0:00

Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. At Mint Mobile, we

0:02

like to do the opposite of what Big

0:04

Wireless does. They charge you a lot, we

0:07

charge you a little. So naturally, when they

0:09

announced they'd be raising their prices due to

0:11

inflation, we decided to deflate our prices due

0:13

to not hating you. That's right! We're cutting

0:15

the price of Mint Unlimited from $30 a

0:17

month to just $15 a month. Give

0:21

it a try at mintmobile.com. $45

0:25

up front for three months plus taxes and fees. Promote it for

0:27

new customers for a limited time. Unlimited more than 40GB per month.

0:29

Mint Slows. Full terms at mintmobile.com. Want to find the

0:31

perfect Father's Day card? Dad

0:33

deserves better than a drugstore card. This

0:36

year, surprise him with a special personalized card

0:38

from Moon Pig. You

0:40

can add your favorite photos and a heartfelt

0:42

message. Plus, no more

0:44

worrying about stamps or going to the post office,

0:47

because we'll mail it for you the same day.

0:50

Every dad deserves a Moon Pig card. Get

0:53

your first card free with code PODCAST

0:55

at moonpig.com www.moonpig.com

1:03

Who doesn't love costumes? We

1:06

play dress up as kids. We

1:09

plan for Halloween for months. And

1:12

not to get deep here, but

1:14

aren't all clothes costumes.

1:17

The way we dress is part of a performance of

1:19

who we are. We all

1:21

know the power that can come from a certain

1:24

outfit. How it can make us feel

1:26

totally different. Whether

1:28

or not you personally care about clothes, I

1:30

think we can all agree that they matter.

1:33

And they matter a lot in movies.

1:36

Especially in rom-coms. A

1:40

cornerstone of many rom-coms is the

1:42

makeover sequence or the fashion show.

1:45

Think of the shopping scenes in Pretty

1:48

Woman, where Julia Roberts totally changes her

1:50

look. Or the montage in 27

1:52

Dresses, where Katherine Heigl

1:54

tries on all of the bridesmaid dresses in

1:56

her closet. A

1:59

lot of rom-coms silence. simultaneously operate

2:01

as a fashion magazine, giving

2:03

us gorgeous aspirational outfits to

2:05

look at and covet. How

2:09

to Lose a Guy in 10 Days

2:11

has the iconic yellow dress, of course.

2:14

But there is also fascinating costuming

2:16

throughout the movie. When Andy

2:18

is trying to hook a guy, she dresses one

2:20

way. When she's trying to lose him,

2:22

she dresses another way. Her clothes

2:25

are one of the ways that we are

2:27

clued in to which version of herself she's

2:29

portraying, and it tells us

2:31

something about what this movie thinks annoying

2:33

women. Costumes

2:36

tell a story, and I

2:38

have so many questions about what story

2:40

they are telling in this film. To

2:42

help me analyze them today, I'm talking

2:44

to Colin Wilkes. Colin

2:47

is a costume designer who's designed theater,

2:49

opera, puppetry, TV, and film

2:52

in many genres. Her

2:56

design work on Romcoms includes the 2020

2:59

Hulu movie Palm Springs and the 2022

3:01

Netflix movie Look

3:03

Both Ways, who's currently the designer

3:06

for the Apple Plus show McDoor

3:08

Prize. I'm Vanessa

3:10

Zoltan, and this is Hot n' Buttered.

3:13

Hi Colin! Thank

3:25

you so much for coming on to talk

3:27

to us about costumes. Hi

3:29

Vanessa, thanks so much for having me. It's

3:31

a pleasure. Okay,

3:34

so what does a costume

3:36

designer do? You arrive

3:38

at your first day of work, and

3:41

like, is there a brief who

3:43

tells you what your job is, how do you decide

3:45

where to go, all of it? Well,

3:49

typically it's a one-person show when

3:51

we first get the script, so

3:53

there's this really magical

3:56

incubation time where you've been hired

3:58

on a project. project, you've probably

4:00

done a pitch so you have a little bit

4:03

of a lookbook or at least some basic

4:06

imagery as jumping off points for the

4:08

project. But then this

4:10

is probably about a couple weeks

4:12

where you're just flying solo, able

4:15

to really dig your teeth into the

4:17

project. So it's the research

4:19

time. It's really kind of getting

4:21

familiar with who these characters are

4:24

and thinking about the world. And

4:27

then it kind of blooms

4:30

out and you get to hire your team. And

4:32

then that's when the physical part starts,

4:34

where you start to gather all of

4:37

the images and then start shopping. All

4:39

of your team has all of their

4:41

things to do. And then

4:43

it's about four to six weeks is

4:45

a typical feature length. So

4:47

that gives us a pretty short amount of

4:49

time actually. And then we get the actors

4:51

around last two weeks of pop

4:53

and then we go right to camera. And

4:56

so if you get

4:59

a script and it says,

5:01

Nancy is preppy, who

5:03

decides what prepping means?

5:06

Are you going to the screenwriter and saying,

5:08

what year is this taking place? How are

5:10

you figuring out what that look means? It's

5:14

a good question because obviously

5:16

these kind of touchstone archetypes

5:19

that we see have

5:21

really evolved over the last 20

5:24

years. And so prep

5:26

now can look very different. So

5:29

typically what I like to do is have

5:31

my interpretation of it. So I'll put

5:33

a mood board together. And

5:35

then if the writer is involved, because

5:38

sometimes so the loss involved, sometimes the

5:40

writer is the director, they'll have

5:42

ideas too. And we kind of marry them. And

5:44

the other kind of key component of it is the actor.

5:47

I mean, a lot of

5:49

times actors can be great

5:51

chameleons, but it's like, can

5:54

this person rock this book? And if they

5:56

aren't cast, you really kind of have this

5:58

moving target. I'd say. How are

6:00

they going as fast as Bill, You

6:02

know? So.

6:05

Sometimes. When. You watch

6:08

a movie that or or tv

6:10

show right like this World has

6:12

a very distinct style. It's not

6:14

necessarily about any like individual character.

6:16

There's of vibe of the horseshoe.

6:18

So. Who are you collaborating

6:21

with as a costume designer or

6:23

you like talking the set designers

6:25

so that it's the background is

6:27

wait they can wear blue and

6:29

up paw who you talk until

6:31

grade class and I mean nothing

6:34

states a integral part says with

6:36

your flab. A leader in a

6:38

local be attacking thing, so that

6:40

kind of t communication. Is anything and

6:42

have a way that I like to kind of

6:45

approach products and. Three offer

6:47

a. Nasty miles away. Like

6:49

take things apart and look at them.

6:51

Bet with story. I like to kind

6:53

of. Focus. On details

6:55

that one part. So how

6:57

is so awesome? Sitting on

6:59

the body? Where are the kind

7:01

of two components? Does it mean that

7:04

she wears the whole time or as

7:06

that life of assholes in there he

7:08

is as these tiny green he thinks.

7:12

He is. He is solvable

7:14

and eating. Key

7:16

part of talking to your

7:18

collaborators: The Deep Sea. The

7:20

production. Define a set decorator.

7:22

All of that, how is

7:24

this body composed in the

7:27

frame in space? And. Then

7:29

a third as. Really? Looking

7:31

added on the macro scale of

7:33

how is this person looking through

7:35

time and space, so how the

7:38

character developing and how's the story.

7:40

Kind of hoping that happen. So.

7:43

It is a really important piece of that

7:45

to be able of say. Okay, well. What?

7:48

Is it a mostly same when

7:50

we are making a pop and

7:52

a red against a wife and.

7:55

using. All those kind of visual

7:57

cues to help us with story as

7:59

really. powerful. So yes, very

8:01

important part. You

8:04

have worked across a lot of different genres.

8:06

I am wondering if you

8:08

get a brief, and it's like you

8:11

are making a rom com. What

8:14

does that tell you immediately about certain things

8:16

in terms of how you design? Rom

8:19

coms are specifically fun because

8:21

I know I can be

8:23

playful. There are more liberties

8:25

that I can take to help

8:28

drive the story of the

8:31

kind of like excitement of love,

8:34

what that kind of flirtatiousness looks

8:36

like, how we present ourselves as

8:38

our best selves. It's

8:41

a little bit more exploratory, and

8:43

you're getting to maybe create a

8:46

world that can be a little bit more

8:48

vibrant because it's tonally it feels a little

8:50

more light on its feet. Yeah.

8:53

So when you're watching a rom com, what

8:55

are you looking for that I wouldn't

8:57

know to look for? When are you

9:00

like, wow, that person did a

9:02

really great job. This is so well designed. Are

9:04

you like, I do that differently?

9:07

I really like to see the most

9:10

real authentic version of how we

9:12

live and how we dress ourselves

9:14

and how we are

9:16

in our intimate spaces, how we are

9:18

in our public self. You

9:20

know, rom coms can kind of turn

9:23

in that operational way where I feel

9:25

like they get a little too shiny

9:27

and they lose the luster of the

9:29

humanness. I think that does hurt

9:31

story. And my perception of things because

9:34

of how we want, we

9:36

want to view ourselves in these

9:38

characters, right? That's what helps us take the

9:41

journey with them. One of

9:43

the first movies I remember really noticing

9:45

costumes was in reality bites. I

9:47

was like, oh, Winona Ryder is wearing

9:49

the same dress for her internship that

9:51

she wore at graduation. But she's wearing

9:54

a gap shirt that she probably got

9:56

for free because her roommate works at

9:58

gap over that like I was like,

10:00

yes, this makes story

10:02

sense. Like she's broke,

10:05

so she's layering free items.

10:08

I really like that. Yes,

10:10

totally. And I think the other

10:12

thing I look at is really

10:14

kind of what color story is

10:16

saying. Is there kind of the

10:18

stylistic choices that the designer has

10:20

made or the production designer? And

10:22

how is the cinematography kind of

10:25

like guiding those things through

10:27

story? Well,

10:29

OK, so what is the color story of

10:31

how to lose a guy in 10 days?

10:34

You know, it's really interesting because

10:37

this is a fashion rom-com. I mean,

10:39

for sure. You've got the

10:41

low-key luxury. Andi is decked out all

10:44

the time. But I

10:46

do like how instead

10:49

of color story, it's more just about

10:51

how much of a chameleon she is.

10:53

It's kind of a fun thing to

10:56

look at who Andi is

10:59

in these different settings,

11:01

right? Like the simplicity of when

11:03

she goes home within

11:06

and how kind of

11:09

classic a time once all of these looks

11:11

are, really. And I think that's what kind

11:13

of like helps it stand the best of

11:15

time too with a story like this. But

11:18

there are sort of like two different

11:20

Andi wardrobes. There's like cool

11:22

slash real girl Andi. And

11:24

then there's trying to get

11:27

Ben to break up with

11:29

her annoying Andi. I

11:31

have some questions about annoying Andi's costume.

11:35

Why is matching

11:37

annoying? Because

11:40

annoying Andi has a dress with a

11:42

matching headband and a matching bag. Why

11:44

are we like, got it, she's annoying?

11:46

I'd break up with that matchy lady.

11:50

Something that is so uptight,

11:52

I think visually that we

11:55

see about someone like

11:57

that. It's so visually a lot. like

12:00

the need to be seen and the kind

12:02

of garishness that comes with it.

12:04

But I think that that is where as

12:06

an audience member we have an actual

12:09

reaction and that's where those

12:11

kind of costume moments can really play to

12:14

our advantage when

12:16

we are designing Karancoms because

12:18

it's like there's these cues of

12:21

the matching shirts at the Fleeing

12:23

Beyond show and they're so fucking

12:25

loud and garish she

12:27

has that moment where she breaks in

12:30

to his apartment when they're playing poker

12:32

and she has a matching purse it's

12:34

like a polka dot and then it

12:36

has a matching dress with it but

12:38

there's that kind of 50s female

12:41

silhouette too which I

12:43

think also speaks to her

12:45

playing the part a little bit more

12:47

in those spaces of say candy. Yeah

12:51

I had not been able to

12:53

articulate why matching is coded as

12:56

annoying and it is it's because

12:58

you're picturing her going home at

13:00

night and emptying out that purse

13:02

in order to put all of

13:04

her belongings in her new purse

13:07

that matches her outfit for tomorrow

13:09

and it just shows a level

13:11

of controllingness in organization.

13:13

Yeah it's very type A if

13:15

you have a purse for every

13:17

outfit. Yes yeah. I

13:20

barely have a purse for any outfit.

13:23

And there was this you know the era

13:25

of it kind of transitions

13:27

right where I mean I remember

13:29

when having the Kate Spade bag

13:31

was really popular and now it's

13:33

back and so I mean this

13:35

is a particularly unique film because

13:37

the early author they're fire right

13:39

now so I feel like revisiting

13:41

those kind of things is

13:44

really interesting because they're

13:46

popular again but they can go

13:48

out and say something else at

13:50

a different time when you're watching it you know what

13:53

I mean. Oh this person is

13:55

wearing it in this era they're not really

13:57

clued into what the fashion is so it's

13:59

really a like about setting

14:02

time and place too. And when

14:04

you're watching it. How

14:07

do you think cool girl

14:09

Andy is coded to us? How are we

14:11

supposed to know that this is like someone

14:14

we'd want to hang out with? I

14:17

think because she

14:19

has this balance of chic,

14:22

timeless, feminine, it's

14:25

flirty, and there's such a

14:27

variety that we see her in, you know,

14:29

we see her sunbathing with her fins and

14:32

casual clothes and then in an A-tank

14:34

and jeans that, I mean, I still

14:37

don't totally understand the trends of having

14:39

the top button on buttons, like

14:41

they're almost done, but I'm all for a low

14:43

raise coming back, whatever. But you

14:45

know, in that way that there's all these

14:47

kind of subtleties in the way she wears

14:50

things. She's like forever

14:52

cool girl without being

14:54

too dated. And there's a lot

14:56

of beige. I mean,

14:58

on everybody. Yeah, it's a lot

15:01

of monochromatics, beige. What

15:04

do you make her

15:07

Staten Island outfit? Staten Island

15:09

is this like very strange

15:11

place where she's like kind of

15:13

being cool girl Andy, but also

15:15

still has to be annoying, losing

15:18

Ben Andy. And so she shows

15:20

up in this white dress. Is

15:22

that supposed to be coded as

15:25

annoying Andy or is that cool

15:27

Andy? Usually I can be like,

15:30

got it, annoying Andy. Yeah, I

15:32

think there's some pieces where, and

15:35

I can't speak to Karen's kind

15:37

of like visual mapping of how

15:39

the story plays out with how

15:41

she's dressing, but it feels like

15:43

there's a little bit of neutral

15:45

zone, right? Where we see this

15:48

kind of vulnerability emotionally in

15:50

those moments. So it's kind of

15:52

nice to have the lines

15:54

blurred where you don't know, you know, and

15:56

I think that that gets a little bit

15:58

more of a of insight

16:00

into kind of how their relationship

16:02

actually is unfolding

16:05

naturally. And yeah,

16:07

I didn't pick up on one way or the

16:09

other in that part either. I

16:11

guess I love a costume that

16:14

makes me imagine another scene. And

16:17

with this outfit, I can imagine Andy being

16:19

like, what do I wear?

16:21

Because I don't want to be a dick

16:23

to his mom. Yeah, totally. Like the care.

16:25

I still have an assignment to do. But

16:28

like now other people are getting involved. So

16:30

like, what do I wear where I can

16:32

stay in character but not be a total

16:34

asshole to these totally unassuming people? Yes, for

16:37

sure. So there's that outfit. And then, you

16:39

know, when they're riding on his motorcycle

16:42

and they get splashed with water and

16:44

it's like, who cares? And they're both

16:46

in these very simple outfits, which I

16:48

think is just such a nice drip

16:50

down version and seeing them kind of

16:52

fall in love. And outside of their

16:54

space, outside of the elements of the

16:56

facade of work and having to put

16:58

on a front in many different ways,

17:01

like all these different personas. Can

17:04

you talk to me about Matthew

17:06

McConaughey's clothes in this movie? What am

17:09

I supposed to know about Ben based

17:11

on his clothes? He is

17:13

a guy that clearly doesn't take a

17:15

lot of feminine influence. I

17:17

mean, and this speaks to also

17:19

where costume design and production design

17:22

play with each other, you know,

17:24

like, so we go into Ben's

17:26

office and we see kind

17:28

of mirroring a lot of his color palette and

17:31

these denim

17:33

and deeper blues and then he throws on

17:36

a work shirt. So who does he become

17:38

at work? You know, he's not somebody that

17:40

wants to be uncomfortable and he's kind of

17:43

like tight clothes. And they're both people that

17:45

feel able to be themselves in their

17:47

work environment, knowing who they are. You know what I

17:49

mean? Which I think is kind of a nice thing

17:52

and scene in their costumes because there's

17:54

a comfortability and a kind of like

17:57

casualness they both have. It was

17:59

a lot of fun. likeable for both of them. You know

18:01

what I mean? It wasn't stuffy and over

18:04

the top. Want

18:08

to find the perfect Father's Day card? Dad

18:11

deserves better than a drugstore card. This

18:14

year, surprise him with a special personalized card

18:16

from Moon Pig. You

18:18

can add your favorite photos and a heartfelt

18:20

message. Plus, no more

18:22

worrying about stamps or going to the post office

18:24

because we'll mail it for you the same day.

18:27

Every dad deserves a Moon Pig card. Get

18:31

your first card free with code podcast

18:33

at moonpig.com. moonpig.com.

18:38

A lot can happen in three years,

18:40

like a chatbot may be your new

18:42

best friend. But what won't change? Needing

18:44

health insurance? UnitedHealthcare Tri-Term Medical Plans, underwritten

18:46

by Golden Rule Insurance Company, offer flexible,

18:48

budget-friendly coverage that lasts nearly three years

18:50

in some states. Learn more at uh1.com.

18:53

Okay, I have a question that I've been dying to

18:55

ask someone for months. How

18:59

much are items like Matthew

19:01

McConaughey's t-shirts tailored

19:04

to fit the actor in a

19:06

very particular way? Or is that really

19:08

just like a Hanes medium t-shirt and

19:11

Matthew McConaughey looks that great in

19:13

everything? Well, you know what? It can be

19:15

a little bit of both and every single actor

19:17

is different depending on their

19:19

body. But oftentimes we will

19:21

just build the dress shirts from

19:24

scratch. And I think that's kind of the key

19:26

way. If you want that iconic look that is

19:28

like zipped up and

19:31

just so tight, that's where you

19:33

go. But I am

19:35

pretty sure that Matthew McConaughey looks

19:38

good in pretty much everything. Really?

19:40

You don't think that those t-shirts are brought in

19:43

at the arms to show off his arms? Oh,

19:45

100%. I don't think that's

19:47

true. Oh, 100%. I

19:50

don't know though. I just, I felt

19:52

like, yeah, everything looks good on him. There wasn't

19:54

one thing that didn't. But it was, yeah, it

19:57

was a lot of t-shirts and jeans. No,

20:00

but are they like, is this

20:02

movie magic? Are they tailoring? Of

20:04

course. T-shirts. When you're creating an

20:07

object of desire, you want that

20:09

whole package to look just

20:11

like you want, you know? So

20:14

I would imagine there was some tailoring

20:16

and finessing to kind of just really

20:18

dial that in just right. Did

20:20

somebody go up to him right before they

20:23

said action and perfectly do that pearl

20:25

to fall across his forehead? Look,

20:28

I just really think that Matthew McConaughey

20:30

always looks that good. OK.

20:36

What else did you notice? Like,

20:38

do friends shop

20:40

at Old Navy? Like, what are we supposed

20:42

to think about that? Yeah, I think that

20:44

those archetypes were super

20:47

failed. I especially was

20:49

struck by the polo

20:51

with, I think, it was

20:53

like a gingham or micro

20:55

checker button front shirt over

20:57

it, which I don't remember being popular,

20:59

like a button front over a polo.

21:02

But I was very there for it. You can

21:04

take a little bit more liberty in these kind

21:06

of characters that you aren't seeing on camera the

21:08

whole time to make them a little

21:11

bit more caricatures, but just take

21:13

them an extra mile. And so I

21:16

really appreciated the sweater vest with the bow

21:18

tie. Those kind of moments where

21:20

I feel like it builds out the world texturally

21:22

and kind of creates these characters

21:25

that immediately you know who they

21:27

are. And I think it kind

21:29

of really helped flavor it and give

21:31

it a little bit more dimension. I

21:34

also just really liked the

21:36

use of the Duke shirt

21:39

on Ben and just these kind

21:41

of subtle ways of telling, saying

21:44

something without saying something. So it's not just

21:47

all t-shirts. And

21:49

I think that those are

21:52

impressionable moments that viewers

21:54

really do take with them. They

21:56

needed to really pad a lot of reasons as to

21:58

why this other person was there. an accent as

22:00

living in New York City. I know.

22:03

And he went to Duke. Yeah, wow. No one

22:05

that I know that went to Duke came out with

22:07

an accent. But you know what? That's okay. No,

22:10

that's not how accents work. No. I

22:12

agree with you. But it's how Matthew

22:15

McConaughey works because he can get away

22:17

with anything with his

22:19

accent. Okay,

22:21

talk to me about the dress. The

22:24

dress. So I get

22:26

a little bit of digging. So

22:28

Carolina Herrera designed this dress with

22:31

the costume designer. And

22:34

the thing about moments like this

22:36

that I find so impressive

22:38

about costume design is what

22:41

we're saying and not

22:44

saying things, right? So of

22:46

how impressionable something this simple

22:48

and elegant can be. And

22:50

I mean, it just had, I think, ever sort

22:53

of on TikTok not too long ago, actually, where

22:55

everyone was obsessed with this dress again. Really?

22:59

Yes. So it is fascinating to

23:01

think about. So this silhouette maybe,

23:03

you know, kind of drop waist,

23:06

maybe not so popular anymore, but it

23:09

has this open back. And

23:11

it goes back to I don't know if you remember

23:13

and I thought, I don't know who was helmet lane

23:15

or who the designer was of the

23:17

first date dress where she it

23:19

was also backless. Again, you're

23:22

seeing these two sides of Andy, which I

23:24

found to be kind of a beautiful compliment

23:27

is very elegant and then also

23:29

playful and very feminine open back. I

23:31

mean, obviously, Kate Hudson can wear a

23:34

burlap sack and look incredible. So it's

23:37

a beautiful moment that has totally

23:39

stood the test of time. I mean, they

23:41

did an incredible job with that dress and

23:44

everyone tries to replicate it. But I

23:46

think so much of its success is

23:48

about how simple it is, that color

23:50

and how that dress

23:53

looks in space. You know what I mean?

23:55

It's like a beautiful silk catches light in

23:57

a certain way and has this elegant elegance

24:00

and this fairy tale kind of softness

24:03

for this very kind of like

24:05

the soft emotional raw scene. And

24:08

I think that it really plays to that part of

24:10

the story. My theory

24:12

on the dress is that it's

24:14

basically a naked dress. You have

24:16

to look twice because of

24:18

the color and the color of her hair. It

24:21

feels like what you're actually

24:23

looking at or what Ben is actually

24:26

looking at is how beautiful Andy is.

24:28

And we are being shown this like

24:31

artifact of 23 year old

24:33

Kate Hudson. And when she spins,

24:35

we're like, yes, that is a

24:37

beautiful woman. Yeah. And

24:39

it feels like the woman is wearing

24:42

the dress rather than the dress wearing

24:44

her. Yes, definitely. I mean, and that's

24:46

again, speaks to

24:48

like, this was a collaboration specifically

24:50

for this moment, specifically for this

24:52

project. And there is

24:54

something so powerful when you're

24:56

designing about kind of creating

24:58

something for moments. It's

25:00

just like, so her

25:03

you're seeing her and just like kind of like

25:05

this aura of perfect

25:08

beauty, you know, do you

25:10

have a favorite look of Kate Hudson's in the

25:12

movie? I do. That's why. Is

25:14

this your dress? Is it the dress? No.

25:17

It's not. I do

25:21

love the blazer. And then she wore just

25:23

like a baby tee that had just like

25:26

a little bit of a little something. Yeah.

25:28

And when she's bowing out

25:30

of her job, I

25:32

love couples therapy, Andy, her like

25:35

Jackie Kennedy matching lipstick. Yes. Yes.

25:37

Oh my gosh, that was so

25:39

funny. So it's like a pink

25:42

sleeveless polo with like a kind

25:45

of Peter Pan collar. And you're like,

25:47

Oh, God, what cost or did she

25:49

get this from? So I

25:51

love it for that moment. Yeah, I know.

25:53

I think she looks fantastic

25:56

as Jackie O inspired Yacht

25:58

Club mom. Yes,

26:00

yes. That scene is also

26:02

so interesting because Ben is

26:04

in a white suit, so they

26:06

kind of match, but he's being

26:08

himself and she's not being herself.

26:11

It's very interesting. I've

26:13

watched this movie too many

26:15

times, Colin. Would

26:18

you say it's your favorite rom-com? Oh,

26:20

God, no. I am

26:23

a dedicated journalist covering this

26:25

film. I love it. Colin,

26:28

thank you so much. I

26:31

could talk about costuming forever. I love it.

26:34

I have very strong opinions about it, and I

26:36

appreciate you giving me baby vocabulary to start to

26:39

try to think about it critically and not just

26:41

as a fan. So thank you. And

26:43

I love Palm Springs costumes. Thank

26:45

you. I really do.

26:47

Thanks. At

27:06

the beginning of the series, the

27:08

brilliant comedian and not sorry communications

27:10

manager, Hannah Reehack and I, looked

27:13

closely at the scene in which Ben and Andy

27:15

do not have sex. Today we are

27:17

going to look at the episode where it is

27:19

insinuated that they might, all we know for sure

27:22

is that they shower together because

27:24

they are water conservationists, and I

27:26

really respect that about them. But

27:29

let's discuss the scene by getting the

27:31

wonderful Hannah Reehack on the phone. Hi,

27:42

Hannah. Hi. Okay.

27:45

I'm so sorry because I know this stresses you

27:47

out. Can you please

27:49

recap what happened in the scene? Yeah, no,

27:51

no, no. I was actually watching this time

27:53

around. I was like, you're going to have

27:55

to recap Hannah. Remember that.

27:57

Okay. So the scene picks up

27:59

with. with Andy and Ben. They're all wet

28:01

and messy because they were on the motorcycle,

28:04

they got splashed, they giggle together, they rush

28:06

home back to his childhood home to go

28:08

to the bathroom clearly to

28:10

clean themselves up. And

28:13

Ben starts getting the shower ready and he kind

28:15

of looks at herself in the mirror and is

28:17

just being, seemingly being herself kind of taking stock

28:19

of how she looks in the mirror. And then

28:21

we see her get really reflective as she sits

28:23

on the toilet and kind of waits for him

28:25

to turn around to say the shower is ready.

28:29

She sits on like the toilet with a closed

28:31

toilet. Like she's using it like a chair. Yes.

28:33

Oh, sorry. I just wanted to clarify.

28:35

Yeah, she starts to use the toilet.

28:40

And basically at some point, Ben is like,

28:42

you know, what's going on? Kind of like

28:44

notices she seems a little down and she

28:46

goes, says something like, I love everything about

28:49

this home. And he makes a little joke.

28:51

And then she's like, and you know, earlier when your mom hugged

28:53

me, she really hugged me for

28:56

winning at a game of bullshit. And

28:59

he's very sweet and comforting to her. And

29:02

now I've liked that because it gets really romantic and steamy. And

29:04

so I don't actually remember the dialogue. I just know

29:06

that like his eyes get all soft and she starts

29:08

to, you know, really take him

29:10

seriously and look at him in the eyes.

29:12

And then he's like, give me a smile.

29:14

And she makes a really stupid, silly little

29:16

smile. And they kind of joke about it.

29:18

He's like, okay, there you go. Not bad.

29:20

And then ultimately she lifts up her hands

29:22

for him to take off her tank top,

29:24

you know, an invitation for him to finish

29:26

the job. And she does the same

29:28

for him. And then

29:31

we stay on their faces while

29:33

she undoes his pants and they get into the shower. And

29:36

she seemingly goes into the shower with her pants

29:38

on. She really might, but she

29:40

also is giggling at some point in a way where I'm

29:43

like, okay, I think they're making up each other's pants. But

29:46

most importantly to me, she goes into

29:48

the shower with her like nice

29:51

gold watch on. And I don't

29:53

feel like that's a waterproof watch. No,

29:56

doesn't that bother you, Hannah? I'm like,

29:58

wait, your watch. You know

30:00

it really doesn't but I feel like

30:03

that means that movies might just be easier for me

30:05

to watch because I may I May let go of

30:07

a lot more than it looks

30:09

like a really nice watch. She's a journalist She

30:11

probably couldn't afford that watch between this probably a

30:13

gift So does this mean that

30:15

you don't love this scene because I have to say for

30:17

me best scene in the film. Oh Absolutely,

30:20

it's about being in the film. It

30:22

does this great Transition

30:25

while watching it now. I'm like wow

30:27

her article is screwed, right?

30:29

She isn't gonna lose him

30:34

I think ultimately the reason I say it's my favorite scene

30:37

in the film is because we've been talking

30:39

about comedy in the film And we've been

30:41

talking about their respective comedic performances, and I

30:43

think they do such a great job of

30:45

it But again the cringe doesn't really work

30:47

for me So like I love a good

30:49

comedic scene, but for me I think

30:51

this movie actually does a really great job at the

30:53

romance when it's given the opportunity The

30:56

moment that she gets really sad it's

30:58

an honest true emotional reaction that she's

31:00

having it's not fake Andy

31:02

it's real Andy and he absolutely

31:04

like rises to the occasion of

31:07

being like her partner in that moment trying

31:09

to make her feel better and like meet

31:11

her where she's at and I think they're

31:13

both like kind of following one another's lead

31:15

in terms of the physical

31:17

sexual encounter like there's also I think

31:20

that really holds up super well where

31:23

There's a lot of nonverbal consent Which

31:25

I'm really into in films because I'm

31:27

like always impressed when a filmmaker can do

31:29

that really well We were like no no

31:31

no they're showing us their respective Consents by

31:34

her lifting her arms and just like waiting

31:36

for him to take off her shirt But

31:38

yeah, I think that's I think it like makes us

31:40

care about the real versions of them

31:42

It makes us trust real bad that it makes

31:44

us care about real Andy. Yeah The

31:47

scene right before this of them riding

31:49

the motorcycle and him Genuinely

31:51

teaching her and like believing that she is someone

31:54

who can drive a motorcycle and her feeling Safe

31:56

enough to try to learn a new thing with

31:58

him and him not being a jerk about

32:00

teaching her, right? Like, and then

32:03

this scene do so

32:05

much work for me of like wanting the two

32:07

of them to be together and the last third

32:10

of the movie working where

32:12

you're like upset that they fight, you

32:14

know, and have their karaoke break up.

32:16

Cause you're like, no, no, no, you

32:18

guys just figured out that

32:20

you're actually good together. Yeah, you're

32:22

compatible. Do you want to guess what the

32:24

one thing about this scene that doesn't hold up for

32:26

me is? The fact that

32:28

there is a dentist magazine rack

32:31

in the bathroom with the

32:34

people magazine in it. But I

32:36

also did find that kind of distracting. Who

32:38

drilled that into the wall? Who was

32:40

like, we need a magazine rack

32:42

in here. And rather than like letting them pile

32:44

up on the floor was like, no, no, today's

32:46

the day I get the drill out. Well,

32:49

it wasn't that. If that's not it, what is it for

32:51

you? It could possibly be, and it's not the watch. It's the song.

32:53

The song that is doing the heavy lifting

32:56

of like early 2000s pop. Like

32:58

I've waited my whole life for this

33:00

moment. It

33:02

feels like home to me. It feels like

33:05

home to me. And I'm like, you know,

33:07

we got that. We actually didn't need all

33:10

of that. We know. We got it. Hannah,

33:15

I'm so glad you brought this up. I am

33:17

wondering if I can read to you. Our music

33:19

specialist who was on a couple of weeks ago

33:22

sent us some information about the song.

33:24

It feels like home. So

33:26

first of all, most importantly, it is also

33:28

on the Dawson's Creek soundtrack. I knew that in

33:31

my bones. I knew that in my bones. And

33:36

since Dawson's Creek raised me like

33:38

I wanted to be Joey two

33:41

days ago, my mother said I watched a lot of

33:43

Dawson's Creek with you as like a trump

33:45

card for an argument we were

33:48

having. And were you

33:51

like, you're welcome? Yeah, truly.

33:54

Well, anyway, so the cover

33:56

of this song is sung

33:59

by Sean Antel Krevjazic,

34:01

who sung at

34:03

Lilith Fair, which is like

34:05

the rest of the people

34:07

who Andy says she loves to

34:10

listen to sang at Lilith Fair.

34:12

And so there is this great real

34:16

Andy likes Lilith

34:18

Fair, even though

34:20

she is pretending that fake

34:22

Andy does as an unattractive thing. And

34:24

I flip and love that. I love

34:26

that real Andy is like one of

34:28

the things that men find unattractive about

34:31

me is that I like angry feminist

34:33

music and like I'm actually going to

34:35

use that from my own personality to

34:37

turn off Ben. And so

34:39

does that make you feel better about this song?

34:41

Yeah, it totally does. And I will say it's

34:43

not even like I think it's a bad choice. I

34:45

just think it's a dated choice, whereas everything else I'm like, Oh, this

34:48

could be 2024 like easy. I

34:50

could see this scene in an indie film, right? You

34:52

know, like I could see it, but no, that makes

34:54

so much sense. And I also think that that's

34:57

cool to do to the audience to like

34:59

force them to acknowledge that

35:02

they appreciate that music that we'd

35:04

all been laughing at, like

35:07

you're saying, like 45 minutes earlier or whatever it was

35:09

or half hour earlier in the film. And

35:11

that like in this moment as an audience member,

35:13

if you are enjoying that music, which let's

35:15

assume most audiences, like that's why it's

35:18

being placed here. It's like, this is doing the work of

35:20

the scene to like make it feel real and make it

35:22

feel romantic. And then it's like,

35:24

I think it's a little bit of like a gotcha, which I appreciate.

35:26

I think that's really cool. Anything

35:28

else? I wish they

35:30

hadn't turned away to the towel rack at the end.

35:33

Keep the camera on them. That's

35:36

the other thing that makes it feel dated. Oh,

35:38

see, I feel like I was just being

35:40

distracted by the watch and some like show me

35:42

the towels. Show me the towel

35:45

where she's going to try to save her

35:47

watch later and be like, I wish I'd

35:49

taken off my grandmother's watch that I got

35:51

as my high school graduation present. The

35:54

swatch has a backstory, Hannah. Why don't you care

35:56

about it? You can't wait to read your fan fiction

35:58

about it. It's from the watch. perspective,

36:01

Hannah. You've

36:09

been listening to Hot N' Botherd. We're a

36:11

small show so we need your support to

36:13

run. If you can,

36:15

please consider supporting us on Patreon

36:17

at patreon.com slash Hot

36:20

N' Botherd. If you love the

36:22

show, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts.

36:24

We are Not Sorry Production. Our

36:27

executive producer is me, Vanessa Zoltan.

36:29

Our consulting producers wrestle me, and

36:31

we are edited and produced lovingly

36:34

by Ariana Nevenman. We are distributed

36:36

by 8cast. Thanks, as

36:38

always, to our soulmate-level patrons, Gretchen

36:41

Sneake asks whose window we would hold a

36:43

boombox outside of, Molly Riele, who we would

36:45

chase through an airport to declare our love

36:47

to, Becky Boo, who we would wait for

36:49

hours on the top of the Empire's debut-ling

36:51

for, Elizabeth Schweisenberg, whose heart we would play

36:53

a game of one-on-one basketball for, Lauren Baier

36:56

O'Connell, who we would call up on stage

36:58

to dance with us in front of the

37:00

whole summer camp, and Claudia Hammerman, who we

37:02

would give the whole door the float on,

37:05

even if there was room for both of

37:07

us. Special thanks this week

37:09

to Colin Wilks, and thanks, as always, to

37:11

our team, Julia Argy, Nikki

37:13

Zoltan, AJ Aramas, Hannah Rehak,

37:15

Margaret H. Willison, Courtney Brown, Natalie

37:17

Volkovic, and Stephanie Pulsow.

37:27

Want to find the perfect Father's Day card? Dad

37:30

deserves better than a drugstore card. This

37:33

year, surprise him with a special personalized card

37:35

from Moon Pig. You

37:37

can add your favorite photos and a heartfelt

37:39

message. Plus, no more

37:41

worrying about stamps or going to the post office,

37:44

because we'll mail it for you the same day.

37:47

Every dad deserves a Moon Pig card. Get

37:50

your first card free with code PODCAST

37:52

at moonpig.com moonpig.com

37:57

Welcome to another round of drawing

37:59

board. or Miro board? Today we

38:01

talk brainstorms with UX designer Brian. Let's

38:04

go. First question. You thought you'd see

38:06

everyone's idea in the team brainstorm, but

38:08

you've got a grand total of one.

38:11

Drawing board or Miro board? Drawing board,

38:13

right? Because in Miro, the team can

38:15

add ideas now or later. And with

38:17

privacy mode, we can keep them anonymous

38:19

until they're good to share. Correct. Next,

38:22

you need the best way to explain your

38:24

idea, but all you have is a few

38:26

sticky notes. Drawing board or Miro board? Drawing

38:28

board, because you know, in Miro, I

38:30

could record videos, add text, images, links, and

38:32

digital sticky notes, of course, present my thoughts

38:34

the way I want. Right again. Now, you're

38:37

looking for a past leader you thought

38:40

was just genius. Only you could find,

38:42

oh, there it is. Drawing board or

38:44

Miro? All our finished and unfinished work

38:46

lives in one place. And

38:48

he's won. Join over 60 million people

38:50

getting ideas noticed in Miro brainstorm. Get

38:52

your first three boards for free at miro.com.

38:55

That's m-i-r-o.com.