Episode Transcript
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0:00
Hi,
0:08
I'm Chelsea Clinton, and this season on in fact,
0:10
we're celebrating Women's History Month, and
0:12
since the month is never enough, we're keeping
0:15
going a little longer. I'm talking with trailblazing
0:17
women at the top of their fields about their personal
0:19
journeys, the progress women have made,
0:21
and how far we still have to go. Today,
0:24
I am so excited to be talking about books
0:26
in the publishing industry with one of my all time
0:28
favorite authors, Jacqueline Woodson. We
0:31
know that the stories we share with our kids influence
0:33
how they see themselves in their place in this world,
0:36
and yet studies consistently show
0:38
that the majority of main characters in American
0:41
children's stories are male and white. In
0:44
fact, in one
0:46
study found that there were more animal and non
0:48
human characters than non white characters
0:50
and books published that year, and from
0:54
the percentage of children's books written about
0:57
racially diverse characters or subjects grew
0:59
by only one percent. Jacqueline
1:01
has written more than thirty books for children
1:03
and young adults, complex beautiful
1:06
stories that usually center around girls,
1:08
women, and people of color. One of my
1:10
personal favorites is the middle grade novel
1:12
Harbor Me, and it a group of six
1:14
kids get together after school each week
1:16
and what they call the Art Room.
1:19
That's a r T T for a
1:21
room to talk with no adults
1:23
present. They share their feelings
1:25
and open up about the very serious challenges
1:28
they in their family space. Jacqueline
1:30
has written two books for adults, another
1:33
Brooklyn and Read at the Bone,
1:35
but she may be best known for her middle grade
1:37
memoir Inverse Brown Girl
1:39
Dreaming won multiple awards,
1:42
including the National Book
1:44
Award for Young People's Literature, and
1:47
for years it's been a staple in classrooms
1:49
across the country, though as
1:51
you'll hear later, recently there have been
1:53
districts trying to ban it, and it's
1:56
not the only one. It
1:58
would take a very, very
2:00
long time to list all the awards and honors
2:02
Jacqueline has received, but some of
2:04
the highlights include serving as the Poetry
2:07
Foundations young People's Poet Laureate from
2:10
seventeen, being named Ambassador
2:12
for Young People's Literature by the Library of Congress
2:14
of receiving a MacArthur
2:18
Genius Fellowship, and the Hans
2:21
Christian Anderson Award, which is the
2:23
highest international recognition given to authors
2:26
and illustrators of children's books. Jacqueline,
2:34
thank you so much for being here today,
2:37
and as someone who first came
2:39
to know you through your books
2:41
for young readers, I would love to know
2:44
first what you read growing up.
2:46
What were your favorite things to read when
2:48
you were a kid. It's so good
2:51
to see you and talk to you, Chelsea. I
2:53
love these kind of connections. I love talking about
2:55
literature. I love talking about when so
2:59
and when I think back, it's
3:01
so interesting because I see my
3:04
reading is being really limited.
3:07
And I wonder if
3:09
we talked to my older sister, who read
3:12
all the time, if she would have the same
3:14
narrative. She loved books
3:16
like A Silver Skate and Harry
3:19
the Spy and All of a Kind
3:21
Family and all of these books that I
3:23
was not interested in, and I didn't
3:26
know why I was not interested in them,
3:28
even though I love are you there, God, It's me Margaret.
3:30
That's one book I read over and over
3:32
again, and then anything else. Judy Bloom came
3:34
along with But I really
3:36
found myself inside
3:39
books like Eloise Greenfield.
3:41
She come bringing That Baby Girl, which is this
3:43
great book that's written in
3:45
a dialect I understood
3:47
and in a way that I saw myself
3:50
and my people inside of it. And so I
3:52
was constantly looking for those books.
3:54
I remember reading The Bluest Eye
3:56
when I was like in fifth grade, because I read
3:59
The bluest Ian it's great, yeah, and
4:01
here's the crazy thing. So I read it
4:03
in fifth grade, and my memory of it was that
4:05
in the end of the book, Cola Bad Love
4:07
was this black girl who wants blue eyes so
4:09
that she can be accepted in the world, like Shirley
4:12
Temple. I mean, it's such a tragic story.
4:15
My memory of it was that she
4:17
got blue eyes and lived happily ever
4:19
after. And then
4:21
I read it again as an adult in high
4:23
school, and I was like, oh, Tony Morrison changed
4:26
the ending, and then I thought, no, there
4:28
was a children's version and the adult version,
4:30
and this must have been the children's version that I read
4:32
in fifth grade. And I think it was my sister who was
4:35
like, there are not two versions of that book,
4:39
kids compartmentalized. So those
4:42
are the books I remember, and I just remember reading
4:44
the same books over and over. Hans Christian
4:46
Andersen, anything that he wrote,
4:48
but especially The Little match Girl was
4:50
a book that I was fascinated
4:53
by. Clearly, some of the books
4:55
she read made a huge impact on
4:57
you, not only when you were a kid, But even
5:00
through to today it sounds like definitely,
5:03
I think the message that got hammered in
5:05
my head was that I wasn't a quote great
5:07
reader. And I get nervous because
5:09
I see it happening with young people today. You
5:11
are supposed to read fast, you're supposed to consume
5:14
lots of literature. You're supposed to read
5:17
above quote unquote your grade level.
5:19
And there were all these rules to reading
5:22
that were inside a box I
5:24
was not ascribing to. For me, it
5:26
was about being in the dream
5:28
of the narrative, just getting caught up
5:31
in the story and being swept away
5:33
by it, and then wanting to have that experience
5:35
again and again. And so that's how
5:37
I read. I read the same books over and over. And
5:40
when you were little reading the same
5:43
books over and over, did you ever think, oh,
5:45
Wow, I want to write a book that maybe
5:48
some other child in the future will want to read
5:50
over and over. Yeah, I've known I wanted
5:52
to be a writer since I was seven, since
5:54
you were seven. That's such a specific answer.
5:57
What happened at seven? Two things happened.
5:59
I learned how to write my name, I learned
6:01
how to write Jacqueline, and I learned that
6:04
writing that name put
6:06
it in the world. There was such a power
6:09
to the fact that you put letters together and
6:11
they make words, and that's all there
6:13
was to it. And so I made that connection between
6:15
the books I was reading and this new
6:17
power I had of writing
6:20
my name. And then I was always
6:22
telling stories. I was always getting in trouble for lying.
6:24
But when I wrote my name in that way,
6:26
Jacqueline Amanda Woodson, I was like, I want
6:28
to be a writer. And every
6:30
time I read a book, like when I read Hans Christian
6:33
Anderson, when I read The Little match Girl, all
6:35
I could think of was I want to do
6:37
that. I want to make someone else
6:39
feel that way, or I want to make myself feel
6:41
that way again. So how am I going to do
6:44
that through story? And did you
6:46
know any writers when you were growing up? Did
6:48
you know people who were kind of taking
6:50
things out of their heads or even
6:52
observing the world around them and then putting
6:55
that into words. I
6:57
did not. It was a different time.
6:59
You know. My mom wrote poetry for a long
7:01
time as a young person, and when
7:04
she was in high school she wrote
7:06
the poem that opened their high school
7:08
yearbook. And a very famous man who
7:10
we all know whose name I won't
7:13
say on air, actually put his name
7:15
on the poem. This person
7:17
was the editor of the yearbook, and he just signed
7:19
his name to the poem. And it
7:22
broke my mother's heart, Like you
7:24
know, I think for her for so long she
7:27
would see that poem where I still have the yearbook,
7:29
and she would say, you know, that was mine. I wrote
7:31
that poem. And so I wonder what
7:33
it would have meant for her to have that poem
7:36
in the world in a certain way, because at
7:38
one point she loved poetry. At one point she
7:40
was writing it and feeling brave enough
7:42
to put it into the world, and then that was
7:44
erased by the theft of it. So
7:48
so I would say that I'm genetically
7:50
connected to writers, but it wasn't at
7:52
a point where we had author visits or
7:55
anything. And so at seven, you
7:57
decide you want to be a writer. Did
7:59
you even know then that you would
8:01
write for as many different
8:03
audiences and as many different age
8:06
groups or did that come later? I
8:08
would say it came later. I knew I wanted
8:11
to write, and I didn't think that
8:13
there was just one group
8:15
of people to write for. And I still
8:17
don't believe that. I think all books were for everyone.
8:20
I mean, when you look at my experience with The Bluest
8:22
Eye and reading it as a fifth grader, it
8:24
didn't destroy me. It made me
8:27
have a whole other narrative about that story.
8:29
And there are lots of people who would say, well,
8:31
that book is not for kids, and It's like, yeah,
8:34
it's for kids who want to read it and
8:36
get something out of it. So I always
8:38
thought about writing that way. I didn't think I'm going
8:40
to write picture books for little kids,
8:42
are grown up books for
8:44
adults. I didn't know that those
8:47
worlds were so heavily
8:49
defined, but I knew that I wanted
8:51
to tell stories, and I wanted those stories
8:53
to land with people. And
8:56
so as you now think about
8:58
the thirty plus books you've
9:00
written for everyone knows some
9:02
more oriented towards kids or teenagers
9:05
or adults. Are there
9:08
certain themes that have
9:10
been important to you to
9:12
tackle or highlight in different
9:14
books over time? Or has
9:17
each book had its own identity,
9:19
its own story, its own logic. Definitely
9:23
both, you though, I
9:25
think the journey to the
9:28
End, which has often been about
9:30
acceptance, about freedom, about letting
9:33
people have their lives, about seeing
9:35
people as their whole selves
9:38
has transitioned through every single book
9:40
I've written. I think there's a strong social
9:42
justice element to the narratives,
9:44
and the characters are always very different
9:47
and the situations by which they get
9:49
to that we all have a right to
9:51
walk through the world safely. Moment it's
9:53
varied from book to book, will
9:59
be right back stay with us. You
10:10
mentioned your mom wrote poetry, and
10:12
poetry also plays an important role
10:14
in your books, including your memoir Brown
10:16
Girl Dreaming, which is written entirely in
10:19
verse. Was it
10:21
because of your mom that you were drawn to poetry
10:23
or do you find it's sometimes
10:26
just inevitable for what the story needs.
10:29
Part of it is because when I was a young person, I was
10:31
very afraid of poetry. I
10:33
thought it was this secret language
10:35
that only dead white men understood,
10:38
basically, And it wasn't until I
10:40
was made aware of the works of like
10:42
Langsa Hughes and Nikki Giovanni's
10:44
poetry. I first heard her reciting
10:46
on an album, on a record album that my mom
10:49
had. I didn't make that connection that
10:51
was poetry because I was like, what is this? This
10:53
is going straight to my heart? And so
10:55
when I started writing, I knew that the
10:58
way things sounded was important. The way
11:00
things looked on the page was important.
11:02
The way a line ended was important.
11:05
And I learned that was poetry. I love
11:07
that, and everything I write I read
11:09
out loud, so that makes a difference too,
11:11
and how it sounds. So I've thought about
11:14
your book harbor Me
11:16
quite a lot in the last couple of weeks, because
11:18
just looking at the crisis
11:21
in Ukraine and that there are close
11:23
to three million refugees, and in harbor
11:25
Me, it's a group of kids who are
11:28
aware of often issues that we
11:30
think aren't appropriate
11:32
for kids to learn about or to think
11:34
about, and yet issues that affect so
11:37
many kids in this country or
11:40
around the world, whether issues
11:42
relating to incarceration
11:44
or the fear of having to leave your
11:46
home. And so I just wonder,
11:49
Jacqueline, what stories
11:52
do you hear from people who have read that book
11:54
or any of your books, where readers say
11:56
to you, this really hit
11:59
me in this or this really affected
12:01
me so many
12:05
you know. I think the thing that
12:07
happened with harbor Me is
12:09
I was talking to young people and
12:11
then the pandemic came, and
12:13
then I started getting letters from young people
12:16
who would say, you know, this is
12:18
my life I am Holly,
12:20
I am Haley, I am Amori. So
12:23
Harbor Me was like both heartbreaking
12:25
and healing because I heard
12:27
so many stories of so many kids,
12:30
across lines of race, across lines of
12:32
economic class, the stories of their
12:34
fear and their heartbreak and the places
12:37
in which they felt trapped inside their
12:39
own skin. And one of those stories,
12:41
and Harbor Me, is about a white boy who moves
12:43
into a predominantly black neighborhood and
12:45
what that means for him to suddenly
12:48
be other other by no fault
12:50
of his own. He's walking home and he's getting
12:53
his next laughter. He's keeping this a secret,
12:55
right that there's this download bullying going
12:57
on, and then the way the
12:59
kid rally around him and say,
13:02
we will not let this happen anymore. And I
13:04
think that's another story that kids talk
13:06
about, is like, that's unfair, that shouldn't
13:08
happen. Why, you know, why would they do that?
13:11
And I remember going to a school
13:13
this was with visiting day, and visiting
13:15
day is the story of a girl whose dad
13:18
is incarcerated, and a teacher said, well,
13:21
we don't need to read this book because no one in
13:23
this class has any one in
13:25
prison. And of course that made me mad,
13:27
and I'm like, I'm going to read that book. And
13:30
then when I read it,
13:32
one kid raised his hand, He's like, my dad's in prison.
13:34
Another kid raised his hand, he's like, my cousins
13:37
in prison, my brother's in prison. And there were
13:39
about six kids who knew someone
13:41
who was incarcerated. And the teacher
13:44
said, I never knew that, and I said,
13:46
because you never opened this door
13:48
for them. And we had this beautiful
13:51
conversation where these kids have been living
13:53
with the shame of it. And I think of that often,
13:55
how we as adults, we too
13:58
often get to decide what the tone
14:01
is in the room, what that tone
14:03
is going to be, and what kids are going
14:05
to feel safe talking about, and harbor
14:07
me became this
14:10
huge conversation among all these
14:12
kids talking about which character
14:15
fit their own particular narrative,
14:17
and it was so great to see
14:19
that, and teachers talking about, Okay, we're gonna have an
14:21
art room. Now, you know, we're going to have a space where
14:24
adults give kids the space
14:26
to talk. And it doesn't even mean having
14:28
to leave the room, but being
14:30
comfortable in our own silence. I find,
14:32
even with my own kids, if I sit
14:35
very quietly, I hear things I won't hear
14:37
if I'm actually talking, or if
14:40
they are aware of my presence in the room
14:42
and just being able to be
14:44
in that space where young people
14:47
are talking about all of these seemingly
14:49
very quote unquote adult issues and
14:51
it's like, no, these are there every
14:54
day. I do want to ask about Brown
14:56
Girl Dreaming, since it is autobiographical
14:59
and so much your work is wonderfully
15:01
in the world of fiction, but how and why did
15:03
you decide to share
15:06
your own story. I was trying
15:08
to figure out how I got
15:10
to this point of being Jacqueline
15:12
Woodson. I had grown up Jackie, the
15:15
regular girl on the block, you know, one
15:17
of four children, and I wanted
15:19
to go back to the beginning.
15:22
And I was falling apart through the
15:24
three years of writing that. And it's so funny because
15:26
I would just write pieces and I'm like, this
15:28
is not making sense. Why isn't it coming out as
15:30
chapters? Why does this even matter? It
15:32
felt so deeply specific, and
15:35
um, you know, my beloved partner was like,
15:37
just keep writing. And then I say, like, what was your
15:39
partner and your family friends, what were they saying
15:42
on this journey? They were like, oh,
15:44
Jackie's falling apart again. She must be
15:46
writing another book. Jackie's cranky
15:48
again, she must have had a bad writing day, like the
15:51
same thing they've been saying for twenty years.
15:53
But I remember going to my friend Toshi
15:55
Reagan. She had read a bunch
15:57
of these little pieces, and I said, why am
16:00
not even trying to write this? Nothing was happening
16:02
when I was born, like this does not matter,
16:04
and she's like, what are you talking about?
16:06
This country was on fire when you were
16:08
born, And it completely
16:10
unlocked it to that first poem,
16:13
I am born on a Tuesday, February
16:15
twelfth, nineties sixty three, and
16:17
it really began to make sense
16:19
why I was telling this story. And
16:22
I really started thinking, I'm going
16:24
to tell this story in the context of American
16:27
history, because none of us are existing
16:29
outside the context of our country's
16:31
history. And then I thought I was going to talk
16:34
about my life and my mom and all this.
16:36
And in the middle of writing it, my mom died suddenly
16:38
at sixty eight, and suddenly that
16:40
door closed, and I was like, wait a second. I
16:43
had questions, there were things I wanted to ask
16:45
you. And then the
16:47
memoir changed and it became about myself
16:50
in the context of my mother right, because we're
16:52
on these journeys, because of the journeys our
16:54
parents were on, because of the journeys their parents
16:56
were on, and all the way back in time. And
16:59
that when all of it started making
17:02
sense, and all of it started having this
17:04
other history to it.
17:07
And when I finally got the
17:09
book finished, my beloved editor,
17:11
Nancy Paulson, just had her hand on my
17:13
back. The whole time, I was still saying, no
17:15
one is going to read this, and so
17:17
I was stunned. I still am stunned
17:20
by the journey that book has had. I've
17:22
talked to book clubs where the brown
17:24
girls are all Indian, you
17:26
know, are all Southeast
17:28
Asian, are all Asian, and
17:31
to realize that so many people who
17:33
see themselves as non white saw
17:35
themselves in this book. But what
17:37
really surprised me where all the white boys
17:40
who came to me, who wrote to me, it's
17:42
like, I love this book. I loved your grandfather,
17:45
or I wonder what happened to your brother, Like
17:47
everybody seemed to find some part
17:49
of themselves in this book. And then I get
17:51
these letters from white men in their seventies
17:54
who knew my grandfather, who knew hope,
17:56
and they're like, he taught me baseball. Your
17:58
grandfather was the nice man in Nelsonville,
18:01
and that blows me away.
18:03
So just being able to get these pieces
18:05
of my history given back to me because
18:07
of this memoirs is
18:09
such a gift. Oh my gosh. Well
18:11
and also, Jacqueline, that you wrote something that
18:14
feels both specific
18:16
and universal. It sounds like to the people who are reading
18:19
it. And yet we are living in a
18:21
time when there are forces
18:24
trying to limit what especially
18:26
kids can read, trying to take
18:28
books out of school or public
18:31
libraries, out of curricula,
18:34
especially for elementary
18:36
and middle school aged kids.
18:39
And I know your work has shown up on some
18:41
of those lists, and wonder
18:43
both kind of what that feels
18:46
like for you and also just
18:48
what advice you would have for anyone who
18:51
might be getting discouraged
18:53
by the velocity
18:56
of those efforts around the country. It's
18:58
exhausting. Most recently, Brown
19:00
Girl Dreaming ended up on the list. People
19:02
are challenging it because they said,
19:05
basically, there are no white folks in it, and it's going to
19:07
make white children feel bad, as opposed
19:10
to thinking about it as an
19:12
expansion of an experience
19:14
for people like the way that people
19:17
are trying to use literature to make
19:19
the world smaller is
19:22
heartbreaking, and for me as a writer,
19:24
it's exhausting more so than scary.
19:27
It's like, really, we have to have this
19:29
fight again. And now this fight is
19:31
different though, because it's trying to be legislated,
19:34
and it is in some places. So
19:36
I think the thing that we have
19:38
to be so aware of is that
19:41
we have power to create change
19:43
in this situation. We have power to
19:45
go to our if we don't go to our school
19:47
boards, go to our school buildings and
19:50
talk to the principle and write letters
19:52
in supportive librarians because they
19:54
are on the front lines of this. They're
19:56
the ones who are getting challenged just
19:59
for what's in their school libraries, and teachers
20:01
are getting challenge for which books they are sharing
20:03
with their young people, and we really
20:05
need our voices now, um And
20:07
I wish the press would support those people who
20:09
are challenging and winning against
20:12
these bands, because that's happening too,
20:14
and that does tend to give us a fire
20:17
right. It's like, well, if they could do this in Indiana,
20:19
we can do it in Brooklyn. But I think
20:21
we really have to be aware because it's
20:23
going to change what our kids
20:26
have access to. And as
20:28
parents, we want our kids to be as broad minded
20:30
as possible and to have as many experiences
20:33
as possible. And for many kids,
20:35
those experiences happened through literature,
20:38
and so if the literature is taken away, so
20:40
much is at state with these bands,
20:42
and I just think we really have to be aware
20:45
and be willing to write
20:47
those letters and go to those spaces
20:49
and make that change. I probably
20:52
not surprisingly emphatically agree.
20:54
I also think, especially for those of us
20:56
who have young children for whom
20:58
the pandemic has been a huge
21:01
portion of their lives, in which their lives
21:03
were rendered quite small, it's even
21:05
more important that there
21:08
are pathways and portals
21:10
into other people's experiences and to
21:12
other communities experiences.
21:14
Oh man, it is so true. I
21:16
always think about Dr Rudin since Bishop
21:19
hot talks about the importance of kids having both
21:21
mirrors and windows in their literature,
21:24
mirrors so they could see reflections of themselves,
21:26
and windows so that they can see into other
21:28
worlds. And You're so right, this is
21:30
the opportunity for them to see
21:32
into those other world We're
21:37
taking a quick break to stay with us
21:50
thinking about the need for
21:52
windows and mirrors. We know that most
21:55
of children's literature has been written
21:57
by white people, and most of children's
21:59
literature has been written by men,
22:02
and most of children's literature has actually been
22:04
told from a male or a boy's
22:06
point of view, including
22:09
which I have never understood, Jacqueline.
22:11
So many of the classic books about
22:14
animals, and you're like, why do the frogs
22:16
and the toads need to be gendered male?
22:18
Or the ducks or the cows.
22:20
And while certainly there are
22:23
more women authors,
22:25
there are more authors of
22:27
color, there are more women authors of color,
22:30
were still up against accumulative
22:32
history that is overwhelmingly
22:35
white and overwhelmingly male.
22:38
Do you think the publishing industry
22:40
is doing enough to help ensure
22:42
that there are more voices given
22:45
a platform, given an opportunity,
22:48
And if not, what more do you think needs
22:50
to happen? And what could anyone listening
22:54
do to try to help hasten the arrival
22:56
of real representation? Is
22:59
so much to do, And one
23:01
thing about publishing is
23:04
it's a business, and publishers
23:06
look at numbers and they
23:09
make assumptions. Sometimes based on those
23:11
numbers, Organizations
23:13
like we Need Diverse Books have been doing
23:15
the work to really change
23:18
what's happening in publishing and get
23:20
more books by folks published, and
23:22
then publishers get nervous that those books
23:24
aren't going to sell, even though I remember looking at
23:26
the bestseller list at one point and there were like
23:29
eight people of color on it. At
23:31
the same time, as parents,
23:34
as teachers, it's really
23:36
important to get the books.
23:38
And that doesn't mean to buy them. It makes
23:40
a difference if you go to your library and take
23:43
that book out. Publishers are gonna look
23:45
at that. Publishers need to get out
23:47
of their own way and understand
23:49
that there's this community of young authors
23:52
out there who just need a chance to get
23:54
their story told and have platforms
23:56
and will do their part to help get the book
23:58
into the world. But it's changing
24:00
slowly. I first published in the nineties
24:03
and I was one of very few as that with Walter
24:05
B. Myers and Virginia Hamilton's and them kissics,
24:07
but you can name them, I can name them. We
24:10
were all friends. But that that highlights,
24:12
like, I'm so grateful you had that community,
24:14
Jacqueline, and also highlights the challenge
24:17
that, like you knew everyone's
24:19
name it was and the rooms were
24:21
very white, and the awards ceremonies
24:24
were very white. So I do think the
24:26
support of writers
24:28
and their stories makes a huge difference
24:31
to publishers the demand for more
24:33
books Like that, I always say, what is your
24:35
child's library look like? When I was looking
24:37
for schools for my children, the first
24:39
thing I looked at was the classroom library
24:42
because that told me a lot about the teacher's choices.
24:44
That told me a lot about what the
24:47
tone of the classroom was going to be and
24:49
what the narrative of the classroom was going to be. And
24:51
I talked to the teachers and librarians, and I talked
24:53
about diversity. And some people are
24:55
comfortable with diversity being one or
24:57
two people. I'm not. I don't
25:00
think that's diversity wanted two people of color.
25:02
So I think when we're talking about
25:04
publishing and creating change, we're
25:06
not only also talking about the
25:08
number of books they're publishing, but who is
25:11
in the publishing health doing the
25:13
work. How many editors of color, how many publishers,
25:15
how many publicity people of color. There's so
25:17
many levels of it, and there's
25:19
still so much work to do. But again,
25:22
we have that power to make that change
25:25
by using our voices, by using our
25:27
wallets, by using our library cards to
25:29
demand that change. I'm
25:31
so curious Jacquling, what questions
25:34
do young writers, especially young
25:36
women writers, ask you, and
25:39
what advice do you give a lot of
25:41
times they ask how
25:43
do I get published? And I say,
25:45
don't worry about that now, because they're like
25:47
ten, and I don't.
25:51
That's the age to be worrying about the publishing
25:53
industry. That's the time to be telling
25:56
your stories. And I say, write
25:58
the stories that really mad or to you, and
26:00
show them to the people you trust
26:03
and who make you feel safe and who make
26:05
you want to keep writing. Do not
26:07
show them to the people who are going to destroy
26:10
them. There's constructive criticism and there's
26:12
destructive criticism. And I tell
26:14
them what Dorothy Allison told
26:16
me years and years decades ago,
26:19
that everybody has a story, and everybody
26:21
has a right to tell that story. So
26:23
don't let anyone silence your story
26:26
because the world is waiting for it. And I do believe
26:28
that about young writers. I mean, I think, can
26:30
you imagine the stories these
26:32
young people are gonna tell. It's gonna
26:34
be amazing, you know, I am
26:37
so ready for it. I think they have so
26:40
much grit, so many survival skills,
26:42
They've learned so much, they're so smart,
26:44
it's going to be phenomenal.
26:46
So I am just always effusive
26:49
when young people ask me about anything but
26:51
publishing, because I'm like, let's get these stories
26:54
on the page. And I always say, look up. You
26:56
have to walk through the world with your eyes open
26:58
or else you're not going to get the story. Worry. Yeah.
27:01
Amen. One last question, Jacqueline,
27:03
is there one statistic or fact
27:06
or anecdote that you can
27:08
share that either really inspires you
27:10
because it enrages you or it gives
27:12
you hope about where women are
27:14
and where we could be. I
27:17
would say, thinking about it
27:19
right in this moment, I
27:21
think about people like you.
27:24
I think about Roxanne Gay and Dressing
27:26
McMillan, Cottam and Jamil
27:28
Hill and all of these
27:30
women who have podcasts
27:33
now who are speaking truth to power
27:35
and being heard. And I think
27:37
about our young women and
27:39
older who actually have access
27:42
to this kind of information just by
27:45
putting their earphones in. So this
27:47
is huge for me, the fact that we
27:49
can have this conversation, and this conversation
27:51
can go out to lots and lots and
27:53
lots of people and they can continue
27:55
the conversation. It feels grassroots,
27:58
and it feels empowering, and it
28:00
feels world changing. That's
28:02
what I'm excited about today, that we're talking
28:04
to each other and we're telling the truth to each
28:07
other, and in doing so, we're protecting each
28:09
other and lifting each other up. So let's
28:11
continue that. Well, yes, Jacqueline,
28:13
thank you. I listened to the radio a lot with my mom
28:15
when I was a little kid, like local public
28:18
radio and little at Arkansas, and I remember being so excited
28:20
when there would be like a girl's voice on the
28:22
air. And so when you said that, I haven't
28:24
thought about that and so long. And
28:27
to know that my children,
28:29
your children, thankfully won't
28:31
have that experience because it won't be strange, dear
28:34
women's voices is something I'm
28:37
really grateful for and proud to be a very small part
28:39
of. Thank you for being a part of it.
28:41
Thank you Jacqueline so much. You
28:46
can find Jacqueline Woodson on Twitter at
28:48
Jackie Woodson, and I highly recommend
28:50
all of her books. They are important
28:53
and beautiful and powerful
28:55
moving stories. Her latest is
28:57
a picture book called The Year
28:59
We Learned to Fly. And
29:02
thank you all so much for joining me for
29:04
this season of In Fact. It's
29:06
been truly inspiring to celebrate
29:08
Women's History Month with so many amazing
29:10
women. And while we celebrate
29:12
progress we've made toward equality across the
29:14
board, we know we still have a long
29:17
ways to go. I hope we will
29:19
share these incredible women's stories with your
29:21
friends, families, and beyond. Thank
29:23
you for listening. In
29:25
Fact is brought to you by I Heart Radio. We
29:27
are produced by a mighty group of women
29:30
and one amazing man, Erica
29:32
Goodmanson, Mart Hart, Sarah
29:34
Horowitz, Jessmin Molly, and Justin
29:36
Wright, with help from Lindsay Hoffman,
29:39
Barry Lurie, Joey Sukuban, Julie
29:41
Supran, Mike Taylor, and Emily Young.
29:44
Original music is by Justin Wright. If
29:47
you like this episode of In Fact, please make
29:49
sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode, and
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tell your family and friends to do the same. If
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you really want to help us out, please leave a review
29:56
on Apple Podcasts.
30:00
The four
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