55

withstood her will at the time and effectively

20:57

persuaded her by God's silence that she should

20:59

become queen. So again, she's not the most

21:01

willing bride. She clearly doesn't want to marry

21:04

Henry VIII. And what do we know about

21:06

her relationship with Henry? Because I think there's

21:08

a kind of like a popular perception that

21:10

by this point, Henry's quite

21:12

corpuscular and she's a bit of a nursemaid

21:14

to him. And I just wonder how true

21:16

to life is that? I mean,

21:18

it's not really. Henry VIII has plenty of

21:21

doctors and, you know, attendance to deal with

21:23

his leg room. And, you know, he is

21:25

not in his prime by this stage by

21:27

any means. He's got an open ulcer on

21:29

his leg that he's had for some years,

21:31

which cannot have been very pleasant to be around.

21:34

I imagine it also affected his mood to a

21:36

considerable extent, because of course it would have been

21:38

very, very painful. He's rapidly gained

21:40

weight. He's not very mobile. Towards the end

21:42

of his reign, he'll need to be winched

21:44

onto his horse and sort of winched up

21:47

the stairs. You know, he's only in his

21:49

fifties, but actually he's not

21:51

looked after himself. But he doesn't need Catherine

21:53

to be his nurse. He doesn't need to

21:55

marry his nurse. So again, it's a bit

21:57

of a Victorian myth that we have a

21:59

sort of suit. his leg in her lap

22:01

and sort of bandaging it. Actually, he is

22:03

expecting a physical marriage. Whether he is able

22:05

to achieve that or not, there have been

22:07

rumours about Henry's virility since his marriage to

22:09

Anne Boleyn, but certainly he's attracted to Catherine.

22:12

He's hoping that she'll be his wife in

22:14

the fullest sense of the word and perhaps

22:16

they'll have children. So also during the period

22:18

of marriage, and this is a word you've

22:20

mentioned a couple of times, is Catherine writes

22:22

of things later on. And one

22:24

side to it that we haven't discussed yet is

22:26

that actually she is an author. And

22:28

I wonder if you could speak a bit about that side of her. Yeah,

22:31

so absolutely. So Catherine is a very

22:33

reluctant queen. But when she

22:35

becomes queen, she embraces it and she

22:37

embraces the opportunities this affords her. And

22:41

one of this is in her writing. She

22:43

is the first English woman to publish a

22:45

book under her own name, which I think

22:47

is an achievement that really should be shouted

22:49

from the rooftops. It's perhaps not as widely

22:51

known as it should be. She publishes in

22:54

1545 her prayers or meditations, which is a

22:56

religious work. It's a collection of, I mean,

22:58

it says exactly what it is, it's a

23:00

collection of prayers and meditations. She

23:03

must have achieved Henry's permission to publish

23:05

it, which means that it is not

23:07

as radical as I suspect she wanted

23:09

to be. It's quite conventional in its

23:12

tone. You really have to sort of

23:14

read between the lines to spot any

23:16

reformist faith in prayers or

23:18

meditations. She doesn't make any

23:20

appeals to the saints. And that's quite interesting

23:23

because of course, traditional religion, you very much

23:25

would appeal to the saints. So the fact

23:27

that they're omitted, I think we can see

23:29

reformist beliefs, but she has to be very

23:31

careful. Henry VIII is actually quite proud of

23:34

the fact that she's written this book. It

23:36

certainly allows her to publish it. Catherine purchased

23:38

this presentation copies for her relatives

23:40

and her friends. Henry VIII,

23:42

of course, owns a copy. In fact, his

23:45

daughter Elizabeth will later translate the book into

23:47

several languages and present it to Henry as

23:49

a New Year's gift. So he clearly approves

23:51

of this book. And I

23:53

mean, it's interesting in itself because it shows

23:56

this woman writing this book for herself. She's

23:58

thinking about religion. But it's certainly not her

24:00

most radical of works, and she will save

24:02

that to be published after Henry's death. But

24:05

we know that she must have been writing

24:07

this book during his lifetime. It's

24:09

her Lamentation of a Sinner, which is her

24:11

most famous work. And this is overtly Protestant.

24:14

If we didn't think she was a Protestant

24:16

by this stage, she's certainly a Protestant when

24:18

she's writing Lamentation of a Sinner. It's

24:21

very inwardly reflective.

24:23

She talks about her

24:25

conversion experience, and in quite a broad term, I

24:27

mean, I'd like to know more details from her.

24:29

But in quite broad terms, she speaks about her

24:31

conversion, the personal relationship she has

24:33

with God. And she sort of abases herself.

24:35

She calls herself a sinner. She's

24:38

not worthy. She also talks about

24:40

the fact that she would give up everything

24:42

she has, all her jewels, her dresses, to

24:45

bring one person over to the true church.

24:47

I mean, I suspect she wouldn't, in that

24:49

Catherine loves her clothing. Her accounts are full

24:51

of very rich fabrics. But again, it demonstrates

24:53

just how inwardly her piety is. She's clearly

24:56

really, really thinking about religion. And

24:58

she wants to convert people. She wants

25:00

to tell her story. It's an evangelical

25:02

text. She must have written this

25:05

during Henry VIII's reign, or substantially so, because

25:07

it's published not long after his death. But

25:09

it's certainly not a book that he would

25:11

ever give permission for her to publish. And

25:13

actually, it's quite dangerous that she had the

25:15

manuscript at all during his lifetime. What

25:18

was the reaction to that book

25:20

being released? Lamentation

25:23

is released in the reign of Edward VI

25:25

when we get the proper Protestant Reformation in

25:27

England. Henry has, of course, broken

25:29

with Rome. He's made some changes to the

25:31

traditional church, particularly publishing the Bible in English.

25:34

Although he does backtrack, actually, during his marriage

25:36

to Catherine, he passes a law that makes

25:38

it illegal for women to read the Bible

25:40

in English, for example, and lower status men.

25:43

So he does backtrack. But under

25:45

Edward VI, thanks to Archbishop Thomas

25:48

Crammer, and also Edward Seymour, James

25:50

Seymour's brother, the Protestant Reformation really

25:53

gets going. The churches are whitewashed. The bells are

25:55

removed. The altars are taken out. You have to

25:57

have a communion table in the center of the

25:59

church. So actually in that

26:01

context, Catherine's book is very much seen

26:03

as an achievement. The circle she moves

26:05

in, people are interested in it. It's

26:07

seen as one of the

26:09

monuments of the religious reform. It's less

26:11

clear how widely read it would be

26:14

among the general population, and certainly at

26:16

that stage, most of

26:18

Edward's subjects probably aren't Protestant. Although London

26:21

and Norwich, the two major cities, are

26:23

absolutely full of Protestants by this stage,

26:25

as are the universities. But it is

26:27

seen as an interesting statement,

26:29

a remarkable statement of feminine piety. And obviously as

26:32

a woman in the Tudor period, women are always

26:34

second-class citizens in the Tudor period. People listen less

26:36

to the words of women. But it is seen

26:38

as a remarkable achievement. And I think Lamentation of

26:41

a Sinner is the

26:43

achievement that Catherine would want to be remembered for.

26:45

So obviously it's not a book that

26:47

Henry himself would have condoned, and it

26:49

wasn't published in his lifetime. But as

26:51

I understand it, there was some part

26:53

of her, kind of like her writing

26:55

that did draw some ire from Henry.

26:58

So again, she's famously the wife that survived

27:00

Henry. But I think had he

27:02

lived much longer, it's possible that she wouldn't be.

27:05

And the marriage does get into trouble

27:07

based on her religious belief. So Henry

27:10

is very, very far from being a

27:12

Protestant. He's not really a Catholic either,

27:14

but he's closer to Catholicism. I mean,

27:17

he's more of a schismatic than

27:19

a heretic, as far as people of the time

27:21

would view it. Catherine seems to have

27:23

viewed her queenship as God's will. You know, when

27:25

she says, God withstood my will, she seems to

27:28

think she has a higher purpose. And it may

27:30

be that she thinks that's to convert Henry VIII.

27:33

There's an account written not long after Catherine's death

27:35

that talks about, you know, she would got into

27:37

the habit of debating him while he was ill

27:39

in bed, and, you know, and she'd be challenging

27:41

his religious beliefs. And one day

27:43

she leaves the room and he turns to the

27:46

people with him and says, you know, massively paraphrasing

27:48

with sort of complaints, you know, that he's been

27:50

taught by his wife in his old age and

27:52

how women have become such doctoresses. And

27:54

Them Gardner, Risley, the Lord

27:57

Chancellor, used this as a

27:59

way to try to... bring Catherine down.

28:01

They persuade Henry to draw up an

28:03

arrest warrant for her for heresy. She

28:05

almost certainly is guilty of heresy. She's

28:08

been probably involved with Anne Askew, who

28:10

is a Lincolnshire woman who is thrown

28:12

out of her house and then goes

28:15

south preaching the gospel. And she's been

28:17

arrested and actually tortured in the Tower

28:19

of London by the Lord Chancellor, who

28:21

actually turns the rack himself, to try

28:23

to get information on her connections with

28:25

Catherine and some of the ladies of

28:27

court. She doesn't give much

28:29

away, but there's a clear connection with

28:31

Catherine and her household. And Anne's actually

28:33

then burned at the stake. So there's

28:35

clearly movements against Catherine.

28:39

It's a very odd plot against Catherine. The

28:41

arrest warrant is drawn up, but it's then

28:43

dropped outside the door of her chambers. So

28:45

it's of course brought to her. Earlier in

28:47

the day, Henry has actually confessed what's happening

28:50

to his doctor, Dr. Wendy. But then Catherine

28:52

becomes hysterical when she reads this document, as

28:54

you can imagine. Henry is of course beheaded

28:56

two queens before her. Henry hears her crying

28:58

and says, oh, Dr. Wendy, I think the

29:00

queen's ill. Would you mind going to see

29:02

her to see if she's okay? So Dr.

29:05

Wendy of course goes to Catherine and goes,

29:07

okay, this is what's happening. You need to

29:09

go to the king and

29:11

persuade him that you're not a

29:13

heretic and that you haven't been

29:15

trying to convert him to Protestantism.

29:17

So Catherine composes herself, goes

29:19

to the king, and the king immediately tries to draw her

29:21

into a religious debate. So he says, oh, there's a point

29:23

of doctrine that I need you to clear up for me,

29:25

Catherine. What do you think it is? And she immediately

29:28

goes in sort of full little wife mode. She

29:30

says, well, I just couldn't possibly

29:32

teach your majesty. I'm just a

29:34

woman. And Henry goes, well, of

29:36

course you can. You've been debating me for ages.

29:39

And again, I'm massively paraphrasing here. And she

29:41

says, if I have debated with you, it's

29:43

only to try to soothe your pain and

29:45

your sickness. So take your mind off your

29:47

sickness and also potentially to learn from you.

29:50

So, you know, again, she

29:52

really sort of debases herself before her husband.

29:54

And he says, well, in that case, we

29:56

are true friends again. He

29:58

doesn't tell Risley. that

30:00

he's made up with Catherine, and he and Catherine

30:02

are then walking in the gardens the next day,

30:04

and Risley arrives with some soldiers to arrest her.

30:07

Henry then starts kicking Risley and calling him

30:09

a knave, and Catherine very sweetly tries to

30:11

intercede for Risley, saying, well, I

30:13

don't know how he's offended you, but please don't do that,

30:16

only for Henry to say, if you knew what

30:18

he'd done, you wouldn't say that. So it's such

30:21

a weird incident, and I think we can't take

30:23

it fully at face value. I mean, if Henry

30:25

had wanted to execute Catherine, he very easily could

30:27

have done. It looks very much

30:29

like a test for her, or attempt to put

30:31

her back into her place, to get her to

30:33

stop debating about religion, to stop being so openly

30:36

Protestant, and I think that probably is the purpose

30:38

of it. He doesn't want to replace her, but

30:41

he's not happy with her. And

30:43

actually, for the rest of the reign, this happens in 1546,

30:47

not only a few months before

30:49

Henry dies, and actually the relationship

30:51

between them doesn't seem to be

30:53

particularly good for the final months

30:55

of his reign. Certainly she's

30:57

excluded from his deathbed, she's sent away, and

30:59

actually I found some records demonstrating that that

31:02

December, she does attempt to go to the

31:04

King of Westminster, he's a Whitehall palace. She

31:06

actually loads everything into her barges and tries

31:08

to get in to see him and is

31:11

turned away. So the relationship

31:13

clearly isn't that good between them, and

31:15

I think potentially had Henry lived longer

31:18

and had better health, he may well

31:20

have considered replacing her. I

31:22

suspect it's simply in 1546 he doesn't have

31:24

another candidate in mind. It was

31:26

mistrust. Maybe Henry replaced her. Had he lived

31:28

longer or he had another candidate, but he

31:30

didn't, he passes away. So

31:32

what happens to Catherine now

31:35

that she's a widow a third time? So

31:37

Catherine is not with Henry when he dies,

31:39

and he's very much cloistered away with his

31:42

council, particularly his secretary, Sir William Padgett, who

31:44

he's quite close to. He changes

31:46

his will in December, and

31:48

there are some doubts over the validity of the will.

31:50

It may or may not have been signed with a

31:53

stamp of his signature rather than the King's own hand,

31:56

but it does seem to have represented what he wanted. And

31:59

instead of leaving the court, Catherine as a regent.

32:01

He doesn't in fact appoint a regent, he creates

32:03

a council of 16 equal ranking executives

32:05

to his will who are going to rule England

32:08

during Edward's minority, because Edward is of course only

32:10

nine years old. It's probably unworkable,

32:12

there's no head to this council. So

32:14

he's expecting these 16 quite diverse individuals

32:17

to work together. But what's very telling

32:19

is Catherine is entirely excluded, he no

32:21

longer wants her to be involved in

32:23

the governance of England. Catherine

32:26

probably doesn't know about this will. The

32:28

problem for Catherine is that she

32:31

isn't Edward's mother at the end of the

32:33

day. She's been a loving stepmother to him.

32:35

She's raised him during the years of her

32:37

marriage, she calls her his good mother. But

32:39

of course she isn't his mother. And so

32:41

his uncle Edward Seymour, as Duke of Somerset,

32:43

is able to overturn the will and have

32:45

himself appointed as law protector. So Catherine is

32:47

very firmly out. She's excluded

32:49

from power, she's even excluded

32:52

from the presence of Edward, her young

32:54

steps, she's not even allowed to see

32:56

him. She's expected to do

32:58

what disenfranchised Dowager Queen's doing, that's

33:00

go to the countryside and sort

33:02

of stay there really. Catherine's

33:04

left beyond power it

33:06

seems, does she go to the country? So

33:09

she doesn't go to the country and

33:11

she's not the only person excluded from

33:14

power. So Catherine retires to her Dowerhouses,

33:16

Chelsea and Hamworth, mainly in Chelsea in

33:18

this period, which isn't that far from

33:20

the centre of power of course. Her

33:23

former suitor Thomas Seymour, who is the

33:25

King's younger uncle, is also excluded from

33:27

power. He's sort of paid off if

33:29

you like, he's given the title of

33:31

Baron Seymour of Sudley and he's created

33:33

Lord High Abmell of England, although he's

33:35

not actually very good at sailing. But

33:38

he's also not given any power. He wants

33:40

to share power. He tries to find precedence

33:42

to show that if the King has two

33:44

uncles then they should share the role. One

33:46

should be Lord Protector and one should be

33:48

Governor of the King. He wants to take

33:50

control of the King, but he's very much

33:52

pushed out of power. So we

33:55

have these two disenfranchised individuals, Catherine

33:57

and Thomas, and both are highly

33:59

aggrieved. at the way the

34:01

Regency has fallen. And so they sort

34:03

of naturally gravitate towards each other in

34:06

this period. And I mean,

34:08

you alluded to that they'd had this kind

34:10

of love match almost early on, but it

34:12

didn't quite work out how

34:15

they hoped it would. Can we tell a

34:17

bit about our story now? Yeah, so what

34:19

we know about the relationship between Thomas

34:21

and Catherine in 1543 comes

34:24

through Catherine's letters to Thomas in

34:26

1547. And

34:28

she mentions that she would have married him

34:30

the last time she was free. And there

34:32

is evidence that Henry's sort of tried to

34:34

get him out of the way to clear

34:36

the field. Thomas is sent off to be

34:39

an ambassador, for example. There's no scandal between

34:41

them during Catherine's reign. So they're clearly staying

34:43

far enough apart that no one is sort

34:45

of suggesting that they may be having an

34:47

affair and they're not, as far as we

34:49

can tell. But they do become reacquainted quite

34:51

quickly. There is some evidence that Thomas

34:53

Seymour is not initially that keen to

34:56

return to Catherine Parr. He's looking at

34:58

first for a royal bride. There's evidence

35:00

that he asks his brother if he

35:02

can marry Princess Mary. And his

35:04

brother, the protector, says, you know, we are

35:06

not born to marry princesses. And then he

35:08

says, actually, in any way, I know she

35:10

wouldn't accept you. And actually, that's true. I

35:13

think Princess Mary would not have accepted Thomas

35:15

Seymour. There's also some evidence that he then

35:17

turns towards the younger princess, Princess Elizabeth, who's

35:19

actually only 13 years old. There's a somewhat

35:21

dubious letter that sort of suggests that he

35:23

proposes marriage to her. Whether or

35:25

not that's true is difficult to say.

35:27

Although Elizabeth's governess, Kate Ashley, will later

35:30

refer to Thomas as her old suitor,

35:32

which suggests there may have been something

35:34

between the pair of them. He

35:37

is, if he does propose to Elizabeth, she

35:39

turns him down. And he then turns back

35:41

to Catherine Parr because she's sort of the

35:43

next best royal match that he can hope

35:45

for. And they do have this previous relationship.

35:47

Catherine is clearly very passionate about Thomas. We

35:49

can see it in the letters. And as

35:52

far as we can tell, he's in love

35:54

with her, but not in a disinterested way.

35:56

So at this stage in his career, he

35:58

wouldn't have married her if she... wasn't the

36:00

queen. So, you know, there is attraction there, but

36:02

he's also looking to increase his position. And I

36:05

think that's something that Catherine hasn't recognized. You know,

36:07

she's been married three times before, but they've all

36:09

been arranged marriages. This is her first attempt to

36:11

choose for herself, and she's perhaps not very good

36:14

at it. She marries Thomas

36:16

Seymour in secret very soon after Henry Yates' death.

36:18

We don't know exactly when, but it was later

36:20

said that it was so soon that had she

36:22

conceived a child, the succession would have been in

36:24

jeopardy because they couldn't have proved whose child it

36:27

was. It could have been Henry Yates, it could

36:29

have been Thomas Seymour's. So they clearly get married

36:31

quite early. And they then need

36:33

to attempt to publicize the marriage because actually

36:35

they haven't got permission from the king. They

36:37

should have got permission from the king. Protector

36:39

Somerset refuses his permission. In fact, his wife

36:42

really hates Catherine Parr. She tries to take

36:44

precedence over her in this period. They sort

36:46

of fight as they go through doorways to

36:48

get through the door first. She's also reported

36:50

to have said that, you know, she's not

36:52

giving way to Catherine Parr because Henry Yates

36:54

only married her and is doted anyway. So

36:56

it's all very tense. Catherine actually later writes

36:58

a letter where she says that if she'd

37:00

been standing closer to the Lord Protector, she would

37:02

have bitten him. She was so angry. So

37:05

Thomas instead decides, let's go to the king.

37:07

Let's ask the king for permission. So he

37:09

has a friend in the king's household who

37:11

he's able to persuade to speak to Edward

37:14

on his behalf. And he first of all says,

37:16

you know, oh, you know, who do you think

37:18

that your uncle, Thomas Seymour should marry? And

37:21

Edward goes, oh, my sister Mary to change

37:23

her opinions, because of course she's a Catholic. And

37:25

then he says, oh, no, actually, Anne of

37:27

Cleves, who's Henry Yates' fourth wife, who's still

37:29

very much alive. And it's only

37:31

really further pushing with Thomas sort of sending

37:33

messages saying, you know, don't you think it

37:35

would be a good idea for Thomas to

37:38

marry Catherine Parr that the king is persuaded?

37:40

But they make it sound to Edward as

37:42

though it's his idea. So he fully supports

37:44

the marriage. He's only nine years old, but

37:46

he's still the king. And so Protector Somerset

37:49

can't go against Edward if he supports the

37:51

marriage. So it's able to be publicized, but

37:53

it is another blow to the relationship between

37:55

Thomas and Catherine and Edward Seymour

37:57

and his wife. The two brothers relationship is never.

38:00

healed from this point. SL. Does that

38:02

have any particular repercussions for Catherine herself?

38:04

JG. It does. I mean, it

38:06

very firmly puts her on the party that is

38:08

hostile to the Protector, which I think he knew

38:11

she would be anyway. On a personal level, the

38:13

Protector confiscates her jewellery. It's been stored in the

38:15

Tower of London for safekeeping, but he won't give

38:17

it back. It's clearly quite vindictive to hold on

38:19

to some of these jewels or all of these

38:21

jewels, and it will be a point of contention

38:23

for the rest of her life. She

38:26

remains excluded from power. She's still

38:28

not really able to see Edward

38:30

or to correspond to any great

38:32

extent to Edward. Princess Mary is

38:34

furious when she hears about the marriage

38:36

and actually the two do fall out for

38:38

some time. It's really only with Elizabeth that

38:40

Catherine remains on good terms of her royal

38:42

stepchildren. SL. I wonder if we

38:45

could dwell a little bit on the relationship

38:47

between Catherine and the Princess of Elizabeth. You

38:49

alluded to it earlier, the way that Thomas

38:52

Seymour perhaps approaches

38:54

her. JG. Yeah. So Elizabeth

38:57

is 13 years old, so she's a

38:59

bit young to be sort of out

39:01

by herself in her own household. So

39:03

she lives with Catherine, which seems natural

39:05

enough. Catherine's her stepmother. She's raised her.

39:07

The two are very, very close. Catherine

39:09

probably doesn't know about Thomas' proposal to

39:11

her stepdaughter. I think it would be

39:13

unlikely that she would bring them both

39:16

together if she did. Thomas

39:18

Seymour, however, is quite quickly quite inappropriate

39:20

towards Elizabeth, of course, it's quite well

39:22

known today. He starts by sort

39:24

of coming into her bedchamber early in the morning and

39:26

trying to climb into the bed and

39:28

sort of tickling her. He will come

39:30

bare-legged and in his slippers, according to

39:32

one account. He's very inappropriate with Elizabeth.

39:35

And there are some incidents where Catherine

39:37

is involved. So she sometimes joins in

39:40

the early morning trying to get into

39:42

the bed and tickling. There's another incident

39:44

where Elizabeth is in the gardens of

39:47

Hanworth, which is one of Catherine's dower

39:49

houses. And Catherine actually holds her while

39:51

Thomas Seymour slashes her dress to pieces

39:54

with his dagger. So Catherine is involved.

39:57

I think it's difficult to reconcile with

39:59

this image of this religious and

40:01

devoted queen. And I think the

40:03

way to do it is we have

40:05

to look at the status of women

40:08

in the period. Married women, even queens,

40:10

have no independent legal status. So everything

40:12

Catherine owns belongs to Thomas Seymour. She's

40:14

not an independent figure when she's married

40:16

to Thomas. He's also head of her

40:18

household. So he's effectively Elizabeth's stepfather. He's

40:20

in charge. You can't lock doors against

40:22

Thomas. He owns the household. And

40:25

I think he's quite an abusive husband. And we

40:27

can see this in some of the accounts. He

40:29

clearly takes all of her money into his own

40:31

hands. He has her officers pay her revenues over

40:33

to him. There's also an account that

40:35

he's an oppressor in the household. And that

40:38

comes from Elizabeth's servants, which is sort of

40:40

an interesting choice of word. There's another account

40:42

where Catherine is in a room by herself

40:44

when a male groom comes in to tend

40:46

the fire. And while he's in the room,

40:48

the door shuts. And when Thomas hears that

40:51

she's been in a room with a man

40:53

by herself, he's absolutely furious and flies into

40:55

a rage. So my reading of

40:57

it is actually that, actually it's quite difficult

40:59

for her to take action against Thomas. He

41:02

is in charge of her. He can do what

41:04

he likes with her and her household. And

41:06

perhaps actually involving herself, at least it

41:08

does chaperone Elizabeth to some extent. He's

41:11

not likely to do anything too awful

41:13

to Elizabeth while she's there. She doesn't

41:15

come out of the Elizabeth and Thomas

41:17

situation very well. But I think in

41:19

the period that probably is the best

41:21

she can manage. It's

41:23

definitely a darker episode, it seems. And

41:25

it does occur quite towards

41:27

the end of her life. I'm pretty sure

41:30

she doesn't live for very long afterwards. But

41:32

I wonder what of Catherine's own passing? So

41:35

Catherine shocks everyone, probably mostly her,

41:37

by falling pregnant towards the end

41:40

of 1547. As

41:42

far as we know, she's never had a

41:44

previous pregnancy. She may have done and it

41:46

hasn't been recorded, but she certainly hasn't had

41:48

a surviving child. And she

41:50

is deliriously happy. We

41:52

have letters written to Thomas talking about feeling

41:54

the baby kick. She has a made line

41:56

in her bed with her and they both

41:58

feel the baby move. They talk about

42:00

their little nave, they're clear it's going to be

42:02

a boy, and they talk about how he's going

42:05

to revenge them against the protector later on. So

42:07

they're still dwelling on the fact they've

42:09

been excluded from power. But she's clearly very

42:11

excited. She talks about her diet and her

42:13

exercise because she wants this pregnancy to be

42:15

healthy because of course she's an older mother

42:18

for the period. She's in her late 30s

42:20

by this day and every pregnancy is dangerous

42:22

in Tudor England. Not

42:24

long before the household moved to Sudley Castle,

42:26

they decide to go there because it is

42:29

Thomas's baronial seat. She actually seems

42:31

to have come upon Elizabeth and Thomas

42:34

embracing and sends Elizabeth away.

42:36

So Elizabeth isn't with them and they

42:38

go to Sudley. She spends the summer

42:40

preparing for the birth and

42:42

at the end of August 1548 she

42:44

gives birth to a daughter. So she doesn't have

42:46

the little nave she was hoping for. In fact,

42:49

Protector Somerset writes a letter to Thomas congratulating him

42:51

but saying, you know, I'm a bit disappointed it

42:53

was a girl and not a boy and I'm

42:55

sure you are too. But you know,

42:57

I mean, it's an apparently healthy baby. They

42:59

name her Mary after Princess Mary

43:02

who Catherine has been reconciled to.

43:04

But unfortunately for Catherine and it's very,

43:07

very common in the period. She falls

43:09

ill very shortly after the birth. Childbed

43:11

fever or peripheral fever. I mean,

43:14

doctors in the period don't wash their hands.

43:16

They don't understand hygiene. It's very, very common.

43:18

Jane Seymour of course has died in childbirth.

43:20

Henryate's mother, Elizabeth of York has also died

43:22

in childbirth. A lot of women do. She

43:25

spends some time quite delirious by

43:27

all accounts. There are accounts of

43:29

her criticising Thomas on her deathbed, you

43:31

know, saying that she's had many shrewd taunts

43:33

directed at her, saying that he wishes her

43:35

ill. It's not a comfortable or a good

43:37

death really for Catherine. I think that's very

43:40

tragic. You know, she doesn't go peacefully. She

43:42

dies at the beginning of September 1548 at

43:44

Sudley Castle in Gloucestershire, a

43:46

place that she doesn't have that much connection to.

43:49

So she also dies quite far away from home.

43:51

So it's quite a sad end. We

43:53

started by saying Catherine Parr is the

43:56

most married Tudor queen.

43:59

Can you leave on the phone? listeners have a sense of

44:01

how we should remember past today. Yes.

44:04

Of course, she's the most married cheetah queen,

44:06

but I think what we should remember her

44:08

for are absolutely her achievements. I think it

44:11

always sets my teeth on edge when people talk about

44:13

feminists in the 16th century because there's no feminism. They

44:15

all come from a context

44:17

that women are inferior to men. That's the

44:20

life they've been brought up in. That's what

44:22

they know. I think she

44:24

does set the path of women moving.

44:26

She does demonstrate that a

44:29

woman can be an author, that a

44:31

woman can be a powerful figure. I

44:33

think a biding legacy is undoubtedly Elizabeth

44:35

I. She's not Elizabeth's mother. Her mother

44:37

is Amberlynn. She's not the woman that

44:40

carries out her daily care. That's Kate

44:42

Ashley or Blanche Parry. But Catherine is

44:44

the woman who really takes Elizabeth on.

44:46

She didn't have to do it. I

44:49

think Elizabeth is always grateful to Catherine for

44:51

the care she takes of her, but also

44:53

the fact that she demonstrates to Elizabeth just

44:55

how powerful a figure a woman can be.

44:57

I think when we see the queenship of

44:59

Elizabeth I, I think we look back and

45:01

we can see echoes of Catherine. I think

45:03

that's her legacy. Elizabeth

45:07

Norton is a historian and author who

45:09

specializes in the Queens of England and

45:11

the Tudor period. She is

45:13

also a historical consultant, most

45:15

recently on the film Firebrand,

45:17

which dramatizes Catherine Parr's relationship

45:20

with Henry VIII. Thanks

45:23

for listening to today's Life of the Week. Be

45:26

sure to join us again next time to

45:28

learn about another fascinating figure from

45:30

the past.