0:02

The public has had a long-held fascination

0:04

with detectives. Detectives see a

0:06

side of life the average person is never

0:08

exposed to. I spent 34 years

0:10

as a cop. For 25 of

0:12

those years I was catching killers. That's

0:14

what I did for a living. I was a

0:16

homicide detective. I'm no longer

0:18

just interviewing bad guys. Instead I'm taking the

0:20

public into the world in which I operated.

0:23

The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

0:26

from all sides of the law. The

0:28

interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I

0:30

talk to. Some of the content and

0:32

language might be confronting. That's because no

0:34

one who comes into contact with crime

0:36

is left unchanged. Join me now

0:38

as I take you into this world. Welcome

0:46

back to part two of my chat

0:48

with Holly Doon Johns. In part one

0:50

Holly told us about her upbringing that

0:53

strangely she said it was normal. I

0:55

don't think it was that normal because

0:57

we're talking about as a teenager helping

0:59

the family run the escort agency. Being

1:02

with mother, letting her have a taste of

1:04

heroin at the age of 14, 15. There's

1:07

a couple of strange things there Holly, when

1:10

you say it's a normal upbringing. Who

1:14

am I? I'm not judging. I'm just saying

1:16

it's not the typical upbringing. But

1:18

all jokes aside, your whole family was

1:20

inflicted by an addiction to heroin. I'm

1:22

talking to siblings, parents and basically your

1:25

whole family. Yeah, apart from my dad.

1:28

Well, my dad was a very heavy drinker. So

1:30

I guess that was his addiction. But

1:33

yeah, all of us at one time were

1:35

heroin addicts and each of us had been

1:37

in jail. And when you see

1:39

that path, you see the path that your life

1:42

has taken, it doesn't come as

1:44

a surprise that you end up in jail.

1:46

And then when you're still carrying on your

1:48

love affair with the drug heroin over

1:51

in Thailand, it was probably only a matter of time before

1:53

you got caught. Yeah,

1:56

looking back on it now with a rational

1:58

mind. For

2:00

sure. That's interesting you say with

2:02

a rational mind because we talked in part one

2:04

that you were saying that you're not thinking clearly

2:06

when you're addicted to heroin. That's your

2:09

drive in all. That's your drive, yeah. I

2:11

want to take us right into the prison

2:13

because I know a lot of

2:15

people think what is it like in a

2:18

foreign prison now. In a prison

2:20

in Thailand the conditions aren't going to be good, they're not going

2:22

to be conducive to an easy

2:24

life. Take us

2:26

right through that journey and how you change and

2:28

how you learn to cope in the prison, everything

2:31

that you experience. Okay

2:33

so let's start off with

2:35

night one. That was a spin

2:37

out. So

2:40

taken up to the first

2:42

floor where there's just

2:44

a long corridor of cells. There's

2:48

concrete up to about waist high and then

2:51

there's just bars. You can

2:53

see into every single cell down the

2:55

whole corridor. I'm standing outside

2:57

the door to this cell, I'm looking in

2:59

looking for foreign faces. I don't see any,

3:01

just tie. And I'm thinking oh my

3:03

god, fire out. Walk

3:06

in. I said does anyone here

3:08

speak English? One chick put

3:10

her hand up said I do and I'm like oh thank

3:13

god for that. Sat

3:15

down with her, she spoke great English. She

3:18

was what they call the mai hong

3:20

which is the mother of the room. She's

3:22

in charge of every single thing that happens

3:24

in there. So our

3:27

money was in a form of coupons. So she's

3:29

in charge of giving the money out. She's

3:32

in charge of who sleeps where. She's

3:34

in charge of everything that happens in there. So

3:37

she sort of filled me in on what the routine was

3:39

and she

3:41

said okay, I will work out where you're going

3:43

to sleep. And I'm looking

3:45

around thinking what do you mean? There's

3:48

nowhere. You literally could not

3:50

see the wooden floor. There

3:52

was that many women in there. Just

3:55

standing lying sitting on the floor. At

3:58

that stage. At

4:00

that stage everyone was sitting down because

4:02

the TV was on, so everyone was

4:04

watching TV but they had their blankets

4:07

out and all that. So

4:10

I'm thinking, where does she

4:12

think she's going to put me? There's no space.

4:15

So she got up and she counted each

4:17

line of women. I think there was one,

4:19

two, five rows. Whichever

4:22

line had the least women, that's where I was

4:24

going. So she said,

4:27

everybody, okay, lay down on your side.

4:30

She told people to move and she

4:32

said, okay, that's where you are. And I'm like, that,

4:35

that. And you're indicating here about

4:37

30, 40 centimetres. That's

4:40

been generous. Right, okay. It was 22

4:42

centimetres. So when you're saying lying on

4:44

your side, you're literally lying on your

4:47

side. So that

4:49

was my night one introduction.

4:51

And you're laying on the floor.

4:54

You're laying on the floor. Rose, how many women

4:56

all up would have been in this cell? In

5:00

that one, I think there was about 120.

5:03

Okay. It's just a cell

5:06

at the end is a small, small

5:09

area with a toilet in the

5:12

ground. That's it.

5:15

And when you're using

5:17

the toilet, everyone

5:19

can see what's going on. There's absolutely

5:22

no privacy. I

5:24

actually didn't use the toilet in the cell

5:26

for a month because I

5:28

was that embarrassed. I was that shy. I'm

5:30

like, how can I, how can

5:32

I go to the toilet in front of 120 people? That

5:35

was just unfathomable to me. But

5:38

then after a month, I realised,

5:40

hey, this is life. This is

5:42

life now. And you're going to be here for

5:44

20, 30 years. And

5:47

I was like, you know what? Forget

5:49

about your modesty. Forget about being embarrassed. Forget

5:51

everything that you knew about yourself. You

5:53

have to change. And I

5:57

made the decision then. I

6:00

made the decision to live like a tie.

6:05

And that decision

6:08

I know helped me get

6:11

through that experience. I

6:13

couldn't be me anymore. Okay,

6:15

that's an interesting... I understand the

6:17

concept you're saying. You were

6:19

thinking like an Australian

6:21

woman would in that environment, where's this, where's

6:25

that? You're going to just create a

6:27

bigger nightmare for yourself. So you just have to

6:29

accept, okay, this is the environment. I'm going to

6:31

become one of these people. They're surviving. I

6:34

can do this. Just back on

6:36

the bed situation, if you're

6:38

laying that close, that tight, one

6:40

person rolls over, you all roll over? Or was that the...

6:43

That's what happened. Yeah. So

6:45

if one person turned in the line, the whole line would

6:47

have to roll. Crazy.

6:51

It was that hot in the cell. There

6:54

was two ceiling fans

6:57

and they weren't the big fans. Just

6:59

little... The little round one. Okay.

7:02

So the type, the old style fans you'd see on

7:04

the kitchen bench, circulating there. Yeah, two

7:06

of those. Yeah. Okay. It

7:09

felt like it was 50 degrees in that. So

7:12

when you're sleeping that close to people, you

7:14

feel like your skin is melted into

7:17

each other. You're just stuck

7:19

to each other. You're sweaty. And

7:22

so you are skin to skin virtually because you

7:24

can say it's close. And you got

7:26

on the floor, it's timber floor and you

7:28

got a mattress, not a mattress, a blanket

7:30

or what the... Some people couldn't afford to have

7:32

a blanket. I bought a

7:35

couple, which I would fold up to lay on. If

7:41

the person laying next to you, which did happen to me,

7:43

she had her hair in a ponytail. Her hair was in

7:45

my face. So I kept

7:48

like pushing her head to get it out of

7:50

my face and she was getting pissed off. I

7:53

was getting pissed off. But

7:55

what do you do? Did you have to stand up

7:57

for yourself in a situation like that? Oh, many

7:59

times. There was one time

8:02

at showering. I'll explain the

8:04

shower episode because that was quite

8:06

a eye opening as well. So

8:09

it was explained to me in the cell. She

8:11

said, look, as soon as the cell doors get

8:13

opened, it's a stampede. I said, what do you

8:15

mean? And she said, you run

8:18

as fast as you can to get

8:20

to the tank area. Now

8:22

this tank area, it was like a

8:25

large trough. You

8:29

would stand around this trough with a

8:31

small plastic bowl, which you would use

8:33

to scoop the water and throw it

8:35

over yourself. Now

8:38

in that section, you

8:41

didn't have to shower with the pyjama

8:43

top on. You could

8:45

be naked from the

8:47

waste up. So obviously

8:49

I've been sweating all night. I'm very

8:51

hot. I'm dirty. So I take my

8:53

top off. I take my bra off

8:55

to shower properly. I

8:59

realized quite quickly that it was

9:01

the right move not to be

9:04

wearing anything because people were grabbing

9:06

onto the backs of people's pyjamas,

9:09

pulling them away from the

9:11

front of the trough so they could

9:13

get in there to start taking water. That

9:17

blew my mind. So there's

9:21

a trustee prison at

9:24

the front of the tank. She

9:26

starts doing a countdown. When

9:28

this countdown starts, you start

9:30

taking water. Once it stops, get

9:33

out. Each lot that's

9:35

in front of the trough, let the count

9:37

and then you're out. Yeah. This

9:39

is if you haven't been pulled out already. So

9:42

if there was a good

9:44

trustee on, you'd get a slow count. If

9:46

there was an asshole on, you'd get a

9:48

real quick countdown that was showering. So

9:53

once that tank of water was

9:56

probably that high. You're looking at meter or

9:59

so. Yeah. So once that

10:01

water runs out, they

10:03

don't turn it back on. There's

10:05

water, it's not like there's no water. They choose not

10:07

to. So if you're

10:09

unlucky enough to have not gotten in

10:11

time, you don't get a

10:14

shower. You wait until the afternoon. Then

10:17

there's a second tank where,

10:19

because a lot of people wash their own clothes.

10:22

So there you can go to take water to

10:24

wash your clothes and you can take a bowl

10:26

to brush your teeth. Now

10:29

I'm new here. I don't know

10:31

really what's happening. I'm just sort of going

10:34

with the flow, watching people, blah, blah, blah. So

10:37

I've gone, I've put my bowl in to get some

10:39

water. There's a trustee there with a

10:41

long metal rod. She's raised

10:43

it and I can see she's gonna bring it down

10:45

across my wrist and I've yelled

10:48

out, oi, and she stopped.

10:50

I've went and got my friend. I said, you need to come

10:52

in and translate. You tell this woman if

10:55

she ever hits me with anything, I'll

10:57

grab an offer and I'll hurt her a lot worse

11:00

than what she can ever hurt me. I

11:02

said, you need to translate exactly what I've just said.

11:04

And she did. Me

11:06

and this woman actually became very good friends

11:09

after that. Which

11:12

was very handy to me because

11:14

her being a trustee,

11:17

she could get as much water she wanted. She

11:19

had a certain area in the prison where

11:23

nothing got stolen. So

11:27

these trustees had, these

11:29

were perks for them. They slept

11:31

in a cell with less people so they

11:34

could sleep very big in very big

11:36

spot. They had certain

11:38

areas where they could dry their clothes. So if

11:40

I paid one of these people to wash for

11:42

me, I knew my stuff wouldn't get

11:45

stolen. So it's things like that

11:47

that you have to, oh, okay, she can do

11:49

this for me. She can do that for me.

11:51

So that's how I sort of

11:53

navigated things. I gravitated and

11:55

made friends with people who would be

11:58

beneficial to me. So. they

12:00

were getting something from me that they needed, which was

12:02

money, and I was getting something

12:04

from them that I needed, which was my

12:06

clothes not to be stolen. Or if

12:09

I needed more water after a shower, I could get

12:11

it. So that's

12:13

sort of how I went about

12:15

establishing myself. Okay, so I'm

12:18

just trying to get a sense, like the

12:20

barrier to communication because you don't speak Thai

12:22

or didn't at that point in time. It

12:26

looks like you can't get walked over because if you get

12:28

the same rules as the prisons here, if you get walked

12:30

over to the start with, you're going to be walked over

12:32

for the whole time. The

12:35

sleeping conditions, how long were you

12:37

in that environment? Like if we're

12:39

talking 120 women, one toilet and

12:42

you're sleeping virtually spooning each other

12:45

by the sounds of it. Yeah.

12:49

It's hard to remember specific timelines,

12:51

but I was in that cell,

12:53

I think, no I was,

12:55

I was in that cell for about three

13:01

years. Over

13:04

time, you know, people might have got

13:06

bail, so they've been released from that

13:09

cell. So the number of people had

13:11

gone down at some times. And

13:13

I remember I did have a decent

13:16

sleeping area at one stage because there

13:18

were less people, but the

13:20

spot that I had was

13:22

directly underneath the TV in

13:24

the cell. And

13:26

these weren't modern TVs. These were

13:29

the big old style

13:31

ones. So this is

13:33

your mentality, right? And even thinking about

13:36

it now, it's so nuts that I

13:38

even had to consider this. But

13:42

because I knew what it was like in

13:44

there, I mean, I'd seen ceiling fans drop

13:46

from the ceiling onto people's heads. So

13:49

I knew that things weren't made well. I

13:52

knew that potentially that TV

13:55

could drop off the wall. But

13:58

my reasoning was, okay, that could happen. happen

14:00

and I might break my legs but

14:02

if it doesn't happen I've got a great

14:04

sleeping spot. Okay so that's a

14:06

trade-off. That's a trade-off and

14:10

even just saying

14:12

out loud that's insane that's

14:15

crazy way to think it is that's

14:17

nuts who thinks like that but

14:20

that's how you have to think you have to

14:22

not think

14:24

rationally anymore you can't because

14:26

you're in an irrational environment.

14:29

What about your health like

14:31

the food and yeah. I

14:33

had diarrhea for the first six months

14:36

that I was in there. Right. The

14:38

food was that spicy I

14:42

couldn't tolerate it so yeah

14:44

about six months before my stomach was used

14:46

to it and I actually enjoy spicy food

14:48

now but

14:50

that was a real problem for me because

14:53

in that section I was in there

14:55

was 2,000 women and at

14:58

that stage there was 10 toilets in

15:00

the yard. One toilet

15:03

for 200. Yeah. Jesus.

15:05

So having diarrhea that

15:08

was a real issue for me because

15:12

if I had to get to the toilet quick and you know

15:14

everyone knows what it's like to have a stomach problem then

15:17

you're gonna shit yourself. I was

15:19

lucky in the sense that the

15:22

boss in the room of mine she knew

15:25

the lady who oversaw this line to go

15:27

to the toilet so I'd always get to

15:29

the front again it's who you

15:31

know. You seem to

15:33

and from reading your book you seem

15:35

to have built a real sort of

15:37

community in there like I'm trying to

15:39

get a sense of how you occupy

15:41

your day like okay sleeping showering

15:44

washer clothes how

15:46

is the rest of the field in

15:49

that first section that I went into

15:51

it's a very small section so

15:54

there's not much work because

15:56

there's not much work I'd

15:59

say probably three-quarters of the

16:01

women were jobless.

16:05

That meant there was a massive tent-like

16:08

area in the yard and

16:11

that's where you sat all

16:13

day. There was

16:15

nothing else to do. So you're

16:17

sitting, are you finding people that you can talk to?

16:21

Yeah, in that section

16:23

there was probably

16:26

about six of us that

16:29

were foreigners. Where were these people from? Russia,

16:34

Indonesia, Russia,

16:37

Indonesia, Philippines.

16:41

So obviously we spoke

16:43

to each other because we couldn't speak to many other people.

16:45

Yeah, I was unemployed

16:50

for a long time there because there just was no work.

16:53

So what goes through your

16:55

mind at this point in time? Is it survive

16:58

each day? Is that one step

17:00

at a time? If I get through the day, today's

17:02

a good day. Did you get

17:04

involved in fights? Did you have any physical?

17:06

Yeah, I had a couple. What were they

17:08

over? Talk us through those. Do you

17:10

know what? The first fight I had, I don't

17:13

even know what it was about. That's

17:17

how crazy it is. This

17:22

was a friend of mine. Yeah,

17:24

she just got up and hit me and got

17:27

up and it was on.

17:29

One screw saw it and it was lucky

17:33

that it was the one who did see it. She

17:35

pulled us aside and said, what's going on? Nothing's

17:37

going on. Was it all good now?

17:39

Yeah, we're fine. Okay,

17:42

go. So that was that. Another

17:47

time I got into a fight

17:49

was with my best

17:51

friend. What

17:54

was her note? GG. Again,

17:57

I can't even remember now what the

17:59

fuck fight was about but it was over

18:02

something really trivial and

18:04

the thing is yeah it's

18:06

crazy to get into a punch-up with your friend

18:09

but you're that stressed out on a daily

18:11

basis you're you're

18:14

constantly in survival mode you're

18:18

just so under pressure all the

18:21

time every

18:23

day's like you're in a pressure cooker situation

18:25

so the littlest thing the littlest thing yeah

18:29

so that happened I

18:31

saw a girl kick Gigi

18:34

the girl I'm just talking about in the

18:36

stomach once and I just saw red and

18:38

I just started laying into her and

18:40

look and that's not me I don't

18:43

like confrontation if I can avoid

18:45

it obviously I avoid it but

18:48

again you have to adapt

18:50

to the situation you're in because

18:52

if you don't you're gonna get walked

18:54

on and that's not gonna happen to me

18:58

so you have to stand up for yourself you have

19:00

to was there consequences from

19:02

the fight did you get

19:04

separated or punished or what so

19:06

that fight I had with

19:08

the girl kicking my friend that

19:12

it's hard to explain to

19:14

people so everybody

19:17

has a building which you stay

19:19

in so if you if you're selling is in

19:22

that building you work in that building outsiders

19:25

aren't allowed to come in right

19:28

I was an outsider to this building but

19:31

the screw in charge never said anything to me

19:33

because I never caused trouble in there I always

19:36

helped with work if there was work I

19:40

wasn't just there as a troublemaker I

19:42

was actually helping there but

19:45

she saw me fighting

19:47

this chip there was two of them that saw

19:49

me so after it happened I just went

19:51

back down and sat down and I thought oh maybe they're gonna

19:53

turn a blind eye then they

19:56

called me up and said look we've known that

19:58

you've been coming in here for years And

20:00

we've never said anything to you because you've never

20:03

been a problem but I can't overlook that. You

20:06

have to leave. So I was never allowed

20:08

back into that building again. So

20:10

that was a major issue for us

20:12

because everything we did, we did in

20:14

there. So you have what's

20:16

called a house. This

20:20

is an

20:23

area of space which you sit

20:25

on, on

20:29

blue plastic that you

20:32

can buy from the shop there. A tarpaulin

20:34

type. Like a tarpaulin. That's your area. And

20:36

you call that your house. That's your house. Everyone has

20:38

a house. Out in the yard. Out in the yard.

20:41

So yeah, for me getting kicked out of

20:43

that building, I just lost

20:46

my house. So I said

20:48

to the two women I was living with, my

20:50

friend G and my other friend Pinay, I said,

20:53

look, this is a major hassle now. You

20:55

stay here in your building, I'll go. And I'll

20:57

just find somewhere else to be. And

20:59

they said, no. If you go, we go. So

21:02

that's what it's like. Once you're a family and you're very

21:04

close with people. That's

21:06

your people. Do you think that kept

21:08

your humanity in there? Kept you saying

21:11

having that friendship and connection with, you

21:14

know, you're calling them your family. Yeah. How

21:16

do you talk to your crew? 100 percent. Because

21:20

everything in a situation like that

21:22

is about making

21:25

your life as easy as it can be.

21:28

And everyone brings something

21:30

to the table. We all have

21:32

a skill or do you know what I mean?

21:35

We all have something we all need. So

21:37

that's what you sort of do. You

21:39

gravitate and make friendships

21:42

around making life that

21:44

little bit easier. My

21:48

name is Manny Carutas and I'm a

21:50

former New South Wales policeman turned investigative

21:52

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21:55

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21:59

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plus on Apple podcasts When

22:25

you made a decision when you're in in Prison

22:28

that you're not going to do drugs anymore

22:30

and that was about ten months in into

22:33

your your time in prison Yeah, what what

22:35

bought that on? I'm

22:39

sure you've heard people say oh, I had a

22:41

real light bulb moment. That's really

22:43

what happened. I Woke

22:46

up one morning gone out into the yard.

22:49

I'm sitting on the ground I'm

22:51

just sitting there just looking around at

22:54

the people at what's going on around

22:56

me and I Just

22:59

started thinking Wow Holly Look

23:02

where you are as in how

23:04

the hell do they end up here? Yeah, look

23:07

where you are look what you've done to yourself

23:09

you've ruined your life and That

23:12

moment for me was the light came

23:15

on and I was

23:17

like far out Look where

23:19

I'm gonna be for the next 20 30 years. Who knows?

23:22

Look where I am look what I've done to my

23:24

family look what I've done to my friends, but look what

23:26

I've done to me And

23:29

I made the decision right there and

23:32

in that moment I will never ever

23:34

touch drugs ever again ever

23:36

and did you keep that commitment to your

23:38

did? Yeah Oh, was it hard? No, it

23:42

was just like yeah the switch on switch.

23:44

Yep, and Like

23:47

I've said to you earlier I've

23:50

always been very strong-willed. I've

23:52

always had a very sharp mind If

23:56

I make a decision to do something I

23:58

do it. I don't back down from a

24:00

decision. Once it's made, it's made. So

24:03

because I am like that, that's

24:05

why it was easy. Okay. And

24:07

was it easier doing time when you

24:09

had, you were clean or, because you

24:11

said it earlier on that the drugs

24:13

were part of your escapism when you're

24:15

in there. So when you haven't got

24:17

the drugs to hide behind, how

24:20

did your time change for you? I read a

24:22

lot. I escaped in

24:24

books. Okay. A lot of the

24:26

foreigners did. We were all big,

24:29

big readers. It

24:32

was funny because sometimes there wouldn't be

24:34

many books. And for example,

24:36

you know, if I saw you with the book, I'd be

24:38

like, as soon as you finish, can I have it? But

24:41

then, oh, yeah, no, I was in

24:43

line next. And, you know, it would be a fight over

24:45

the book, not a physical fight. Far

24:48

out, you know, I've got to wait. That

24:51

was an escape. We would read a book

24:53

to go somewhere else. At

24:56

one stage, we were allowed to have

24:58

Walkmans brought in. That

25:01

for me, amazing. I love

25:03

music. So if I didn't have a

25:05

book, I'd have music. If I

25:07

didn't have batteries, I'd have books. So,

25:11

yeah, those two things for all of us

25:13

foreigners, that was great. But

25:17

then our Walkmans were taken because

25:19

the men were found to be

25:21

making mobile phones out of them.

25:25

So that was taken. Yeah,

25:28

the TV and the cells

25:30

are turned on for about two and

25:32

a half hours a night. Thai

25:35

soap opera and stuff like that. News

25:39

would come on, but we were only allowed to watch

25:41

news on the Royal Family. If anything

25:43

else came on, the TVs were switched off. So,

25:48

yeah, you know, I started watching

25:50

Thai soapies. When did you pick up the

25:52

language? Yeah, look,

25:54

it did take a long time. Thai

25:56

is a very hard language to learn, but

25:58

it was for me. I

26:01

could very early on understand

26:04

things but I couldn't verbalise them. But

26:08

yeah, you know, years in I

26:10

could communicate. Now

26:13

you always had the goal to get your

26:15

sentence, the prison transferred back

26:17

to an Australian prison. What was the process that

26:19

you had to go through for that? It wasn't

26:21

a big process at all. There

26:24

were certain forms to be filled

26:26

out. Once they were filled out,

26:29

they got sent back

26:31

to Australia. Yeah,

26:34

to be determined whether it was a yes or a no.

26:37

I never ever imagined it would be a no. Yeah,

26:41

I just automatically thought

26:43

I would be getting a yes. Come home, come

26:46

back. We want you back here. Yeah, and

26:48

that wasn't the case. It took you seven years.

26:50

Seven and a half. Seven, you corrected

26:53

me before. Don't forget that half. Okay,

26:55

it's only six months. You were

26:58

correcting me before we started. Oh mate, that six months

27:00

felt like a year. Right, seven

27:02

years, six months, 22 hours, 10 seconds. Yeah,

27:04

okay, I get it. Okay,

27:06

before we take you back to Australia,

27:08

what was the worst moment you had?

27:11

What was your lowest point in the seven years that

27:13

you spent in prison? Being

27:16

knocked back to go

27:18

home. Right. That was

27:20

the most devastating thing. Oh,

27:24

actually no, not the most devastating

27:26

thing. The

27:28

most devastating two things were getting told my

27:31

father had died of a heart attack and

27:34

getting knocked back to

27:36

transfer back home. How was

27:38

it broken to you that your father had died? Two

27:42

people from the embassy came to visit me

27:44

late in the afternoon, and

27:46

I knew something was wrong because getting told

27:48

to go to the visit area then, that

27:51

only means bad news. That would have

27:53

been hard. Oh, it was horrible. Devastating. There's

27:56

another part to that too, isn't there,

27:58

that he wrote you a letter that... day that

28:00

you were arrested that you put in the glove

28:02

box and you didn't open it up until years

28:05

later and he was saying get out of Thailand

28:07

I've got a bad feeling about it. Yeah that's

28:09

exactly what it said

28:11

I don't have a good feeling about you being there come

28:13

home. It's almost like a voice from the

28:15

grave isn't it? Yeah. Reading that. But

28:18

as I've said to other people even if I did

28:20

read that letter I wouldn't have

28:22

gone. Yeah yeah you're

28:24

hooked on the gear.

28:26

Yeah. Okay so packing

28:29

up you finally got the transfer to come

28:31

through what was the process there? Like they

28:33

don't just say okay get out of here

28:35

and make sure you report there. Who escorted

28:37

you back and what were the processes? Yeah

28:39

so I was told that two

28:42

screws from Australia would fly to Thailand to

28:44

get me they would escort me

28:46

home. In

28:53

the few months leading up to that obviously

28:55

I had to have clothes brought in shoes

28:58

all that type of thing which was good because

29:00

I saw a lot of people walk out of

29:02

the jail in their pyjamas they didn't have clothes.

29:06

So yeah the process wasn't a big

29:08

complicated one I've got the okay you

29:12

know things just had to be put into motion. The

29:15

day the day that I

29:18

left was really bizarre.

29:22

All the very high-ranking prison

29:25

officers all came to work

29:27

that day. I can't remember how many

29:29

there was it was probably like 30 or 40 of

29:33

them. All

29:35

at the main area where the nice

29:38

boardroom is and all that type of

29:40

thing. So

29:42

they wanted a photo. Really

29:44

weird. With

29:46

me the two prison

29:48

officers escorting me home and

29:51

all of them. I was like what?

29:56

Anyway I was just happy to be leaving so I

29:58

was like yeah cool alright. I had

30:00

the photo. Oh, once

30:03

I get developed we'll send one over to you. I

30:07

said don't bother. I said I don't want it. Oh,

30:09

are you sure? I said yeah, I'm sure. Don't send it. So

30:13

yeah, that was that. Yeah. So

30:15

you've taken back, we've escorted back

30:18

with corrective services from WA

30:20

and bringing you back. What

30:23

was it like getting out of the prison and

30:25

just being on a plane and being for a

30:27

moment free, normal person? No, well

30:29

first after that I was

30:31

taken to the immigration centre

30:33

where I would

30:35

be escorted to the airport that night.

30:39

So this happened in the morning. Stayed

30:41

in the immigration cells till about, I

30:43

think it was about 10 at night.

30:48

Yeah, I thought I was going to get into a

30:50

fight there with one of the women

30:53

in the cell. I found out later

30:56

that she had been there for a long time. She'd set

30:58

up a little shop in the cell. She

31:00

knew all the cops there. They'd go and

31:02

buy stuff for her. She

31:05

wanted you to pay her for cleaning the cell.

31:07

Yeah. Yeah, I've

31:10

walked in and she said I

31:12

want such and such amount of money. For

31:15

what? Oh, the cleaning of

31:17

the cell. And I said well I don't have any

31:19

money. I said the cops have my money and

31:21

I said even if I did have money I wouldn't

31:23

be paying her. So I pissed off.

31:26

And she went back to her corner,

31:29

eyeballing me all day and I thought oh

31:31

my god. Have you toughened up the things

31:33

at this stage? Like a timid person that

31:35

would be confronting you've gone into someone else's

31:37

environment. The way you're saying this, well stuff

31:40

it. No one's standing over me. Is that

31:42

how you change? Is that how you change

31:44

to survive in the prison? Yeah,

31:47

because why

31:50

would I let anyone stand over me? For

31:52

what? I would never allow that

31:54

to happen. But

31:57

that's the thing. You have to let

31:59

people know. straight off the bat. This

32:02

is who I am, this is what I'm going to cop

32:04

from you and this is what I'm not going to cop.

32:06

Once people know the boundary, everyone knows what's

32:08

going on. That's why I

32:10

let people know from the get-go. So

32:14

you're at the immigration center and

32:16

then you're taken out, taken to the

32:18

airport? Yeah, look that was

32:21

great. Once got to the airport, I

32:23

sat in an office for

32:25

hours. That was

32:27

really boring, there was nothing to do, there

32:29

was no books to read, there was

32:31

no teeth, just sat there.

32:34

The boss from the Embassy

32:36

came in that night, I had to

32:38

sign a piece of paper which

32:40

was acknowledging the amount

32:43

of money I'd received from the Australian government over

32:45

the seven and a half years I was there.

32:49

Yeah, I had to sign that and

32:53

that was pretty much that. I was

32:56

so hungry I hadn't eaten anything. I'd

32:59

had breakfast that morning at the jail, I'd

33:01

had a bun to eat at the immigration, I

33:04

was starving. This was like 11

33:06

o'clock at night. Another Consular official

33:09

came, I'd known her for a

33:11

few years by this time. The first thing she

33:13

asked me was, are you hungry? I

33:15

said, mate I'm starving. I said, here's

33:17

some money. She said, put your money away, I'll go and

33:19

get some food. Beautiful,

33:21

you know. Make a difference.

33:24

Yeah, you know. I said, I've got

33:26

to go to the toilet. So she had to take

33:28

me to the toilet and she said, wow, how weird is it?

33:31

You know, you've been able to close the door, it's weird. It's

33:35

funny the things you become used

33:37

to. So you're

33:39

on the plane, did it feel good taking off?

33:41

Yeah, you know I had the screws either side

33:43

of me. He was reading a book.

33:46

Oh God, I felt so sorry for

33:48

her. I just talked her ear off.

33:51

What's going on? Hours, yeah, you

33:53

know. Look, it

33:55

was just great to be able to talk

33:57

to her another person again, you know. She

34:01

was a senior officer, so she was able to tell

34:03

me everything that would be happening and all that. And

34:05

yeah, no, it was good. Okay.

34:08

How did you find it coming back

34:10

into the Australian prison system? And

34:13

how would you compare the both?

34:16

Night and day. Okay.

34:21

It was great to be back. I

34:24

mean, I could use a telephone. I

34:27

could ring anybody. I

34:29

could watch TV, whatever I wanted. I

34:31

could shower whenever I wanted. Hot

34:34

water. Oh my God. Feeling

34:36

hot water on my skin for that first time

34:38

was like... Because you wouldn't have felt that when it was

34:40

seven years? Never. No. Seven years, six months, 22

34:42

hours. That's it,

34:44

yes. Got it right this time. Sleeping

34:49

on a mattress. How did

34:51

that feel? Because you get the... That

34:53

was strange. The section that

34:55

I was put into when I first came back

34:57

was called the Crisis Care

34:59

Unit. I was like, why am I

35:02

going into the Crisis Care Unit? I want to

35:04

go into main population. Oh no,

35:06

no, no, no. You have to stay in here for two

35:08

weeks. I said, why? I'm not a vulnerable person. Oh

35:11

no, we want to see how you go, getting

35:13

back onto a Western diet and all that. I

35:16

think that was a bullshit. I

35:18

think they thought I was gone in the head or...

35:20

I don't know. Anyway,

35:22

they said, well, this is how it is. I

35:25

said, OK. Yeah,

35:28

sleeping on a bed, that was really weird. I got

35:30

vertigo for quite a while. Yeah,

35:32

the beds in that section were probably that high

35:34

off the ground. A

35:37

pillow, that was really strange. A lot of the nights

35:39

I didn't sleep with one. Yeah,

35:43

just getting used to the little

35:45

things. Like, I could wear thongs

35:47

inside. Over there, walking

35:49

anywhere, you couldn't wear shoes

35:51

in the buildings. So

35:54

yeah, just little things like that. Did you

35:56

leave in Thailand under... understanding

36:00

more of the culture, like in that type

36:02

of environment. Oh yeah. So

36:04

yeah, different cultures, they think a different way.

36:06

It's not just, you know, it's not just

36:08

in the language, the way they approach life.

36:10

You learn stuff about the Thai culture. Yeah.

36:14

So it's mostly a Buddhist culture,

36:16

which I loved. I thought

36:18

it was amazing, like just

36:20

differences in certain things they did

36:22

and their rituals and stuff

36:25

like that. You know, I

36:27

was living with my two best friends who were

36:29

Thai and they were very much Buddhist, very,

36:32

very into the religion and that. So

36:34

there would be times, you know,

36:36

maybe once or twice a year when they would do

36:39

a thing called gingay and

36:41

that's just eating vegetables and fruit. There's

36:43

no meat, there's no dairy, there's no

36:45

nothing. They

36:47

would do these things for a week sometimes too.

36:51

So I would do it with them. And

36:54

they would be like, no, you don't have to do it with

36:56

us. You're not a Buddhist and this is our thing. Like you

36:58

eat what you got to eat. And I said, no, I don't

37:00

feel right about it. I don't

37:02

want to be sitting here eating all this in front

37:04

of you. I said, no, we'll do it together. So

37:07

yeah, I very much became, as

37:09

I said earlier, a Thai.

37:12

You know, in the early days

37:14

I got my hair cut

37:16

shorter and I got it dyed, dyed brown.

37:18

No, you didn't stand out. So I didn't stand out

37:21

because that enabled me to be able

37:24

to go into places where the screws

37:26

wouldn't think what she doing there, why

37:28

she gone there. So

37:32

yeah, I had to

37:34

think of everything very, very early on

37:37

to help me. To get

37:39

for her. When you're

37:42

back in the Australian prison, you would have

37:44

been a curiosity item. I'm sure everyone

37:46

would have wanted to, what was it like? And

37:48

you must have got sick of repeating the story.

37:50

I did. Yeah. And

37:53

I knew that was going to happen, but you know, I just

37:55

thought, you know what? If

37:57

I was on the other side, looking at somebody that

37:59

was. it's just come back. I'd want to know

38:01

as well. I'd be acting the same thing. I'd want to

38:03

sit down with you for two hours and just you know ask

38:07

you everything. So I got it. I understood

38:10

it. How long did you serve back

38:13

in WA prisons? Five. Another five

38:15

years. So what do we got?

38:18

17 years or so all up in prison.

38:22

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39:19

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39:41

Do you look back and think they're wasted years? How

39:43

do you look back at your life? So

39:47

wasted. Especially the

39:50

time in Thailand

39:53

because if you're

39:56

Thai you can study.

39:59

You can actually. learn stuff and get out and

40:01

use it. When you're a foreigner

40:03

in there, it's dead time. There's

40:05

absolutely nothing you're getting out with

40:08

that's a benefit to your future.

40:11

That's why I not

40:13

only I wanted to get back to Australia,

40:15

but I wanted the opportunities that the jail

40:17

there would would give me. Everything's

40:21

given to you in Australia.

40:23

You don't end up anything you

40:25

want, anything you need, anything you want to

40:27

learn. It's all there. How did

40:29

you use your time in the

40:31

five years? I did first

40:33

aid courses, I did community

40:35

services certificates, I got a

40:38

diploma in youth work. I

40:41

did everything that

40:43

would enable me to use for

40:46

my future. I knew very

40:48

early on that what

40:51

I wanted to do when I got out was

40:53

to help people. I wanted to be

40:55

that person to motivate people,

40:58

to let them know that you might

41:00

think you're

41:02

at your lowest point now and you can't get out of

41:04

this hole, but you can. I was

41:06

once you. Yeah. Look at me now. Makes

41:10

sense. Yeah. I've

41:13

said this often to people, if I was at

41:16

high school, for example, and somebody like me came

41:18

in and gave a talk to the kids, wow,

41:22

that would have been amazing. What

41:24

an eye opener to hear this

41:26

kind of thing. Not only

41:29

back then, but now. I mean, look

41:31

how much drugs are now.

41:35

So much worse than they

41:37

were back in my day. This

41:39

is a huge message that you've got to get out there

41:41

and I'm that person to do it. I'm

41:43

that right person. Have you been having the platform to

41:46

do that? Have you been able to do that? I've

41:48

just started to, yeah. What are you doing? I

41:50

went into, well, I

41:52

spoke to people that were, well, drug

41:56

addicts and alcoholics. That was my first gig that

41:58

I had. Talking

42:01

to them about my stories, my struggles,

42:04

my depression, my PTSD,

42:07

my childhood, you know, just giving them the

42:10

whole story of what's happened to me and

42:12

what I've gone through. They

42:14

were blown away. They couldn't believe

42:16

it. They couldn't

42:18

believe that I'd gone from where I

42:20

once was to what I am

42:22

now. And you know, afterwards,

42:25

I was just like, thank you for coming

42:28

here. I have hope

42:30

now that I can actually do something

42:32

with my life. Do you

42:34

think that is giving, trying to give back a little

42:36

bit? Oh, 100%. Because the

42:38

person I'm seeing sitting opposite me now,

42:42

I don't think you'd really like the person that

42:44

you were that led you to being locked up

42:46

and dealing in drugs and all the dramas and

42:48

trauma that happens there. So is that in your

42:51

way trying to give something back? Yeah.

42:56

If I can give back to

42:58

people and give goodness to people and

43:01

hope and, you know,

43:03

all that type of thing, that's everything for me.

43:07

You know, I, this

43:09

is my calling, Gary. This is

43:12

what I'm meant to be doing. I

43:14

believe that, yeah, you know, I've had

43:16

a shit time, but, you know, I've done a lot to

43:18

myself as well. I've

43:20

always admitted my guilt, my wrongdoings.

43:23

I've never denied anything. But,

43:27

you know, I believe that the things

43:29

I've gone through and the struggles I've

43:31

had, maybe

43:33

I'm meant to have had them because

43:35

look at me now. Look

43:37

who I am now. Your life that makes you the person

43:39

you are now. Stephen,

43:42

you got to, the

43:44

great romance was rekindled after you got out

43:46

of prison and you got to spend some

43:48

time with Stephen. Yeah.

43:51

Yeah. Stephen and

43:53

I had been together since I was 16. I

43:56

knew straight away that I would be with this guy forever.

44:00

A year and a half ago, he

44:02

was diagnosed with terminal esophagus cancer, which

44:05

was, needless

44:07

to say, a huge,

44:12

huge punch in the face. Yeah,

44:16

so pretty much from that first day

44:18

of finding out, we knew that it's

44:22

just a matter of time. You

44:24

know, he went through chemo radiation.

44:26

He exhausted every single opportunity that

44:28

was available to him. When

44:32

we first were told that he

44:35

had cancer and it was terminal, I

44:37

quickly went to see our doctor

44:39

to find out whether euthanasia was

44:43

legal in Western Australia, and

44:45

he told me that it was. It

44:48

had been legal at that stage for about three

44:50

years. Doing

44:53

that was a sense

44:56

of relief, in a sense, because

45:01

nobody wants to suffer. Nobody

45:03

wants to be in pain. Nobody

45:05

wants to be here if they're

45:07

not here anymore. So,

45:11

Stephen went through the process of getting

45:13

approved for euthanasia. It

45:15

was quite a long process because

45:19

they have to make sure that you understand

45:21

what you're actually signing up for. So,

45:25

yeah, Stephen went

45:27

to the gym all the time. He was very

45:30

active, all that type of thing. And

45:32

he said to me once, when I can no longer

45:34

go to the gym, that's when I know that. Yeah,

45:37

very cool. Yeah, and that's what happened. They

45:40

told us that when Stephen started to get

45:42

sick, it would happen very, very quickly, and

45:45

it did. He went from being

45:48

like you and I, totally okay, to

45:51

being hardly being able to walk. That happened in

45:53

a week and a half. So

45:56

it happened very, very fast. So

45:59

yeah. you know, knowing

46:01

the day and the time

46:04

that you're going to check out, that

46:06

was a really hard, hard

46:09

thing to deal with. Yeah, I

46:11

can only imagine. I'm

46:13

in favour of assisted euthanasia because

46:15

I've seen people die and they

46:18

want to die but they're scared to die and they

46:21

can't die. But yeah,

46:23

I can, in the same regards as much

46:25

as I'm in favour of it, I can see how difficult

46:27

it would be. You've got five days

46:29

left, four days left. And that's what it was. You

46:32

know, the

46:34

actual day itself, like,

46:38

yeah, I thought

46:40

I'd been through some heavy shit but

46:43

that day doesn't compare to

46:45

anything else in my life that was the

46:47

hardest thing I've ever, ever had to

46:49

go through. I can only imagine. Yeah, just,

46:52

yeah, devastating. To lose your best

46:54

friend, the love of your

46:56

life, you know, yeah, horrible. Well,

46:58

it sounds like it's a beautiful

47:00

romance that you two can stay

47:02

together from childhood through to this

47:04

and everything in between. So you've

47:06

got those memories but yeah, I

47:09

can imagine how difficult it would

47:11

be for you. So is life

47:13

looking good for you at the moment? It

47:16

is, yeah. Look, just

47:18

published my book in Feb. Okay,

47:21

I asked this, where do you get the book?

47:26

So it's available in quite a lot

47:28

of places. So on my website, Amazon,

47:32

a lot of other

47:34

bookstores online, audiobooks, there's an

47:37

audiobook, Kindle, yeah, it's everywhere.

47:39

Yeah, and we talked about the audiobook,

47:41

that's you actually narrating the audiobook. So

47:43

that, yeah. Good on you.

47:45

Yeah, thanks. That's a big task in itself. It

47:47

was. Well, look, I, on

47:50

iCatchKills, we get all sorts of people that

47:52

come in and all different stories and that,

47:55

I like stories where people turn their lives

47:57

around. I like stories where people have hit

47:59

rocks. bottom. I'm not enjoying that they've hit

48:01

rock bottom but showing that you can turn

48:03

your life around no matter how low you've

48:06

gone and I think your story certainly encapsulates

48:08

that but it doesn't matter where you are

48:10

you can turn it around. Yeah

48:12

for sure. All the best

48:14

for the future. We'll wrap it up here but I've

48:17

really enjoyed the chat and thanks for making time to

48:19

come and see us because I know you're busy at

48:21

the moment and good luck with your future. Yeah

48:23

thank you nice to meet you. Cheers.