0:00

Peter, Michael, what do you know about

0:02

online dating? I'm a big fan

0:04

because getting brutally judged by 100

0:06

people every single day is my love language.

0:22

So as Peter mentioned a couple bonus

0:24

episodes ago, we still don't really know what the format

0:26

of the bonus episodes is going to be. So

0:28

while we're in this interregnum period, we

0:31

basically have like a bunch of leftover research

0:34

that Peter did for the game and I did

0:36

for The Rules. We didn't really

0:39

get a chance because these books are fairly old

0:42

to talk about the paradigm

0:43

shift from traditional

0:46

or, you know, since the 1950s

0:48

style dinner and a movie dating to

0:50

online dating. I read an entire

0:53

extra book for The Rules podcast that I

0:55

didn't get a chance to mention. And we

0:57

just thought it would be fun to have a kind of freewheeling

1:00

conversation about this

1:02

shift and what it means and

1:04

what we've been reading and our

1:07

deranged stories of online dating.

1:08

And by extra research, what

1:11

Michael means is that he read

1:14

countless studies about the impact of online

1:17

dating on our collective

1:19

psychology. And I

1:21

went on the most toxic subreddits I could find

1:24

for weeks on end and I'm ready to

1:26

talk about it now.

1:27

I can tell this is happening because every

1:29

time I've texted you in the last two weeks, you've waited four hours

1:31

to get back to me. Damn, I'm

1:33

really I'm really into Peter. What what's happening

1:36

with my feelings? The longer I wait to

1:38

text Michael back, the stronger

1:40

my position on the podcast becomes. When

1:45

when when you double text, that's when I know that

1:47

I'm the main host.

1:48

So since we so often talk

1:50

about bad graphs and charts on

1:52

the show, I wanted to start by sending you

1:54

a good chart that is actually

1:57

genuinely pretty interesting. So I'm going to send this to you

1:59

and I will let.

1:59

you describe the story

2:02

that it tells. Okay. The

2:05

title of this chart is How Heterosexual

2:07

Couples Have Met, data from 2009 and 2017. And

2:12

it's a

2:13

graph that maps

2:16

actually from 1940 to roughly present. And you

2:18

can see starting a

2:23

little before the year 2000 and

2:26

then skyrocketing. Met

2:28

online. So like met

2:31

through friends,

2:33

decline starting in 1990. Fucking

2:35

tanks. Yeah. It goes from like 35%

2:38

of couples met each other through friends to 20%

2:41

of couples met each other through friends in the space

2:43

of like 15 years, which is crazy. Right.

2:45

And yeah, met online is now the

2:48

plurality. It looks like. It's

2:49

also very interesting that it's mostly cannibalizing

2:53

met through friends. Met through church

2:56

is relatively standard.

2:59

The met in school or met through

3:01

family have both been declining basically

3:04

since 1940. Just steadily like people don't

3:06

meet

3:06

through family. People don't marry their high school

3:08

sweethearts the way that they used to. So these are like

3:10

much more longstanding trends. Met

3:13

through coworkers appears to have declined quite

3:16

drastically in the 1990s.

3:18

Part of that is probably like sexual harassment

3:21

and like more of these kinds of policies at

3:23

work.

3:23

Sexual harassment is ruining

3:26

love in the workplace. You could easily

3:28

do like a Ben Shapiro podcast like out

3:30

of this graph. Absolutely. But

3:32

then, OK, so I actually did a lot of research on like this

3:35

paradigm shift and like what it means. So

3:38

there's basically a couple of different waves

3:39

of increases in online

3:42

dating. Match.com is founded

3:44

in 1995. We then get OKCupid in, I believe, 2003. That's when like it

3:50

goes kind of more mass market. Before this, it was like

3:52

it was seen as very sketchy. And the rules

3:55

actually has like a kind of interesting chapter

3:57

on online dating where it's all like safety tips.

3:59

But there's now been this rolling snowball that

4:02

the more people do online

4:04

dating, the more appealing online dating is, right? Because

4:06

that's not seen as something

4:07

for weirdos. So it has this

4:09

big jump up in the OKCupid

4:11

era in the early 2000s, and then it has another very

4:14

significant leap up when smartphones

4:16

take over. So Tinder is founded in 2012. And then

4:19

we're really off and running because the

4:22

modern generation of dating apps essentially narrow

4:26

the information about dating partners, potential dating

4:28

partners down to the things that people

4:30

actually care about, which is like, what do you look like?

4:32

And how close are you to me? Like

4:34

how much of a hassle is it

4:36

going to be to meet up with you? I can't believe there's

4:38

just like an app for relationships. And we let that

4:40

happen, you know, like just like

4:43

a human human engagement app.

4:45

It

4:49

is something so fucking capitalistic

4:51

about the whole thing. Right. Left or right?

4:54

Left or right? Quick. Do you

4:56

like them?

4:56

It used to be sort of integrated into the rest

4:58

of your life, right? Like it could happen organically

5:01

and now it's just like a completely separate activity

5:03

that you do. There were moments in

5:05

my life when I would just be like hungover

5:08

on a Sunday morning eating Doritos

5:11

in bed, like swiping left on

5:13

some poor girl. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like

5:16

no, no, lives in Hoboken. That's a big

5:19

no from me. That

5:23

thing is that even as you're commodifying everybody

5:26

else, it's still so fucked up to think about how they're commodifying

5:28

you. Right. That someone glances at a photo

5:30

of me for like a tenth of a second. There's like, nope.

5:33

Ouch. But of course that's what I'm doing to everybody else. If you

5:36

saw a montage of everyone

5:39

seeing your profile and swiping left

5:41

or right, it would ruin your life.

5:44

This is another thing with like ghosting, I

5:46

feel like, where obviously it's like it's rude

5:48

behavior to just kind of disappear on somebody. But

5:51

also I have had people tell me why

5:53

they don't want to see me again. And like, it

5:55

really hurts to know the specific reason and

5:57

I kind of like the plausible deniability.

6:00

of like, oh, maybe that person's like dog

6:02

died, and that's why they didn't text me back, which is not

6:04

fucking true, and like, I know it's not true, but

6:07

unless I have confirmation of it, I can

6:09

just like tell

6:09

myself that. Right, I once

6:11

got an email after like,

6:14

a couple months of like a friends with benefit situation

6:17

with like a full accounting

6:20

of

6:20

like every reason, ranging

6:23

from like her own introspection

6:26

to like my problems. And I was

6:28

like, I would rather you

6:30

just text me than I'm an asshole. Yeah, yeah.

6:33

Like this is awful.

6:36

Do you remember her specific complaints? It would

6:38

like, it would sear itself into my

6:40

brain if I ever got an email. Of course I remember that. I

6:42

could almost recite the

6:44

fucking email from me. That

6:48

whole, I have like, I can tell you, I can

6:50

literally tell you what day she sent it on,

6:52

which I'm not gonna do on the off chance that she's a lister

6:54

and you will know that she's fully

6:57

living in the side of my head a decade later.

7:03

So the way that academics talk about this paradigm

7:05

shift is most

7:08

couple formation in the United States before

7:11

the advent of the internet was done through

7:13

what they call weak ties. So

7:15

your sort of pool of potential dating

7:17

partners was like friends of friends,

7:20

coworkers, friends of coworkers,

7:22

this sort of two to three degrees of separation

7:25

from people who you know, right? People who you share

7:27

institutions with, people who you're around. What

7:29

the internet allowed us to do was

7:31

to expand this circle of potential

7:34

dating partners to basically complete strangers, right?

7:37

If you live in New York City, your

7:38

potential mates are now everyone

7:41

in New York City. So you've gone from maybe 1200

7:44

potential matches to I don't know, three and

7:46

a half million. This has changed the paradigm

7:49

in a lot of ways in that people tend

7:51

to date concurrently more. Like

7:53

you would have kind of two or three irons in

7:55

the fire and everyone you're dating also

7:57

has kind of two irons in the fire in a way

7:59

that like.

7:59

was kind of seen as promiscuous

8:02

or untrustworthy or unethical

8:04

in a previous generation. It's just sort of like, well, I have two

8:06

dates in one day and she probably has two dates in one

8:08

day as well and whatever. I don't

8:10

want to say it's a necessity, but if

8:13

you're swiping and

8:15

you match with someone, unless

8:17

you stop and let that play out,

8:20

you will inevitably end up with situations

8:23

where you've matched with two people and you're chatting

8:25

with two people. I think the inevitability

8:28

of talking to multiple people on these

8:31

apps just led to it being accepted

8:33

when I think you're right.

8:34

If you described that sort of dynamic

8:36

to someone from like 15 years ago, they'd

8:39

be like, oh, God,

8:41

that's bizarre and unhealthy and

8:44

yeah, promiscuous in some regard. Dude,

8:46

a personal story. My grandparents

8:49

lied about how they met for 50

8:52

years. They told us on their

8:54

50th wedding anniversary, they had always

8:56

told us that they met on the Capitol steps because

8:58

they were both living in DC. It turns

9:01

out they actually met in a nightclub

9:03

where my grandma was there with another

9:06

guy. She was on a date with a dude and

9:08

she met my grandpa. My grandpa sort of like made

9:10

a move, like sent a risky text and

9:13

then she was like, okay. And they started dating.

9:14

He did the Charleston right

9:17

next to her and she was like, whoa,

9:20

who's this guy?

9:21

It's also very funny to me that no one in the family

9:23

ever asked any follow up questions for 50 years.

9:26

They're like, we met on the Capitol steps. None of us were ever like,

9:28

how? Why? What was it like?

9:30

We're just like, yeah, an old person story. Sure.

9:32

I'll tell you what, 50 years from now,

9:35

there will be grandparents

9:37

telling the opposite lie because they did meet on

9:39

the Capitol steps

9:41

on January 6, 2021. But

9:48

I also think, I mean, I think that there

9:50

are pros and cons of

9:53

online dating. Like it would be very silly to say

9:55

like, this is bad for society or like this is good for society.

9:58

Every technological shift is very common.

9:59

complicated, but most of

10:02

the pros and the cons come

10:04

from this shift from like third degree

10:07

friends to complete strangers.

10:09

There

10:11

is some data that interracial marriages

10:13

are increasing. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. The

10:16

idea of that is basically that when you cast

10:18

the net wider, you're not relying on your

10:20

friends. Most people have fairly homogenous friend

10:22

groups. Once you expand out to

10:25

complete strangers, it's like, well, then you can

10:27

do like people of different ages and races and

10:29

classes and like there's actually more diversity

10:31

in dating.

10:32

You call it Bumble, I call

10:34

it White Genocide. That

10:39

name wouldn't have hit as hard. It's harder to download.

10:42

Hey, are you on White Genocide? Yeah.

10:46

There's also some, I honestly

10:48

think kind of janky survey data

10:50

indicating that marital satisfaction is actually

10:53

higher for people who need online.

10:55

The idea is that you're able

10:57

to more

10:58

tightly narrow down your

11:00

field of partners to people who have like the same ideas of you.

11:03

Like I want kids and you want kids. You're like, I'm

11:05

Catholic and you're Catholic. You can be

11:07

more specific when you have more choices. There's

11:10

a lot of debate about this. A lot

11:12

of the sort of gripes about online

11:15

dating are this idea of like infinite choice.

11:17

There's just too many people out there, so you're not really going to value

11:19

the person that you're with. The other

11:22

theory of that infinite choice also

11:24

means that you're able to find somebody who's

11:26

like more tightly suited to you. You

11:28

can just put a weirdly bitter

11:31

list of demands in your profile.

11:33

I want to know the races and the types

11:35

of people you don't want to date. That's the first thing I want to learn

11:37

about you. Give me some body

11:40

types that you're not into. Exactly.

11:43

No, but honestly, like this does feel like,

11:45

obviously there's sort of, I understand the problems

11:48

of infinite choice, but the opposite

11:50

end of this is like, I don't

11:52

know, like 150 years ago, there

11:54

were towns where like

11:56

there would be one person of the

11:59

opposite sex. Yeah. That

12:01

was your age and you were like, well, that's my wife. Yeah.

12:03

Obviously. I think there's also like a

12:06

sort of second order effect

12:08

of this too, where I think the expectations of marriage

12:10

have changed over time too. I think it's become much less

12:12

of like a business-like relationship or something that

12:14

has property ownership or a business

12:16

partnership. It's much more like people are now looking

12:19

for soulmates. So it's also jacked

12:21

up the expectations.

12:22

Yeah. But then also this

12:24

shift to complete strangers

12:27

is also I think behind a lot of the downsides

12:30

of online dating. There's a

12:32

lot of studies that show an association

12:34

between heavy

12:35

use of dating apps and

12:37

higher rates of anxiety and depression.

12:40

Although of course we don't know the cause, like the

12:42

direction of the cause. It could be you're

12:44

depressed because you're on Tinder. It could

12:46

also be you're on Tinder because you're depressed. There's

12:49

also the thing of like just women being like constantly

12:51

fucking harassed and having like dick pics

12:53

sent to them and like the insane levels

12:55

of just bullshit that especially women have to deal with

12:58

on the internet. It's like, well, I'm a complete stranger. You're a complete stranger.

13:01

I can just send I can send a thousand women the same dick

13:03

pic on the chance that one of them is going to

13:05

respond positively. Although I've

13:07

never actually heard of that working, but I

13:09

think people just find it really humiliating

13:11

to be treated like this just to have other people

13:14

constantly

13:15

treating you like a stranger. Right. Like

13:18

they're canceling on you. They're saying fucked up. Like the things that people

13:20

send in these messages to each other are like really fucking

13:22

mean. It really grinds

13:25

you down. I think a lot of that really

13:27

does come from this idea of like you are

13:29

replaceable.

13:29

It also just speeds up the entire

13:32

process like in the same for the same reasons

13:34

that you're often juggling

13:37

multiple people that you're kind of dating

13:39

at once. That also means

13:42

you're experiencing an amount

13:44

of rejection. Yeah. That

13:47

someone from 1945 would

13:49

be totally unfamiliar with, let's

13:51

say, right? You're just going through

13:53

volume. Yeah,

13:54

it can become a real numbers game. I mean, dating

13:57

has always been a numbers game, but like the degree

13:59

to which it's

13:59

the numbers game has significantly

14:02

increased, right? That you match with 2,500

14:05

people and then you go on 500 first

14:07

dates and you go on 80 second dates

14:09

and you go on 30 third dates. It's like you just kind of run

14:12

through the

14:13

conveyor belt. Right. But

14:15

in that process of narrowing it down,

14:16

there's a huge amount of just like emasculating,

14:19

humiliating, terrible behavior

14:22

that you have to just accept. I'm in

14:24

this process. I've been single for the last

14:26

six months or something. And sometimes

14:28

you do meet up with people who just have this like weariness

14:31

about them. Where like you can

14:33

tell they've done this a million times and they don't

14:36

really want to be doing it. And there's like,

14:38

how many siblings do you have? Where

14:40

did you grow up? And you're like, look man, I don't

14:42

want to be here either. We just have

14:45

to get through this.

14:46

We're going to do it together. We

14:48

were talking about the, I was making a

14:50

joke about the angry profile

14:52

rant, which is a type

14:54

of dating profile you come across where like

14:56

their about section is basically

14:59

just like this super bitter, either

15:02

a list of demands or maybe like an outward

15:04

facing complaint of sorts. Yeah.

15:08

Sometimes I kind of get it. Right. Oh

15:10

yeah. Like I think if you've had like a bad few

15:12

weeks on the apps or whatever, I get

15:15

the impulse to just

15:16

pop into the

15:18

about section of your profile and

15:20

be like, ah. Can I read

15:22

you a bumble profile that I saved?

15:24

Absolutely. I cannot stop like saving

15:27

these. He's 50 by the 50

15:29

year old gay man.

15:30

He says, not interested in over 50

15:32

or anyone with depression, insomnia

15:35

or anxiety. I like my high

15:37

IQ and earning a good salary at

15:39

what I do. So if you don't, then we're

15:41

not a match. I seek to build

15:43

a life. God, I love it.

15:44

I love these people. In his mind,

15:47

there are a notable

15:49

amount of people who are bothered

15:51

by high IQs. Yes. So

15:54

much so that he's like, I'm going to put it out there. I'm

15:57

not going to lower my IQ for you.

15:59

gated like on grinder a thing

16:02

you see a lot is like no time wasters.

16:04

I'm not here for time wasters as if

16:06

someone's going to look at that and be like, ah, I'm a time waster.

16:09

Okay, this guy's not in it for me.

16:11

It's like no idiots. No

16:14

one identified. No one thinks that that's them.

16:16

So it doesn't weed out.

16:18

One guy I still, my favorite grind, this

16:20

was like a decade ago, someone

16:23

on their grinder profile just wrote hot people only.

16:25

Nice. Right. We that's

16:27

everyone. Everyone would like people

16:29

they're attracted to. To the absolute

16:31

worst part of those

16:34

profiles is when they put a physical

16:37

requirement in that you can

16:39

see in profiles. Yeah.

16:41

When people are like white people only. It's like

16:43

this is a fucking app with pictures.

16:47

So obviously the whole purpose of those types

16:49

of profiles is just to like inject

16:52

a little bit of negativity into someone's

16:54

day. Yeah, that's awful. If you're fat and

16:56

you're swiping, not only do you

16:58

have to like deal with whatever general stress

17:01

you have from being on the dating

17:03

scene, but then every now and then you get to see

17:05

someone be like, no fat

17:07

people, please. I came up in

17:09

the era of grinder where like, I

17:11

swear to God, like one in five profiles

17:13

had like no fats, no femmes, no

17:15

Asians. Right. And like people, this was so

17:18

fucked up, people would like try to be fucking

17:20

cute about it. So people would put

17:22

no rice, no spice. Jesus

17:24

Christ. To be like, no, I guess like no Asians

17:27

or Africans or like, it's not even clear to me what the fuck

17:29

that means, but it's like, so not only have

17:31

you done like the racist text, it's like,

17:34

oh, you're trying to be fucking cute about your racist

17:36

text. Right. Like, wow. You're like,

17:38

you're a complete fucking asshole. And also

17:40

you're just like not funny and like don't seem remotely

17:43

like bothered by it. I wish there

17:45

was something more

17:46

that I could do beyond blocking people.

17:48

Now, you should be able to pick one person that

17:50

you can kill through the apps. Okay.

17:52

Exactly. That's also another, I know

17:54

straight people do this, but another like genre

17:56

of online date is where they just

17:59

want to complain about online.

17:59

online dating the whole time?

18:01

Yeah, that's a thing. I always find it like a weird

18:03

sort of like Mobius strip

18:05

Escher painting of an interaction where

18:07

it's like you're on a date and you're complaining

18:10

about how hard it is to get on

18:12

a date with someone. And I'm like, right, you should

18:14

do the date. You're on

18:16

it. Yeah, I don't know that I've had

18:18

that exact experience, but

18:20

I have had online dates

18:22

where

18:23

they were like, how's Bumble going for

18:25

you or something like that? It's

18:27

funny because it makes sense. A

18:29

big part of your life is that you

18:32

are going on these dates, trying to find

18:34

someone, and then you're trying to get to know someone

18:36

and they're trying to get to know you. What's

18:39

something about you? Well, you're going

18:41

on three dates a week. That's a pretty big part of your life.

18:43

What are

18:43

your hobbies? I spend about 20 hours a week

18:46

in various stages of online dating. It

18:48

would be weird to like edit that out. Yeah,

18:50

exactly. But also it's like weirdly self-referential

18:53

to be like, dating

18:53

is going really well for me. I had sex with three people today.

18:56

What's your afternoon been like? It's

18:58

like breaking the fourth wall. Yeah, yeah,

19:00

yeah. Everyone knows that

19:03

we're all play acting to a degree, but

19:05

you don't really talk about it. One of my pet peeves

19:07

is people who do meta

19:09

conversations who are like, let's change the subject.

19:12

Or like, I don't want to talk about that. I'm always like, you

19:14

can just change the subject if you want to change it. You don't have

19:17

to say let's change the subject. You can just actually change the subject.

19:19

But you then get these people who have a

19:21

script in their heads of how the first date is supposed

19:23

to go. So you ask something and

19:25

they're

19:25

like, I don't want to talk about that on the first date. OK,

19:29

I failed the test now, I guess. Anyone

19:32

who like overtly talks

19:34

about the topic of conversation

19:37

weirds me out because then it makes me think about

19:40

the structure of the conversation rather than just

19:42

having a conversation. Yeah, I hate

19:44

that shit. That's very weird. And that's actually very

19:46

common where people are like,

19:48

expressly dictating the terms

19:50

of the conversation to you. Where you're just like,

19:52

what the hell? What the fuck's going on?

19:54

We talked about this in the game episode, but we ended up cutting

19:56

it out. But I think also because online

19:59

dating. creates this kind of numbers game, people

20:02

then try to gamify it or

20:04

make it as effective as possible. I think there's

20:06

a Ted Talk brain thing of I

20:08

wanna have the most efficient

20:09

first date. I'm gonna skip

20:11

over the small talk, I don't wanna talk about the weather, what you

20:13

do. I wanna skip to the meaningful stuff.

20:16

So

20:16

I've also gone on dates with people that

20:18

you're like, oh, how was your day? And they're like, no, no, no, no, no. What

20:21

are your three passions? What's the last

20:23

thing that made you cry?

20:24

I will be getting up and exiting

20:26

immediately. That is game

20:29

over for me. But the weird thing is like, I get

20:31

it. Cause like small talk can be fucking

20:33

excruciating, but also something

20:36

that endears you to someone else is like, can

20:38

you just make pleasant small talk

20:40

with a stranger?

20:41

Like I want someone who can like go through a

20:43

talk about the weather and not make it weird

20:45

for the other person or try to essentially make themselves

20:47

the center of attention by being like, no, no, we're gonna do my

20:50

essay

20:50

questions. What I think is

20:52

if someone gives you this like stage,

20:55

like describe your ideal vacation

20:57

bullshit. You're not gonna learn anything.

21:00

But if I ask you how was your day?

21:03

I'm gonna learn a lot about you because I

21:06

cannot be with someone who doesn't take

21:08

that as a prompt to complain about

21:10

their job. If I,

21:12

when I was on a date and I was like, how

21:14

was your day? And someone was like, it

21:16

was great. And like walks me through their

21:18

day and everything was fantastic. I'm like, no, this

21:21

is over. If someone was

21:23

like, my boss is an asshole.

21:25

I'm like, yes. Let's

21:27

talk about date number two. I'm already there.

21:30

It's like when you ask somebody what was high

21:31

school like and they're like, everything was fine. I was popular.

21:34

Like the kids, they liked me. I'm like, all right, this,

21:36

I have places to be. Check, please.

21:39

I want trauma from you. I want hurt.

21:43

But that's the point of small talk. You're

21:46

getting at the little edges of a person's

21:48

being. I actually did a decent amount of reading

21:51

on the conventions of small talk for

21:53

the

21:53

rules episode because I genuinely find small talk like

21:56

extremely interesting and you know,

21:58

everyone understands the purpose. of small

22:00

talk very differently. But one of the

22:02

reasons why these like essay question approaches,

22:05

I think they're very understandable, but they're not as

22:07

effective is that the purpose of small

22:09

talk is to speak about something very superficial

22:11

that you have in common to look for

22:14

other commonalities, right? Like, Oh, it was raining

22:16

today. Oh, I hate it when it rains. Oh, I like being inside.

22:18

I also like being inside. Then it's like, okay, we're both introverts,

22:21

right? You can zigzag your way into deeper

22:23

forms of commonality and just sort of feel somebody out

22:26

like, are you a weirdo? Do you take turns

22:28

in conversation? Yeah, yeah. You

22:30

can't sort of skip that part because

22:32

the purpose of small talk is

22:33

like an audition. Yeah. Now

22:36

I'm comfortable going deeper with this person. But

22:38

if they basically fail that test, then

22:40

you want to pull back. Right. And so whenever people

22:42

try to leapfrog it, it's always like, well, the

22:45

boring part is kind of important. Like

22:47

we have to sort of work our way up to

22:50

like, when was the last time you cried? You can't skip

22:52

to that. I need to build a rapport with you

22:54

to know that I can trust you. And a lot of rapport

22:56

is also just like, do

22:58

we have chemistry? And by chemistry,

23:01

I don't even always mean do we have things in

23:03

common? I mean, is there like a

23:05

dynamic to our conversation that I enjoy?

23:08

Do we pitter patter effectively?

23:10

How's our rat attached at? And also, is she sarcastic?

23:13

Is she feminine? Do I want to stroke her long hair?

23:16

These are the things that you're trying to determine about.

23:19

Michael, putting yourself in the straight

23:21

guy's shoes. That's just what I assume that you guys look for.

23:23

Staring across the table. Like I want

23:26

to touch her hair. Speaking of which,

23:27

do you want to talk about this toxic

23:29

subreddit that you've been reading? Female dating

23:32

strategies. Yeah. I feel like so much

23:34

of the toxicity that we see from men

23:37

on dating, like the men's rights, weirdos

23:39

and pickup artists and incels is

23:42

in some ways an output of this

23:44

rapid shift to online dating. Like

23:47

people just aren't really set up for it and

23:49

we don't

23:49

really have like rules or norms established.

23:51

Absolutely. But I have never looked

23:53

into like how this

23:56

has manifested among women

23:58

or like kind of what this looks like.

24:00

Among female oriented

24:02

online communities so

24:05

take take take me down the rabbit hole Peter