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3:46
Alright, let's get to it. Nice
3:49
to meet this week, one of our very first
3:51
guests on the show, Gary Erickson,
3:54
Founder of: Cliff Bar. Gary Erickson, welcome
3:56
back to the show. It's so awesome
3:59
to have you. The back and take your guy.
4:02
I'm scary when you are on the
4:04
show you and your partner kid or
4:06
still the owners of Clif Bar at
4:09
the time. Ah, those your employees also
4:11
owned a significant chunk aren't in. And
4:13
twenty twenty two after thirty years you
4:15
sold. It wasn't and and I know
4:18
that in that time has that over
4:20
this thirty years did gas field the
4:22
tons of acquisition operas need to find
4:25
some of them off. And
4:27
in fact, ah, I think that listeners
4:29
who remember. Who Hurts Represent Remember. Quite
4:32
emotional moment in our conversation when you talked
4:34
about walking away the first time you had
4:36
knocked acquisition offer and you to come up
4:39
with a money to buy out your first
4:41
partner. Yeah. I still
4:43
have. Known as
4:45
nightmares. Of what if
4:48
I would have sold the company in
4:50
two thousand? Yeah, that was
4:52
after only eight years in business, which
4:54
is a long time, but I can't
4:57
even describe the exponential. Growth.
4:59
And on. Good.
5:02
Things we were able to pull off
5:04
over the next one. twenty two years.
5:06
Yeah. and if we would have sold
5:08
it, yeah, I probably I'd be fine.
5:10
I'm happy anyway. I'm happy living in
5:12
a garage like Ice they do demonstrates.
5:15
I did I do know which I
5:17
said what's your bikes as I which
5:19
I did before I met my wife
5:21
and I guess. I'm
5:24
just so thankful that dumb weed but
5:27
we. We escaped that moment and went
5:29
with the gut reaction in the heart
5:31
and both of us decided this is
5:33
what we're gonna do and we did
5:35
a for twenty two more years and
5:37
you turned it into one of the
5:39
biggest energy bar brands on earth. One
5:41
of the things that I I love
5:43
about how you started Clif Bar with
5:45
with the initial you focused on a
5:47
community of people that you were a
5:49
part of which in your case of
5:52
cyclists, you're an avid cyclist. You go,
5:54
I know, you do these loans
5:56
cycling ships are europe and italy
5:58
multiple times a year You
6:00
started by getting the product into their
6:03
hands, into cyclists' hands. Was
6:05
that critical, do you think, to Cliff
6:07
Bar's eventual success? It
6:10
was the path to success, for
6:12
sure. Many ways to say
6:14
that, but that's how I feel right
6:16
now. I think the
6:18
two sports that I was deeply
6:20
involved in were, well, three, actually.
6:24
Cycling, I did some triathlons before
6:26
that, and then I climbed
6:28
since... At that
6:30
point, I was about into 20 years of climbing. So
6:33
I went to each of those groups and would
6:35
just pass out bars. I knew
6:38
I had Tiger by the Tail
6:40
when I was able to
6:42
go to multiple, either climbing crags or
6:44
bike races, and just literally hand out
6:46
the bars out of my car, and
6:49
for free. So
6:51
I take this, and their reaction sold it to me,
6:53
and then from there on, it was just, as
6:55
I say, hang on to the reins from
6:58
year one to...we never did not grow for 30
7:00
years. And
7:03
what started out with a
7:05
small group of people, cyclists,
7:07
triathletes, climbers, eventually became a
7:10
mass consumer product with
7:12
moms and kids and people on the go
7:15
and people going to the gym and people
7:17
just getting some energy. But it
7:20
really...it's interesting, because so...I think
7:23
a lot of really great products start that way. They
7:25
find a small, narrow
7:28
group of people who
7:31
love it, and then from
7:34
there, that group helps to grow it
7:36
out into something bigger. You
7:38
have to have that foundation first, and then from there
7:40
you go out. If you're going to try to go
7:42
mass market, you
7:44
have to have so much funding to be able to do
7:46
that, and chances are it's not going to work, because you've
7:48
got to build that base. Yeah. Well,
7:50
Gary, so you ready to take a call? Yes,
7:53
let's go. All right, let's go. First caller on
7:55
the line, I think it's James. James, are you
7:57
there? I am here. James,
8:00
introduce yourself. Tell us the name of your
8:02
businesses and where you live. I'm
8:05
calling in from LA, Los Angeles,
8:07
actually from the Tech Stars Accelerator
8:09
Program Podcast Studio. I'm
8:12
representing Stope Plastics and
8:14
Opolis Optics. We transform
8:16
ocean waste plastic into
8:18
sustainable performance plastic. And
8:21
we're making everything from adventure gear to
8:23
luxury hard goods. And tell
8:25
me what your question is for us. Yeah,
8:28
sure. How did you cut through the noise
8:30
when building Cliffs Bar and effectively
8:33
communicate your product's unique benefits in
8:35
a way that resonated with consumers
8:37
and made them choose your product
8:39
over the competition? All
8:41
right. We're going to get to your question
8:43
and to Gary's answers in a moment. But
8:45
if you don't mind, indulge me. I have
8:47
some questions for you first. So
8:50
you – so your company is called
8:52
Stoked Plastics. And
8:54
you basically use recycled plastics to
8:57
make things like sunglasses and ski
8:59
goggles. Is that right? Yeah.
9:02
So our specific or unique niche
9:04
is that we use water bottles,
9:06
ocean bound and ocean found. Okay.
9:09
So just to be clear, you've got Stoked
9:11
Plastics, which is the technology company that makes
9:13
this recycled material. And
9:15
then you create a separate
9:18
brand called Opolis, which makes
9:21
sunglasses and ski goggles
9:23
using the Stoked Plastics
9:25
technology. Correct. And we
9:27
started off making, you know,
9:29
sunglasses and goggles. But now
9:31
we're doing prototypes for buckles
9:33
and trims and coolers
9:35
and really anything that uses
9:38
a high density of our
9:40
pet or PET in manufacturing.
9:43
Yeah. And now I'm understanding a little bit more.
9:45
So when you look 10 years from now, is
9:49
Stoked Plastics the material supplier
9:51
of this great plastic that
9:53
you're providing? Is that going to be 98%
9:56
of the business? And Opolis is there
9:58
as a kind of – grounding thing
10:00
or signature or you know the other way around. So
10:03
Opolis Optics at this point is almost
10:05
our proof of concept for stoke plastic
10:08
about the capabilities that we have through
10:10
our IP but essentially we
10:12
would love to replace all virgin pet
10:15
with with our our stoke plastic
10:17
IP for us and we want
10:19
companies and brands to be able
10:22
to use our stoke plastic in
10:24
their manufacturing and I have our
10:26
icon right there so when consumers
10:28
are shopping they know that it's
10:30
affiliated with sustainability, circularity and performance.
10:33
It's a really interesting idea
10:36
because it's your vertically integrated business
10:39
from the get-go. I mean you you manufacture
10:41
your own material and then you make your
10:43
own products and essentially what you're saying is
10:45
by showing how it can be used in
10:47
your products the hope is that other
10:50
brands will just buy stoked plastics.
10:52
You will continue to make sunglasses
10:54
and ski goggles but
10:56
really it's stoked it's the plastic material
10:58
that you'd like everyone
11:00
to use. Yeah that's the impact
11:03
that's the change that we want to
11:05
kind of motivate. When we
11:07
first came up with the IP you guys
11:09
no one wanted to touch us. I was
11:11
a former US government contractor we didn't really
11:13
have a foot in the door
11:15
in the outdoor industry so we're like look no
11:18
one's gonna buy it let's go
11:20
create our own product and see
11:22
how it resonates within the outdoor
11:24
space and beyond. Put
11:27
on my finance hat cost
11:31
of goods a pound of a
11:33
pound of your stoke plastic versus
11:36
your same use for same
11:39
sunglasses or whatever. Sure that's a great
11:41
question and one we get a lot so yeah
11:44
comparative to the our pet that you can
11:47
currently buy on the market ours
11:49
is about 10% more
11:51
than that but
11:54
because of our high recyclability grade
11:56
you know and economies of scale
11:58
we can hit ESG talk a
12:00
lot quicker for companies that are trying to
12:02
meet those targets. Yeah. Here's
12:05
an off the cuff idea. Thinking
12:08
about that idea. I'll get my pen and paper.
12:12
So I think in
12:14
food, organic is stoked
12:16
plastics. Like look, it's going
12:19
to be a hard time sometimes to convince the
12:21
CFO of company to buy. But if you could
12:23
build this to be like the
12:25
organic of plastic, then... That's where
12:28
you can justify the price point.
12:30
Yeah, you've got to justify the price
12:32
point. No, I like that spin on
12:34
just using organic because that
12:37
makes people feel good and they know they're
12:39
paying more money. Yeah, it's a certification. Oh,
12:41
yeah, of course. James,
12:46
just like curiosity, how have sales been so far?
12:48
Well, I'll just say this. So
12:51
we've got enough sales where funds
12:53
and investors are interested in us.
12:57
I can't make a livelihood off
12:59
of it. Not yet, yeah. Not
13:01
yet. But after four years of
13:03
spending a lot of money, and this kind of
13:05
goes into my question to Gary, on
13:07
educating the marketplace on the difference
13:09
between what we're putting in our
13:12
sunglasses and goggles and what others
13:14
are not. And
13:16
that is just, as you guys know,
13:18
it's just been this huge PR and
13:21
marketing effort that is time intensive and
13:23
expensive. So your question
13:25
was about breaking through, right? And
13:28
your question for Gary is, why should somebody
13:30
to Clif Bar versus a competitor snack, you
13:32
know, which you're trying to figure out
13:34
how do we get people to get educated on what
13:37
we're offering? Gary, where do you... Where would
13:39
you even start? No, boy. This
13:41
tough one has changed over the last 30
13:43
years. It's changed so much. I'll
13:47
start with our story. In 1992, it
13:51
was really only Power Bar, and
13:53
a few bars had come out during
13:55
that time, but they were kind of like they
13:58
took the Power Bar ingredients and they added... You
14:00
know a little more vanilla or they you know a
14:02
little more peanut butter or something. We
14:04
created a completely different product Okay, and
14:06
you're you're you're kind of
14:09
like that. You're kind of not like you're
14:11
you're there's so many sunglass companies I don't
14:14
have to tell you and There's
14:16
some beautiful designs out there and all these companies But
14:18
you know, what is the difference and we had this
14:20
radically did we had to educate people that it is
14:22
an energy bar It just tastes better And
14:25
so we sampled a lot which was that
14:28
was instant sale But you can't
14:30
get to everybody so we did some print ads and
14:32
we did a print ad called It's your body you
14:34
decide and it was
14:36
going directly after power bar And in five days
14:38
we had a lawsuit against things sued you guys,
14:40
but that lawsuit actually was a Blessing
14:43
in disguise right Gary because it got you
14:45
all this attention You
14:48
took the words out of my story. Yeah Sorry,
14:52
no, I'm glad you did because it's so
14:54
it's people don't realize that sometimes It
14:57
might be what you want and you know, so
14:59
I and I think people are afraid to attack competition
15:01
So, you know my question back to you would
15:03
be like do you pick the number
15:05
one? competitor that you can grab or
15:07
do you do them all together and You
15:12
know, do you go after them and
15:14
create a super aggressive Campaign
15:17
that gets you PR because back then
15:19
there was no PR as per
15:21
se but it was usually oh in
15:23
in a retail magazine I wrote a trade magazine,
15:25
you know cliff bar gets sued by a
15:27
power bar We're like, thank you and guys
15:29
right like then all these bike shops are like,
15:31
well, let's just try it I mean
15:34
gosh and they did we had
15:36
700 accounts in like months and
15:38
our goal sounds very aggressive,
15:40
but we're our goal is to put them out of business and
15:43
For the first 10 to 15 years
15:45
our people were like we are going
15:48
to just go after their market share
15:50
Everywhere we could and so that's
15:53
how you tell people you're different You've got
15:55
to show the difference between what everybody's doing
15:57
and you're not doing and that you can't
15:59
be better Nashville or shy about it. You got it. That's
16:02
my opinion. Yeah, you know, it's
16:04
kind of cool It's like you could have you
16:06
could basically take a competitor sunglasses and just show
16:08
a pile of plastic and say this
16:11
becomes this Yeah, right Here
16:16
took the design right out of my head our
16:18
heads we're looking for some marketing guy all
16:21
my 800 numbers and Gary
16:25
how important is Like
16:28
athlete influencer association
16:30
with with with brand voice brand identity
16:32
It was it was in our mix
16:35
always and we still have you know
16:37
World-class athletes with clip bar stickers on
16:39
their helmets and like ski racing You
16:42
know, you're you're in the skiing because
16:44
I saw your goggles, you know Bryce
16:47
Bennett who won a World Cup race this
16:49
year he gets in the start line You
16:51
see this big red sticker and then he
16:53
crosses the finish line and he wins and
16:55
he literally points to the clip bar Sticker
16:57
on his helmet like holy crap that is
16:59
worth so much It
17:02
doesn't get better than that and so I a hundred
17:04
percent without having to go on and
17:06
on about it Yes, we we've always
17:08
had athletes from day one Endorsing
17:11
our product and they're super legit They're not
17:13
just celebrities who you know look good and
17:16
you know, they they could choose anything with
17:18
these people used our product for
17:20
function and for quality and
17:22
for and believing in our story I
17:25
think that's a key point Gary is that There
17:28
will be some consumers who are attracted
17:30
to to the the story and the
17:32
recycled aspect of it
17:34
But I think most people are gonna want about
17:36
the function they're gonna want to know why this
17:38
is better And I think this that
17:40
having an athlete having
17:42
a you know I think like an Alex
17:45
Honnold or an outdoor person, you know somebody
17:47
or a Michaela Schiff and wearing the Guggs
17:49
ski goggles I'm not you know, they're probably
17:51
already But
17:53
but but you think about you think about the shoe
17:55
brand on right which were worth it I tell that
17:58
story in the show. I mean that Roger Federer supercharge
18:00
that brand because all of a
18:02
sudden Roger Federer is wearing ons and people are
18:04
like what is that Roger Federer they must be
18:06
amazing people need
18:09
to understand because the majority
18:11
people are gonna buy it because they look good
18:13
and they're functional not because they're recycled yeah
18:16
and I promise to do this I'm
18:18
gonna get some but I'm paying retail buddy
18:20
I'm going online and I think that's my
18:22
my gig I pay retail that's fine with
18:24
me that's fine with me
18:26
hey Gary Erickson wearing opolis it's that's
18:28
a big deal that's a huge a
18:30
lot of people are gonna be like
18:32
what is Gary wearing okay I just
18:34
resigned from the World Cup so I
18:36
don't think up there
18:38
with how I built this and Gary
18:40
Erickson wearing our eyewear that would be
18:43
cool James thank you so much for
18:45
calling in good luck we're gonna be following
18:47
your progress and and we'll catch
18:49
up with you maybe you'll be back on the show I
18:52
hope so you guys guy I've been listening to
18:54
you for four years you've got me through a
18:56
lot of ups and downs and Gary you've gotten
18:58
me through a lot of hikes snowboard
19:01
trips surf trips through your
19:03
bars I really appreciate the time and thoughts James
19:05
thanks a lot and I hope we get to
19:07
catch up more I'd like to you know catch
19:10
up one-on-one if we can someday just to check
19:12
it out I'd love that thank you guys all right
19:14
take care Gary
19:17
I mean this is a complex business but I
19:19
think the idea of producing the
19:21
material and turning into a
19:23
products is a kind of a cool idea it's
19:25
super innovative I mean he's gone from zero
19:28
to vertically integrating his business like
19:31
right away yeah there
19:34
there are a lot of ingredients
19:36
and materials out there that
19:39
are like what he's doing but they're more purely
19:41
functional like a better plastic or
19:43
a better kevlar
19:46
for example or carbon fiber
19:48
you know radically changed
19:50
the bike industry but there's
19:52
no patent on carbon fiber and
19:54
everybody's doing carbon fiber there's so
19:56
I think he's got the advantage if they
19:58
get the IP on that And it's
20:02
got to be functional, and it looks like it
20:04
is very functional. At
20:06
the same time, it's got that property that, you
20:08
know, it's where everything is moving towards more sustainable.
20:11
Yeah, totally. Gary,
20:13
we're going to take a quick
20:15
break, but when we come back,
20:17
a co-op of artisans competing with
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giants like Etsy, stay with
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us. I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the Advice Line
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24:46
Hey, welcome back to the advice line here
24:48
on how I built this lab. I'm Guy
24:50
Roz and I'm with Gary Erickson. Gary,
24:54
market share is obviously super
24:56
important, right? Especially in a crowded
24:58
space and as more and more
25:01
competitors started to get into the
25:03
energy bar space, how
25:05
were you able to fend off the competition and
25:07
stay ahead? Like what were some of
25:10
the strategies that worked? I
25:12
would argue that we were built through Graphspace marketing.
25:15
You know, we did some print ads
25:17
at the beginning, which did put
25:19
us on the map. But Kit
25:22
and I would fly all over the country and
25:25
be cutting up bars and thousands of
25:27
pieces of bars just at these marathons.
25:29
It was so hard. And
25:32
then we started hiring people to do that for us.
25:34
We had a team of 25 people around the country
25:36
and then they had local people that they would hire
25:38
for the weekend events. And I
25:40
really think that's what put us on the map. But our
25:42
product was inexpensive enough where
25:44
we could actually give out whole bars and
25:46
they could experience that. And then the next thing you know, they're buying 12,
25:49
24 and hundreds. We
25:52
built a lot of loyal, I mean, we
25:54
have such loyalty with a
25:56
small group of people that buy the majority of
25:58
our product. Okay,
26:01
Listen on a call and. We. Like know what
26:03
he say no one I guess salary
26:06
is on the line. Hello! Valerie
26:08
Hello hello welcome to the show
26:10
On Please introduce yourself Toaster for
26:12
your first last name. What the
26:14
name, your businesses and where you
26:16
live. My. Name is Valerie
26:18
Thankless and I'm representing artisans
26:20
cooperatives and I'm calling from
26:22
the beautiful North Oregon coast.
26:24
Nice. Oh it's is a beautiful place
26:27
a case of and butcher person. So.
26:29
We have almost no funds that
26:31
strong bottom up community ownership. How
26:33
do we break into a market
26:35
space that is filled with giants
26:37
like at sea. And Amazon moved to
26:39
the Giants. Okay we've we've would certainly
26:42
told this he story on the show.
26:44
First of all tell us a little
26:46
bit about about your business about Artisans
26:48
Cooperative. What is it would you do.
26:51
Yeah. Artisans Cooperatives is a co
26:53
op alternative. The At see. What?
26:55
We're growing an online handmade
26:58
marketplace for crafters, makers, and
27:00
artists. Owned. And managed by the
27:02
people who love it. As a cooperate
27:04
of Leon business for I'm looking at the
27:06
website now and so a First of all,
27:08
What? What's the problem with Etsy? Why did
27:11
you Because it seems like you aren't really
27:13
is is competing with Se. But. What
27:15
What prompted you to to start
27:18
this? Well. I.
27:20
It's easier for me to answer
27:22
in some ways from a personal
27:24
point of view because I'm one
27:26
half of the leather crafting business,
27:28
a small husband and wife leather
27:30
grafting business that we started on
27:32
Etsy in two thousand and Nine.
27:34
So we'd no se very well
27:36
and we're still on Etsy and
27:38
they are a great option to
27:40
has in your portfolio as a
27:42
small artist or maker. And but
27:44
over the years they've changed a
27:46
lot. You know, starting in I
27:48
think Twenty Twelve. But. he started
27:51
growing much bigger twenty sustained the
27:53
went to and i pl and
27:55
sellers started becoming i would say
27:57
the product as much as he
27:59
often the way that Etsy is making
28:01
revenue. So this all really
28:03
got started when they increased their fees
28:05
a second time by 30% in 2022.
28:08
And they announced that fee increase in
28:10
the same week that they announced
28:14
record profits. And that
28:16
was just something that struck a lot of
28:19
small makers and artists who rely on this
28:21
income kind of struck a nerve. And
28:25
so it kind of spontaneously organized
28:27
into a protest online through media,
28:29
which I got involved,
28:32
it was called the Etsy strike. And
28:34
thousands of shops took their
28:36
listings off of the site for a week
28:38
and protest. And it actually
28:41
caught some pretty good mainstream attention, but
28:43
didn't change the fact that the fees
28:45
were going up again. It's at the
28:47
point where a sales commission might vary
28:49
anywhere from 10% to
28:51
40% per sale. And you won't
28:53
really know what that is until the sale happens. And
28:57
how do you how do you differ from
28:59
Etsy? Like you're charged presumably you're charging much
29:01
lower fees to your sellers? Not
29:04
necessarily. No, the
29:06
big difference is that we're owned
29:08
and operated or owned by the
29:10
members themselves. So a cooperative is
29:13
a member owned business that's organized
29:15
on a principle of one member one vote.
29:19
So we have a multi
29:21
stakeholder cooperative, which means that the
29:23
artisans themselves can be owners of
29:25
the business and the shoppers or
29:27
any general supporter can become an owner
29:30
of the business, which means they get
29:32
governance rights, they get a vote, and they get
29:34
to have a say in how things are run. And
29:36
they get financial rights so that when we have
29:38
profits, the dividends are just so good to cut among
29:41
the people. Yeah. How many artisans do
29:43
you now have involved? We
29:45
have a little over 300 members now.
29:47
Yeah. And we have about I
29:49
think 200 shops on our marketplace. Okay,
29:53
so Valerie, you brought
29:55
us this question about you've got say
29:57
almost no funds to but you've got a strong
30:00
bottom-up community, how
30:02
do you break into a marketplace
30:04
kind of dominated by Amazon,
30:07
Etsy, eBay, and other massive
30:09
retailers? Gary, you want to take
30:11
the first crack at this one? Oh
30:13
man, this is a tough one. Well, you've got
30:16
a real targeted competitor. You would
30:18
call Etsy a competitor, is that correct? Yes,
30:21
although we're not necessarily trying to replace Etsy.
30:23
If we could get the 1% of artisans
30:26
who are looking for
30:28
alternatives and the consumers who
30:30
are looking for ethical options,
30:33
I think that's a great starting
30:35
place. So the
30:37
answer is yes, you're a competitor. You
30:40
just don't want to say it. So
30:43
yeah, we used to say that at the beginning when
30:45
we at Clifffire, like if we could just get 10%
30:47
of their business or
30:50
20% of their business, I'll be set for
30:52
life, and that would be like, we'd be
30:54
revenue of a million dollars and
30:57
little did we know that we far surpassed
30:59
that. So yeah, you could target that. Don't be
31:02
shy about that. Is
31:05
there a place where you would feel
31:07
like if we got here, then we've
31:10
got momentum and we're able
31:12
to sustain our business for the long
31:14
haul? Like how far are you from
31:16
there right now? That's a great
31:19
question. I think that's one
31:21
of the special challenges we have in trying to build
31:23
a marketplace is that we're in a bit of a
31:25
chicken or an egg situation. We need enough
31:28
artisans to provide good consumer choice for the
31:30
shoppers who are coming on so they have
31:33
things to sort through and define what they're
31:35
looking for, but we need enough customers to
31:37
make it worthwhile for artisans to want to
31:39
sign up. And so I hope that we're
31:42
growing both in step with each other in
31:44
a balanced way. We're
31:47
not there yet. We just started. We
31:49
launched our beta marketplace with existing tech
31:52
in October of this year,
31:54
so six months ago. And I
31:56
would say we're probably, you know,
31:59
at least... half
32:01
of where I'd want to be. So we'd
32:04
start feeling like we were getting there. And
32:07
I think about, you know, it's really interesting because
32:09
we've done a whole series on the show recently
32:11
about content creators and the business
32:13
of content creation. And you know, ten years
32:15
ago was in order to
32:18
reach mass scale in media, you had to
32:20
be on CNN or, you know, be at
32:22
a major media organization today. You could be
32:24
some dude with a YouTube channel and reach
32:26
50 million subscribers, right? And so what's interesting
32:28
about how social media platforms work now is
32:31
that they want to attract
32:33
all these creators, right? So for
32:35
a long time it was YouTube where they were
32:37
trying to get onto because YouTube paid the most. And
32:40
then they went to TikTok. And now a
32:42
lot of people are migrating to Snapchat. Now
32:44
they all use all of them, but these
32:46
different platforms offer different incentives. And now it's
32:49
getting me to my question for you, which
32:51
is, is there a world where
32:53
you could offer an incentive that
32:55
is so good, you know,
32:57
like no fees for the first
32:59
year or something
33:02
radical where that kind
33:04
of message spreads among crafters?
33:06
Because there are craft fairs
33:09
all over the country. Crafters
33:11
talk to each other. You guys have a Discord channel, I
33:14
see. Is there some kind
33:16
of incentive that you are
33:18
able to offer to bring this critical
33:21
mass in? That's a
33:23
really good question. I absolutely
33:26
think that we could come up with
33:28
such an offer if we
33:30
could find the right audience and the right
33:32
moment to share it. But
33:34
I do think one of the things we've had a
33:36
challenge with being on a platform is that we don't
33:38
have a lot of ways to connect with other artisans
33:41
other than at like craft fairs and things like that
33:43
because places like Etsy control
33:46
the narrative and control their forums. Yeah,
33:48
but you... Right, that's right.
33:50
And for you to control the narrative, you've got
33:52
to give your members the tools
33:54
and make it easy for them, right? I mean,
33:56
you've got 300 members. Each
33:59
of those members... members is on social media.
34:01
I mean, they may not have hundreds
34:03
of thousands of followers, but they might
34:05
have hundreds or thousands on
34:08
their social media. And I wonder
34:10
whether you can leverage
34:12
your community in a better way
34:14
to have them promote what you're doing. I
34:17
think our members are not only committed, they're
34:20
literally invested. They're co-op
34:22
member owners. They've invested in this company
34:24
and we're all equal owners
34:26
of it together. It
34:28
brings up an interesting point that I hadn't
34:30
fully thought through, which is that artisans have
34:34
people who are just starting their careers, people
34:36
who are doing it just for fun, and
34:38
then people like me and
34:40
my partner who do this full-time for
34:42
a living. Everybody comes
34:44
with a different set of
34:47
skills and a different background.
34:49
Using everybody's strengths where they are
34:51
makes a lot of sense. Valerie,
34:55
once people come onto your site for
34:58
the first time and maybe they buy something, do
35:01
you got them? Do
35:03
they come back? They're like, wow,
35:05
I never thought this existed. This
35:07
is really different. I think
35:09
we've had repeat customers
35:13
already. In our six months of operating,
35:16
I think one of the ways that
35:18
we try to encourage that is through
35:20
email campaigns and trying to make people
35:22
aware of the variety of things on
35:24
our platform, everything from wooden coasters
35:26
to hand-woven silk shawls. There
35:29
is such a wide variety
35:31
of products and that's the
35:33
treasure hunt of it. One
35:38
of the things that I've noticed, I'm
35:40
going to give you some feedback on
35:42
this. I know the site's early. It's
35:44
still in beta form, but there's too
35:46
much stuff. There's join the member for
35:48
Artisans Handmade. There's all these drop-down things.
35:51
What I think Etsy does well and what
35:53
I think you could do really well is
35:55
they just have pictures of different categories. You
35:57
have some of that, but Gary, I know
35:59
Gary, is a cyclist? And
36:01
is there a world where you've got like people
36:04
who love cycling or you know, you've
36:06
got clothing and accessories, arts and crafts, but
36:08
could you break that down even further like
36:11
beanies or games
36:13
instead of like personal care and
36:15
leisure like domino lovers? I
36:17
mean, you don't have to get like
36:20
super, super like micro niche, but you
36:22
could get kind of niche. And you
36:25
know, I understand you guys don't have
36:27
massive budgets, but you're working with artists.
36:29
I mean, I know you give a
36:31
lot of time in your group to really
36:33
kind of think a bit more
36:36
intentionally about the design of the website to make
36:38
it a little to make it pop a little
36:40
bit more. You know what I mean, Gary? I
36:43
like that a lot. And I like also that
36:45
you're, you're trying
36:47
to move toward something that
36:49
Etsy isn't doing on their website
36:51
or with their product line or
36:53
whatever is available. I mean,
36:56
you know, there, okay, you could go to
36:58
if you want to differentiate, you know, it
37:00
could be your headline, you know, you may
37:02
not find this on Etsy. Yeah,
37:05
you may not you want me, you may not want to
37:07
say you won't find this because maybe you
37:09
will. But you could say you may not find this
37:11
on Etsy that would give them like, well, there maybe
37:13
there's other stuff on here, I won't find an Etsy.
37:16
And because you've got to create that
37:18
you can't be an Etsy with better
37:21
values. Yeah, you got to be
37:23
at sea with a different product. I'm
37:25
telling you, I agree. I'm just spitballing here. But
37:27
maybe think of a different way of categorizing what
37:30
you offer. And you focus
37:32
on the things that people love, or might,
37:34
you know, be attracted to. So here's a
37:36
question that follows that, I
37:38
hope perfectly is,
37:40
how many people come to this and
37:43
buy a gift versus buying
37:45
something for themselves? That's
37:48
a great question. I would say, so
37:51
far, more purchases have
37:54
been personal. And yet that
37:56
contradicts my own experience with my own
37:58
business that we need. you make these
38:00
niche things that are perfect for that one
38:02
person, you know, more a
38:05
higher percentage of them is gifts. I
38:07
also know that Etsy is pushing gifts
38:09
hard right now. Okay, that's that was
38:11
their Super Bowl Ed. Is
38:13
that right? Yes. But
38:16
Gary, your gifts is the way to
38:19
go. It's the way I mean, if you put away, you
38:21
might find something for yourself to you know, like you're going
38:23
for like, I go to wherever wherever
38:25
and buy a gift for my family
38:27
or my wife or something. And then I ended
38:29
up like, this looks I think I want to
38:31
get this for myself. Yeah, I mean, there's
38:34
a lady here who's making knit
38:36
beanies with like an octopus on
38:38
it. I'm seeing that I'm seeing the
38:41
chicken and the lemon. I mean, there's
38:43
like, octopus. There's lots of people have
38:45
octopuses or for example, I'm on
38:47
the same base, the yellow one, right?
38:49
Yeah, yeah. I'm looking for gifts. I'm
38:51
looking for a gift for somebody. And
38:54
I don't even know where to begin.
38:56
You could have a revolving top gifts.
38:59
Top sold gifts. Yeah. And if you just had
39:01
like a headline of like, first thing
39:03
is top 50 gifts. And because if I'm looking
39:06
for a gift, I wouldn't know where to start
39:08
here. Yeah. And I would like to be
39:10
led to something and I
39:12
might come back here and be buying gifts
39:14
all the time. Yeah, because I'm always searching
39:16
for a gift for my friends and family.
39:18
Valerie, I think there's I think I think we're
39:20
on to something. I think we might
39:23
be on to something. You have
39:25
given me so many great ideas and feedback
39:27
and direction. And I absolutely
39:29
love Gary's point to that
39:31
gifts are a great add on and a great
39:33
way to increase our per order amount. Not
39:36
look for yourself and also think about other
39:39
gifts to add on, you know, and and
39:41
back to the back to trying to get
39:43
that message out is wherever
39:45
you get if you could just say a gift
39:47
you may not find on Etsy. Yeah.
39:50
Yeah. Try that. Try that.
39:52
And you know, it's not going out of business. There'll be
39:54
fine. And we love it. Don't worry, by the way, I
39:57
have a show big fans to So
40:00
no, no, no shade as a
40:02
Salary Franklin Artisans Cooperative. Thanks for
40:04
calling and good luck will be
40:07
watching. Awesome! I was delighted to
40:09
be here. Thank you! So. Much while the best
40:11
story. Great job! Gary.
40:14
I'm gets You are. A. Chicken
40:16
Head. A The thing which one
40:18
are know that are the lemon to
40:20
the lemon on the size and knit
40:22
hat. I think that I think you
40:24
live with it or cycling through through
40:26
Italy on your racing bike. With that
40:28
we have to put it over the
40:30
helmets. I can get it over the
40:32
home for over the helmet. Yes are
40:34
A were good. Another quick break. Gary
40:36
only come back and inventors Fluffy.craigs idea.
40:38
Stay with us and Guy Rise and
40:40
you're listening to the vice line here
40:42
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Smart Energy. Stay focused. Hello
42:56
and welcome back to the Advice Line here
42:59
on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy
43:01
Roz. Gary, what do you say? Should we
43:03
go ahead and bring in our last caller?
43:05
Let's go. All right. Hello,
43:08
Elsie. Are you there?
43:10
Can you hear me? Yes, we can.
43:12
Hello, Elsie. Hi. Please
43:14
tell us your name, what your company's called,
43:16
their business, and where you live. Hi,
43:19
Guy. Hi, Gary. Hi,
43:21
Elsie. I'm in
43:24
Denver, Colorado, and
43:27
I started my company in Lily Brush
43:29
14 years ago after I invented
43:33
a pet hair clean-up tool
43:35
that's faster than... I
43:38
started my company in Lily
43:40
Brush 14 years ago after
43:43
I invented a pet hair clean-up
43:45
tool that's faster
43:47
than vacuuming and
43:49
better than sticky rollers
43:52
without creating single-use waste.
43:55
I've since invented four more
43:57
pet hair clean-up products. And
44:00
now we have this incredible
44:02
core group of pet parents
44:04
and professional cleaners who love
44:06
our products. But I'm
44:09
still struggling with
44:11
how to scale up our marketing
44:14
so more people can find us.
44:18
Right. Okay. So before we... So
44:20
you're looking to figure out how to scale
44:22
up to get more people to find you, how
44:24
to do it efficiently. Before
44:27
we get there, let me ask you a couple questions. So a daily brush is...
44:29
So this is a pet hair
44:32
remover for furniture
44:35
and whatever pet hair. I have a beloved pet. I've
44:37
got two cats and a dog. So this is a
44:39
big problem in my house. I have a lot of
44:41
pet hair. I have a
44:43
one cat that is particularly bushy hair. Morty,
44:47
he's a great cat, but he sheds everywhere.
44:52
How is it different than, I don't
44:54
know, roller or other pet brush
44:56
removers? Oh,
44:59
let me count the way. Please tell
45:01
us. Yes. Count them
45:03
out loud. Okay, I will. So
45:06
if you have pets that
45:08
have that very heavy undercoat,
45:11
that soft fluffy stuff that
45:13
sheds all year long, we
45:16
make these fantastic bristled
45:19
products that you
45:22
just brush back and forth across
45:24
the hair. It picks it all
45:26
up. There's
45:28
no sticky roller waste. There's
45:32
no peeling. And it's
45:34
faster than vacuuming. And you just pull the hair
45:36
out and you just toss it in the... It
45:40
stays right on top of the
45:42
bristles. And you just... I
45:44
like to tell people, take the hair
45:46
outside because birds like to use it
45:49
for nests. Wow, that's cool.
45:51
It's like you're recycling like our... like
45:53
gems and plastics. You can go and
45:55
nest for a bird and then your
45:57
cat can go and eat the bird.
46:00
Oh dear. No. How
46:03
did you... Tell me how you started this business
46:05
because I see you started in 2010. What
46:08
were you... I mean, did you
46:10
have a different job? Or are you doing something different in your life
46:12
at that point? I was. It's
46:16
kind of one of those
46:18
crazy stories. Yeah. But I used
46:20
to be a painter. I
46:22
was a portrait and still life artist.
46:26
And in 2009,
46:28
I was a
46:32
single mom and I shoveled
46:34
a driveway full of snow.
46:38
And it caused my widow
46:40
maker artery to dissect
46:45
at the family dinner table. So...
46:48
Wow. After
46:50
I was very
46:52
lucky to wake up the next
46:55
morning. But I
46:58
went to reach for a
47:00
water glass and
47:02
my hands were shaking.
47:05
They were like nervous
47:07
parakeets. I'm sure you can hear
47:09
it in my voice. I have
47:11
now a pretty
47:14
prominent tremor. And
47:16
so I knew
47:19
that morning
47:22
that my painting career
47:24
was over. Wow.
47:26
So, you know,
47:28
I've never looked back.
47:30
I just knew I had to
47:32
find a new career. I
47:35
mean, it's an amazing story because you
47:37
have this, of course, near-death
47:39
experience with the heart attack and
47:42
it completely changes your trajectory. I mean,
47:44
you're a painter. You need still hands,
47:46
but you develop a
47:48
tremor and you have to pivot.
47:51
But it's like it's so... I
47:53
mean, it's one of those weird things.
47:55
It's like that happened and
47:58
that as a result of that. you
48:00
started this thing, right?
48:03
Like this, none of this would have
48:05
happened without that horrible tragedy, but it's
48:07
an amazing kind of turn of
48:09
events. I
48:11
just, that's how
48:13
my life has always been. I've had
48:15
a lot of faith and just followed
48:20
lead. If something happens, you
48:22
just keep going through it.
48:26
I love your website. It's really clear.
48:28
It pops. I like the logo, Lily
48:30
brush, the red, it pops. How did
48:32
you invent this thing? So
48:36
I had to go to rehab for
48:39
my heart and I always
48:41
wear this polar fleece jacket.
48:44
And this little dog, Lily, used
48:46
to enjoy sitting on the couch
48:48
with me. She's an Australian
48:50
Shepherd. She's a very
48:52
fluffy dog. So I'd go to
48:54
rehab with all the other 80 year
48:57
olds. And I was only
48:59
48 when it happened. So
49:02
I'd go and I'd be covered
49:04
in pet hair and it
49:06
was embarrassing. But I looked
49:09
to see if there
49:13
was anything that would take care of
49:15
the pet hair and all they had
49:18
was sticky roller. And I
49:21
hate single
49:23
use products. So,
49:26
but I wasn't allowed to lift
49:28
it back. And so I took the
49:31
sticky roller home and
49:33
I would carry it with me and
49:35
rolled my fleece. And I
49:37
just thought there's got to be a better
49:40
way. And then one day I
49:42
was scrubbing
49:44
around the fixtures in
49:46
my kitchen and Lily
49:49
happened to jump onto the couch in
49:51
front of me and she had muddy
49:53
paws. So I went over with a
49:56
toothbrush and I
49:58
went to wipe the mud off
50:00
of that, off of
50:03
the couch. And I
50:05
noticed that her hair stuck to
50:07
the bristles. And I
50:09
was like, oh, I just
50:11
it was like, oh, so
50:13
I ran upstairs. I
50:15
have two sons. I
50:18
took both their toothbrushes, cut the
50:20
heads off of them. And
50:22
I found this little palm
50:24
sized block of wood in the
50:26
garage. And I super glued these
50:28
three toothbrush heads onto
50:30
mine as well. And
50:35
my kids came home and they found
50:37
me cleaning the whole house with this
50:40
little block of wood with toothbrush heads
50:42
on it. And I'm sure
50:44
they thought I had a stroke. So Elsie, a
50:46
guy has a question. I know this is in
50:48
your head right now, guy. Did
50:50
you keep that prototype? Of
50:53
course. That you've got a that's a
50:55
that's a Smithsonian
50:57
Museum piece. That
51:00
is so awesome.
51:02
Yeah. So Elsie
51:04
obviously is coming with question of how,
51:08
how can she scale this? How can she get the word
51:10
out? How can she grow this thing? She's been doing it
51:12
for since 2010. Yeah.
51:14
Gary, what's your take? I
51:19
need I've got a lot. This is I
51:21
mean, I just got it. I'm so inspired by the story.
51:23
All of it. So
51:26
it's awareness and trial. Now,
51:29
how do you do trial? Question
51:33
do you are you in like Petco or
51:35
any of the you know, pet mart or
51:38
any of those retailers? So
51:40
we're in this.
51:42
I'm very proud of this. We're
51:44
in a container store. That
51:47
was our first big company.
51:49
And it took me a
51:51
long time to get there. We
51:54
are we kill it on
51:56
Amazon, even though after
51:59
like the first year, Alibaba
52:03
just started pumping out
52:06
copies, but cheap copies of
52:08
our products. And
52:11
the thing I hate about the
52:14
products that these guys are
52:16
making that are copying ours is
52:19
that they only last
52:21
for a week or two. I
52:24
built our products to last for
52:27
really a lifetime
52:29
of your pet. I
52:31
mean that's the competitive advantage. Gary makes
52:33
me think of an episode
52:36
we did on TRX Straps with Randy
52:38
Hetrick several years ago because that
52:40
happened right away. All of a sudden,
52:42
all these copycats and they were poor
52:45
quality, but he spent
52:47
and still spends a lot of money suing them.
52:50
And I know you don't have those kinds
52:52
of resources and time, and it's a pain.
52:55
But I feel like a simple fix
52:57
is to emphasize what you
52:59
just said, the original and best, because
53:05
I feel like that is the brand is your
53:08
advantage here. It's
53:14
a tough one, Guy, because
53:17
when I first started talking
53:20
to buyers, they used to kind
53:22
of laugh at me because they
53:24
were like, why would you
53:26
make something that lasts for years and
53:29
years? We don't
53:31
want that. We want the repurchase.
53:33
But the fact that these
53:35
things last so long has
53:37
been kind of one of
53:39
our problems. I wonder whether I think
53:43
about partnerships, right? And
53:47
increasingly, you're seeing collaborations with brands
53:49
and certainly in apparel. Adidas and
53:51
Gucci or Liquid Death does, that's
53:53
not apparel, but they're doing partnerships
53:56
with different kinds of brands like
53:58
Grooming, Men's Grooming, for example. I
54:00
wonder if there's a way for
54:02
you to partner with a
54:06
product that is associated with
54:08
cleaning cars or carpets, something
54:12
like that where they get
54:14
it with that product. I
54:19
think about that too. Like
54:22
a different vacuum, like
54:24
a Bissell or something
54:26
like that. Such
54:30
a great point, guys. Yeah, especially
54:32
a product like Bissell or a
54:34
brand like that that's probably a little
54:36
easier to get to the right person
54:38
there. It's not an Adidas where there's a
54:40
bazillion people pitching them. I don't think a
54:42
lot of people are pitching Bissell for collaboration.
54:44
It could be kind of cool.
54:49
This to me seems like, you know how
54:51
Slim Jim is at the
54:53
checkout counter of every convenience store?
54:56
Like that's basically how
54:59
Slim Jim and now 5-hour Energy is there
55:01
too. I see this as a
55:03
product that's at the checkout of every car wash.
55:07
That would be ideal. I
55:10
do go to the car wash trade
55:13
show. The
55:16
first year I went, I
55:18
thought I'd made a terrible
55:20
mistake because I had
55:22
this little 10-foot booth. I'm
55:25
in this hall with all
55:27
these spinning brushes, bright
55:29
lights. I sort
55:31
of timidly went and started
55:33
doing demos. The
55:35
next thing I knew, my
55:38
booth was three people deep,
55:40
just mobbed for
55:42
three days. When
55:46
Gary talks about
55:50
going and giving away
55:52
product at bike
55:55
events, that resonates
55:57
with me.
56:00
Because I knew I'd
56:02
hit something, but we're
56:06
still just a little tiny
56:08
brand. We're still, you know,
56:10
they talk on Shark Tank,
56:12
they talk about the cockroach
56:14
that people can stomp
56:17
on. We're still that
56:20
little guy. And
56:22
it makes me nervous. It's
56:25
14 years and, you know,
56:27
we're trying so
56:29
hard and we're
56:31
still that little guy. First
56:35
off, don't give up. Okay. I'm an
56:37
effort. Because I think you've got, you
56:39
have something here. I wouldn't even, I'm
56:43
embarrassed that I didn't know your brand before
56:45
this because we've had, you've,
56:47
I've got these sort of sayings about innovation.
56:50
You've solved a problem, Cliff Bart to me
56:52
solved a problem with a better taste
56:54
and energy bar and,
56:56
you know, you're in, it's inventive. It's
56:59
totally original. I mean, how can
57:01
you get more original than using toothbrushes to
57:03
make the first product? And
57:05
it's, it's transformative. You
57:07
know, you're, it's for people that
57:09
have this issue. We, everybody
57:12
that has a dog and a cat pretty
57:14
much has this issue and we all
57:16
want to solve it, but we just are lazy and
57:18
we just, you know, and it's hard and you try
57:20
to vacuum, vacuum doesn't work. And the roly thing doesn't
57:22
work. So there's that. I feel
57:24
like it's a matter of
57:26
time in some ways. This is the kind
57:29
of product that if you could get it
57:31
into the hands of a
57:33
couple of the celebrities who just
57:36
have, you know, who post with their pet all
57:38
the time. Like I think, I don't know if
57:40
Chrissy Teigen has pets, but I just think of
57:42
something like that, you know, like Chrissy Teigen, who's
57:44
like associated with like cooking and a
57:46
beautiful house and like, you just imagine her like,
57:49
Oh my God, this, like, you know, here I
57:51
am brushing this
57:53
off with this thing. I think to get
57:55
to some of those really high end ones,
57:57
you've got to incentivize them. got
58:00
to say something like, look, we're
58:02
trying to scale this and,
58:04
you know, we'd love to partner with you in some
58:06
way. I don't know what that would look like. But to
58:09
me, it's just a matter of like getting it into
58:12
getting it to a place where somebody
58:14
like that, who's a real
58:16
like lifestyle influencer, gets
58:19
people excited about it. Because as Gary
58:21
said, it's a great product. It's just
58:23
a matter of getting it getting
58:26
in front of the right eyeballs. Question,
58:28
how many people are with you in your company?
58:33
There are four of us. Four
58:36
people is pretty lean. Yeah.
58:41
So I love guys idea of
58:43
the retail thing, like at the counter. I
58:46
mean, we've all bought stuff that when we're in
58:48
a store like I never I mean, what's
58:50
that? Oh, okay, I'll buy that. And
58:52
you may have to bring on a sales person that
58:55
you've never thought of needing before
58:57
that can go to the car
59:00
washes and the Walgreens and
59:02
the you know, and Fridays, whatever. Yeah.
59:05
You know, we bootstrapped it.
59:07
So it's been slow growth. Yeah.
59:10
So we've got money in the
59:12
bank. That's awesome. So
59:15
I just, I just have
59:17
to figure out who
59:20
to hire. I'm really into
59:22
giving people a shot. You
59:25
know, show me what you
59:27
got. And, and do your
59:29
best. And let's see. So I get,
59:31
you know, marketing people from
59:34
University of Denver. And
59:37
it was cool, you
59:39
know, two or three years watching
59:41
someone develop. I
59:43
think it's time that we go
59:46
and we find someone who really knows
59:48
what the heck they're doing.
59:51
And we do, we
59:53
do have money to do
59:55
that. I just honestly,
59:58
I I've done this
1:00:00
whole thing. I've flown by the seat of
1:00:03
my pants this whole time.
1:00:05
It's super impressive. And
1:00:08
for the record, I think if
1:00:10
you can do it self-funded, then
1:00:13
you control your destiny. Kit
1:00:15
and I never took a dime
1:00:18
from anybody over our 30 years of
1:00:20
running Cookbar. We never brought on an
1:00:22
equity partner. Yeah. Elsie,
1:00:25
we're gonna be following you and Lily
1:00:28
Brush. And good luck.
1:00:30
Thank you for calling in. I think you've
1:00:33
got something there. And I think in about
1:00:36
six months time from now, if we check in on you
1:00:38
again, you will have hired somebody to
1:00:40
take the load off and hopefully to start
1:00:42
to really do some of that business
1:00:45
expansion that you're not able to do because of the
1:00:47
other stuff you have to focus on. I
1:00:50
hope so. And
1:00:52
Guy and Gary, thank you so
1:00:54
much. I just, you
1:00:56
guys are my heroes.
1:01:00
I'll take it. Well, you're so welcome.
1:01:02
So cool. And thank you. And we're
1:01:04
just starting to roll. So just keep
1:01:06
this momentum going with other people and
1:01:08
keep this conversation going with other people
1:01:11
that can support what we've talked about and
1:01:14
help you take it up a notch or two or
1:01:17
more. Thank you, Elsie. Thanks,
1:01:19
Elsie. All right. Great
1:01:22
job. So I'm ordering one tonight. You're gonna be
1:01:24
saddled with all these products after today, Gary.
1:01:26
I'm solving all kinds of problems today. I'm
1:01:28
gonna get new sunglasses, goggles. What's
1:01:31
all these packages coming to our house? I know.
1:01:34
We're getting ski goggles and I got
1:01:36
a brush and now I've got all
1:01:38
this like these craps. What's going on?
1:01:40
Well, you know, I have, like
1:01:43
all of our friends have animals. I'm probably gonna
1:01:45
order a dozen of these and then pass them
1:01:47
around and then tell them to, see, that's the
1:01:49
other way to do it. You know, this is
1:01:51
a word of mouth product. It's a word of mouth
1:01:53
product. And you could have a brush in
1:01:56
every vehicle you've got, in
1:01:59
every... You know, room you've got,
1:02:01
they're just sitting there because then you don't
1:02:03
have to go, where's that brush? They're
1:02:06
everywhere. Okay, all right. Gary,
1:02:08
thank you so much for coming back on the show.
1:02:10
It's awesome to have you. I'm honored, thank you so
1:02:12
much. Guys, if you have not
1:02:15
heard his story, go back, way back in our
1:02:17
podcast queue, back to like 2016, early 2017, look
1:02:20
for Gary Erickson Cliff Bar. It's
1:02:22
an amazing story. I
1:02:24
still reference it all the time when I talk to people and
1:02:27
give them advice, so check it out. Thank
1:02:29
you everybody for listening to the show this week.
1:02:31
If you are working on a business and you
1:02:33
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1:03:02
episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music composed
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by Ramtine Arablui. It
1:03:06
was edited by John Isabella and our audio engineer
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1:04:40
no matter how complex they
1:04:42
may be. Real wealth requires
1:04:45
real solutions. For more information,
1:04:47
connect with a wealth advisor
1:04:49
today at corrient.com. That's
1:04:52
C-O-R-I-E-N-T.
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