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fascinating historical conversations from the

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makers of BBC history magazine

1:01

Yesterday the second half of

1:03

Bridgerton series 3 dropped on

1:05

Netflix It's the period

1:08

drama that everyone is talking about

1:10

and as always many of the scenes that have

1:12

attracted the most attention Take

1:15

place in ballrooms But

1:17

how accurate are the dance scenes in the

1:19

show? what was it really

1:21

like to dance the night away at a

1:23

Regency ball and How do

1:25

you make historical dance moves exciting

1:28

for modern viewers? Well,

1:30

Emily Briffitt spoke to Bridgerton's choreographer

1:32

and movement director Jack Murphy to

1:35

find out She began

1:37

by asking Jack about his experience working

1:39

on the show working on

1:41

Bridgerton It's just smorgasbord of experiences

1:43

to say the very least It's

1:46

an extraordinary honor and I accept it as

1:48

an honor the notoriety of this show is

1:50

second to none in terms of my experience

1:53

And I welcome it. I love it. I

1:55

really like it. I've really Really

1:58

battled with my consciousness working

2:00

on Bridgerton because I

2:02

always like to start from a place

2:04

of great integrity to the

2:06

historian. I like to start from

2:08

the place where I'm informed. I

2:10

start from that place but I

2:13

have to be honest that I'm working in

2:16

the world of drama and I'm working in

2:18

the world where it's an adaptation. We're gonna

2:20

have a very very modern audience and so

2:23

that in itself has

2:25

been over the three seasons and

2:27

indeed the spin-off. A

2:30

wonderfully creative process because

2:33

I'm allowed by the producers,

2:35

the writers to be progressive

2:37

and I'm allowed to be

2:40

non-historical but

2:42

at the same time retain the integrity

2:44

of why those people were dancing in

2:47

shall we say other season is 1813

2:49

so obviously within the Regency period and

2:51

I was able to fuse the two

2:53

worlds keeping the integrity of my understanding

2:56

of 19th century dance which is

2:58

very much connected to the etiquette

3:00

so that's been very very exciting.

3:02

Well this may be the dreaded question but I feel like

3:04

I really got to ask you this. How

3:07

accurate are the dances in Bridgerton? So

3:09

the configuration of the dances that were very

3:11

popular in Regency primarily

3:13

were long ways progressive and they

3:15

would call those for as many

3:17

as will. If you had a partner

3:19

you could get up and you could join the line. There

3:22

are two types of long ways progressive

3:24

dance they are jupy minor and triple

3:26

minor. Basically jupy minor means two couples

3:28

and triple minor means three couples and

3:31

I have used primarily jupy minor because

3:34

it's very simple. I don't get

3:37

the time to teach the actors what

3:39

would be a triple minor which is

3:41

a dance for three couples. The complexity

3:43

of these patterns is off the scale

3:46

and even when

3:48

I work with dancers it still blows

3:50

their mind and I'm talking about principal

3:53

dancers. So I start with configuration and

3:55

again a quadrille as you know we

3:57

derive a lot of the names of

4:00

our dances from the French because what was happening,

4:02

you know, during the regency we were going over

4:04

to France and having little battles with people. So

4:07

we liked their fashions, and we liked their food,

4:09

and we liked their language, we brought all that

4:11

back and kept it. So

4:13

when I'm teaching I don't use any

4:15

accuracy at all because I'm not teaching

4:18

people to dance, to retain

4:20

a regency dance. So

4:22

the configuration of Audreaux and

4:25

configuration of the long

4:27

ways progressive is very, very accurate.

4:29

And if I want to use

4:31

any a jig or a reel,

4:33

okay, so they're accurate and they

4:36

tend to be used in order,

4:38

so their rhythms, they're used in

4:40

order to create geology depending

4:42

on what's written on the script.

4:44

I don't choreograph a dance for

4:47

my benefit, I choreograph a dance

4:49

in order to express the consequences

4:51

of the situation that are happening

4:53

on the page to bring it

4:55

to life. But what I

4:58

have done with both the quadrille and

5:00

what I have done with the long

5:02

ways progressive is I've developed them. So

5:05

what I mean by that is I'm

5:07

not frightened of putting in pirouettes and

5:09

I'm not frightened of putting in steps

5:13

in order so that the actors

5:15

or the characters can feature more

5:17

than what's in the dance. A

5:19

lot of people will know quadrills,

5:21

a lot of people know quotilians

5:23

that obviously you have four couples,

5:25

you have eight people dancing and

5:27

you have a top set and

5:29

a side set, but producers are

5:31

not interested. So why I say

5:34

develop, I develop it for the

5:36

eye. So whilst a top

5:38

couple of dancing and a side

5:40

couple are watching, producers and directors

5:42

quite often say, could the people

5:44

standing still do more please? And

5:47

of course it's my responsibility to

5:49

please. I'm not there

5:51

to give them a history lesson, say we've

5:53

now done that, even though it's a case

5:56

of saying sure, but within the construct

5:58

of a quadrille. and

6:00

taking into account that we have a

6:02

top couple, this is what the side couple could do.

6:04

Is that okay? I would develop

6:07

an accurate quadrille and then

6:09

I would develop an accurate long-range progressive

6:11

in order for the purposes of filming,

6:14

not for a documentary, in order

6:16

to tell a story. Now

6:18

you've mentioned a few different dances there and a

6:20

few different sources. I wonder, could you tell us

6:22

what were the sort of top dances of the Regency

6:25

period and how do we know about them? Well,

6:27

as you can see me, okay, this

6:30

is the first book that I ever

6:32

started using, which are the Playford Ball,

6:34

103 Old English Country Dances, and this

6:37

is my Bible, okay? And

6:39

they're not just Regency dances, so I've

6:41

opened it and there's a fabulous, I

6:43

can't believe it's opened right on the

6:46

hole in the wall, okay, which is

6:48

a very, very beautiful dance. These books

6:50

come with the instructions of the dance.

6:52

So that's one place, that's one source,

6:54

which is absolutely

6:57

marvellous. But before that,

6:59

in my studying, there's the wonderful

7:01

historical dance of the 12th to

7:03

19th century by Melisene Wood, who

7:06

did so much hard work, so

7:08

much research. In season one of

7:10

Bridgeton, only because I knew

7:13

it would work really well, I used

7:15

Mr. Beveridge's maggot, which is not, I

7:17

know, a Regency dance, it predates it,

7:20

but it's a very,

7:22

very beautiful, and it allowed me

7:24

to show, the

7:26

director had said, I want to see it looking

7:28

like a line dance. I was

7:30

thinking, yeah. So I remember it

7:32

being expansive, trying to be expansive. So

7:34

that's the only reason I used Mr.

7:36

Beveridge's maggot, but I also knew it

7:38

worked very, very well. So

7:41

that's a very popular dance, even

7:43

though it's not strictly a Regency

7:45

dance, it is a popular dance

7:47

that's danced on costume dramas. But

7:50

I think the dances that they absolutely

7:52

loved were very much jigs and reels.

7:55

They love to get

7:57

hot and sweaty, and

7:59

that they like... excitement because they were

8:01

very young, very, very young. And

8:04

so these dances where those patterns

8:06

were skipping in, which would either

8:08

be a reel or a particularly

8:10

a jig, like a trip

8:12

to Highgate. So there'd be a combination of

8:14

walking and skipping and the patterns. They were,

8:16

I think, the favourite because they'll get it's

8:19

when the young women could get away from the

8:21

chaperones. So they didn't want

8:23

to be slow. They wanted to get their

8:25

heart rate going and

8:28

get a little bit excited

8:30

about the whole process. I

8:32

think that's really just, we're so

8:34

used to seeing in the costume

8:36

dramas and films, perhaps historical dances

8:38

looking quite stately and not as

8:40

lively as that. Yeah, I

8:43

think that's again, just choice of

8:45

realisation of the situation in a

8:47

scene. But I think

8:50

if you were to go and look at,

8:52

for example, Joe Wright's production of his

8:55

film of Pride and Witches and watch The Fabulous Gorilla

8:57

by Jay Gibson, it's packed. It's

8:59

absolutely packed. And I get a

9:02

sense from reading the books and

9:04

reading the letters. That's very accurate.

9:06

The dances were very,

9:08

very lively. You've got to understand

9:11

these people were walking daily. The

9:13

level of activity, physical activity was

9:15

far greater than we know. We've

9:18

got to place it in context.

9:21

So it's sedately is very much

9:23

so in Britain when it's romance

9:25

and when we're heightening the stakes,

9:27

we get slow and romantic or

9:30

rhombusque. And often these costume dramas

9:32

are to do with love and

9:34

they are to do with the

9:36

two leads conflicting. So dancelets us

9:39

enter into that activity and it

9:41

highlights the conflict between them. But

9:43

the accuracy is there's an awful

9:46

lot of uptempo numbers in that

9:48

playford. That's an interesting dynamic.

9:50

As you've said, we kind

9:52

of were used to seeing costume dramas, this moment

9:54

of intimacy perhaps between a couple as they dance.

9:57

Do you think that during dancing these

10:00

moments of conversation, but also intimate moments

10:02

in terms of touch and things like

10:04

that. Well, you get very clearly in Pride of

10:06

Prejudice when she says, I think we should have a little

10:09

conversation, Mr Darcy. So that does let

10:11

us know that obviously to

10:13

be polite, to be a member of polite

10:16

society, you're not going to make anyone feel

10:18

uncomfortable. And she says that out of need,

10:20

because he is making her feel uncomfortable. And

10:22

actually, if he was to

10:24

observe the etika, etika means rules, then

10:27

actually, there should be a little conversation

10:29

because actually, he should be seeing that

10:32

she's uncomfortable. An etiquette man rule number

10:34

one is do not make anyone else

10:36

feel uncomfortable rule number two, do not

10:39

bring attention to self. And what does

10:41

old Darcy do? He gets it wrong

10:43

on both accounts. So yes,

10:46

there should be. But the intimacy,

10:50

the intimacy level that we go to in

10:52

the war and off the war of Britain

10:54

goes to, you know, goes to another place.

10:57

Historically, do we know of any dances of

10:59

the year or maybe the surrounding areas that

11:01

were a little bit, perhaps a little

11:03

bit saucy or a bit scandalous? Well, like

11:05

I was saying, you know, the slow

11:08

dances, if you dance hole in the

11:10

wall, there are figures where

11:12

the first man dances with the second lady

11:14

and they cross. And there

11:16

is a move in it where

11:18

we get very, very close, very,

11:21

very close indeed. And that

11:23

creates intimacy. And that has

11:25

a wonderful sensual,

11:27

sensorial quality about it rather

11:29

than sexual. So yes, yeah,

11:31

I mean, these people had heartbeats, you

11:33

know, they had breath. There were

11:35

people that one would find attractive. As

11:38

we say, Mr. Beverage's maggot maggot means

11:40

to fancy that Mr. Beverage was a

11:42

dancing master of the time. And

11:44

basically, Mr. Beverage's maggot means a

11:46

dance that he liked or the

11:48

constituents, the figures or the

11:50

people that dance them. So I'm sure,

11:53

I'm quite sure that if you were

11:55

dancing with a partner that you liked,

11:57

just the very fact of the

11:59

activity. of dancing with them

12:02

would affect one's blood pressure and

12:04

pulse. What happened if you

12:07

say mucked up your steps in

12:09

front of everyone? You know, was that a big

12:11

deal? Could you improvise or was it a bit

12:13

of a hard to do? Of

12:15

course, you know, these dancers

12:17

are very, very sophisticated in

12:20

their patterns. And, you

12:22

know, if you don't have a

12:24

caller, you've got to remember. So that's

12:26

a great test on your memory. You're

12:28

supposed to prep the dancers before you

12:30

come. And if you

12:32

were to go wrong, which is very

12:35

clearly marked in practice,

12:38

it's poor Mr. Collins goes horribly wrong.

12:40

But I don't think he goes horribly

12:42

wrong because actually he hasn't prepped the

12:44

dance. I think it's just the situation

12:46

that he's dancing with a beautiful young

12:49

woman. So, of course, without

12:52

a shadow of doubt, you

12:54

would be bringing attention to yourself and you

12:56

would be commented on. Bridgerton is very gossipy,

12:59

but I don't think Bridgerton is alone. You've

13:01

only to read Austin to know that actually

13:03

other people's dress, other

13:06

people's, you know, appearances

13:08

comment on left, right and centre.

13:10

So I'm afraid you're

13:12

in the spotlight. To return

13:14

to what you said about Mr. Darcy saying

13:17

talking about etiquette, what were some of the

13:19

top tips, the rules on the dance floor?

13:21

Well, the top tip is a gentleman

13:24

would ask a lady to dance and

13:26

he would offer his right hand and

13:28

the lady would accept with

13:30

her left. If she

13:32

said no, that was considered to

13:35

be very rude, very rude indeed.

13:39

Without a very good reason. Secondly,

13:43

it would be considered ill manner

13:45

to dance with the same person

13:47

more than twice. And

13:49

that would be because you are then

13:51

ignoring the other wonderful people who are

13:54

in the room. So one, ask people

13:56

to dance. Make sure you have a

13:58

leader of your right. hand. And

14:01

there's a hangover on that. It was that you

14:03

should do the left, that's the side of the

14:05

heart. It's got nothing to do with that. That

14:07

seems to be interpretation. But it's

14:09

very much to do with going right

14:12

back to the idea, the history of

14:14

the handshake, and that's a contract. So

14:16

we offer right hand to right hand, invariably.

14:20

I think there are two very, very

14:22

good rules. But also, what I like

14:24

about that question is how you dance,

14:27

which is very much a tip. Another tip

14:29

is you should not bring attention. The man

14:31

should not bring attention to himself. So

14:34

when a jippman asks a lady

14:36

to dance, it should

14:38

be about her, not about

14:41

him. May

14:43

I have the pleasure? Can I have the

14:45

pleasure of you? Not you

14:47

of me. I am going

14:49

to attend to you, be a

14:52

good servant. So likewise, medieval,

14:54

likewise, with, I think, regency, when you

14:56

ask someone to dance, you make it

14:59

about them. Offer with the right, accept

15:01

with the left, don't dance too often,

15:03

rather twice with the same person. And

15:06

when you dance, don't make it about

15:08

you, make it about your partner.

15:11

Historically, where would people have learnt these

15:13

rules of etiquette and also

15:15

these dances, actually? So most

15:18

of these dances were for

15:21

aristocracy, those who had the

15:23

money, and they

15:26

would employ a dance master to

15:28

come to their house. And I believe

15:31

in season two of Bridgerton, there's

15:33

actually a dance master who you

15:36

see teaching one of

15:38

the Bridgerton family to dance

15:40

before they are exasperated by

15:43

the inability or, you know,

15:45

lack of enthusiasm. So yes,

15:48

these families invited people in

15:50

and the dance masters were

15:52

quite powerful people. They had

15:54

a good income. And

15:56

because they wrote the dances, that were

15:58

to be danced at the balls. So the

16:00

dances that are going to be danced are

16:03

advertised in advance. So

16:05

people would learn and the dance masters

16:07

who are teaching these families, often

16:10

they would be invited to write a dance

16:12

for the ball. So you

16:14

would bring the person in to teach

16:16

you to dance. So when you get there, you

16:18

could appear to be

16:20

dancing with apparent ease,

16:23

like you are just a natural, but

16:25

no, it's all in the preparation with

16:27

the dance master at the house. We

16:30

do know that obviously the working

16:32

classes were dancing too, but

16:35

just probably, shall we say, lending

16:37

their weight to it in a

16:39

very different manner. So they

16:42

had to pay and you had to pay

16:44

the dance master in order to be

16:46

able to participate. I always wondered,

16:48

how exactly did people know what to

16:51

perform and how many different pieces of

16:53

choreography this must learn? It never

16:55

fails to blow the mind of every single dancer

16:58

who I introduced to Long-Mosed Progressive. I mean,

17:00

they only have to dance for two minutes.

17:02

But when I say, if you

17:04

were dancing this in 1813, and

17:06

if you were at the assembly rooms in

17:08

Bath, which are huge, you may dance it

17:10

for 15 to 20 minutes. The

17:13

one dance reason being so

17:15

that everybody could dance

17:17

things each other, why the objective was to

17:19

be sociable. Think about the pure

17:21

musicians there, you know, they're playing away for.

17:24

A dance could last 15 or 20 minutes. So

17:26

by the time the top couple got to the

17:28

bottom, the bottom couple got to the top, they danced

17:30

with everybody. And you go to

17:32

the assembly rooms in Bath, the size of that

17:34

space. Okay. Then

17:36

obviously, you do have the dancers, the

17:39

penny dances, like that took place again

17:41

in season one in Vauxhall Gardens. Vauxhall

17:43

Gardens was a notorious place for penny

17:45

dances, where if you could pay your

17:47

penny, you could go and dance and

17:49

you could learn the dances there. There

17:52

would be a lesson beforehand. The dances

17:54

were very, very intricate in their patterns.

17:56

A lot of people say that they

17:58

could do them because... of

18:00

the callers, but actually the aristocracy

18:02

could dance these dances without callers.

18:06

They knew the patterns and a lot

18:08

of people who dance regency

18:10

in regional societies today

18:13

pride themselves on being able to dance

18:15

these dances without callers and quite right

18:17

to. How varied would some of

18:19

these patterns have been? Would they all have a slightly

18:21

different format to them or would they have been fairly

18:24

similar? That's just it. There is

18:26

a similarity and then there is to

18:29

the point that you would think, which dance

18:31

am I in? And they would obviously, like

18:33

I said, they would emphasize the dances that

18:35

were going to be danced so people would

18:37

they would know. But yes, there

18:40

are times there are similar patterns. So

18:42

there's a setting and an honoring and

18:45

the first couple crosses with and

18:47

there's hands for a lot

18:49

of them. But of course, you've got to

18:52

remember the music, the music

18:54

informs once you've learned yourself

18:56

to music as a dancer, it informs

18:58

you what is coming next. At

19:01

one of these events, how many dances would you

19:03

actually be doing? Was it a couple or would

19:05

there 20 say? The

19:08

dance cards that the ladies would have,

19:10

you know, they would they were there

19:12

in order to meet people and to

19:14

be able to speak and to chat

19:16

to men. They would want to fill

19:18

their dance cards and you would have

19:20

anything up to seven or eight dancers

19:22

at a ball. So as I said,

19:25

some of those dances can be lasting 15 minutes.

19:28

There were people that would dance right into the night,

19:30

but there were people that would be doing that they

19:32

would be leaving and leaving as part of their strategy

19:35

to be seen, to be

19:37

seen leaving. So yeah, it was it

19:39

would be full on and it would go on into

19:41

the, you know, in some places, the early hours of

19:43

the morning, if not dawn. We've spoken

19:46

about sort of the more aristocratic

19:48

balls, but what other events might people

19:50

be dancing at? The aristocratic

19:52

balls, I mean, the most outrageous is

19:54

to know that the night before the

19:56

Battle of Waterloo, there was a ball

19:59

night before. but they all went

20:01

off to battle, which is our, you

20:03

know, absolute experience. So you would have

20:05

dances at an inn, which

20:08

we'd know as a pub. And of

20:10

course, dances would take place on

20:12

the village green. And of

20:15

course these tended to be people, people

20:17

who were from the lower working classes.

20:19

You've got to understand that English country

20:21

dance was one of the greatest contributions

20:23

by us to the dancing world, other

20:26

than ballroom dancing. It is a

20:28

huge contribution. So, and that was

20:31

when it was most popular. These

20:33

dances were popular. So

20:35

they would dance on the green, they would

20:37

dance in the halls, they would dance in

20:40

the fields, they would dance the night before

20:42

in a war, and they were danced in

20:44

panaces. The place to be, whether it was

20:46

aristocracy or whether it was the working classes,

20:49

it was an event. So Voxel Gardens was

20:51

an event. And not only would you have

20:53

dancing, but you would have other things going

20:55

on, other entertainments, whether

20:57

they were legal

21:00

or not. And they

21:02

were hugely, hugely successful.

21:05

They were sold out. The dances were, the

21:07

balls were sold out. They were well attended.

21:09

So like I said, go back to Joe

21:12

Wright, to show that, to show the enjoyment

21:14

and the participation. But it in itself, the

21:16

ball is an event in itself. It's not

21:18

just the dancing, but actually to be in

21:20

the room, because actually the people are working

21:22

so hard, people are working in the lab.

21:24

The stress to come to a melting pot,

21:26

which was all about music and dance. And

21:29

as we know, when we dance, we

21:31

exercise. And so stress, as I was

21:34

saying, it's no different to people

21:36

then, and an opportunity to

21:38

socialise. Talking about these events, how

21:40

many people would have attended? And was there

21:42

an invite list or could you just show

21:45

up? Obviously there were private balls.

21:47

And as we know, for example, in Bridgerton,

21:49

which reflects obviously the region of sea, Lady

21:51

Danbury would send out her advice. That of

21:53

course, that would be the first dance of

21:55

the season. Of course they were all competing,

21:58

because I didn't know a very big element. of

22:00

that society is who's better than the others

22:02

and who's ball is better and who has

22:04

more musicians. I'm sorry to say who dances

22:06

better. I mean, it's always been the case

22:08

sadly, but

22:11

there'd be other types of the paper, but

22:13

also the invitations, the Vauxhall Gardens would be

22:15

a public ball, but a private

22:17

ball would obviously be for our invitation sent by

22:20

the host. Now, I'm curious.

22:22

I would like to know, what's your

22:24

favourite Regency dancing, either one that you've

22:26

worked on or someone else's

22:29

that you know of? Is

22:31

there a particular favourite moment for you? Well,

22:34

I'd, Bridget is my favourite completely,

22:36

but let's just say Bridget is

22:39

my favourite fusion, Regency fusion, but

22:42

I have to say anything that

22:45

Jane Gibson has choreographed. To

22:47

be able to do Pride and Prejudice for the BBC and

22:49

then do Pride and Prejudice for Joe Wright

22:51

just shows the

22:54

wickedness of the woman. She's so unbelievably

22:56

clever. And I do

22:58

think that particular ball where it

23:00

is rammed and the

23:03

energy and the rhythm really

23:05

I felt was very, very,

23:08

very present. I think that's one

23:10

of my favourite balls watching on

23:12

Regency, apart from my own. As

23:16

a final question on a very similar vein, in

23:20

your opinion, which Regency dance

23:22

should we revive today? Perhaps

23:24

maybe as a historical entry

23:26

to strictly come dancing kind

23:28

of thing. Well, I

23:30

would say it should be a quadrille.

23:32

I definitely think it should be a

23:34

quadrille. I think you

23:36

would see the sophistication

23:39

and the intricacy and

23:41

the technique required in

23:44

order to dance those dances and

23:47

then actually be able to draw a

23:49

huge respectful parallel to the modern. That

23:53

was Jack Murphy, the choreographer and

23:55

movement director on Bridgerton. Series

23:58

three of the show is streaming now. on

24:00

Netflix. And if you want to hear

24:02

a conversation we had with the show's

24:04

historical consultant, Hannah Gregg, about

24:06

the real inspirations for the show's

24:08

chief gossip monger, Lady Whistledown, then

24:10

search for Real Lady Whistledown in

24:12

your podcast feeds to bring that up. Thanks

24:15

for listening. This podcast was produced

24:17

by Jack Bateman.