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3:16

Hey, really quick before we start the show, we

3:18

have an announcement about a really exciting

3:20

new thing we're launching, a newsletter.

3:22

And like our show, the

3:25

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3:27

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sign up, just visit guyrozz.com.

3:37

That's g-u-i-r-a-z.com. Once

3:44

you have 150, 200, 300 people in

3:46

line, I mean, those people were

3:48

not going to get a cronut. No, for

3:50

sure. Like only 50 people

3:52

were going to get one. Yeah, maybe. And we had

3:55

no rules. In the beginning, people were buying a dozen,

3:57

they were buying two dozen, and then we were like.

4:00

left with like nothing but there was

4:02

just like insane because we couldn't make enough. I

4:04

mean I remember this is covered on like national

4:06

news. You had like camera crews outside the bakery.

4:08

Many many days where I had like reporters

4:11

reporting live you're in

4:13

front of the bakery. Live from

4:15

the Cronod bakery. Because it was

4:17

madness so I had to hire

4:19

security to manage the line and

4:22

all I felt like is like it's

4:25

a nightmare. Welcome

4:33

to How I Built This.

4:35

A show about innovators, entrepreneurs,

4:37

idealists, and the stories behind

4:39

the movements they

4:42

built. I'm

4:45

Guy Roz and on the show today,

4:47

how an arranged marriage between a donut

4:49

and a croissant lived to a perfect

4:52

pastry called the Cronut and made Dominique

4:54

Ansel's Bakery one of the best known

4:56

in the world. There's

5:04

an inherent tension between making

5:06

an exceptional product and running

5:08

a scalable business. A

5:11

really well-made high quality product

5:13

usually takes time and

5:16

it takes expensive materials and it's

5:18

hard to scale. All

5:20

of which is perfectly fine. Scale doesn't

5:22

have to be the goal. The

5:25

goal is to build a

5:27

sustainable and profitable business which

5:29

is what Dominique Ansel's done

5:31

despite the temptation and the

5:33

pressure to expand and go big.

5:36

Now you may not immediately recognize his

5:38

name but you will know the product

5:40

he's most famous for. It's

5:42

what got him global attention for a period of

5:44

time starting in 2013. Dominique

5:47

invented the Cronut, a cross between

5:50

a croissant and a donut. For

5:53

months and even years after its

5:55

release, people would line up around

5:57

the block in front of Dominique's

5:59

baker. in New York just to get

6:01

their hands on one. Soon after,

6:04

investors and other folks with dollar

6:06

signs in their eyes approached Dominique.

6:08

Expand, they said, build a

6:10

cronut factory. But Dominique

6:13

resisted that and today he's built

6:15

a brand around just three bakeries

6:17

and a mail-order business. It's

6:19

profitable, sustainable, and most importantly to

6:21

Dominique, it doesn't cut corners when

6:23

it comes to quality. And

6:26

he's now widely considered to be one of the

6:28

best pastry chefs in the world. But

6:30

over the years, Dominique's also learned

6:32

how to be a businessman. Had

6:34

a splurge on things like butter

6:36

and flour, but cut costs by

6:39

learning how to fix generators and

6:41

toilets himself. For

6:43

a guy who would be an honored guest

6:45

at a Michelin-starred restaurant these days, Dominique

6:47

Ansel didn't grow up in that world.

6:49

In fact, he grew up in a

6:51

working-class home in a small town in

6:54

northern France where his dad worked in

6:56

a factory. I grew

6:58

up in one of the poorest towns

7:00

in France. I grew up in

7:04

one of the poorest neighborhoods in that town. And

7:06

I remember growing up,

7:08

I remember like food was something interesting

7:11

to me because I don't think my

7:13

family was the best at managing money.

7:16

Very often, like, you know, the

7:18

second or third week of the month, we

7:20

had nothing left. And so I was not

7:23

starving, but it was not

7:25

easy to come by. I was not eating

7:28

like the best food either. And my mom

7:30

was actually a terrible cook. It was so

7:32

bad. And I think that's probably what inspired

7:34

me to get to the kitchen. So, you

7:36

know, when I was 15 years

7:38

old, I was told that, you know, I

7:41

need to get a job. I couldn't

7:43

like keep going to university or anything like

7:45

this. It was not accessible to me. You were not

7:47

going to go to university. That was not your... No,

7:50

that was not an option. But, you know, my parents

7:52

never gave me any like guidance. They were okay with

7:55

anything I want to do. So, early

7:57

on, I decided, you know, I figured out that

7:59

that was... I was on my own and I had to

8:01

make my own choice, my own research. And

8:04

I decided to, you know, to find a

8:06

humble job and I started in the kitchen.

8:09

This was at a local restaurant you were working

8:11

at? A small local restaurant. That was a chef's

8:13

every chef. So I

8:15

did this program that was three weeks

8:18

with an employer and one week at

8:20

school. It was like a culinary school.

8:22

Learning culinary, yeah. But my

8:24

first year was just like miserable.

8:27

I hated everything about it. The people

8:29

I was working with were just terrible.

8:32

Abusive in every sense of the way. So

8:34

they would like cut me with knives. Cut

8:37

you with knives? Yeah. Just for fun.

8:39

Look at me laughing. The sous chef there

8:42

was like smoking weed. It

8:45

would like heat up the spatula by the stove,

8:48

remove it from the stove and I would come

8:50

just here in my arm with the hot spatula.

8:52

Wow. That sounds like hell. So

8:54

this, you know, like this is hell. This is

8:56

horrible. I would go to work every

8:58

morning waking up with like a nod my stomach

9:00

in fear of going to work. They'll

9:03

insult me, you know, slap me in the back of

9:05

the head, like punch me in the shoulder, like all

9:07

day long. And

9:10

luckily, luckily a year

9:12

later, the restaurant was

9:14

sold to a younger chef and

9:17

he was tough. But he was much better person.

9:20

He started showing me and teaching me,

9:22

showing me how to appreciate cooking, buying

9:25

nice ingredients and teach me how to work with

9:27

them, how to like cook it. And

9:29

I was, I started like developing the

9:31

care and the love for what I

9:34

was doing. So this really was kind

9:36

of the beginning of your, right, your

9:38

education. Clearly you were on the track

9:40

to become a chef. This is

9:42

what you were learning

9:44

how to what to do. And did

9:47

you, what was it about, about

9:50

that life that appealed to you? Did you like, I

9:52

don't know, did you like the idea of making

9:54

something and watching people eat it? Did

9:57

you like the experimentation? So

10:00

at that time, I had no choice. I

10:03

had no choice to get a little bit of money

10:06

to support the family, and

10:08

I had no options to quit. Quitting was not an

10:10

option. You needed the check. You needed

10:12

it. You stick with it no matter what. But

10:15

did you find that you were, had

10:19

a little bit of a talent for cooking? Did you,

10:21

did you, did you, anybody in

10:23

that kitchen ever say, you know, you're

10:26

a little bit better than the other trainees? Back

10:28

then, no. It

10:30

took time for me to appreciate what I

10:33

was doing, and then loving

10:35

it. And I think when

10:37

you reach that level of loving what you

10:39

do, this is where you really

10:42

blossom, and you really explore cooking

10:44

at a different level. Got

10:46

it. Okay, so you basically do

10:48

that for, I think about three years.

10:51

And I guess we should make this distinction, because most

10:54

chefs do not know how to

10:56

do pastry. And most pastry, a lot

10:58

of pastry people, they know how to cook,

11:00

but not as well, because it's like, it's

11:02

like if you're in baseball, and you're a

11:04

pitcher, you can hit, but you don't really

11:06

know how to hit, because you're not practicing

11:08

hitting anymore. You're just pitching. It's

11:11

like, right, so. So, I'm doing my

11:13

training in the first, in

11:15

the beginning stage. So I did two years in a restaurant,

11:18

with the same program, and then I did one

11:21

year in the bakery. So that was my first

11:23

test of learning baking. So I did walk in

11:25

the bakery for a year. I see, okay. But

11:29

what was it about baking and

11:31

pastry that you thought, this is the

11:33

direction I want to go into, because it's really one or the

11:35

other, right? I mean,

11:37

if you're gonna choose cooking that's

11:39

one direction, you're gonna choose pastry, that's the other

11:41

direction. I think I still love

11:43

both. I think cooking is

11:46

more like filling, tasting, seasoning,

11:48

and baking is more like

11:50

scientific. It's precise. It's science,

11:52

it's weighing, it's. It's also

11:54

art. It's also like

11:56

creating building from scratch. I

11:58

was a lot more attracted. to those

12:01

steps of building, understanding the science and

12:03

the precision of it. This was more

12:05

matching my personality and what I wanted

12:08

to do. I wonder,

12:10

I mean, because basically you started to drop

12:12

your resume off at different

12:14

bakeries. Yeah, I decided to go

12:17

to Paris, the capital, from

12:19

the countryside and to

12:21

find a job in a bakery. So I knew

12:23

nobody, I had no connections. No cell phone at

12:25

the time, still had this big, huge map, and

12:28

I was completely lost in the city. I

12:31

printed out a few resumes and I

12:33

would drive around for like hours, like

12:36

for many days. And every time we'll see a bakery,

12:38

I randomly park the car, run inside,

12:40

drop off my resume. And

12:42

I found a job at Pelt-Petsky Peltier, which

12:45

was at the time one of the oldest

12:47

pastry shops in Paris. I

12:49

will always remember this job because to

12:52

this day, I think there

12:54

I made one of the most beautiful

12:56

croissants I've ever made. Wow.

12:59

And I can say that I have no

13:01

shame to say it. I see like perfect

13:03

microphone every day, but the

13:05

way we were making it, so instead

13:08

of putting the butter inside the dough,

13:11

we used to cream the butter in our hands.

13:13

So it has to be pliable, but

13:15

not too soft, not too

13:18

hot. Not melty. And

13:20

you will spread it with your fingertip

13:22

inside the dough in two additions. Wow.

13:25

And only a few people can do

13:27

this because most people's hands are too

13:29

hot to handle the butter.

13:32

Yeah. But I've always have cold

13:34

hands, my entire life. You have

13:36

cold hands. I have cold hands,

13:38

which is good for chocolate and dough. Yeah.

13:42

How long, by the way, does it take to

13:44

make one croissant from the moment you start to

13:47

pour the ingredients to the time

13:49

that it's sold in the display

13:51

case? It takes three days. Three

13:54

days. So the first day we mix

13:56

the dough. And then

13:58

we have to let it ferment. Remove

14:01

all the gas that form the fermentation,

14:03

let it chill. The next day you

14:05

incorporate the butter and you give all

14:07

the folds. Then you cut

14:09

it, you roll it, and day three, you have

14:12

to do the rest of the night, day three

14:14

you ferment it again and then you bake it.

14:17

That's unbelievable. People don't

14:19

know this. They don't realize that something

14:21

that takes you like 45 seconds

14:23

to eat took three days to make. It's

14:26

a real craft. That's one of my

14:28

saddest things going up in France. I've

14:30

been to lots of bakeries. I love

14:33

bread. By nature in France,

14:35

people think that bread should be cheap. I

14:39

don't believe in that. Bread should be

14:41

more expensive. It takes so much labor

14:43

and so much time. All

14:46

right. So you work at

14:48

this bakery, this patisserie, Peltier, for

14:50

you. You move on to Farshant,

14:52

which is now, if you

14:54

go to Paris, there are a bunch of locations.

14:57

I think when

14:59

you worked there was just maybe

15:01

one location. Yeah, actually they filed

15:03

for bankruptcy, unfortunately, a few years

15:05

ago. They closed everything now.

15:08

It was one of the most

15:10

prestigious bakery and retail.

15:12

It's like the most high-end. It's

15:14

called chocolate. They sold all kinds

15:16

of things. Vegetables, spices,

15:18

coffee from all around the

15:21

world. When

15:24

you were hired, you were just hired as another pastry chef?

15:27

Yes. I left Peltier

15:29

after one year and I

15:31

walked into Farshant because

15:34

I knew it was one of the best bakeries.

15:36

I was a seasonal worker, so I was hired

15:38

for the holidays from September to December. I

15:41

was one of 30 people hired, actually.

15:45

Towards mid-December, they called us all in a

15:47

room. They told us they will keep one

15:49

person only. They had chosen me

15:51

to stay. I was supposed to

15:53

stay for four months. I ended up staying

15:55

for close to eight years. Wow.

16:00

was there. After six months, I was

16:02

promoted as the chef de party and

16:04

then quickly into sous chef. I

16:07

was 24. They bought like

16:09

another like 10 locations. I was in the kitchen.

16:11

I was in charge of

16:13

a team of over 100 people. So

16:16

you were just handed this team of 100 people.

16:18

How did you even know how to

16:20

manage 100? I mean, I was

16:22

not by myself. It was another chef. Yeah. Plus,

16:24

some a lot of others sous chef and was

16:26

one of the sous chef. So

16:29

I was one of the youngest in the

16:31

kitchen, actually. Yeah, because by the time you

16:33

were 24, I mean, you already had eight

16:35

years of experience in the kitchen under your belt.

16:37

So you were very experienced. You were very young.

16:39

But how did you I mean, how did you

16:41

just learn how to be a boss? I

16:44

mean, you know, I think my entire life observing

16:47

was something that that

16:49

was, I was very good at. So

16:52

growing up, I always observed my siblings,

16:55

you know, all the things they were doing all the bad things, all

16:58

the good things, I was picking shoes, what I want

17:00

to do. And I think I was

17:02

I was the same in the kitchen. So I've seen a

17:04

lot of people, you know, I'm seeing a lot of chefs

17:06

yelling and screaming. Oh, it always made me

17:08

feel uncomfortable. I see them putting

17:10

pressure on people. I see them like, it's

17:13

that was not my style. Did you

17:15

I mean, you were rising up the ranks

17:17

of for Sean, right? Did you ever while

17:19

you were there think, okay, eventually, I got

17:21

to start my own thing? Or

17:23

were you just happy working there

17:25

and being a part of that company? I think

17:28

deep inside since I started, I always wanted to

17:30

my own thing. I had some

17:33

up and down into like opening the business. Mostly

17:36

looking back, I was

17:38

scared of the financial aspect. Yeah, I was

17:40

always scared like how much would cost how

17:42

much risk it will be for my life

17:45

and spending too much and taking risks. But

17:47

deep inside, I always want to open my

17:49

own thing. I guess

17:51

we should mention that in France and in many,

17:53

actually many countries, it's not like in

17:55

the US, or you could just declare bankruptcy and

17:57

move on like if you start a business and

18:00

it goes bankrupt, you're saddled with that debt. Yeah,

18:02

you are, yes. You have to pay for it.

18:05

And that's why there's fewer risk taking. I mean, there's

18:07

just less risk taking. I mean, I'm not saying that

18:09

declaring bankruptcy is a good thing, but one

18:11

of the arguments as to why there's more business

18:14

innovation in the US is because of bankruptcy. That

18:16

you could take the risk. Yeah,

18:18

you can still do it in France,

18:20

you know, to declare bankruptcy for a

18:22

company, but there's a lot of things

18:24

that are attached to you personally. Right.

18:27

And that is, it's hard to get out of.

18:29

Yeah. All right, so you're working your

18:31

way up at Poisson, and you

18:33

eventually get promoted

18:36

to like corporate pastry chef, which I

18:38

guess means that you start

18:41

traveling around the world and sort of

18:43

helping them to develop new stores in

18:46

other cities. Yes. And

18:48

then with all that travel comes as really

18:51

major turning point in 2006. You

18:54

get a call from Daniel Balud, who was

18:56

and is one of the most famous chefs

18:58

in New York City and even around the

19:00

world. He calls

19:03

you and he says, hey, I'm looking for

19:05

a pastry chef. How did

19:07

you even get on his radar? So

19:09

we had some friends in common. They

19:12

had mentioned my name and gave my number,

19:14

and Daniel just calls me out of the

19:16

blue and tells

19:18

me about, you know, restaurant Daniel and

19:20

how he's interested. He's in my resume

19:22

and he wants to talk to me.

19:25

And a little bit of research, of course, Daniel,

19:27

the restaurant, what he was doing. I

19:30

love New York. I had visited before. And

19:33

before I went to Daniel, a lot of

19:35

people told me, you know what? It's gonna

19:38

be tough. His eyes has high expectations, has

19:41

very difficult job. And the more I would hear

19:43

this, the more it would make me like,

19:45

wanna do it. So Daniel

19:48

invited me to come to New York for a few

19:50

days to do a testing for him and

19:52

to meet and to see the restaurant. And

19:54

I had prepared probably, I

19:56

Think it was like four or five desserts

19:59

plus a kick. Some of you

20:01

knows he is some pretty for say I

20:03

remember like she was sitting down on tables

20:05

or drop the first desserts come back to

20:07

nab drugs Sagan desert and I was standing

20:09

next to him in loop. he looked up.

20:12

In. Was act so we went and you

20:14

start. As actually

20:17

just Susie after the separatists after the

20:19

second desert. ah and then he offer

20:21

me a job ready in there and

20:23

then they know that you know it.

20:25

Weeks later I came to New York

20:27

with to suggest this and add to

20:30

Pismo apartment in Queens and a sidewalk

20:32

and onion. Wow. So.

20:34

I'm indices and this is like two dozen

20:36

sexy or twenty eight. This is like the

20:38

beginning of the heyday. This is distilled the

20:40

for like the Michelin Guide came to New

20:43

York, it would come within a couple of

20:45

years. And but this

20:47

was certainly a mean. this was like about

20:49

as good as it gets a New York

20:51

City. What?

20:53

What Have you? What? were you? What was

20:55

your charged with? Were you told? hey? Just.

20:58

Let knock knock people out. Work.

21:00

On things it's gonna blow their

21:02

mind. Not out. no specific assignments

21:04

just to follow the sign of

21:06

cooking and make some good deserves.

21:08

I have to admit and the

21:10

time I was very nervous. Because.

21:14

Coming from for sure managing your

21:16

hundred hundred twenty people in the

21:18

kitchen to measure ten people are

21:21

Daniel piece of cake? Yeah, but

21:23

add to confirm their friends add

21:25

the restaurant setting, add the language

21:27

barrier as all of this. That.

21:30

May seem like super currency. A

21:33

pressure cooker. I also because they

21:35

were, I mean, I think three

21:37

years after he arrived they won

21:39

three Michelin stars some, but. I

21:42

imagine that that's actually when the pressure?

21:44

really? Kind. Of goes up

21:46

a notch because you then you

21:48

need to maintain that level of

21:50

quality in service. absolutely it's a

21:52

lot of for sure and and one of

21:54

the first thing that you than your say

21:57

to all of us are was rember i've

21:59

heard before But that's the first thing

22:01

you say, say that three missions

22:03

star is hard to earn. Three

22:07

missions star is like much harder to keep.

22:09

Yes. Yeah. Um,

22:12

why you see you end up spending about

22:15

five and a half years there. At what

22:17

point did you in your mind

22:19

start to think, cause the next thing that would happen

22:21

is you would leave and start your own bakery, but

22:24

at what point in your mind, did you

22:26

think, okay, I think I'm ready to take

22:28

this leap and do this. You

22:30

know, so it took me about like at

22:33

least a year to get comfortable with what

22:36

I was doing at Daniel to find

22:38

my style first, my style of play

22:41

the dessert. And like

22:43

after a year, four, five, I

22:46

was hungry for something else. I wanted

22:48

something else. I remember actually going to

22:50

see Daniel and talking to him about

22:52

what I want to do. Open the

22:55

bakery and showing him the business plan. And

22:58

I remember going back to him and be like, Hey,

23:00

we should talk. I don't want to do something we

23:02

can do it together. It was like,

23:04

no, Dominique, sorry. You know, it's a little too

23:06

risky. I'm not sure. I'm not sure

23:08

it's a good time. Which is fine. I mean, probably

23:10

part of it is even wanting to lose you. I

23:13

think that was the biggest thing for him. Yeah. I

23:16

remember, I remember like, because

23:18

of course he was not happy about it. And,

23:21

you know, I think it was like looking

23:23

back probably hurtful for him. You

23:25

know, it was such a tight close team.

23:28

It was almost like losing a son,

23:31

but you know, he's smart. He's, he

23:33

was been nothing but supportive to me.

23:37

And, you know, I will always be

23:39

like grateful to have the opportunity of coming with

23:41

him to walk under him and to learn so

23:43

much. So

23:45

when you decided to start your own

23:47

bakery, which you found is in 2011, Dominique

23:50

Ansel Bakery on Spring

23:52

Street. And so first of all, how did you

23:54

get the money to do it? I mean, how

23:56

did you find the financing to even start a

23:59

business? So back then

24:01

I was looking for investors.

24:04

I had reached out to a few people. I

24:06

was looking at two or three people that were

24:08

more or less serious. I had nothing.

24:11

I had a couple thousand dollars of savings.

24:14

So I was hoping to get an investor. I

24:17

had this meeting with my designer to see a

24:19

space on Union Square. I didn't walk out. He

24:22

went back to his Soho office. He

24:25

got off the train on

24:27

Spring Street, walked by the bakery and

24:29

called me. I was like, this is the space

24:31

here. This is bakery. Not far from

24:33

our office. It looks in pretty good shape.

24:35

Like you should check it out. Oh, it was available

24:38

for lease? Yes, it was available

24:40

for lease. It was used to be- And it was

24:42

already had. It had already been built out. It was

24:44

built out. It was like set up as a bakery.

24:47

And I walk in the bakery and I

24:49

fell in love. I was like,

24:51

this is the place. This is like perfect. You have

24:53

a little garden in the back. You

24:55

know, it was not very pretty. It was not

24:57

very good looking. We fixed it up. And

25:00

at the time I was dating

25:02

this girl who was in Hong

25:05

Kong. She was a food

25:07

writer. And this girl was my

25:09

girlfriend and she became my

25:11

wife. And I dragged

25:13

her into New York. I said, hey, why

25:15

don't you come help me open the bakery?

25:18

And she had a bit of savings as well. So

25:21

we put everything we had, both of us, on the

25:23

table and started this way. Wow. So

25:27

she took her money, her savings, your

25:29

meager savings, and you took out a

25:31

lease. And you had to take what, a three year lease

25:33

or five year lease out? Ten years lease. Ten years. And

25:36

I painted the bakery. I did some

25:38

tire work because I did this one

25:41

as a kid. I electrocuted myself a

25:43

few times changing outlets. You

25:46

know, cleaned the toilet,

25:48

fixed the computer. And we

25:50

patched it up back up and we opened

25:52

the bakery. And that's all we had. And

25:55

we had four employees. So this

25:57

is 2011. You open... This

26:01

bakery up and what did

26:03

you want it to be? Did you want it to

26:05

be like Patisserie Peltier that you worked out in Paris?

26:07

Did you want it to be more like fashion? What

26:10

was your vision of what you thought it should be?

26:12

No, I wanted to be

26:14

Dominican sub bakery. I

26:17

want to be my own. I have to say I have

26:19

to admit I was very

26:22

innocent back then. Yeah, and

26:24

completely unaware of what it would take

26:26

to open a business. So

26:29

we opened with four employees. We had

26:31

no managers. No, I

26:34

remember like looking at bank accounts once it was like

26:36

on a business bank account have like $2,000 left. And

26:40

I was like, how the hell I'm gonna

26:42

make it? This is like, yeah, my kitchen

26:44

was probably without exaggerating 15 feet by 10

26:47

feet. Well,

26:51

that was my kitchen. That was one table and

26:53

the doh-sheeter was sitting on table. And

26:56

so once you were ready to open it's just

26:58

four of you and it's you your then

27:00

girlfriend now wife and two employees baking.

27:02

You're gonna bake everything and

27:05

run the front of the shop sell, you

27:07

know cashier everything. So that

27:09

was just four people total doing everything. Yeah,

27:11

that was just that was insane. When

27:15

we come back in just a

27:17

moment things get slightly more insane

27:19

when people start camping outside the

27:21

bakery just to get their hands on

27:24

a cronut. Stay with us. I'm

27:27

Guy Roz and you're listening to How I Built

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32:10

R O Sudden. He

32:25

will come back to how I

32:27

built this. I'm Guy Raz so

32:29

it's two thousand Eleven and Domini

32:31

can sell. Is just about to

32:33

open his first bakery in New

32:35

York, but of course there are

32:37

tons of bakeries in the city,

32:39

especially cupcake bakeries because cupcakes are

32:41

really big at the time and

32:43

people are telling Dominique that he

32:45

should make them to. See.

32:47

What was that was those whom of

32:49

my pet peeve before going to be

32:51

free because of people with me to

32:54

make objects dude enemies of lot of

32:56

friends Chefs have tried to open a

32:58

bakery new york and film the machine.

33:00

Do it. Irritating me that we give

33:02

me old advisors without me asking. It's

33:04

and mean that I don't mind to

33:06

kicks in our him have had more

33:08

bought one then good one but i

33:10

never never wanted to do subjects a

33:12

bit. Did you get any? A mean

33:14

you're such a small team. Did you

33:16

have any like press. Or any articles

33:19

written about the bakery or you just

33:21

open the shop up. and so since

33:23

you know I was at that young

33:25

and than yeah of course is a

33:27

with older older major in on his

33:30

in New York and in New York

33:32

yeah in the Us as wants I'm

33:34

people pay attention because our team from

33:36

Daniela will for the new for so

33:39

many years and people to see what

33:41

I would I do for sex when

33:43

assessing is actually the noom told me

33:45

when I'm asked to say remember whatever.

33:47

You do. My. Name is

33:49

has to use know. Ce. Bit as

33:52

well. and i don't

33:54

smoke when he said that the na na

33:56

see them our descendants and are so we

33:58

had a new york times Florence

34:00

Fabica that came to the bakery

34:02

before we opened asking questions

34:05

see what I was going to do and she came back after

34:07

we opened I was wanting to taste the food and

34:09

she you know she loved

34:11

it yeah so she wrote this like

34:13

beautiful piece on the New York Times and

34:16

I remember right after that we were

34:18

like you know busy-ish not

34:20

too crazy in beginning after the New York Times article

34:22

I think was like two

34:25

weeks after we opened we were

34:27

slammed every single day it

34:30

was like madness after her article came

34:32

out yeah I didn't realize

34:34

the impact oh she's a massive deal

34:36

I mean she's a she's like an

34:38

old-school New York Times food writer has

34:41

been there for a long time she's

34:43

brilliant like knowledgeable about food she's

34:45

she's smart and I understand what people read

34:47

her and where people like follow

34:50

her so tell me about your

34:52

date your average day at that time you would get

34:54

to the bakery at 3 in the morning because you

34:56

got to start the process of making

34:58

the dough and proofing it exactly so

35:00

get that through morning start mixing the

35:03

dough let me do dough so that

35:05

would be for next day laminate means

35:07

put those sheets of butter on bold

35:09

it exactly doing all the folds getting

35:11

everything cat and ready then at 8

35:13

o'clock I will go to the service

35:15

station we have a little service station there we do all

35:18

the made-to-order egg sandwich and stuff like this

35:20

for breakfast so we'll help with

35:23

that and then I'll go back

35:25

and prepare the pastries for the day everything

35:27

was baked before opening right

35:30

at opening yeah the quinna man

35:32

as well can you manage one

35:34

of our best seller it's here

35:36

like that that caramelized sugary crescent

35:39

like little roll oh my

35:41

god yes it's divine it's like a

35:43

flaky caramelized quascon scrunchie on the outside

35:45

like chewy and tender in the center

35:47

there was one of our specialty and

35:50

and all right so those are ready by so the

35:52

pastry is ready by 11 and then tell

35:54

me about the rest of the day when at

35:56

the bakery the rest of the day I would

35:59

prepare all the pastries put everything out by

36:01

11 o'clock and 11 30

36:03

start service so we're doing all

36:05

the sandwiches made to order all

36:08

the salad soup everything for lunch

36:10

by like 2 2 30

36:12

i was done i'll go back to the kitchen start prepping

36:14

for the next day oh wow it was it was a

36:17

little bit too much in the beginning but it was you

36:19

know we came back it was fun it was like i

36:22

was excited to share i was

36:24

excited to like to show what i could do

36:26

that i didn't want to stop i want to

36:28

do more yeah and what time

36:31

did you get home so we closed the shop

36:33

at eight o'clock and then i had

36:35

no dishwasher at the time so i

36:37

wash all the dishes they cut the

36:39

trash sweep out the floor mop the

36:41

floor i would go home between like

36:44

10 11 p.m see

36:46

wait you would sleep for three maybe

36:48

four hours a night yeah that was

36:51

i mean i had i had no no choice i

36:53

had so much work to do how many how long did

36:55

you do that for i think i did

36:57

this for probably

36:59

like three almost four years

37:02

wow that was that was a lot i

37:05

mean how did how did you manage

37:07

your your health i mean that's just

37:09

unhealthy it right it is

37:12

it is i don't suggest anyone to do that

37:14

i had no choice yeah i had this this

37:16

time you know the determination and

37:18

i i don't give up on a

37:20

step positive so we have nothing and

37:22

nothing but my determination and me

37:24

fighting every single day to make it work or

37:27

are you profitable from the beginning no

37:30

no no no we lost money we lost

37:32

a lot of money in beginning what were

37:34

you losing money on because i mean you're

37:36

you're was it just the the cost of

37:38

ingredients i mean you had very few employees

37:40

what was the what was the

37:43

losing money on everything not so much the

37:45

cost of goods where you

37:47

have to build inventory which i never

37:50

thought of you know never think about

37:52

building inventory cost money uh staff uh

37:55

insurance benefits all the stuff

37:57

added uh And

38:00

when it comes in packaging, we

38:02

start investing packaging, like, oh

38:04

my God, which is like leading

38:06

money for months before that could make it a

38:08

little bit. You were still pretty young doing

38:11

this, and you were like 35, 34, 35. But

38:15

I mean, you'd gone from being the head

38:17

pastry chef at a Michelin three-star restaurant with

38:19

the attention that comes with that and the

38:21

prestige, to sleeping three

38:23

hours a night and sweeping the floors

38:26

and mopping the floors and doing the

38:28

dishes and kind

38:30

of like what you were doing 15 years earlier. Were

38:34

there any moments where you were like,

38:36

oh, what have I done? No.

38:40

No, because when it's your own, you

38:43

fight with everything you have. You

38:45

know, I was living very humbly. I

38:48

didn't have many expenses. I

38:50

have no kids. You know, I

38:52

was living with my girlfriend at

38:54

the time. It's risky, but I

38:56

knew eventually it was going to work. We

38:59

just had to find the right pattern, like,

39:02

you know, even like how much you sell your pastry

39:04

for. Is it like really worth it? Will people buy

39:06

it to increase your price a little bit? You

39:09

know, can you save on, start

39:11

saving on cost, like looking at all

39:13

like the packaging. I

39:15

remember calling one of my suppliers and asking him

39:17

to like drop the

39:20

price of the trash bag. He's

39:22

like, excuse me, it's too expensive. Of trash

39:24

bags? Yeah, you're buying a three millimeter trash

39:26

bag right now. That's a thickness of the

39:28

trash bag. You can buy two millimeters or

39:31

one, one is cheaper. I say yes, but

39:33

one would break and people would start doubling

39:35

at back. So I wanted two millimeters and

39:37

I want to try it. These are the big trash bags in

39:39

the back and they give in the kitchen at night. You haul

39:41

those into it. But two millimeters is

39:43

probably thick enough that it's not going to

39:45

break. Exactly. So I switched it and

39:48

I look at my numbers and

39:50

it was like shocking. It was like eight

39:52

thousand, over eight thousand dollars of saving a

39:54

year. What? Just for going from a three

39:56

millimeter bag to a two millimeter bag, you

39:59

saved eight thousand. dollars a year. That's like

40:01

those stories that you heard about when they

40:03

remove one olive from the first-class

40:05

salad, United saves a million dollars

40:08

or something. I think the most

40:10

important is to build relationship with

40:12

your vendor. You need to

40:14

get to know them, you need to

40:16

get to know... They have to

40:18

make money as well, they have to make profit. But

40:21

you need a reasonable pricing and

40:23

then building that relationship where when

40:25

they buy, they sell you something,

40:27

they sell you for the best

40:29

price. How did you get cheaper

40:31

flour or cheaper butter? I mean,

40:33

especially if the same suppliers are

40:35

selling larger quantities to other places.

40:37

Actually, this is going to sound

40:39

crazy and kind of intuitive, but

40:41

during COVID, everything gone up. All

40:43

the pricing gone up everywhere. And

40:45

I decided to import my butter and

40:48

my flour from France. Wow,

40:50

that's cheaper? No, it's not cheaper,

40:52

it's a lot more expensive. But

40:54

you differentiate yourself on the competition

40:56

because the quality of the ingredients

40:59

and the quality of the finished product is

41:01

much, much higher. You want to give

41:03

the best to your customers and you want to give the best

41:06

price possible as well. But back to

41:08

that time when you were trying to save money,

41:10

you negotiated the trash bags. What else did you

41:12

negotiate to lower your costs? I

41:15

think not so much negotiation, it's more

41:17

doing things myself. So if the

41:20

fridge will break, I'll fix the fridge. There's

41:22

an issue with plumbing. I don't call it

41:24

plumbing, I fix it myself. I cannot call

41:26

it plumbing. I'll pay like a thousand dollars.

41:28

I cannot call it nutrition. I'll pay like

41:30

a thousand dollars. I'll take to fix small

41:32

things. Sometimes I take them immediately fixed, that

41:34

is small. So a lot of like,

41:37

I'm going to research it. I'm going to figure it out.

41:39

I'm going to fix it myself. All

41:42

right. How long do you remember how long from the time

41:44

you opened in 2011, Florence Faber-Kant

41:46

writes a piece about you and then there's

41:48

lines, you know, it gets busier. But how

41:51

long did it take before you hit you broke

41:53

even you started to hit profitability? Do you remember?

41:56

I think it took us. I

41:58

will recover our investment. very quickly

42:00

because we invested so little.

42:04

It took us about four to five months,

42:06

I think. It's pretty great. I mean, I've

42:08

had founders on this show who

42:10

have billion dollar valued companies who still haven't

42:12

broken a profit. So there you

42:14

go. Yeah, when

42:17

you start with so little,

42:19

every dollar feels like so much

42:22

money. And even spending,

42:25

I remember my first check I wrote to

42:27

one of my vendor for one month was

42:29

$10,000. And I took

42:32

a deep breath like, my God, $10,000 for

42:34

one month. Yeah.

42:37

All right, so you've got the bakery going.

42:39

You're grinding away, working like a dog,

42:42

really, every day. And

42:46

then in 2013, the story I hear, I heard, is

42:52

that you're thinking of a special pastry that

42:55

you can make for Mother's Day. So that

42:57

would be in May of 2013. And

43:00

you started to think about some ideas. What

43:03

were you thinking about? To be honest,

43:05

I was busy over

43:07

one every single day. And my girlfriend,

43:10

again, and now my wife, she

43:12

was like, okay, this is something with donuts.

43:14

Maybe we can make a donut for Mother's Day.

43:16

A donut. I laugh at her. I laugh at

43:18

her. I was like, listen, I'm

43:20

French. I have no recipe for donut. And

43:23

she's like, oh, come on. I was like, no. And

43:25

then she asked me again. And again, she's like, come

43:27

on, you're creative. We can come up with something. But

43:29

isn't a donut generally fried? I mean, I guess you

43:32

can bake them, but they're fried. Yeah, it's fried, yeah.

43:34

Okay, so, and did you have a fryer in the

43:37

restaurant? Yeah, we had a little

43:39

fryer. Okay, you had a fryer, okay. I was like, yeah,

43:42

I can try, but I

43:44

really have no recipe for donuts. I can

43:46

try something. I loved, loved, loved

43:48

croissant. Growing up, of course, like millions of

43:51

croissants. And I was

43:53

like, we'll do something. So I decided

43:55

to like take the slayer of a

43:57

croissant, the flaky layers and ship them

43:59

as donuts. and fry it.

44:01

Wait, you basically said croissant dough

44:03

shaped into a doughnut and you dropped it

44:05

in a deep fryer. The

44:08

first one, yeah. The first test was a disaster.

44:11

It was bad. Sounds delicious, actually.

44:13

It didn't work. Fried croissant dough?

44:15

Yeah, it didn't work because there's

44:17

more to it. It's not just

44:19

the croissant dough. It's a special

44:21

type of dough that resembles croissant,

44:23

similar techniques. So you need

44:26

those layers, but you cannot be too

44:28

flaky. So it's a

44:30

little intricate. It took me about like two to

44:32

three months to develop the recipe. But

44:35

when she said, hey, try a doughnut, I

44:37

mean, you yourself said, I didn't want to

44:40

do a cupcake because that's not

44:42

me. A doughnut's also very

44:44

American. It's a very American dessert. Yeah,

44:47

we want to do something for Mother's Day for the weekend. It

44:49

was just for the weekend. So I tried over

44:52

and over again, probably like 30, 40 version of

44:54

it. And

44:57

then it was getting closer. It was getting better. It was

44:59

looking better. So what

45:02

were the things that you had to do to make

45:04

that work? So I had to change the type of

45:06

flour I was using. I had

45:08

to change the recipe

45:11

dehydration of the dough, the

45:14

high hydration. So it's a little

45:16

bit softer. More water in

45:18

the dough. Yeah, it's a little softer though. So the more

45:20

you add water, the more buyoshi you make it. If you

45:22

cannot make it too buyoshi or too flaky either, it has

45:25

to be just in between. You

45:28

try a different type of oil

45:30

to fry. I use a different

45:33

temperature as well for the lamination, which is

45:35

a kind of intuitive.

45:38

It cannot be too cold. Too

45:40

cold, too many layers, too flaky. So

45:44

it doesn't work. And then

45:46

when I was

45:48

more or less satisfied with the texture, which took a while,

45:50

there was a harder spot. I

45:53

played a little bit with the filling. And

45:55

I was like, okay, Let's try it. And

45:57

We were like, yeah, it's good. the

46:00

I remember like a a front of

46:02

us was journalist and he randomly without.

46:04

Without. Knowing that came by a bakery

46:06

would testing into like was eager Zu Machen

46:08

distinct like is soooo that occurred the corners

46:11

on and bring them in this weekend. Yeah

46:13

a crone that was song that don't that

46:15

in our sights and is not do It

46:17

was just sex. Without. A

46:20

seizure in my gown, table on a corner

46:22

they're going to give full pushes the corner

46:24

took a photo and a was a cool

46:26

like i'm gonna write about as like okay

46:28

he put he on his arms blogs that

46:31

was a grub street the time this is

46:33

this is humor when I think right yeah

46:35

was Sousa yeah and then he for he

46:37

put his article on the blog on grub

46:39

street the time cs and then he called

46:42

me to some afternoon. And was

46:44

I can send them neglecting going to be visit

46:46

weekend. My Aussie call when you vow. As.

46:48

A quiet. When. Wow, what does a

46:51

run in? Your article in Bow

46:53

is ago. I have over a hundred

46:55

forty thousand linked to my article, an

46:57

increase of of Trustee Com, the website,

46:59

and three hundred percent saw things and

47:01

a D V this weekend. As I

47:03

have no idea what you're talking about,

47:05

Happy Adam Wooden Bow means you know

47:07

is just the beginning of social media

47:09

and nobody knew anything about it. I

47:11

mean he did right in his article.

47:14

I've read it. He wrote a bold

47:16

step forward in history and mean it

47:18

wasn't just a little article about The

47:20

Crow that he was like. To

47:22

call this a bold step forward for

47:24

pastries and general. I mean that's kind

47:26

of a big deals. I'm not surprised

47:29

it went viral yeah I am a

47:31

says he likes people are was asked

47:33

me why do you think it when

47:35

valve it can tell the so many

47:38

things that got attached to this idea

47:40

a thing for us like the name

47:42

the. Ah, the simplicity

47:44

of flights when you look at it

47:47

in the second donuts. when you see

47:49

about it, it's for saw under nazi.

47:51

can. visualize it without even

47:54

eating a by d three

47:56

days three of the article

47:58

been posted We had a

48:00

look outside and I see a line and

48:02

I see lines stretching around the corner. So

48:05

I go around the corner and it's going all the way

48:07

down to the block, to the end of the block. I

48:10

was like, what the hell is happening? So I go

48:12

count the people, myself, and I count

48:14

150 people before we open the

48:16

doors. In line

48:18

before you open the door to get one

48:21

of these cronuts. And I was

48:23

like, what the hell is this? What's going on

48:25

here? And

48:27

then it was just ridiculous. The

48:29

line got longer and longer every single

48:31

day. I mean, I read

48:34

that the first day you only had 35 for sale.

48:36

That's right. The second 50. And

48:38

presumably you have to make more. Once

48:41

you have 150, 200, 300

48:43

people in line, I mean, those people

48:45

were not going to get a cronut. No,

48:48

for sure. Right? Like,

48:50

I mean, only 50 people were going to get

48:52

one. Yeah, maybe. And we had no rules. In

48:54

the beginning, people were buying a dozen. They were

48:56

buying two dozen. And we were like, left

48:59

with nothing. And people were cursing

49:01

at us. They were like, angry. And

49:04

then get it. You wait in line. You

49:06

don't know if you're going to get it or not.

49:08

And very early on, I decided to actually take care

49:10

of the line. Going outside,

49:12

letting people know how many we have, how many

49:15

we have left, and making sure that everyone is

49:17

aware of it. So if they wanted to wait

49:19

or not, they could. But it

49:21

was just insane because we couldn't make enough. I

49:23

mean, I remember this is covered on National News

49:25

in 2013. You

49:27

had cameras outside, camera crews outside

49:29

the bakery. Many many days

49:31

where I had reporters reporting

49:33

live. You're right in front of the bakery.

49:36

And I had to tell them. Live from

49:38

the cronut bakery. This is madness. People were

49:40

coming, fighting in line. I had

49:42

to hire security to manage the

49:44

line. So what happened is that people were

49:46

coming at two o'clock in the morning because they wanted to

49:49

be first in line. They were getting there at two in

49:51

the morning and just camping out.

49:53

At two o'clock in the morning. People

49:55

were coming to try to sell stuff to

49:57

the line. People were like, resetting pastries on

49:59

the street. street like I was

50:01

overwhelmed I didn't know how to handle this I

50:03

was like I can't I can't be outside and

50:05

police everyone and we need someone to help people

50:08

were selling these on Craigslist for like $100 $200 a

50:10

crone I'm more than that

50:14

I mean I know someone that bought like

50:16

two corners and they pay like $2,000 each

50:20

that's ridiculous it's totally the other thing

50:22

I read which I think is amazing

50:24

is you did not allow

50:26

your friends and family to cut the

50:28

line and get a cronut yes that

50:30

you actually that's correct you actually were

50:33

like if you I'm sorry I if

50:35

you want to try again line like

50:37

your friend your friends who were like dude yes

50:39

I I lost I lost a few

50:41

friends in the process but I wanted

50:44

to be true to myself you know I was

50:46

out of respect of people coming as early as

50:48

2 o'clock in the morning if you

50:50

want to try you have to go in line and

50:53

that the funny spot everybody's once like this

50:55

guy was a long line I was at

50:57

the door actually trying to help the team

50:59

the guy came from Los Angeles and told

51:01

me was this famous producer of movies and

51:04

like how do you know this movie and

51:06

this movie of the kid love this movies

51:08

like I made them I was

51:10

like good sir like thank you very

51:12

much but the line is still right

51:14

here and he was a little bitter

51:16

about it but I was like I

51:18

can't like we have to be

51:21

like respectful of everyone when he like doesn't matter

51:23

I love that it doesn't matter who you are

51:25

like my family came at the time it was

51:27

like a coincidence and I was supposed to

51:29

spend some time with them of course I spent no time with them

51:32

they want to try I said okay go

51:34

in line and they're like you're

51:36

joking right like I'm dead serious please

51:39

go in line if you won't try they

51:41

didn't try it but so this

51:44

went on for months

51:47

and months and months it's like like

51:49

this went on for years like

51:52

the staff was stressed out the customers were

51:55

stressed out all I feel like

51:57

is like it's a nightmare When

52:00

we come back in just a moment,

52:02

as if the corona craze were not

52:04

enough, nobody comes up with yet another

52:07

viral dessert, a cookie

52:09

shot. Stay with us. I'm Guy

52:11

Roz, and you're listening to How I Built This. On

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54:38

I've made a episode so far as was

54:40

Joe Clark and Kodiak Cakes, mostly

54:42

because I like the product, but to

54:44

hearing how he stuck with it for

54:46

so many years, and then when he

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made it big, he still gave

54:50

his brother half the company back. You

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can tell that he is a very

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kind person, and it's wonderful

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55:28

so much, we love you guys, you're the best.

55:31

And now, back to the show. Hey,

55:47

welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So

55:49

it's 2013, and Dominique and his team are

55:52

learning to cope with the soaring

55:55

success of the cronut and the

55:57

nonstop feeding frenzy outside their bake-sauce.

56:01

I mean with just that

56:03

size of kitchen, I mean was there a

56:05

point where you just said you know what

56:07

we better just only make cronuts for the

56:10

next several months and that's it. Do you

56:12

answer your question? No. I

56:15

always told myself very early on I don't

56:17

want my creation to kill my creativity and

56:20

I refuse to turn into a corner shop

56:22

and to do the only thing. A lot

56:24

of people came and talked to me about

56:27

like supply and demand and how I should

56:29

like capitalize on the

56:31

idea and open a 100-ton shop

56:33

and I said no. I

56:36

said I'm a chef, I believe in the

56:39

craft. Maybe she'll call

56:41

me stupid or call me innocent

56:43

but I love what I do. I

56:46

cannot, I was the people, my dad worked in

56:48

the factory, I don't want to own the factory

56:50

making the same thing. Every

56:52

day like it was not a

56:55

good thing you know until someone

56:58

reached out to me on

57:00

Twitter and they

57:02

were comparing the corner client to the

57:05

line that people go to to wait

57:07

for food in York City for like

57:09

the food bank. And

57:11

this is when you know when I was like

57:14

hey wait a second like you're right. Maybe

57:16

we can do something with this and turn into

57:18

something good. So I decided very

57:21

early on to be involved with a lot

57:23

of charities to fight against hunger because

57:25

this is something I can kind of like suffer

57:28

from going up and to

57:30

help out. So the first auction we

57:33

did, we went to a

57:35

charity event and we sold 12 cronuts for $100,000. A

57:40

dozen cronuts for $100,000. It

57:44

is crazy, it sounds crazy, it's a

57:46

blessing, it's beautiful and you know

57:49

to be a part of this you feel

57:51

like okay I have a bigger mission here. There's

57:53

something more I can do. And we've

57:56

done it many times again and the

57:58

price went very high and people were like, where we need

58:00

to be just to try the cronut. All

58:04

right. So you, you know, part

58:06

of the frenzy of this time period, lots of

58:08

people coming in saying you're doing it wrong, you

58:10

got to go all cronuts, you're being overwhelmed and

58:12

you got to bake them and you've got angry

58:15

customers and demand. There

58:17

does come a pressing issue comes to your

58:19

attention, which is if you

58:22

don't, if you don't trademark

58:24

this word cronut, you will

58:27

have created this thing and you will not

58:29

control it, you will not be able to

58:31

use that word that you yourself started using.

58:33

I guess somebody, one of your customers, a

58:36

lawyer approached you about this, right? So

58:38

that's right. So it was actually a friend

58:40

of ours who was a lawyer. And

58:43

she saw this very early on. I think it

58:45

was the day like four or five, she came to

58:47

the bakery. She's like, Hey, there should like trademark this

58:50

thing, the cronut. So she

58:52

registered the trademark cronut for

58:55

me. And three or

58:57

four days later, there were like 24,

58:59

25 applications for the same from the

59:01

same mark. Wow. This

59:04

is a this is a yeah, there are a

59:06

lot of scammers who do this. They'll basically trademark

59:08

something that is popular, that is invented by somebody

59:10

else. Yes. There were, you

59:12

know, bakeries who started to use the word cronut

59:14

or they would spell it with a K, cronut.

59:17

And and you guys did go after them.

59:19

I mean, again, some people

59:21

might say, Oh, why is, you know, this successful

59:24

Dominique Ansel going after these little guys? But you

59:26

also, first of all, we're not a mat. I

59:28

mean, we're a small business. We're

59:30

small too. But the second thing is that

59:33

you felt like there'd be brand confusion, that

59:35

people would be thinking, wait, this cronut I've

59:37

been hearing about New York, I'm

59:40

eating it right now. It's not that great. But

59:42

they might not know that it's like

59:44

they might associate or think it's the same.

59:46

Exactly. That's that's that's that's part of it

59:48

as well. Brand confusion. You

59:50

know, people try to make all the product out

59:53

of it. People try to like resell it and

59:55

make money out of it. Our intention was not

59:57

to be malicious or like to stop everyone from

59:59

like. being creative, our intention was to protect

1:00:01

our mark and once

1:00:03

you register a mark, you have no choice. If

1:00:06

you don't protect it, you just essentially give up

1:00:08

on it and you let everyone use it. By

1:00:11

2013, so by the

1:00:14

end of that year, that you introduced a chronaut, it

1:00:16

was named again, it was named for

1:00:19

the 25 best inventions of the year

1:00:21

by Time magazine. It was

1:00:24

an accident, right? I mean, not an accident, but it

1:00:26

wasn't like you were, from the

1:00:28

story you tell, it's not like, hey,

1:00:30

I'm going to come up with

1:00:32

an invention that's going to revolutionize

1:00:34

pastry that everyone's going to talk

1:00:37

about. That really wasn't how you

1:00:39

were thinking about this initially. No,

1:00:41

it's absolutely not. I think it's

1:00:43

a genuine, innocent, simple, heartfelt story

1:00:45

and even if

1:00:47

you give me all the money of

1:00:49

the world to more, you cannot plan

1:00:52

for this. You cannot expect the same

1:00:54

kind of like frenzy. You cannot like,

1:00:57

you know, inception people into liking the idea

1:00:59

or not. They like it or not for

1:01:02

X, Y, even. Again, for a million reasons,

1:01:04

they went viral. You cannot like

1:01:06

give me all the money of the world

1:01:08

and expect me to recreate something that goes

1:01:10

viral. I have some great ideas for sure.

1:01:13

What goes viral or not, at the end

1:01:15

of the day, it's not me who decides. People.

1:01:17

Yeah, because I mean, a couple of years later,

1:01:19

you would introduce the cookie shot, which is basically

1:01:21

a cookie where you could fill it

1:01:23

up with cream or milk and have a shot

1:01:25

and eat it. And that's very popular, but it

1:01:27

didn't have the same virality as the cronut. Oh,

1:01:30

it went viral. But I think it was

1:01:33

like overwhelmed by the news of the cornet.

1:01:35

So yes, you're right. It's a chocolate chip

1:01:37

cookie shaped as a shot glass. It's a

1:01:39

shot glass. This line was chocolate. Yeah. Yes,

1:01:42

shot glass. And we would serve it warm, a warm cookie

1:01:44

and we pour vanilla infused

1:01:47

milk inside the cookie. So

1:01:49

you drink out of the cookie and then you

1:01:51

eat the cookie. So delicious. So it's a fascinating

1:01:53

idea. You know, like it's it

1:01:55

we we created

1:01:57

for in partnership with the PR

1:02:00

company that was launching

1:02:02

something in South by Southwest.

1:02:04

Yeah. And we brought there,

1:02:06

we're like, oh, it's a cool idea. Let's do

1:02:08

it for this event. And

1:02:11

we were like, oh, we're just going to do it for this event. And that's

1:02:13

it. It went viral

1:02:16

right here and there. We had 750 people lining

1:02:18

out outside. I

1:02:22

was like, this is insane. Not even the

1:02:24

cornet that we created. It's something else that

1:02:26

we're bringing. And the demand was so insane

1:02:28

that we had to put it on the

1:02:30

menu when we came back. So

1:02:33

we were only at the

1:02:35

time saving the cookie shot after 3 PM.

1:02:38

Wow. The reason why is because

1:02:41

our line was so long in the morning that

1:02:43

we couldn't have the ball line and

1:02:47

all these lines of people coming for our

1:02:49

pastry. So we decided to do it after

1:02:51

school snack. We decided to

1:02:53

do it after 3 PM. Dominique,

1:02:55

I want to go back to this idea of, I

1:02:57

understand you do not want to be a cronut factory. And

1:03:01

I think it speaks to your integrity. And it's

1:03:03

a very, by the way, it's a very French

1:03:05

and European notion of just

1:03:07

like, look, I want to make the

1:03:09

best product. I don't care about maximizing

1:03:12

profits. But now you are in America,

1:03:14

and you are an American entrepreneur. And

1:03:16

not to say that America is greedy.

1:03:19

I became American a few years ago. I'm very proud of

1:03:21

it. But I

1:03:23

mean, just from a sustainability standpoint,

1:03:26

I mean, I imagine

1:03:28

there were people saying to

1:03:30

you, you have to, this

1:03:33

is the golden ticket, Dominique.

1:03:35

Like, you struggled. You

1:03:37

had no money. You grinded away to

1:03:40

build this business. And

1:03:42

now you have an opportunity

1:03:44

to make tens of millions

1:03:46

of dollars on this

1:03:48

product. You need to strike while the iron

1:03:50

is hot. And your answer was

1:03:52

still no. I

1:03:55

think it's a different approach. I think you

1:03:57

have to figure it like, can

1:03:59

I? And I opened a hundred shops

1:04:01

tomorrow and find the money for it? Easily.

1:04:05

Easily. Is this what I want to

1:04:07

do today? Not

1:04:10

necessarily. I don't want

1:04:12

to run a factory, you know,

1:04:14

producing like a million cornet every day

1:04:16

and ship it further around the world.

1:04:19

I don't believe in that. And I think

1:04:21

I get it because they don't... Right.

1:04:25

It wouldn't be the same experience with a customer either. You

1:04:28

did, I mean, you did start to...with the

1:04:30

success of the bakery, it made sense for

1:04:32

you to open a larger

1:04:34

facility and then starting around

1:04:37

2015, you began to...or you

1:04:40

decided that

1:04:44

you will try to bring the

1:04:46

Dominique Anselbakery to other locations. You

1:04:48

opened a location in

1:04:51

Japan, in Tokyo... That's right. ...in 2015.

1:04:54

And tell me the thinking behind it. And

1:04:57

how resistant you were to overexpand or

1:05:00

to expand. Well,

1:05:02

it's a different kind of expansion, right? I think

1:05:04

the idea was to bring a

1:05:06

New York bakery and elevate it and bring

1:05:08

it to Japan. Yeah.

1:05:10

It's like I was in love with the idea. I

1:05:12

was like, I thought, you know, it would be

1:05:15

like a great thing. So I knew it was. It

1:05:17

was this place was so busy. We

1:05:19

opened with another like 750 people online. Wow.

1:05:23

It was like five to six hour wait

1:05:25

line just to get into the bakery out

1:05:27

opening. It was just insane.

1:05:30

And this was a big shop. You

1:05:32

have a hundred employees there. I mean, this was

1:05:34

this begins a period where like Tokyo,

1:05:36

a hundred employees. Then you open London,

1:05:39

a bakery there. And

1:05:43

then you would go on to...you go

1:05:46

on to Los Angeles and then

1:05:48

you expanded the location, a location in New York.

1:05:50

I mean, all of a

1:05:52

sudden you're building an empire, whether

1:05:55

you want to or not. How

1:05:57

did you manage that in your head? had

1:06:00

the teams in New York that you could see

1:06:02

physically, but then you had all these, and now

1:06:04

you've got employees all around the world. Was

1:06:09

that exciting to you, or did that become overwhelming?

1:06:11

Did that feel overwhelming? I

1:06:13

felt stressed out for sure. I never felt too

1:06:15

overwhelmed. I think

1:06:18

it's it. You know, every business has had

1:06:20

like local partners. Yeah, you know, I can't

1:06:22

do it by myself. I have an amazing

1:06:24

team behind me. And the best

1:06:27

person, you know, it's my wife today, the one

1:06:29

that believed in me from the beginning. She runs

1:06:31

the business with you. She runs

1:06:33

the business, she runs everything I cannot run.

1:06:35

So she takes care of, you know, all

1:06:38

the business side, the legal side, the front

1:06:40

of the house side, and every other aspect

1:06:43

that I don't She's

1:06:45

the brains. She's the brains behind the operation.

1:06:47

You're the muscle. She's the brains. Yeah, she's

1:06:49

a brain under heart. And

1:06:51

I'm the most fortunate man in the world, you

1:06:53

know, to have someone like this to support me.

1:06:56

Yeah. As you

1:06:58

started to expand, right? So

1:07:00

London, and then Los Angeles,

1:07:03

and then a full service

1:07:05

restaurant in Los Angeles, too. And

1:07:08

then bakeries in Hong Kong. First

1:07:10

of all, how did you control quality? I mean,

1:07:14

how could you make sure that people were going into the

1:07:16

London shop or the LA shop or the Hong Kong shop

1:07:18

or even the Tokyo shop and they're walking out and saying,

1:07:21

Oh, the hype is right. We have high,

1:07:23

very high standards in terms of quality of

1:07:25

production. And we have a lot of system

1:07:28

in place to make sure we

1:07:30

control the quality. And the

1:07:32

team will go through a testing every

1:07:34

single day. So they'll pick one pastry,

1:07:37

one drink, and one other item. So

1:07:39

they will test among themselves and send

1:07:41

a report on quality. So we can

1:07:43

see the photo. I can

1:07:45

just, you know, just looking at a cross section

1:07:47

of a cross I can tell you if it

1:07:50

was back properly, if it was poof properly, if

1:07:52

there's an issue with the baking, if there's an

1:07:54

issue with the fermentation, I can pinpoint this by

1:07:56

just again photo because you know, been doing this

1:07:58

my whole life. And this

1:08:01

system of checks and balances

1:08:03

help us control quality

1:08:05

at the highest level possible. All

1:08:08

right. Let's talk about COVID because

1:08:10

COVID is the beginning

1:08:12

of, I think, a

1:08:16

sort of a retrenchment, right? COVID, a reset.

1:08:20

It's a reset. I call it a big reset

1:08:22

for everyone. Because obviously these

1:08:25

restaurants were massively affected

1:08:27

by the closures. And

1:08:29

in the first, I think, the first closures, you

1:08:31

decide to close the restaurant and bakery in L.A.

1:08:35

And over the next two years, you

1:08:38

would begin to really close

1:08:40

down London and then Tokyo

1:08:43

and really

1:08:47

just kind of make things

1:08:49

a bit smaller, eventually Hong Kong. I

1:08:52

wonder whether, you

1:08:55

know, there's multiple ways,

1:08:57

right, to think about a business. And

1:09:00

there was a point where you had

1:09:02

six, seven locations around the world. And

1:09:05

clearly, if COVID didn't happen, you

1:09:07

might have 15 now, right? And

1:09:10

that might be a good thing. But

1:09:12

it also with that comes a different

1:09:14

level of stress and a different kind

1:09:16

of business. And it doesn't always mean

1:09:19

it's a healthy business. Like, I think now,

1:09:21

right now today, you are

1:09:23

a profitable business, right? Yeah,

1:09:26

we're very good, actually. Like, we're a

1:09:28

profitable business. Like, we're healthy, you know?

1:09:31

We still have

1:09:33

growth, which is good. It's

1:09:35

true. Having, like, many different

1:09:37

locations comes more stress, more

1:09:40

worry, more, like, you

1:09:42

know, diluting your time and

1:09:44

you focus on things. Sure.

1:09:47

But I think, like, if

1:09:49

every good business is the most important is

1:09:51

to surround yourself and build yourself

1:09:53

a team. You can do it alone, no matter what.

1:09:55

From day one, you know, I couldn't do it alone.

1:09:57

I thought I could do it alone. I

1:10:00

would have never make it without

1:10:03

my partner, without my wife. Today,

1:10:05

you've got two locations in New

1:10:07

York, one in Las Vegas, and

1:10:12

it's a... obviously, you've got a

1:10:14

mail order business. When you

1:10:16

think about where you are

1:10:18

and where you started, working

1:10:21

class family, not a family

1:10:24

that... not a life where you were going

1:10:26

to imagine being in New York, being

1:10:29

a famous pastry chef. You

1:10:32

built this amazing brand, and I

1:10:34

wonder how much of where

1:10:36

you are today, you attribute

1:10:38

to just the hard work you

1:10:40

put in, which was really hard, three in the morning until

1:10:42

11 at night for years. And

1:10:45

how much of what happened do you think happened

1:10:47

because you got lucky? You just... it was luck

1:10:49

and chance and fate. I mean, I

1:10:51

think luck is part of it, for sure. It's

1:10:54

not the main thing. I

1:10:57

think you have to try, you have to dare. Like, someone

1:11:00

asked me once, would you have done this if you

1:11:02

were in France? I told them, probably not. Yeah.

1:11:05

New York is a very open-minded city that I would

1:11:07

like to explore. So don't

1:11:09

you give them good food at fair price and

1:11:12

your respect to customers, like, they will

1:11:14

come back to you, they will let you try, they will give you

1:11:16

a chance. I don't think I would have done this in

1:11:19

France. Yeah, I was lucky. I

1:11:21

was lucky, I thought of the idea. I was

1:11:23

lucky I tried, I was lucky I worked hard

1:11:25

for it, I was lucky I met my wife,

1:11:27

I was lucky for a lot of

1:11:29

things, sure. And good things happen to you. That's

1:11:33

Dominique Ansel, founder of Dominique

1:11:35

Ansel Bakery. By the way,

1:11:37

Dominique is still tinkering with new ideas

1:11:39

in this bakery every day, including one

1:11:41

that has kind of a Willy Wonka

1:11:43

feel. I want people

1:11:45

to eat desserts with like zero

1:11:48

gravity. Do you want people

1:11:50

to eat desserts in zero gravity or do you

1:11:52

want people to feel like they are in zero

1:11:54

gravity when they eat desserts? Oh, I don't know,

1:11:56

I want them to be in zero gravity in

1:11:59

desserts. Oh, in space. Somehow, or like I

1:12:01

like it on an airplane that just dives

1:12:03

and you go into zero gravity or cookie

1:12:05

shots But the the milk from the cookie

1:12:07

shots gonna be coming out of the cookie.

1:12:10

It's in zero gravity You

1:12:12

see like you're twisting differently Oh be did

1:12:15

by then by the time you build like

1:12:17

zero gravity chamber I will

1:12:19

have been I will have created like a lot

1:12:21

of ideas of deserves that you can think of

1:12:23

eating yet like a Marshmallowy thing that comes out

1:12:25

and you just like eat it in

1:12:28

zero gravity is that floats out? I

1:12:30

got you I got you excited with the idea I'm

1:12:33

in Hey,

1:12:36

thanks so much for listening to the show this

1:12:38

week Please make sure to click the follow button

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insights and ideas from some of the world's greatest

1:12:51

Entrepreneurs this episode was produced

1:12:53

by Carla Estes with music composed

1:12:55

by Rontine Arab Louie It

1:12:58

was edited by Niva Grant research

1:13:00

help from Catherine Seifer and audio

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engineering by Robert Rodriguez and placey

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Lee Also

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includes Casey Herman Casey Howard

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Alex Chung John Isabella Elaine

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Coates Kerry Thompson and Christmas

1:13:13

E me I'm Guy

1:13:15

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