0:00

Welcome

0:30

back to Homestuck made this world, a

0:32

show about critical analysis and contextualization

0:35

of the web comic homestuck. I'm

0:37

Michael and with me as always is

0:39

Cameron. Yep. Today,

0:43

it is episode 12, part two

0:45

of homestuck made this world. We're just one

0:47

step closer to the end of end of the whole

0:49

mess, so to speak. How

0:51

are you feeling, Cameron? Good.

0:57

Yeah? I'm checking. Okay.

1:00

Let me check. Fingers

1:02

and

1:02

toes. Mhmm. Good.

1:04

Yeah. Also pulling up

1:06

a little sims menu, making sure you're -- Mhmm.

1:08

-- you're not hungry. You've

1:11

got a nice piece of art in the room to

1:13

increase your mood. Mhmm. Oh.

1:15

Bathroom's already all the way in the red though.

1:17

Is that bad you think? Well, if your

1:19

plumb bob is is just a little bit

1:21

gray, then you're probably alright. Yeah.

1:23

It's just a little gray. I'm good. Okay. Okay.

1:25

Cool. Man,

1:29

it's really feels weird to be so close to

1:31

the end of this thing because Well,

1:34

let me say this coming out of the

1:36

top right at the beginning. Okay?

1:40

I thought this was the final episode.

1:42

Yeah. You did. Or

1:45

a particulate, you know. Yeah. And so I'm reading

1:47

this thing. And I'm getting toward

1:49

the you know, I got the whatever seventy nine fifty

1:51

the last thing we read for this. And I'm getting 2, like,

1:54

seventy eight -- Uh-huh. --

1:56

seventy eight fifty. And I'm, like, what

1:58

could happen at the end of this? Like,

2:01

what could this be building to?

2:03

And I got to the end of this reading and

2:06

I was like, I literally

2:08

sent you a message. I was like, where are we

2:10

reading 2? Because I was like, this cannot be

2:12

the end of Homestuck. But it

2:14

wouldn't that have been great. Like, when that had been

2:16

a fascinating, just you

2:19

to everybody, it would have

2:21

ever ended in, like, a, you know, like, one

2:23

person's like of character

2:26

and then and then Bloop, we're done.

2:28

The end. Hope you enjoyed the show

2:30

folks. Yeah. But So

2:32

anyway, my expectations in this episode

2:34

were like very skewed because

2:36

I thought we were in the end. No.

2:38

We we got one more episode of homestuck

2:40

proper. Mhmm. Yeah. And

2:44

I will summarize that in due time.

2:46

But first, I should probably summarize this,

2:48

which isn't the ending of Homestuck proper.

2:50

Okay? Roxy

2:53

asks Kaleiope to provide moral support

2:55

while she conjures the Trolls matriorb. The

2:58

gambit pays off and she does so.

3:00

2, Rose, John, and Jane

3:02

hang out until Jasper Sprit shows

3:04

up and grabs Jane taking her to meet

3:06

Nana Sprit. Roxy and

3:08

Cali share a private moment before delivers

3:11

the matri org to Kanaya. On

3:13

Dirk's planet, Dave and Dirk finally

3:15

begin to talk. Dave works through

3:17

his complicated feelings about bro, whom

3:20

he now admits was negligent and abusive.

3:22

Dirk says he understands why someone like

3:24

himself might be that sort of parent and

3:26

he's often had problems with people idolizing

3:29

him exacerbating his constant secret

3:31

self loathing. After hearing

3:33

about Dirk's admiration of Dave's ancestor,

3:36

Dave hugs him. At the enchanted

3:38

horse cliffscape in the dream bubbles, punk

3:40

Riska tries to come up with things to do

3:42

with MENA who is bored. The

3:44

real Riskska, which is to say the recently

3:46

resurrected one, shows up in demand's

3:49

punk Risks a turnover caliber in his

3:51

McGuffin chest. She says the old

3:53

Briska is useless and insults her repeatedly

3:55

for softening and giving up. She

3:58

takes Callibor's Mcguffin and heads off

4:00

to do battle with Lord English. Mina

4:02

goes with her leaving the punk of Risca

4:04

alone and crying. Jane gets

4:06

pranked by Nana Sprite of whom there are now

4:08

2 due to how Repcon shenanigans worked

4:10

out. Jake hangs out

4:12

on his planet with Tabro Spright when Jasper

4:15

Spright shows up. She throws 2 severed

4:17

head into the last colonel Spright, creating

4:20

Nepeda Spright. Riska

4:22

has Jake summon the g cat and then has

4:24

Tavros Sprite pick the cat up prototyping

4:26

it. She then puts Tavros to sleep to

4:28

help with his cat allergies. In

4:30

the Dreambubbles, Ritzka and MENA discover

4:32

the ghost army has been reassembled because

4:35

Tavros used gumption and friendship

4:37

on everybody. Riska has a

4:39

breakdown and Tavros immediately turns

4:41

command of the army over to MENA. Jade

4:43

follows the alkylii, who

4:45

explains how the elements of the class back system

4:47

are the fabric of paradox space. Space

4:49

players such as themselves are committed

4:51

to lives of apparent passivity until

4:53

they rise up dramatically at the moments when they

4:55

are most needed. Jasbro

4:58

Sprite goes on a tea party date with Nappetta

5:00

Sprite as Jake looks on awkwardly.

5:02

Dave Sprite shows up and shakes hands

5:04

with Nappetta Sprite, doubled prototyping

5:06

her and giving rise to Dave Pettisprite

5:09

squared. Dave Pettisprite and

5:11

Jasper Sprit continue to date

5:13

platonically sort of, discussing

5:15

their weird new lives where they feel burdened

5:17

by no personal issues whatsoever. Dave

5:20

Pettersbrite heads off and finds Acquia

5:22

Sprite who has built up the kids houses

5:24

and now releases their wrist caches

5:26

into Skya. The Sprite's

5:28

engage in a grotesque Kug, and Andrew

5:30

Hussey demands that you take a selfie with

5:32

the image in the background and post it to

5:34

social media. Dave and

5:36

Dirk talk even more with Dave

5:38

eventually asking for advice on how to

5:40

come out to his friends. Everyone

5:42

else gathers on the Lilly pad and watches

5:44

Sky a light up with wrist. Then

5:46

they break into their teams. 2 and

5:49

John bit each other a flirtatious goodbye,

5:51

then 2 messages Briska who

5:53

is busy with the Ghost Army and does not

5:55

answer. Teresi confesses she's

5:57

enjoyed their ears together on the meteor and

5:59

admits that she needs Briska and thinks

6:01

Briska probably looks down on her now

6:03

knowing this. 2 says without

6:06

Risksha, she feels incomplete and wishes

6:08

her luck in battle. Tearfully, she

6:10

reviews their past together from when they

6:12

first met online forward and her seer

6:14

of mind powers unlock the memories

6:16

of the Therese who died after

6:18

game over. We see this dead 2 wander

6:20

the dream bubbles as they are destroyed by

6:22

Lord English. We are also reminded

6:25

of many other dramatic deaths suffered

6:27

by humans and trolls throughout the comic

6:29

as we see them awake in the Dream Bubbles

6:31

2. The Dead 2 eventually

6:33

encounters dead punk Riska who

6:35

was indeed the original Frisco with whom

6:37

she shared a timeline, and they

6:39

stand together at last watching happily

6:42

as Paradox space shatters around

6:44

them. On July twenty seven,

6:46

twenty fifteen, Andrew Hussey

6:49

places homestuck on hiatus for

6:51

the final time with the

6:53

Omega Pause. Omega

6:58

pause. Yep. That's

7:01

bigger than a giga. It's

7:03

the last pause. How long does it

7:05

pause? July

7:09

twenty fifteen through Oh,

7:12

gosh. Is it March twenty

7:14

sixteen when updates resume? It's

7:16

a late March or early April. Okay.

7:19

Yeah. It's not a year.

7:21

No. Not a year. Not at all. But it is

7:23

just another pause that kinda comes out

7:25

of nowhere and I

7:28

think further serves to

7:30

maybe dampen a little bit of the

7:32

the hot flame of homestuck, which

7:34

at this point has already dampened

7:36

considerably compared to what it was in, like, the summer

7:38

of twenty eleven. Oh, no.

7:44

And so you know,

7:46

and I've seen actually because I think in

7:48

a couple of episodes ago, I asked the question.

7:50

You know, like, what what's the temperature in

7:52

the fandom at the time. And several people in the discord

7:55

have been very helpful who were who were readers.

7:57

And lots of people who have talked about being

8:01

gigapause readers, right, people who got caught

8:03

up at that time. Basically, everyone is like,

8:05

we're just around. It seems like the general not

8:07

everyone, but it seems like the general temperature

8:09

is we're just waiting around to see

8:11

how this thing goes. Mhmm. Like, if

8:13

if we're still reading, then it's because we're interested

8:15

in finding out how it ends, but are perhaps

8:17

not nearly at least the people who self

8:19

select enough to talk to us about it. Right?

8:21

Mhmm. It seems like the general vibe is not

8:23

like, I I was there

8:25

to fight, you know, about interpretations

8:27

of characters or whatever. It mostly seems

8:29

like big chunk of people were resigned to

8:31

the ending. Just like, whatever's

8:33

happening, I'm curious about it because I've invested

8:35

the time. And obviously,

8:37

that's a selection bias issue issue. Right?

8:39

Because as you know, as you've expressly

8:42

said many times, as the Tumblr

8:44

Explorer clearly shows, There's still a

8:46

lot of people talking about it at the 2. Mhmm.

8:48

But maybe not the millions who were

8:50

once way into it.

8:52

You know? Yeah. And then

8:54

there's all the other thing that

8:56

I often hear and have heard throughout

8:58

the process of doing this particular

9:00

program is people saying like,

9:02

oh, I stopped reading during one

9:04

of the pauses. And it's always phrased

9:07

that way. Not I stopped reading

9:09

during the gigapause or I stopped

9:11

reading during the megapause, just one of

9:13

the pauses. There's a way

9:15

in which I think for a lot of people who

9:17

had been on the homestuck wagon,

9:20

the pauses just kind of

9:22

become they don't have

9:24

these these are people who maybe don't have the necessary

9:27

investment of time or whatever to just 2, like,

9:29

I I need to see how this ends or I want

9:31

2 how it ends. Sure they might be interested

9:34

in seeing how it ends,

9:36

but that interest doesn't

9:38

overcome whatever loss of

9:40

inertia is incurred by the pauses themselves.

9:44

Right. So Right.

9:47

Like, there there are peep I've heard multiple

9:49

people say that they

9:51

are listening to this show basically

9:53

because they fell off during one of

9:55

the pauses. Never finished

9:57

homestuck and are just now this is how they

9:59

would rather see how it all came together.

10:01

Mhmm. Mhmm. Can I give you a little

10:03

I've been looking for this this

10:06

this quotation for a couple minutes here.

10:08

Sure thing. It's from David Milch's book, which

10:10

I told you, it's the best best book I've read

10:12

this year. No question. Maybe the best book I've read in the

10:14

last ten years. But

10:17

David Milch was the writer, created

10:19

NYPD Blue, people probably know, also

10:21

created deadwood and a bunch of

10:23

other stuff. But notoriously

10:27

complicated guy, Oddfella, in

10:29

a lot of ways. And

10:32

he has a chapter in here

10:35

that that I

10:37

can't re like, I it would require me to redo

10:39

the forty pages of the chapter to kinda get to it,

10:41

but I I would say You know,

10:43

two things to say about it. One is that

10:45

it's really difficult to get through because it

10:47

deals with David Milch's experiences

10:50

of being sexually abused as a child.

10:52

And how that kind of fits into

10:54

his work and how he kind of

10:57

processed that through his

10:59

his television work. If you

11:01

don't wanna read that, that is very reasonable to

11:03

not wanna read that. But that is what the

11:05

thing is about. But the

11:07

reason that I bring it up is that

11:09

The the chapter works through

11:11

his theory of kind of narrative development.

11:14

Mhmm. You know, like, what what is a

11:16

story and how do stories

11:18

happen how do they kind of bring in external

11:20

influences sometimes when they intend to and

11:22

sometimes when they don't. Right? Like -- Mhmm. -- what is the

11:24

thing? And I think what's

11:26

interesting about it and I kinda wish that I

11:28

we had room to talk about. We don't. But, you

11:30

know, I wish we had room to talk about the

11:32

full forty fifty pages. If

11:34

only because I get the

11:36

sense that a lot of homestuck

11:39

readers who are really

11:41

into homestuck, one of their

11:43

primary ways of engaging with kind of

11:45

narrative theory is the way that homestuck

11:47

talks about narrative -- Mhmm. -- or at least, you know, in the

11:49

segment that we have seen. So often when we have

11:51

disagreements with people who are kind of big

11:53

homestuck fans about the way they reach homestuck,

11:55

It really turns into them walking

11:57

us through how homestuck how homestuck

12:00

does the thing. And then I have to say,

12:02

well, look, like, I have kind of a

12:04

first principle rejection of this. Right?

12:06

Like -- Mhmm. -- I don't agree with the initial

12:08

claims that get you to that explanation. It

12:10

really has less to do with Homestuck does.

12:13

And so what's fascinating to me and what I really

12:15

thought about while reading this was like, oh,

12:17

this is another set of first principles

12:19

that one could put up against homestuck to

12:21

compare contrast, not to say is better or

12:23

worse, but to say that there are

12:25

different ways of even approaching these big

12:27

claims, like the ones we talked about in the last

12:29

part of so, that that HUSI is making them around

12:31

kind of the autonomy of homestuck

12:34

versus, you know, the kind of personally

12:36

influenced parts of it or schematic

12:38

or write early parts but I think where I

12:40

think both Dave Milchas

12:43

work and how's he run into

12:45

one another. He's really stuck with me. So

12:47

much that I marked it on the page. It just took me a minute

12:49

to find it, is this is David Milch. And

12:51

the reason I'm saying this at the beginning of this episode

12:53

is it really I

12:55

I while reading the work for

12:57

this stuff, while reading the homestuck section

12:59

for this, I thought about this quotation. Okay.

13:02

So it's a really short one. It's on page 108

13:05

of of David Melch's, David

13:07

Melch, LifeSwork, and memoir, in

13:09

case you're curious. Storage

13:13

telling permits language to have its

13:15

deepest, fullest expression because

13:17

it accommodates the dimension of

13:19

time. The way words

13:21

of behavior accumulate, they

13:23

take on more and new meaning,

13:25

and that was what was happening in these episodes. He's

13:27

kinda close reading his own. His won't work.

13:29

Words are given that fuller dimension, and

13:31

so too are the experiences of scenes

13:33

as they accumulate one after another,

13:35

and modify the initial meaning that is

13:37

experienced by the viewer when the scene is first

13:39

rendered. Mhmm. Okay. Okay.

13:41

Right? So, like, the power for

13:43

David Milch in serial storytelling. I mean,

13:45

he worked in TV predominantly for

13:48

forty five years or something like that. And the

13:50

and the reason he did that was because

13:52

it was serial storytelling

13:55

and because it allows you

13:57

to use language And

13:59

I would say images too. I 2 know if he cares less

14:01

about that because because he was

14:03

a writer, writer, writer, sometimes a

14:05

director but mostly writer. It

14:07

allows you to aggregate on top

14:09

of previous knowledge. Mhmm. And

14:11

it allows you to use words to

14:13

reinterpret previous knowledge. And

14:15

I would say that what we read today

14:17

is a an

14:19

astonishing deployment

14:22

of that strategy. Mhmm. Now I

14:24

think and I think whether you agree or whether

14:27

you think it works or not probably

14:29

requires additional information.

14:31

But I think if you accept what is in front

14:33

of you, it is a

14:35

fascinating turn

14:37

that is using this exact thing. Right? The way words

14:39

and behavior accumulate they take on

14:42

more and new meaning. And

14:44

that was what was happening in this episode. Words are

14:46

given that folder dimension and so too are the

14:48

experiences of scenes as they accumulate

14:50

one after another. And modify the initial

14:52

meaning that is experienced by the viewer when the

14:54

scene is first rendered. Mhmm.

14:56

You know, that that to me is such a such interesting

14:58

thing. Right? Because David Milch is kinda working

15:00

on the assumption that you'll you'll think about the

15:02

things he saw before. Right. Mhmm.

15:04

This is also the thing where especially on the

15:06

bonus notes where we kind of push back on the idea

15:08

of many of the things that Homestuck does

15:11

being new -- Mhmm. -- or being

15:13

kind of novel rather than just

15:15

really good kind of. Really talented

15:18

ways of rearticulating things

15:20

that exist in other media. You know,

15:22

this is someone who is, like, structurally

15:24

a TV writer. You know what I mean? Like, he he

15:26

is someone who is in the bones of television

15:29

writing post nineteen eighties. Mhmm. And he's

15:31

telling you a thing, you know, in this quotations, it's

15:33

kinda what Homestuck and runs with. But anyway

15:35

-- Mhmm. -- that's what I was thinking

15:37

about. Yeah. That's specifically what you were

15:39

thinking about during the

15:41

ARQIAS Dave Petahug. Right? Yep.

15:43

That was it. You got me. Uh-huh.

15:46

No. It's not.

15:48

Talk about yeah. That was not

15:50

yeah. This has got some really

15:53

fascinating maneuvers. And

15:57

also, right up against

15:59

it, some of the worst parts

16:01

of the comic for

16:04

me. Right? You know, yeah, I can always only I I

16:06

can only ever evaluate for myself.

16:08

But truly, I've never had it it yeah.

16:10

There's a real whiplash going on here.

16:12

Mhmm. Yeah. If

16:14

you're not reading along, we'll

16:16

we'll talk a little bit more about

16:18

what's going on in that hug and how bizarre

16:20

it is. But unless

16:23

you wanted to start with that, didn't work

16:25

our way outward. We could maybe start

16:27

actually probably with the issue of risk

16:29

is. We could do that.

16:31

We talk about Nana Sprite first. Okay. Yeah. Let's

16:33

talk about Nana Sprite. I've

16:36

never been I think I think I've I when Nance

16:38

Bryant showed back up, I sent you a screenshot and

16:40

said, the goat. Yeah. You

16:43

did. I I Nana Spray,

16:45

I've never been more happy to see a character.

16:49

Nana Spray in the mayor, everyone's back.

16:51

That's good. That's great to me.

16:53

I hope I hope the mayor

16:55

kills Lord English. I

16:58

hope I this is what I hope happens. Okay. You

17:00

ready? Okay. This is my cold shot for

17:02

how Lord English is defeated. Okay.

17:04

The mayor has some sort of gun

17:06

that he has, like, come up with

17:08

you know, in a zany way. You know how he does? You

17:10

know what I mean? He's gonna get some cans

17:13

together. He's gonna get it's gonna be, like, the

17:15

trash or it's gonna be, like, the gravity

17:17

gun from half life two. And more importantly, it

17:19

might just be the gravity gun from half life

17:21

two. You know what I mean? That could be that. He's

17:23

gonna take that. He's gonna put some king

17:25

cans, like, or he's gonna put a jar of

17:27

mayonnaise in that bad boy. He's gonna fire

17:29

it he's gonna fire it through Nana

17:31

Sprite. Okay. And she's gonna arc it. It's

17:33

gonna take a hard right turn because,

17:35

you know, home stock shit.

17:37

Uh-huh. It's gonna make a right. It's

17:39

gonna shoot through the other

17:41

sprites. We're gonna get green. We're

17:43

gonna get pink. We're gonna get the

17:45

other color. Orange.

17:48

Okay. Zing zing zoom. It's

17:50

gonna shoot through one of those crack

17:52

in space and time. Mhmm. And because

17:54

it's a blinking can or a jar

17:56

of mayonnaise. Because of

17:58

that, it's gonna appear

18:00

through all the different color layers --

18:03

Mhmm. -- of Lord English, killing

18:06

him. And he's gonna be so

18:08

embarrassed you guys. Okay? That's

18:10

my cold shot. Alright? Well,

18:12

well, we'll see next episode whether or not that

18:14

happens. Oh my gosh.

18:16

Wow. Yeah.

18:18

It's electric. Okay. But, anyway, we can talk about

18:20

whatever you want. I'm just happy to see Nana Sprite back, and

18:22

I'm happy to see the mayor. You know, not just not

18:24

just what Nana Sprite, but two of them.

18:26

I I'm

18:30

happy you just get one. Yeah. I just

18:32

know what I mean. I'm I'm pleased. Bonus,

18:35

Nana Sprite. That's just bonus. Yeah.

18:37

I think the the most I mean,

18:39

I love that Jane just gets to

18:41

talk to Nana Sprite because

18:45

Nana Sprite was such a weird emergence early

18:47

on in the comic, and the fact that we are

18:49

now, like, dealing with a character

18:51

who is her teenage self It's like,

18:53

yeah, okay. They get to talk to one

18:55

another. And then

18:58

the the prank that the Nano Springs pull

19:00

on Jane is that one of the Nano sprits

19:02

has this long conversation with Jane. And people

19:04

in the thread are like, shouldn't there

19:06

be two nanosprits? Because they've been paying

19:08

attention to where the sprites all were, you

19:10

know, at very previous points when all the

19:12

retcon stuff was going down. So

19:14

they're like, I think there should be two Nana sprites.

19:16

So Nana Sprite and Jane

19:18

have that, like, Not not

19:20

like a serious talk because it's just Nana Sprit and Jane talking

19:23

about being different versions of each

19:25

other. It's kind of lighthearted compared

19:27

to other stuff that's going on.

19:29

But then the

19:31

the capstone to that is the

19:33

other Nana Sprite sneaks up behind

19:36

Jane and throws a pie in

19:38

her face so hard that it

19:40

knocks Jane out of her

19:42

shoes and sends her flying and she goes

19:44

like skidding along the ground and

19:46

passes out. Mhmm. Now can

19:48

you imagine me reading this

19:50

going, how many pages do we have at the

19:52

end? We're doing this. We're

19:54

I can't believe we're we're having a

19:56

full ass tea party with

20:00

Jake. Yeah. Do we

20:02

have time for this? We have And

20:04

I as we got toward the end, I was going or,

20:06

you know, toward into the 2, I was going, there must

20:08

be the world's longest flash

20:10

at the end of this. Like, it

20:12

must be twenty minutes to, like, fit all

20:14

this in, like, just to even close-up the the

20:17

battles that are supposed to happen

20:19

here. Mhmm. But anyway --

20:21

Yeah. -- it's wild. Yeah. No.

20:23

The the the Nana's break, and it does

20:25

follow right on from the

20:29

confrontation with the risk is where

20:31

the -- Yeah. -- the living risk

20:33

just tears

20:35

into dead 2, calls her a loser,

20:37

calls her fat, makes a

20:39

lot of fat phobic jokes about

20:42

her. Which

20:45

is another thing that is

20:47

noted historically because one of the

20:49

things that Hussey did on the Forum Spring

20:51

and I think I mentioned this And if I

20:53

didn't, III should have because it was, like,

20:55

like, it's such a recurring joke in

20:57

kind of, like, fan discourse, Hussie

20:59

would often make jokes about how Frisco was

21:01

the saddest troll and, like, the largest.

21:04

And this was not like a thing Hussie

21:06

came over. With Right. Like,

21:08

someone asked, like, as a like, I think a troll

21:10

question, like, you know, which troll

21:13

is the fattest or which character is the fattest

21:15

or something, and Hussey was just like, yeah.

21:17

It's Briska. And so that became

21:19

like a recurring joke, and here it

21:21

shows up in the comic. Again,

21:24

sort of complicating I talked

21:26

about in the previous part, so this idea

21:28

of light.

21:31

All all the stuff from the

21:33

Old Me, and we're going to silo that off into the early

21:35

parts of the comic. No.

21:38

Here here a vintage Riska just

21:40

like brings that back.

21:42

And like weaponizes it against her altered itself

21:44

who is being denigrated

21:47

for being soft, for

21:49

not being hardcore enough

21:51

This also, I think, ties in with some of the stuff that I

21:53

read from the book commentary really early

21:55

on where Hussey talks about the function

21:58

of the the author as a storyteller of being of

22:00

having, like, a praise and scorn

22:02

for your characters and that you need to,

22:04

like, 2 between

22:06

these things. So get

22:08

a new version of Rysca who shows

22:10

up specifically to scorn the

22:12

previous version of Rysca and

22:15

kind of implicit

22:19

like, it it wanted as to

22:21

quote the thread, we're supposed to be

22:23

angry at risk at here. Now, I

22:25

don't know if that's true, but, like, that's

22:27

one way of reading this, that we should

22:29

understand this version of Riska

22:31

as mean or as someone we we

22:33

shouldn't trust. But there are also people

22:35

in the thread who are like, well, I mean, the

22:37

other risk is kind of just AAA

22:39

beeping loser at this point. Yeah.

22:42

That that is the such a fascinating thing. Is

22:44

it and it aligns with what

22:46

we were talking about in the last episode. Right? It's

22:48

just like, I don't for a comic that

22:51

is so unambivalent about

22:53

its characters in their position. Right?

22:56

Like, this is such so

22:58

unclear about you know,

23:00

which risk should we be aligned

23:02

with? Mhmm. You know, what are

23:04

the the positive or negatives about

23:06

them? You know, is risk a meant

23:08

to be doing the good

23:10

thing and kind of pulling her

23:13

dead self out of this

23:16

I don't know. Stasis, you know, I

23:18

mean, because that's what MENA is saying. Right? Like, we're

23:20

we're just burning time. Right? You know, they're in

23:23

purgatory literally. Really. Mhmm. And, you know, it's just, oh,

23:25

we're here in fandom zone. I we should talk about

23:27

that in a minute too. Right? But, like, it's all

23:29

for nothing because it doesn't go

23:31

anywhere. Right? It's all this, like, closed universe

23:34

stuff. And so, yeah,

23:36

you know, I I really do think this

23:38

is in terms of

23:41

In terms of, like,

23:44

great or interesting things this

23:46

comic has done, I think this

23:48

might be Actually, I have two or three

23:50

things that are written in here that I think are

23:52

like some of the

23:54

best storytelling work that's been done

23:56

in homestock. Mhmm. I've literally

23:58

in this the reading we did for this episode,

24:00

but I think this is one of them where

24:03

it is so clear to me how every other character,

24:05

how every other instance, how

24:07

every other moment of

24:09

action could or should

24:11

be read you know, how it fits into a

24:13

broader structure of the comic is the

24:15

comic is not predictable

24:17

in outcome, but predictable in

24:19

structure. Mhmm. And and I think this has fueled so much fan discussion,

24:21

you know, anytime that someone kind of talks

24:23

about fan theories in our discord

24:26

or link system on Twitter or whatever, they're all

24:28

based on repetitive structure. And to

24:30

the extent that had to build its

24:32

own logic of repetitive structure to

24:34

talk about that. Right? Mhmm. And

24:36

so that's fine. This is a place

24:38

where we just have no tools 2, you

24:40

know, as given. And in

24:43

the toolbox the comic has presented us with

24:45

in the past. We just don't have any tools for reading

24:47

it. And to 2, that's like,

24:49

oh, shit. Like, uh-huh. He's

24:51

doing something new. Like,

24:53

Holy shit. Let's go. Let's do it. I'm into

24:55

it. Like like, she's

24:57

just being cruel. I mean, I I

25:00

please don't mistake me. I'm not like

25:03

I don't like this because risk is being

25:05

a huge asshole. Right?

25:07

Or that I think when risk is right or wrong,

25:09

although I think like, historical Frisco or OG

25:12

Frisco, right, is, like, not

25:15

I I don't think she's a great character

25:17

But I do think that there's, like, stakes here. There's emotional stakes

25:19

that are interesting that I don't really understand how

25:21

they're gonna get paperred over or resolved.

25:24

We're meant to stay ambivalent

25:26

toward it. Technically,

25:29

it's meant to be argued about 2 the fandom. You

25:31

know what I mean? You

25:33

know, the most cynical reading of this

25:35

is like, I'm going to give you

25:37

the friska you liked and the friska

25:39

who you historically hated, you know. The the

25:42

real problem, Riska, and I'm gonna make them,

25:44

you know, being conflict with one another and

25:46

you gotta choose your Riska. In

25:48

the same way that you gotta, you know, choose your type

25:50

of Phantom or your Calibbean or Calibbean.

25:53

But in a way that I don't find Calibbean

25:55

and Calibbean, like, particularly interesting because of

25:57

this kind of structural impulse, I

25:59

at least find the writing of

26:01

Risks here. Fascinating. I don't

26:03

know. I just I was reading it and going, holy

26:05

shit. Like, what a thing to do at the end

26:07

here? Mhmm. It's not that just that

26:09

they're in conflict. It's that this

26:11

conflict is revealing a depth

26:14

around the writing of

26:16

Rysco and around Hussey's conceptualization

26:18

of Rysco -- Mhmm. -- and about the original

26:20

Rysco versus the new Rysco or, you

26:22

know, dead versus is alive or whatever, that

26:25

is complex and cannot

26:27

be resolved easily. Mhmm.

26:29

It cannot be resolved with

26:32

a Well, this was the case the whole time.

26:34

There's a little bit of narrative. It it is

26:36

truly a moment of actual interpretation

26:39

and consideration and

26:41

evaluation that's necessary that I

26:43

just don't see how it can be resolved

26:45

with the stroke of a pin somewhere else, which is

26:47

not ninety percent of

26:49

the decisions that are made

26:51

in homestuck. And so I, you know, I'm I I

26:53

don't know. I found it really really

26:55

neat. And I wrote many notes that say something

26:57

to be effective, well, what am I supposed to do with this

26:59

2 with these riskers? What

27:01

am I to do with all

27:03

these friskas? Mhmm. It's

27:06

like the too many limes. Mhmm. For

27:08

friskas. Well, that's another

27:10

thing that I think makes the, like,

27:12

the perennial contemporary

27:15

here is ex of risk a

27:17

conversation. Both interesting

27:19

and also like tiresome

27:22

because Risks a as

27:24

a character type is written such that

27:27

the category of risk it can contain its

27:29

opposite or like its anti

27:31

type. So, like, you can

27:33

Like, which risk are you talking about when you

27:35

ask is x of Riskska. Which version

27:37

of Riskska? How does that Riskska play out

27:39

for you? It it goes

27:41

to show so much

27:44

what we've hit on repeatedly here,

27:47

that the the mental model of a fictional

27:49

character is capacious and can be

27:51

made to be capacious. Yeah.

27:57

It's fascinating.

28:00

Mhmm. So I

28:02

Yeah. I don't know. The scene

28:05

is notable because

28:07

mena leaves. Mhmm.

28:09

I think it would not be notable if MENA

28:12

didn't agree or or

28:14

agree to leave. She doesn't agree with

28:17

with returned to friska -- Mhmm. --

28:19

returned to the 2. the end of the

28:21

trilogy. But, you know,

28:23

but but nevertheless agrees

28:25

that does agree

28:27

with with all the hatred

28:29

toward deadheading. Mhmm.

28:31

But does agree that she's bored. It

28:33

wants to leave. And so abandons her, you know, her

28:35

smile girlfriend. They're literally breaking up with

28:37

one another. Right? Yeah. Like it's hardcore

28:40

teeny. And we get we

28:42

get, like, oh, the the callback to end

28:44

all callbacks of, I

28:47

think, at the end, she's walking away,

28:49

meenah calls of Risca, Fiska.

28:52

Risk is like I cannot believe

28:54

you're doing the fish pun thing

28:56

while breaking up with me. Yes.

28:59

Is that is such a good, like, little

29:02

maneuver there and is also, like,

29:04

genuinely emotionally affecting. Mhmm.

29:07

Yeah. I don't know. Well, so I I guess I have two questions

29:09

for you. One, I'm sure there's some

29:11

threads. Stuff about that. I'm sure something awful

29:13

is really having a grand time with this. Mhmm. So

29:15

I'm curious about that. Right,

29:17

especially that user base. But I'm

29:19

very curious about how Tumblr responded to

29:21

this. 2 according to the

29:23

something awful thread, Tumblr really

29:26

hates this. And when

29:28

we say when the something awful

29:30

thread says tumbler as I've

29:32

flagged a million times. Right?

29:37

What constitutes Tumblr? Who are we

29:39

following? Who are we talking about? But I think

29:41

what one way of understanding this

29:43

is Tumblr here

29:45

and in the thread is being used as a a seinectomy

29:47

or a kind of stand in for

29:49

sort of like shippers. Right?

29:51

People who are interested in their relationships, who

29:53

who don't want to see characters break

29:55

up who like to see characters get together and

29:57

be romantic. And

30:00

I would say, like, my understand

30:03

like, again, like, the the tumbler record is so

30:05

patchy and I don't know, like, which voices

30:07

necessarily have the most weight and,

30:09

like, all all people have all sorts of

30:12

opinions. My sense of what's going

30:14

on on Tumblr

30:17

is that, yeah, there are

30:19

people who are pretty up set

30:21

by this. But also, there are

30:23

there are what we would call today.

30:25

Verisk stands on Tumblr who

30:27

are excited to see this other

30:29

friska kind of back in the saddle

30:31

and, like, taking charge of things just as they

30:33

were excited in the previous episode.

30:36

Something that is interesting about

30:38

the thread some people get pretty pissed about what MENA

30:40

does here. That MENA goes with the

30:42

other vis à vis because it

30:44

is directly contrary to a

30:46

thing that she said back before

30:48

Kalaborn come and dear the narrative where

30:50

she had this big, like, long spiel

30:52

to John where she told

30:54

him to when he had that magic ring,

30:56

the ring of life. You know,

30:58

don't don't bring that anywhere near me

31:00

because due to the nature of who I

31:02

am, I'm gonna try steal that from you and then

31:04

go on some shenanigans. So

31:06

I wanna be different. I wanna do

31:08

something different. Keep

31:10

that thing away from me. And there are people into something awful thread who

31:12

are like, why did that conversation even

31:14

happen? Like, why why do we have that

31:16

happen so MENA can go back on

31:19

it later? While RisksA

31:21

or, like, you know, this this dead RisksA

31:25

is sort of

31:27

kept from well, not really even from developing. Right? This

31:29

is the other weird interpretive

31:32

tangle here, is that

31:34

Riska is dead and at

31:36

the same time has developed as a

31:38

character, has, like, changed and

31:40

become someone who she

31:42

wasn't earlier in the comic. And as you

31:44

say, it's kind of extremely

31:46

ambivalent and nebulous about

31:48

how are we supposed to understand

31:50

that? Like those

31:52

developments. Like, were they good things? Were they bad

31:54

things or whatever? Yeah.

31:57

What's the what's the comics position?

31:59

I mean, truly, This is the first time in

32:02

the comic that I felt like the

32:04

claims about the independence of

32:06

characters might have

32:08

some weight in the comic. Say more about

32:11

that. Well, just because this is

32:13

so so much in the comic previously,

32:15

there has been a

32:18

weight and a focus

32:20

on characters and their decisions

32:22

and whether they're good, bad, or what the repercussions

32:24

are. Right? Mhmm. There are no

32:27

repercussions you know, plot based

32:29

repercussions for the way these riskers are

32:31

interacting with one another. Mhmm.

32:33

Right? There so just so

32:35

much of the Right. Right. Like, as we've

32:37

talked about, homestock is written in like kind of

32:40

AYA mode. Mhmm. And I've never I

32:42

don't say that critically. Right?

32:44

I'm not saying that as a but it has

32:46

parameters to it. It has a a kind of

32:48

genre form to it. And one of those

32:50

is fairly clear stakes

32:52

for the way that characters are acting, and then a

32:54

kind of judgmental position

32:57

toward characters and how they're

32:59

Right? Like, we can empathize with them. We

33:01

understand why they're making those choices, but

33:04

some character will come along to be like,

33:06

hey, in the broad context, this is what

33:08

this means. And, like, you know, you get

33:10

risk original risk of making all

33:12

these decisions, and then a little bit

33:14

later, you get her laying

33:16

out. This vast emotional landscape of

33:18

why she did that and why it matters and whether it

33:20

was good or bad or not. And if it was okay

33:22

and what it did to other 2. Right?

33:24

There's this kind of melodramatic form,

33:26

right, where the internal has to be

33:29

2. It is critical to

33:31

2. That this

33:33

this has the effusive quality

33:36

to it. Right? Or like these characters are talking

33:38

about their feelings and emotions.

33:40

But not to an end. Right?

33:42

Like, there's no moment at the end of

33:44

this interaction between these two riskas where

33:47

anything in the comic makes a

33:49

statement one way or the other about which friska

33:51

is the in the right or which one is in the

33:53

wrong. Mhmm. And that's

33:56

that's against type or against genre

33:58

here. Mhmm. There's there

34:00

is a we don't know in the

34:03

moment good or bad which of the

34:05

two dudes from hunger Peter and the

34:07

other guy. Right? Okay. We don't know which one's the

34:09

right choice. Right? We don't know about a a Jacob or

34:11

the other guy -- Mhmm. -- you know, in

34:13

twilight. Right? They both got positives and

34:15

negatives, but a character will make

34:17

choice, right, about these kind of romantic ideations or

34:20

these these ideals? Or, you know, even,

34:22

you know, in I'm thinking about the Hunger Games here

34:24

too, about, like, the decision to

34:26

say, what Roo, the the little girl. Right? It's the kind of crux of that

34:28

novel. The you know, we get

34:30

an immediate clarification. It's a few

34:32

chapters later. Right? But it's not many

34:34

books later. But, you know,

34:36

it's it's deferred a little bit, but we

34:38

get the novel, you know,

34:40

via the PoV of of the main

34:42

character. Right? She tells us

34:44

how we're supposed to feel about that decision and she

34:46

can be ambivalent about it herself,

34:48

but there is, narratively,

34:50

within the genre, a kind of

34:52

meta reflection that happens that tells us

34:54

here were the stakes, here's the decision I

34:56

made, and here's why I made the right choice. Because

34:58

of that, you know, these are novels that are

35:00

written in a developmental mode. Hopefully,

35:02

as a human being, as you go through your

35:04

life, you make decisions and you reflect on them later, and you determine if you think you made the right choice

35:06

or not. Mhmm. You know,

35:08

y a follows some, like, very

35:12

assertive things about how development functions,

35:14

whether development really functions that way

35:17

or not. Mhmm. But that's

35:19

all to We don't really get that here even in this part

35:22

of the zone. What

35:24

we get around these two viscose

35:26

is that the friska who

35:28

is ruthlessly bullied, she

35:30

still gets a good outcome.

35:32

Mhmm. Maybe she has the better

35:34

outcome. Mhmm. But we don't get a narrativeation

35:36

narrativeization about, you know,

35:38

if that was a good thing or not.

35:40

Right. We just get that kind of image and that

35:42

sort of

35:44

sense of her and that 2 finding each other

35:46

as this,

35:48

you know, one, like, the the one positive

35:51

outcome of some otherwise

35:54

bad stuff happening.

35:56

And and and well, and that's

35:58

an emotionally real thing. Yes. Right.

36:00

Right. Like at the end of the day,

36:03

life is not. You know, this is of a part with the

36:05

stuff in the previous part of soda about kind

36:07

of breaking narrative here. Right? Like, in

36:09

the real world, you don't

36:12

get to a confirmation about whether or not

36:14

the choice you made is objectively the right

36:16

one. Right? Mhmm. You just have to reflect to make a

36:18

judgment upon your past selves. Fryder about your

36:20

decisions you had in front of you or whatever. Right? You

36:22

have to go on and live your

36:24

life. Life is in fact not like a

36:26

you novel. Mhmm. And so that's what I was talking about in terms of, like, these

36:28

characters being real or having independent

36:30

kind of function to them.

36:32

Right? In that, this is the first

36:34

place where

36:36

where the protocols that

36:38

have been set up about the

36:40

way these characters work in a kind of Medishaun resents

36:42

within this kind of YA form

36:45

where that doesn't really pan out the way. I mean, in

36:47

some ways, it's a little bit just more newness

36:49

and maybe, like, more mythological. Right? Like, the good

36:52

stuff worked out in the

36:54

end. Mhmm. May maybe presumably it's the good stuff, but

36:56

it's certainly different than what we had before.

36:58

And I've I I found that really

37:00

interesting. Mhmm. Yeah. And the

37:02

some of the resonance of or maybe

37:04

implications of it are also just

37:07

really interesting because we

37:11

haven't read to the end yet, but there

37:13

is this with that that

37:15

final scene with Therese and Rysco

37:17

the the dead

37:20

versions together in the Dreambubbles kind of, you know,

37:22

happy and watching everything collapse around them,

37:26

nevertheless. It it suggest

37:28

this sense of happiness

37:32

because because that

37:34

alternate risk does ultimately seems

37:36

to think that she has improved.

37:37

2, in whatever way, like, she

37:40

doesn't react

37:42

to the other risk of bullying her by being, like, you're right. And I should

37:44

change to be more like you. She sort

37:47

of stays with herself and

37:49

who she's become. And

37:52

ultimately, right, this is a Briska who then has given

37:55

up on narrative relevance, which is

37:57

like one of these defining qualities of

37:59

Briska as a character. She's

38:01

always gotta be the center of things.

38:03

She's always got to be, like, the person making the plot go.

38:06

And this the the

38:09

this reading ends with kind

38:11

of this gesture of saying, like, you you can't get

38:13

through your life happy

38:16

thinking you you were at the center of a narrative

38:20

or, like, doing some transition there from, like, fictional characters to

38:22

real people. But, like, because

38:24

these are fictional characters who are dealing

38:26

with these questions of,

38:28

like, what does it mean to be a part of a

38:30

narrative versus, like thrust outside of that

38:32

narrative? And what do I do when I'm

38:34

not relevant to whatever is, quote unquote,

38:36

really happening? It

38:38

is this kind of suggestion,

38:40

I think, of these

38:42

characters aren't going to be happy until

38:44

the plot lets go of them. Like,

38:47

the the definition that complications are

38:50

going to continue to be introduced. You're

38:52

always going to be painted into

38:54

bad 2. And have to

38:56

work your way out of it, and you're never going to

38:58

be happy as long as a narrative is

39:00

driving your life. And

39:03

ultimately, right? I this is the

39:05

never ending story. Mhmm. Right? Like plot plot is a

39:08

terror. Mhmm.

39:10

And you

39:12

know, that the never again story is also a YA thing. You

39:14

know, it is a story explicitly for children,

39:16

and it's it's kind of an educational story for children.

39:18

I mean, it's written a really diverse specific

39:21

mode, especially the end. Right? Like,

39:24

you you have to realize that life is

39:26

not like stories and in in fact

39:29

2 to fit yourself into that is destructive.

39:31

Right? And and it actually ruins stories in

39:33

some ways. Right? In order to

39:36

to try to treat your life

39:38

like one, And in that way, it is very much of a you

39:40

know, going all the way back to of

39:42

indication of the rights of women. Right? And --

39:44

Mhmm. --

39:46

you know, Wollstonecraft saying that, you know,

39:48

young girls who read romance novels and

39:50

imagining themselves as their protagonist.

39:52

Right? That they

39:54

are doing themselves harm in that

39:57

way or, you know, madam

39:59

bovary. Right? Or, like, the whole maneuver there is

40:01

that madam bovary

40:04

can't immob discovery can't see herself as anything other than

40:06

the protagonist of a romance novel. She ruins

40:08

her life -- Mhmm. -- because of it.

40:10

Right? Now I don't think

40:12

that I don't think that Hussey

40:15

is evoking these same

40:17

things. Right? But there's a kind

40:19

of line of logic in European

40:24

political political thought

40:26

about popular fiction, I guess. Right.

40:28

That you see kind of over the eighteenth,

40:31

nineteenth, and into India's time,

40:33

right, in the twentieth century, And

40:35

it's all of a peace with one another. Right? So in in

40:38

some ways,

40:40

Hussey is just downstream from

40:43

and is heavily in conversation with a a

40:45

tradition that maybe Hussey is not fully aware

40:47

of. Right? Mhmm. But the

40:49

the claims that are here, right,

40:51

which is that that Seeing oneself as part

40:53

of a fictional narrative or or trying to

40:56

fulfill the functions that one would have to

40:58

fulfill in a

41:00

fictional narrative is ultimately

41:02

kind of harmful because it it

41:04

forces you to not recognize

41:06

the reality around you. And weirdly

41:08

enough, dead

41:10

Briska does that maneuver. Right? Like like, dead Briska

41:12

is the protagonist of the vindication of the

41:14

rights of women in this really weird way. You

41:16

know, she's the anti immobbery.

41:19

That's one thing that you can

41:21

say definitively. Right? Dead

41:24

Briska is no. I'm

41:26

sorry. Let me flip it.

41:28

ImmobOVRI is not. A dead

41:30

Riskska. But him of

41:32

ovary might be of Riskska.

41:34

And I know I hate to bring it, you know, I've I've banned

41:36

this in the discord. You can't don't talk to me

41:38

about it. But, I mean, truly in the

41:40

transitive property here. Mhmm.

41:42

That's done. And you know what? This is out,

41:44

by the way, so people know about it. We

41:48

had cemon de Rochefort on

41:50

the Range Touch monthly podcast for

41:52

December. It's behind the paywall. Behind the

41:54

Patreon wall. For five dollars

41:56

a month, But

41:58

earlier this year, we had prepared to

42:00

2, where we had many guests come on

42:02

and tell us which

42:06

ending of Elden

42:08

Ring correlated to who

42:10

in their fiction. Right? So we had

42:12

Chip and Veronica talked about which

42:14

ending correlated to which creature and

42:17

or not creatures but characters in Riverdale. Mhmm. And we had it

42:19

for some other things too. And for Homestuck

42:21

that you told us which ending was

42:23

which homestuck here. Homestuck. I

42:25

did. Mhmm. Well, now we have had

42:28

Simone come on the show to

42:30

explain which

42:32

driver for formula one is which ending

42:34

to to that. So now you

42:36

can create your big transitive plot.

42:41

Of which Formula

42:43

One driver is which

42:45

character from. A Formula One AU would

42:47

be so good. Well, there I

42:50

I'm just letting people know in case you were curious about that, but that's my big ideas about

42:54

Wirtzka and and the

42:56

dueling Wirtzka's interesting to hear

42:58

the kind of historical trajectories

43:00

there. Speaking of historical

43:02

trajectories, one of the

43:04

things that make this turn with

43:06

Briska really interesting to

43:08

me. And again, as someone who's like

43:10

been following the comic historically and sort

43:12

of like reading the Forbes Springs and Husky's

43:14

thoughts on these things, In the

43:18

past, when Hussey has

43:20

described kind of the difference between

43:22

what they are doing, telling a story with

43:24

a narrative versus, like,

43:26

what happens in fandom. Mhmm.

43:29

They've articulated it in terms, and

43:31

I've I've quoted some of this stuff

43:33

in previous episodes, but in terms that are

43:35

things like and and this came up even the last particulate a little

43:38

bit. This sense that

43:40

narratives are things

43:42

with stakes. And

43:44

fandom is a space where there are no

43:46

stakes. Like characters when they

43:48

are taken up by fandom and

43:50

Uzi says this around the time that

43:52

Gamzi goes nuts. Starts killing everyone

43:54

and people are, like, why are you doing this? Why is

43:56

this happening? And one of Huzzi's

43:58

responses is, like, listen. This is a

44:00

story and stories have progression and

44:02

things develop and care change.

44:04

And this is one of the ways that that is

44:06

happening. I know that like fandom

44:08

would rather everyone just kind of hang out

44:10

as if it were a sitcom forever. But

44:14

that's not what a narrative.

44:16

Like, that's not what I'm going to do with this narrative.

44:18

And so it it strikes me

44:20

as very interesting here at the end

44:23

where as I've already laid out, the

44:25

comic almost seems to suggest

44:27

like, well, this is still true that

44:29

narratives are things with stakes in

44:31

development and change. But also, maybe

44:34

transformation hap happens in fandom as

44:36

well. And, ultimately,

44:38

the the critique that Nina is leveraging

44:42

that is very much the the sort of earlier Hassy and critique of, like,

44:44

there's no like, what are we doing? Like, we're

44:46

just hanging out. We're just burning time.

44:51

You know, the the the suggestion possibly at the end

44:53

of, like, well, yeah, like, that's like,

44:55

narrative is burning time too. You're just burning time

44:57

in two different ways, and one of

44:59

them might ultimately make you less

45:02

stressed and more happy than the other than

45:04

having to think that you're, you know, at the center of

45:06

all things all the time and constantly have

45:08

to be engaged

45:10

and like, being the most important person in the room rather

45:12

than being a person who

45:14

is happy with other people who

45:16

can spend time with other

45:18

people and do things that make the other

45:20

people around you happy. I don't know.

45:22

Right. Right. So there there

45:24

seems to be some sort of resumption

45:26

of these earlier lines

45:28

of argument, but also a

45:31

not clarification exactly, but a

45:33

a development or elaboration

45:35

on what these things could mean.

45:38

Mhmm. Well, it's also you

45:42

know, I Yeah. I

45:44

don't know. Maybe maybe we'll hold it. Never been.

45:46

I'll hold it for the the final

45:48

episode. Okay. There's some interesting author insert stuff going

45:50

on here 2. Right? If if Risca has historically been an author insert.

45:52

Right. What does it mean that that

45:55

you know, in author insert

45:57

in the sense of, of

46:00

the way that Risks a moves the

46:02

plot and thinks the plot and talks the plot.

46:04

While being in the plot has this kind

46:08

of you

46:10

know, authorial function to it. Right? Mhmm. Although

46:12

a lighter touch than some of the others who

46:14

are that. But what does that

46:17

mean when that character one

46:20

of that character's good outcomes. If we

46:22

if we think about what happens to dead versus a

46:24

good outcome, which I think I do. Mhmm.

46:26

If if one of those good outcomes is consignment

46:29

to oblivion, being happy with

46:31

someone and not being the

46:34

and all the time. Mhmm. Which we know post

46:36

homestuck, that is what Hussey has

46:38

kinda tried to do -- Yeah. -- although whenever

46:40

they appear, they do say some

46:43

you know, pretty inflammatory

46:46

is not the right word. No. Maybe inflammatory is the

46:48

right word. You know, they they make big

46:50

statements. Mhmm. When they actually do

46:52

come out. Yeah. And that maybe being in the

46:54

middle of things, especially during the

46:56

time, during when this is coming

46:58

out, where homestuck is finishing up, and

47:00

then that video game is going.

47:02

Mhmm. You know? And I know that there's a convoluted

47:04

set of negative things that

47:06

happen around that. Right? Like,

47:09

Maybe you just don't want want all want all that attention. And I get

47:11

that. That makes sense to me. Absolutely.

47:14

Yeah. This is the the chunk of

47:16

the reading I haven't been talking much about the game in its development

47:18

because it's not my

47:20

primary interest and it's not something

47:22

that I really

47:24

want to like. I'm telling a history of the comic

47:26

rather than the history of the game development.

47:30

But I think it's important for

47:32

the comic in this context at least because this

47:34

is the chunk of reading when a lot

47:37

of alleged information

47:39

about the development of the game and

47:41

the potential misuse of the

47:44

Kickstarter funds

47:47

by certain parties I'm I'm Allagations of

47:49

misuse. Yes. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Allegations

47:52

of misuse. These become public and

47:54

this really colors

47:58

the perceptions and attitudes

48:00

of the readership, particularly in the

48:02

thread, up until the end. In

48:05

fact, not to spoil too much. But again, having read all

48:07

of the thread up into the

48:09

present day, there's a weird way in which

48:11

the ending of this comic

48:13

is almost overshadowed by

48:16

people talking about various

48:20

rumors about what's going on with the

48:22

game and

48:24

I think that's sort of unfortunate that that that that's

48:26

how it turns out. But just

48:28

so you know, that's also kind of what's going

48:31

on here. That's, like, historically,

48:33

I think, important because it does set

48:35

this kind of tone of one

48:38

project is winding down. The other

48:40

project is kind of in

48:43

progress, but people people knowing

48:45

or hearing that there

48:47

are problems going or

48:50

that there are problems happening with the game development does

48:52

impact the way that they receive the

48:55

updates to the 2. Right?

48:57

Like, it makes them maybe a

48:59

little more conciliatory or

49:02

understanding of things

49:06

and sort of I

49:08

think a lot of people were upset by

49:10

the pauses and this

49:14

ends up

49:16

making them understand a little bit more that developing a

49:18

game is actually pretty hard. It might run

49:20

into problems. You know,

49:22

whether, like, whether or not these allegations are

49:24

true, like,

49:26

clearly, clearly things are happening because, like, the game has, like,

49:28

left one developer. It's been pulled in house

49:30

that studio had to get

49:32

founded. It got, like, moved. Like,

49:35

2 art asset change has happened.

49:37

All this stuff. Yeah.

49:40

And and, you know, this

49:42

is also This is part of

49:44

the time of like the great

49:46

Kickstarter reckoning. Mhmm. It's

49:48

it's starting a little bit earlier than this, I would

49:50

say, probably the end of

49:52

twenty four is when this really starts becoming apparent. But into twenty

49:54

fifteen, twenty sixteen, I

49:56

mean, we are

49:58

echoing through you

50:00

know, either big the narrative around Kickstarter. Right? Is

50:02

that there are lots of mid level kickstarters

50:04

that that happen and go

50:06

off without a hitch. Mhmm. Right?

50:10

There are several really big ones

50:12

that that appear and are

50:14

well funded and then have a

50:17

notoriously fucked up development. Right?

50:19

So I'm thinking about here, Double Fine Adventure.

50:21

Right? Like, I've watched every episode.

50:24

I own it on Blu ray of the Double Fine

50:26

Adventure saga.

50:28

And you know, the the reality is is that Kickstarter they raised a lot of money

50:30

on Kickstarter, and then that money did not

50:32

pay for the thing, you know, because

50:34

of what they promised, which is how much

50:37

money they had and what they promised

50:39

after the initial pledge because, you know,

50:41

I'm not gonna get super into it,

50:43

but the the scope blew up -- Mhmm. -- substantially,

50:45

which happened for many people. Right? You

50:48

know, you can read about the

50:50

development of pillars

50:52

of eternity see the exact same

50:54

story. Right? Like, they were

50:56

probably appropriately scoped for the

50:58

initial goal, but as they added

51:00

additional goals, that blew the scope out of the water to the point where

51:02

I think for both of those projects, both double

51:04

funded venture and for pillars of

51:06

eternity, external funding had to happen, you know,

51:08

beyond the

51:10

thing. And so we are at the reckoning point for

51:12

a lot of that. And then lots of

51:14

kickstarters that are huge don't come out. Mhmm. And

51:16

then lots of kickstarters in the middle period

51:20

really start not coming out. I in fact have been getting emails recently

51:22

about a game that I believe I funded in

51:24

twenty fourteen that is finally

51:27

coming out next year. I

51:29

just started getting random emails about it and I was

51:31

like, whatever. And so people their

51:35

relationship to Kickstarter for a long time was,

51:38

okay, I'm putting money into the thing, and

51:40

then the thing will come out. Mhmm. And

51:42

then the reality is that you are putting

51:44

money money into a promise, and hoping

51:46

the thing will come out. Mhmm. And for

51:48

a highly interactive fan base, I mean,

51:50

the the toxicity for

51:52

most of these projects just off the Right? Mhmm. In

51:55

terms of the way people are talking about it,

51:57

the way people are talking about how they were coned, all

51:59

this kind of stuff. Right? And I can imagine

52:01

within the Homestuck a a

52:03

Homestuck stock phantom in particular that was pretty

52:06

rough and that there are people who are

52:08

really focusing in

52:10

on details and blowing it out. And I'm

52:12

just looking at the thing. Right?

52:14

Like, one thousand six hundred

52:16

ninety three people pledge a hundred and five

52:18

dollars or more. And all you

52:20

need is for five of those people to be

52:22

hyper invested in your life

52:24

and in order to make your life a

52:26

living hell. Just truly. Yeah. But that's all you need. You just

52:28

need a small number of people who have nothing else to

52:30

do 2

52:32

who positioning

52:34

their lives as holding you accountable -- Mhmm.

52:36

-- to then make your life truly nightmarish.

52:38

Mhmm. And I imagine just

52:40

I don't know anything about the Homestuck. game

52:44

stuff in terms of, like, the fandom response or

52:46

the negative things that happen out of those

52:48

things. But knowing quite a bit about

52:50

the other Kickstarter

52:52

big stuff, I can assume that

52:54

the same thing is happening here. Mhmm. Yes. No. Actually, something

52:56

that came up in the previous reading

53:00

that I forgot to mention, but I actually think fits in

53:02

really well here. Another thing

53:04

that kind of comes in with

53:08

this is and also with this idea of maybe trying to

53:10

extricate yourself from the center of things 2 on

53:12

and so forth. People

53:14

are trying

53:16

to add the obituaries of people

53:18

that they suspect are Andrew Hussey's

53:20

family members to Hussey's

53:24

Wikipedia page. Right? Like -- -- like,

53:26

under the personal life stuff, being, like,

53:28

uh-oh, I noticed that this person died.

53:30

I think they're related to Andrew Hussey and,

53:32

like, trying to add it to the Wikipedia page.

53:35

Which is a

53:38

a huge, like, boundary

53:40

kind of thing. Right? Like, just

53:43

for no other reason than I saw this obituary, I think

53:45

this person is related, and I want it to be

53:47

on their Wikipedia page.

53:52

To to the something awful threads

53:54

credit. They're like, this is fucking

53:56

weird. Like, why hundred if you

53:58

do this? Well, you know, I that

54:00

that such an odd thing about that too is it's like, we don't do that for most public

54:02

figures. Uh-huh. Right? Like like

54:06

the vast majority of public figures, people are

54:08

not editing their thing to talk about, like, tertiary

54:10

family members who died. Mhmm.

54:14

So, like, you know, unless it's like a notable thing that occurred, you know, we've

54:16

read oh, yeah. I forget which

54:18

director it was. One of the directors for a thing we

54:20

covered on just King Things

54:22

bonus episode. His

54:24

his son, yeah, had a hit and run.

54:26

Yeah. Yeah. His son had a very famous

54:28

hit and run, you know, basically drove down

54:30

a sidewalk. And so we talked about that, and that's on the

54:33

Wikipedia page. That's how we found out about it. Right? And

54:35

so, like, notability both but

54:38

notability applies for everyone in, you know,

54:40

in all these situations. Where it would be

54:42

added. So it's not outside of the realm of

54:44

possibility that information about a, you

54:46

know, a dead family member might be on there, but

54:48

it does require, you know, a certain level

54:50

of notability And

54:52

but and so to me, it's like, alright. Well,

54:54

if you're an adult doing this,

54:56

that seems bad. Mhmm. On

54:59

you know, if if you're like a teenager doing

55:01

it, if you're like thirteen fourteen doing it,

55:03

you might just not know. Right? Like, you you

55:05

might not really get a good sense. You might think

55:07

you found a thing that really interesting. That's gonna give you

55:09

a little bit of, like, you know, presence

55:11

in the fandom. Right? And I'm the person who found

55:13

this thing. Mhmm. know,

55:16

made this connection. Isn't that interesting? And

55:18

and so that might make you do that stuff.

55:20

And so, I mean,

55:22

that's part of, like, the

55:24

if we talk about homestuck as a totality, the homestuck fandom also gets

55:26

treated as a totality, but it's not one.

55:28

Right? There's a huge different number of

55:30

segments and it's big enough for 2

55:34

to be as we found out doing the show. Right?

55:36

Holy separated segments, like,

55:38

truly. But nevertheless, this

55:40

is a phantom that talks about itself as if it

55:43

is one thing. Which is fascinating in itself too.

55:46

2, you know, that to me would be like 2

55:48

it is ultimately a thing you should not

55:50

do. The level of fucked upiness

55:53

to me has to do with what is the maturity level

55:55

of the person who's doing it? Did they understand

55:57

what they're doing? You know?

56:00

Mhmm. Did they understand the protocols

56:02

involved here? Used to learn protocols five hundred times in the past two parter sets.

56:04

Apologies to everyone involved. Mhmm. But, you

56:06

know, I think a lot a lot about that. But, yeah,

56:08

ultimately, that

56:10

that the vibes given off by that? Not good.

56:12

Yeah. Mhmm. Bad vibes. So

56:16

Yeah. I just bring it up because

56:18

people people came to to me about it

56:20

and came to the discord and talked about it afterward

56:24

because the The

56:27

reason I'm phrasing all of this very provisionally is

56:29

because Hussey never made any sort

56:31

of official statement about any

56:34

of this But nevertheless,

56:36

it seems like many

56:40

readers take up kind of

56:42

unproblematically just yeah. Like,

56:44

this this person died and that had an effect

56:46

on something about,

56:48

like, the pauses and, like, the comic kind

56:52

of sputtering. Toward the end. Right? Because there was, like, some sort of family crisis on

56:54

Huzzi's end. Again, no statement to this

56:56

effect has ever been made. It would all

56:58

be speculation. And

57:01

so I want to kinda, like, highlight that because this is another part of

57:03

what we were talking about in the in the previous episode

57:05

about how certain

57:08

premises or ideas about how

57:10

the comic works and why it works and the way

57:12

it does, where those things come

57:14

from in history? Like, what bring

57:17

this knowledge to the table that then,

57:19

like, sediments that knowledge in the

57:22

ways that fans discuss the comic and

57:24

in the way that the comic's history and

57:26

development are just like imagined to

57:28

exist. Right?

57:31

Mhmm. So there's

57:35

that. What do you

57:38

think of this

57:41

Dave Dirk stuff? It

57:52

It feels unearned,

57:56

mm-mm, broadly,

57:59

mm-mm, meaning that It

58:01

is taking things that are jokes from the

58:04

beginning. It's like I was talking about in the last episode.

58:06

Right? It takes things that were that were

58:08

one dimensional jokes. Of just goofy,

58:10

literally of choosing options that people

58:12

are presenting and playing out little

58:14

game with the audience. Mhmm. And

58:16

then rewriting them much more realistically

58:18

into character psychology. Yeah.

58:20

Mhmm. So I think broadly and

58:22

schematically, weird thing to

58:24

do. Mhmm.

58:26

But if you accept that that has occurred, which I

58:28

I cannot debate. It has, in fact, it

58:30

has it has been rendered text.

58:33

Right? Like, it's in front of me. A decision has been made

58:35

to do that. Mhmm. I think with it and

58:38

so to say, Big

58:40

2, I don't think I would do that. I don't I don't really like

58:42

that. I I don't I don't conceptually

58:45

like treating every moment

58:47

as a universalized moment

58:49

of character psychology. Right? Like, I think that that

58:51

robs the history of the comic a little bit more. This is also partially

58:53

why I read the David Milch quote though. Right?

58:56

Like, it is only by having

58:58

those moments in the past that they can

59:00

then be referenced here to create,

59:02

maybe, and here's where I'm transitioning into my

59:04

opinion about this thing. As

59:06

it exists, Maybe one

59:08

of the most touching moments in the comic.

59:10

Mhmm. And the most

59:12

intensely developed, this is

59:15

partially, you know, Like, I get why people like Dave. I've said this

59:17

a million times. Right? I get why there was such a

59:20

response to me at the

59:22

beginning being, like, whatever

59:24

on Dave. Right? You know, not really

59:26

liking Dave. And it's because,

59:28

truly, Dave has

59:30

been given mount

59:32

2 to climb and then

59:34

did it. Mhmm. And the Mount Everest, of

59:37

course, summoning Mount Everest here as

59:39

hugging his pseudo brother.

59:41

His pseudo brother, father. Yeah.

59:44

He's he's popping down. And having that little

59:46

little the art here impeccable. That

59:48

little when he's when he's hugging him and there's that

59:50

little, like, cheek smoosh

59:52

that's happening. Impeccable art, perfect

59:54

art. But but so,

59:56

you know, big parameters, I don't know if I

59:58

agree with the narrative strategy here.

1:00:02

Within the the thing itself. Yeah. I mean, look,

1:00:04

you you have taken someone from

1:00:06

the the the bottom

1:00:08

of the nadir of Internet

1:00:12

bullshit humor -- Mhmm. -- to the

1:00:14

most emotionally true thing that

1:00:16

someone could say. Right? In in

1:00:18

long form, near to 2, struggling

1:00:20

or or struggling. It's not the right

1:00:23

word. But dealing with complex

1:00:25

emotions is right about this person,

1:00:27

how you idealize them, who they

1:00:29

really are, should someone be responsible for your

1:00:31

mental image of them. Right? Mhmm. We're getting another

1:00:34

hint of author and

1:00:36

insert here. Right? Mhmm. It is notable that the

1:00:38

characters who

1:00:40

have his historically been kind of hushy inserts or or or

1:00:42

or or territorial

1:00:44

inserts, get to have these big emotional moments. But

1:00:46

then you have that, and then you get the flip side.

1:00:49

Which I kinda get a little bit more of a sense about why people like

1:00:51

dirt so much now.

1:00:54

There, you know, there is more

1:00:56

to dirt here in these, like, five pages

1:00:59

than to me than there ever was

1:01:01

before. Yeah. You know, I just don't

1:01:03

I I really don't get, like,

1:01:05

the fixation under as a character though,

1:01:07

a lot of people have. I just, you

1:01:10

know, I I not only, like, do do I

1:01:12

did I not experience that, but I didn't really get

1:01:14

it. Now I get Even if I

1:01:16

don't experience it. Mhmm. But but yeah.

1:01:18

Anyway, so I think it's I think it's interesting. I

1:01:20

think it's cool. It's got some of the best

1:01:23

well, anyway. Oh, no. You tell

1:01:25

me. How do I'm sure that people are losing their shit

1:01:27

about it. Oh, people fucking

1:01:29

love it. Oh, really? Yeah.

1:01:31

They Oh, like, it is

1:01:33

quote, a major payoff, quote, successfully

1:01:36

completed arc. People love

1:01:38

it. Like, successfully

1:01:40

completed arc. I mean, it is. It is actually a very traditional Literally

1:01:42

-- Yeah. -- he he summited emotional

1:01:44

everest and he got back down again.

1:01:47

Right? And, like, now it kinda doesn't matter if

1:01:49

he's able to kill Jack Moore. Right? 2 gives a shit? Mhmm. Right.

1:01:52

He had the emotional arc. Like, we're we're

1:01:54

we're on the letdown now. Who cares? Right.

1:01:56

Right. Day I

1:01:58

mean, it's almost like a dick from this point because Dave made peace with,

1:02:00

like, his bullshit. Right. I mean,

1:02:02

it's a beautiful moment of

1:02:05

Arcs don't matter, narrative devices

1:02:07

don't matter, all that hero sharding stuff

1:02:09

is is silly. Right? Like all the things we got in the

1:02:11

last part of soad, And then but then pretending,

1:02:13

like, that plot based arcs are the only thing that

1:02:15

exists. Right? Whereas, like, he got to have

1:02:17

a complete and very normal emotional

1:02:19

arc. Right? Like, he

1:02:22

went from being it's he's fucking Luke Skywalker.

1:02:24

Right? He went from being like a goofy little kid

1:02:26

who didn't really have any context for the world.

1:02:29

And was kind of like a goofy little jerk. And then,

1:02:31

actually, he's not. He's not. Look, Skywalker, he's

1:02:33

honed so low. You know,

1:02:35

no concerns, whatever.

1:02:38

And then he got a family, and then

1:02:40

now he gives a shit about stuff. Right?

1:02:42

And like he's gotta go blow up the

1:02:45

death star. Mhmm. I mean, Han Solo didn't do that, but you

1:02:47

you follow the Yeah. Yeah. Well, I

1:02:49

mean, Han Solo helped. Right?

1:02:52

Yeah. He

1:02:54

helped. And he was willing to help. And that was that was what made the difference.

1:02:56

Yep. Yeah. So, I mean, I would say

1:02:58

by and large, the the thread or I

1:03:00

should say, and this is alluding

1:03:03

to what I called in the previous part, so the

1:03:05

great sundering. Uh-huh. By

1:03:08

and large, the thread

1:03:11

really likes this. But those are the people posting in

1:03:13

the thread. I think there are a lot of people who

1:03:15

are checking out now and are just not talking

1:03:18

about it. And there are

1:03:20

people who plane about

1:03:22

this because they're like, this is so

1:03:24

2, because why

1:03:26

am I supposed to take stuff that was

1:03:28

presented as a joke five years ago, and,

1:03:31

like, was clearly presented as a joke, and now I'm supposed

1:03:33

to take it as, you know, something

1:03:35

with psychological depth.

1:03:38

And, like, Like, there are people who don't want to make

1:03:40

that move or who just,

1:03:42

like, don't think it works and they

1:03:44

complain about

1:03:46

it. there's

1:03:48

there's, I think, a smaller minority, but and this is,

1:03:50

I think, sort of notable because

1:03:52

there this is gonna be important

1:03:55

for the next part episode or

1:03:57

maybe the episode after. There are people in

1:04:00

the thread now who are kind of

1:04:02

known as dedicated complainers

1:04:05

or hate readers So and

1:04:08

this is this is the thing that

1:04:10

one of them in particular there's

1:04:12

a person in in the thread who's who's kind

1:04:16

of very critical reader who does not like Dirk and

1:04:18

does not like the way that Dirk is

1:04:20

handled, who does not find any

1:04:22

of this persuasive for some of the

1:04:24

reasons that

1:04:26

I've already underscored that it's like,

1:04:28

this was all just, like, jokes, and now it's

1:04:30

supposed to be 2, like,

1:04:32

family times, emotional issues, and

1:04:35

I just doesn't work for me.

1:04:38

And then the other kind of complain

1:04:40

about Dirk that that comes up is

1:04:42

that, like, Dirk has never seems

1:04:45

to have never been made

1:04:47

to or

1:04:50

I don't know how to put Dirk

1:04:52

has manipulative tendencies, but

1:04:55

doesn't seem to have like 2

1:04:57

of any of

1:05:00

them. Or, like, his

1:05:02

his manipulations are, like, more

1:05:04

severe. Like, Dirk as a character,

1:05:06

you know, aside from, like, stuff with bro and

1:05:08

Dave, the stuff Dirk has slightly more

1:05:10

severe to some readers than

1:05:13

the comic itself seems

1:05:15

to let on. 2, it's

1:05:18

sort of, like, implausible to

1:05:20

Pete's to some of these readers that,

1:05:22

like, anyone in, like, Dirk's friend

1:05:24

group would still want to hang

1:05:26

out with him after some of the stuff he's

1:05:27

done. Right? So, yeah, there's there's

1:05:30

all that kind

1:05:32

of like Yeah. III mean, that that makes sense. And

1:05:34

yeah. Oh, go ahead.

1:05:36

Oh, I didn't know if you had you had more to say. I was just

1:05:38

gonna 2, for this reading,

1:05:41

I was imagining Dirk saying everything in a Batman

1:05:44

voice. I

1:05:50

mean, in in

1:05:52

a general sense, it's

1:05:54

like, I think that a lot

1:05:56

gets papered over here

1:05:58

by jerk

1:06:00

emotionally responding and say and reconciling

1:06:02

with the fact that he has

1:06:04

done things that are bad. Mhmm.

1:06:07

know? like, look, I I did a bunch of stuff that

1:06:10

was manipulative. And he says explicitly.

1:06:12

Right? Like, it it's it subtext gets made

1:06:14

text here.

1:06:16

Right? Like, I did a bunch of stuff that was manipulative and bad, and I'm

1:06:18

regretful of it. Mhmm. Which again, much like the

1:06:20

brisket thing, that's so much more of a

1:06:22

real life scenario than

1:06:24

it is like a plotty plot scenario.

1:06:26

Right? Like -- Mhmm. -- it's there's

1:06:28

not divine judgment for doing bad things.

1:06:30

For the most part. Right? There is just you hopefully recognize

1:06:32

you're the bad thing and you don't

1:06:35

do it anymore. In in in

1:06:37

the vast majority of of actual

1:06:40

accountability in the world. Right? Which is

1:06:42

not what fans of things want.

1:06:44

Right? That's not really what we go to stories

1:06:46

for. We don't go to stories

1:06:48

for, like, nebulous outcomes for a, you know, long

1:06:50

standing emotional, you

1:06:52

know I mean, he explicitly calls it he

1:06:54

might not use the word abuse, but he's pretty close.

1:06:57

In terms of what he talks about his relationship

1:07:00

with Jake. Mhmm. Right?

1:07:02

And so, you know, I mean, to me, it was

1:07:04

just like, yeah, there's not

1:07:07

you know, like a tried and didn't come from

1:07:09

off screen and impale him and kill him. Right? Or

1:07:11

he didn't get punished by the plot. But I

1:07:13

also don't know if, like,

1:07:15

the the the story doesn't have to punish someone for them to --

1:07:17

Right. -- to come to, like, 2 truth.

1:07:20

Right? Mhmm. Now I don't know where Dirk came

1:07:22

to that

1:07:24

emotional truth. Like, just to be honest with you, I think that there's a lot that's left to

1:07:26

fan labor around dirt period.

1:07:28

Mhmm. But and I think this is probably a

1:07:30

place where that's happening. So I, you know, I

1:07:32

don't think moment to moment,

1:07:34

I'm following it, but I do think there's like

1:07:36

five, six pages however much it is. I think

1:07:38

enough happens in this conversation where

1:07:40

I'm like I'm caught up and onboard and I'm not mad about,

1:07:42

like, the way that it

1:07:44

happens. Mhmm. And I will say in a

1:07:46

broader sense,

1:07:48

this comic Seems

1:07:50

to assert in a general sense, right, assert

1:07:53

a strong word. This comic

1:07:55

is not interested in

1:07:58

thinking about emotional

1:08:02

violence or mind control

1:08:04

based violence at the same level

1:08:06

as stabbing

1:08:08

people. No. I I think that's true, but, like, can you

1:08:10

impact for me which what what are the levels

1:08:12

there respectively? I'm just saying, like,

1:08:14

Frisco's mind controlling people left and right

1:08:17

for a million years. And, like, there's not

1:08:19

for like, for that explicitly.

1:08:24

She's probably accountable for a bunch of other things,

1:08:26

but mostly it's because she's a huge asshole. Yeah. It has to be killed. Right? And it's really her plot aspirations

1:08:30

to get her killed

1:08:32

not her willingness to mind

1:08:34

control people left and right. Mhmm. The mind control of Jade

1:08:40

you know, that's like part of the villains

1:08:42

repertoire. That's not treated as any worse or better than any other kind of violence

1:08:46

in here. You know, long form manipulation to the

1:08:48

point of, you know, what what Dirk essentially

1:08:50

says is abuse. Right? Like, that

1:08:53

that is not treated at the same level

1:08:55

of severity as other kinds of violence, which

1:08:58

is fine. You know, I think Homestuck

1:09:01

implicitly, although

1:09:04

not explicitly, creating a kind of hierarchy of things that

1:09:06

characters should be held accountable for here. And I don't think

1:09:09

there's much thought about it. I think

1:09:11

just happening. Mhmm. But I can imagine in

1:09:14

a fandom space where

1:09:18

the investment in all of these kinds of character interaction

1:09:20

are kind of equivalent. Right? Like, I don't

1:09:22

get the sense in the homestuck fandom

1:09:24

that stabbing someone

1:09:27

and mind controlling them in

1:09:29

terms of like what you make them do and

1:09:31

the kind of violations that are involved there. I don't get it since they're treated all that Mhmm. And

1:09:34

so I could see

1:09:37

fans reacting to that being like, well, what

1:09:39

the fuck? Right. But I I think, you know, in the perspective of what is written in the

1:09:44

comic, Emotional abuse and manipulation

1:09:46

is just like one level down from, you know,

1:09:49

you know,

1:09:52

stabbing someone. Which weirdly enough also,

1:09:54

like, worldwide genocide is actually probably one level down from emotional abuse.

1:09:56

Right. In terms

1:09:59

of, like, it's severity. And

1:10:01

you're, like, repercussions for that too. So like, that chippy top is like, did you stab someone? You're

1:10:03

the worst. Then it's like,

1:10:06

did you mind control and

1:10:08

or emotionally

1:10:11

abuse them. Well, that's number two. And then number three is, like, blowing

1:10:13

planets up and genocide in the entire species.

1:10:15

That's number three. Right. And after that, it's just

1:10:17

it's a free for all. You can do whatever

1:10:20

you want. Being in

1:10:22

the insane clown posture. That's number four. Yeah. But So anyway, so that's my general thought about it.

1:10:24

So it's like, I

1:10:26

think if you disagree with

1:10:28

any step

1:10:31

along the way in

1:10:33

this dirk and

1:10:36

Dave stuff. Then

1:10:38

I can see you just not being on board. Uh-huh. But

1:10:40

I'm willing to 2. It it works

1:10:42

for me and it's it's compelling and

1:10:44

it's good writing. I I think it's really

1:10:46

strong dialogue writing. Yeah. Dirk here to me is more voicey than Dirk has

1:10:49

ever been in the past. Mhmm. And I do think

1:10:51

that this that's part of the reading

1:10:53

of Dirk maybe for some fans

1:10:55

is that you can apply

1:10:58

this dirk to the past and get a more full dirk. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. That

1:11:04

that constant move of

1:11:06

of retroactive continuity -- Yep. -- or backfilling or whatever.

1:11:08

And similarly, you

1:11:11

know, people are, well, one

1:11:14

of the other arguments that goes on in the thread is like,

1:11:17

oh, but what if what if the the

1:11:19

stuff with Dave early on

1:11:22

was intended to be

1:11:24

like, it was always a setup

1:11:26

for this. Right? We were always going to end up here, which I don't think is necessarily

1:11:31

true, and I do

1:11:34

III don't think you need to smooth out the discontinuities in the production of this thing

1:11:36

in in order to, like, appreciate what's

1:11:38

happening there, but also I think you

1:11:43

should recognize like when when these kind

1:11:45

of retroactive moves are being

1:11:47

made. And I just have to read

1:11:49

this because it's so funny. This is

1:11:52

a post coming in in the middle of

1:11:54

one of these conversations where people are going back and forth on, like, you know, well,

1:11:56

how like, how are we supposed to take

1:11:58

all of the stuff with bro back 2 2

1:12:02

and and forward. And this

1:12:05

I'm just gonna quote this person. There

1:12:07

was some post on the MSPA forums

1:12:09

from twenty twelve or something where Hussey

1:12:11

quotes someone who has taken a picture of a

1:12:13

thirty year old and a thirteen year old

1:12:15

and is using them as a demonstration

1:12:18

for why bro beating up Dave is

1:12:20

fuck up pausing here. Right?

1:12:22

So this is how long this kind of fandom read has been percolating that the stuff. Right? It didn't

1:12:24

come out of nowhere even though it first

1:12:26

shows up in the something awful thread.

1:12:31

A couple of partisans ago, these are

1:12:33

modes of reading or modes

1:12:35

of interpretation that I think have always

1:12:37

been around, but they start to, like,

1:12:39

coagulate or gain forced throughout the course

1:12:41

of the comics life. So there's a person on the forums apparently who is like, here's a picture of a

1:12:44

thirty year old. Here's a

1:12:46

picture of a thirteen year old.

1:12:49

It is it is fucked up for a thirty year old to beat

1:12:51

up a thirteen year old. This is true. I agree with this. Yeah. III

1:12:53

wanna be on record. I agree that

1:12:55

that is also true. 2 to

1:12:59

the post. So Hussey quotes

1:13:02

that and quote and

1:13:04

Hussey says something like

1:13:06

This post summarizes why bro is

1:13:08

awesome far better than

1:13:10

I could. The poster concludes

1:13:12

this thought with I think

1:13:14

bro was always supposed to be abusive.

1:13:16

Mhmm. So, like, the the moves there that this poster is

1:13:18

making are just like really interesting to me. Because

1:13:23

we have, like, very much forums Hassy responding. Like, someone on

1:13:26

the forums being, like, hey, you

1:13:28

have a thirty

1:13:30

year old beating up thirteen year old. And here's like what those

1:13:32

people actually look like, and that would be bad

1:13:34

if it happened in real life. And Hussey's

1:13:38

response is this explains so much better

1:13:40

like why why bro is

1:13:42

cool. Right? A a very flippant

1:13:48

forums poster response. But

1:13:50

then this poster says,

1:13:52

like, takes that to

1:13:54

mean, I think bro was always supposed to be abusive. Right. Which is to I mean,

1:13:56

part of it is like, okay. Well,

1:13:58

I mean, how would you know? Right.

1:14:03

Right? Like, Hussey is and

1:14:05

maybe this is like a transformation

1:14:07

in posting style. Right?

1:14:09

Right. Like, as sincere as,

1:14:12

you know, new sincerity Dave emerges at

1:14:14

the same time is like, since you're posting.

1:14:16

Right? Like, you know, Tumblr rings

1:14:18

in a good era. In some ways of people

1:14:21

not veiling themselves entirely

1:14:23

behind fifteen levels

1:14:27

of you know, online horse Mhmm. Right? Like, there are people who

1:14:29

are just saying what they think about things in

1:14:31

the world. And

1:14:34

that that's that was refreshing even at the time of, like

1:14:37

and of course, that gets caught up

1:14:39

in lots of other things.

1:14:42

Right? Like, like, sincerity becomes valorized,

1:14:44

and so it has its own kind of discourse

1:14:46

mode to it. Right? Like, I'm not this

1:14:48

is not a flat naive thing for me

1:14:50

to be saying. Right? Like, I understand all systems involved.

1:14:52

I was around and watched them happen. Right? But it it is

1:14:54

a different system than the one that exists before. And

1:14:57

so that it's kinda

1:14:59

fascinating to think about two

1:15:01

methods of online engagement even though they're happening on something awful, which presumably

1:15:03

this person is aware of the, you

1:15:06

know, these modes over there. Right? But,

1:15:08

like, That

1:15:11

to me reads like or or seems like two different styles

1:15:13

of being on the Internet running into

1:15:15

one another 2 having incompatible assumptions

1:15:17

about what the speech act on

1:15:20

the Internet. Is -- Mhmm. --

1:15:22

which is, you know, like and is this not the ultimate

1:15:24

I you know,

1:15:27

forms puppet master maneuver? You

1:15:30

know, Dave was being abused the whole time. Mhmm. I mean, yeah. Right? Like, I've that's that's why this that's

1:15:32

why this little anecdote is so

1:15:34

confusing to me because, like, what

1:15:38

2 seems to be doing 2, like,

1:15:40

Brent, like, not even seems

1:15:42

to be, like, Hussie if

1:15:45

this poster's report is accurate. Hussie

1:15:47

said that bro beating up Dave was awesome. Yeah. And

1:15:50

the read on that is, like,

1:15:53

he was always supposed to be abusive

1:15:55

and it's as get that? Where's the missing link

1:15:57

in the logic there? Yeah. I don't

1:15:59

know. Yeah. So,

1:16:02

I mean, I think it is a it's a transformation of

1:16:04

previous facts. Right? In the same way that,

1:16:06

you know, it's the it's moving

1:16:09

the hats on the chess pieces. Right? Like,

1:16:11

you thought Dave had a little goofy little childhood. But in

1:16:14

reality, he was being abused the

1:16:16

whole time. It's

1:16:18

it's doing a caliber.

1:16:20

Mhmm. That's why it works.

1:16:22

Like, I, you know, I think I I think it's hard to deny that if you like I said, if you

1:16:24

accept the parameters under which it

1:16:26

happens, which you don't have to,

1:16:30

2? We we we can all read the comment

1:16:32

and come to our own conclusion. So there is

1:16:34

not an objective truth of the right reaction

1:16:38

to have. But I think that if you accept the parameters as

1:16:40

well, it's well done. Mhmm. It it launches just

1:16:42

fine. I don't find the same thing. I don't know

1:16:44

if you how much more you wanna talk about 2. I'm

1:16:46

I'm happy to sit it on if you want, but

1:16:48

don't find the same thing to be happen

1:16:51

with Tyresi and Risca. I yeah. We can talk about Tyresi and

1:16:53

Risca, but before

1:16:56

we get they're on a slightly different

1:16:58

fork of this conversation where the it's similar questions are

1:17:00

being raised. What's

1:17:03

going on with Ganzi? So

1:17:07

in the most important

1:17:09

character in the whole comic, we

1:17:11

thought at one point. Mhmm. But

1:17:13

but we were fools. Well, he is the

1:17:15

most important character because he's in the main villain, and he also raised the main and I

1:17:19

got for sure. Created the main

1:17:22

villain by summoning him from the nightmare beyond reality.

1:17:25

But so

1:17:28

in the previous reading,

1:17:30

one of the, again, just extremely funny things that get said that I think a person

1:17:32

was saying in, like, all

1:17:34

earnestness, but it's such a anything

1:17:38

to say is that when Wirtgen

1:17:40

talks about how she has damzi

1:17:42

locked in the refrigerator, someone in the

1:17:45

thread is like, This is unfair

1:17:47

to gamesy. He is unfair to gamesy.

1:17:49

Let him out. Let him out. Let

1:17:52

gamesy out. Yeah. Look like

1:17:54

clown out. Goddamn.

1:17:56

You know, it's amazing to me 2 because it's like

1:17:58

how do you get to this point and you're like,

1:18:01

Like, I care about fairness for gamesy. I care about fair.

1:18:03

I'm that person I made that post. I I'm

1:18:05

in this picture. I show

1:18:08

me gamesy. Oh,

1:18:11

god. But so this is this

1:18:13

is also a great example for this reading,

1:18:15

a great example of how forums

1:18:17

work or, like, how discussions on

1:18:19

the Internet work at all because this

1:18:22

is a thing that happens. I've seen this happen in our discord multiple

1:18:24

times. Someone

1:18:27

comes into the thread, into the something awful thread and is like,

1:18:29

hey, you won't believe that there are

1:18:31

people on Tumblr who are

1:18:34

arguing for a gamzy redemption

1:18:36

arc. They're saying

1:18:38

it's going to happen or it

1:18:40

should happen because Gamzi is not actually

1:18:42

responsible for the things that he did.

1:18:46

Because and they do the

1:18:48

same move here that has

1:18:50

happened with Dave. Right? GAMZY had

1:18:52

a bad home life. We get

1:18:54

this very throwaway detail back during Gamsi's introduction that his lusus is often away at so we

1:18:59

can we can argue from this

1:19:02

point that he's had a kind of negligent upbringing. Also in Gamsi's introduction, it's

1:19:04

mentioned that he

1:19:07

eats the Soper's lime pies to

1:19:10

keep the voices of the like, I don't know, hell clowns from the future

1:19:12

or whatever out of his

1:19:14

out of his consciousness. Mhmm. So

1:19:19

gamesy is mentally ill. So really, like, we shouldn't

1:19:21

think of gamesy as a

1:19:23

villain here. Gamesy needs

1:19:25

to 2, like, recuperated in some

1:19:27

way. introduced into the thread if someone, like,

1:19:29

reporting what's going on in Tumblr. Guys,

1:19:32

check this

1:19:34

out. You won't believe it. And it follows a very very

1:19:36

internet pattern. The first couple posts

1:19:38

after this are like, oh my

1:19:42

god, that's so absurd. I cannot believe that anyone

1:19:44

would say this, that anyone would

1:19:46

have these thoughts or these interpretations,

1:19:51

it's absolutely ridiculous. Then eventually someone comes in

1:19:53

and says, well, actually when you think about

1:19:56

it, here's all the ways in

1:19:58

which this is actually a good

1:20:00

reading. And from that point

1:20:02

forward for the next, like, page and a half, people are just like having earnest discussion

1:20:05

about the thing

1:20:07

that was introduced as

1:20:10

something mockable. Right? That there are just,

1:20:12

like, some it's just Gamsi. Is

1:20:15

Gamsi responsible chat sincerely? Is there going to

1:20:17

be a Gamsi redemption arc sincerely from

1:20:19

that point forward. Right. And so

1:20:21

when I say that this is

1:20:23

so like exemplary of, like, online

1:20:25

discourse, it's precisely in this way

1:20:28

that, like, Something is introduced in a

1:20:30

particular context. Hey, here's a thing for us to laugh at. People

1:20:32

do the thing.

1:20:35

They laugh at it. And

1:20:37

then someone else has to come in and say,

1:20:39

well, actually and now

1:20:44

suddenly, like, The the thing that was introduced

1:20:46

has, like, dominated whatever conversation was going on previously.

1:20:48

Right? Do you you get you

1:20:50

know what I'm getting at Cameron? Yeah. Right.

1:20:54

Yeah. Should you make your

1:20:56

kid open a can of beans

1:20:58

or not? Yes. Should you bring your

1:21:00

neighbor chili? Uh-huh. Should you have

1:21:03

coffee with your husband? You you know what I mean? Like, the

1:21:06

the greatest pour more

1:21:10

ever recorded, closed after, you know,

1:21:12

fifteen thousand posts. Right? Like, yeah. Yes.

1:21:14

This is this is like a

1:21:17

cornerstone of online discourse -- Mhmm. --

1:21:20

which is like unilateral statements

1:21:22

about what is good and

1:21:24

true, and then fighting it

1:21:26

out. Mhmm. And and, you know, like, the it's in culture rated. Right? Like and

1:21:29

and it's

1:21:32

rewarded, particularly weirdly

1:21:34

enough on the forums, it's inculturated. Right? Like, the there's that's

1:21:36

the thing you do -- Mhmm. --

1:21:38

is you introduce content for content sake.

1:21:43

And then you argue about the content. Right. Right? Mhmm. This is, by

1:21:45

the way, for the most part, and and you

1:21:47

you said this come

1:21:49

upon the disc it has come up on the discord, but

1:21:51

really, honestly, on our our discord,

1:21:54

pretty minimal because we tried

1:21:56

to strongly curtail this kind of behavior

1:21:58

on our discord. Which is like, look at this shit. Mhmm. Right?

1:22:00

Like, in whatever that is, you know,

1:22:03

unless you have, like, a reason that

1:22:05

you care about the thing and

1:22:07

you wanna talk about and and

1:22:09

not in a look at this shit

1:22:11

way. Right? But, like, hey, look, this is this interesting positive or negative. Right? You

1:22:15

know, con we, many of our social systems

1:22:18

that are online mediated, are driven

1:22:20

by content

1:22:22

for content I want to be here and I want to be talking.

1:22:24

Let's introduce some shit to talk about.

1:22:26

Mhmm. And that to me is

1:22:29

just that I mean, that's one of

1:22:31

the fundamental problems with Twitter alongside algorithmic

1:22:36

amplification. Mhmm. Right?

1:22:38

Like, On on Twitter, not only do you need to introduce shit to

1:22:40

talk about, but you get rewarded for talking

1:22:42

about whatever. You know, it as long as

1:22:44

someone is talking about it and you can aggregate

1:22:46

that into a bigger number for your self,

1:22:49

then you're rewarded for doing it.

1:22:51

Right? So, like, the incentives are extremely perverse in that way. But but

1:22:55

the the the just pure

1:22:57

mechanism of content for content sake to generate some conversation to entertain me in the short

1:23:00

term. That I think that 2

1:23:02

up in bad outcomes for the most

1:23:04

most point

1:23:07

or most of the time. So we tried

1:23:09

to really strongly curtail that. And

1:23:11

to mostly good results, I mean, we have

1:23:13

a whole rule about it. Yeah. And if you

1:23:15

come to this court, a buy by rule of

1:23:17

five point one. Mhmm. Yeah. I implore

1:23:20

you. But, yeah, that I mean, that makes

1:23:22

a lot of sense. And look, homestock gave you the

1:23:24

tools to do that. Right? Like, homestock

1:23:26

made this world, but this world made

1:23:29

homestock. Right?

1:23:32

Like homestock's We've talked about this a million times.

1:23:34

Right? The ability to debate minutiae in the background of homestuck

1:23:36

and argue about whether or

1:23:38

not it's important or not, is

1:23:41

based on or or is predicated on,

1:23:43

and the storytelling its method itself is

1:23:47

in conversation with the online

1:23:49

discursive patterns that existed before. Mhmm. That's why we did about this episode on

1:23:51

loss. Yep. Right? It we haven't

1:23:53

done it, but maybe we will, you

1:23:56

know, it's not

1:23:58

scheduled, but maybe it'll be a bonus. As I've said before,

1:24:00

right, after the show is over, we'll have a few

1:24:02

more bonus sides to go through to do,

1:24:05

but that's arrested development too, which is so crucial

1:24:07

earlier. Right? What detail in the background is going

1:24:09

to come up again later 2 be really

1:24:11

actually important? Mhmm. Right?

1:24:14

Dead Dove do not eat.

1:24:16

Or do not open. Yeah. Yeah. And if you wanna check

1:24:18

out the but yeah. So let's yeah. Yeah. Go

1:24:20

ahead. Sorry. So if you wanna

1:24:22

check out any of the bonus odes

1:24:24

that we've already done, either on lost or

1:24:26

future bonus codes, possibly on arrested development, you can go to range touch dot com or 2

1:24:29

can go to patreon dot

1:24:31

com slash range touch where

1:24:34

you can support us and get access to those

1:24:36

bonus notes at the ten

1:24:38

dollar tier. Much appreciated. I think

1:24:40

there's lots of really good conversations happening

1:24:42

there. We really appreciate all of

1:24:45

the support that we've gotten so far over

1:24:47

the course of this project. I've

1:24:49

I've talked about this extensive hopefully that

1:24:51

it helps me keep reading the

1:24:53

posts. God help me.

1:24:56

And if you wanna help

1:24:58

us out any other way, you can suggest us,

1:25:00

recommend us by word-of-mouth to your friends

1:25:02

because we don't do any advertising

1:25:04

other than talking about ourselves on our

1:25:07

own shows or shows guest there. The other

1:25:09

thing you can do is leave

1:25:11

us a five star review on your

1:25:13

podcast platform of choice. And if you

1:25:15

leave a five star review

1:25:18

that is also funny, there's chance that Cameron read it a future ad so,

1:25:24

maybe? Yeah. You gotta

1:25:26

leave a five star review. Can't leave less than five

1:25:28

stars. I'll leave

1:25:30

the five star review. 2

1:25:33

get right on the show. That's the

1:25:35

deal. We got a we got a a review from

1:25:37

zero Alexander. Now that I feel an overwhelming urge to

1:25:40

use the term

1:25:42

in my everyday life, how should I explain the wizard's

1:25:44

corner to my friends and family? Now

1:25:47

here's an interesting thing, zero

1:25:49

Alexander. Perhaps it is my lack of

1:25:52

elocution. But the term that

1:25:54

we use is the wizards quarter.

1:25:56

Mhmm. Which

1:25:59

is the final quarter or the final

1:26:01

fifth. I forget what the actual or

1:26:03

the final tenth. Something What

1:26:06

was it calculated? Yeah. It's some bass. Like the some part, last quarter

1:26:08

of a baker's dozen or something. I

1:26:10

don't know. That's right. That's right. It

1:26:13

is the last quarter of a baker's

1:26:15

dozen. You're right. it's not the wizard's corner. However, I'm

1:26:17

willing to fold that in. Mhmm.

1:26:19

I'm willing to give a well, let's

1:26:21

do the wizard's corner too. What's the wizard's

1:26:24

corner? Yeah. Yeah. It's the

1:26:26

fifth corner at a game of four square. There

1:26:32

you go. And you got a

1:26:34

you got a war over it. That's actually what's happening narratively here in homestuck is that there's a corner

1:26:36

and different characters

1:26:39

are jockeying for positioning. In

1:26:42

the metaphor that is the fifth

1:26:44

corner in in there. So thanks to

1:26:47

zero Alexander for introducing new

1:26:49

terminology. Now that we have both a wizards corner

1:26:51

and a wizards court sure -- Mhmm. -- you know, we'll be using that going forward. So thanks so

1:26:54

much to Zero Alexander for

1:26:56

that

1:26:57

five star review and you can leave a five star review too. We only

1:26:59

are known by word-of-mouth. We are like sequencing up actually

1:27:02

and like the podcast. Apple

1:27:05

Podcast rankings. Mhmm. You know, we're, like, we're getting up there. It's, like, critical role

1:27:08

than us. You

1:27:10

know, we're at that

1:27:12

level. So give

1:27:14

us that five star view. It helps out. Actually, it legitimately helps out a lot. Getting people to know about the show. thanks

1:27:16

to everyone who 2

1:27:19

reviewed. Yeah. Thank you. Just

1:27:23

to talk a little bit very briefly, we get to the Tressey Briska stuff, but

1:27:25

I I promised we need to describe for people

1:27:27

who aren't reading. What is going

1:27:30

on with the ARQIAS Dave Petta

1:27:32

Hug? You're gonna

1:27:34

have to explain. Well, it's it's it's very grody looking.

1:27:40

So this page, which

1:27:42

is page oh,

1:27:47

it's it's not the same anymore. This is one of interesting interesting things. So

1:27:49

there is still a tumbler.

1:27:52

I I mentioned this in the

1:27:54

summary that, like, when this hug happens,

1:27:56

then the comic is

1:27:58

like, by the way, you should take a picture of yourself. Right? Take

1:28:00

a selfie with this in the background

1:28:02

and post it to social media. Joke

1:28:07

the Internet with your selfies or something is the

1:28:09

way that it's phrased. So there are still

1:28:11

tumblers. I'm gonna just actually send you

1:28:13

one of these Cameron so you

1:28:15

can look at it. Can you give me

1:28:17

a page number on the hook? I don't Yeah. I'm trying to

1:28:19

find it because this is what's confusing is that the the selfies are

1:28:22

called 9828

1:28:24

selfies. But that's

1:28:26

the old style of homestuck's numbering before it got changed. then it's 7828.

1:28:30

Yes. Okay. Yes. 2, it's

1:28:32

not. Okay.

1:28:35

Well, I tried I tried You tried. It's

1:28:37

792879

1:28:40

I'm sorry.

1:28:42

Mhmm. Sorry. Because I did when I saw that, I would look down at the

1:28:44

thing. I was like, oh, this is pretty close.

1:28:46

Mhmm. Oh god. Yeah. It's loud. She's

1:28:50

extremely loud and ugly.

1:28:52

I don't know about that. I

1:28:54

do like the extremely well defined ass. It's like this. And like the ass

1:28:57

has abs below it on,

1:28:59

like, the spray tail. So,

1:29:03

I mean, when I say ugly, I mean

1:29:05

that with all due affection and respect because this

1:29:07

is an art asset by a

1:29:09

a fan artist who went

1:29:11

by the name IPGD or I punch gay deer.

1:29:13

Okay. It was it was a time you could call

1:29:16

yourself anything on

1:29:18

the Internet and still can.

1:29:20

Yeah. And she was most well

1:29:22

known for basically doing shock art,

1:29:27

like extremely a grotesquely detailed and explicit

1:29:29

images of, like, sweet bro

1:29:31

and hella jeff performing oral sex

1:29:33

on each other and that sort

1:29:36

of thing? I'm looking it

1:29:38

up. Yeah. Go ahead. Don't you? I gotta know. Yeah. I can't you

1:29:40

can't introduce that and

1:29:43

and not have me. I

1:29:46

mean, I'm I'm further record. I'm also not I'm

1:29:48

just I'm not gonna reblog this to

1:29:50

the to the fan art You can Oh,

1:29:52

come on. Oh, okay. Maybe I'll put it under

1:29:55

a cut. No. No. You don't have

1:29:57

to. The what? It's actually kinda I

1:29:59

can't find it. Don't you

1:30:01

know what? I can't find it. Don't I was

1:30:03

gonna say, if you can't find it, I know where to look for it,

1:30:05

but No. I don't wanna know. I don't wanna

1:30:08

know. I I

1:30:10

have my my dark You

1:30:12

know, here's the reality is that sometimes it's much

1:30:14

like that the ear cutting scene and reservoir dogs. Right? Sometimes

1:30:16

your imagination is more powerful

1:30:18

than what you could see. It's

1:30:22

how I feel about what what you're describing. So -- Yeah. -- just let me I'll I'll I'll, you know, with

1:30:27

my mind. Mhmm. So this image exists.

1:30:30

It's like Arquia Sprite and Dave Peta

1:30:32

hugging. And it's

1:30:35

not like sexually explicit, but

1:30:38

again, it's like grotesquely detailed. It's what it's truly what Bakhtin would have called grotesque realism

1:30:43

that emphasizes like the physicality

1:30:46

of the flesh and sort

1:30:48

of, like, folds and wrinkles

1:30:50

and sweat. Like, just the the

1:30:53

weird un not unstable, but

1:30:55

the open soft

1:31:00

manipulable reality of

1:31:03

flesh. And they're

1:31:05

hugging while a

1:31:08

really loud annoying

1:31:10

song plays and it keeps flashing

1:31:13

back and forth between them

1:31:15

hugging like Sweet Bro and Hella

1:31:17

Jeff hugging each other and saying that's what the

1:31:18

reference, which is a sweet bro and hella jeff reference. Right? This is a callback to

1:31:21

sweet bro and

1:31:24

hella jeff trying to figure

1:31:26

out how to hug one another in

1:31:28

one of the those comics. And then

1:31:30

there's just a huge long description underneath it.

1:31:33

The greatest reunion in homestuck history, nay, the

1:31:35

greatest moment. It does not get better than

1:31:37

this. It will not get better

1:31:39

than this at some

1:31:42

point possibly during the fifth or sixth loop

1:31:44

of the above animation, which you can't seem to

1:31:46

stop watching and listening to, a thought occurs to

1:31:48

you, etcetera. And this has all been worth it.

1:31:50

It's all been worth it for here. It's Yep.

1:31:53

Yep. This happens. Like, it it's there.

1:31:55

The other thing that IPGD did

1:31:57

that I wanted to mention

1:31:59

was I talked about the

1:32:02

Sweet Bruin Hellijeft book. She also did the cover art for that, like the big fancy book that and she

1:32:04

did it in

1:32:07

the style of What

1:32:11

is it? Is it

1:32:13

sun Sunday at

1:32:16

Lagron Jot? Okay.

1:32:20

Yeah. What what do you is that

1:32:22

what the painting is in in you're

1:32:24

talking about, what

1:32:27

do you call it, Penny in the

1:32:29

park with George? Yeah. Yeah. A Sunday afternoon on the island

1:32:31

of Lagrange -- Oh, that. -- by by George

1:32:34

Sarat, like a very

1:32:36

famous point list impressionist

1:32:39

painting. And so

1:32:41

the the cover of

1:32:43

the Neoshima hatch the

1:32:46

cover of the sweet bro. Touching the

1:32:49

hatch. Blah blah blah

1:32:51

blah blah blah blah. The

1:32:53

cover of the Sweet Brew and

1:32:55

Hellijeft book is done by IPGD. as a parody of this, but

1:32:57

with, like, all the Sweet Brew and

1:33:00

Hellijeft characters. So

1:33:03

that's the sort of thing that she did. Also, just,

1:33:06

I guess, to mention

1:33:08

it, because if I don't, someone

1:33:10

Well, IPGD was the one who

1:33:13

gave all of the

1:33:15

alleged details about alleged mismanagement

1:33:17

of funds during the game

1:33:19

development and was eventually told to take it down by what

1:33:21

pumpkin? Fast man. Yeah.

1:33:23

So that's there. Anyhow.

1:33:27

This this exists. It's Arquia

1:33:29

Sprite and Dave Sprite hugging

1:33:31

each other, and this

1:33:33

is presented after Dave

1:33:36

and Dirk have their whole heart to

1:33:38

heart. And it's interesting to me

1:33:40

2, like, it's it's the same

1:33:42

scene repeated but as a joke. Right? Like, these are

1:33:45

both it's a version of Dave and a

1:33:47

version of Dirk, like, embracing,

1:33:49

but now in, like, this weird, like, parodic

1:33:51

way that also follows

1:33:54

on from Arkea Sprite

1:33:56

launching all of

1:33:59

the grist caches into 2.

1:34:01

So again, if you're not reading how this works, the kids are still building up their

1:34:03

houses. That's still part of the game. So the houses

1:34:06

have been built up from the planets. And

1:34:08

then at top,

1:34:11

this kind of like oil daric is installed by Arquios.

1:34:13

And then the wrist shoots out

1:34:15

of that into Skye, which is

1:34:17

at the center of like

1:34:19

the the medium. And Hussey talks about

1:34:21

in the book commentary about how this is obvious

1:34:24

fertility imagery. And

1:34:28

was always intended to be there.

1:34:30

And of course, this is the job given to ArQuleus, who

1:34:33

is 2 this

1:34:35

big muscular like I

1:34:37

guess, pervert, right, who's constantly thinking about sweat and fluids and

1:34:40

touching things.

1:34:44

So Great. Love love this

1:34:46

through line of homestuck. Lots of fun. Sure. Truly. This is

1:34:48

I think I said in

1:34:51

a million episodes ago, you

1:34:54

know, the the things that you said

1:34:57

about homestuck as it was running, had

1:34:59

this, like, weird even if you said

1:35:01

them as a joke, Right? Even if it was

1:35:03

joke speculation, it would have this weird way

1:35:05

of coming around and just

1:35:07

coming true. Way back in,

1:35:09

like, twenty eleven, twenty twelve, sometime around there. I have a post on the something awful forums in the homestuck thread,

1:35:11

where I speculate

1:35:16

that this is how Skye is going to work, that you build

1:35:19

up the house, you put a thing on top, and you shoot all of

1:35:21

the wrist into Skye,

1:35:23

and I explicitly say

1:35:26

and this would be done as, like, obvious phthalic and yonic, like fertility

1:35:32

imagery. And then I end the

1:35:34

post by saying, actually, that would be gross and silly, and it shouldn't happen. And lo and

1:35:36

behold, Here

1:35:40

we are. It's happening and according to the

1:35:42

author commentary was always going to happen. So Well, this is not

1:35:46

your graphic. Yeah. Because if it were, it would be

1:35:49

Homestuck. This is just

1:35:56

a multicolored garbage flying out of

1:35:58

an oil derrick into the earth. That that's as close to a sexual

1:36:01

image as you

1:36:04

can get. So,

1:36:06

yeah, that's that just to tie off that incredible plot thread.

1:36:09

2. So

1:36:14

that I guess we can talk about the stuff with Therese and Brisko with this flash, which called

1:36:16

remember. And

1:36:20

just to run around ahead of you, Cameron, so you

1:36:22

can then give your response. Thread loves this a

1:36:25

plus -- Mhmm.

1:36:28

-- like, emotional capstone. People are disappointed

1:36:30

that this comes with the announcement of another hiatus,

1:36:32

but people are like, after

1:36:34

seeing this, I am confident that

1:36:38

homestuck will deliver a

1:36:41

good ending because this

1:36:43

feels like so on

1:36:45

point to them. Mhmm.

1:36:47

Yeah. I mean, I just I I don't think

1:36:49

it works in the

1:36:51

same way that Dave

1:36:54

and Dirk do. Partially because it's

1:36:56

done almost entirely through monologue. Mhmm.

1:36:58

Right? I mean, before the actual

1:37:00

flash itself, right, we get

1:37:02

this long monologue from Therese. And then and

1:37:05

then, like, you know, wordlessly through images. Mhmm. And the

1:37:07

images here are not particularly interesting to me.

1:37:09

I mean, it's just, you know, they

1:37:11

find one another. Yeah. The

1:37:16

yeah. The the reason I don't

1:37:18

really in order to make

1:37:20

Dave and Dirk work. And

1:37:22

maybe my reaction here actually has to do with the fact that we just got Dave Dirk -- Right. -- in this

1:37:24

kind of long emotional journey that

1:37:26

we get over the text and

1:37:30

how it connects up with some stuff that we've had over the

1:37:33

past couple acts, particularly

1:37:35

around Dave's development. I

1:37:38

I don't think the same amount of work's been

1:37:40

done in the comic around Therese. Mhmm. Like I just don't

1:37:42

think it's happening. I think you can draw a line

1:37:45

between classic Therese through her

1:37:47

self sacrifice. Right? And

1:37:51

her decision to undo

1:37:54

the killing of RisksCA to get here. Right? Like, I I there's no, you

1:37:57

know, from

1:38:00

this position. You

1:38:02

can see a clear line all the way back. Uh-huh. Right? So so it's grounded. It's grounded. If you accept

1:38:04

the terms under

1:38:07

which it occurred, it

1:38:10

is it is grounded. Right? So, like, that's

1:38:12

not where my unhappiness

1:38:15

comes from or my Yeah.

1:38:17

I think Teresa got done dirty, basically. Like,

1:38:20

Vriska as a character dead,

1:38:22

Vriska did not have to get

1:38:26

2 she changed in

1:38:28

a way that was developmentally interesting

1:38:30

for her. Right. Good or bad

1:38:32

who knows. Right? But I think

1:38:35

that she transformed and had a lot of introspection in the dream bubbles in

1:38:37

order to get herself there. And we get a

1:38:39

lot of track kind of

1:38:41

laid to this. I think a lot of the trek for

1:38:44

Terez just got laid, like, in the in the

1:38:46

past five pages or, you know, before this happens,

1:38:48

this monologue. Mhmm. I

1:38:50

think so much of Terez has

1:38:53

to get hallowed out in order to make room

1:38:55

for this that it doesn't feel like

1:38:59

the same character. And I guess you could say the