0:15

he added energy on hold if you're working with her to

0:17

with the first esl to full episode upon our

0:19

water for democratic strategist

0:22

kitchen , savant

0:25

author of the new book any given tuesday

0:27

or political love story part one of the

0:29

podcast with broke down the latest in the one six

0:31

committee hearings and clinton was clinton to

0:34

miss so far what series of accomplished

0:36

what they still have to accomplish it

0:38

or expectations for thursday nights

0:41

big time hearing take

0:44

place in prime time the last

0:46

schedule hearing at one six committee although there

0:48

are those who they're still more com

0:51

os we also heard what it was like for lives to become

0:53

a tabloid fodder when

0:55

the new york post discover that she was romantically involved

0:57

with former new york gov eliot

0:59

spitzer and for her to be fired

1:01

soon to be new york city mayor

1:03

bill de blasio press secretary

1:06

communications chief because of

1:08

that relationship

1:09

and appalling

1:11

he was outcome

1:13

i may say so myself the

1:15

album wasn't a part one of the podcast yet he got

1:17

hit pause right now this thing you're listening

1:19

to and go back and check out part one

1:21

then combat your part to see which

1:23

will smith and i discussed among topics

1:26

her critical and people to judges upstart

1:28

twenty twenty presidential campaigns and her gut

1:30

wrenching experience advising another

1:33

former governor of new york andrew

1:35

cuomo as he says sexual

1:37

harassment allegations that eventually forced to resign

1:40

flashed and without further ado

1:42

let's get into the second part of our talk with listener

1:54

so is we come out real

1:56

turning point in the book

1:59

now and

1:59

tuesday he had really your career

2:02

on the heels of donald trump's election and twenty sixteen

2:05

democrats are shell shocked trying to figure

2:07

out what to do next how to combat

2:09

trump and trump is i'm how to

2:12

think about for the twenty

2:14

twenty presidential race and try to get

2:16

from of office and you

2:18

are at this place where you have built up a formidable

2:21

resume you've worked for lot of big name democrats

2:24

you been involved in some winning races you've also

2:26

been involved in some losing races the twenty six

2:28

team thing had you know whatever we want to say about

2:30

more know mallet had not as planned

2:32

and knock on as you would have hoped and if

2:34

you look at all those cans you work for

2:37

many of whom you really respected but hadn't

2:39

really fall in love with the candidates really

2:41

to go back to your subtitle you know political upstart

2:43

you hadn't really found the candid of

2:46

your dreams yet the right candidate the who

2:48

would be someone who you respect it's some

2:50

you liked and also someone who really had a chance

2:53

winning and then

2:55

you mean

2:56

the guy who did we had all that in

2:58

one package is pete buttigieg the person

3:00

i'm about here kind the candidate of your

3:02

dreams? and i want to to

3:04

start this conversation i want to play a piece of this

3:06

documentary that came out last year

3:08

on amazon prime, the movie is called repeat

3:11

it sort of the buttigieg campaign version

3:14

of the war room, which said before that, i

3:16

know you really loved and was really inspirational to

3:19

you if you to play this little clip here, i

3:21

think it is from the preparation for

3:23

the first democratic debate and

3:26

you get to hear people just talking about

3:28

the nature of debates in a way

3:31

that would appeal to any meteor communications

3:33

consultant there's out a moment here we're kind

3:35

of like oh

3:36

you liked this is a get i could

3:38

work with was awesome

3:40

the ago communist or debate

3:43

this will be but as far but far large

3:46

audience that you've had during

3:48

this campaign visit were times that

3:50

across with the same sentences that i'll be

3:52

reading habits and crap like that the matter

3:54

is the audio device to me up

3:57

right and then i know

3:59

they pay

4:01

there you are you found a carries on your page is

4:03

a killer understands like hey yo it's not

4:05

a debate hate great that's fantastic value of to

4:07

teach you part that this isn't i

4:09

mean talk about you or smith the rotors

4:11

medium post about what or five or country it's

4:14

you met him the context of when he was think about running for dnc

4:16

chair but eventually but they see from the start

4:18

you were like this guy something special what was

4:20

that about

4:21

it was you

4:23

know you are sort of

4:25

sheer it as fran political

4:28

consultants or gurus that

4:30

there's that moment when you meet the wind

4:33

and i just i remember it with

4:35

him when him i taught him on the phone

4:37

as i that is impressive like

4:39

really smart really thoughtful what's really

4:42

much church is a guy a less than

4:44

a year older than me which is really side

4:48

when i sat down with hand

4:50

it was the first dnc chair like for

4:52

i'm to do media prep with

4:54

him and next sam sam down

4:57

last five seed last gen

4:59

new york times politico wash

5:01

imposed he's , mayor south

5:03

band yo he should

5:05

have been very nervous right but we

5:08

go through question after question after question

5:10

and i realize that this

5:13

guy is really really special

5:16

because he's poised

5:19

she's confident he knows who he is she

5:21

knows who is values are but

5:23

it's not like a robot right

5:25

she's saying things in

5:27

a way that i just hadn't heard

5:30

candidates articulate them before

5:33

like a really fresh way

5:35

of talking about things and

5:38

it was at the time

5:42

i've talked about this a for like stephen my

5:44

missus ember

5:47

twenty seen january twenty

5:49

seven she's right before trump is sworn

5:51

an and the

5:54

whole game and

5:56

the democratic party was well

5:58

oh my god we lost the michelle

6:00

obama was wrong when she said

6:03

when they go lot we go high

6:05

and you have people out there like eric holder saying

6:08

when they go low we keep them in the cheese

6:11

and every one is just yelling

6:13

and screaming and a heron on fire

6:15

on cable news and

6:19

the one of the people who who thinks

6:21

that democrats to win need to emulate

6:23

republicans and especially

6:26

if we find hunt show

6:28

morally repugnant why

6:31

don't we try to emulate him and

6:35

he would like complete

6:37

town , programming to i you

6:40

know ill be like going from like

6:42

a death metal c santa npr

6:44

you know know was so refreshing

6:47

and that's missing

6:50

term i just had a say crazy idea

6:53

that went contrary to

6:55

the conventional wisdom that we

6:57

need to be like trump we needed to

6:59

offer the opposite of trump we need to

7:01

offer that antidote to trump rights

7:03

we need to compete and the volume

7:05

of our voices in the vulgarity

7:08

of the language we use maybe

7:10

what we needed was

7:13

someone who was like completely said

7:15

and really was completely completely

7:18

ups and every way and

7:20

like the way he spoke was no

7:23

source hit not actually be

7:25

boys hampered

7:27

angus did not demonize

7:29

republicans and

7:32

you know what other democrats are putting

7:34

all republicans voted for trump simon

7:36

republicans anyone who vote for trump in

7:39

this basket of deplorable he

7:42

would very much like your

7:44

vote in that

7:46

twenty sixteen election

7:48

doesn't define yeah and

7:51

if you did that if you voted for trump i

7:54

don't care i want you on my side

7:57

and was very much about not talking

7:59

down to people and not

8:01

sort of engaging in

8:03

this escalating partisan warfare

8:05

with donald trump's which i

8:08

only say turns people off more

8:11

everybody wrote a million stories about this

8:13

mess into a twenty about

8:15

your the brilliance

8:17

for a least the sagacity of your

8:19

savvy of your time being like

8:21

the guys the mayor of south bend he's special he's

8:23

interesting he's unique keep you know he's openly

8:26

i'm going to put them in find anybody ubiquity is

8:29

going to be the thing we're not gonna say no anybody war

8:31

no opportunity to small know station

8:33

to tiny know rating market

8:35

share to minimal i'm just like if somebody

8:37

wants to talk to mayor pete i'm going to put [unk] private

8:40

can't win out over the country on the first of the the time but he can went

8:42

over the media one one at time john mccain

8:44

try that for awhile with the straight talk express

8:46

but trump is the ultimate example of that rak

8:49

and twenty in february fifteen he would be like

8:51

you know all go anywhere talked to anybody all

8:53

phone and like you know whatever trump was

8:55

always the ubiquity understood this

8:58

media environment that ubiquity

9:00

is powerful if you're not embrace ubiquity

9:03

seriously get lost in all the in all the

9:05

noise and all the fragmentation the media

9:07

so i wonder whether how were were doing this repeat

9:09

when you were thinking he's really different

9:11

donald trump but like that lesson supplies

9:14

to everybody you dot be out there and you

9:16

gotta be available you can't be

9:18

hillary clinton refusing clinton talk to howard stern because

9:20

that sounded abuses i do you know is

9:22

burst of industry sixty stories like wow he really

9:24

felt like hours start of the other the give asia

9:27

the howitzer know how

9:29

jerry that's where my wife wales i

9:31

tried so there are there on that

9:33

show

9:34

so be the trump lesson time

9:36

in forum

9:37

you're thinking about

9:39

in at it absolutely dad and

9:42

i talk about that in my book physicists

9:45

i they refused saying is which is

9:47

that we all know that media so

9:49

silent now and that people

9:51

sort of just seek out media

9:54

outlets sat reinforce our own

9:56

opinions reinforce their

9:58

the own views

9:59

and for you really gotta go everywhere

10:02

if you wanna the reach people

10:05

right most msnbc viewers

10:07

don't watch fox news most fox news

10:09

viewers don't watch msnbc most

10:12

, in america don't watch cable news at

10:14

all so you've

10:17

gotta figure out figure called

10:19

to serve like a nice like tapestry

10:21

of media to do and

10:23

another thing i would say about trump is

10:25

that the more media

10:28

used to the last that

10:30

gaps their matters right

10:33

because if you're always feeding the beast

10:35

it's always turning there's always something

10:37

new coming something the news cycle

10:39

so you know one

10:42

gal for years doesn't have account of time

10:44

to marriage surnames because

10:47

he could say something horrific one day

10:49

something even more horrific the next day

10:52

and then even more horrific the third day

10:54

and by the time all

10:57

this mesh together and don't even remember

10:59

any of it's and i'm not saying this

11:01

is a great thanks it's just the reality

11:04

of how people consume news and

11:06

the nature i think of the media

11:08

that's you're you're always looking for the news

11:11

story and so none the negatives

11:13

to release debt it was the

11:15

opposite though with

11:17

p whereas trump's you

11:20

know trump had a basically

11:22

a hundred percent name idea going into their service

11:26

he would someone who had it his own apparel

11:28

brilliancy be strategy whatever it was that

11:31

was he we had no money we

11:35

no name id we didn't have some like

11:37

two million part of an email have

11:40

have , com lie harris

11:42

right when she announced she had twenty

11:44

thousand people shop in oakland

11:47

california oakland when p

11:49

announce his presidential

11:52

exploratory committee announce his

11:54

like pete chasse in

11:56

my small who is the campaign manager

11:58

who have me and a monkey

12:00

with assemble cel spanish

12:03

that was basically the announcements

12:05

and at the same god we got press to show up

12:07

for it

12:08

while the press always your promote you with a symbol

12:10

and a six years ,

12:12

his gimme most yeah i'm like i wish i would

12:15

miss that randomness never million dollars

12:17

but we're not as a traditional things

12:20

that you had we're supposed to have

12:22

and more in a twenty sensing

12:25

person feels person how do you break

12:27

through and through and person field

12:30

with no money no name id know

12:32

mls anything like that and we i

12:34

think this email less was like

12:37

twenty

12:38

the ball precise of smoke south any

12:40

the as breeze how place and yucky bread you broke

12:42

through again he has certain qualities that were very

12:44

compelling and and you put him everywhere in that

12:46

he has the a couple big moments in in

12:49

town halls and right but soon

12:51

you damage what we did go away sir

12:53

i just started you're

12:55

saying yes to everything else

12:57

because i again like i've

12:59

watched him and i had seen him for a long

13:02

time and i remember i think

13:04

i introduce you to him at some point and

13:06

austin texas

13:07

here in austin in lobby of that like

13:09

his store

13:09

i did you school hotel

13:11

yeah exactly it's an he's

13:13

someone were hi

13:15

see if you just met him off have you

13:17

be like the idea for me

13:20

not that impressive like whatever

13:22

by it i knew that there was a

13:25

hypnotizing quality

13:27

to him that would touch on the people

13:29

and yet we just started doing this and it just started

13:31

to snowball right as we would start

13:33

doing podcasts i grew up with and

13:35

will and we would start filling up tv

13:38

had see a were knocking the marquis heads

13:40

early on but we have built

13:42

up a not survive sort

13:44

of interesting like the

13:47

chatter that by the time he got

13:49

to the scene and town hall isaac

13:51

on march twenty twenty

13:53

nineteen and he just rushed

13:55

stats he he i

13:58

skipped a step

14:00

that you traditionally have to take as

14:03

yeah running for president and like

14:05

within ten days a

14:08

pull him out showing and polling third polling

14:10

iowa which iowa have never

14:12

seen before my life and life probably will never see

14:14

again and my life

14:15

well i would say look i mean again this is

14:17

what he thinks where you and i have like different

14:20

ways with this hours i met him i

14:22

we met

14:23

it was the fall twenty eighteen were

14:25

down there for the tribune festival any weirder would

14:27

that not lobby and i remember thinking that

14:29

he was am depressed guy right i will run as conversation

14:32

and and we all of which i'm in the lobby i time

14:34

probably i remember thinking and i probably saved

14:36

here with some point you know how

14:40

can we gave military veterans who

14:42

is a mare of a red state and city a red

14:44

states that guys go get a moment

14:46

at some we're going to get him on the

14:49

how manic depressed going to be there is kind of come a of

14:51

escaping cycle the press good given what's guy and if

14:53

he if he reads that moment he's you get

14:55

help arrives see how to do that was gonna

14:57

happen right you do that those things that combination

15:00

and we put aside whatever you think him as a performer

15:02

and and it when he was thought his policies whatever

15:04

in the democratic party twenty twenty and

15:06

twenty two a cycle so that combination

15:09

of things a red state mayor

15:12

the small town thing actually kind of help with novelty

15:14

and totally milk military veteran

15:17

openly gay

15:18

the the you're going to at some point i was open

15:20

the door and say are ya it would really like give him

15:22

a stepladder as he got on the pedestal go ahead spirit

15:24

have your time up there right views had a can

15:26

be ready for that it seemed to me like not that does

15:28

a small but threat knowing that

15:30

that's coming

15:32

how do we get ready for it and when we get

15:34

our moment really grab

15:35

right and and one thing i

15:37

will say as a compliment huge on

15:39

as you reach out to have

15:42

em on the circus like weeks

15:44

before the cnn town hall and

15:46

know your one of the people early

15:48

on to sort of see that this guy

15:50

could have it and i can tell ya

15:53

most of the media not that way and

15:55

most of the as the a political

15:57

consultants i've worked read or a new

16:00

that i was crazy they're like it

16:02

when i was gonna work for them they're like to

16:04

you're working for the mayor of indianapolis

16:07

did , a bass like

16:10

are you punching us and it's like no it's

16:12

like am and i can i can see him breaking

16:15

through slides what we began

16:17

to see it with the starting with the scene

16:19

and town hall was that

16:22

, had sort of a command

16:24

of himself and a confidence

16:26

in himself that

16:28

you really need to succeed

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as

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had to say wow people they think of therapy

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as either weird or foreign or have

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self indulgent and i was

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like that for a long time and then

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i found myself actually doing therapy

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as soon as it started i was like i

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why as useful as someone who is

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19:04

looking back to hell or high water what's

19:06

, name of the book again any given tuesday a

19:09

political love story bella smith for anybody

19:11

who either loves or hates people to judge in

19:13

there are some people will hate people to judge a

19:15

you want to hate read it if you want to hate read it there's like

19:17

lots of hate read and hear but if you love you're going to

19:19

get all of the whole pete story i'm

19:21

gonna play one piece of sound that gets

19:23

to chew important

19:26

questions about pets and about that go to

19:28

what happened the campaign and to his future

19:30

okay so this all again from air b i know you

19:33

the saudi pretty before you've seen the movie probably bunch

19:35

times this is i'm a scene of debate

19:37

prep getting ready for the embassy

19:39

news debate in november of twenty nineteen

19:42

ah , you guys are talking about this controversy

19:45

that belt the campaign at one point which was

19:47

there was an officer involved shooting that a racial

19:49

component to it in south bass p was pulled

19:51

up be drawn good deal with it and now the question

19:53

was was gonna come up in debates and

19:55

the question was how you could answer when someone attacked you want

19:58

to some was to attack him on early raise it the

20:00

i thought god beside her harris but it could be

20:02

somebody else and then we'll about the big questions

20:04

that raises i wonder the answer

20:06

the phone call a few days ago that know mayor

20:08

ever wants to get and , as

20:10

the details are investigated we

20:13

already know the part of why this is unleashed

20:15

such anguish is this takes

20:17

place in the shadow a countries worth

20:20

of abuses and systemic racial

20:22

injustice we need to bounce

20:24

why i'm committed to building a

20:26

country in which a white person

20:28

and white person person feel the exact same thing when

20:31

they encounter a police officer

20:35

we haven't done it may be a assuming

20:37

the to although that some red planet and little

20:39

net

20:40

he was young

20:43

then it a bit defensive

20:45

in the eighties and motive

20:47

please i think in that answer

20:49

betty the totally this my very

20:51

clean it

20:52

he needs a show more honestly

20:54

that's a feedback i would give him your is he's

20:56

got a he's running for president and

20:58

when he goes there is gotta show more life or

21:01

conviction is he someone reflect the second

21:03

semana

21:04

the because they're going to quote it's more or less met then

21:06

come across like the fucking to man up there so

21:09

here's my is your slice termites i celebrate

21:11

had to lose those many times i you of course on people's

21:13

as his every knows you want people to say i really

21:16

as if is out of i say

21:18

good good good good okay so

21:20

sure questions that matter

21:22

the first question is this goes this

21:24

thing we talked before about with martin and and about

21:26

and trump and others about authenticity the

21:29

also that like and and connecting

21:31

with people rights you know you had that was in november

21:34

when we get to february it was you're watching the movie

21:37

there's another debate prep scene which he supposed to be answering

21:39

a question of as do with gay rights and again

21:41

you're you're saying to him with your you feel

21:43

this sounds like you're reading a fucking shopping

21:46

west see you're dealing with this this

21:48

issue throughout which is that a

21:50

guy who you think is great you think is the one

21:52

you think it has a c keeps the same

21:54

problem which is like you're seeing

21:56

she's come across like a tin man like is really shopping

21:59

list on issues a profound social

22:01

emotional importance were race shoot

22:04

the crime gay rights are involved

22:06

writes some theories about whether you think

22:08

by the end he learns that like

22:10

how to be the

22:12

do the perform at a party politics you know

22:14

at some point people wanna see you

22:16

a moat you are right you can't see like is

22:18

really shopping list you can't come across like

22:20

the tin man and win the nomination

22:22

than the presidency do think he learns that

22:26

because they to matters of what he's gonna run for president again

22:28

i think we both know yes

22:30

well i don't know if he as

22:32

i suspect he is what's what's what's most

22:34

of america thinks people just my run for right

22:37

that's not recent years

22:38

the in any role

22:40

he wants sir

22:41

then a higher than are

22:43

drained was real imo as imo can was connections

22:45

him

22:46

so there's a thing about p

22:48

were i know he feels

22:50

very strongly about things but

22:53

he did not like to be performer deadly

22:55

and mode as and

22:57

i don't mean to play psychologists

23:00

here

23:02

the

23:04

someone who spends thirty

23:06

plus years of his life in that class at

23:08

including , his in

23:11

the navy navy navy intel

23:13

and under don't ask don't tell

23:15

where you sort of has a high a part

23:17

who you are and a part of yourself

23:21

and didn't

23:23

mean that he didn't feel the things she felt

23:25

it's , sad you could cause he

23:28

compartmentalize thanks and

23:31

we serve had walls up inside him

23:34

in in debates they we

23:38

did come down and and he was one the

23:40

best debaters on the stage

23:43

right here someone who is not sure

23:46

that traffickers skybitz

23:49

you much felt like being to

23:52

a mode as it's almost too powerful

23:54

for him because there's so much emotion

23:56

in him because of

23:58

his life experiences but

24:00

he hates perform it as a

24:03

mossad you know and we all know that

24:05

there are those democrats you go out there and

24:07

republicans and major this performative emotion

24:10

and , never wanted to be that way and

24:14

are dynamics on the campaign is

24:16

obviously very yin yang man

24:20

a lot of candidates probably

24:22

wouldn't have been thrilled ahead if

24:24

have had said thanks to them the way i

24:27

said them to him but

24:30

he had for observe

24:33

maturity the each year the

24:36

smarts to understand

24:38

that i understood him and where and

24:40

where coming from and i understood that there is

24:43

another gear and hand stacks

24:45

had come out and that he

24:47

doesn't you might go a little bit and he did

24:49

like out and he has some great moments

24:51

in these debates and i as i think

24:53

he was a formidable debater

24:55

look i think it's reasonable to assume some as young as him

24:58

who did as as even though he fell short

25:00

today as well as you to admit that was like primary that

25:02

that cabbage bribed political future i mean

25:04

the of the f b wave or surprise if he did run

25:06

for and the the dead and i see what

25:09

he does he'll have as much as corner the

25:11

be given some of thousands of less stature

25:13

of we've stuck with which will your demo it's like

25:16

eyes of wealthy byte about be like our last

25:18

topic of the next but there are there are of people had

25:20

doubt about that have a political people who

25:22

were like he's gonna have a problem connect with

25:25

like voters and nice at all on

25:27

i'm like it's some combination of the how

25:29

he comes across as the fact that

25:31

of historic homophobia in the back me least he's

25:33

got a hard time especially with

25:35

biden having the strength that he has an end to

25:38

african our kids the race you can't whether

25:40

they're right nomination without way by boats you just can't

25:42

is not possible it's like the fundamental the i try

25:44

to get rid every cycle wacko skies

25:46

don't talk that who can't get black

25:49

votes you can't be the democratic nominee without getting

25:51

the majority at least bare majority of

25:53

awkward and people would say out of

25:55

it so it's i'm like nope top stop very

25:58

talented hours that if i thought

26:00

very highly of people i thought i would be a problem see

26:02

me the police you really happened and then you

26:05

another issue so i guess my question you

26:07

as not we

26:09

were able to analyze it it was a problem

26:11

for how did you solve

26:13

that problem going forward if he wants to have a political a

26:15

national political future what it that cracks

26:17

the code for him and i just well

26:20

being around isn't really the answer it's like if

26:22

i had been running bernie sanders after twenty

26:24

sixteen i would have said rid of the three years doing

26:26

stuff to appeal to black voters because you're

26:28

going to meet them and twenty twenty they didn't

26:32

i you know if i had we had fired by supervision

26:34

right now be like a is going on for presence a the fishery

26:36

or solve this problem iotova heavy answer to if

26:38

i'd already working it so if

26:41

i'm sure you know the answer is you know

26:42

oh my issue i'm loath to

26:45

, about peace feature because

26:47

i think people read too much into

26:49

it but let me tell you

26:52

my thoughts on it

26:56

give you like my postmortem and

26:58

you can read so at what you well wondering

27:01

, seen an election after election

27:03

whether it's see see

27:06

election or some of these

27:08

democratic primaries is

27:11

like for a house senate

27:13

etc is a black voters

27:16

are very

27:18

pragmatic voters you

27:20

know they're not gone for the socialists

27:22

they are not going

27:25

for the over the people

27:27

making the biggest promises that

27:29

probably can't be delivered and

27:32

with good reason right the black me as

27:34

if as

27:35

black voters have been sold a bill of goods

27:38

how , times spice like politicians

27:40

saying i'll fit says i'll success

27:43

i will do this i'll do that for you

27:45

and

27:46

biden was a who

27:49

black voters new because she

27:51

was someone who was at barack

27:54

obama side the first black president

27:56

black president eight years had his back

27:58

every step of the way and what it

28:00

really as

28:03

much as a partner with the president as

28:05

you've seen a vice president be in a long

28:07

time i mean i guess either to that would cheney

28:10

and bush fitness and so

28:12

when i look back on twenty what

28:14

we smart as campaign

28:17

was to understand that they had a

28:19

firewall in south carolina and

28:21

our campaign didn't fully understand this

28:23

i would say sanders war

28:26

and klobuchar et cetera didn't understand

28:28

this that biden

28:30

was okay with the oh

28:33

comely and forth in iowa

28:35

or know forth in new hampshire

28:37

i'm i'm i'm you're okay with out there are

28:39

two miles west of i thought they might be able to survive

28:43

aber you know what's crazy is that no

28:46

one made any inroads with black

28:48

there's no

28:50

no read any and and violence they

28:53

were just rock solid there so

28:55

and co think there's a bit of unfair

28:57

narrative around peach

29:00

on that issue because no one

29:02

else really made inroads sarah and

29:04

some of it was perpetuated by

29:06

the facts yeah he's yeah mare and

29:08

yes and deal with deal white police officer

29:11

was shooting and killing

29:14

and block member of his cities but

29:17

the keep using he is someone

29:19

who is really genuine who really

29:21

cares about and

29:23

who really likes to listen to people and

29:26

he has made a really good faith

29:28

efforts on the hell and

29:30

communities across the country to

29:32

make sure she's talking about we're

29:35

talking about in structure right that

29:37

we're doing in a way that ensures the

29:40

an i know that because i

29:42

i've talked with snow or general

29:44

spf who represents upper

29:46

manhattan who had worked for before richie

29:49

torres who represents the bronx and

29:51

how peters working to make

29:53

sure that the infrastructure bell hobbes

29:56

communities are underserved are divided

29:58

because as inequities

30:02

maybe that's not the answer

30:04

you wanted five

30:05

well i think i'd agree with you a thousand

30:07

percent

30:08

there was no one who made inroads have by voters

30:11

they all had various or without

30:13

any and you can say it was awestruck cory booker com what

30:15

has both of whom have to be happy after american south

30:18

american think he agree with me that right that in

30:20

the end

30:21

that if he's going to become the democratic nominee sunday

30:24

and become president states

30:25

the robot you think the peach demonstrate you can already do we

30:28

know he could do that frightful we learned of the campaigns

30:30

piece able to raise money there's a certain set

30:32

of voters were in sweet spot that he can connect with

30:34

an e bay prove that agrees waste this is

30:36

the unproven thing people just

30:38

get lifeboats or not it seems to be that's the most important

30:41

unproven thing we just don't know the as to yeah

30:43

right

30:43

it is and let me just also

30:45

bring us another example that

30:48

i fucked illustrates

30:49

there

30:50

difficulty of a new comer relates

30:53

winning over the black votes

30:55

your memory in two thousand

30:58

eight the obama

31:00

primary now hillary was

31:02

dominating the black hole

31:05

there's such a long time and you think if

31:07

you're saying if you're

31:09

a casual observer you think okay well brock

31:12

obama would be cleaning up with the black

31:14

vote now he had to

31:16

go out and or that

31:19

our ensure that your more than just as

31:21

a politician whose saying the

31:23

same things everyone else does and

31:27

the the black community is very pragmatic they've

31:29

been tried a lot of bullshit over the

31:31

years the right to skeptical and

31:34

even barack obama had to go out and prove that

31:36

and we always knew it be

31:38

a challenge from the get go and

31:41

ah you will see how it goes

31:44

it's a slightly different thing right because

31:46

and obamas case what he was black

31:48

voters as a black candidate was that he could

31:50

win know that that the lot of these

31:52

very pragmatic like voters who are like i don't

31:54

care about inspirations i really care about make sure

31:56

that whoever nominee for president someone who could actually

31:58

win the white house it matters watch was very pragmatic

32:01

but the most pragmatic group of a voters

32:03

and the entire electorate black voters and for

32:05

it's like obama is proving that he can

32:08

appeal to white voters say different

32:10

thing for pete and the kind of challenges he has

32:12

i take your point and we could go on about this all day

32:14

but we as a quick break sauces lakes

32:16

and on other side's move onto a totally

32:18

different conversation we come back after these

32:21

messages with a little more

32:23

of listeners you're on an hour

32:38

welcome back to hell in our water with was smith was

32:40

we're going to move onto the last part

32:43

of this epic to part podcast

32:45

and the final big

32:47

is on addressed topic and

32:50

character in your new book

32:52

will the name again any given tuesday

32:54

a political love story but

32:57

this part of the book is not

32:59

a political love story although it is

33:01

obvious important that you that you wrote about in the prologue

33:03

of the books and then you came back to it and road by

33:05

the in depth later the looking at is andrew

33:08

cuomo the governor of new so i watch you

33:10

play to begin here this is

33:12

andrew cuomo picking on

33:15

the for the first time on camera he to

33:17

address the camera and took questions from reporters march

33:19

third twenty twenty one when he

33:21

first got started getting hit with the sexual harassment allegations

33:24

and i'll say this

33:27

was basically two days after was mess i

33:29

came into the kitchen cabinet for on march first

33:32

one year after repeated dropped out

33:34

of the presidential race here comes was

33:36

meant to add a liberal a ship of cuomo a

33:39

professorship promo going back to the

33:41

twenty team campaign now

33:43

drawn into the middle of the scandal it

33:45

ends up doing the prep for

33:47

this press conference species

33:49

but it gets outta here would have to say here and then what i

33:51

bite or promo about the us

33:53

i want new yorkers

33:56

to hear from me directly

33:59

on this

34:01

first

34:03

i fully support

34:05

a woman's right to come forward

34:08

and i think you should be

34:11

encouraged in every

34:13

way

34:16

i now understand

34:19

i found it in a way

34:22

that made people feel

34:24

uncomfortable

34:26

i never touched any

34:29

would inappropriate i

34:33

never knew at a time

34:35

i was making anyone feel

34:37

uncomfortable and

34:41

certainly never ever

34:43

meant who send

34:45

any morning or hurt anyone

34:49

cause anyone any p

34:52

okay so like the thing about i never touched

34:55

any one inappropriately he would say that throughout

34:57

that that's just like in your judgment as you sit here today

34:59

that is a fucking lie right wy

35:02

to be lied on camera repeatedly lied to

35:04

all you i've if i take the summation of when

35:06

i read the book out the i'm mischaracterizing your sense was

35:08

like he you on the i told you things

35:10

or just false

35:11

so

35:15

i'm i would

35:17

say that

35:18

you are saying that

35:21

he acted inappropriately overtime

35:23

with lemon yes do

35:25

i think that he was not honest with

35:28

the people am yes

35:30

do i think he made women feel

35:33

the safe or uncomfortable

35:37

yeah

35:39

the

35:42

and it it was a tough

35:44

situation to go through because

35:47

he was someone i loved i trusted

35:49

i viewed as viewed as as a father figure

35:52

the on the side stories all this is

35:54

my father's as

35:58

i'm advising i

36:00

gov cuomo and so a

36:02

h just as i'm sort of more import

36:05

for me sad yeah

36:08

he didn't tell the truth here and to amos around us

36:10

and frankly you know what i don't know

36:13

that i will ever know the full truth

36:15

about what happened in these situations

36:18

so it's like if know the says you sent a betrayal

36:21

comes through the book very clearly i'm your

36:23

you know again the i know you're be careful because you know what

36:25

to say that you nobody touch somebody to properly wherever

36:27

by portable comes to very clearly as they seized

36:30

basically saying you over never been there will be no more

36:32

stories and there's no the story like to each yes

36:34

like there's there's that repetitive sense

36:36

of light every province he's making

36:38

to as internally why should we stick with you tells

36:41

you a story that falls apart got

36:43

in your hands practically raised in

36:46

eat you had

36:48

never had any indications there was a problem in

36:50

this area for you say that the book your

36:54

site and i have obsolete i

36:57

just i guess part of my question is about

36:59

that's why you want you to took this assignment

37:01

on but as the months go by

37:04

you said the oh buy bitcoins re heats staying

37:06

things user been proven that be knocked down every promise

37:08

he makes everything he says and yet stick

37:10

with him for months and months and months me

37:13

i really to be and this

37:15

explain that to people like what is if it made you decide

37:17

as the evidence mounted and again

37:20

we may know that rid of the truth but when

37:22

a pattern emerges of this kind and

37:24

there's an attorney general's investigation and there are so

37:27

many women were so many similar stories i'm

37:29

a where there's smoke there's fire always guy but

37:31

i don't ever meet people who looking at that attorney general's

37:34

report that of it's like i've done hearing

37:36

all these accounts of the press who are like ah yes

37:38

ah made that's really work of or

37:40

watches tommy like how they see why you decide

37:43

to stick with that guy now

37:45

popular with lot of women

37:47

that decision to stick with him such spent

37:49

the

37:51

though you

37:54

were some of my life i cared a lot about

37:56

i'd worked from consulted for

37:58

him briefly you know i i didn't have the waters

38:01

face to face him with ham and teams

38:03

but he would call me from time to time during

38:05

the presidential race to cheer me on

38:08

say yeah i'm so proud

38:10

of you and he was the first person to

38:12

person to the idea with me of writing

38:14

a book which is i don't know

38:17

sort of tragic sick twisted

38:19

right now

38:20

iran a couple when i ran a large yeah

38:22

i'm starting our tree yeah

38:24

and or memorize it as

38:26

the thing in the lobby of can manchester hotel

38:29

when he said you

38:31

need to take

38:33

no kids you aren't

38:36

going to write a book

38:40

more seriously that use some

38:42

i met i as

38:44

i said before i love a trusted the

38:46

saw a mentor and when

38:49

first allegation came out he

38:51

vehemently deny that and

38:53

, believe him and

38:57

then

38:59

it's just a tourist

39:01

visa like for the quicksand that can happen

39:03

in these situations and i don't mean to

39:05

like mix metaphors but there's a quick sand

39:07

and i'm anna as a father

39:10

for right present sorely

39:12

after he a week later another allegation

39:14

comes a week later another allegation

39:17

comes out and each

39:20

time he vehemently

39:22

denies stamps and

39:25

you wanna be there for someone who

39:27

you think you love you seek you care for

39:30

think their rights and so

39:34

i was there but a lot of

39:36

why i was there in why

39:39

there in the first place goes

39:41

to what we talked about earlier john

39:44

that's my situation with

39:46

elliot and the tabloids you know it

39:48

was really really difficult for me

39:51

i am good personal friends

39:54

political friends who

39:57

mean i suddenly became

39:59

the

39:59

the on a non grata as as soon as

40:02

on your post story came out and

40:04

it was devastating it was isolating

40:07

if it's you know

40:10

i

40:15

i bear the

40:17

bow scars of it this

40:19

day and

40:25

though i think in my mind sometimes

40:28

there's a thought wow these

40:30

awful things haven't to that were unfair

40:33

and so for anyone who

40:35

is going to a crisis when

40:38

you care about that ,

40:40

should be with them and use

40:43

of believe that they're acting in

40:45

good faith or telling you the truth

40:48

and i am politics

40:51

is full of people who just

40:53

caught enron who are

40:56

there , you don't dare

40:58

for plumber when he is on the

41:00

front page of wash impose new york times

41:03

a global superstar but

41:05

the second there's a with a scandal they're gone

41:08

and you and i know that's about politics

41:11

it says it's a story as

41:13

old as time and

41:15

i never and i to be

41:17

that percent and i've

41:20

it a saying in my life

41:22

whenever i've seen even people i don't know

41:25

i remember when i was in uganda

41:28

seeing a woman i

41:31

had twitter seeing a woman a republican

41:33

woman i didn't know accused

41:35

said he , smeared with

41:38

the some sort of sex scandal thing damning

41:40

her because i just want

41:43

i know how lonely i felt and i never

41:45

won anyone can feel

41:47

as alone as i felt in my moment

41:50

so i'm had

41:53

had of like i don't

41:55

know moral obligation loyalty

41:58

to be there

42:01

oh

42:03

over time yeah

42:05

you you talked about it before

42:07

yeah

42:09

not been told the truth over and over

42:11

again i , that

42:14

there's a difference between that and on

42:17

or and loyalty or blind loyalty

42:19

for and that one should

42:21

not conflate

42:23

loyalty with integrity and

42:26

drink and loyalty as the ultimate

42:28

virtue i actually see that loyalty

42:31

he can blinds you

42:33

and the idea that loyalty over

42:36

everything else and

42:38

, that's why stuck with him i

42:41

wanted to believe in him believe part

42:43

because i needed believe and hand if

42:45

i didn't believe in him then what

42:47

does that mean that everything i've

42:49

been doing for him the

42:52

last couple weeks but other than yours stay

42:55

at all all i am

42:57

and it was a

43:00

real reckoning i

43:02

had to have with myself and

43:06

i could sort of like compartmentalize that

43:09

how the easy report

43:11

came out and he

43:14

had said oh just can we gang this can

43:16

be nothing more and as and allegation

43:18

that he had been with the state true

43:22

as i can then when you see troopers

43:24

tasked with protecting

43:26

you realize you know

43:28

from their body in front of a bullet discount

43:31

exactly and the fact

43:33

that he would even be honest about that beforehand

43:35

and as nose out i was done and

43:38

maybe if you could say that this

43:41

says lot about me about it the

43:43

person that took me

43:45

that long

43:47

i was trying to be good i was trying to

43:49

be loyal and but when

43:51

when that dropped i was done

43:54

and with lot of other people i was done

43:57

and i realize that

44:00

on my loyalty had been taken advantage

44:02

of has no reputation have

44:04

been taken advantage of and it

44:06

was it was personally stay

44:10

you'd have a long as i as we loneliness

44:12

and loyalty or wrapped up in this and i definitely

44:15

i mean listen to talk about it i understand it in

44:17

a way it's like you know

44:19

people go these often whether

44:21

rightly or wrongly

44:23

you know sometimes is right concerts

44:25

i like they should be bandit other people go

44:27

through like in your case with in the alley with

44:29

the only it's can always really a scandal if

44:31

i gotta go shows a sex scandal involved you

44:33

doing the wrong you do a the wrong that single

44:36

thing rights and yet friends over it or

44:38

people been here right as painful i it's

44:40

painful and i can tell i can see it still stings

44:42

i can imagine how it would shape you're

44:44

thinking or this to how you're feeling if you're thinking

44:46

about in a be a situation like this we

44:48

the you start to conflate people

44:51

who have abandoned you wrong

44:53

way with like i don't want to be the one abandoned

44:55

them you know he's look me in the i these

44:57

tommy the summer believe him you know

44:59

another thing you said before my de blasio that ties

45:02

in here that these words you're is that

45:04

writing a book about how the thing that bothered you was that bothered

45:06

nursing home scandalous have other there was

45:08

like some part of your gut was poking

45:10

at you well i'm not gonna turn a blind eye

45:12

or whatever ill hello lot of the be to stuff

45:15

like something else was poking get you there was basically

45:17

like your got was telling you the same we are got told

45:19

you not to go that de blasio it's

45:22

a good guy from your point of view and

45:24

not some a he respected your gut was poking

45:26

at you about com o just it is a different

45:28

way somewhere in your your

45:32

lizard brain yeah you try to tell yourself

45:35

the like listen to yourself you

45:37

know that this was fucked up because people

45:39

who lie about like politicians who are lying

45:42

and covering up and all that shit in one area

45:44

they're usually do is everywhere says knowledge thought

45:47

think it people live like

45:50

to people i so by the way i'm

45:52

like the worst lion hunting i could never

45:54

play poker two that be like i like my face

45:56

be everywhere but yes i

45:58

do agree and that's

46:00

actually very perceptive see you

46:02

to notice sad and probably why

46:05

us his podcast is that i did have

46:07

alarm bells going off in the

46:09

back my head with a de blasio

46:11

an andrew for

46:14

in different ways and you

46:16

i didn't listen to them and

46:20

that sort of

46:21

why i wanted to like put the says

46:23

in this box because you're

46:26

anyone like , be honest

46:29

john when people read these books

46:31

they're always say here all and that route right

46:33

there always a smart person they're always the most virtuous

46:35

person they're always says says

46:37

as successful as have

46:40

been i've made some the

46:42

mistakes i want people

46:44

to now and maybe

46:47

i want myself to know that

46:51

when you hear that alarm

46:53

bells going ossetia probably lessons have an

46:55

and there's a reason why they are

46:58

and my

47:01

gut with pete men

47:03

went with pete with surface is my dot

47:05

on other tanks

47:07

so there's one more aspect of

47:10

this thing this cuomo thing that

47:12

i won't ask you about which kind of actually extends

47:15

out from cuomo and kind of touches

47:17

on a number of the other

47:19

candidates who you have been associate

47:22

with we've worked for you been involved

47:24

with and that you write about in the book the some

47:26

tell the boss total us are you said your first for to

47:28

leverage ah that was and then you know there's the elliot and

47:31

whenever else thinks ballot yeah some complications

47:33

in this area you intro

47:36

and i will i hadn't really thought about the

47:38

of the thread between them and i saw this

47:40

interview that he with sean the crease

47:42

over at new york magazine or sean references

47:44

of my favorite quotes the book where are

47:47

you talk about the fact that bill

47:49

de blasio had been courting

47:51

eliot spitzer to help with his campaign

47:54

into a thirteen and then turn

47:56

around and fired you when your

47:58

relationship with spits became one and this

48:00

is what euro

48:01

is that can why de blasio was pissed both

48:03

of us who tried to get in bed with elliot but only

48:06

one of had been successful now it's a sassy

48:08

comment and also not like a now

48:10

that kind of comment that a lot of women make

48:13

these days they're kind of like a little bit like pushing a little

48:15

envelope there and this is what sharma creek

48:17

road after setting that quote from

48:19

the book new york magazine this is what he says

48:21

about you

48:22

she's no school more post me to

48:25

workplace entanglements or verboten but

48:27

she has only so much patience

48:29

that quote my parents met the workplace when

48:31

my dad was a position my mom dated

48:34

my professor i do the kids i

48:36

consulted for in my case i have

48:38

like your any power dynamics my fully understand the other

48:40

circumstances might be different so here's

48:42

my question thinking about all these people including

48:44

them in the moment with hamas is

48:47

as you step back and reflect on do

48:49

think there's a chance you have have a blind spot

48:51

for me to stuff do you think of you reflected

48:53

on maybe i don't have that gene

48:56

that that the right car glasses to see that's

48:59

oh i don't think that

49:01

wasn't me to assess

49:03

why i understand that and they're all about gender

49:05

dynamics in there are things that have made women

49:07

feel to have a scout by all three those

49:09

gm that's and again

49:10

i guess what i would say is

49:13

for , hard end

49:15

as i am am is

49:18

still like an idealist in me

49:20

and i'm wants to see that fast and people

49:23

and see the best in in and

49:26

he of people were necessary think of that

49:28

way is up and of blind spot

49:30

for me to i mean i understand

49:33

this and me to is an important

49:35

long overdue conversation

49:38

five conversation understand that lysis complex

49:41

and that sometimes debates we

49:43

have over issues like me to art

49:45

complex and i

49:49

would chalk it up mostly to me

49:53

interim is why you believe wanted to believe

49:55

whatever your life so blair's if we want to live

49:57

in yes i would i

49:59

there's nice area that one of the gate

50:02

great virtues of the book is that

50:05

so many places where a temptation

50:07

where you could easily sundered away

50:10

in a self righteous

50:12

obnoxious club monday morning quarterback

50:14

twenty twenty

50:15

hindsight vision used to it

50:17

all on your card like living in the mess of the

50:19

moment and and that's the truth is that light as we

50:21

messy and you kind of embrace that you're writing other

50:23

it is very kind of like you rewrite your

50:25

critical of yourself and bill once isn't ambiguities

50:28

situations that actually are the gray area that is

50:30

most of the way we live in a professional

50:32

or personal situation is all in the bucket it's a very

50:34

not like i'm

50:36

a hero and i knew best kind

50:39

of book which i getting to graduate a lot of reasons

50:41

why on tragedy of the book the that's one of them gag

50:43

i can tell the put a lot time to make sure that was the case

50:45

the like come across that way

50:46

and because it wouldn't be credible

50:49

and it wouldn't be honest because

50:52

i'm conflicted feelings about all of

50:54

this stuff as he

50:56

or any real human being said

50:58

i'm not a politician i'm not running

51:00

for president i don't need to write some

51:03

saying where you know i

51:07

i don't know fabricate some amazing life story

51:09

for me in whatever it is spite

51:13

it was important to me missouri

51:17

people in the room like what it's actually

51:19

like and the complex all

51:21

the complex dynamic shifted us

51:23

like the moral decision said

51:25

professional decisions says

51:28

to sort of sliding doors moments

51:30

because are moments i could have walked out and

51:32

been fine and wash my hands

51:35

of things but these are the

51:37

things that you won't

51:39

want to get into politics should

51:41

know about and i want

51:43

them to read about in this box

51:46

to they understand that you

51:48

can be visits a lot of just decisions in

51:50

general not just in politics been life

51:52

or a some here's my around ready

51:54

as this what i really want these answers be quick the

51:57

i to be censored they minister now

51:59

joe biden

51:59

twenty twenty four years enough

52:03

really you're certain

52:05

okay that is record jodhaa trump running

52:07

and twenty twenty four yes or no yes yes

52:11

they've job i read on trump both reducing that means you

52:13

think they're going to either nominees of their respective

52:15

parties will have a replay and your mind your

52:17

magic and twenty twenty four is joe biden vs

52:19

on trump yeah we're all the marbles

52:21

including the future of our demise

52:23

the lightning round why you filibustering

52:26

discuss this girl scout

52:27

what's the book in your life it's meant the most

52:29

here

52:33

the we have faces fi cs lewis

52:37

what's the political buck

52:39

that matter most

52:41

they're all too human by george

52:43

stephanopoulos or what it takes

52:45

richard bend kramer

52:47

those are all very good answers and and was that

52:49

i swung say that the photo book this meant the most

52:51

to me lot

52:53

of any given to say the last ninety six

52:56

hours wasted is any given to their political a

52:58

story by the ones on that was miss i typically

53:00

business against a some media flows if

53:02

we could see you i kept you for what you love with a two parter

53:04

so it's like a be like a lawless methods as hard

53:07

everybody go by the bugs she's the best

53:10

not to say bengals are not

53:11

a really really the went to the superbowl

53:14

the watch the superbowl the site of us have sex

53:16

helen i water

53:18

a podcast from the recount thanks to get a list mets

53:20

were being with us remembered pick up was his

53:22

new book any given tuesday a political

53:25

love story if you like this episode please subscribe

53:27

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