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and before you get to your chosen podcast, I

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this season, we dig into questions

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like, can video games ever

1:00

cause violence? How do you meant

1:02

to react to that? Do doc actors need

1:05

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1:07

again. And what rights

1:09

does a dead body

1:10

have? And does a board of well, bad

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people is back. Listen on BBC sounds.

1:17

BBC sounds, music, radio,

1:19

podcasts. Before

1:21

we begin, I just want to flag

1:23

that there are some moments in this episode

1:25

that you might find upsetting.

1:30

Who were the people that you'd come to live with?

1:32

The

1:32

Egyptian family, this man, and this woman, and

1:35

their daughter.

1:35

And how long did you live with them? The

1:37

entire

1:38

time that my husband was in prison, and then

1:40

three more months, so it's almost a year.

1:44

I've asked Humima Begum a lot

1:46

about this Egyptian man. She

1:48

says she was left in his care when her husband

1:51

Yago was taken to prison by

1:53

Isis. But she

1:55

doesn't want to tell me much about him.

1:58

That's the first time I ask. Do

2:00

you remember the friend's name? Oh, friends

2:02

are

2:02

you? The house that you stayed in. Yago's friend.

2:05

can't remember. He was an Egyptian guy.

2:07

Egyptian guy. Yeah. Then

2:09

we meet again, and I ask a second

2:11

time, you said

2:13

that you and your husband stayed

2:16

with an Egyptian family. Yeah. Do you remember

2:18

any of their names or anything like

2:20

that? No. Any of their cannulas? No.

2:22

Okay. Weeks

2:24

later, I ask a third time. What

2:26

were their names? Okay.

2:31

And they were Egyptian. Yeah. And you don't know the

2:33

real names. No. Finally,

2:36

she tells me that his tenure the name

2:38

he went by was Abu Khomra.

2:41

But little else, and almost

2:43

a year later, I'm still

2:46

asking about

2:47

him. Do you know what he did

2:49

in Isis?

2:50

No. What

2:52

was his personality

2:53

like? He was really nice. It's really

2:55

nice to me. It was like a father figure in a

2:57

way?

2:58

Really? Yeah. You

3:00

say it was like a father figure. What what do you

3:02

mean by that? 2 always taking care of

3:04

me, always checking up on

3:06

me, always asking if I need anything, you

3:08

know, always telling me not to be sad, you

3:10

know, about my situation, things are gonna get

3:12

easier. So you're quite

3:14

close there. As close

3:17

as unmarried people can be in ISIS,

3:19

I guess.

3:22

Shimina Begum is fifteen years

3:24

old, living in Raca,

3:26

the capital of a terrace state and

3:29

now she's dependent on a stranger

3:31

and his family.

3:33

A month after my husband was in prison,

3:35

I suspected I was pregnant, so I just went

3:38

I asked the Egyptian guy if he can get me a pregnancy

3:40

test, so he got it for me, and I took care,

3:42

and it was positive. And,

3:45

you know, I was I was really depressed

3:47

at that time, you know. How

3:49

did it

3:51

feel just in that moment though of discovering

3:53

you were gonna become a mom? A lot of

3:55

these fears were going through my head about how I was

3:57

gonna raise this child. And if I would

3:59

raise this child properly 2 up to be

4:01

a good person, 2

4:05

months later, I I had a

4:07

miscarriage. That

4:09

must have been difficult. It was really difficult

4:11

because I I didn't understand what was

4:13

going on, you know. He loves 2 young

4:15

to understand, but then they'll woman

4:18

explained it to me. The Egyptian woman, I was

4:20

like, oh, okay.

4:21

Okay.

4:34

It's been almost eight years

4:36

since Shamima Begum arrived in Raca.

4:39

Now, I'm here, sitting on

4:41

the bank of the euphrates river. Near

4:43

where her husband Yago told me they

4:45

used to hang out together before he went to

4:48

prison. The sun's

4:50

rays bounced off the clear blue

4:52

water, is kids paddle in a small

4:54

wooden boat, and families sit

4:56

around barbecues. When

4:59

I first came here, I was in body

5:01

armor. There were homemade bombs

5:03

planted by ISIS and the streets

5:05

were littered with rubble. While

5:08

the city is still dangerous, ISIS

5:11

are no longer in control, and

5:14

that means I can search for clues

5:16

about Shamima Begum's life here.

5:19

Right now, I want to understand one

5:22

thing. Who is

5:24

Abu Khumber, the Egyptian man

5:27

she lived with? I'm

5:31

Josh Baker, and from BBC

5:33

Science and Radio 5 Live. This

5:36

is the Shamima Bacon story.

5:38

Series two of I'm not a monster.

5:42

2 six. Father

5:44

figure.

5:53

So I think we all pile in this car.

5:57

Okay. Let's just work out where we're going

5:58

now. My hunt for Abu Kamra

6:01

started months ago. First

6:03

producer Saronite scoured more than

6:05

a thousand ISIS documents looking

6:07

for any trace of him. We found

6:09

nothing. Then we reviewed propaganda,

6:12

videos, tweets, ISIS, newspapers,

6:15

and magazines. We didn't find

6:17

it there either. So for

6:19

the last few weeks, we've been trying

6:21

good old fashioned boots on the graphic journalism.

6:24

We've compiled a list of places that foreign

6:26

isis members went to in Raca, and

6:29

we're checking each one.

6:31

Because there's no zoliter. All these science medical

6:33

places.

6:34

Yeah. Most of them are doctors, but

6:36

there's, you know, the odd like

6:38

business as well

6:39

We try a doctor's surgery. Maybe

6:42

they'll have some record of

6:43

him. You

6:43

can cross that off. No. They

6:45

don't. Where is a sweet shop. So

6:48

the map says it's down the road.

6:50

Come on. Let's go.

6:52

Next is sweet shop that apparently

6:54

foreigners loved because it's sold what I'm

6:56

told was a Jihadi

6:57

favorite, Natella.

6:59

I'm just trying to ask him about the mohrabda.

7:02

They

7:02

don't want a talk. So

7:03

there's a shop on Tababian Street.

7:05

And it's all to go to because all the guys used to go

7:08

find the trainers

7:08

there.

7:09

Then a trainer store that I've been

7:11

told was popular with the group. Did you

7:13

ever hear of somebody called Abu Kumbra? The

7:16

shop owner tells me he had CCTV

7:18

that recorded ISIS members who came

7:21

here. I get it cited, but

7:23

then he tells me ISIS made him

7:25

destroy it.

7:26

They're just looking for a needle in a haystack.

7:29

Or

7:30

a needle

7:30

in a stack of needles. Should

7:33

we try the restaurant? We

7:36

also try estate agents Internetcasts

7:39

and even a photo store that made

7:41

ISIS ID

7:42

cards. This is a long shot, but do you

7:44

think anywhere on an old memory

7:46

card somewhere, you might have

7:49

any pictures from that

7:50

time? He doesn't.

7:52

Does he know anyone who might be able to just

7:54

help us so that he could ask? Next,

7:57

we go to an organization that's helping

7:59

women who were with the terror group to

8:01

reintegrate back into the

8:02

community. We end up speaking

8:05

to seven former ISIS members,

8:07

did I ever hear of a

8:15

I know a lot of Egyptians, but I've never heard the

8:17

name of Is Abel Khomra quite a

8:19

rare name?

8:24

Matthew. I've never heard that name before,

8:26

and people call themselves all

8:28

sorts of things, but I've never heard of

8:31

of that.

8:32

None of them can help. After

8:35

a few weeks in Syria searching for

8:37

the man Shamima Begum lived with,

8:39

we get a tip-off about a woman

8:41

who lives in the center of Raca. We're

8:44

told she might still be with Isis.

8:47

And that she's dangerous. But

8:50

we're also told that she might know

8:52

Shamima

8:53

Bagan. Her husband Yago, and

8:55

Abu Kumbra. So when

8:57

we go in, I won't be that

9:00

far from you. And

9:02

the cars are obviously outside in

9:04

a position where they can drive away easily

9:06

Uh-huh. -- if we experience any aggression

9:09

from this person.

9:11

We're just gonna leave. Okay?

9:12

Yeah. Sounds like a plan.

9:14

But what's our opening line though? So

9:17

I think you're just very honest and say, look, I'm

9:19

trying to find out about somebody I know.

9:21

I'm hoping that you might be able to help me.

9:24

Okay. So I'm wondering if you can help me.

9:26

That's kind of how we start with.

9:28

Yeah. It's that I'm

9:29

trying to figure out if

9:31

this young girl lived here

9:34

a few years ago.

9:35

I would just get to showing her picture as

9:37

soon as you can. Okay. Shamima

9:40

first, build from Shamima

9:42

Yago, the others. Okay.

9:45

Cool.

9:50

After stepping off a dusty street,

9:53

Sara and I walk into the dark corridor

9:55

over apartment building and climb

9:57

thick stone steps.

9:59

Is

10:00

it this one or is it not? Yeah. It's

10:01

this one. This one here? Yep. That's

10:04

what we were told.

10:09

The door creaks open and a woman's face

10:11

appears carrying a cold look.

10:14

She stares intensely.

10:22

Sara apologizes if she's caught her

10:24

at a bad time.

10:26

And explains she's looking for people who

10:28

used to live in the neighborhood. When

10:31

she takes out have fun and start showing

10:33

the woman pictures. First,

10:36

Shamima Bagan. It's an immediate

10:38

no.

10:39

Next, her husband Yago. The

10:42

woman takes her time looking at this picture.

10:45

She says he looked familiar, but

10:48

she can't be sure. Then

10:54

Sara asked 2 Abu Kamra Instantly,

10:59

the woman's mood changes. She looks

11:02

shocked and alarmed. She

11:06

turns to someone in the apartment and

11:08

asks them to phone a man called a booty

11:10

so he can come here and deal with

11:12

this.

11:13

Let's go. Oh,

11:15

come on. Okay. Got

11:19

it.

11:23

Must have let's go. Let's

11:25

go right now. Come on.

11:28

Yello. Yes.

11:30

Let's just go. She

11:33

got aggressive. Can we leave?

11:37

We're all in the coffee. We need

11:39

to meet by the area. Is

11:42

he

11:42

okay?

11:42

Yeah. Yeah. No. I'm fine. It

11:44

just sounded like we hit a nerve.

11:47

Yeah. Okay. Well, look, we've we've tried it.

11:49

We can cross it off the list and we know that

11:51

she's probably quite a dangerous person to be pointed.

11:54

Yep. Great. Let's go to someone

11:56

else.

11:57

Just gonna have some tea. Yeah. Let's

11:59

have sugar, please.

12:07

It's proving almost impossible

12:09

to find out anything about the man

12:11

Shamima Begum lived with.

12:14

So I start thinking about who else he might

12:16

have interacted with. It

12:18

dawns on me that even in the so

12:20

called caliphate, you had to pay water

12:22

and electricity bills. Maybe

12:24

that's a way to get information. We

12:32

pull up a building that appears to have

12:34

been obliterated in an airstrike.

12:37

More than ten thousand were destroyed

12:39

in Raca. Nearby,

12:41

we meet a man, I'm calling Bilal. He's

12:44

an electricity provider. And

12:46

he's hench, tall, tattooed,

12:49

broad shouldered, and tough looking.

12:52

All this is supposed with a photo

12:54

of a cute looking child on his

12:55

phone. I say you're baby.

12:58

Sara translates for us. Lovely

13:00

eyes.

13:03

It's so pretty. No, sir.

13:06

And then the same as mine, though. Yeah. Very similar.

13:11

I'm I'm very grateful talking to you because

13:13

I think you have a very unique perspective.

13:16

Can

13:16

you tell me a little bit about what you

13:18

did? So when ISIS came to

13:20

the city. What was your life like?

13:25

I'm a businessman and I work

13:28

in women's clothing. When

13:30

things started becoming unstable, a

13:33

lot of things changed. Mannequins

13:35

were banned. Women had to

13:38

sell clothes to women. The type

13:40

of clothing that was being sold changed.

13:44

So things became really restricted for

13:46

me. My business obviously got impacted.

13:51

And we tried to talk to

13:53

ISIS. I honestly felt

13:55

like the news was getting tighter

13:57

around my neck. So

13:59

how did you then start to think? Okay.

14:02

I'll go into

14:02

the electricity business. But

14:04

has there the metro bed?

14:06

I thought to myself, this would actually

14:08

be a project they wouldn't interfere

14:10

with because everyone needs electricity

14:13

and they're gonna need me. Belayo

14:16

tells us he ended up providing electricity

14:18

to around five hundred houses

14:20

in a neighborhood that ISIS members

14:23

started moving

14:23

into. It meant he had to

14:26

deal with them directly.

14:27

Can I show you some pictures? Did you ever

14:30

see this man? This is Yago. Go.

14:34

Next.

14:37

On Ahmed, Shamima. He

14:40

doesn't recognize our photos of Yago

14:42

or Shamima Baygan. And point's act

14:45

that under ISIS, women were

14:47

fully covered when they left the house

14:49

and couldn't mix freely with men.

14:51

So we finally ask

14:53

about a big camera. He's

15:07

Egyptian.

15:08

Sorry's mask just dropped.

15:11

Can you tell me about him? Like,

15:17

He was living in this neighborhood and

15:19

he's a horrible person. Bilal

15:22

tells us that Abu Khumra was from

15:24

Egypt, was married, and

15:26

that he had foreigners living with him,

15:29

which matches what shamimababatum taught

15:31

me. After months

15:33

of searching, we finally found

15:35

a trace of an abucoma. And

15:38

better than that, but now knows where

15:40

he lived because he maps

15:42

the different buildings that he provided electricity

15:45

to. He offers to drive

15:47

us there.

15:55

This whole area is an area

15:57

I supplied electricity 2.

15:59

Okay. So you've got all these buildings see

16:04

at Monday.

16:04

That building on the left had a lot of important

16:07

people. There are keys who were mirrors

16:09

and commanders. 2,

16:11

sandy colored buildings with grand balconies

16:14

line the road. Balau says

16:16

this was a nice neighborhood and a lot

16:18

of westerners lived

16:19

here, including from Britain.

16:24

Look at this. This is Abu Kamara's house. This is Abu Kamara's house.

16:26

This is Abu Kamara's house. No.

16:29

You can see it. It's When can can can

16:32

can can can can

16:34

can can can can

16:36

can stuck in floor, so not the ground floor,

16:38

the one above

16:39

it.

16:39

Oh, wow. This has been hit by an explosion, hasn't

16:42

it? We

16:43

can see it's four floors. Was it quite

16:45

a nice building before it was hit with the fighting?

16:47

Was it quite a summons of the island?

16:50

Yeah. We can get out. Don't

16:52

worry.

17:00

So this building had

17:03

a rocket hit the

17:06

right side of the building. This

17:10

whole building was full

17:12

of ISIS people. None of the original

17:15

residents remained here. ISIS

17:17

took it over fully.

17:20

While Balau doesn't know if

17:22

Shamima Begum lived here, he's

17:24

certain that this was the home of the Egyptian

17:27

man who lived with foreigners and went

17:29

by the name of Abu Kumbra. I

17:32

look at the apartment and try to compare

17:34

it to what Shloomis told me about where she

17:36

lived.

17:37

I don't know. just like a normal house, like a normal

17:39

apartment house, four floors, not that

17:41

high. I mean, I think it's bomb now.

17:45

How many grooves? Three. So

17:47

it's like a three bed flat? Yeah.

17:50

Do you have like a courtyard or anything?

17:52

No. It had balcony seating like each

17:54

room.

17:58

The building looks similar to what Shamima

18:00

Begum describes. Four floors,

18:03

and the apartment had three balconies. The

18:07

lao points to some writing on the wall in

18:09

red

18:10

paint. It's the name of the

18:12

man who lived here before Abuqam

18:14

removed in.

18:18

He was so rude to

18:20

all the locals. He used to treat everybody

18:23

from the neighborhood horribly. He'd

18:25

look at them all like they're basically infidels

18:27

and that he's like holier than all of

18:29

them. The person whose

18:32

house Abocamira lived and didn't

18:34

leave the city. Abocamira kept

18:37

chasing him until he kicked him

18:39

out of his house. So they physically

18:41

forced somebody out and occupied

18:43

his flat.

18:45

The door to the apartment is blocked, so

18:47

we head back outside. Bilal

18:50

has to leave. He's needed back at work,

18:52

but we agreed to meet again.

18:55

Obsit the flat is a small workshop.

18:58

Ask him if he's getting an engine.

19:02

A chat to a guy who's repairing part

19:04

of a bus. He's been watching

19:06

us and offers to help us get inside.

19:11

I pause for a moment. While there

19:13

might be information in there about Abracura,

19:15

Shamima Begum, or ISIS, It

19:18

was one someone's home. I don't

19:20

want to be disrespectful,

19:22

but the

19:22

man assures us it's fine to go in.

19:25

It's a ruin. So I

19:27

decide to try. You will

19:29

not That's getting a ladder.

19:35

The only way is to somehow get

19:37

onto the balcony of the blown up building.

19:40

It's two stories up.

19:42

From here.

19:43

I don't know if there's some work. We

19:46

almost need

19:47

to find along the ladder. Suddenly,

19:49

the man runs off. Guys, I

19:52

think you want come here. So

19:56

there's a man literally reversing a

19:58

bus into a corner.

20:01

So we can try and climb

20:03

on it. It's

20:09

a bit dangerous.

20:12

He hops out and positions the ladder against

20:14

the bus.

20:15

Josh is climbing off the

20:17

bus.

20:18

We climb up. He

20:22

turns into Elsara. She's too short to

20:25

follow. She stares at him.

20:27

Now I 2 go because he told me I can't

20:29

do it.

20:29

Before zooming up the ladder in a matter

20:32

of seconds. Thanks.

20:36

Next, the man pulls the ladder up

20:38

and places it across what must be at

20:41

least an eight foot gap to the flats

20:43

balcony. Oh

20:45

my gosh. I could get him.

20:47

But if I slip, I'll hit the ground. To

20:50

say it looks precarious would

20:53

be an under

20:53

statement.

20:54

No. That's an electricity gate. Please,

20:56

Catherine. I take a deep breath.

20:58

Tell myself there might be some semblance

21:00

of Shamima Begum's life in there. And

21:03

then crawl across the ladder. As

21:09

Sara follows, k?

21:12

Just stay there for me guys once I just wanna look

21:14

in both rooms before we go in. It

21:16

may sound dramatic. But I checked

21:18

for explosive devices. Isis

21:20

planted them through anchor city. It

21:24

seems okay. We

21:27

start to search through the ruffle. So

21:31

there's one that's cheese. That

21:38

to me, looks like a Russian or ketchup 2

21:40

Arabic language book. Guys,

21:46

I'm literally gathering everything I find. We're

21:48

writing on it into a box. It's

21:54

nothing in that corner. Awesome.

22:00

Some sort of ISIS news paper.

22:05

We comb through the entire flat

22:08

or what's left of it and

22:10

gather together all the books

22:12

paperwork, and newspapers we can

22:14

find. Anything that might be linked to

22:16

ISIS. But It's

22:21

too dangerous to sit and read them in

22:23

a building that's falling apart after

22:25

an airstrike.

22:37

We've just gone for hour less.

22:40

Back at our apartment, we start to

22:42

go through what we found. Oh,

22:45

god.

22:46

Yeah. That's gonna strike new minds. Uh-huh.

22:49

Everything is covered in dust.

22:53

Why did we bring this? Oh,

22:55

no. They think I just in a moment of,

22:58

like,

22:58

year. Chaotic energy. I

23:01

just put it.

23:02

Like, what is this? This is Cameron.

23:05

You use it for cooking? It

23:07

is definitely not useful to

23:09

us. So in your moment of gathering documentation,

23:11

you've decided to pick up a multi year

23:13

old food product has been for

23:15

an explosion and was already seemingly half

23:17

used.

23:18

Yeah. There's that set. Okay.

23:21

Moving on. Okay.

23:27

This is like this is an Islamic

23:29

state. Thank you. What's it, sir? The

23:32

heading here says, a book

23:34

of advice and direction

23:37

for the soldiers of the caliphate.

23:41

Well, copies of it? You

23:43

are oh, this is interesting rule number eight.

23:45

It is prohibited in all

23:47

circumstances

23:49

to carry or use mobile

23:51

phones in any of

23:55

the Islamic State's headquarters.

24:01

This is from Isis's magazine,

24:04

another analyst basically shows

24:07

the highlights of their operations in

24:09

Mosul and Iraq in the last six

24:11

months. So four hundred and

24:13

one suicide missions, destroying

24:15

one thousand and six hundred seventy five military

24:19

Military vehicles.

24:20

Of course. Because it's got tanks and things like that.

24:22

Exactly. We

24:25

keep searching. There are loads of

24:27

Islamic state group documents and

24:29

books on military tactics.

24:34

This is Islamic state, real

24:36

estate. What

24:38

people love their homes, their homes

24:41

would be fair game for

24:43

the fighters to occupy. What

24:45

this looks like is kind of an

24:47

application. Stating that

24:49

somebody had left their home and

24:52

somebody wants to take it over. You

24:54

have to take if these things are there

24:56

or not. So it's just

24:57

like, car pits, mattresses,

25:01

fridge, freezer.

25:05

It's literally a formalized bureaucratic

25:08

way to take over someone time. Yeah.

25:10

They have blankets, sheets,

25:13

pillows,

25:15

everything. I mean, there's like closet

25:18

with clothes to others.

25:20

They're trying to take somebody's house and

25:22

they've still got their clothes in their closet. Yeah.

25:26

Jamima wasn't just living in a terrorist

25:28

group, choosing living in a, like, highly

25:30

organized bureaucracy, where

25:33

even the taking of someone's

25:35

home and their livelihood is

25:38

essentially organized through paper and

25:40

applied for, so you can't come back.

25:43

The disparity of ISIS is far beyond

25:45

the physical violence.

25:47

It goes right into this fabric of how

25:49

a society has run. It's

25:52

kind of sad to think she was in

25:54

a way actively seeking that out

25:56

or convinced that it was the thing for her.

25:58

Yeah. It is upsetting. It's

26:01

like evidence of it's

26:03

just injustice. This also injustice

26:05

to the most granular level, isn't it closed

26:08

and covered? We'll take

26:09

those. Yeah. And like the entitlement, you

26:12

have to feel, to just

26:14

do that and be

26:16

okay with it.

26:23

While we don't find anything that links directly

26:25

to Jamima Begum. These

26:27

documents show some of what ISIS

26:30

did to the local population. The

26:32

terror group came here, took over the

26:34

city, stole people's homes and

26:36

put their followers inside. Foreigners

26:39

like Shamima Begum had somewhere to

26:42

live because others

26:43

suffered. Her very distance

26:45

in Raca was dependent on the

26:47

terror group.

26:50

How did you survive financially?

26:53

I mean, my husband had money, so

26:55

we just

26:57

Yeah. So he was being paid

26:59

as a soldier. Yeah.

27:03

When we were in the house with

27:05

Abocameral, and my husband went to prison,

27:08

he was still getting

27:09

money, but I will come around as the one

27:11

receiving the money and keeping it, you know.

27:14

But money was allocated to you

27:16

for your life -- Yeah. -- from my this.

27:18

Yeah. So to some degree, you know,

27:20

a a terrorist organization is paying you

27:22

money then?

27:24

Not me directly, but it

27:27

they're contributing for your upkeep, your

27:29

living, your ability to

27:30

eat?

27:30

I guess, yeah. So

27:32

there is a benefit that getting from being

27:35

a member of ISIS. I don't

27:38

want to answer that. Why not?

27:40

Just because

27:50

I get to meet Bilal, the electricity provider,

27:53

a few more times in Raca, and

27:55

he shows me different places in the

27:57

neighborhood. There's his

27:59

generators not far from where Abu

28:01

Kupron lived.

28:02

Should go in? Could be. A

28:04

restaurant that's known for its chicken.

28:07

It was popular with ISIS members apparently.

28:10

We go through a drive and he points to a building

28:12

that used to be a woman's gym.

28:17

He was fixing the electricity. And

28:20

it turned out that it was a prison where

28:23

held

28:24

people before they went off for

28:26

execution. We

28:29

passed by Abocumra's house and turned right

28:31

onto a wide street. He

28:33

points to a large apartment building

28:35

less than two hundred meters

28:37

away. Balau says It

28:39

was a slave market. It's the

28:41

way yazidi women were auctioned and

28:43

sold. He used

28:45

to walk past and see them.

28:48

It's where ISIS sold women and children

28:50

from the yucidi religious minority. They'd

28:52

kidnapped thousands of them from Iraq,

28:55

and forced them into sexual slavery.

28:57

They also killed thousands more in

29:00

a genocide.

29:01

They held a lot of people there. They

29:04

were so scared to be taken away. It's

29:06

as if they were going to die, then she'd

29:08

be bought by an ISIS

29:10

man and kinda dragged out by

29:12

her hair. People treated

29:15

so badly they were monsters with necessities

29:18

and you would hear people screaming at

29:20

night.

29:23

The slave market is a stark

29:25

reminder of the horrors that were perpetrated

29:28

by the group Shamima Begum was part

29:30

of. I ask

29:32

Bilal if he can tell me anything more

29:34

about the man she lived

29:36

with. Just describe

29:39

come right to me like, what did he look like? So

29:44

he had a permanent scalp. I

29:47

would come to pay the bills and

29:49

he'd asked him who should I

29:52

address this invoice to and he

29:53

said, address it to me. Was responsible

30:02

for arming people

30:04

or arms.

30:08

When there would be a battle or a fight

30:10

or anything, he would be the one providing

30:13

the arms or providing the bombs

30:16

or providing the TNT. There

30:18

were, like, warehouses

30:20

for that, and he would manage

30:22

that. As a manager

30:25

of weapons for ISIS, Abu

30:27

Khumbert would have enabled the group to fight,

30:29

maintain their rule over communities

30:32

and kill. I asked

30:34

Shamima Begum about this. We've

30:37

talked a lot about Abu Kamra. Mhmm.

30:39

So we've been told that he was arming ISIS

30:42

members. Had you ever heard

30:44

about that? No. I

30:47

how do you feel about the

30:49

idea that you were living with somebody that was providing

30:51

weapons to ISIS members?

30:54

I don't I don't know. I

30:56

mean, it I

30:59

don't know. I mean, I don't believe that, firstly.

31:02

And secondly, I don't know how Dean

31:04

was fond of the answer.

31:07

So Shamima Begum says

31:09

she doesn't believe the abacus

31:12

she lived with was an armorer. To

31:14

be fair, I can't be one hundred percent

31:17

sure he was. But after

31:19

months of research, we found only

31:21

one Abu Kamra. He

31:23

was Egyptian, like she says, had a

31:25

family and lived with foreigners in a

31:27

building similar to the one she describes.

31:31

But now the electricity provider is

31:33

certain he was an ISIS armor. And

31:35

we've recently spoken to a member of the

31:37

terror group who told us about an Egyptian

31:40

called Abu Qumra, who was

31:42

an armorer. Shamima

31:45

Begum can't tell me what the man

31:48

she lived for almost a year,

31:50

did for Isis. And she's avoided

31:52

giving me even basic information about

31:55

someone she describes as a father figure.

31:58

I don't know if her reluctance to

32:00

speak more freely is born from Trauma,

32:03

fear of what could happen to her. Or because

32:05

she has something to hide. Maybe

32:08

she doesn't want to say anything because

32:10

when she first arrived in Raca, she

32:13

was young. Vulnerable and

32:15

came to depend on this person.

32:24

Now, Shamima Begum is living inside

32:26

the caliphate. I'm curious

32:28

about what she made of life with the terror

32:30

group, What was it like

32:33

being in Racker? It almost felt

32:35

like a movie. Like I was in a movie, seeing the

32:37

roundabout with all the restaurants with,

32:39

like, food and all the men walking around

32:42

with their wives and their kids, you know, it

32:44

was it was a lot taken. It

32:46

was kind of like what I imagined, kind of not

32:48

like what I imagined. Seeing

32:50

everything and how everything was

32:52

functioning and stuff, you know, like

32:54

it was normal life. Anyway,

32:57

did it feel very different to bass and bass and bass.

32:59

It Yeah. I did. It's got lot

33:01

high. I mean, mostly the old

33:03

guns. They have a lot of

33:05

guns. And I was secondly,

33:07

it just felt more restrictive walking

33:09

around. Like,

33:11

when you go aside, you can't, like, lift up

33:13

the first layer of your bail that just shows

33:15

your eyes, you can't do that even though it's hard to, like,

33:17

walk in the street. You know, if

33:19

you do, even for one second, like, a guy from

33:21

across the street will, like, yell at you. Did

33:24

you question your decision yet? Or did

33:26

you still think you'd made the right choice? I

33:28

mean, I always in the back of my mind

33:30

was like questioning my decision by just I

33:33

knew there was nothing I could do about

33:34

it, so I just had to keep like persevering and

33:36

going on, you know, trying to live

33:39

this new life that I decided to

33:41

be a part of As

33:47

she tells me this, I feel like I'm

33:49

now getting an insight into the teenager

33:51

who was living with ice someone

33:54

who saw the world around her from the

33:56

perspective of being part of the

33:58

terror group and could just

34:00

persevere with the life she'd chosen.

34:03

Maybe this was a coping mechanism by

34:05

someone overwhelmed by the horror

34:07

of what she was part of. But

34:10

to get on with life, she'd have needed

34:12

to avoid or just accept the

34:14

brutality that was going on around

34:16

her. From the yazidis who

34:18

were enslaved, to the people of the

34:20

city who were losing their homes.

34:23

The abuse was far reaching, everyone

34:26

I've spoken to in record has a

34:28

story of enduring the group's oppression.

34:33

A young guy told me how he was beaten

34:35

by ISIS, when the group caught him

34:37

smoking. There's

34:39

the hairdresser whose business thrived

34:42

on doing beauty treatments and wedding

34:44

parties until ISIS

34:46

arrived Then she was

34:48

forced to help prepare yossity slaves

34:50

to be sold. If she failed

34:52

to do so, she'd be imprisoned or

34:54

killed. And

34:56

there's the internet cat owner who

34:59

tried to close his store because on his

35:01

way to work, he passed by the heads

35:03

of those the group had executed. He

35:05

said he was traumatized. But

35:08

ISIS needed internet caps and

35:10

threatened to kill him and his family

35:12

if he didn't reopen.

35:18

Jude said that there will be people who

35:21

suffered under ISIS who

35:23

will never be able to move on. Do

35:26

you understand what? Do

35:28

you accept that you have done something

35:30

wrong? Are coming to join ISIS?

35:33

Yes.

35:35

I do. And what is it

35:37

that you've done wrong?

35:39

Come to Syria, come to ISIS thinking that

35:42

it was the right thing to do, not fully

35:44

knowing what I was getting myself into, not

35:46

knowing that it may have an effect

35:49

on other people's lives,

35:51

my coming to Syria and my coming to ISIS.

35:53

But you can see how ISIS relies

35:55

upon people coming from around the world to

35:57

join them, to increase their notoriety, to

36:01

show or give this sense that their caliphate,

36:03

their so called caliphate is real. And

36:05

by you coming and doing that, you did provide

36:07

them some element of support. I'm

36:10

not saying that you necessarily went out and

36:12

committed

36:12

genocide, but you provided support to group

36:14

that did that. I mean, I don't agree with you. I

36:16

think a fifteen year old girl had no

36:19

impact on on ISIS and how they

36:21

work. I mean, I feel like I was very insignificant

36:23

to ISIS. I did not, in any way,

36:25

contribute to how Isis

36:28

worked or anything like that, but I think just

36:31

me coming and

36:32

thinking that it was okay, was

36:35

was wrong, was already wrong. I've

36:40

put the idea that Shamima Begum

36:43

is insignificant to ISIS to Balau,

36:45

the electricity provider.

36:51

Everyone did something

36:53

here. Everyone contributed

36:56

and everyone traded in the blood

36:58

of this city's people. 2

37:06

eight years of our lives that have been thrown

37:08

away, and we've lost so many people.

37:11

We lost the

37:12

country. We lost the life that

37:14

we lived happily. It's completely

37:16

gone. And we have so much catching

37:18

up to you.

37:22

We lost institutions. We lost schools,

37:25

we lost homes, we lost

37:27

everything because of a law called the Islamic

37:29

State. The people of

37:31

the city had ISIS imposed on

37:33

themselves. I need

37:35

people to know that this is not Islam,

37:38

that this is not our religion. This

37:41

is a country that's been sentenced to

37:43

death.

37:56

While Shamima Begum says she felt

37:58

like she was stuck inside the so called caliphate

38:00

and that she just had to get on with life

38:03

there. Someone close to

38:05

her had a very different idea

38:07

and was looking for a way out.

38:10

They wanted to escape. So

38:13

she caught me crying

38:15

saying that she was on her own and didn't

38:17

trust anyone around her at all and she wanted

38:19

to come home and could we help to

38:21

come up with plan to get out?

38:38

Thanks for listening. Please

38:40

share, rate, and review the podcast. It

38:43

really does help. And you can

38:45

email me on Josh at BBC

38:47

dot co dot u k. And

38:49

you can watch my feature length documentary, the

38:52

Shamima Bacon story. On BBC

38:54

iplay. The Shamima Bacon

38:56

story is series two of I'm

38:58

not a monster. It's written by

39:01

me, Josh Baker and Joe Kent.

39:03

We produced it together with Sara Obedat.

39:06

Our digital producer is Deepa Babali.

39:09

Field producing in Northeast Syria, by

39:12

Christopher Al Ali, working

39:14

with Hamoodi Couture and Degan

39:16

Azwari. Our production

39:18

manager is Janet Staples. Series

39:21

editor Jonathan Aspenwall, Composer,

39:24

Ferrar Zabi Faker, theme music

39:26

by Sam's Later, and it's

39:28

all mixed by Tom Britney. The

39:30

head of BBC News long form audio

39:32

is Emma Ripon. And at BBC

39:35

Science, the commissioning executive is

39:37

Dylan Haskins.

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