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Seth Well hey there everybody this is another bonus episode kind of one of my episodes where I just catch up with a previous guest and talk about something they've been doing lately or a cool project that they've that they've finished or embarked upon and so this time I'm catching up with J W ortic J.W. Hello How's going. Seth Good to have you on I think the last time I had you on was for the Ladyhawke panel? J.W. That sounds correct which was a lot of fun. Seth Yeah that that was fun. Yeah, um, but something that you've been working through for a while is is reading all the Hugos but not just all the Hugos. All the Hugo nominees as well. Um, and ah and you finished that I don't know a couple months ago? J.W. Actually it may have been late last year I don't remember exactly what day it was but ah yes, every single nominee. Seth Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then so on your blog which will we'll make sure people have ah a link to you've been doing you kind of my read through of the Hugos right? and you'll do a year and talk about give letter grades to each of the the nominees. J.W. Yeah, yeah, so I kind of just decided to do that because you know there's always the question as a fan of did they get it right? you know or or obviously everyone has their own opinions. So I just wanted to give a score and hopefully kind of direct other people who have similar interests to find. Some of those diamonds in the rough, especially some some of the older Hugo nominees that might not be read. You know people might not know as much about anymore. Seth Yeah, it's it's interesting to when you go back if you go back far enough. You can find the winner but you can't find anything about the nominees and that's a little frustrating sometimes. Seth And and now your you're working your way through the Nebulas as well have you finished the Nebulas? J.W. Yes. I've read all of the Nebula winners now. Um as far as the nominees I haven't really done it count I think I'm there's a lot of overlap between the two So I think I'm in the like 40 to 60% range on those um I had kind of started that during the Hugo process to just as ah, a break I guess once a while. Seth yeah yeah yeah I had noticed at some point when I finished the the list of Hugos and I switched over to the Nebula list just to see where am I on this and it's essentially 50% I had read a couple of the others that that weren't Hugo winners. J.W. Yeah. Seth Um, but. It's a pretty good jump on that list and that's that was one reason I was like I don't want to just jump over to another list and have to work my way through you know 30 or 40 titles. So that's why I extend it it to all the other lists though I would like to finish the the Nebula one just because, there's a discord that we're both on ah for for readers of the Nebulas and the Hugos and you get special gloss if you ah finish either or both of the lists. So. J.W. It was ah a proud moment in my life when I you know got the what what are they calling it now. The Space Magus or something like that to to have finished them all. Um you know I I want to try to get to like the British Science Fiction Award and I mean there's a bunch of them obviously Arthur C Clark or Aurora. Mm. Seth Mm, yes. J.W. Some of the ones that kind of branch out more from the very American Centric you know Hugo so. Seth Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, so but I guess um, one of the questions that always comes up is is how do you do this? You know how? how do you get through so many books and how many books did you read last year J.W. I think I hit right at seven hundred last year Seth Um, and and when I tell people that if they just go. Yeah well he's lying. J.W. Ah, yeah, that's um I actually I get that too. Um, people at work though can attest to this I mean when I when I go on my break and my lunch at work. There's always a book in hand you know sometimes even as I'm walking to my locker to put the book away. J.W. But yeah I I do get asked that question a lot. How do you read so much and I was talking about this with my my wife actually like how do I even answer this because I I guess my my first answer is always kind of like I don't know I just I just read. It's just what I like to do and she's like she's like that kind of is the answer you know, like other people have hobbies, like I have friends who like Warhammer and they paint the minis and they spend you know 7 hours on their weekend and it's like I don't do that I do all that time is spent reading books and reading books is the kind of thing that you can do alongside other hobbies or other tasks. Seth Yeah. J.W. You know like when I, I like to ride my bike or run. So I listen to audiobooks while I'm doing that. Um, when I'm doing the dishes on my day off you know when I'm doing cleaning I'm listening to audiobooks so it's like you don't even necessarily have to stop what you're doing to read or listen to books you you can do other things and I know this sounds. Seth Yeah. J.W. I think my neighbors probably think I'm crazy because one thing I like to try to do every day is at least get to the 10000 steps you know that sort of myth of staying healthy with 10000 steps but um and I'll literally walk in my living room in circles with a book in my hand while I'm like reading the book and turning the pages. So. Seth Mm, yeah, yeah. J.W. Um I Guess there's a lot of answers. But really it it kind of it just comes down to that's that's what brings joy to my life is reading books and experiencing these stories and so I spend a lot of time doing it. Seth Yeah, yeah, and I mean I used to ah I remember when when the the Harry Potter books were still coming out right? They like the last couple of them you know or I'd pre-order it and as soon as it would get there I'd like I don't want to work today I want I want to read the book you know and um I know that the Harry Potter books have fallen out of favor for some good reasons. Um, but. J.W. Yep. Seth But it didn't change the fact that they were enjoyable reads at the time and I remember I work at a big campus and of 5 buildings and a conference center and so if you walk around the outside of it. It's it's about a mile and so I would just I'd walk around with this big hardcover. J.W. Right. Seth On the sidewalks and just every now and then glance up make sure I'm not going to run into anything. Um, but and you know you can get it so where your field of view is is good enough to see if you're going to walk into a tree or a person. So yeah. J.W. Yeah, absolutely And and I'm I'm glad I'm not the only one because people always tell me I'm crazy when I do that because like I've I've done walks around my block like with ah book in hand and things like that and I'm like I'm sure people think I look really weird, but it's just something I enjoy doing other people you know, walk their dogs and I walk my book. So. Seth Yeah, you don't have to pick up after your books. So and you know there I Definitely do similar things where where like I'm out gardening you know, pulling Weeds or something I've got an audio book going right? and and and walking the dog. It's usually audio books as well. J.W. Yep. Seth And this is one of one of your other secrets of how you get but through books so fast is you're a fast audiobook listener. J.W. Yeah, it was actually because of the hugo quest that I started to kind of ratchet up the speed for a long time. You know, just at one time speed on all audiobooks and then it was actually I remember the book it was that started to push me towards it which was A Time of Changes by Robert Silverberg and there was an audio book at the library system. So I picked it up and I was listening I was like you know this this reader I really enjoyed the reader. Actually it's one of my favorite narrative like narrated books of all time. Um, but it was just kind of slow and so I just titched it up a notch I want to say at 1.2 or something like that. Seth Mm-hmm. J.W. And it sounded so much better and it was actually much more listenable I'll I'll just use that as a word and since then I kind of just kept ratcheting. You know, maybe every six months or so I just ratcheted up just a slight bit more and I just. Seth Um, yeah. J.W. Recently moved it up to and now granted some readers are faster. So I I tone it back down if they're speaking really quickly because it just gets to be sort of chipmunkey. Um, but I'm usually hitting like that 2.85 or so speed now. Seth Wow J.W. So so I mean like a 21 hour book is going to take you you know 7 and 40 minutes or something like that. Which um, you know I wouldn't recommend it as much for like nonfiction. Seth Um, yeah, yeah. J.W. But for fiction it's it's pretty easy to follow conversations because we don't we don't talk at the speed people narrate books right? like when you listen to audiobooks. To me sometimes some of them at one time speed are painfully slow Seth Um, agreed. J.W. And so ratcheting it up just makes sense to me to make it sort of more pleasant anyway. Seth Yeah, yeah, so when when I found this out. Ah I I have generally stuck at 1.5, 1.6. For podcasts is 1.5 all the time unless it's like Dan Carlin's Hardcore History and then it's like 3, two and a half three times because he's so slow. Um, and the episodes are 4 hours long sometimes. Um but I I started creeping it up and just like well what? what's it like at 1.75 and and you're right? It does depend on the narrator where there there's sometimes where I'm like okay I'm not I'm not getting this or you know this is the problem with audiobooks if your mind wanders a little bit. J.W. Yes. Seth You know you can you can miss quite a bit and it's it's harder to page backwards I know you can jump back 30 seconds but it's not the same as like turning a page backwards in a book. J.W. No, it is harder to to re-pick up that trail if you get lost on it. Seth But but yeah, so so I've I've kind of stuck it to X speed and I'm finding that it works quite well for almost every book. So I don't I don't know that I'll push on. We'll see once once things lock in and and and I'm acclimated to it. We'll see because yeah, there's times where like on my podcast player. Um the plugin in the in the player that allows the modified speed crashes and it dumps me back to 1.0 speed and everybody sounds so weird because because it's like your brain has gotten used to taking up the information at that speed. J.W. Um, right. Seth And so you're like this isn't how people really sound is it I feel like the Flash you know like everything's going by like molasses. So. J.W. Yeah, yeah, I've definitely I've I think it was at Worldcon in Chicago where I talked to some people that I'd only listened to on podcast before which again it was like. 1.5 or 2.5 times speed I'd heard them and I was like oh this is like their actual voice. This is what they sound like in real life. Seth Um, the crazy thing for me is when people have music and I only ever hear it at one and half speed and then I hear it normally I'm like that's jarring it sounds completely different. J.W. Oh yeah, yeah, like intro music or something. Yeah. Seth Yeah I mean you you do get and you've seen this right? where people are like, "Well I like to savor books you know," so and and it's I understand there are people who are not going to like faster speeds in in audio I Want to I want to take it in the way that the creator you know, intended it. But. I Just feel like you know let people do things the way they do and don't tell them that they're not. They're not getting the same experience of the book as you which to be fair, you're not everybody nobody ever reads the same book. So yeah. J.W. Right? Yeah I would I would definitely agree with that. You know one thing that I think I've had people just talking about people at work or other people interested in reading you know, be like Wow you read so much I feel guilty. It's like why would you feel guilty like read at the pace you want to read read it What you want to read and there are books that I do way slow down and savor I mean one way I read a lot of books is by reading lots of books at the same time I literally have a stack of like 20 books sometimes where I'm reading a chapter a day and I'll do each one alongside library books and things that I'm reading that sort of more project type things and some of those.? Seth Um, yeah I call that shift reading. J.W. Yeah yeah, and some of those you know, Mm. Like right now I'm rereading The Will of the Many by what I always want to say Jason but I think it's James Islington, came out last year and it was I loved it and I wanted to really sit down and savor it more so I've been reading like literally just one chapter a day and just very slowly these like 10 to 15 page chapters. So you know. Seth Mm. J.W. The experience may vary and it will vary like you said even from time to time rereading the same book. You're going to have a different experience of that book. Seth yeah yeah um yeah I definitely I pick my spots where I really want to savor something and you know I still read and it's a pretty good I think I think I've I've increased my audio uptake um, just because it's convenient and and so like when the Hugo nominees came out you know I immediately went to Libby and put hold requests on all the audiobooks for everything that I could find J.W. Um, yep. Seth Actually I did it when the Nebulas came out figuring that there would be some overlap and there were only a couple J.W. Oh that's a good idea. Seth But yeah that that helps me kind of get through being able to keep up a little bit with at least like the voting for this year J.W. Yeah. Seth Yeah so you know why? why did you set out to read the Hugos where did that come from? J.W. So I know this sounds crazy because the internet obviously existed but I didn't think about looking more um I for a long time as a reader. Um, even through like college. The only Science Fiction I'd really read was like Star Wars Books Um, and I just knew. Seth Um, oh similar with me. Yeah, and similar story for me. Yeah. J.W. Was that oh yeah, and so I just knew that I enjoyed the idea of Science Fiction I just didn't really know where to go for it I'd also read Ender's Game in high school and was a fan of that and I'd read. Dune in college because it was one that I just heard lots of people talking about and I quite enjoyed that but I was like well where do I go from here and um, you know in my younger years I'd read some Ben Bova and stuff. So just a smattering but mostly Star Wars and so I kind of just like googled at one point like you know list of best Science Fiction novels and there was this one. Seth Mm. J.W. It still exists I think it's called ah sci-fi lists. It's like sffjazz dot something dot com or something like that and he has Seth Um, if you find it send it to me. J.W. Yeah yeah, he has these um I mean you can tell the website was made in the 90 s it's it's definitely like a bare bones just text and links. But it's basically like people would go and I think the only way he ranks them is just by having people you know vote on them and then it just ranks them in the top hundred or top 200 and he's recently split it. So it's by like decades or something like that. But um, back then when I first got to the site I just read the first two hundred books on the list and it took me I don't know. 3 or 4 years to to track them all down through interlibrary loan and that kind of thing but that really sort of broadened my taste and one thing I kept seeing and then I remember seeing on Ender's Game was this Hugo Award stamp on so many books like winner the Hugo Award you know this author won the Hugo Award and I was like what what even is this and got a book from the library Jo Walton the oh shoot. What is that called Seth Um, the informal history. Yeah. J.W. The informal history. Yeah of the Hugos and which is ah a great book. Especially I think for fans of the genre like you're going to get a ton of information and knowledge not just about the Hugo Awards but also um I mean she just has a huge knowledge of the field in so many ways and and it's very fun to just hear her voice speaking to you through the book but she didn't read all of the nominees and was like what the heck why? Why wouldn't you read all the nominees when you're talking about them all and I mean she has some really good reasons for doing So um, but I was like I could do that I could read every nominee and so I just did I just kind of sat down and you know I went to the library system and I started to like write down all the ones that they had in a spreadsheet and the ones they didn't have I started to just get them through interlibrary loan and over the I think I started trying to read all the Hugo nominees in like 2014-2015, somewhere around there and only just finished like I said either late last year or early this year so I mean it took took some time to get through them all I finally counted them this morning. Actually there's 361 now with all the new ones. Seth Okay I was going to ask you that. J.W. Unless I miscounted so someone can come along and correct me and those are again are the ones that are known. We do have like you said I want to say it's 1955 or something like that. We're like the nominee list is very partial. Um I think we know of like one other nominee which I have read. But Mm. Seth Um, yeah. J.W. When you look on Wikipedia there aren't any other nominees but the winner that year and um, so ah, some of those might be lost to time but of the ones that are known and confirmed I've read all of them. Seth Okay, nice. It's yeah I mean talking about the ah the the stamps on the books right? Hugo winning book right? Ah, people always you know, especially after last year with with the stuff that happened in Chengdu right? and people want to bury the Hugos and say oh these aren't relevant anymore. But. For authors I mean it's it's a real marketing tool. You know if if you win the Hugo that that has effect on sales. J.W. Oh absolutely and I think I think the average reader like if you walk into a bookstore and you you don't know the context and you just see winner of whatever award that just is going to potentially clue you in you know, then there are people who have the the opposite reaction where they're like I don't want to an award winner that's popular or whatever and that's fine too. but but I think there is still a great value to the Hugos and I think you know obviously there is plenty of controversy about last year's but I still think the community that exists around the Hugos and other awards is extremely valuable and honestly super inclusive and fun to be part of um and definitely helpful helpful to the authors like ah you know obviously again, you can talk about last year we we do multiple podcasts about last year but when it comes down to it I Still think most authors would say it's valuable to have them exist and to have them. JW Ah just awards in general to have that spotlight and I and if I could go on a quick aside? Seth Um, yeah, go for it. J.W. I'm a judge in the self-published Science Fiction contest. SPSFC. So we call it spacefi for short and that's only we've only done 3 years um but let me tell you the amount of readers that have popped up on some of these indie authors who some of the books we've had submitted where they have literally 0 reviews on Amazon or or one review on Goodreads or something like that and some of these books that are actually quite excellent and and entertaining and so being able to shine the spotlight on these authors is just a phenomenal opportunity. Not just for readers but also for them and I think the Hugo is just sort of that you know on the much bigger scale. Seth Yeah, yeah, yeah, that reminds me I was talking to my brother-in-law yesterday and somebody that we used to work with just published a book. He'd been working on for like 10 years and I was like oh I should I should tell JW about it because it was self-published. J.W. Ah, yeah, send it to me. Seth Um, yeah, yeah, definitely. Um so I mean has it been worth it? Reading all the the Hugos, was that was there anything that broke you that that was like I don't know if this is worth it now and and and you know I You know my podcast right? I I don't tend to dwell on the negative and so if you don't want a bad mouth any books or say oh this was a terrible winner. Um, that's fine If you you know, a more positive way to say that is I would have preferred this winner this year but um you know if you want to bag on something then feel free. J.W. Ah, um, so I mean the first thing that came in mind when you asked the question that way is actually funny to me because Robert Silverberg um I read Dying Inside from that original list of like top 200 books and I hated it I absolutely detested that book. Seth Hm. J.W. And so on the Hugos he was nominated I want to say 11 times or something like that and he never won for best novel and I was like man I don't know if I want to read anymore of this guy's books after I hated that one um but it honestly ended up being the exact opposite where I found. Seth Mm. J.W. Ah deep love and appreciation of Silver Bird's novels and I do think some of them are still stinkers. But that's going to be true for anyone's writing and in fact I I have now read Dying Inside 3 times and I finally got it on the third time my dad passed in 2020 and that gave some context to Dying Inside because I never realized how much about loss it was before um and it's just a really beautiful look at a sort of crappy human dealing with a sense of like impending loss and struggling through that in a very real way. J.W. And so ah I think did you tack on the question of which ones I think should have won? Seth Um, I Definitely do want to get to that at some point. J.W. Sure. Um, but yeah, as far as far as being broken I think there were I could definitely list like some books where I was just like oh gosh, why am I doing this or I am a huge victim of the sunk cost fallacy once I start a book I Pretty much will finish even if I hate everything about it. Um, because I've already started I may as well continue. Seth Right? yeah. J.W. Um, and so there was basically no point where I was about to give up this quest for the Hugo nominees they you know it could have all been horrible and I would have done it one way or another. But um, I'm honestly super glad I did because I said Silverberg's just one example of reading an author that I never ever would have touched before like there wouldn't have been any you know people that I wouldn't have known existed without trying to go through a list like this. So. Seth Okay, so I often get the question I know when I did my kind of ask me anything people asked variations of you know, have you learned anything through this process about the the way the Hugo Awards have changed or the way the genre has changed and and I'm curious if you've had any. Ah. Epiphanies about that. J.W. Yeah I was I was thinking about this after I finished the quest actually and you know obviously some during it and I'm by no means an expert in the history of Science Fiction. There are experts in the history of Science Fiction and so I would kind of leave that to them. Seth Yeah. J.W. I would say for one thing though I really wish that we had more history of Science Fiction books out there. There aren't that many? um and it's it's truly fascinating because Science Fiction in my opinion at least at its best isn't about some imagined future or trying to predict some future. Seth Mm. J.W. Really, it's about the human condition and about what we're dealing with now and how we might be able to deal with it either in the future or in an imagined alternate now. Um, and so for me as far as things that I learned I learned a lot of names of authors that I didn't know before. But. Seth Mm. J.W. But you know, New Wave Science Fiction was something I didn't know existed and obviously it sort of took over the Hugo awards for a decade and seeing this sort of transition between from this sort of like pulp era Science Fiction where it was. It was largely. A lot of sort of rocket ships and lasers and and there were yeah there were things outside of that too. But that was sort of the the majority and into this being aware of the literary conventions and being aware of social sciences and being aware of psychology and integrating those things into Science Fiction in new imaginative and sometimes pretty rough ways. Um, so so watching some of these decades waves of how Science Fiction reflected the sort of ah feeling of the time in which it was published was was really enlightening and um I've talked before about the 90s, too, the 90s if you look at the the Hugo nominees for the 90 s it's. Dominated by hard Science Fiction. Seth Um, right, the Mars books. Yeah. J.W. You know what was happening during the 90s you know, like you know we had. We had the resurgence of interest in NASA I mean I remember as a kid all this NASA stuff and explore space and you know like all these movements going with that and and suddenly hard Science Fiction. It just. I mean there are years where like 4 out of 5 nominees could be easily classified as heart sci-fi um so that would be I guess something I would say I learned too is just seeing how sort of the general tenor of the time impacted the awards I think it's It's pretty clear sometimes. Seth So I kind of have two related questions right? like are there any years where you feel like oh the voters got this one obviously wrong. Um and kind of tied together with are there any favorite reads of yours among the non-winners and so you know there's there's the I really enjoyed that but I don't think it should have won kind of thing right? You can You can definitely have a favorite read among the non-winners and not think that it necessarily should have won but you know there's some nuance there. J.W. yeah yeah I mean I guess there are two ways to approach that to you because you know when you say what could have or should have won that didn't ah, if you include things that weren't nominated I mean looking back. It's much easier like hindsight is 20/20 right like Seth Mm, yeah. J.W. Fellowship of the Ring right? Fellowship of the Ring wasn't even nominated for the 1955 ballot which is famously allegedly the worst Hugo winner of all time. They'd Rather Be Right? which I know you've you've talked about and neither one of us thinks it's actually that bad I I kind of just feel sort of milk toast about it. It's fine. Mm. Seth Right J.W. But the Fellowship of the Ring like you know, um, not even not even there as a chance and so looking in hindsight it's easy to point to that and be like no way and but I think that there's even there's other egregious um misses on far as far as the ballot like Octavia Butler never was nominated for best novel and I think that anyone would be remiss to not list her as maybe the top 5 Science Fiction novelists of you know that century. Seth Mm, yeah. J.W. Um, and so just seeing her not get a nomination I think is is a huge miss especially because some of the years I want to say it was like Parable the Sower, Parable of the Talents where I was like this easily would have won as far as ah on its own merits. But as you said you know taste is its own thing. Some people will like books. Some people won't and and that's okay, um, as far as years where I think that it was wrong. If I had to choose a single year I would say 1973 um that year The Gods Themselves won which is by Asimov obviously super popular author, one of the names that instantly comes to mind when you think about Science Fiction but not one of his best novels in my opinion. Ah, very readable, fairly enjoyable, um, overall novel but it was up against not one but two Silverberg books which I actually thought are are significantly better. Um Book of Skulls. It would be sort of like the dark horse candidate. Um, it's also has some very. J.W. It's it's just a very dark themed story of a road trip across the United States to try to discover immortality with a group of monks that has published this Book of Skulls basically saying that they have the secret to immortality and it goes south literally and figuratively very quickly. Mm. And it's just so viscerally powerful as a read. Um I can still sort of imagine scenes and feel them in my head when I think about them in both good and sometimes even disgusting ways. Um whereas ah that year also had Dying Inside on the ballot now. I don't know how many in fact, I think this is the I think 73 was the only year that an author had two books officially on the ballot I believe that it's happened before where they withdrew one of them and so it doesn't show up anymore. Seth Mm. J.W. But Silverberg actually had both of these books on the ballot and they didn't have the ranked choice voting back then as far as I know so um Dying inside to me was the the clear and obvious winner and as I've already talked about just a tremendous novel about just human nature and loss and suffering in a way that I think very few novels in general not just Science Fiction have grasped that feel for me. So. That would be the year Seth That's interesting though because you you said you kind of bounced off that one the first time where where and so I wonder if that was that explains why it didn't win. J.W. I did I did and so yeah I mean if I had if I had a guess and again I'm I'm not a historian of the Hugos or by any stretch my guess would be that Silverberg probably would have won that year but having two novels on it just split the votes for him in ah in a way that just didn't help him and I just think it's really unfortunate because there there are other years where he had books on the ballot where I was like that easily could have won because they were really good. Seth Mm. J.W. He has some really excellent stories A Time of Changes is what I mentioned earlier with the audiobooks and I just I love that book. So um I guess to segue into that from ah to the second question you had which is the the favorite reads among non-winners. Um, there are so many you know I I kind of thinking about it. It's like you know do I pick a top 20 um, but narrowing it down ah Brittle Innings by Michael Bishop that would be definitely a top 5 for me I know that I believe you enjoyed that one quite a bit as well. Seth I haven't read it yet. Yeah, so don't don't don't spoil it too much I read like the first chapter and then I stopped just because I have a guest in mind for it and I don't want to jinx it not that I believe in Jinxes but. J.W. Um, oh okay, no so okay perfect. Well I will not spoil spoil anything of the ending or or anything but essentially on its face is just it's just a novel about baseball and I want to say it's in Oklahoma in the 1940s and so. Issues of race issues of gender that you would imagine would come up in such a time and place they do um but ah, having played a lot of baseball in my life and loving baseball like I do um Michael Bishop absolutely captures the feel of being on a baseball diamond and in ways that even novels that are just about baseball haven't done like I could there were times where I felt like I could literally breathe in the dust from that baseball diamond It was so vivid and it is also a Science Fiction novel and very much so at some point Seth Mm. J.W. So um I really hope you enjoy it. It's such a treat and ah to me one of the best Hugo nominations just in general. It's I love that book. Seth Yeah, yeah, nice I mean you you know that I'm a huge baseball fan as well. And so so I I I like in the in the spring and summer to read a baseball book and so Brittle Innings was probably going to be the one that I do this year J.W. Um, yes, yes, so Brittle Innings will be an excellent choice for you. Um, so another one that comes to mind. It actually has multiple titles but The Planet Buyer by Cordwainer Smith it's more familiarly known as Norstrilla which is like Australia but north combined. Cordwainer Smith is a pseudonym and I now I forget what the guy's original name was but ah the actual person he was like an expert in psychological warfare. He had multiple you know languages under his belt and all these things sort of get integrated into his Science Fiction stories. He has a bunch of Science Fiction short stories and this one novel that are all in the same general universe over the course of like I want to say over 1000 years um and they're so they're so zany I mean we're talking like they use sheep and psychological warfare together in ways that just it just doesn't seem like it should ever work, especially not in a novel form and it absolutely does. Um, so that would be one I think anyone who's a big fan of Science Fiction especially looking for vintage sci-fi should check out Cordwainer Smith. It's just It's unlike anything I've read anywhere else I mean there there is no equivalent to him in my opinion. Seth Mm, and that one was going up against The Wanderer and it's year terrible. J.W. Um, yeah, and The Wanderer was not a very good book. Um, at least in my opinion I'm sure fans of it exist out there. But I have yet to run into any despite you know, asking many people who who have read it. Um, and then I guess I'll just go with one more I like I said I could probably start listing dozens but another one maybe lesser known would be When Gravity Fails by George Alec Effinger I might be pronouncing that name incorrectly. Seth Mm, yeah. J.W. It's you know one of the big ah foibles of being a reader is that you rarely hear some of these words out loud and especially names so apologies. Seth Right? That's the benefit of audiobooks. J.W. Yes, yes, so apologies if I got that wrong but when gravity fails to me. Um I want to say it was 1988 on the ballot. Um, and it is cyberpunk which is not a favorite subgenre of mine to be honest, but it has a sort of futuristic mystery going On. It has this sort of um issues of gender aren't front and Center. They're just there in ways that feel. Extremely ahead of its time like not directly Trans people but the option of being Trans essentially just exists in this world and is just a given um and the mystery at the heart of the story is absolutely fascinating and and well done. And the voice of the the main character is just it's just so well written I Ah adore it and if you I mean one of my favorite subgenres is just mashing up mystery with any sort of Science Fiction I Just love having that sort of like you know what would they do in this spaceship if a murder happened you know it just. Gives that extra dimension that we can't necessarily get um if it was just a mystery novel or if it was just a Science Fiction novel and Effinger if I'm pronouncing the name right? Just Nails nails that feel and creates ah a world where it just I mean I would love to just live there. Mm. I wouldn't because it's pretty brutal but I would love to see it sometime Seth Yeah, yeah, awesome I think we can get a couple more in J.W. Okay, all right? Well great. Ah, in that case, a favorite of mine. Um, ever since I was a child is Squares of the City that one's by John Brunner or Bruner again. Apologies John Mm. Seth Mm, yeah. J.W. But ah Squares of the City is um, it's not really very spoilery because it's it's in the novel. Um, at the end I think he points this out but the the bare bones of the plot of Squares of The City is that you have ah an American I think he's an American it's been a while now. But he goes to a made up South American country and his job is basically just as a city planner and he's supposed to basically just help figure out some of like the traffic issues in this city and um, this fictional South American country is sort of dominated by like a despotic dictator and. The plot though is actually based upon a rather famous I guess ah chess game and so characters end up being pawns or queens or bishops and being taken off the board in interesting ways now. Not literally taking off the board. There's not like an actual chess board involved. Um, but it's called The Squares of the City and and when you when you think about the plot that way it's it's actually quite amazing to see how he managed to integrate essentially a Science Fiction's narrative over the ah chess game in a way that just really actually works quite well and um is in extremely robust commentary on colonialism um and race and in ways again which seem very ahead of its time I believe that one was from the 1960s I want to say 66. J.W. Um, and I just I love the book I love the cover it grabbed me I saw it a used bookstore when I was maybe like twelve years old and I grabbed it and I read it I did not understand it at all and you know I've read it probably 3 or 4 times since and I just I adore that novel. Um, so. Seth Mm, that's one I had never heard of. J.W. Yeah, it's It's very good and obviously Brunner, he you know is well known for Stand On Zanzabar, The Sheep Look Up, you know so he has quite a few novels under his belt but that one I just almost never see it mentioned and I think like it should be mentioned. It's very good. Um, another one that I would choose would be Calculating God by Robert J Sawyer. Um Robert J Sawyer is sort of hit or miss for me, but he has ah no matter what he's going to give you some pretty good hard Science Fiction combined with usually some sort of like thrilleresque plot. Um Calculating God the premise is basically that aliens show up on Earth. It's just say modern day I want to say it was written in the early 2000s Seth Mm. J.W. So early 2000s Earth, Aliens show up in Canada and instead of saying take me to their leader your leader they say take me to your paleontologist and um, it turns out that these aliens believe in God they just take it for granted that God exists and they're sort of surprised that the paleontologist who's the main character of the story doesn't believe in God. And the reason being basically that they have found that when they look at paleontology they can find that like they and several other alien species including now humans had these sort of like similar intentional disastrous events in their evolutionary past which seem to have tried to set up for intelligent life. Seth Mm. J.W. And so so the premise includes that but then it includes like well is there another doomsday event coming is there actually a God what is this God if there is such a God is it just some being out there and it explores it in ways which I think Science Fiction often asks questions about God and our ultimate existence. But. Um, doesn't always give you answers and Robert J Sawyer is like surprisingly in this book totally unafraid to just provide a really weird and sort of zany answer that I just I just really love it and um, it's another one where I just think like more people should read this book. It's really, it's. Fun and inventive and it asks big questions in ways that you know not a lot of Science Fiction like I said provides answers and he he tries. Seth Right? And unlike The Fountains of Paradise where Arthur C Clarke has an alien probe come through and say hey by the way God's not real. You know. J.W. Right. Yeah, and um, yeah, and we could. We could go off on a huge tangent about that you know Science Fiction and religion and and how they they interact but um and Sawyer as far as I know is not necessarily a friend of religion in general. He's just he's asking some of the big questions and like you know, introducing ways to think about them that you know might make basically anyone upset but at least makes you makes you think. Seth Mm, yeah J.W. And good Science Fiction I think should make you care or concerned about again the human condition and and why are we here? What are we doing? What can we improve? What could we? you know do better. So yeah. Seth Nice, nice talking of Robert J Sawyer I want to give a shout out here to Colin and Phil from the Science Fiction 101 podcast who recently interviewed Robert J Sawyer about his book The Downloaded that dropped as an Audible original before it's come out in print and so they they have. An interview with him about that and then about other things they haven't put out the second half of it yet. But you know it'll come out soon. J.W. Nice and I mean I've been ah I've been Ah, honestly a fan of his works I could there are other books I could put on this list from him he did He did actually win for I Want to say Hominids. Seth Yes J.W. Um and that whole trilogy has been one that I've read and reread from various different lights, You know going from. Um you know someone who didn't really understand science to someone who gets science a lot more has made just a lot of his works much more enjoyable. So ah, but yeah, the Neanderthal Parallax I believe is what that trilogy is called and it's. Seth Yeah yeah I think I've read the first two I haven't I've I've been saving the third one. So. J.W. Yeah, and and those are books that I do when I reread them now I Just savor you know I do read them slowly because it's like I I know what's happening but I like to imagine that Neanderthal world where honestly everything feels kind of just better in so many ways. Ah. Seth Right? right? Yeah I mean it's It's definitely a trope right? where he's He's using this probably over idealized you know perfectly Hunter gatherer balanced. You know, making sure to not reproduce too much just to. Keep under the carrying capacity of the land and that kind of stuff and he's using that to look back at us and go see. Yeah we we could have done that and we didn't. J.W. Right. We we could do a little better and I mean I think some of his answers for why we don't do better are are off base. But I think that you know he's spot on on other things and again, oh. Seth Well and he's He's not afraid in those books either to to say oh and here's the bad part. You know the oh we're going to castrate this guy because he he he struck someone one time you know right? and so he's we we got to weed that you know eugenics kind of out of the out of the population. We can't let him reproduce. J.W. Right? Oh yeah. J.W. Yeah, and and he has sawyer does um other books on the Hugo list where like they are just brutally violent at times and and you know that would be where I would say I kind of bounced off some of this stuff because I I think I don't know why. But as I've gotten older I've gotten more queasy about just in your face. Written violence or or visual violence and and media and stuff and so that can sometimes make me bounce off. But. Seth And I know that The Player of Games was another of your favorites off the non-winners list right? J.W. Ah, yeah but it wasn't nominated Seth It wasn't ok so that was one of your that because we've been going back and forth on emails for months on this and I think I think that was one of the didn't even get a nomination but I love it. J.W. Um yeah yeah so so yeah yeah yeah e and m banks would be you know like I said Octavia Butler to me is the most egregious one that wasn't even nominated. Iain M. Banks has one nomination for Hugo for Best Novel and it was for The Algebraist. Um, which was the first book I read from him and I believe I was in my early 20s then it it absolutely enthralled me. It is a very very good novel and it's stand alone so readers who like stand alone. Um, go get The Algebraist. It's very good. J.W. But yeah Iain M. Banks is like sort of just a huge miss on the Hugos and from what I understand I think we just werere talking about this in that Discord server. But apparently the reason that he didn't end up is because a lot of the novels were only published in the UK for years and so they didn't make it across the pond so to say for years and so they weren't eligible or the eligibility rules hadn't changed yet Seth Mm. J.W. I'm not exactly sure how it works but Player Of Games is definitely I know most people when they talk about The Culture novels novels from Iain M. Banks say that Use Of Weapons is often the favorite of everyone but I love Player Of Games and in part because I think just he has paragraphs in that novel just for fluff like background fluff for this the story or world where I'm like I want to read a whole series about just that. Seth Mm. J.W. Like they're flying over the the planet and I figure which planet they're on but they're flying over any planet and there's like a prison below and they talk about how the people are like incarcerated in the prison and it's almost like this puzzle system and all these things and like I want to read novels set in that prison and figure out you know can someone ever get out of there or why are they there and and but it's just ah, it's just a random paragraph that he just throws away because you know it's just fluff for his story and to me that's not because he's so it's not because he's laissez faire about developing his world. Seth Mm, yeah. J.W. It's because he had so many robust and excellent ideas about how to write so Science Fiction and about how to have these alien cultures and about how to have these totally different worlds that they were just oozing out of every book you read from him where it where it just feels so lived in and real. Um, so yeah, Iain Banks is a big miss as far as never having won and I hope all all listeners please make sure you know you put that? Ah ah, what is it called The Culture book here I have it on my shelf ah Iain M Banks' The Culture The Drawings, best related book they published his. Ah. Basically sketches of Culture novels and things and I think that he you know posthumously deserves this win. So. There's my plug for Iain M Banks. Seth Um, yeah, especially for Glasgow Worldcon. J.W. Yes, yes. Seth So yeah. Cool, um, any other non nominees that you wanted to highlight. J.W. Oh non-nominees. Okay, um, so another book that I think got a nominee that that could have or maybe should have been the winner would be. Year of the Quiet Sun by Wilson Tucker um time travel is a sub-genre of Science Fiction that I love sort of in principle. But I think this is just this is my bias showing I think it's rarely done right? like a lot of times I think that time travel is just using as an excuse either to go to the past without having to do a lot of research on the author's part like. We can just explain anything that goes wrong by saying well it was because time travelers messed it up or whatever. That's why there's a historical inaccuracy Seth Mm hmm. J.W. Or they just use it as sort of like ah I just want to show these different parts of time and we're not really going to do much with it. So having novels where the time travel portion actually impacts either the real world today or has sort of like ah an impact on the past in ways that you can see today are are my favorite types of time travel novels and Year of the Quiet Sun sort of goes in between that a little bit because they have invented a time travel device which allows them to sort of go backwards and forwards in time but meanwhile in the United States there's sort of a despotic president on the rise who they're worried. That if he wins is going to make it so that you know basically America turns into this horrible dystopic nightmare and um Seth Mm, what a wild fantasy. J.W. Right I know thankfully that you know couldn't possibly happen, and so they sort of like tried to go forward in time and figure out like well did he win. And if so how did he win and and what's going to happen. Meanwhile though, there's tons of questions about race and in ways that I think are extremely surprising and if I may just for a second put up huge spoiler warnings. Can I say one? huge spoiler thing from this novel. Seth Um, all right, go for it. J.W. Okay, so, Wilson Tucker the thing that I think really makes this novel work is that he never tells you really what the main character looks like he never says whether he's white or black or or any race and so you at me at least as a reader I just assumed it's a white dude. Well. Seth Mm. Right. J.W. When he goes forward into the future into this What has turned into this awful racial Wars All these things it turns out that the main character is black and Tucker intentionally I believe made you as the reader assume whatever you assumed about that character. So that he could reveal at the end your own internal biases about race and your own assumptions about how you know what a person who was black would have interacted with people in his own time and I just thought that that was such a stunning reveal on such ah a smart way of looking at racial tension. J.W. Because it puts you the reader into the shoes of the person who is either having those biases or having to deal with what you what you thought about race in a way that feels like it should have been impossible in a Science Fiction novel and so Year of the Quiet Sun I think you know it's sort of like the sleeper candidate to to win that year but I think it it would have been a very worthy choice to win. Seth Nice, nice J.W. Oh and ah this is my my another plug and this ah this shows my fandom but you know they only recently introduced best series into the hugos and which is honestly ah a category I love I'm so glad it's there because a as a voracious reader it means. Hey you know book we have a 14 book series and it got best series. It's like okay, great I have an excuse to read you know 14 books if I end up liking that series. But um, you know Wheel of Time never won it did get nominated as a whole series. Um, because they like changed the rules I think that year to allow it to get. Nominated as a whole series. But um, man again, it's kind of like Lord of the Rings where where it's ah it's a series that has been so impactful on so many readers I mean every one of those 14 novels was a number one New York Times bestseller um and introduced so many people into fantasy like for me. Wheel of Time was my gateway into epic fantasy like I I knew fantasy existed and you know I knew about Lord of the Rings I'd seen the movies but wheel of time were the books where I was like oh this is this is a thing that you can do you know for for over a dozen novels and I just. Really wish that it had gotten some nominees because some of those books are just so fantastic and Robert Jordan the way he imagined this world of rich color and narrative and smells and sights. It was just it's just beautiful and I know some readers will bounce off it and that's fine I mean not everyone likes the same thing but 800 page books you know, 14 of them minimum. It's if you want to get into an epic fantasy series and you have it you you got to give them a try I just have to give that a plug because I also want the Amazon TV series to go on forever because I've been enjoying that as well. Yeah. Seth That's that's one that I have not I think I think I got the audiobook recently and listened to the first chapter but I haven't haven't gone any further. So. J.W. Oh man, you you are in for a treat if you continue and I mean they just like I said they they do sort of get to the point where you're like okay I get it. You want to describe the clothes of this city and you have a whole vision of what every single person might wear or what they might eat and like let's move on with the plot. But ah truly is such a richly imagined world where you can feel the you just feel it you can. It feels like you just live there today. Seth Mm, nice. Yeah I mean Epic Fantasy has never been my my favorite So we'll see one of these days. J.W. Um, yeah yeah I suspect you're you're more of a Science Fiction fan just in general. Seth Yeah, yeah J.W. One thing that I was wondering just just to spitball about the Hugo Awards and. Seth No, no yeah. J.W. Something that always struck me as I was reading this list was that there has to my knowledge never been any tie-in novel even sniffing a nomination. Ah so and what I mean by that is like Doctor Who, Star Wars, Star Trek You know you name it. None of these sort of expanded universe type novels ever even got close and um I guess I just wanted to mention that now because to me you know when you talk about misses in the Hugos like the Hugos to an extent are I think intended to be about like Literary merits of Science Fiction and fantasy novels I think that that is some of the intent and so people tend to see tie-in novels as just inherently missing that like you you can't write a tie-in and also have great literature right? like that can't happen. But I think and I think that you would probably agree I think that that is a mistake. Seth Mm, sure. J.W. And I just wish that um, whether it was its own category like a tie-in subcategory of Hugos or something I wish that that could be acknowledged somehow because there are I think some truly wonderful tie-end novels out there. My own knowledge is mostly from star wars so like whether you have the thr trilogy from Timothy Zahn which I think I think those are more excellent space adventures if you like star wars but um, there's the Darth Bane trilogy that talks about like this Sith lord, um, where it really is just an excellent antihero where you find yourself rooting for the bad guy and being like oh no, that's bad I shouldn't root for the sith um, but it's not just it's not just Star Warsy, Sith-y, it's like truly. There are evil acts happening here where you can understand why this person wants to do this and you actually sort of are like yeah it doesn't seem like the worst idea in this moment and to me that does again just going back to it that encompasses part of what makes great Science Fiction is making you think about yourself or making you think about humanity. And having that happen in star wars novels was like really surprising and so I would just like to see I guess some acknowledgement that those sort of fans exist and I mean have you ever been to a world con? Seth Nope this year will be my first one J.W. So yeah I mean only one I was at was you know Chicon 8, which was a lot of fun I had an absolute blast and I'm hoping to go to Seattle next year. But ah, you know those cons to my knowledge at least Worldcon isn't there's not a lot of people dressing up in Star Trek or Star Wars characters. Whatever it's usually like you have your t-shirt. You know it's about the books, largely. I mean obviously movie as a category. Um, but I think like in a sense I almost feel like we're missing out. There's like this Hugo fandom and then there's this tie end fandom and it's almost like while there is tons of overlap between those two it would be wonderful to see some sort of like handholding almost to see like. Is there a way to like help heal some of the wounds from last year's Hugos where we could say like hey how do we reach out to some of these huge fandoms where like hey guys like we have a category for Doctor Who and Star Wars and Star Trek and all ye fans that's not just best TV or you know, episode or best series but also like what is the best highend fiction I mean and I'm a huge Warhammer 40k fan. So I'd be all about some of this you know in the grim dark future. There is only war. Um, and. You know, which yeah it is sort of funny to think that there can be great Science Fiction there. But I I really think that we're missing out by not having those in the conversation sometimes because um, they just have really. Excellent fiction and just because they're existing in ah, an established universe I don't think takes away a lot from them. Seth Right, I mean it it kind of gives the reader a leg up into the world right? because you don't you don't have to you know you're not going to have to slog through the invention of something brand new right? I mean in Doctor Who or Star Trek right? It's going to introduce the new planet or the new whatever is going on. But you already have that in with the main characters and and so it it is sort of a ah gateway thing right? You can you can get readers into Science Fiction through that and so I I do think there's an important role that tie in fiction plays and I think it's. The temptation would be to go well, that's that's training Wheel Science Fiction and once I'm off that then I'm not going back to it and you know to be honest I I haven't really gone back to Star Trek novels were were really mine I mean the Thrawn Trilogy I was reading them when they were coming out right and waiting waiting for the next one to come out and that was really Annoying. Um, but. J.W. Um, yeah, the. Seth But Star Trek you know I I I was into Star Trek the Next Generation. So I read a couple dozen of the tng g novels and I haven't really gone back to that I finally did a couple years ago with with David Agranoff to read ah Federation which is an excellent tie in novel. Um, and it's the kind of novel where where I read it and I'm like wow that you know. That should win some kind of award and maybe there is award for for for tie in novels. Let's let's find out if there is and we can We can branch off a podcast for it. J.W. Yeah I think I think they have it at Dragon Con I think they have several different versions at Dragon Con It's just I I don't know why I just haven't really gotten into the Dragon Con stuff yet. So maybe maybe maybe what I'm saying is I need to try to get over there sometimes Seth Mm, yeah. J.W. Yeah I mean just just the fact that you're saying that you know with with fine. You know you read that book. You're like man this does deserve an award's like I just think it would be great to have some acknowledgement of tiai-end fiction at the hugos and I think it'll be an easy thing for you know whether the Seattle Worldcon or an upcoming one to just say we're just going to try this category out. You know and and it might end up just being you know Doctor Who fan people versus you know Warhammer fan you know and maybe it's just a disaster who knows but you don't know until you try it and you know it's like yeah. Seth Yeah, you know that would that would make an interesting suggestion for a panel at at Worldcon right? So have to think about that for for next year maybe yeah what's the "What's the role of tie in fiction?" and you know why aren't we acknowledging, you know the the the the good parts. J.W. Yeah, best tie in fiction of year. Yeah, yeah, and and like you said too. I mean I think to an extent. Some readers are almost put off by like when you see Wheel of Time. It's it's an easy example 14 books. You know the last one's over 1000 pages I think the last four over a thousand pages that's a huge commitment. But if you pick up a Star Wars book pretty much no matter where you are in Star Wars like you know you're probably going to be able to understand that book. You don't have to go through 800 pages of exposition to even get your feet down in the world and. Seth Mm yeah, yeah. J.W. I think there's something to be said for that because some of the authors in tie in fiction have realized that and utilized it Adrian Tchaikovsky is a great example. He has now written some Warhammer 40k fiction where he has been able to play and I'm I'm sure any reader who has read him knows that he's excellent at big ideas. At you know, sort of asking the big questions having these huge dramatic worlds and so with Warhammer 40k he could just jump in have these built-in assumptions about the world and play with some of the dynamics of that in in some extreme ways. So seeing some quote unquote mainstream authors or or really popular sort of power hitters of Science Fiction, fantasy authors playing with tie in fiction I think is also fun. Um, and I just want to I almost want to destigmatize that some to say like that's okay Seth Um, yeah, Mm. J.W. Like we we shouldn't fault someone for going and playing with star wars for a while or whatever because some of that you know you you could make it better AC Crispin is another example, you know she she wrote the Han Solo trilogy for Star Wars and she wrote a bunch of Star Trek fiction and I believe some other tie in fiction as well too, and then she had her own series as well. Um, but she wrote such phenomenal characters where you know like you really got into the people's heads and I think I don't know I just I don't like the stigma I guess and so so you know we talked about like not hating on um, people's likes and I ah, phrase I heard a long time ago I don't remember who to credit for is just to not yuck Other people's yums and because like the world's too harsh already. We don't need to like dunk on someone for liking. Whatever we don't like right like and and to an extent I think that happens with tie-in fiction where it's like oh you spend your time reading that and, sorry I'm going so far afield from from Hugos but my tie back into that is I think that there should be some acknowledgement of the existence of tie-in fiction. Seth Um I like it So your next project is finishing up all the nominees for the Nebula. J.W. Yeah I mean I think I'm going to probably do a ah big smattering. Um I've really been enjoying the British Science Fiction um award winners as well. Um, and the Arthur C Clarke because again you have more abroad I guess authors popping up. Mm. Seth Mm, yeah. J.W. You know Arthur C Clarke ah especially has some some where there's very little overlap some years between that and the the Hugos and you're like oh these are these are just all different. There was one that won the award I want to say three years ago or so called The Animals in That Country and it. Was just a ah super fascinating look at pandemic world whoa you know, watch out. Seth Mm, yeah. J.W. Um, which I imagine was written pre-co you know and so it was published sort of an an unfortunate or maybe fortunate time. But also talked about like sort of the the way that disinformation can play into people's fears and doubts and dreams and hopes and so yeah, basically if it if it has an award and maybe I should like like we just talk about maybe I should throw the Dragon Con awards in there too. Um I'm gonna try to go through it. So. Seth Um, nice. J.W. My quest is basically just all big awards gonna hit them all you know Locus, Nebula, Arthur C Clarke, Philip K Dick Ursula Le Guin you know all of these awards that are coming out and just trying to get as many of them as possible because I mean. It's what I love to do. It's super fun. Seth Why not? yeah yeah, that's cool, all right? Well I I think probably about wrapped ah where can people find you? J.W. So the website that I write most of my Science Fiction fantasy stuff on is eclectictheist.wordpress.com so it's the word eclectic the word theist theist dot wordpress dot com um again I do have reviews of like basically every year of the Hugos coming I'm through. 97 so we're gonna get to the two thousand s pretty soon and out of the hard Science Fiction slump. So if you don't like hard sci-fi get ready. There's more coming and if you do time to start reading right now because the 90s are here and hard sci-fi is here to stay. Seth Nice J.W. And then I also write about random stuff like I've been reading all the presidential biographies and stuff so there's all kinds of eclectic things to explore there. So I Love to talk about books. Seth Right? No, but your your series on your read through of the Hugos is is really excellent and it like it gives me ideas of where to jump off and that kind of gave me the idea to do this this episode. J.W. Thank you I mean I always have fun on your podcast. So I appreciate you having me on. Seth All right. Well I'm sure we'll talk again sometime down the line, JW, so thanks again for doing this. J.W. Thank you bye.