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1:05

Hey, everyone. John Isleman here, and welcome

1:07

to Helen High Water. My podcast about politics

1:09

and culture on the edge of Armageddon. It's

1:12

determined if dubious, committed,

1:14

if cuckoo for cocoa puffs, often wrong,

1:17

but rarely in doubt exercise, in

1:19

elevated gas baggery. Than

1:21

neither rain nor snow nor heat nor gloom

1:23

of night nor the toxic

1:25

rantings of the not house right, a

1:27

president attempting to invalidate legitimate

1:30

election in stage an auto coup complete

1:32

with an armed disruption of the United States capital,

1:34

nor more broadly and arguably

1:36

even more disturbingly. The capture

1:39

of a decent sized chunk of our political, social,

1:41

and civic spheres by a cadre of

1:43

incoherent, insidious, conspiracy

1:45

adiled, conspiracy craving, authoritarian

1:48

worshiping lunatics, hustlers, grifters, nihilists,

1:51

and nincampups. None of it. None

1:53

of it has kept us from our

1:55

duly sworn duty and obligations.

1:57

Giving you our listeners a fresh

1:59

episode of this podcast week after week

2:02

after week after week. Maybe

2:04

not without fail because,

2:06

you know, hashtag epic fail

2:08

is one of our many models around here,

2:10

but certainly without a pause. We've

2:13

been doing that for more than two years.

2:16

Haven't had a break, all of

2:18

which is to say that I

2:20

am plumb shagged

2:23

out and desperately in need of

2:25

some R and R. And with the midterm

2:27

election now comfortably in the rearview

2:29

mirror in our democracy amazingly,

2:32

if I will admit a little unexpectedly, still

2:35

intact. It seems like a suitable

2:37

time for the Heilemann Water home

2:39

office to give itself a fucking

2:41

break. And so for the next few weeks,

2:44

that is exactly what we are gonna do.

2:46

And we'll see you back here on the other side of the holidays.

2:49

Tanned, rested, refreshed, revitalized, and

2:51

raring to go. Ready to

2:53

get back to cranking out more

2:56

tasty content. In the meantime,

2:58

Don't despair. We're not leaving

3:00

you entirely in the lurch for these

3:03

weeks. To the contrary, every

3:05

Tuesday morning, per usual, you

3:07

will find Aeb, hopefully unfamiliar

3:09

episode of the podcast, doing

3:11

the backstroke in your feed. Drop

3:14

there by the Abel AI fact totems

3:16

who'll be mining the store while we're away.

3:18

And while these episodes come

3:20

over the next few weeks, may not be fresh

3:23

or strictly speaking new,

3:25

they will be piping hot, a carefully

3:27

curated series of hell in high water golden

3:29

oldies, which those of you

3:32

who've been around from the start may remember,

3:35

I hope fondly. And those of you who

3:37

came along sometime later may never have

3:39

encountered it all. Given

3:41

our focus on politics these past few months

3:43

and our desire not to take a dump on

3:45

your mood of holiday inspired good cheer, we've

3:47

decided these encore presentations will avoid

3:49

that topic like the plague. And focuses set

3:51

on culture, entertainment, technology, and such with

3:53

a run of some of our most favorite guests in those

3:55

realms over the past two years, including

3:58

this beauty right here, which

4:00

whether or not you've heard it before, you will

4:02

not want to miss. And so with that,

4:05

we leave it to it with a hearty and heartfelt

4:07

Nalaste. Hey,

4:20

everyone. John Heilemann here, and welcome to Helen

4:22

High Water. My podcast from The Recast and iHeart

4:24

radio with big ups to the one and only Riza

4:26

for our dope theme music. First

4:30

things first, Happy new year, everyone,

4:32

by which I clearly mean, hashtag fuck

4:34

off twenty twenty and hashtag, hello,

4:37

twenty twenty one. As we roll out of

4:39

one political Asian into another from

4:41

the Trump era to the Biden era,

4:43

a great deal of changes a foot in the political

4:46

world. But no matter who is in the White House

4:48

or which party controls congress, Some

4:50

huge and hugely troubling issues,

4:52

as Jesus said of the poor, we always

4:54

have with us, and one of those issues is guns

4:57

and the carnage that has been parted parcel

4:59

of the perfusion of firearms in America.

5:02

So as we head into what we all dearly hope

5:04

will be a brighter and more hopeful future than

5:06

the recent past we all endured last year,

5:08

I thought it would be good to check-in with a central

5:11

figure in the fight against gun violence and

5:13

four gun

5:13

safety. Shannon Watts. The state of our

5:16

union when it comes guns is

5:18

actually a lot better than many

5:20

Americans realize that we are making true

5:22

progress in state houses

5:24

and in boardrooms in this country. And I think we're on

5:27

the precipice of major national

5:29

change.

5:33

Shannon Watts is the founder of mom's man action

5:35

for gunSense in America, a self described

5:38

accidental activist who in the space of

5:40

less than a decade, emerged as the

5:42

face of a grassroots movement that With

5:45

six million supporters, now boast

5:47

more members than the dreaded NRA. Shannon's

5:49

transformation was unexpected and took place

5:51

in something like a heartbeat. Before the

5:53

horrific Sandy Hook elementary school shooting

5:55

in Newton, Connecticut, shocked and shook

5:57

the nation in December two thousand twelve,

6:00

Shannon was a stay at home mom living

6:02

in Zionsville, Indiana. The day after

6:04

Sandy Hook, she started the Facebook group page

6:07

to connect with other parents who were scared

6:09

and outraged by the epidemic of school shootings

6:11

plaguing America. Shannon had only

6:13

seventy five friends on Facebook, but she titled

6:15

the page one million moms for

6:18

gun control. The conversation she started

6:20

there took hold quickly with thousands rallying

6:22

to a march organized the next month in Washington

6:24

DC, hundreds of volunteers lobbying

6:26

congress, and moms mad action

6:28

taking shape as an advocacy group based

6:30

loosely on the model of mothers against drunk

6:32

driving. By the end of twenty thirteen,

6:35

The group had a hundred and thirty thousand members and

6:37

chapters in all fifty states and announced

6:39

that it was joining forces with mayors against

6:41

illegal guns to form the umbrella group

6:43

every town for gun safety, largely

6:45

financed by former New York mayor Mike Bloomberg.

6:48

Since then, every town has become a political

6:50

juggernaut, spending millions of dollars to support

6:53

candidates, legislative campaigns, and corporate

6:55

reform efforts, and changing the political

6:57

dynamics around gun control in ways large

6:59

and small subtle and profound. I

7:02

wanted to talk to Shannon Watts about all of this

7:04

as well as the areas where progress has been harder

7:06

to achieve, about the disheartening increases

7:08

in gun sales, mass shootings, and domestic violence

7:11

last year during the COVID lockdowns about

7:13

the crisis at the NRA. And the roughly

7:15

three dozen moms demand action volunteers

7:18

who ran for office up and down the ballot and

7:20

one about the pivotal roles of women

7:22

and young people in the gun safety movement

7:24

And whether the election of Joe Biden and

7:26

Kamala Harris suggest reason for

7:28

optimism that common sense gun reform

7:30

might finally have a chance at the federal level

7:33

or if the CASM political divide on display

7:35

in the twenty twenty election and its aftermath

7:38

means that Congress will remain as stubbornly

7:40

resistant to positive change as verb.

7:42

And in fact, Shannon and I covered

7:45

all of that more in a conversation where

7:47

her heart and hope consistently went

7:49

out over hell in high water.

7:56

Just briefly, sir. Can I just ask,

7:58

is there anything in your mind that the president

8:00

can do now to make his new bed up?

8:03

What do you think? You know

8:05

the shit he's been saying? He's he's been calling

8:08

Mexican immigrants rapidness in criminals.

8:10

I I don't know. Like, members

8:12

of the press, what the fuck? Hold on

8:14

a second. You know, III

8:17

it's it's these It's these questions

8:19

that you know the answers to. I mean, connect

8:21

the dots about what he's been doing in this country.

8:24

He's not tolerating racism. He's promoting

8:26

racism. Not tolerating violence. He's

8:28

inciting racism and violence in

8:30

his country. So, you know,

8:32

I I just I I don't know what kind

8:34

of question that is. So

8:36

that was better a work in famously viral

8:39

moment after the mass shooting in

8:41

El Paso. And one of the

8:43

things that kind of contributed to his passion

8:45

and his national profile on the subject of

8:47

gun reform and we are here today with Shannon

8:49

Watts from mom's demand in every

8:51

town in all of those organizations that are

8:53

trying to make the world better on this

8:54

front. Shannon's to see you. How are you doing? Oh,

8:57

it's wonderful to see you. And, you

8:59

know, it's a new year and

9:01

a new

9:02

beginning. And I think that this issue

9:04

will be front and center. You know, I started

9:06

by playing Beto just because in

9:08

this podcast, I like to talk a little bit about

9:10

the present and then a little bit

9:12

about the past. And then a little bit about the future.

9:15

And so for our purposes, the president really still lose

9:17

twenty twenty. And I think of that moment in

9:19

the presidential campaign when, you know,

9:21

if there was any issue that better work seemed

9:23

to have some traction in the national dialogue.

9:25

It was obviously around guns in in that moment

9:28

when his hometown, the place he lives, the place he

9:30

works, was afflicted by the all too

9:32

common plague of mass

9:34

shooting that obviously

9:36

emotional and genuine and spontaneous

9:39

on camera moment sort of connected

9:42

with a lot of people. And I wonder whether

9:44

as we just think about this past year, I know

9:46

you're optimistic about the future. We will talk a lot

9:48

about that today. Twenty twenty was a weird

9:50

year in a lot of in a lot of ways. You

9:53

know, among the many issues that

9:55

did not really seem to ever really get

9:58

litigated in the presidential campaign.

10:00

Once we got into twenty twenty, you

10:02

know, the issue of guns was not

10:04

an issue that really was front and center

10:06

in the presidential race, at least. Right? mean,

10:08

obviously, Joe Biden and Donald Trump had very different

10:10

positions on the question, but it was not, you know,

10:12

front and center in the way that maybe

10:15

that that maybe it could have been or should have been.

10:17

And I wonder whether you're disappointed at

10:19

all in the notion that another

10:22

presidential campaign goes by in

10:24

which this issue was not pivotal

10:27

to the outcome or central

10:29

to the debate in what was

10:31

obviously, a big and important, maybe, life

10:33

changing election for a lot of people.

10:37

I I guess, I would argue that little

10:39

bit with you, and and you probably won't be surprised

10:41

given what I do as full time volunteer.

10:43

But I felt like it was a

10:45

big part of the discussion certainly

10:47

COVID and as that became a

10:49

national crisis took center stage,

10:52

but it's important to remember

10:54

that there wasn't a single Democrat running

10:56

for president that

10:59

didn't support this issue. And in fact,

11:02

they were competing with one another

11:04

during the primaries to see who could be

11:07

the best on the issue of gun

11:09

safety, and that is a sea change in

11:11

American politics. I I think it's

11:13

important to go back really quickly to twenty

11:15

ten. When a quarter

11:17

of all Democrats in Congress had an

11:19

a rating from the NRA. If

11:22

you flash forward to the twenty twenty

11:24

elections, only one member

11:26

of congress, a man in

11:28

Minnesota, had an a rating from the

11:30

NRA. He did lose. He lost to

11:32

an even more extreme candidate, and that's

11:34

a whole another discussion. But my point

11:37

being that we have come

11:39

so far on this issue that

11:41

For many years, people considered a political

11:43

third rail. And now, you really do have

11:46

to be on the right side of this issue, at least as a Democrat,

11:49

to even be considered a contender.

11:51

That is certainly been a sea change. It's no

11:53

longer sort of the third rail. I mean,

11:55

in my generation, you think about so

11:57

many Democrats had their consciousness shaped

12:01

around this in the early nineteen nineties

12:03

by taking votes on the assault

12:05

weapons ban and then being targeted by the NRA,

12:07

and these are all kind of cautionary tales. If

12:09

you take a tough vote on gun control, the NRA

12:11

will come after you, you'll lose your seat and so that

12:13

that tended to instill caution. Well,

12:16

there's still lot to discuss I think in terms of the

12:18

the congressional situation because it's not been a lot of progress

12:20

on that front ever since. But I think you're right certainly

12:22

in terms of how the

12:24

playing field has shifted. And now in the least in the

12:26

Democratic Party should say the competition is, who can

12:28

be best on gun control, gun

12:31

safety, gun sensible, gun sensor

12:33

reform? Know, I said twenty twenty has

12:35

been weird year. And I guess I just wanna

12:37

get your sense of it. I mean, I've been looking at these statistics

12:39

and I don't know what

12:41

I thought would happen in COVID. I mean, if you'd asked

12:43

me, there's gonna be giant pandemic in America, what

12:46

will happen to the question of mass shootings? What

12:48

will happen to gun homicides. What will

12:50

happen to gun ownership? don't

12:52

know that I would have been surmised that what

12:54

did happen would happen, which is that everything

12:56

went up. Like, everything went up. Right?

12:58

I mean, even the things that you don't think should have gone

13:00

up like school shootings, see if because there were people in

13:02

school, there were more school shootings, more mass

13:04

shootings, more gun, homicides, more

13:07

domestic abuse, more like there's not a metric

13:09

by which twenty twenty wasn't an off

13:11

the charts bad year when it comes to

13:13

guns. Was that what you expected

13:16

when we went into lockdown? Yes.

13:18

Absolutely. Look, we have four

13:20

hundred million guns in this country and very

13:23

few gun laws. And We

13:25

now look back on those first few months

13:27

of the COVID crisis and can see that there was

13:29

a historic number of gun sales many

13:31

of those two first time buyers who

13:34

may live in states that don't require permitting

13:36

or training. And we

13:38

were seeing these calls to suicide

13:40

hotlines and to domestic violence, hotlines

13:43

spike. And so the

13:45

logical outcome of

13:47

those things is to see COVID

13:50

exacerbate gun violence, two

13:52

crises, two uniquely American

13:54

crises that are spinning out of control.

13:57

We know that women are isolated with

13:59

domestic abusers, many of whom have easy

14:01

access to guns. We know tens of millions

14:04

of kids are home unexpectedly

14:06

from school. Also with easy access

14:08

to guns. We know Americans are

14:12

struggling with isolation and concerns

14:14

about their economic welfare. Also, with

14:17

easy access to guns. We

14:19

know that in city centers in this country

14:21

where they rely on violence interruption

14:23

programs that can no longer get out in

14:25

their communities and interact again

14:28

with easy access to guns. And so,

14:30

sadly, this is sort of the logical

14:32

outcome of allowing essentially

14:35

gun lobbyists to write our gun laws for

14:37

decades.

14:38

I think I'm right when I say we don't have because

14:40

of the nature our system. We don't have really

14:42

a comprehensive database for gun

14:44

sales. Right? We don't really know how many guns got

14:46

bought. We do know how many background checks there were.

14:48

Exactly. That's exactly right. Because

14:51

many people don't realize. I sound like Donald

14:53

Trump, many people don't realize.

14:54

But, you

14:55

know, it It's a guy, Donald Trump. I don't think you have to

14:57

worry about it. Thank you. Thank you. You know, in this

14:59

country, when you buy a

15:01

gun from a licensed dealer, by

15:04

law, you have to have a background check.

15:06

Now, there's something called Charleston loophole,

15:08

which means that if in three days a background

15:11

check hasn't cleared, that dealer

15:13

can go ahead and sell the gun.

15:15

Now, that again is being exacerbated

15:18

by COVID because there's this huge backlog of

15:20

guns being sold, and the time to do background

15:22

check has slowed down. But

15:25

in this country also on unlicensed

15:28

gun sales, no background checkers

15:30

were required except now in twenty

15:32

two states.

15:33

Right? So that means that those

15:35

aren't being tracked and taken into account.

15:37

I don't think we have a complete number for twenty

15:40

twenty yet, but think at the end of November

15:42

was thirty two million dollars some background

15:44

checks, which is a record setting number.

15:46

And as you say, I think a lot of from

15:48

what you can tell anecdotally, at least a lot of people are

15:50

first time buyers. And obviously, that leads to a lot of

15:52

unintentional shootings. And you're not just talking

15:54

about murders and other acts of premeditated

15:57

violence you're talking about suicides and a

15:59

lot of unintentional shootings that take place, and

16:01

that's obviously been a huge problem. Again, I say the

16:03

statistics are all up. There's

16:05

another problem though, right, which is

16:08

why do you see an explosion in in firearm

16:11

acquisition and background checks? And,

16:13

you know, there was a a part of our political

16:15

spectrum that chose to

16:18

seize on the pandemic to

16:21

try to drive the rhetoric

16:23

of fear. I mean, it's the NRA most

16:25

visibly, but, you know, a lot of gun rights

16:28

advocates whose attitude is we

16:30

use pretty much anything to try to scare people.

16:32

They're coming to take your guns, which is a very common

16:34

rhetorical trope of that

16:36

crowd. But in the in a moment of

16:38

trauma, in a moment of national

16:41

crisis. That's their go to

16:43

move. Right? Try to scare the shit out of people

16:45

and say you gotta stockpile your guns because

16:48

don't know when we're gonna get out of this lockdown and we don't

16:50

know what's gonna happen next and this is oppressive government and you

16:52

don't know when they're gonna come and try to take your guns, you need

16:54

to be safe and so go get your guns. And

16:56

that works. Right? That has been

16:58

an effective rhetorical posture for

17:01

the gun rights lobby for a long

17:02

time. And it was during

17:03

COVID, it

17:04

seems to me. Yeah, you know, every country

17:06

is struggling with this COVID

17:08

crisis and keeping it in check.

17:10

Only America has simultaneously given

17:13

all of its citizens incredibly easy access,

17:16

unregulated access to guns. And

17:19

that's a recipe for disaster. And

17:22

we have seen the NRA engage in

17:24

this kind of rhetoric for decades.

17:27

You can go all the way back to hurricane Katrina.

17:29

And see gun lobbyists saying

17:32

the only solution to natural disasters

17:35

is to be armed. We saw it after

17:37

the hurricanes in Texas where gun

17:39

lobbyists were actually able to go into the state

17:41

and loosen gun laws to say, okay, well,

17:43

you don't need a permit of any kind to

17:45

carry a gun in the wake of natural

17:47

disasters. And so when

17:50

COVID happened in this country, you know, the

17:52

gun lobby has saw dollar signs. And

17:54

we saw them put out ads and

17:57

amp up the rhetoric around the

17:59

need to be armed. And they

18:01

were able to get gun

18:03

stores to be considered essential businesses

18:05

in many places. The ATF allowed

18:07

curbside gun sales. And when

18:09

you think about it, if you step back,

18:12

it's insanity. And yet

18:14

that again is what

18:17

we've created in terms of political dynamic

18:19

in this country where the special interest

18:21

is deciding

18:22

what our gun laws should be. Yeah. You

18:25

know, so much our politics are driven by the rhetoric

18:27

of fear, but it's in

18:29

this particular case, you already have so much

18:31

fear and for completely

18:34

natural and predictable. And in some

18:36

cases, legitimate reasons. I mean, people are scared

18:38

in the middle of this pandemic. People are scared for a lot

18:40

of reasons. In the course of twenty twenty, a lot of them make

18:42

a lot of sense and you see people who

18:44

want to stoke that fear and

18:46

then capitalize on it. As you said, you know, that

18:49

crowd sort of had dollar signs in

18:51

its eyes. And yet, I've heard

18:53

you say, and I've heard others say,

18:55

you know, even as we've seen this

18:57

rush towards gun ownership, in

18:59

country that loves guns and there were

19:01

a ton of guns already. It's kinda amazing

19:03

just to think that somehow twenty twenty was

19:05

unusual by our normal standards. But I

19:07

said against that, this was

19:09

not a great year for the NRA, right? This has

19:12

not been a year in which, I mean, by

19:14

some measures, by some political measures, the

19:16

NRA is more on its heels

19:18

than it's been. I think in my lifetime

19:20

covering politics, you know, its dues collection

19:22

is down. Wayne Lappier is under investigation

19:25

by the IRS for tax fraud. You got the

19:27

Leticia James, the Attorney General in New York

19:29

has pledged civil suit against the NRA. And

19:32

then there's the larger political shift you talked about

19:34

before, which is that people in the gun safety

19:36

gun sensible gun reform cause

19:38

people in the movement have are on

19:40

the front foot. Right? And so to just talk little

19:42

bit about that, about what has the

19:44

long been a David and Goliath struggle --

19:46

Mhmm. -- kind of in the cliche. It's

19:48

not quite like that anymore. It's starting to seem

19:51

like a little bit more of a fair fight.

19:53

Oh, absolutely. I mean, first of all,

19:55

the NRA's calculus, the gun lobby's calculus,

19:58

the return on investment has been dwindling

20:00

over the last decade on their

20:02

election spending. So you've got that

20:05

to begin with. And then

20:07

you can see year after year like

20:10

what happens to so many special interests. They

20:12

got so much power and wealth that

20:15

they began to think there was a different set of rules

20:17

for their organization. And there

20:19

was a lot of self dealing, you know, we

20:21

know they're under investigation for

20:23

for potentially being foreign assets.

20:26

Weymop here was spending tens

20:28

of thousands of dollars on Italian suits

20:31

and private jet travel. This is

20:33

not how a non profit organization

20:35

behaves. Certainly, they were

20:37

acting with impunity. And

20:39

they are under investigation on many different

20:42

fronts, but They're also

20:44

in many ways broke. They have spent

20:46

tens of millions of dollars on legal fees

20:48

alone because of these investigations.

20:52

And if you look

20:54

at the bet they made on Donald Trump, they spent

20:56

thirty million dollars on his campaign in twenty

20:59

sixteen. They really

21:01

thought that they would turn right around

21:03

and pass their priority gun legislation,

21:05

which was really two things, concealed

21:07

carry reciprocity. Which means the

21:09

lowest common denominator in

21:12

a state to get a gun permit would apply

21:14

to the entire country. Right? It would it would

21:16

essentially upend state's rights. The

21:19

second thing they wanted to do was to deregulate

21:21

silencers, which they laughingly

21:23

refer to as the Hearing Protection Act.

21:29

And I've seen the whole life. Matter,

21:31

but it really, it's it's at this it's so

21:33

absurd that you can't help the laugh

21:35

or else you'll

21:36

cry. God forbid you air, you know, ear

21:38

plugs, but they failed

21:40

on both fronts. It's really important to remember

21:42

that that we got so good at playing defense

21:45

since two thousand twelve that we were able

21:47

to stop a Republican president and a Republican

21:49

congress for passing the

21:51

gun lobby priority legislation, and they've given tens

21:54

of millions of dollars to these lawmakers. And

21:56

so that is in many ways what

21:58

is the beginning of the end of the NRA.

22:00

I think as we know it, Are they

22:03

able to still juice gun sales? Yes,

22:06

they are. And will they again when Biden

22:08

starts to talk about executive

22:11

actions? Yes. But

22:13

the NRA does not have the same

22:15

power that they used to have because

22:18

they really had a decision to make, I think,

22:20

after the Sandy Hook shooting tragedy in two thousand

22:22

twelve. Come to the Heilemann

22:25

support background checks.

22:29

Or double down. I don't

22:31

know if I'd be sitting here having this conversation with

22:33

you. If they'd allowed Congress to pass back projects,

22:35

we might have thought, okay, our work here is done.

22:37

Right. But instead, they doubled down

22:40

and created really a whole

22:42

movement of millions and millions of

22:43

Americans. I mean, we're bigger than the NRA now.

22:46

That is opposing them at every turn.

22:48

Bigger by what metric? We have

22:50

about six million supporters. They have

22:52

five. They claim I think

22:54

a lot of those people aren't alive and scribe

22:56

to their magazines and you have to sign up as an NRA

22:59

member when you buy a gun that kind of the work.

23:01

But we have this

23:04

huge grassroots army of volunteers like

23:06

myself who show up at every

23:08

gun bill hearing, who have relationships

23:10

with lawmakers, who have become political powerhouses

23:12

even in the redis of

23:14

states. And I think it

23:16

was their worst nightmare that women and mothers

23:18

would organize against them. There's a very interesting

23:20

multilayer kind of thing going on here. Right? Because

23:22

on one hand, with a sick society

23:24

with respect to guns. Right? And for anybody

23:26

who studies comparative crime across

23:28

the industrialized world, these are all now. I remember

23:31

back with that time when this was used to stunned people,

23:33

but you know, there's not really an honest criminologist

23:35

who doesn't come to the conclusion that the thing that really sets

23:38

everything apart is the difference between America's

23:40

easy access to guns and that's what is the

23:42

difference between the violent crime rates

23:44

in America and the rest of industrialized world. And there

23:46

are other cultural, powerful, like cultural,

23:48

and spiritual elements to this that have

23:50

and hold in the country. And so you look at twenty twenty,

23:52

you look at COVID, you look at those stats that I signed

23:54

earlier, and you think, man, this is

23:56

a grim picture. And

23:58

then there's this other picture, which is the picture

24:01

I think you're pointing to, which think it doesn't ameliorate

24:03

the first picture's ugliness, but

24:06

it does seem to me that there's not gonna

24:08

be a thunderbolt or a lightning clap. Maybe

24:10

it's a thunderclap and a lightning bolt. A thunderbolt.

24:13

I don't know. Whatever that bad mix metaphor

24:15

is. I think there's not gonna be this moment

24:17

where the NRA has now been filled

24:19

and it is now no longer a know,

24:22

these legacy organizations take a long time

24:24

to after fee and they wither away rather

24:26

than getting kind of knocked down in one fell swoop.

24:28

But you can sign a see it. Right? You can start

24:30

to see the way in which the struts underneath

24:33

it are kind of being kicked out and the

24:35

hollowness of it is starting to be exposed

24:38

by a lot of factors including the ones you've cited

24:40

just now. You guys said, what? Sixty million

24:42

dollars or so on the on the

24:44

the gun control or the gun safety, whatever

24:46

you wanna call it, that side of the ledger. You guys

24:48

were out there toe to toe with

24:50

the NRA and the gun rights people in the

24:52

congressional elections, local elections across the

24:54

country in in terms of the the broad spectrum

24:57

of American elections in twenty

24:58

twenty. Right? Yeah, you know,

25:01

I always say this is a marathon, not a sprint.

25:03

It takes most social movements

25:05

and decades to get traction and create

25:08

real change. I wish it would

25:10

happen overnight. That's not the way our

25:12

system is set up. So often it is

25:14

incremental change. But

25:16

it's important to remember that if

25:19

you go back to the spring

25:21

of twenty thirteen, when mentioned

25:23

to me, and that was bipartisan bill

25:26

that would have closed the background check loophole

25:28

in honor of the massacre

25:30

at the Sandy Hook School. It bailed

25:32

by handful of votes in the Senate. But

25:35

it's important to remember some of the senators

25:37

who voted against it were democrats.

25:40

Not a single one of them still holds their

25:42

job. The lesson that

25:44

Democrats learned after

25:47

that was that with

25:49

friends like the NRA no one need enemies.

25:51

And that's because every Democrat who voted with

25:53

the NRA was opposed by the NRA

25:56

in the following election. I mean, if you look at Mark

25:58

Pryor in Arkansas, he voted against Manchin

26:00

Tumi what did the NRA do? They went and poured

26:02

millions of dollars into Tom Cotton's campaign.

26:05

And so that was a real turning

26:07

point in this country. And then it really

26:10

started to show that the NRA's bet

26:12

of doubling down was not going to pay off.

26:14

So what did we do? We had just started

26:16

as an organization a few months

26:18

earlier. And again,

26:21

we could have said, okay, the country isn't ready

26:23

for this, the timing is wrong,

26:25

let's go back to our normal lives. Instead,

26:27

what many of our brilliant volunteers did

26:30

was to pivot and to say,

26:32

okay, Congress isn't gonna do this.

26:35

But there are governors who will.

26:38

And we can do this work in state houses and

26:40

in board rooms and eventually point

26:42

the right president in the right Congress in the right

26:44

direction. And so that's what we started

26:46

to do. And since then,

26:48

in the last eight years, we

26:51

have now passed background checks in

26:53

twenty two states. We have disarmed

26:55

domestic abusers in twenty nine

26:57

states, and we've passed something called the red flag

26:59

law in nineteen states.

27:00

Hold on one sec, Shannon. Red flag laws

27:02

are So a red flag

27:04

law allows, depending on

27:06

the state, a family member

27:09

or a police officer, to petition

27:11

a judge for temporary restraining order

27:13

that will remove the guns from someone who is

27:15

a a risk to themselves or others.

27:19

And this is something that passed in Florida,

27:21

for example, after Parkland. It passed in

27:23

California after the UCSB shooting. It's

27:25

a really important tool for

27:28

law enforcement to

27:30

figure out if someone is truly

27:33

a risk to the community. Howard Bauchner:

27:35

So, yeah, that obviously would be an important

27:37

tool. I mean, that's a preventative tool. Right? You're

27:39

getting ahead of potentially

27:42

bad violent situation with guns because you

27:44

would know in advance someone was a risk

27:46

due to mental health, and then you can intervene

27:48

on the front side before an emergency

27:51

happens before something bad actually unfolds,

27:53

you know, red flag laws and disarming

27:56

domestic violence abusers. Those are both

27:58

like, pretty big wins. Yes. Yeah.

28:00

Not to mention the dozens and

28:03

dozens of companies that have now changed

28:05

their corporate policies around OpenCarrie because

28:07

of pressure we've put on them. And that's

28:09

just because we're women pulling

28:11

the levers of power available to us. Now I

28:13

say we're women. We're actually mothers and others

28:15

now. But we are the majority of the voting public.

28:18

We make the majority of spending decisions for our families,

28:20

and that's how we force change.

28:23

But the other thing we didn't realize was

28:25

how much time we were gonna have to spend stopping

28:27

the NRA's agenda in state houses. Right? These

28:30

bills that they were putting forward were just were flying

28:32

through state houses, arming teachers,

28:35

permitless carry, stand your ground,

28:37

guns on college campuses, really

28:40

sort of the NRA's Dream,

28:42

which was a public safety nightmare, was

28:46

happening in states across the country.

28:48

And we now have a ninety percent track

28:50

record of stopping the NRA's agenda

28:52

year after year for the last five

28:54

years. And so

28:56

when you talk about how things have changed,

28:59

you know, that's something the gun lobby never expected

29:01

to not just have us play

29:03

offense, but to be really good at playing defense.

29:05

Yeah. And I think, you know, that the man too

29:08

many things seems like a turning point in some ways because, you know,

29:10

it was a defeat. Right? A kind of a bitter

29:12

and brutal defeat in many ways for the movement

29:14

and yet also a turning point in terms

29:16

of recognizing you recognize

29:18

a lot of things on the base of that. Right? In some ways,

29:20

the Congress was not necessarily not only

29:23

wasn't the only game in town, but was maybe

29:25

not the main game in town, and that you're gonna

29:27

try to win, you needed to win, as

29:29

you said, boardrooms, state legislatures, local,

29:32

all over the country. It was this was a thing that, you know,

29:34

if you just focused on Washington, not only were

29:36

you gonna frustrated, but it's actually not

29:38

the place where most of the I mean, it's

29:40

an important arena for change, but it's not,

29:42

by any means, the only arena or even arguably

29:44

the most important arena for change given the not only touch so

29:46

federal law. And so there's a big lesson

29:49

in that, I think. I remember hearing

29:51

you talk about this. There was a moment where you sort

29:53

of thought with that

29:54

loss. Maybe this is all over and that it's all gonna

29:56

fall apart. And then it turned out to be quite the opposite.

29:58

Howard Bauchner: I have got that, you know, so

30:00

many times along the way. Right? There's

30:02

all these inflection points where you think, okay,

30:04

can can we go on? And

30:07

we decided very early on as an organization

30:10

that really our motto was going to be losing

30:12

forward. Right? You don't take on one of the most wealthy

30:14

powerful interest that's ever existed

30:17

and expect to have a one hundred percent

30:19

win rate. We knew we were going

30:21

to lose and we did lose not

30:23

just mentioned to me, but in state houses as

30:25

well. Now we win more than we lose, thankfully.

30:28

But I'll tell you the story of

30:30

Arkansas quickly. I think it's a really important

30:32

example. You know, I would go to Little Rock

30:35

to visit our volunteers once

30:37

a year for the first couple of years and they never

30:40

grew. They were lovely people. But we would

30:42

have lunch. And I think they

30:44

just kind of expressed this idea that

30:46

many people didn't think it was worth their

30:48

time in Arkansas. That it was such a a losing

30:51

battle that they might as well spend their time

30:53

another way. Right. So then

30:55

what happened? A bill

30:57

to allow guns on college campus

31:00

even at tailgates and inside

31:02

stadiums, sailed through the state

31:04

house, the governor signed

31:06

it into law standing next to the chief

31:08

lobbyist of the NRA. And

31:10

it's so pissed off in particular

31:13

women and moms across the state that

31:16

They came out in droves to volunteer

31:19

for our organization. And

31:22

we used that newfound strength

31:25

in numbers to go back in

31:27

immediately and carve out an

31:29

exemption so that guns would not actually be

31:31

allowed inside stadiums. And

31:33

then the next year, we had two

31:35

of our volunteers run for office and win.

31:37

One of them ran against the guy that put the guns on

31:39

campus go forward and beat him handily.

31:43

He was a retired nurse and a monstimate action

31:45

volunteer. The year after that,

31:48

we had become such a political powerhouse in the

31:51

state of Arkansas. Again, we're talking about

31:52

Arkansas. Yes. We're talking about

31:54

like, you wanna, like, provide please remind me and

31:56

say, we're not talking here about Washington

31:58

State or

31:59

Oregon of Vermont. We're talking here

32:01

about Arkansas. And

32:02

there is a Republican super majority, and

32:04

we beat Standard Ground twice and

32:07

lawmakers were interviewed afterward

32:09

and they said that the NRA's agenda was

32:11

too extreme for the state of Arkansas. So

32:15

would we be where we are in the state of Arkansas

32:17

now? Had we not had that loss

32:19

initially? I don't think so. And that's

32:21

the losing forward motto. Yeah.

32:24

Losing forward is a it encapsulates a

32:26

really important thing about I'd say about

32:28

politics in general, but certainly about activist politics

32:30

and trying to take on big, strong, and trenchant

32:33

entrenched interest where it's it's partly a strategy

32:35

of necessity, but also a strategy that has

32:37

innate kind of inherent power

32:40

it if you can embrace it. I wanna just ask you one

32:42

last thing real quick before we take a break. I

32:44

think, you know, in this cycle, in addition to spending a

32:46

lot of money, to try to help candidates and help

32:48

your causes across the country. I think it's now the case

32:51

that there's thirty five. Maybe it's

32:53

more thirty five. Mom's demand volunteers.

32:56

People have been associated with the organization have went on

32:58

in one elective office in twenty

33:00

twenty. Is that the that number ring a bell to you? Is that

33:02

sound right? It's now forty three. So

33:04

just this election cycle alone, we had over

33:06

one hundred mom's to man action volunteers

33:08

and gun violence survivors run for office.

33:11

We now have two volunteers sitting in

33:13

congress, Lucy McBath and Marie Heilemann. Yeah.

33:16

But other volunteers, one seats

33:18

in state houses like Kansas and

33:20

Wisconsin, in Ohio and

33:23

even in local school board and city council

33:26

races. And I think that is in many ways

33:28

moms two point zero. Right? This idea

33:30

of moving not just from

33:32

shaping policy, but to actually making it. I

33:34

wanna come back around that when we get into our

33:37

more future oriented part of this conversation toward the end

33:39

of the podcast, Lucy McBath and the Georgia six.

33:41

Marie Newman in Illinois three,

33:43

both important women and potential powerhouses

33:46

in Congress, particularly this McBath, who's an incredibly

33:48

impressive Heilemann, and there's much to say about

33:50

her. You said forty three forty

33:52

three is the number now?

33:53

Forty three volunteers, this election cycle,

33:55

that doesn't even include others who run-in the

33:57

past. As

33:57

we're making up our our grand tote board here

34:00

of twenty twenty, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

34:02

That is a new thing for you. Right? I mean, that but

34:04

not new isn't there's never been demand people

34:07

who've run for office before, but that is in

34:09

place where you're going essentially, and this is one of the

34:11

things I wanna talk about a little later. Essentially, what

34:13

we're seeing is the difference

34:15

between having marshaled moms and

34:17

others, not just moms, as activists.

34:19

It's now kinda making that shit from activism to

34:22

policy making and being elected officials

34:24

who are getting actually into the positions where they don't have

34:26

to be working from the outside or where they can work from the

34:28

inside. And this seems like in some ways, a a landmark

34:30

election. On that metric alone for your

34:32

movement, this has been kind of twenty twenty will go

34:34

down in

34:35

history. Is that a kind of a landmark year? Right?

34:37

Yeah. Obviously, women

34:40

are realizing that

34:42

as the saying goes, if you don't have a seat

34:44

at the table, you're probably on the menu. And

34:47

women only make up about seventeen

34:49

percent of the five hundred thousand elected

34:51

positions in this country. And

34:54

what happens when you become a mom's demand

34:56

action volunteer is you spend

34:58

a lot of time in your state house and you realize

35:01

that these are not rocket scientists eighty percent

35:03

of these lawmakers are men. And

35:05

they don't necessarily care what you have to say

35:07

nor are they geniuses. And

35:10

if you are someone who is caring and

35:12

compassionate and concerned, then

35:14

you are more than qualified to hold

35:17

elected office. And so I think

35:19

it is a logical jump to spend all

35:21

of this time as an advocate to

35:23

say, you know, I I can actually be

35:25

a lawmaker. If you don't have a seat

35:27

at the table, you are probably on

35:29

your menu. And even for those of us, the

35:31

rare person you run into in America who

35:33

is in favor of cannibalism, they don't

35:35

wanna be the one actually on the menu. That

35:37

prefer to be the one at the table. We're gonna take

35:39

a break real quick and then come back with Shannon Watts

35:42

to talk some more about guns here on

35:44

Helen High Water. Let's listen to some commercials.

35:51

We gather here in memory of

35:54

twenty beautiful children. And

35:58

six remarkable adults. They

36:02

lost their lives in a school that

36:05

could have been any school. In

36:08

a quiet town full of good and decent people

36:11

that could be any town in America. Here

36:16

in Newtown, I come

36:18

to offer the love and

36:21

prayers of a nation. I

36:25

am very mindful

36:28

that mere words cannot match

36:31

the depths of your

36:32

sorrow. Nor

36:34

can they heal your wounded

36:36

hearts. I

36:39

can only hope it helps for you to

36:41

know that you're not alone

36:44

in your grief. That

36:48

our world too has been torn

36:49

apart. That

36:53

all across this land of ours, we

36:55

have wept with you.

36:59

We pulled our

37:01

children tight. And

37:04

you must know that whatever

37:07

measure of comfort we can provide. We

37:11

will provide. Whatever

37:14

portion of sadness that

37:16

we can share with you to ease

37:19

this heavy load. We

37:22

will gladly bear. Newtown,

37:27

you are not alone.

37:29

So that is the forty fourth president of

37:31

the United States. Brock Obama

37:34

speaking at a memorial service at Newtown

37:37

High School in December of

37:39

twenty twelve just a couple of

37:41

days after the mass shooting

37:44

in that school in Sandy Hook and up in Connecticut.

37:47

The devastating moment Obama had just been

37:49

reelected in twenty twelve and then had

37:51

to face the horror of Newtown, which

37:53

he later said, was like literally

37:55

the hardest thing that he confronted in

37:58

all of his eight years in office. You

38:00

know, we all know there have been a mind numbing

38:03

number of mass shootings and school shootings in America

38:05

over these past twenty years, Shannon. But they wanted

38:08

Sandy Hook had a different kind of

38:10

impact on a lot of people. Barack

38:12

Obama obviously as I said was one, but it

38:14

also had a huge impact on you at about the

38:16

same time. You were living in

38:18

Indiana, not personally connected,

38:21

even tangentially to this tragedy, and

38:23

yet, you know, in very short order,

38:26

you turned your life upside down and put

38:28

gun control against if you're right at the center of your life.

38:31

You've told the story a bunch of times, but

38:33

I'd love for you to tell it again here. For

38:35

the listeners of Heilemann Water?

38:37

So to give some background, I

38:39

had about a decade long career in corporate

38:42

communications where I spent thousands

38:44

and thousands of hours writing press releases

38:46

and honing messages and working with executives

38:49

and telling stories. Right? So that was

38:51

the background that I had. I took

38:53

a five year break because I was blending

38:55

my family with my my husband's together.

38:57

We have five kids. Everything

39:00

from elementary school to college at the time

39:03

and it was the end of that five year

39:05

break. I was getting ready to go back to

39:07

work. I was trying to to find a job.

39:10

And folding laundry, very

39:13

cold day outside of Indianapolis in

39:15

my home. And I see on

39:17

the television that there's an active shooter

39:20

in a place called Newton, Connecticut. And

39:23

it's right before the holiday. You're

39:25

seeing this footage of of children being

39:27

ushered out of school crying, families showing

39:30

up in the parking lot, terrified

39:32

and devastated. And like the rest of

39:34

America, you know, I just sort of sat down on the edge of

39:36

my bed and and watched this unfold. Never

39:38

imagining that the outcome would be so

39:41

horrific that twenty children and

39:43

six educators were slaughtered in

39:45

the sanctity of an American elementary school.

39:49

But I very quickly became

39:52

enraged and that was because politicians

39:54

and pundits were on my television set so

39:56

shortly

39:57

after, we knew what

39:59

had happened inside that school, saying

40:01

that the solution was somehow more

40:03

guns And

40:05

I knew nothing about organizing. I knew nothing

40:07

about gun violence. I

40:10

just knew that that was a lie.

40:12

I knew our country was broken, and because

40:15

congress had done absolutely nothing in the

40:17

wake of Gavi Gifford shooting,

40:19

their own colleague, I

40:21

knew that nothing would be done.

40:24

And so the day after the

40:26

tragedy, I went online in my kitchen,

40:28

on my counter on my laptop thinking

40:31

I'm gonna join something like mothers against drunk

40:33

driving for gun safety surely that already

40:36

exists. And

40:38

it didn't. I had seventy

40:40

five Facebook friends. I decided

40:42

I would start a new Facebook page. I had

40:44

just learned how to do that. I

40:48

called it one million moms for gun control.

40:51

Very shortly thereafter, my daughter who was gay

40:54

informed me that one million moms

40:56

was an anti gay group trying to get Ellen

40:58

DeGeneres not to be this spokesperson for J.

41:00

C. Penney. And then I got a

41:02

call from a congresswoman who said, if you have

41:04

the name gun control, in your organization's name, we

41:06

will never be able to work

41:08

with you. So our name changed quickly

41:10

thereafter, but I started this Facebook page

41:13

And it was truly like lightning in

41:15

a bottle. You know, you hear about that on social media.

41:17

And somehow, at

41:20

least one of my friends seventy five

41:22

Facebook friends connected me to others and

41:24

on and on and on until within

41:27

a week, you know, I was on the front page

41:29

of USA Today. So clearly,

41:31

this was something that was

41:33

needed, something that was necessary, and

41:35

so many others had that same idea

41:37

that day. Howard Bauchner: So here's

41:40

a number of things about this story that

41:42

I find, you know, fascinating.

41:44

Right? I mean, the audacity of

41:47

someone who does not

41:49

have a background in activism, did not

41:51

really know how to use social media, who's

41:54

not someone who's an ex bird in this area

41:56

who had not even really been personally affected by

41:58

this in the sense that you weren't like mother of

42:00

a victim of a school shooting

42:02

or of a mass shooting. To just suddenly

42:05

be, like, moved in the way that you just described.

42:07

And again, the audacity, a Heilemann. You

42:09

know, here we go. A million. I'm, you know, I'm

42:11

just gonna do this. And I'm not I'm really not

42:14

mocking. I find it like everything

42:16

about the way in which you undertook this

42:19

was sort of like It

42:21

was an invitation to naysayers who

42:24

would have said, you know what you're doing,

42:26

you're not qualified, you don't have the credentials,

42:28

you're not really connected to this. Who are you,

42:30

lady? What gives you

42:32

the right to do this? And it's

42:34

a waste of your time. This will never change

42:37

this is foolish or an amateur. There's

42:39

a million and not totally

42:41

unreasonable objections to you undertaking

42:43

this in the spirit that you undertook it. And your attitude

42:46

was and I know you won't but not say

42:48

this, but I would say this for you, which is like

42:50

fuck you. I care about this. I'm doing

42:52

this and I'm gonna do it my way and I'm gonna see what

42:54

happens. The Hutzpa of it, and and

42:56

I say Hutzpa in the most admiring way

42:58

possible. I don't know where did you

43:00

get I mean, it's the thing I most wanna

43:03

understand about you and some ways. It's like

43:05

where that came from because most

43:07

people would have been afraid. And your

43:09

attitude was to all of those objections

43:12

was Thank you very much. I'm doing this

43:14

anyway. I think it's a few things. So

43:16

first of all, there's something to be

43:18

said for naivete. I had no idea

43:21

what I was embarking on. None.

43:24

Right. And look if I had known

43:26

immediately, I would get death threats

43:28

and threats of sexual violence to me, to my

43:30

daughters that I'd have to travel with

43:32

a security guard and use an alias for

43:34

the next eight years. Would I have done

43:36

this? I'd like to say

43:39

yes, but I think there's some benefit

43:41

to have been very naive. The

43:43

other piece of it is I think it's just

43:45

part of my personality that you tell me I can't

43:48

do something. I will double down. It's

43:50

why I've been able to ignore

43:52

those kinds of I think and stay focused.

43:55

And I would say that the third thing

43:57

is that I had this outpouring of support

44:00

from Heilemann mostly women across

44:02

the country, perfect strangers who

44:05

said to me, I will help you.

44:08

I will bring the skill sets that you don't

44:10

have to the table, and we will get this done

44:12

together. And I just have

44:14

always felt that incredible

44:17

support and I talk about

44:19

this in my book where

44:21

every obstacle that existed

44:24

was removed. And I'll just give you an example.

44:26

In the early days, I can't

44:28

even tell you how many trolls would invade

44:30

our Facebook page. Right? The

44:32

families from Sandy Hook would be

44:35

so kind as to give us

44:38

private photos from their families to continue

44:40

to fight on this issue. And and at that time, it was

44:42

really to fight for Manchin Tumi. And

44:44

yet, trolls would say the most disgusting horrible

44:46

things. And if I would spent hours of

44:48

my day while I was trying to get this organization

44:51

off the ground banning and

44:53

blocking and deleting trolls in

44:55

their comments. And I can remember

44:57

I was laying on the floor of

45:00

my closet crying because I just didn't

45:02

know how I was gonna keep all this up. Plus, you know,

45:04

I had five kids. And I got this

45:06

call from a woman who said, I

45:08

am in Indianapolis, I'm disabled, I'm

45:10

home twenty four hours a day, I

45:13

noticed you have a lot of trolls on your

45:15

social media. If you give me your

45:17

passwords, I'll just spend my day blocking

45:19

and deleting them. AND THAT'S EXACTLY

45:21

WHAT SHE DID FOR YEARS

45:24

AND IT'S THINGS LIKE THAT THAT MADE THIS

45:26

POSSIBLE. THERE'S another thing that made

45:28

it possible. I I think you happen to

45:31

have been really lucky in terms of the timing.

45:33

Right? You know, if you had done the same thing,

45:36

three years earlier or three years later, you wouldn't even

45:38

have been too early or too late, but you happen to hit that

45:40

moment. You know, there was a critical mass

45:42

of people out there, a genuine silent majority.

45:44

Who were ready to be activated

45:47

by the right kind of movement with

45:49

the right kind of structure and the right kind of approach.

45:51

You know, I think the other thing is reading fight like

45:54

mother is the book. You've mentioned your book, and I'm gonna say it again

45:56

for those anybody who doesn't know what it's called fight like

45:58

a

45:58

mother, which is a great double edged wand.

46:01

You should buy the book just so you can have a book

46:03

that sells quite like a mother on their bookshelf. You

46:05

know, you're really in tune with a bunch

46:07

of things that are very again, as far as I know,

46:10

although you had some political background and

46:12

worked in things that touched on politics in

46:14

your life, you were not a grassroots

46:16

organizer or, you know, a community

46:18

organizer like Barack Obama by training. Right? But there's

46:20

a lot of the stuff that you've done that it's really in

46:23

tune with how you work

46:25

grassroots now in this world.

46:27

Right? And there were things you didn't necessarily know that much

46:29

about. As you said about social media, but the embrace

46:31

of social media, the embrace of

46:33

volunteerism, the kind

46:35

of understanding of how

46:39

numbers in a world

46:41

where we're constantly quantifying everything all the time

46:43

now and the way in which you went about

46:45

doing this was very much in sync with the

46:47

new kind of model for how to mobilize

46:50

change in this wired

46:52

up connected world that we have that

46:54

allows for a certain kind of social mobilization

46:56

and activism that wasn't really possible

46:59

you

46:59

know, not that long ago, these things would have been

47:01

fanciful and you happen to come along and just like

47:03

like the right moment. I always wonder

47:05

how mothers against drunk driving did it. Right?

47:08

Like, did they call each other on their rotary phones

47:10

and or send letters or or drive to each

47:12

other's homes? How did these

47:14

amazing people organize and get much

47:16

done in a decade. I I do think

47:19

social media has turbocharged what we

47:21

do. I mean, when we were going after

47:23

companies for their open carry policies, we

47:25

were able to get places like Chipotle to

47:28

change them in in just a weekend

47:30

using hashtags like burritos, not bullets.

47:33

We're able to put pressure on lawmakers

47:36

publicly online. We're able to ask people

47:38

to call and to send emails. Like we're

47:40

doing right now to defeat standard ground

47:42

in Ohio. Social media

47:45

has truly enabled what

47:47

I call naptivism. Right? So when

47:50

moms have that precious

47:52

amount of free time to be activists, they

47:55

can't send a tweet or an email or

47:57

a text make a call on their iPhone.

48:00

And really, the benefits

48:03

of this technology have never been more clear,

48:05

right? We were going into COVID and

48:08

just getting ready to hold what we advocacy

48:11

days. These are these major in person

48:13

essentially lobbying days, right, where we show up

48:15

at state house by the hundreds and

48:18

advocate for this issue. And so

48:20

we had more RSVPs in

48:22

Sacramento to show up for our advocacy

48:25

day in California than we'd ever had before and

48:27

just days before we had to pivot to do it

48:29

online. And we actually had

48:31

more people participate than

48:34

had RSVP. And

48:36

I think the lesson that that's taught us is

48:38

This technology allows us to be even

48:41

more inclusive, more

48:43

equitable. You can necessarily get from San

48:45

Diego Sacramento, but you sure can zoom in

48:47

during your lunch hour to have conversation with

48:49

your lawmaker. So I don't think we'll ever

48:51

go back to doing things the way we did before,

48:54

which was so focused on in person.

48:56

There there's this other element though, which is

48:59

in addition to social media, there's also

49:01

this obvious gender element

49:04

to this. Right? Which you're very focused on,

49:06

that that mothers women and

49:09

mothers to overlapping categories,

49:11

but not synonymous categories, obviously. That

49:13

that was the was where the the

49:15

kindling was in a way to to drive this

49:17

movement. And I think that's really the difference

49:20

it seems to me between this and mothers against drunk

49:22

driving, which is

49:23

heard you say at some point that our

49:26

gun laws are what's the phrase

49:28

that you used? Our our masculinity toxic

49:30

masculinity.

49:32

Right. So, you know, unlike

49:34

the situation with drunk driving where

49:36

mothers were affected because they had lost children

49:38

to drunk drivers that was not there

49:41

was not an innate, nothing

49:43

about the laws they wanted to change had. I don't

49:45

think the same kind of quality that

49:47

you're imputing to our gun laws that I think makes

49:49

sense, that notion that our gun laws reflect

49:52

toxic masculinity. And so

49:54

it's another thing that,

49:56

yes, there have been movements of mothers and movement

49:58

of women obviously throughout our our history

50:00

and politics and on the broader social

50:03

field of play, but the

50:06

idea that in the moment when

50:08

feminism and the intersection of feminism and

50:10

politics was getting a certain

50:12

kind of. There was a certain kind of intersectionality

50:15

that, like, guns would be an

50:17

obvious place where that could be powerful.

50:20

I should set it with those guns could be an

50:22

obvious place where it could be powerful. It was not it's

50:24

not obvious, I don't think. And I think it maybe

50:26

had been obvious to you but wouldn't necessarily

50:28

have been obvious to everybody else that the right kind of rocket

50:31

fuel for this movement was gonna end up being

50:33

mothers. And I don't think that would have been necessarily obvious

50:35

to everybody because I think you decoded certain

50:37

thing about the nature of our gun culture

50:39

and the nature of our gun laws that wasn't maybe a thousand

50:41

percent obvious to everybody who'd been working this issue

50:43

in the past. Hey, look, this

50:45

is a fascinating conversation

50:47

and and not without controversy. I

50:50

sure get a lot of blowback for using the word

50:53

moms and moms to me in action. If

50:55

you look at the history of activism

50:57

in this country, it is

51:00

often

51:00

women, at the front line, often

51:02

women of color, Yeah.

51:04

On the front line of this issue, if you go all the

51:06

way back to prohibition, right? It was really the first time

51:08

women were allowed to get involved

51:11

because men thought temperance was

51:13

a Christian value and never could put

51:15

that genie back in the bottle. Women

51:17

wanted to stay involved in activism and they

51:19

they have from suffrage to civil rights

51:22

a child. Labor laws, you know, all the way up to the water

51:24

crisis in Flint, Michigan. It's really been

51:27

women in many ways who have forced change.

51:29

And I think women are often the secret

51:32

sauce of activism. There's a

51:34

thing that goes, you can't beat someone who doesn't give

51:36

up. And when Our

51:39

children's safety and our community safety

51:42

is on the line. I don't

51:44

think women in particular moms will

51:46

give up. Now,

51:49

is it anachronistic to

51:52

sort of call on that? Perceived

51:56

cultural value of being a mom.

51:59

Sure. In a perfect world, women

52:01

would advocate just as being women, but

52:03

when you look at the fact that eighty percent of the lawmakers

52:05

are men in this country. Yeah. And

52:07

that women have certain levers of power they can Heilemann

52:10

that men are innately afraid of mother

52:12

figures. It

52:14

has been powerful, and it's why, you

52:16

know, everyone from the

52:19

president to to member of congress, to people

52:21

in their state houses call and

52:23

ask for dozens or hundreds

52:25

of our volunteers to wear their red

52:27

shirts at their events. That is why.

52:29

Because there is something intrinsic about

52:32

a mother fighting for

52:35

the safety of her family or community

52:38

that is powerful. Will that always

52:40

be the case in this country? I hope not.

52:43

I I hope we hold fifty percent of the positions

52:45

of power. But

52:47

you have to be pragmatic. And I think

52:49

we are nothing if not pragmatic as an

52:51

organization. I asked my friend and

52:53

fellow recount podcast host

52:55

Jennifer Palmarey, who, obviously,

52:58

the long career in Democratic politics,

53:00

who, again, works with us now here. It has

53:02

podcast with a recount call just something

53:04

about her. And I asked her what

53:06

I should ask you today, but I'm gonna

53:08

ask it and then I'm gonna append a

53:10

a sub question to it. Right? Her question was,

53:13

why do Americans love guns so much? And

53:15

my sub question, actually, just talk through

53:17

some of the gender dynamics involved is, is

53:19

that the right question? Does America

53:21

love guns so much? Or do America men love guns so

53:23

much. And I don't mean to suggest there aren't women who love guns.

53:25

There are women who love guns, own guns, shoot guns.

53:28

I know you have said before that your pro

53:30

secret amendment and you're not you know, you

53:32

you don't think that you're not anti second amendment.

53:34

So I'm I'm we're obviously generalizing here

53:37

when we talk on this level. So just to be

53:39

clear to everybody, we all know there are women

53:41

who loved up. Should guns

53:44

but there's the the two part question, which is

53:46

Pomerry's question, why does America love guns so much?

53:48

And then the secondary question, which is,

53:50

is it really America that loves guns so

53:52

much? Or is it really that American men

53:54

love guns? And that that is really

53:57

where the the cultural the attachment

53:59

to guns is a very male thing in

54:01

America. And It's absolutely true. And

54:03

if you look at gun sales, you

54:05

know, about ten percent of the the gun

54:07

sales in this country go to women. That

54:09

has gone up and down a little bit, but

54:11

stayed pretty much the same. So

54:14

this is certainly a male oriented

54:18

issue. When you look at the average gun

54:20

owner, it's a white man over

54:22

the age of fifty. It's important to

54:24

remember that about seventeen

54:28

percent of all gun owners own the

54:30

majority of the four hundred million guns in this country.

54:32

Right? So what the gun lobby has done is

54:34

convince

54:35

a small segment of the population

54:37

that they need to own in arsenal. Right.

54:40

And it's also really

54:42

important to remember that the NRA became

54:47

this powerful wealthy special

54:49

interest starting in the seventies. And

54:52

it's something no other high income

54:54

country has. Which is a

54:56

gun lobby that has been so involved

54:58

in writing gun laws and selling guns. I mean,

55:00

the number of guns in this country has tripled

55:03

since nineteen sixty eight. And

55:05

so part of it is

55:07

cultural, but a very large

55:09

part of it is also

55:11

political. And that is lays

55:13

solely on the the shoulders

55:15

of the ganlami. And I think that's a good

55:18

way to end this before we get a break,

55:20

which is you

55:22

know, the reality is that

55:24

when you look at at all the public opinion

55:26

pulling on these questions, you you have

55:29

ninety plus percent of democrats who are

55:31

in favor of gun safety legislation, various

55:33

kinds. There's different positions on various on

55:35

different proposals, but by and large democrats

55:38

overwhelmingly favor doing stuff either eliminate

55:40

loopholes or background checks or

55:42

try to do things through a legislative

55:45

and regulatory forum to try to make guns

55:47

more safe. And Republicans, it's

55:49

not like you flipped those things. It's not like ten percent of Republicans.

55:51

It's like roughly half of Republicans. Right?

55:54

So you've got a big majority for gun safety

55:56

in the country. And that is both, you

55:58

know, male and female. You don't get those kind

56:00

of numbers in the Democratic Party you're not talking about lot of men

56:02

as long as as well as a lot of women even though you've rightly

56:04

pointed out women have been driving the activism on

56:06

this. But, you know, it's not like a

56:09

a stark gender divide where women want

56:11

gun control and gun safety and men don't.

56:14

But it's an interesting thing just because,

56:16

to your point, which I think is, that

56:19

there's so many issues in American politics

56:22

where the way in which they

56:24

are prosecuted in our politics by

56:27

the organized, moneyed interests

56:29

that dominate the debate is

56:32

divorced from what the actual

56:34

public opinion of the country is on those

56:36

issues. And this, I could list

56:38

thirty issues like this, where it's just

56:40

not where the country is. We're having a

56:42

different argument in the legislative and

56:44

political arena, especially in Washington, which

56:46

is much more toxic and much more polarized and it

56:48

is actually in a lot of the places in the country. And,

56:51

you know, the reality is that guns are a tough

56:53

issue and and it's different from in different

56:55

places in the country. As I know you know, but

56:58

it is a place where there is much

57:00

more common ground on it than

57:03

our political debate has previously

57:05

suggested And think that's part

57:07

of what you've also kind of identified over the course

57:09

of doing this and part of why as we move into

57:11

our discussion of what's gonna happen in the

57:13

future, why there's kind of a a cause for degree

57:15

of optimism about where we're headed? Yeah,

57:18

I think it's inevitable. As you said, you have ninety

57:20

percent of Americans who support stronger gun laws,

57:22

eighty percent of gun owners right,

57:24

only about one in ten of whom

57:26

belong to the NRA. You

57:28

have seventy four percent of NRA

57:31

members. That's a Republican poll by

57:33

Franklin's. Support stronger

57:35

gun laws like a background check on every gun sale.

57:38

So this is inevitable. I

57:40

think what is so hard

57:42

about this issue is that time is of

57:44

the essence. Right? Over

57:46

forty thousand Americans are killed by

57:49

gun violence in this country every year. We know

57:51

that's going to go up. In the wake of COVID,

57:53

that historic number of gun sales we talked about

57:56

earlier, those will have

57:58

ramifications long after. Everyone

58:00

has been vaccinated for COVID. After this

58:02

crisis is over, the gun violence crisis

58:04

will just be the beginning. And so,

58:07

it it time is of the essence I

58:09

know that this is inevitable, but we really

58:11

do have to continue to put pressure on

58:14

lawmakers to

58:14

act. Alright. Let's take another

58:16

break and then we'll come back for the

58:19

last part of our discussion here today on Heilemann

58:21

high water with Shannon Watts.

58:28

Policism.

58:32

Black voices are making an impair this

58:35

month and

58:35

beyond. Keep listening to Discover

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58:44

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58:46

and the rent high. They are quick to line

58:48

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58:50

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58:54

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state senator and it's ugly and widespread.

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On emboss, we are working to

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59:35

Who sit in their Gildan House and Senate

59:37

seats funded by the NRA telling us nothing

59:40

could have ever been done to prevent this? We

59:42

call B. S. We

59:47

say that tough they say that tougher

59:49

gun laws do not decrease gun violence.

59:51

We call b s. They

59:54

say a good guy with a gun stops a bad

59:56

guy with a gun. We call

59:58

b s. They say guns

1:00:00

are just tools like knives and are

1:00:02

as dangerous as cars we

1:00:05

call meatballs. No.

1:00:08

This say that no laws could have been able to

1:00:10

prevent the hundreds of senseless tragedies

1:00:12

sort of occur. We call,

1:00:14

yes, that us kids

1:00:16

don't know what we're talking about that we're too

1:00:19

young to understand how the government

1:00:21

works. We call Yeah.

1:00:25

If you agree, or to vote, contact

1:00:27

your local congresspeople.

1:00:34

And that was Emma Gonzalez giving

1:00:37

a very famous speech

1:00:39

that she still high school student

1:00:41

gave at the March for our lives in

1:00:43

Washington, D. C. Shannon Watts.

1:00:46

The reason I wanted to play that clip, you

1:00:48

know, Emma Gonzalez was an accidental

1:00:51

activist and I know you have referred yourself

1:00:53

on more than one occasion as an accidental activist.

1:00:56

You know, you're not alone. A lot of the people who

1:00:58

end up being central figures in

1:01:00

the debate over gun safety turn out to

1:01:02

be accidental activists or at least unwilling

1:01:04

many cases unwilling activists

1:01:06

who have been dragged into this debate

1:01:09

in many cases because of profound tragedies

1:01:11

that have the fallen them or someone

1:01:13

close to them, their community,

1:01:16

their school, And in this case, these

1:01:18

kids who had been at Marjorie Heilemann Douglas

1:01:20

High School in Parkland, Florida, they

1:01:22

became big, big, and really important

1:01:24

and very eventual voices in the debate after the

1:01:26

mass shooting there. Emma Gonzalez captured

1:01:29

in that speech something really

1:01:31

important. First of all, you gotta love anybody

1:01:34

who stands up and calls BS. A

1:01:36

lot of what we do at the recount is called BS on

1:01:38

politicians, and it was great to hear Emma Gonzalez doing

1:01:40

it in that speech. But she was also kind of

1:01:42

using that speech as a as a call to mobilize

1:01:45

her peers to create change. You

1:01:47

know, we've talked, you know, on this podcast about

1:01:49

how essential women are to the

1:01:52

gun safety Heilemann. But it also

1:01:54

seems that kids are really important to

1:01:56

it, and they in some sense of the future of the Heilemann,

1:01:58

And one of the reasons why it could have legs

1:02:00

into the future, you know, we've talked about a number

1:02:03

of reasons for hope and optimism around this movement over

1:02:05

the course of our conversation today. You know,

1:02:07

we know that kids do not love politics,

1:02:09

but on issues that

1:02:11

they care about, they can be passionately and powerfully

1:02:13

engaged. Do you think about obviously, the environment is

1:02:15

a good example of that, but guns or

1:02:18

another. So I'd love for you to talk about

1:02:20

the role that you see young people having in

1:02:22

the movement for gun control and gun safety

1:02:24

and gun common sense in the future

1:02:26

of what you think the role of this

1:02:28

generation, this young generation will be moving

1:02:31

forward. You know, we had

1:02:33

a a pilot program called Student Demand

1:02:35

Action that existed in

1:02:38

two thousand eighteen. And

1:02:40

then after the parking tragedy, I

1:02:43

mean, it just took off.

1:02:45

And local

1:02:47

groups, just like mom's demand action, were formed

1:02:49

all over the country. And

1:02:51

I have been so impressed by their

1:02:53

activism. You know, they have over

1:02:56

four hundred local groups now student

1:02:58

student election is one of the largest student led

1:03:00

gun violence prevention organizations in the country.

1:03:04

During the COVID crisis, you know, they're they are

1:03:06

sitting at home with all this free time on

1:03:08

their hands, and and they've spent it

1:03:10

working as activists. I mean, they registered

1:03:12

over a hundred thousand new voters during

1:03:14

this election cycle. And

1:03:16

I think it's so important that they do activism

1:03:19

differently than my generation does.

1:03:22

They're much more savvy. They use different social

1:03:24

media platforms. It's

1:03:26

gonna be really important. We talked about mothers

1:03:28

against drunk driving. They still

1:03:30

exist. Even after

1:03:33

you win, you have to protect

1:03:35

those wins. And it's gonna be

1:03:37

up to this generation, which is aptly

1:03:39

referred to often as the lockdown generation.

1:03:42

Right? These kids who have to rehearse

1:03:44

their deaths in the bathroom of their

1:03:46

classroom as if that

1:03:48

piece of wood is going to protect them from the

1:03:50

spray of an AR fifteen. They're

1:03:52

angry. And they're right to be angry. And

1:03:54

I I believe strongly

1:03:57

that they will continue to

1:03:59

stay on top of this issue and that it will be

1:04:01

a priority for them and and we see

1:04:03

that in the polling.

1:04:05

So, you know, we're headed into this

1:04:08

new era. And by new era, I

1:04:10

I mean, the post Trump era, we don't know

1:04:12

what gonna happen to Donald Trump once he leaves

1:04:14

office on January twentieth, and we'll see what

1:04:16

role he plays in the future of our politics

1:04:18

and public life and the Republican Party.

1:04:21

But we are gonna have a new president, and I'm

1:04:23

curious what you think about our

1:04:25

president-elect. And the prospects

1:04:28

you know, he is a guy who I've known

1:04:30

for a very long time. There

1:04:32

genuinely is very little that he's done

1:04:34

in his long career in the United States Senate.

1:04:37

That he takes more personal pride in

1:04:39

than in having as

1:04:41

he would put in I beat the NRA.

1:04:43

Now the nineteen ninety four crime bill is a complicated

1:04:46

piece of legislation inflation. It's one that, you know,

1:04:48

is a great thing that Joe Biden feels

1:04:50

enormous pride for, but also that he's

1:04:52

taken a lot criticism for from the left for other reasons.

1:04:55

And it's an interesting thing, you know, when

1:04:57

you look at his policy, his platform,

1:04:59

his promises for what he's gonna do at office, he

1:05:01

says, you know, I will beat the NRA again. And

1:05:03

I take him at his word in the sense that I think he

1:05:05

sincerely honestly really thinks that that

1:05:07

is important to him and something he believes he can achieve.

1:05:10

I ask you whether having

1:05:12

been through what we talked about earlier, seen

1:05:14

how difficult it is to get anything done in the Congress

1:05:16

of the United States, but also taking into account some

1:05:19

of the change that we've discussed When you're

1:05:21

looking at twenty twenty one and beyond Joe Biden's

1:05:23

history, Joe Biden's commitment to

1:05:25

change playing field, both between

1:05:27

and within the parties, Are you

1:05:30

optimistic about the possibility of

1:05:32

congressional federal change in the

1:05:34

short

1:05:34

term? Or are you still kinda like this is the low

1:05:37

mansion to me all over again? You know, first of

1:05:39

all, the very last time I traveled for mom's

1:05:41

demand action was to Columbus, Ohio

1:05:43

where I stood next to Joe Biden with mom's

1:05:45

demand action volunteers and

1:05:48

he was talking about how

1:05:51

this was going to be his one

1:05:53

of his policy priorities as president.

1:05:55

And I truly believe that. I mean, if you look

1:05:57

at at the people, he's nominating so

1:05:59

far, I mean, Susan Rice, she'll

1:06:02

be instrumental. In combating gun

1:06:04

violence in this country in in her

1:06:06

role as the the director of domestic policy

1:06:08

council. And the bottom

1:06:11

line is, you know, Joe Biden and

1:06:13

Kamala Harris are the strongest

1:06:15

gun safety administration in history.

1:06:18

So I am very confident that

1:06:20

they will act. Now we don't know who what

1:06:22

the senate's gonna look like. That obviously plays

1:06:24

a big role in whether it will pass

1:06:27

legislation through Congress or or whether

1:06:30

we'll have to to rely on on

1:06:32

executive actions. But I absolutely believe

1:06:34

we will see action on this issue in the first

1:06:36

one hundred

1:06:37

days. What is it that makes you

1:06:39

think that the incoming Biden administration is

1:06:41

stronger in its commitment on this

1:06:43

issue than the I mean, we know what

1:06:45

the record of the Obama administration was on this

1:06:47

we we have a prospective Biden administration

1:06:49

that can't judge yet because it hasn't been in office. We

1:06:51

have an Obama administration that was in office for

1:06:53

eight years and effectively did not move the ball on gun

1:06:55

control in any meaningful way. So on one hand,

1:06:58

you could say, well, no matter what

1:07:00

they do. The the the record of the Obama administration

1:07:02

is not that strong, so it wouldn't take much for the Biden administration

1:07:04

to do more. But I don't think you doubt

1:07:06

president Obama's -- Yeah. -- but, you know, his

1:07:08

passion and his commitment on trying to

1:07:10

fix this. So what is it that makes you think

1:07:13

Joe Biden will be able to accomplish more than

1:07:15

Barack Obama

1:07:15

did. I think part of it is the the political

1:07:18

playing field. Right? Again, that we have moved

1:07:20

the needle on this issue, which gives elected

1:07:22

officials more freedom to act, the

1:07:25

expectation to act, as

1:07:27

you mentioned Joe Biden's history on his

1:07:29

issue in Congress, He

1:07:31

did establish or help establish the

1:07:33

modern day background check system. He

1:07:35

helped secure the passage of of the assault

1:07:37

weapons ban and high capacity magazine limits.

1:07:41

He really did lead the charge after the Sandy

1:07:43

Hook tragedy, which, you know, President Obama

1:07:46

has said it was one of his greatest regrets that he wasn't

1:07:48

able to get Congress to act. And

1:07:50

Pamela Harris has an incredibly strong

1:07:53

commitment to this issue as well. So, you know,

1:07:55

when you put that together and there's

1:07:58

no doubt they understand how the COVID crisis

1:08:00

is exacerbating the gun violence crisis. You

1:08:03

know, we're having those conversations And

1:08:05

we have put out an action plan

1:08:08

around executive actions that can

1:08:10

be taken on day one.

1:08:12

And we're very hopeful

1:08:15

and incompetent that we will see action on that and

1:08:17

look, I obviously hope that the senate

1:08:19

ends up with a a democratic

1:08:21

majority because they will act on this issue. But if

1:08:23

that doesn't happen, there's still so much that

1:08:26

can be done. And and and not just at a federal

1:08:28

level. Right? We talked about still

1:08:30

working in state houses and even hyper

1:08:32

local municipal work. All of it's

1:08:34

gonna matter offense and defense. And

1:08:37

again, you can't beat someone who doesn't give

1:08:39

up and mouse reduction volunteers won't.

1:08:42

We talked before about the waning power of

1:08:44

the

1:08:44

NRA and some of the dynamics that are in play

1:08:46

there. We said before that the NRA had not

1:08:48

had a great twenty twenty in a couple of the specific

1:08:50

things that happened in twenty twenty

1:08:52

one, you know, we have the head of the the

1:08:55

NRA, Wayne Lappier, who's being investigated

1:08:57

Court of the Wall Street Journalist is being investigated

1:08:59

by the IRS for tax fraud. And

1:09:01

we have the Leticia James lawsuit

1:09:03

in New York. You know, these are things that could be

1:09:06

mortal blows potentially to the NRA

1:09:08

that could kind of unfold relatively quickly

1:09:10

and could be very damaging to its ability

1:09:12

to continue to

1:09:13

function. Yeah, that's absolutely right.

1:09:15

We've always said from day one that our job

1:09:17

as volunteer for gun safety

1:09:20

is to shine a light under the refrigerator and

1:09:22

force the cockroaches to run out. And

1:09:25

that is what we have been doing at the NRA.

1:09:27

We have been involved in these lawsuits when

1:09:29

the NRA was

1:09:32

illegally selling insurance

1:09:35

that would protect people who

1:09:37

were allegedly shooting in self defense,

1:09:39

and it even includes psychological and

1:09:41

cleanup costs, this insurance policy. You

1:09:44

know, our volunteers and states filed lawsuits

1:09:46

against the NRA. We've been part

1:09:49

of different legal filings around

1:09:52

the NRA's behavior, we've certainly pointed

1:09:54

out their corruption over and over again,

1:09:57

and we will keep doing that. And we are very

1:09:59

grateful that state lawmakers

1:10:01

are taking notice in places where the NRA

1:10:04

has established themselves as an organization like

1:10:06

Washington DC and like New York.

1:10:09

And these lawmakers have the

1:10:11

ability to do everything

1:10:13

from remove the NRA's nonprofit

1:10:15

status to dismantling its

1:10:17

board. And we're starting to

1:10:19

see that have an

1:10:21

impact even on the inside. I mean, if you

1:10:23

look at NRA's reelection, which just

1:10:26

took place. It

1:10:28

was not unanimous by

1:10:31

media accounts. They were very clear

1:10:33

to say it was the last time. We

1:10:36

know there is a lot of in fighting. There are

1:10:38

people leaving the organization and telling

1:10:40

the stories of what went on. And

1:10:43

I think it'll be very interesting to

1:10:45

see if Wayne Lopez survives

1:10:47

in his role as the NRA's CEO

1:10:50

in the next year or so. But

1:10:52

the organization will

1:10:55

eventually have to come to the middle

1:10:57

or it will be extinct. And

1:11:00

I just think it's going to be really fascinating

1:11:03

to watch this play out. They

1:11:05

are on the ropes They're weaker than they've

1:11:07

ever been financially, even reputationally.

1:11:10

And the a rating they give out

1:11:12

is really a scarlet

1:11:14

letter. It's no longer a badge of honor.

1:11:16

When you think about the ominous

1:11:18

future for the NRA, there's

1:11:21

the brighter, more encouraging future

1:11:23

for mom's demand and and every Heilemann all

1:11:25

the organizations you're part of. saw you're a you're

1:11:27

a board member on this group called Emerge America,

1:11:29

right, which is about trying to

1:11:32

get women to run for office

1:11:34

basically and to an increase female participation

1:11:36

and women who are gonna run for public office and

1:11:38

helped them to win public office. And we talked a little

1:11:40

before about the success that mom's demand

1:11:43

volunteers have had increasingly, you know, making

1:11:45

that shift from activists to policymakers when

1:11:47

I think about your the organizations

1:11:49

you've been part of, but particularly the mob's demand

1:11:52

group, I think, like, what's the future

1:11:54

of mob's demand future mom's demand is Lucy McBath.

1:11:56

Right? That's, like, that is that she is kind

1:11:58

of state of the art mom's

1:12:00

demand volunteer. African American woman

1:12:03

from Georgia, a blue a red state

1:12:05

who runs, gets elected to Congress, makes transition

1:12:08

from activist to policy makers. She's kind of like

1:12:10

the shining exemplar of what your the

1:12:12

the next phase in where you want to

1:12:14

go. Right?

1:12:16

Lucy is such an

1:12:18

incredible force of nature

1:12:20

and such a hero to me, you know, I I

1:12:23

met Lucy in the spring of twenty thirteen.

1:12:25

Her son, Jordan Davis, was shot and

1:12:27

killed just seventeen by

1:12:30

a white man who said his music was too loud at

1:12:32

Florida gas station. He was killed just

1:12:34

weeks before the Sandy Hook school

1:12:36

shooting tragedy. And

1:12:39

maybe because her dad was a member of the

1:12:41

NAACP. He was actually an official

1:12:44

there and an activist. And maybe

1:12:46

that's where it came from, but she immediately

1:12:49

became an activist on this issue where

1:12:52

she lived in Georgia. Mhmm. And

1:12:55

I had a phone conversation and I said to

1:12:57

her, will you be a mom's demand

1:12:59

action spokeswoman? We were, like,

1:13:01

four months old. And didn't

1:13:03

have any money to give her. And I didn't

1:13:05

even know what that title meant. I just knew

1:13:07

that Lucy was such an important

1:13:10

voice. And she

1:13:12

said, yes. Our volunteers,

1:13:15

because of her trials in Florida, I mean, that's why

1:13:17

we have such an incredibly strong chapter in that

1:13:19

state she went through two trials. The first was in this

1:13:21

trial, the second, the killer was

1:13:23

convicted of murder. And

1:13:27

I can remember every conversation I would have with

1:13:29

Lucy. Eventually, she became an

1:13:31

employee at every town. And I would

1:13:33

end it by saying, so when are you going to run for

1:13:35

office? And I'll be honest,

1:13:37

I thought, okay, that she'll run for statehouse. But

1:13:40

she had much bigger and

1:13:42

and more accurate expectations. And

1:13:45

She called me after the Parkland tragedy and

1:13:47

said, I'm going to run for commerce. And

1:13:51

she ran for a seat that had been

1:13:53

held for thirty years by Republicans. It's

1:13:55

new Kingbridge's old seat in Georgia. Then

1:13:57

she won. She is. Then she

1:13:59

won. And I do think

1:14:01

it's such a a powerful

1:14:04

story about not just moms doing

1:14:06

action, but about using

1:14:09

your voice and what one

1:14:12

person can do in America by

1:14:15

being committed and refusing

1:14:18

to give up. I mean, that's Lucy in a nutshell,

1:14:20

you know, you also mentioned Lucy as

1:14:22

a black mom. And

1:14:25

when I got involved in this issue, it was

1:14:27

as a white suburban mom. Because

1:14:30

I was afraid my kids weren't safe in their schools.

1:14:33

Yep. And so many of the other women who helped

1:14:35

me start this organization were also white

1:14:37

suburban moms. Shame

1:14:39

on us for not realizing that a hundred

1:14:41

Americans are shot and killed every day and that

1:14:44

black women had been putting their

1:14:46

physical bodies on street corners to stop

1:14:48

bullets in their communities. It

1:14:50

took far too long. But

1:14:53

I also think there's an important role

1:14:56

that that we play because this

1:14:58

work shouldn't only be the

1:15:01

burden of black and

1:15:03

brown women whose children

1:15:06

are cut down by bullets in their communities. It has

1:15:08

to be on us too. And

1:15:10

I think that's such an important role for

1:15:12

white women in America as activists, which

1:15:15

is to be doing this work

1:15:18

because it does impact

1:15:21

your sisters all across the country. It

1:15:24

seems like Lucy in some ways

1:15:26

was an

1:15:28

exemplar in a lot of ways, but one of the things that she

1:15:30

did was kind of to help diversify your movement

1:15:32

in some Right? Lucy, it seems like has has

1:15:34

a powerful catalyst for change within

1:15:37

mom's demand in in addition to all of her other

1:15:39

accomplishments. I just find her just like an

1:15:41

insanely impressive insanely impressive

1:15:43

woman with an incredible story and who's

1:15:45

rapidly turning into a powerhouse

1:15:48

on Capitol Hill. She's gonna be incredibly interesting

1:15:50

career to watch going forward. And I wonder,

1:15:53

you know, as you watch her, I'm sure you've

1:15:55

been asked this a thousand times, but I'll ask

1:15:57

you, is there a future run for

1:15:59

public office and the future of Shannon Watts.

1:16:01

Either near term or long

1:16:03

term, is that something you want? Something

1:16:05

you'd contemplate, something you could never

1:16:07

tolerate. Howard Bauchner: Sure, I I think

1:16:09

about it. I have thought about it. I'm always

1:16:11

in encouraging other women to run

1:16:14

and it's something that brings me great

1:16:16

joy and satisfaction is

1:16:18

to help women in particular

1:16:21

run for office and win,

1:16:24

even if that takes several times. But

1:16:27

I I don't rule it out, and

1:16:30

I I don't know what the future holds.

1:16:32

You know, I think it's so important, you know,

1:16:34

we're talking about diversifying the And

1:16:37

I do think that it is important that

1:16:40

other women, black and brown

1:16:42

women, younger women, also

1:16:45

have a voice in this

1:16:47

organization, in this movement. And

1:16:50

another lesson I've learned is that that

1:16:53

work never ends. Right? We were doing a

1:16:55

really good job thanks to Lucy

1:16:57

and others help of

1:16:59

diversifying our policy

1:17:01

portfolio and also our organization internally

1:17:04

and externally. And then, you know, the Parkland

1:17:07

tragedy in two thousand eighteen happened, and

1:17:09

we almost tripled in size overnight

1:17:11

because so many Americans wanna get up the sidelines.

1:17:14

Yes. And what do those people look

1:17:16

like? Who came into the organization? They look like me?

1:17:19

And so that work started all over again.

1:17:21

Right? So that the work never ends. But

1:17:24

I guess that's a long way of saying, you know,

1:17:26

I I won't do this work forever and what's

1:17:28

next it runs the gamut of

1:17:31

running for August to starting a shade

1:17:32

garden. I'm just not sure. Should

1:17:36

you say starting a shade garden? I

1:17:39

don't even know what that is. What's the shade going on? You

1:17:42

you don't have any sun in your yard, so you

1:17:44

start a garden that will grow in the shade. Okay.

1:17:47

Sounds like a rock garden to me. Alright.

1:17:50

Let me ask you one last question and then I'll let you go.

1:17:53

If you were queen, if I were queen, if

1:17:55

you had the ability, like, fiat. I know what

1:17:57

your legislative priorities are at mom's demand,

1:17:59

but I I'm curious if, like, if I give you fiat

1:18:01

and you could do three things that

1:18:03

would most directly,

1:18:06

tangibly, and immediately

1:18:08

affect this issue that you care so much about

1:18:10

what would those three things be if you were queen?

1:18:12

First, I would pass the legislation we were talking

1:18:14

about before at a federal level, background checks,

1:18:16

red flag laws, disarming domestic abusers,

1:18:19

closing loopholes that allow easy gun sales

1:18:22

to people who shouldn't have them. The

1:18:24

second thing I would do is to fund

1:18:26

city gun violence intervention programs.

1:18:28

They're so desperately needed. Our

1:18:30

volunteers work all across the country to

1:18:33

unlock that kind of funding at a municipal

1:18:35

and at state level, but we need

1:18:37

those programs now more than ever.

1:18:40

And the third thing I would say is that

1:18:43

we would require secure gun

1:18:45

storage. We've talked a lot about drug

1:18:47

driving. If you go back to the eighties and someone

1:18:50

would drive drunk and kill their family, people

1:18:52

would say, a horrible tragedy that

1:18:54

that person has suffered enough, we can't punish them.

1:18:56

And then mothers against drunk driving came along

1:18:58

and wait a minute, you know, laws are the moral underpinning

1:19:00

of society. We have to change this. Or this will

1:19:02

keep happening. Flash forward to twenty

1:19:04

twenty, it's the same thing with guns. If I leave a loaded

1:19:06

gun on the counter and my kid or someone

1:19:09

else gets it, you know, it's misdemeanor

1:19:11

and a four hundred dollars fine if there's a death

1:19:13

or injury. And we've got to talk

1:19:15

more about secure storage. We've got to ask the

1:19:17

question when we send our kids to playdates

1:19:19

and families homes. And when you

1:19:21

look at school shooters in this country, most school

1:19:23

shooters are students, and they have easy acts

1:19:26

systems in their homes. So secure storage, I think,

1:19:28

would be the third

1:19:28

thing. It seems like all

1:19:30

of those things that they were to come about, they would all

1:19:32

be things that would be have a manifestly

1:19:35

positive impact. And none of them

1:19:37

seem that wildly fantastical. I thought

1:19:39

at least one of these would be like a

1:19:41

more fanciful notion, but those are all pretty practical,

1:19:44

pragmatic, and and should be achievable.

1:19:46

Maybe we'll get lucky, maybe after this

1:19:48

after twenty twenty, this horrific as

1:19:51

we exit this horrific shit show of

1:19:53

a year and we head towards this brighter, more

1:19:55

optimistic future that you've been sketching out today, maybe

1:19:57

all three of those things you just named will not be

1:19:59

like sort of

1:19:59

fantasies, they'll just become common

1:20:02

sense and we'll get them done.

1:20:03

They will in state houses. We just need

1:20:05

the federal government to do it. Shannon

1:20:08

Watts. Thank you. Thank you. Helen

1:20:11

High Water is a podcast from the recount and iHeartRadio.

1:20:13

Thanks again Shannon much for being here.

1:20:15

If you like this episode of Helen High Water, please

1:20:18

subscribe to the podcast and leave a nice

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1:20:24

I am your host and the executive editor of the recount,

1:20:26

John Heilemann. Grace Weinstein is a cocreator

1:20:28

of High Water. Aliyah Jackson engineered

1:20:31

the podcast Justin Chirmel, handled

1:20:33

the research, Stephanie Stender is our

1:20:35

post producer, Sarai Software is our producer,

1:20:38

and Christian Fiedel Castro Rossil,

1:20:40

is our executive producer.