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0:17

Hey, this is Antonia Seregido. You're

0:19

listening to Imperfect Paradise from LAist

0:22

Studios, the show about hidden worlds

0:24

and messy realities. My

0:27

colleague, a correspondent on this show, Emily

0:29

Guerin, used to be a beat reporter

0:31

covering the environment for our station at

0:33

LAist. And she recently partook

0:35

in a tradition that only audio journalists that have

0:38

been in the game for some years get to

0:40

do. Listen back to

0:42

a story you did earlier in your

0:44

career and mercilessly judge yourself. In

0:47

2018, she reported a story about

0:49

how climate change is drying up the

0:52

Colorado River. So

0:54

I'm standing at Lake Mead right now

0:56

and the bathtub ring, which is this

0:58

really big white band that shows how

1:01

far the lake has shrunk, it's

1:03

about 130 feet tall. So

1:05

that is how low the lake is. Lake

1:08

Mead is a huge reservoir that sits

1:10

behind the Hoover Dam. It

1:13

supplies water to cities like Los Angeles,

1:15

Phoenix, and San Diego, and tons of

1:17

farms. Recently, people have

1:19

been panicking about the possibility of

1:21

the reservoir drying up so much

1:24

that no water makes it to

1:26

those places. It's what

1:28

we call Deadpool. And the

1:30

bathtub ring is a symbol of that. It

1:32

tells you just how far the water level

1:34

has dropped. That's why Emily

1:37

was there back in 2018, walking back and

1:39

forth along the Hoover Dam and talking to

1:41

herself in a microphone. Testing,

1:44

one, two, three, testing. So

1:46

I'm walking along the edge of Lake Mead. So

1:49

I'm standing at Lake Mead right now and the

1:51

bathtub ring... So I'm standing at Lake Mead, which

1:53

is the lake that backs up from Hoover Dam.

1:55

There's this 130 foot tall bathtub ring. The bathtub

1:57

ring is super visible. So I'm

1:59

standing at Lake Mead. Lake Mead, the bathtub

2:01

ring is super obvious. And that's,

2:04

the ring is what shows how far the lake

2:06

has shrunk since it was full. Oh my God, this

2:09

is so embarrassing for me to listen to now. Okay,

2:11

well this is obviously Emily Guerin, who's now joined

2:13

me. And Emily, what are you

2:15

doing in that audio we just heard? Well,

2:18

I'm trying to get the take right, so

2:20

I keep doing it over and over, and like

2:22

walking back and forth on top of the dam, and

2:25

oh my God, it's just

2:27

so cliche, Antonia. Like every journalist who's

2:29

ever reported on the Colorado River has

2:31

done a standup on Hoover Dam and talked about the

2:34

bathtub ring. I'm standing on the

2:36

top of the Hoover Dam right now.

2:38

You see those bathtub rings? The white

2:40

lines behind me, that used to be

2:42

the water level. How gigantic those bathtub

2:44

rings really are. Look how huge the

2:46

bathtub ring has grown. Well, I love

2:48

that you had to join in the club of

2:50

people who described the ring. What made you cover

2:52

it like that? That's

2:55

a good question. I think that I couldn't

2:57

think of anything more original to do, and

2:59

I also thought at the time that it

3:01

was like a really obvious visual signaling

3:03

and pending doom, and I could just like

3:05

go there and describe it and somehow convey

3:07

the nature of the crisis. But

3:10

thinking back on it, and kind of

3:12

what I've realized since then is that

3:14

the bathtub ring, A, it's like

3:16

actually not that interesting, it's just like a

3:18

white line on a rock wall. But B,

3:20

it really leaves out the juiciest part of

3:22

the story. Like there's no people in the bathtub

3:24

ring, and this is actually a

3:26

people story. Like people made this problem

3:28

and people can solve this problem. So

3:34

the way things work on the Colorado River is

3:36

that problems are solved by the seven states that

3:38

use the water. So when there's a crisis, like

3:40

there is now, they all get together

3:42

to figure out what to do. It's essentially

3:44

a negotiation. They all know they have to

3:47

use less water, but the question is how

3:49

much less and who is gonna take the

3:51

cuts. That sounds like a

3:53

really intense negotiation. It is

3:55

really intense in a sort of wonky,

3:57

dry water policy kind of way. But

4:00

to me, what makes it so interesting is that

4:02

this is one of the early cases in

4:04

the US of what happens when the shit

4:06

really hits the fan and we actually run

4:08

out of a resource. Like we can't just

4:10

kick the can down the road on the

4:12

Colorado River like we do with pretty much

4:15

every other hard climate change decision. Anyway,

4:18

so when I said this is a people story,

4:20

the people I'm talking about are these negotiators

4:22

who are trying to cut that deal. There's

4:25

seven of them, one from each of the states that

4:27

uses the water. They're like water

4:29

Avengers. They are like water Avengers. I

4:32

love that. And I decided

4:34

I wanted to follow them through those negotiations as

4:36

they come up with a plan to save the

4:38

river. I

4:42

wanted to focus in particular on the lead

4:44

negotiator from California because California is

4:46

kind of like the bully on the river.

4:48

That's sort of their historical reputation. They use

4:50

the most water. They have the biggest economy.

4:53

They have a lot of money, a lot

4:55

of people. And it's interesting because

4:57

their current lead negotiator is the youngest and

4:59

the least experienced of all of them. His

5:02

name is JB Hamby and he's 28 years old. Did

5:06

you ever think like, oh my God,

5:08

all these dudes are so much older than me.

5:10

I'm in over my head. This is crazy. Or

5:12

did you not think those thoughts? No, I didn't.

5:14

I didn't think about that. This

5:18

season on imperfect paradise, the Gen

5:20

Z water deal maker, we take

5:22

you behind the scenes of a

5:24

historic negotiation that will determine the

5:27

state of the Colorado River and everyone

5:29

who relies on it. You're affecting

5:31

people's livelihood. You're

5:34

putting people out of their homes. You're

5:36

destroying the whole community. This

5:38

is shit, John. I

5:40

mean, this is tough. This

5:43

is a historic thing coming and it's on

5:45

our shoulders to be able to resolve it.

5:47

He has a few good friends and a

5:49

lot of enemies. Probably one of

5:51

the valuable lessons I learned on the river

5:54

is nobody's going to change unless they absolutely

5:56

have to and have no other choice but

5:58

to. that

6:01

you cannot negotiate with is

6:03

mother nature. She will win

6:05

every time. Correspondent

6:08

Emily Garin takes it from here. I

6:13

first met JB Hamby at the annual

6:15

Colorado River Conference. Everyone who uses

6:18

or cares about the river is there. There's

6:20

lawyers, journalists, there's presidents of

6:22

tribal nations. This conference

6:25

is so important, even some farmers show up just

6:27

to find out what's going to happen to their

6:29

water. JB had described

6:31

it this way when I talked to him the

6:33

week before the conference, which is

6:35

officially called the Colorado River Water

6:38

Users Association Conference. But everyone

6:40

just calls it CRUA. CRUA is

6:42

like the prom of the Colorado River.

6:44

Everybody shows up and it's a big

6:46

event and everybody's there and everybody sort

6:48

of hops down and sees each other.

6:50

And it's the thing that everybody's at.

6:53

Oh my God, you described it as the prom. I

6:55

love that. Who's the prom king and the prom queen?

6:59

Who knows? I know. There

7:03

are six prom kings and one queen,

7:05

the seven lead negotiators, one

7:08

from each of the states that uses Colorado River

7:10

water. JB is one of them. For

7:13

over a hundred years, the seven states along

7:15

the river have regularly gotten together to decide

7:17

how much water they all get to use. These

7:20

negotiations take place every time a new

7:22

problem comes up, like how much water

7:24

should we let Mexico have? Or wow,

7:26

Phoenix is getting big. The

7:29

last big negotiation took place in 2007 and

7:32

there's a lot less water now than there was even

7:34

then. CRUA

7:36

takes place in December. So

7:38

for the last six months, JB and the other

7:41

negotiators have been arguing over how to keep

7:43

the river from hitting Deadpool. At

7:45

this point, they have three months left to come

7:48

up with their first attempt at a deal. If

7:50

they can't agree, nobody knows what will happen.

7:57

The conference took place at the Paris Hotel and Casino

7:59

in Las Vegas. The

8:01

hallways are lined with these massive portraits of

8:03

French royalty and overstuffed benches that are a

8:05

little too small for two people who don't

8:07

really know each other to comfortably sit on.

8:11

But that's where I sit with JB, knees almost touching,

8:13

when I finally get to talk to him

8:15

in person. He's tall,

8:17

white, with a clean shave. He's wearing

8:19

a gray suit with a lapel pin of

8:21

the state of California, a bright white shirt,

8:23

and a turquoise bolo tie. He

8:26

has a fresh haircut and boots. How's

8:28

it being like the guy from California? I

8:31

am a guy from

8:33

California. This

8:35

is JB's first conference as the lead

8:37

negotiator from California, and whether

8:39

he acknowledges it or not, there is a role

8:41

he's stepping into. If

8:44

this really were a high school prom, California

8:46

would be the rich kid with the fancy

8:48

car and the nice tux. On

8:51

the Colorado River, California uses more water

8:53

than any other state, for

8:55

watering lawns and golf courses, for drinking

8:57

water, and growing food. And

9:00

in the past, the other states have seen California

9:02

as kind of a bully, taking more water

9:04

than it's allowed to, and then being like,

9:06

what are you going to do about it?

9:10

I asked JB if he thought that perception was fair. Of

9:13

California. As

9:15

this, like, water bully, like, overusing.

9:17

Yeah, I know that's not true

9:19

at all. You don't

9:21

think so? In terms of a bully

9:23

or these sorts. I think certainly envy

9:25

is a thing. I don't

9:27

think California has done anything wrong by developing

9:30

water and putting it to use. But

9:32

it also seems like he's working hard to

9:35

overcome the state's bad reputation. When

9:38

I'm not talking to JB, I spend a lot

9:40

of time watching him. He's always

9:42

talking to someone, taking hands, making

9:44

unbroken eye contact, introducing people. Mostly,

9:46

I don't see him much. He's

9:49

always ducking in and out of these little

9:51

side rooms. There's a lot of stupid meetings.

9:54

And the room next to us here, the commissioner of

9:56

the Bureau of Reclamation just walked into a little room,

9:58

not sure who she's meeting with. and there's

10:00

side rooms and suites. I was just

10:03

in a meeting with the Colorado River

10:05

Indian tribes upstairs, and so there's all

10:07

kinds of different meetings that people take.

10:10

You know, in this main hallway here,

10:12

and in the little side nooks and

10:14

crannies, people connect, chat, have conversations, be

10:17

social, have real discussions, negotiate

10:19

informally. It's like the

10:21

shadow conference, and then the conference is in there.

10:27

So while most people are going to panels

10:29

like considering rural enhancements, JB

10:32

has been attending a different conference. I'm

10:35

here at CRUWA because of the shadow conference. I

10:38

want to know what's actually happening between the

10:40

people who have the most power on the river, and I

10:43

don't think I'm going to figure it out in

10:45

the panel discussions. I need to know what the gossip

10:47

is, and I'm trying to find the people who will tell

10:49

me. The

10:53

next time I catch JB is when he's on stage

10:55

with a bunch of California water people. We're

10:58

gathered in the champagne room for an announcement. Welcome,

11:01

everyone, to this very important historic

11:03

occasion. We appreciate everyone that's

11:05

here to join today. We're grateful to

11:07

be here today with... JB is standing at

11:10

a lectern beneath a huge crystal chandelier. The

11:13

wallpaper is turquoise and gold with

11:15

trefoils and decorative wood paneling. The

11:17

opulence of this room feels strategic, like California

11:20

is trying to make a really big deal

11:22

at this moment. JB is the

11:24

emcee. He introduces a

11:26

series of speakers, all of whom have the same

11:28

basic message. California has

11:30

certainly stepped up to protect the river systems and the

11:32

communities that rely on it. California

11:35

continues to lead by example. We're

11:38

using less water than we've ever used

11:40

in California. I think it's 3.7 million

11:43

acre feet, and that's fantastic. Deadpool is

11:45

not mentioned

11:50

once. And

11:53

then JB begins to call people up one by

11:55

one to sign all the agreements

11:57

that have been made in California over

11:59

the past six months. six months to

12:02

use less water. So next up we

12:04

have the Metropolitan Water District, the Imperial

12:06

Irrigation District, and the San Diego County

12:08

Water Authority. They walk up to the

12:10

stage. There's the boots from

12:12

the Imperial Valley, farming region, the

12:14

suits from Los Angeles, the suntanned

12:16

guys and button-downs and ties from

12:19

San Diego. They sit

12:21

next to each other, they sign, they shake

12:23

hands. They take one serious photo

12:25

and one goofy one. It's

12:27

very celebratory, very back-patting. Sadly,

12:29

there is no champagne. I

12:33

eavesdrop on a man sitting behind me who's whispering

12:35

about what a big deal this is. Afterwards,

12:38

I go ask him about it, and the woman sitting

12:40

next to him, who turns out to be his wife,

12:43

gives him this little wave and walks out of the room.

12:45

She calls herself a water widow, he says. He

12:48

spends so much time on Colorado River stuff, she

12:50

comes to conferences like this one so they can

12:53

spend some time together. Do

12:55

a test one, two, testing one, two, testing

12:57

one, two, three, four. Can

13:00

you tell me your name and

13:02

where you're from? You bet, it's

13:04

Jim Medaffir, spelled M-A-D-A, F-F, like

13:06

Frank, E-R, from San Diego. I

13:09

am a past board chair of the San Diego

13:11

County Water Authority. Have you been coming

13:13

to these conferences for a long time? Yeah, I think

13:15

this is about probably my tenth one over the last

13:17

10 years, maybe fifteenth, I can't

13:19

remember. California uses far

13:21

more Colorado River water than any other

13:24

state, mostly for raising cattle and growing

13:26

alfalfa, broccoli and lettuce. But

13:28

Jim doesn't see that as a problem. California,

13:30

you know, we don't go around saying, hey,

13:32

we've got the lion's share of the water.

13:34

What we instead say is we want to

13:36

work with everybody. We recognize the compact gives

13:38

us as much water as

13:41

it does. We also recognize the fact

13:43

that we feed the entire country. It's

13:45

not California, we feed. Who's

13:47

we when you say we? The state,

13:49

and all the produce that's grown in

13:51

those ag areas, those, for

13:53

the most part, are shipped out of California,

13:56

all over the United States. If

13:58

our water was cut off. Guess what?

14:00

There wouldn't be salads on their plates.

14:04

There wouldn't be a lot of things that

14:06

people rely on because of the water that

14:08

California uses from the Colorado River. When

14:11

Jim throws out the possibility that their water

14:13

could get cut off, it's not a hypothetical.

14:16

That's how dire things have gotten. And that's what

14:18

these ongoing negotiations are all about.

14:21

But it's still important for California to show

14:23

it's willing to use less. That's

14:25

part of why people like JB and Jim are

14:27

making such a big deal of these water

14:30

conservation agreements that were signed today. The

14:32

level of collaboration right now is at an all-time

14:34

high. And I think it's going to continue. I'm

14:37

realizing this is California's strategy at this

14:39

conference. Talking about how great they are

14:41

at saving water and working together. Relations

14:44

with San Diego, Metropolitan Imperial are

14:46

at an all-time high. All-time

14:49

high. Discontinuality

14:53

is not normal. Historically,

14:55

the boots of the suits have been at

14:57

war over California's chair of Colorado River

14:59

water. The cities always want more.

15:02

They try to buy it from the farmers, and

15:04

the farmers feel like that's an attack on their

15:06

way of life. Because if they lose

15:08

their Colorado River water, they don't have anywhere else

15:10

to get it from. But

15:12

today in the champagne room, I don't see any

15:14

hint of tension. In fact, what

15:16

I see is this small pen on the

15:18

lapel of the biggest urban water agency's

15:20

president that says, we are one. Which

15:23

seems a little bit performative. Like they're trying

15:25

to convince themselves. It's really true. This

15:28

is all about relationships. If we have good relationships,

15:30

if we trust each other, if we back each

15:32

other up, we can make anything happen to help

15:34

save the Colorado River. A

15:37

lot of people who work on the Colorado

15:39

River talk this way. The river runs on

15:41

relationships. It runs on trust. Most

15:44

of the people who work on the river have been

15:46

doing it for their entire adult lives. Have

15:49

you been coming to these conferences for a long time? I

15:52

think my first drill was 1998. So

15:55

25 years. I missed a few years.

15:59

It's a new venue. these seizures so

16:01

people are lost because these

16:04

casinos are hard to navigate. I'm

16:06

standing in the hallway outside the champagne room

16:08

just after the panel talking to Michael Cohen,

16:11

cowboy boots jeans blazer. He's

16:14

an environmental policy guy from Colorado. He

16:17

tells me I missed something interesting earlier today.

16:19

The contentious meeting of representatives from

16:21

the upper Colorado River basin. California

16:25

is considered part of the lower basin

16:27

along with Nevada and Arizona. The

16:30

upper basin states are Wyoming, Utah, New

16:32

Mexico and of course Colorado. Was that

16:34

this morning? Yeah, there was actually just

16:37

a room right over there. It seems

16:39

to be right next door. Why was

16:41

it contentious? Because there's still assertions from

16:44

the upper basin. The lower basin is

16:46

overusing water and it

16:48

depends how that's measured. But that

16:52

to me suggests that they're still far apart

16:54

and how they're gonna resolve this huge

16:56

problem how to manage the river moving forward.

16:59

So like in this room they're like look at everything we've done

17:01

and in that room they're like you guys are still using

17:03

too much? Yeah that's exactly right. And

17:07

I think part of this conversation is in

17:09

response to their conversation. They're like talking at

17:12

the same time. Through the wall basically. Yes

17:14

they're talking through the wall to each other

17:16

and maybe the walls a good metaphor because

17:18

they're not really talking to each other. The

17:22

divide between the upper basin and the lower basin

17:25

is another one of the big fault lines on

17:27

the Colorado River. The two

17:31

basins are extremely different. The upper

17:33

is colder, higher, with snowier mountains

17:36

and smaller cities and farms. The

17:39

lower is hotter, drier, flatter, with

17:41

way more people and bigger farms.

17:44

For the most part the upper basin puts the

17:46

water in and the lower basin takes it out.

17:50

When the Colorado River was divided up on

17:52

paper a hundred years ago the upper and

17:54

the lower basins each got about half the

17:56

water. It's not divided evenly between

17:58

the states by the way. California, for

18:00

example, gets about 14 times as much

18:02

water as Nevada. But

18:05

in real life, the lower basin has often

18:07

used more than its chair, because the upper

18:09

basin has never needed all of theirs. Still,

18:12

the upper basin kind of always assumed

18:14

the water would be there for them when they got

18:17

around to needing it. But now

18:19

it's not. Climate

18:22

change has shrunk the river. There's no more

18:25

extra water to use. So

18:27

now there's this huge fight between the two

18:29

basins about who should cut back and how

18:31

much. We have to build trust back

18:33

up again, and I think they're still working on that. Can

18:36

you be any more specific? Pointing

18:39

fingers from the upper basin. At

18:41

the lower basin. Doesn't build

18:43

trust. Are you talking about Colorado? Yeah. Yes.

18:48

If the lower basin and the upper basin are

18:50

rival high school cliques, then California

18:52

and Colorado are their respective leaders.

18:57

For decades, while California has been taking more

18:59

than it has rights to on paper, Colorado

19:02

has been pointing this out, demanding

19:04

again and again that California follow

19:07

the rules. This

19:09

rivalry becomes obvious the next day during

19:12

the most important panel of the entire

19:14

conference, the principles panel. It's

19:17

the only time in which the lead negotiators

19:19

from all seven states meet publicly together.

19:21

What I would hope that folks in

19:23

this room get is that

19:26

shared pain first and foremost comes from

19:28

acknowledging the pain that others have already

19:30

suffered. That is the

19:32

wrong approach. That's

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21:43

You're listening to Imperfect Paradise, the

21:45

Gen Z water dealmaker. I'm Emily

21:48

Garan. The

21:50

principles panel takes place in the Paris

21:52

Ballroom, which is massive and totally packed.

21:55

I end up sitting in the back with the sound and

21:57

lighting guys. The panel begins with a...

22:00

I'm occasion by Jordan Joaquin,

22:02

president of the quits on

22:04

Indian tribe heavily Father, we

22:06

ask for your guidance and

22:09

presence that. Hear

22:11

to days have a We

22:14

mentality, not and I've mentality

22:16

And Jesus' name we say

22:18

Amen! And. That he sits down.

22:20

And the crowd and lessons along with the rest of

22:22

us. There are thirty

22:25

tribal nations that use Colorado River water,

22:27

but tribes do not have a form

22:29

of voice and these negotiations and neither

22:31

does Mexico. As. The

22:33

panel gets. Going. There are a few things

22:35

that everyone seems to agree on. We.

22:37

Take more water out of the Colorado River.

22:40

That flows into at. Climate. Change

22:42

is causing. The river to shrink even more. And

22:44

to avoid deadpool, painful cuts will have to

22:47

be made. But to

22:49

negotiators in. Particular are really agree with

22:51

each other. Jb Hamby from

22:53

California and his counterpart from Arizona.

22:56

At one point the moderator asks everyone.

22:58

With their big take home message is. Tom.

23:01

The Southgate the lead negotiator

23:03

from Arizona says give license

23:06

to the people sitting appear

23:08

that you support to compromise.

23:11

And. Other words: Trust us. After

23:15

a pause, the moderator turns to J B.

23:18

Ditto. Ditto.

23:21

Last, but this is a huge. Deal. Despite

23:24

both being in the lower base in

23:26

California and Arizona. Used to hate. Each

23:28

other's guts, The. Even ended up in the.

23:31

Supreme Court over the river. Now.

23:33

They're practically finishing each other's sentences.

23:37

I've. Been hearing rumors that Tom and say be

23:39

we're going to announce something big on this panel.

23:42

And. Here it is. although it so wonky, it's

23:44

kind of hard to tell. We're

23:46

stepping up in discuss. Isabel posts

23:48

twenty twenty six in the lower

23:50

base to own the social deficit,

23:53

the own to supply and demand

23:55

imbalance. J. B Layer

23:57

uses the exact same phrases. Oh,

24:00

agreement with Tom The structural deficit has

24:02

been a long time coming. There is

24:04

a supply demand imbalance in the lower

24:07

base, and it's not a new issue.

24:10

There's a lot of jargon flying around here, so

24:12

let me explain. There.

24:15

Are two big problems on the Colorado

24:17

River, a supply problem and a demand

24:19

problem. The demand problem is a California

24:21

and Arizona need a lot of water.

24:24

Supply. Problem has to do with climate

24:26

chance there is less water and the reverend

24:28

than there used to be and that means

24:30

the lower base and is draining the reservoirs.

24:33

So most of the. Water and the

24:35

river starts snow and the Colorado

24:38

Rockies but rise in temperature is

24:40

means less precipitation and more evaporation.

24:42

It's essentially a hot drought. Snow

24:45

that does fall as getting sucked into the

24:47

dry air and set of melting and flowing

24:49

down stream into the river. This

24:51

gap. Between supply and demand is why

24:54

the water level and like need is

24:56

dropping. It's why people are worried about

24:58

deadpool. So.

25:01

Would say be and tom. Are doing here. Is

25:03

acknowledging publicly that the Gap. Is

25:05

a problem. They. Use too much water

25:08

and they're going to cut back. That's

25:10

our responsibility. This is a historic

25:12

thing coming and it's on our

25:15

shoulders to be able resolve it.

25:17

It's going to be challenging, but

25:19

it's absolutely necessary. This. Moment

25:21

is what everyone is going to talk

25:23

about afterwards. It's Huge. Esteban

25:25

Lopez, the negotiator from New Mexico, an

25:28

upper base and state. Makes the point

25:30

as thanking them. Feel my

25:32

am incredibly hardened by the lower

25:34

basins commitment to they're gonna take

25:37

on and deal with for the

25:39

first time the structural deficit that

25:42

gets us very far this whole

25:44

thing. But. These cuts

25:46

by California and Arizona are not going

25:48

to be enough to balance the river

25:51

and the future. Scientists predict the Colorado

25:53

River will shrink nearly a third of

25:55

by midcentury. And

25:57

this is where the panel turns and be something.

26:00

Conversation about pain. Who.

26:02

Else besides California and Arizona is going

26:05

to cut back. Here say be.

26:07

There is no user know state,

26:10

no country know basin that can

26:12

stand up and say we're out.

26:14

This is a base my problem

26:16

for were not part of it.

26:18

It's going to require every single

26:20

user to be able to participate

26:22

in resolving this problem in the

26:24

future. Said he says he's talking

26:26

about everyone, but really he's talking

26:29

about Colorado. The

26:31

negotiator from Colorado takes to make. And

26:35

want to be real clear right now. For.

26:39

Name is Becky Mitchell. She's. Wearing a

26:41

tweed blazer. And glasses like is forty

26:43

nine which means scenes a be at

26:45

the two youngest people on the panel.

26:47

What I would hope that soaps

26:50

and sram guess is that shared.

26:52

Came first and foremost comes from acknowledging

26:54

the pain that others have already suffered.

26:57

We. Can't see asked to share. Pain

26:59

if you don't even know

27:01

what we are experiencing. And

27:04

this moment, I don't. Totally get that pain

27:06

but he is referring to. But.

27:08

It seems important because he starts to

27:10

talk really loudly, almost yelling for voice

27:12

echoes out of the speakers and around

27:15

the ballroom. The one

27:17

person that you cannot negotiate

27:19

with his mother nature. She

27:21

will win every time. She.

27:25

Has been telling us what to

27:27

do. We. Have

27:30

cell service. For.

27:32

A hundred years. I

27:34

want an agreement that lessons of

27:37

the pain for all of us.

27:40

Not just some of us, Later.

27:44

Somebody will tell me that Becky seems like she

27:46

was back on her heels like the lower base

27:48

and had just. Made this magnanimous offer to

27:50

cut it's use and she hadn't quite

27:52

figured out how to respond except to

27:54

keep hammering on the same point about

27:56

feelings, her pain, From.

27:59

Betty brings up. The nuclear option. Yeah.

28:03

I don't wanna be and sixteen. Court.

28:05

With. My friends on the plan.

28:08

Sometimes friends, sometimes not. A.

28:11

Murmur goes through the brown. I see

28:13

people whispering to each other and negotiators

28:15

like blank. Liberties saying

28:17

I don't. Wanna go to the supreme court

28:19

but she seems to be implying is I will

28:21

if you make me. Then.

28:25

And negotiators. Some the other states

28:27

jump in and say what a terrible

28:29

idea that would be Here's done and

28:31

slinger from Nevada. Litigation is

28:33

so appealing. Robe version of

28:36

difference guys are going to

28:38

win or physicians clear with

28:40

a what it says on

28:42

the piece of paper. But.

28:45

John goes on what you're actually doing

28:47

when you go to the Supreme Court.

28:50

This change in our water professionals who

28:52

know and have worked on M Love

28:54

this river. Four guys and gals and

28:56

black robes with no very very little

28:59

about our rivers. Some things that if

29:01

the. Supreme. Court gets involved. They could

29:03

screw over everybody and ways no one

29:06

can anticipate. And

29:08

then John does the same where he tells everyone.

29:10

To lower their expectations for what

29:13

the current negotiations can accomplice. They

29:16

will largely focus on plumbing.

29:18

They will focus on how

29:20

we operate. But the one

29:22

thing I can tell you

29:25

with absolute certainty, the guidelines

29:27

will deliver a messy compromise.

29:29

The will be judged harshly

29:31

by history. As

29:35

the cold reality, the only system

29:37

for the people in this room

29:40

is whether we will deliver that

29:42

messy compromise or whether or not

29:44

people outside of this rumor. This.

29:47

Still strategic to me, like he's

29:50

speaking indirectly to Becky. Who. Seems

29:52

to have much higher expectations for what's

29:54

she's trying to accomplish. and it's negotiations.

29:57

I've heard a lot about we can't get

29:59

a perfect. And I agree

30:01

with that. We probably. Can't get perfect,

30:03

but we sure as heck can do better

30:05

than what we're doing now. It.

30:08

Seems like Becky. Want something revolutionary, not

30:10

something incremental, And she's not willing

30:12

to compromise until she gets it.

30:16

The panel never breaks out at to

30:18

outright hostility but something in the room.

30:20

Has shifted. Jv makes a comment that's

30:22

pretty clearly directed at Colorado, but all

30:24

he says is it's about someone who's

30:27

not and my respect his base. And

30:29

I've heard of course, some Radical

30:31

some months ago. And

30:34

it will say is not in my respect

30:36

have a son and a quote went along

30:38

the lines of the only time you should

30:40

compromise is when you can't advance your position

30:43

any further. That

30:45

is the wrong approach. I

30:48

see Tom from Arizona not and along.

30:51

But. I don't know I can.

30:53

I get it. I mean, California gotten

30:55

all the water it's wanted for generations

30:57

and Colorado can't let it go. Since

31:01

everybody. The.

31:06

Panel ends and I start looking for Becky.

31:09

That's coming up after break. He

31:14

ll principle is hop it you

31:16

can win amazing hard as well.

31:18

Supported your source for local is

31:20

still missing. Lucky brand new the

31:22

city's again existence is twenty five

31:24

thousand dollars into other prizes in

31:27

pay any lucky for hims you

31:29

are in one thousand dollar Does

31:31

your donation of sixty Gabi is

31:33

he wanted me to hold and

31:35

the more you get the more

31:37

interesting kids don't. Know if. You're.

31:46

Listening to Imperfect Paradise to Jenn

31:48

Sea Water deal maker. I'm Emily

31:50

Guerin. I.

31:52

Find Colorado's lead negotiator Becky

31:55

Metrodome. At the end of a hallway. She.

31:57

talking animatedly with a reporter from

31:59

politico She's changed out of her

32:01

black heels and into flip-flops. She doesn't

32:03

have time to talk to me, but I overhear

32:05

her chatting with a guy sitting next to me. They're

32:08

talking about Tom Buszatsky, the negotiator

32:10

from Arizona. The guy says

32:12

he saw Tom rolling his eyes while Becky

32:14

talked. My name is

32:16

Chuck Cullum. I'm the executive director of

32:19

the Upper Colorado River Commission. I

32:21

ask him, what does Becky mean when

32:24

she says, acknowledge our pain? What

32:26

is she talking about? So just

32:29

a couple of very concrete examples.

32:33

TV teams have people in the Upper Basin

32:35

use Colorado River water in a fundamentally different

32:37

way than people in the Lower Basin. In

32:40

the Lower Basin, all the water comes out

32:43

of Lake Mead, the reservoir behind Hoover Dam.

32:45

It's like a faucet. Arizona, Nevada,

32:48

and California simply call up the federal government

32:50

and ask them to open the tap. That

32:53

is a totally different river

32:55

experience than in the Upper

32:57

Basin. In the Upper Basin,

33:00

a lot of people literally pull water out

33:02

of these little streams that feed into the

33:04

Colorado. If the streams are running

33:06

low, their water supply can get cut off. That's

33:09

real hardship, real risk. In

33:12

the Lower Basin, they are just

33:14

now experiencing

33:17

a river of uncertainty.

33:20

And we see eye rolling from people

33:23

on the panel today. You

33:25

saw eye rolls? Yeah.

33:28

And it's not appropriate. It's like, come

33:30

up and experience it. Live next to

33:32

that river. You try and grow hay

33:34

at 8,000 feet. And

33:38

in August, that creek is dry. You

33:41

try that. Later, I

33:43

will Google Chuck Callum and learn that

33:45

he once compared Lower Basin water users

33:47

to ski town trustafarians who

33:50

drive Range Rovers, ski all day, and never

33:52

get a job, entitled assuming

33:54

the water will always be there, sitting

33:56

in that big bathtub of Lake Mead.

34:03

He. Went back is talking about acknowledging

34:06

pain. She's talking about past what

34:08

it's and for. Farmers and ranchers and

34:10

the upper base. And to survive without any

34:12

guarantee they'll have water that year. It's.

34:16

Not like the situation is. Unique to Colorado,

34:18

this precarious this exists across the

34:20

last, including parts of California that

34:23

rely on melted snow from the

34:25

Sierra Nevada. And

34:27

also it's not quite as simple. As

34:29

back is making it out to me, there's

34:31

certainly areas where water users get cut off.

34:34

But. A recent report based on federal

34:36

data fun at the upper basin actually

34:38

uses slightly. More Colorado river water and

34:40

dry years. The reports coauthors wrote that

34:42

the idea that the upper base and

34:45

is already feeling pain is a dangerous

34:47

argument to make primarily because the lower

34:49

base and can see through it. That

34:52

it's a great argument, as one of them told

34:54

me. If you're trying to make the case to

34:56

the public that it's. Someone else has turned to

34:59

make a sacrifice. I

35:03

asked her to how he described

35:05

the relationship right now between the

35:08

upper and lower basins. The principles

35:10

me regularly to have real unvarnished

35:12

conversations are was so quip from

35:15

the Princess Bride or the Future

35:17

as pain and anyone who tells

35:19

you differently is trying to sell

35:22

you something. It's painful to live

35:24

within the means of the river

35:26

as the future. But.

35:29

I mean I guess people have told me it

35:31

seems just. worse frankly send a

35:33

spin and the past worse

35:35

how like more suspicious more

35:37

distrustful well have been working

35:40

on the river for a

35:42

long time we are doing

35:44

something new and difficult i

35:46

don't believe that the conversations

35:48

are easier or harder than

35:50

they've been in the past

35:53

their different the stakes are

35:55

higher we burned through all

35:57

of the resiliency in the

35:59

system and drew the reservoirs down to

36:01

25 or 30% of capacity. So

36:05

yeah, there's tension, but

36:07

that's to be expected. The

36:10

negotiations underway right now are

36:12

all about shared future pain. And

36:15

what Becky's saying is, we're not willing to

36:17

take on any more pain because we've been

36:20

feeling it our entire lives. J.B.

36:23

Hamby says he gets where Becky's coming from.

36:25

He just doesn't think it's that helpful. Certainly

36:28

what is perhaps

36:30

not a constructive approach is having to

36:33

start out every discussion and gathering and

36:35

meeting with acknowledging one particular set of

36:37

users need to be perceived

36:39

as having pain. It's

36:43

after lunch on the same day as the principal's panel.

36:45

I'm loitering in the main hallway, eyeing

36:48

the other lead negotiators. J.B.

36:50

is in high demand. His two cell phones

36:52

keep buzzing, so we only have a couple minutes.

36:55

There's statements made occasionally that no set

36:57

of users is more important than another.

37:00

And that's true, I agree with that. But

37:02

that also doesn't mean that some users who are

37:04

perceived as having needs are

37:06

more important or absolved from being a

37:08

part of the solution and addressing these

37:10

climate change impacts. In

37:13

other words, climate change has so fundamentally

37:15

changed the river that whatever they were

37:17

doing before is irrelevant. Saab's

37:19

stories about past pain have no place

37:21

here. And neither do historical

37:24

grudges against California and Arizona

37:26

for overusing. Well,

37:29

thank you. Where are you off to right now? Um,

37:31

Politico. Trying to, Cool. somewhere.

37:35

All right. Well, go do

37:37

it. Thanks. I'll see you around. I

37:45

am tired. I need caffeine if I'm

37:47

going to make it to the evaporation and runoff

37:49

reception. Where drinks mixed with

37:51

Colorado river water flow freely and

37:53

platters of vegetables, also grown with

37:55

Colorado river water are piled high.

37:58

As I Walked toward the cookie and coffee. The station I

38:00

passed hum the shot ski. the lead

38:02

negotiator from Arizona slumped on a bench.

38:04

He's wearing a dark suit, a little

38:07

lapel pin with the star from the

38:09

Arizona. State flag lapel pins are big.

38:11

Crew apparently. I

38:13

asked him how the negotiations. Are going well

38:15

as you described as such as as

38:17

a little bit of a yoyo the

38:20

yoyo those are the top of the

38:22

ours is sometimes those pat downs of

38:24

the bottom of the are shrouded, minimize

38:26

the bottom and accentuate the thought. Of

38:30

frustration. Issue and have

38:32

taken a step or two. Vassals Things

38:34

could actually be worse. It snowed a

38:36

ton last winter. Boost in the level

38:38

of Lake Mead by twenty feet. That

38:41

took some of the pressure off the

38:44

negotiators, which is helpful, especially because the

38:46

pandemic kind of set the math is

38:48

it significantly. Better in person. And on

38:50

June fifth he says i can go

38:53

to that guy in the hallway and

38:55

talk to him. And

38:57

he'll try to worth something else and son

39:00

of a safer ways and doing in front

39:02

of twenty people. If

39:04

you throw something else. Five

39:07

people say oh hell no in

39:10

his eyes. For

39:12

you ever have a sense. I

39:16

get it is hard to have a saddle conference

39:18

on zoom. Legally.

39:21

Arizona isn't a bad place on the

39:24

river and lake need got to low

39:26

Phoenix in Tucson would lose access to

39:28

one. Hundred percent of their Colorado

39:30

River water before California. with booze

39:32

a drop. It's kind of wilde,

39:34

but that's how the laws interpret it. This

39:37

is why it's. Such a big deal that

39:39

time in Jp are getting along so

39:41

well. Jvc of. I

39:44

think that's unusual says mostly A

39:46

says old guys and women who

39:49

been doing this for long. Overdue

39:52

the forty two years,

39:54

so he has a

39:56

very progressive attitude. They

40:00

always. Say.

40:03

These willing to work with to share.

40:05

Pain and spare Arizona cities.

40:07

That's what I'm talking as

40:10

an example of his willingness

40:12

to think progress. To

40:17

be later told me that someone one complimented

40:19

him on holding together the boots in the

40:21

suits in California, the farmers in the city

40:23

people. He told them. Can

40:26

be said on had com be shot his job. The

40:33

crisis on the Colorado River impact so

40:35

many people so differently. It's the creek

40:38

flying dry and the Wyoming cow pasture

40:40

in the summer. It's the dirt and

40:42

the Arizona sealed that used to grow

40:44

madness, blowing dust into the desert air.

40:47

It's people in San Diego pain to

40:49

turn ocean water and drinking water. It's

40:51

the once mighty river that no longer

40:54

reaches to see. The

40:57

climate change doesn't. Only inflicts pain.

41:00

Tom. Says a kind of clarifies. Things

41:02

They were dead from the project since,

41:04

right authors deadpool. They're so water doesn't

41:07

matter with you. A piece of paper

41:09

that says yo better access to the

41:11

waters someone else if there's no word

41:13

is nowhere for everybody. So I think

41:15

that's changed. In

41:18

other words, it doesn't matter how much water you

41:20

have rights too on paper, as Lake Mead dropped

41:22

so low that no water can get to you.

41:26

The. Seven negotiators, Now has three months

41:28

to come up with a deal to keep this from

41:30

happening. And by the end of the

41:32

conference it feels to me like some of the people.

41:35

Who need to make that deal are very far

41:37

apart. To be nice

41:39

to do more than hold the boots and

41:41

suits together. And California. He needs

41:43

to find a way to reach a compromise to

41:45

both the lower and upper basins can live with.

41:53

That was correspondent Emily Guerin

41:55

coming up on Imperfect Paradise

41:57

Pigeon, the water dealmaker and.

42:00

The path to becoming the

42:02

youngest lead negotiator ever. On

42:04

the Colorado River. By

42:06

a pleasant feel like I

42:08

saw. Surface

42:10

whole and a box. And

42:15

how can descend? On the river

42:17

got so dire in the

42:20

first place, everyone acknowledged that

42:22

what we negotiated likely was

42:24

not going to be enough

42:27

to handle the worst case

42:29

scenario. It was

42:31

as far as we could

42:33

would go. That

42:35

was very unpleasant and so I result

42:37

myself and stuff will never again will

42:39

I allow us to happen. This is

42:42

bad. Literally. Just for five

42:44

years later we realized there was.

42:48

That on the next episode And Imperfect

42:50

Paradise The Gente Water. Deal maker. Listen

42:54

to new episodes of the podcast every

42:56

Wednesday or tune in on Sunday nights

42:58

at seven Pm on away as Eighty

43:00

Nine, Point Three earliest on. This

43:08

episode of Imperfect Paradise was written

43:10

and reported by Emily Guerin. I'm

43:12

the Says House and the new

43:14

City Tatar Now House is the

43:16

executive. Producer of the show and our director and

43:19

front. End development seen any only com

43:21

or Vice President of. Me

43:24

creamer is an editor mean super is are

43:26

pretty. Tense Campbell is or

43:28

production coordinator. Group or onion is an

43:30

editorial and. Zebra

43:33

done as. Mixing and

43:35

theme music: The East Kelly with

43:37

additional music by Andrew. Even. Imperfect

43:40

Paradise is a production as l A

43:42

A Studious. Is

43:44

hardly listeners like you. Support the

43:47

show by donating now at allianz.com/join

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His podcast is supported by Gordon

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and On and Crawford to Billie

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Quality journalism meant Los. Angeles a

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better place to. Live Additional support from

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the water does. of the Center

44:01

for Environmental Journalism at the University

44:03

of Colorado Boulder. This

44:16

program is made possible in part by

44:18

the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, a private

44:20

corporation funded by the American people. The

44:29

Colorado River is running dry. Water

44:32

may not reach millions of people.

44:34

There's no water for everybody. It's

44:36

up to California's lead negotiator, a

44:38

28-year-old. This

44:41

is a historic thing, Timing. And

44:43

six other negotiators to find a solution. I

44:46

want an agreement that lessens the pain

44:49

for all of us, not

44:51

just some of us. Listen to Imperfect

44:53

Paradise, the Gen Z water deal maker,

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wherever you get podcasts.