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art of simplified finances. Hello

3:03

and welcome to the Advice Line on

3:05

how I built this lab. I'm Guy

3:07

Roz. This is the place where we

3:09

help try to solve your business challenges.

3:12

Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder,

3:14

a former guest on the show who will

3:16

attempt with me to help

3:18

you. And if you're building something

3:20

and you need advice, give us a call and

3:22

you just might be the next guest on the

3:24

show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a

3:26

one minute message that tells us about

3:32

your business and the issues or questions

3:34

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3:36

can also send us a voice

3:38

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3:41

make sure to tell us how

3:43

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3:45

don't forget to sign up for my

3:47

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3:49

from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can

3:52

sign up for free at guyroz.com. And

3:54

we'll put all this info in the

3:56

podcast description. And

4:00

Vice Buddy is the legendary

4:03

Tom Rinks. Tom is the mastermind creative

4:05

behind some of the most innovative products

4:07

of the past 25 years, including

4:10

the Taco Bell Chihuahua, Daily on Tequila,

4:12

and of course, Sunbum Skin

4:14

Products. Tom, my friend, welcome to

4:17

the show. Thanks, Guy. Great

4:19

to be here. Love you. Tom, you were of

4:21

course last on how I built this, telling us

4:23

your incredible life story. And for those of you

4:26

who haven't heard it, we will put a link

4:28

to it in the show notes. But basically, it's

4:30

a story of how you built Sunbum into an

4:33

iconic sunscreen and skincare brand.

4:36

And Tom, I have told your story so many

4:38

times to friends and colleagues, you know, how you

4:40

spent more than a year looking

4:42

for inspiration. Everything from Mondrian

4:45

paintings to Eames chairs to

4:47

Japanese streetwear to wooden surfboards.

4:50

And how all of that and the

4:52

story of that really came together in

4:54

designing the Sunbum brand. Tom,

4:57

I suspect that branding and design is going to

4:59

come up in our calls today. But let me

5:01

just start by asking you a general question about

5:03

branding. In

5:06

your view, right, why does brand and

5:08

design matter when you're putting out a

5:10

product? Why is it that important? It

5:13

matters because everybody buys on feeling, Guy,

5:16

like everybody. So if you don't give

5:18

them the right feeling that they want,

5:20

whether that be in your packaging, in

5:23

your advertising, wherever,

5:25

if you don't give them the

5:27

feeling that they're looking for, they're not going to

5:29

buy. And it doesn't mean it has to be

5:31

a cool brand, like a, you know, cool surfer

5:33

brand. Because cool is different to

5:35

everybody. It could be I want

5:37

to feel rich. So I need to buy

5:39

Louis Vuitton or Prada because I think that's

5:41

cool. I might want to feel, you

5:44

know, like I'm an outdoorsman.

5:47

If I was an outdoorsman, I want

5:49

to buy Patagonia and I want to

5:51

drive a Subaru or whatever that is.

5:53

And so you got to give me

5:55

that feeling to know that it's going

5:57

to deliver what I Want. To

6:00

deliver. And it may just be wanting to

6:02

deliver a message that you know it's Smart

6:04

brand. It's gonna actually clean my. The.

6:06

Clock in my dreams. Yeah so

6:09

ten times more unclogging strains is

6:11

what I need to feel any

6:13

to know this can work as

6:15

I got a problem and as

6:17

gonna fix it. so the brand

6:19

is what gives you the ceiling.

6:21

To. Accomplish. What?

6:24

You. Need to get done which

6:26

is why you're purchasing the product.

6:28

Yeah Tom ah should take some

6:30

calls were we to get limited

6:32

effort. Color researchers are gets collar

6:34

first color Are you in line.

6:37

I am on the line. Here I

6:39

am. I'm here. hello, hi or Wendy

6:41

I think it's Wendy and tell us

6:43

your name, where you're calling from and

6:46

that which businesses. Thank. You

6:48

Die and Tom's hello and nice

6:50

to meet you. My name is

6:52

Wendy Queso and I'm from a

6:54

little old town in South Carolina.

6:56

caught Bluffton and I had a business

6:58

card well as low country singer

7:00

said. Okay, tell us about

7:02

windowless low Countries sugar scrub. What is it?

7:04

I mean I'm assuming other scrub. The skin

7:06

scrubber. Yes, it is a skin scrub. I

7:09

started out with a body scrub. I'd never

7:11

heard of us as a scrub in my

7:13

fifties. Yeah, somebody told me to try server

7:15

and coconut oil and rub it all over

7:17

my body and I was like. Oh My.

7:19

God. This the most amazing since I've ever. Done

7:21

in my life as a coconut oil

7:23

and you mix it with grandly treated

7:25

and it just rub because wake of

7:28

sugars it exfoliate right. It's gonna take

7:30

off old dead skin right? Yeah and

7:32

it's low end of the diabetics is

7:34

rubbing sugar injured again so good that

7:36

way. okay I gotta go back Is

7:38

her desk left of the odds area.

7:40

I did that and then I. i

7:43

said either decisiveness that's a pretty but

7:45

i didn't know that i could formulate

7:47

or make anything myself so ice is

7:49

some because i was in the game

7:51

lady suggested something that would maybe put

7:53

away this it smells happy o'clock you

7:55

use it is often your hands and

7:57

that's how i came up with a

7:59

hand Okay, and tell me what's

8:01

your question for us? Okay,

8:04

if you Google hand scrub, you're not going to really come up

8:07

with just a hand scrub. You might

8:09

come up with like a go-jo type of

8:11

O'Keefe's working hands thing, or you might come

8:13

up with a product that's a body and

8:15

a hand scrub. Mine is a niche

8:17

made for the hands, and it says in big

8:19

letters on the label the hand scrub. But

8:22

I would like to ask, what

8:24

can I do to let the

8:27

customer know what this is, what it does,

8:29

and how to use it? Tom,

8:32

before we answer Wendy's question, do

8:34

you have any questions, just

8:36

clarifying questions for her? Yes,

8:39

is it different than soap? Yes,

8:41

it's not an antibacterial, although shea butter,

8:43

which is one of my ingredients, and

8:46

beeswax have natural antibacterial properties. This

8:49

is something that's made to exfoliate, which

8:51

is going to take away dead skin

8:53

cells, but then it moisturizes your hands

8:55

like a lotion. So no, it's not

8:58

a soap, but it is something you

9:00

wash just like you would with soap,

9:02

with water. As the water

9:04

activates the scrub, the sugars dissolve,

9:06

and then these butters, raw shea

9:09

butter and coconut butter, they melt

9:11

into your skin, and you're like, oh my gosh,

9:13

this is amazing. Buttery

9:16

skin, you're basically turning skin

9:18

into buttery skin. It's

9:21

the fat you want on your skin, not inside

9:23

of the outside. I love

9:25

butter, too. I love eating it. The

9:27

extra butter on pancakes. It's great. If

9:29

you ever have dipped your hands into

9:31

shea butter, you would love that, too.

9:34

It's beautiful. So when do

9:36

you use it? Is it by your bathroom sink? Is

9:38

it by your kitchen sink? Because I looked on your

9:40

website, too. It

9:43

seems like it gets rid of odors and things like

9:45

that, too. Yes, some of the skews do. And those,

9:47

yes, you would keep by your kitchen sink. You touch

9:49

the garlic, you touch the seafood, you touch the onion,

9:51

whatever, refresh your hands. Otherwise,

9:54

it's nice in the regular bathroom. It just

9:56

makes your hands feel good. Do you know

9:58

that you're stuffing your hands? like someone would

10:00

use a lotion, is you would use it. All

10:03

right, so your question is how do you get

10:06

consumers to understand your product? How do you even

10:08

show people how to use it? I have a

10:10

lot of thoughts. Tom, do you want to start

10:13

on this? Well, I'm just kind of catching up. So

10:15

it says it says removes wonky

10:18

cooking smells from the hands. Yeah. Is

10:21

that what it what does it say on the packaging? Yes. Well,

10:24

for this one, for that skew, you're

10:26

looking at the herbal line, which, yes,

10:28

it does say, no, keep

10:32

the scrubs by your sink, grab a

10:34

small bit, wash with water, mushy, mush,

10:37

washy, wash all up in those

10:39

foxy fox hands of yours. Got it.

10:42

Got it. So that's what it says.

10:44

Okay. So it's the hand scrub.

10:46

So it's Wendola's, the hand scrub, the hand scrub

10:48

Rosemary Mint. I'm looking at that, right? For that

10:50

one. And you've got tons and tons of different.

10:52

You've got the gardener scrub, the chef's line.

10:54

You've got a line for chefs. You've got

10:57

the man scrub. Oh, the man scrub. And

10:59

this is only for hands, right? This is

11:01

not foot scrub. These

11:03

are not. These are not. I have a

11:05

separate line on there. Yeah, that's another story. Okay. Okay.

11:09

Yes. These are the hand scrubs is

11:11

what my niece is, which is what I'm going after. Period.

11:14

Okay. Tom, any initial advice?

11:16

Because I have a piece of advice, but

11:18

I want to hear yours first if you

11:20

get it. Well,

11:23

it's looking at it. It just seems like

11:25

the messages are kind of a

11:27

little bit confusing, right? They're kind of all over

11:29

the place. There's some fun. You

11:32

want to be like fun and live, laugh,

11:34

scrub. And then it's kind of, then there's some

11:37

other ones that are like luxurious and more

11:39

spa seeming. I

11:42

think for me, you know, you've really got it.

11:44

You've really got to get some attention. It's so

11:46

hard, right? Like hand lotions and all

11:48

that stuff that's out there and they know the,

11:50

the, all the organic

11:52

stuff. I did. I was

11:54

doing probably, I don't even know that I've ever told anybody

11:56

this. I certainly not on air. We,

12:00

Baby Bump came out with a,

12:02

was gonna come out with a nipple butter, a

12:04

nipple cream. Oh, this is a baby version of

12:07

Sun Bum, the baby line. A baby version of

12:09

Sun Bum. And I had an

12:11

ad that I wanted to do for it, a

12:13

standalone thing that just would be on shelf that

12:15

would say, your baby sucks. Big

12:17

huge letters. So you're gonna

12:19

need this product underneath, really small. And

12:22

that didn't make it? They were like... No, we

12:24

didn't make the product. But I was so proud

12:26

of that. Only, I know, would never make it,

12:28

and no store would carry that. But

12:31

it was just, you just had to get people's attention.

12:33

And also on

12:36

the lip balm side, I was wondering how am I

12:38

gonna ever take on ChapStick? And

12:41

I was sitting having a taco at the

12:43

taco stand in Encinitas and looked over and there

12:45

was a bar there, first street

12:47

bar, and it said, best burgers in San Diego.

12:49

And I was like, yeah, actually go try those

12:52

burgers sometime. Like those

12:54

coffee shops, those best coffee in town, voted

12:56

best. That's the only reason I'm ever gonna

12:58

stop and check out their coffee or go

13:00

to that. I would have never gone to

13:02

that bar to check out their burger unless

13:04

it said best burgers. And so we

13:07

ended up making it a signage that

13:09

said, world's greatest lip balm to us

13:11

in little parentheses underneath it. So it

13:13

was, you know, world's greatest lip balm.

13:15

So my long way to make a point is

13:18

really gotta get some

13:20

attention. I know you're gonna want to describe

13:23

what this thing actually is, but

13:26

you know, Wendela's amazing world's

13:29

greatest sugar scrub. I

13:31

love the planet. According

13:36

to some people, you can

13:38

make that, I mean, Tom, you're right.

13:40

How many restaurants or burger

13:42

joints you go to this is world's greatest burger. There's

13:44

at least five of them in San Francisco. And

13:47

some of those burgers are not the world's greatest,

13:49

but it doesn't matter, especially if

13:52

in the parentheses under you say according to

13:54

my mother or something. Like

13:57

Wendela's famous sugar scrub. Okay. What am

13:59

I? been missing it's famous. How come

14:01

I've never heard of this before? I don't

14:03

know about Wendell's. Yeah, I don't know this

14:05

art. So something like that, something

14:08

to get me to think this is really

14:10

something that I haven't heard about and

14:12

how come I haven't heard about it? How

14:15

come I haven't tried this coffee? I think

14:17

you put world famous Wendell's and then you

14:19

just put world famous. Add that. I think

14:21

you're absolutely right. I don't know why. I

14:23

think the best advice. I'm literally

14:26

going to change all my labels. I'm getting

14:28

it. World famous. It's great. All

14:30

right. Here's a practical thing that

14:32

you should try. You

14:34

have an incredible charisma because

14:38

you're jumping out of

14:40

this microphone like you are in

14:42

the room with everybody

14:44

listening and you have that

14:46

incredible personality. You need

14:49

to be scrubbing your hands multiple

14:51

times a day and putting

14:53

videos out wherever you can on TikTok,

14:55

Instagram. Now, I'm not saying millions of

14:57

people are going to find you, but

15:00

you're funny and you're interesting and you've

15:02

got a lot to say about this.

15:04

And I need to see

15:06

you or other people or go out on

15:08

the streets to be like, can I just

15:10

scrub your hands? Can I give you a

15:12

hand scrub? Just try weird things like that

15:15

and just put it out even if it's

15:17

to 100 or 500 people. That's interesting. I'm

15:19

going to do that. I think I'm going

15:21

to scrub a person's hands in all 50

15:23

states in 30 days. I think I'm going to

15:25

do that. That's a great idea. Or, and go

15:27

into kitchens and say, I'm going to scrub the

15:30

hands of these hardworking chefs and

15:32

just go in and say, hey, take a break everybody. I'm going

15:34

to scrub your hands and then just leave some tins and you

15:36

go to the next restaurant. I think that's

15:38

great. It's boots on the ground

15:41

going and doing. Going and doing.

15:43

And I think just one more time,

15:45

just be really disciplined. Be really disciplined

15:47

on who, what the brand is.

15:50

If you look at Ben and Jerry's and

15:52

the names of their products and the humor

15:54

and the way they write, they went all

15:56

in on that liquid death, all in on

15:58

their edge. It's just so. I know

16:00

who they are. When I look at your

16:03

brand, I see you're over

16:05

here, and then you're over here, and then you're for

16:07

a spa, and then you're live-life scrub, and then you're,

16:09

no, it's coconut sugar, and it's like, I want to

16:11

see like a coconut oil

16:13

and organic cocoa butter, like putting some

16:15

of those words on will attract that

16:17

organic natural customer without saying it's natural

16:19

or all organic, but you can still

16:21

put the words on it that are

16:23

the buzzwords that people look at it

16:25

and say, oh, that's good for me,

16:27

and it's going to make my hands,

16:30

and it sounds luxurious, and it seems

16:32

kind of cool, and you're

16:34

cool, but you got to get me

16:36

there to even look at the can, and that's where I

16:38

think the name's got to change. Well, that's a lot of

16:40

words on a label. How am I going to get to all

16:42

that in there? No, you know, you're repeating stuff. You

16:44

know, you got the hand scrub, the hand scrub

16:46

twice on the front, and

16:48

you're repeating stuff left to right on the label. You have

16:50

the same thing, I think, on one side as the other.

16:52

You got some, I mean, you can't

16:55

put it all. No, and

16:57

Tom, I think, right, I think what you're saying is you

16:59

throw those words out on a piece of paper,

17:01

and you distill it into one or two or

17:04

three words that tell a story about you, about

17:07

this product, Wendola's world-famous coconut

17:09

scrub, you know. Maybe lose,

17:11

maybe lose to live, laugh,

17:13

scrub, and give a something

17:15

else there, you know what I mean? Because I don't know what that

17:17

is. Yeah, it's new thick. I don't know what that means, yeah. I

17:19

don't know what, how I'm supposed to live, what I'm laughing at, and

17:22

scrub. I'm not a fan of that. So

17:25

maybe you can, maybe take some words out

17:27

and put some important words in for people

17:29

to be like, oh, it's natural. It's

17:31

got these coconut oils and all

17:33

that. It's fun, and it's world-famous. How come,

17:35

I gotta try it. Commit to your personality.

17:37

Like, if I was talking to you, like,

17:40

separately, I would be, I would be listening

17:42

to you, and just like Guy pointed out,

17:44

like, you're funny, and you got

17:46

great personality. And so go

17:49

with that. Like, that's what it is. Don't try

17:51

to be a spa. If you're not a spa

17:53

person, don't try to be a spa person.

17:55

If you're, if you are, and so just

17:57

come down to the essence of your personality.

18:00

and be authentic and

18:02

be vulnerable. Go all in

18:04

on you. Yep. All

18:07

right. Wendy Cushill of Wendellows

18:09

Now World Famous. John-based

18:12

hand scrub. Thanks so much, Wendy. We're gonna be following

18:14

you. Good luck. Thank you.

18:16

Both of you. It was wonderful to speak

18:18

to both of you. Mwah, mwah, mwah. You too.

18:20

Thank you so much, Wendy. Thank you.

18:22

World Famous. I'd go for... You're so right about

18:25

that, Tom. Like, how many times you pass a

18:28

any like a taco stand or a churro

18:30

stand or a lemonade stand. It's

18:32

like World Famous. And you're like, huh, we

18:34

don't... We're not like, oh, where's the... Where's

18:36

like the... Where's the proof. Where's the proof?

18:38

Where's the committee that actually... We have no

18:41

idea. They just write that. No idea. Yeah.

18:43

Think about if you were like walking past

18:45

the chip aisle, you're having a, you know,

18:47

a Cinco de Mayo party, right? And you're

18:49

walking past all the chips. And then it's

18:51

like World Famous, Wendola's chips. You know

18:54

what I mean? You'd be like,

18:56

I like that. That gives you at

18:58

least a second to pause, to read

19:01

more, to look at the chip, to

19:03

read the ingredients or whatever. But if

19:05

you don't have that, if it's just

19:07

like Wendy's chips, no

19:09

chance. Okay,

19:11

Tom, we're gonna take a quick break.

19:13

But when we come back, we're gonna

19:16

hear from another caller, someone who went

19:18

from producing reality TV shows to selling

19:20

trucker hats. Stay with us, everyone.

19:22

I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the Advice

19:24

Line on how I built this lab. Here

19:33

on our show, we bring you tales

19:35

of the long, sometimes really hard road

19:37

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the smartest way to hire. Hey,

24:02

welcome back to the Advice Line on how

24:04

I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz, and

24:06

I'm taking calls along with my friend, the

24:08

branding expert, Tom Rinks. And

24:10

Tom, I mean, you started Sunbum more than a

24:12

decade ago, I think, I think, you know, like

24:14

late 2009, I believe, if I got

24:18

my timeframe right. And if

24:20

you were doing it today, right, a lot

24:23

has changed, right? The 2010s was

24:25

kind of like the decade of direct

24:27

to consumer, right? And in general,

24:29

do you think it's harder to launch a consumer

24:31

product now than even then when you did it

24:33

in 2010 or not?

24:36

I don't think so. I think you just

24:38

have to find what's not being done. So

24:40

with Sunbum, I would just when

24:42

I did it in 2009 with my friends,

24:45

we saw what was in the marketplace. And

24:47

we went in a different direction that we

24:49

could go because we were small, and we

24:51

could just move faster and be with the

24:54

times a little bit better. And we knew

24:56

what that looked like. If I was going to do

24:58

it now, it would do something opposite of Sunbum. And

25:01

so it'd be the opposite of cool. It would be

25:03

like a nerd sunscreen or something. Oh, I got to

25:06

get it. You know what I mean? That would just

25:08

be like, hey, it's just a product to protect you.

25:10

And they all work pretty much the same. Buying

25:13

our product isn't going to make you any cooler. And by

25:15

the way, nobody's cool. Either

25:17

everybody's cool or nobody's cool. So

25:19

just wear sunscreen and carry on.

25:23

Okay. Let's take another call. Tom, shall we?

25:26

Sure. Okay. Next caller is

25:28

on the line. Is that

25:30

Allison on the line with us? Yes, it

25:33

is. Allison, welcome. Tell us your name,

25:35

where you're calling from, and a

25:38

little bit about your business. Sure.

25:40

My name is Allison Mandelbaum, and

25:43

I'm calling from Fairfield, Connecticut. And

25:45

I'm the founder of Shady Lady, which

25:47

is a beachy lifestyle brand. But we

25:50

specialize in baseball and trucker hats that

25:52

are made to fit the measurements of

25:54

a woman's head. Okay. And

25:57

baseball and trucker hats made to fit the measurements of

25:59

a woman's head. which we'll get to in a moment.

26:01

And what's your question for us today? So

26:04

my question today is, as

26:06

a small business with a

26:08

very little, little advertising budget,

26:11

how do you get your brand out

26:13

there if you don't have the backing of like,

26:16

if you're not a celebrity, if you're not a

26:18

huge influencer, once people see

26:20

these hats, like they love them, they

26:22

love them because they are the best

26:24

fit, they're so comfortable, but

26:26

how do you cut through all that

26:28

noise on social media and this crowded

26:30

marketplace to get people to understand what's

26:32

so different and special about these hats? Okay,

26:35

we'll get to your question in a moment. Alison, tell us a

26:37

little bit about how you got into the, because

26:39

I think you started, you founded this in 2020, right? How

26:42

did you get into the hat business? What were you

26:44

doing at the time? I mean, kind

26:46

of by accident. So I was a

26:48

TV, a reality TV producer by trade.

26:50

I worked a lot at MTV, my

26:53

super sweet 16, True Life,

26:55

Catfish, all that fun. And

26:58

then I had my two little

27:01

kids and I was

27:03

traveling a lot as a TV producer

27:05

and kind of my lifestyle changed. And

27:07

all of a sudden I just, I

27:09

don't know what happened. I got this

27:11

like entrepreneurial bug where I just kind

27:13

of kept looking at things for different

27:15

ideas. And I just kind

27:17

of became obsessed with finding

27:19

something. You know,

27:21

and Shady Lady, this really just grew out of me and

27:24

not being able to find a hat that I

27:27

felt like fit me well. I felt like my

27:29

husband could easily throw on a baseball hat, walk

27:31

out the door, you know, and looked

27:33

great. I, you know,

27:35

was a hot mess. Two little kids wanted

27:38

to still, you know, look okay at pickup

27:40

and drop off, but could not find a

27:42

hat that fit me well. Like they were

27:44

all too big, too stiff. I felt like

27:46

my ears either I had to have them

27:49

sticking out or tucked in. And

27:51

so I, you know, kind of

27:53

did some research around this and realized

27:55

that even hats that are pink or

27:57

say things like, you know, hashtag mom,

27:59

like. were still the same

28:01

measurements as the hats that

28:03

were made to fit men and that my husband

28:05

was wearing. So I figured other women may be

28:08

having this same problem that I am,

28:10

you know, with hats not fitting correctly because they're

28:12

just not made for us. All right, so

28:14

you started this in 2020 as a direct-to-consumer business,

28:17

right? So we're actually,

28:19

right now we're mostly wholesale and we

28:21

do awesome in wholesale. Like

28:23

we're in Macy's and we got picked

28:25

up by Ron John Surfshops and really

28:27

like boutiques all over the country.

28:30

But my wholesale margins

28:33

are really small and they've gotten smaller

28:36

like all through COVID, you know, prices

28:38

of materials went up, prices of shipping

28:40

went up, and my wholesale margins just

28:42

kind of kept getting down,

28:44

down, down. So really to keep the

28:46

business going and keep it healthy and

28:48

really have it thrive, I need to

28:51

be doing more direct-to-consumer. So

28:54

before we answer Allison's questions, do

28:56

you have any questions about her business?

28:59

When you say your margins are bad, are you selling them

29:01

for the same prices you're selling on your website or

29:03

are you selling them for less?

29:06

So my wholesale price is $15 and on my website

29:09

we sell them for $36. Got

29:12

it. And can I ask how they're

29:14

selling at Ron John's and the places that they're

29:16

actually are at retail, are they selling okay? Yeah,

29:18

they do well. I mean, you know, I think part

29:21

of the problem and you know, I've talked to Ron

29:23

John about this a little bit, is they get lost

29:25

a little bit because there's a huge wall of hats

29:27

and a lot of, you know, Billabong

29:29

displays and a lot of Roxy displays and

29:32

our hats are kind of mixed in with

29:34

all of it. You

29:36

know, so that is like one problem, you

29:38

know, but they do sell there. But it's,

29:40

you know, but even then in a

29:43

store like that I'm still not getting my like

29:46

point and mission across of like these are

29:48

the best fitting hats because I made them

29:50

to fit women. Like they have shorter brims

29:52

in the front and they have smaller domes

29:55

and they sit right above your ears. Like

29:57

they really are an awesome fit. Yeah,

29:59

I think that's super important because I know

30:01

from stuff that I've done before like

30:03

hats on like women's hats especially trooper

30:05

hats trying to fit them really

30:07

tough like you say the ears stick out you

30:10

know you should definitely if you don't have it like

30:12

show show what that looks like

30:14

on your website or show what that a

30:16

diagram of the problem agree of the hat

30:19

world to lean in on that yeah for

30:21

women um and then you know

30:23

the double conundrum for you

30:25

is it's not just the fit right

30:27

it's fit and fashion and there's so

30:30

many brands and so you

30:32

not only have to have a better fit which you

30:34

do it's great looking hat you

30:36

have to have fashion you have to know

30:38

what's selling and you have to know what

30:40

icons they want so you have to be

30:42

up on top of you know looking at

30:44

the ask cotton heart or aviator nation or

30:46

what are they doing and not trying to

30:48

think of it so much yourself but trying

30:50

to see what's really really popular out there

30:52

you know i know the happy faces i

30:54

think you have a happy face on your

30:56

site we do this is my

30:58

coat right next to me yeah some

31:00

of those things are just those iconic pieces

31:02

that people are actually women are actually looking

31:04

for so yeah kind of you're kind of

31:07

you've got the you've got the hat that

31:09

fits good but you just have to be

31:11

so on top of fashion um

31:15

and then you know looking at your website i

31:17

just see you know there's you do beanies as

31:19

well and let me go back to that like

31:21

like shady lady tell me about that one i'm not

31:23

so sure everybody wants to be a

31:26

shady lady um what is that

31:28

and and you know do you need like a thing

31:31

underneath it that's like custom

31:33

shade since 2020 like

31:35

something that says oh this is for shade

31:38

like if the mission

31:40

was more because it's called shady lady to

31:42

give shade to your face which is so

31:44

important then beanies don't make

31:46

sense and you know tote bags don't super

31:49

make sense unless they're a free gift if

31:51

you buy so much but just leaning in

31:54

to protection and face protection

31:56

for women especially with these

31:58

hats and staying super focus.

32:00

So you're doing big beach hats

32:02

with big brims, you're doing visors,

32:04

you're doing lifeguard hats, you're staying

32:06

in that lane.

32:08

So you're really focused on the missional

32:11

part of why you're doing this as

32:13

opposed to the fashion

32:15

part is huge. But

32:17

if you have a little mission underneath it,

32:20

it's like you'll be protecting your face and that's

32:22

really what it's all about. I think, Tom, I

32:24

think that's such an important point because if ultimately

32:28

you can create this wormhole in

32:30

a crowded market, crowded category, right?

32:32

Hats are crowded. But basically what

32:34

you're saying is, look, these are

32:36

designed for women and that doesn't

32:38

jump right out at you in

32:41

the way that you put this on the

32:43

website. So it's important to pull that out to make it clear

32:45

that these are designed for

32:48

women's heads. These are designed to look great on

32:50

women. Chip Wilson did this

32:52

with Lulu Lemon when he introduced

32:54

that product 20 years ago and

32:56

revolutionized activewear and yoga wear. Essentially

32:59

what you're saying is this is designed

33:01

for women and to Tom's point, it's

33:03

designed to protect you from the sun.

33:05

And you mentioned that it's

33:07

really hard to get attention where you don't

33:09

have celebrities or big influencers, but there are

33:11

micro influencers who are focused on skincare

33:15

and on protecting your skin from the sun,

33:17

on using products like Tom's Sun

33:19

Bomb and other skincare products. It seems to

33:22

me that if you can connect with one

33:24

of these micro influencers and it might cost

33:26

you a thousand bucks and not

33:28

that much to get them to wear

33:30

the hat and to talk about why

33:33

this hat is so important as part

33:35

of a whole regimen of skin protection

33:37

for women, that could be

33:39

an interesting wormhole. Yeah, yes,

33:42

no, definitely. I 100% agree. I think, I

33:44

mean, I'm

33:47

not the best D2C guy, but

33:49

I would two-tier approach it. I would do

33:52

exactly what Guy said with the micro influencers

33:54

to try to get some drive

33:56

to your website. Yeah. And then I

33:58

would, you know, Sun Bomb in

34:00

the early days in Florida, we would give

34:02

it to the breakers. We would give it

34:05

to like the four seasons and

34:08

just tell them. They'd be like, we don't need

34:10

it. We don't sell sunscreen or we already got

34:12

plenty of sunscreen. Just take it and

34:14

I'll come back next weekend. And if you don't

34:16

want it, if you didn't sell any,

34:18

then you just will just take it back or

34:20

you could throw it away. And if it's sold,

34:22

you can order some more. Early on, some of

34:25

those breaks that they would take it and they

34:27

would sell it and then they would place an

34:29

order. And as soon as they did, whether it was

34:31

the breakers or the four seasons or whoever,

34:33

we would just use that. The breakers carries

34:35

it down the street. You should carry the

34:38

four seasons. So all those aspirational hotels, I

34:40

would go to some really high

34:42

end hotels and I

34:44

think you seem like a good

34:46

salesperson and your product looks great.

34:49

And I would

34:51

do whatever it took to get into that one hotel.

34:53

And then you go to the next hotel and say,

34:55

hey, they have it. And they're like, whoa, it must

34:58

be something. If the four seasons is carrying it, I

35:00

think a high end retail is

35:02

a cheaper strategy long-term

35:05

than trying to think about this D2C.

35:07

But again, I'm not a D2C guy.

35:10

No, I'm also not opposed to that. If

35:12

like a big hotel, yes, please.

35:15

I would totally be into

35:17

that. I would also, and this

35:19

is not a shot in the dark. I mean, we've

35:21

seen small, small brands do

35:23

this with great success, which is to

35:25

try and find some

35:27

kind of brand collaboration. You're seeing Liquid

35:30

Death do this with different types

35:32

of brands. These really interesting collaborations

35:35

with makeup. It's good care. Rihanna

35:37

and Fenty did it with Ketchup.

35:40

I could imagine some kind

35:42

of collaboration with a sunscreen

35:44

or sun lotion brand that

35:46

is designed for the face. Whether it's,

35:48

we're talking about Sunbum here, but it could be

35:51

Supergoop or even a small up and coming brand

35:56

that seems like it's gaining some

35:58

traction that might be easier. you're to kind of

36:01

reach some kind of collaboration where

36:03

it's like hat and sunscreen together

36:06

to protect your face. And you also

36:09

look great and it's designed for women's heads and

36:11

that kind of thing. Yeah, no,

36:13

that's an awesome idea. That's awesome. Tom,

36:15

any last minute advice for Allison? Words

36:18

of wisdom? I

36:21

know how hard it is, Allison.

36:23

Okay. I feel you so bad.

36:25

I know. It's so hard, right?

36:28

I used to hop in shirts at

36:30

Michigan Games and it's just

36:32

so hard to keep going, but

36:34

your product looks really, really, really

36:36

great. And that's the bottom line.

36:38

If you have a great product,

36:41

you will make it. So it's really just hustling

36:44

more and getting it in the right

36:46

placement. And again, I would

36:48

say because it's so expensive and because you

36:50

don't have your margins, those resorts can go higher. They

36:52

can have a $50 truck or hat. You know what

36:55

I mean? And you can make some money, but you got

36:57

to make the money. So you got to go places where

36:59

you can charge enough so you can stay in business and

37:01

get these hats over the line. Yes. Thank

37:04

you so much, guys. That was amazing.

37:06

Thanks, Allison. Mandelbaum. Shady lady, good

37:08

luck. We'll be following you. Thank

37:10

you. Bye-bye. Bye. Tom,

37:13

we're going to take another short break, but when

37:16

we come back, one more call about a product

37:18

that lets you read a bedtime story, even

37:20

if you're far away from your kids. Stick

37:23

around. I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the

37:25

Advice Line here on How I Built This Lab.

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39:52

Hey, welcome back to the Advice Line on how I built this

39:54

lab. I am Guy Raz and I'm with Tom Rinks, founder of

39:57

Sunbum. And

40:00

we're taking questions from small business

40:02

owners and the are timeless screen

40:04

on. Another caller. I'm

40:07

the caller is it is it's efforts.

40:09

There's a fire that Everest perception us

40:11

Yellow Zephyrs tell us your this name

40:13

where you calling from and the just

40:16

a quick little bit about your business.

40:18

Sure my name is suffers white I'm

40:20

I'm calling from New York City and

40:23

my company's read to me. We invented

40:25

and sell the read to me recordable

40:27

Book Body which is as simple device

40:29

that lets you record yourself reading pretty

40:32

much any children's books. Then it attaches

40:34

to the back cover of that book.

40:37

And then the child in your life can

40:39

hear you read to them without any screens

40:41

whenever they want, even when you can be

40:43

together. Okay or it. And and

40:45

and Zephyrs, what's what's your classes a rough

40:47

for us. So. It's

40:50

a pretty unique product. There's not really

40:52

anything like it out there which is

40:54

great. however no one's searching for it.

40:57

so like no one's going online and

40:59

searching for products to help me reach

41:01

my kid when I'm away on business.

41:03

So I'm looking for some guidance on

41:06

may be specific channels or ideas to

41:08

help raise awareness of maybe the need

41:10

for the products or it artless break

41:13

it down. So so this is a

41:15

discrete describe this part. it's like up

41:17

of. A recording device that

41:19

you slide into a book and then and

41:21

you records your voice. reading the book in

41:24

the new hand. That whole thing to a

41:26

child and then they can just listen to

41:28

reading it. Yeah, that's correct. It's

41:30

A. It's probably about the size of

41:32

a ruler and there are twenty one

41:34

buttons on the side. Yup, is completely

41:36

contained, doesn't require any apps or anything,

41:38

so it's not gonna become obsolete. and

41:40

it uses solid state memory so it

41:42

just attaches to the back cover of

41:44

the books. So once you've recorded then

41:46

you give the books have a child

41:48

and they can just open it up

41:50

and press a button and hear that

41:52

page flip over to the next one.

41:54

here. the next page. zephyrs tell

41:56

me what you see started this

41:58

couple years ago What were you

42:01

doing at the time? Were you in book

42:03

sales or in technology? Like, what's your... Is

42:05

that your profession? No, not

42:07

at all. I'm actually... I'm a

42:09

specialty performer with the Metropolitan Opera,

42:12

which means if you... You're an opera

42:14

singer? I'm not. No, actually, if

42:16

you go to the opera and

42:19

you see someone on stage, but they're

42:21

not singing, but maybe they're juggling fire

42:23

or sword fighting or falling down stairs,

42:26

that's me. Wow. So

42:29

not really anything to do with books, but books have always

42:31

been a huge part of my life. That's

42:33

amazing. So how... So you're the guy swallowing the

42:35

fire swords? Yeah, that's me. Maybe not swallowing the

42:37

fire swords. Not swallowing the fire swords, but I

42:39

do do quite a bit of fire stuff. Wow.

42:41

So how did this idea come about? Yeah,

42:46

so this really started about

42:48

40 years ago. When

42:51

I was little, my grandma lived pretty

42:53

far away and she used to get

42:56

picture books and record herself reading the

42:58

book onto those old cassette tapes and

43:00

then she'd pack it up and send it and my

43:03

sister and I would listen on the cassette tape to

43:05

grandma read us the books. Then

43:07

flash forward several decades, my sister

43:09

had kids of her own, so

43:12

we pulled out grandma's old tapes thinking

43:15

it'd be great for them to hear their

43:17

great grandma. But if you tried

43:19

to listen to those old tapes, they degrade

43:21

over time and they were just

43:23

unusable. So that's when

43:26

I started thinking about the idea that it'd

43:28

be great if there was something out there

43:30

that would hold that recording forever. And

43:34

how did you develop it? How did you even crack

43:36

this thing? Where did you start? So

43:42

that was a real stroke of luck. I

43:45

met my partner, Arden, who... She's

43:47

a single mom, so we did

43:49

a lot of reading to her

43:52

son, but she also is a

43:54

former Navy engineer. And one time,

43:56

yeah, really helpful. One time I

43:59

was talking about the... The idea came up and I

44:01

was talking about it. I was like, do you think you

44:03

could design the circuitry for something like that? And she was

44:05

like, yeah, I used to work on fighter jets. I think

44:07

I can do that. So it's

44:11

a two person show. It's just her

44:13

and I, we designed it, had it

44:15

manufactured, ordered 5,000 of them,

44:17

stacked them up in our apartment. We do

44:19

all the marketing ourselves, all the fulfillment, all

44:22

the sales. So yeah, that was kind

44:24

of the genesis of the product. All right, so Zephyrus,

44:26

your question is, how do you

44:28

get people to know about this thing,

44:30

right? Awareness, that's your question, right? Awareness,

44:33

right. We started wholesaling to

44:35

indie bookshops because we figured we had

44:37

a captive audience. And that's been going

44:39

very well, but it's a relatively small

44:42

audience. So yeah, so we're just

44:44

trying to generate awareness and looking

44:46

for specific channels that would be most productive

44:49

for that. I have an idea. Tom,

44:51

do you wanna go first or do you want me to start? You

44:54

start. Okay, I'll start, okay. I

44:57

think that your marketing

45:00

focus for the short term, and

45:03

maybe short to medium term, needs

45:06

to entirely be grandparents,

45:08

right? It's because eventually it's

45:10

uncles and aunts and maybe

45:13

if there's like a, if the parents are divorced and one of

45:15

the parents can't see the kid all the time. But

45:18

I think, because grandparents have

45:20

cash, they got money usually,

45:22

right? And this is something you

45:24

can imagine them saying, yeah, I wanna do

45:26

this. Now, it doesn't seem very hard to

45:28

do. I'm looking at the instructions that, so

45:30

you get a grandparent recording it. I

45:33

think that obviously the

45:35

way people market products and especially direct

45:37

to consumer products through social media

45:39

marketing and there are micro influencers in

45:42

every category. There are tons of grandparent

45:44

micro influencers. These are people who

45:46

charge a little bit of money to talk

45:48

about products. And they're probably some with

45:50

10,000 followers or 5,000

45:53

followers. But that, if

45:55

they can show this product and how it's

45:57

being used by their grandchild.

46:00

That I think is a way to start. Tom, what do you

46:02

think? Yeah, I've got so many

46:04

thoughts. I'm just looking at the website. Uh-huh. And,

46:08

you know, people who know me know I'm super

46:10

brutally honest and sure. Good. We need this as

46:12

what this is for, Tom. Bring it on. They're

46:14

just like, as I was coming to get on

46:17

this podcast, they were like, you know, don't crush

46:19

any souls, crush any, don't crush the spirits like

46:21

you do. I'm already, I'm

46:23

prepared. But he's girding

46:25

himself, Tom. Yeah, okay. He's ready. I'll

46:28

start by saying, I think

46:30

this is a genius product that's

46:33

unbelievable, to be honest with you,

46:35

okay? And I see huge

46:37

space for this. I think the idea

46:39

is great. I think the execution is tough,

46:41

man. I think the website's tough. I think

46:43

the photography is tough. I

46:45

think the colors that you chose back in

46:47

the day were tough because you're not that,

46:49

right? But in a world of Apple, you

46:52

know, this just can't exist like

46:54

this for such a great idea. But

46:57

it's such a great idea. But I would put, I would

47:00

go all in. You're on stage, and I know that's

47:02

your life, but man, you gotta, if

47:05

you're gonna do something like this, it needs

47:07

to be completely redesigned or

47:09

retouched. It does have to be, not the technical

47:11

parts of it, just the aesthetic parts of it.

47:13

The way it looks. And the way it looks

47:16

and who you're focused on selling. So I

47:18

would have another idea for this on top of

47:21

Guy's idea. I mean, Art, and you said she

47:23

was in the Navy? Yeah, she

47:25

was, yeah. Okay.

47:28

To me, I would focus this

47:30

whole thing initially. I mean, that's a whole thing,

47:32

but 99% of it on military. Ah,

47:36

military. Yeah,

47:38

we've heard several to, yeah, to know what to deploy

47:40

military members. I want to say there's 100,000 parents deployed every year, right? Which

47:42

makes us whatever. That

47:48

is 250,000 kids that are without parents to read them every night. I

47:54

don't know how many millions of stories that are a

47:56

year that aren't getting read to. But

47:58

I would, there's places. that she should know

48:00

that she shopped at called the Navy Exchange.

48:03

And the government has set up

48:06

all these stores for all of the

48:08

military veterans, their families on

48:11

each base. I walked one once, they're

48:13

like a Walmart. They're huge. They let

48:15

all of the people who are serving

48:17

our country get discounted

48:20

gas, discounted food, discounted and they're gigantic.

48:22

And you have to be in the

48:24

military to get it. And to me,

48:26

if I saw

48:28

this and it said read to

48:30

me and just because you're

48:32

not home doesn't mean you can't read to

48:35

your child every night. And I see a

48:37

kid in his bed with his teddy bear

48:40

and you kind of push

48:42

this straight towards the

48:44

military. So if I'm walking around Barnes

48:50

and Noble, I don't know if I'm not a grandpa or I'm

48:52

not thinking about it or I don't get it. But if I'm

48:54

in one of those stores away from my

48:56

family and I see read to me, you may

48:59

not be there, but you can still read to

49:01

them. And I see that and it looks like

49:03

it was made for me. I'm

49:05

getting that because that's going to

49:07

pull every heart string.

49:10

That's a great idea. Tom,

49:12

it's also a world where

49:14

Zephyrus could create a program

49:16

where people could buy one

49:18

or donate one

49:20

to somebody deployed to a deployed,

49:22

someone deployed on a ship or deployed

49:25

on a mission somewhere around the world.

49:27

You have a program on the site

49:29

where it's like, hey, this Christmas send

49:31

one to a

49:33

soldier, a Marine. Oh, that's an amazing

49:36

idea. Yeah, that's fantastic. I love it.

49:38

And when you go in there to

49:40

sell them, you're not selling them a

49:42

candy bar and you kind of pop,

49:44

you're not doing that. You're going to

49:47

sell them something that their servicemen need

49:49

and would benefit them. And that's why

49:51

they exist in the first place. So you're

49:53

in with that kind

49:55

of a store. It's just like, it seems like

49:58

a no brainer to me. And I've I

50:00

would focus the marketing, the packaging, the

50:03

website, all of that, just straight

50:05

ahead at that. Like I see

50:07

there's a kid on

50:09

a blue velvet sofa with nail trim,

50:11

you know, sitting there reading that book.

50:13

Now it's a kid in bed with

50:15

his teddy bear and his service

50:18

father or mother, you know, he hears that

50:20

voice to them and you could show them

50:22

kind of recording it. I would

50:25

go straight to military. It's

50:27

huge. Huge. It's

50:29

a great idea. Zephyrus White, your product

50:31

is called Read to Me. We're gonna be following

50:33

it. Congrats, thanks for calling

50:35

in and good luck. Amazing, amazing

50:38

product. Thank you so much. This has really been

50:40

a treat. It's been a pleasure. Thank you

50:43

guys. Tom, thank you so much for coming back

50:45

onto the show, coming out of this show and

50:47

helping me go a lot of

50:49

some advice. I think it was helpful. I hope it was

50:51

helpful. Yeah, I think so. They were

50:53

great, man. Yeah. Those were some good guests. I

50:55

liked it any time, man. You're the best. I

50:57

love ya. Everybody loves ya. I

51:00

mean, let me tell your viewing audience, you didn't pay me to say

51:02

this. You didn't pay me anything to do this. But,

51:04

you know, everybody, whatever you

51:06

think of Guy Raz, you're right, he

51:09

is an amazing man. So glad for

51:11

your stuff. Now I

51:13

don't really know what to say. No, you're good.

51:16

You're good, man. Well, thank you, Tom. I don't like

51:18

too many people and I like you. By

51:22

the way, if you have not heard Tom

51:24

Rinks' episode, you've gotta go back and

51:26

check it out. Just scroll up in

51:28

your podcast. You will put a link

51:30

in the description below. Check

51:33

it out. It is an incredible story.

51:35

If you wanna learn anything about branding,

51:38

about design, you've gotta hear that episode.

51:40

Thank you for listening to the show

51:42

this week. If you are working on

51:45

a business and you've got a problem

51:47

that you need some advice on, you wanna be on the

51:49

show, send us a one-minute message that

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52:03

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52:24

put all of this information in the

52:26

show notes. And thanks. We'll see

52:28

you back here next week. This

52:31

episode was produced by Casey Herman with

52:33

music composed by Rontine Arablui. It was

52:36

edited by John Isabella. Our audio

52:38

engineer was Sina Lefredo. Our

52:41

production staff also includes Alex

52:43

Chung, Carla Estevez, Chris Messini,

52:45

Elaine Coates, Jacey Howard, Katherine

52:47

Seifer, Kerry Thompson, Neva Grant,

52:50

and Sam Paulsen. I'm

52:52

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