0:02

Learning to love ourselves and our messy

0:04

and complicated truth is hard enough.

0:07

But what happens when you have that feeling

0:09

of otherness just hanging over your head,

0:11

where you don't feel understood even within

0:13

your own tribe. How do you confidently

0:16

grow into your own skin or

0:18

maybe even grow out of it when the road

0:20

to acceptance and healing is so rough

0:22

and bumpy. Hey

0:24

everyone, it's Zach. Welcome back

0:26

to In the Deep Stories that Shape Us. Did

0:29

you catch my conversation with Yolo Kille

0:31

Robinson in the last episode, because if not,

0:33

go check it out right after this. It's

0:36

a good one. We all need a friend like

0:38

Yolo reminding us that there is power

0:40

in living our truth and that repressed

0:42

trauma can show up unexpectedly in ways

0:44

that hurt even those we love. And on a lighter

0:47

note, you'll also hear how Yolo's military

0:49

father similar to my own aunt to Joy

0:51

and watching us wash, yes literally

0:54

wash the stones in their garden.

0:57

You just gotta listen to understand, all

1:00

right, So we all know those people that, despite

1:03

anything that comes their way, always

1:05

seem to be in high spirits, always

1:07

smiling, creating, just spreading good

1:09

vibes all the time. Our

1:11

guest today is no exception. She recently

1:13

starred in the movie Bros. She produced

1:16

her own show, The T. S. Madison Experience,

1:18

and it's even featured in Beyonce's song Cozy

1:21

off her latest album. But despite

1:23

all the success behind the fierce old woman

1:26

is also one who, like many of us, is

1:28

tired and one who has overcome

1:30

big struggles and her journey to become her

1:32

authentic self. I'm a huge

1:35

fan of T. S. Madison, not just because of her

1:37

work, but also because of who she

1:39

is and what she represents. She's always

1:41

been so real, so authentically

1:44

herself, which is something that many of us

1:46

wished to be all without worry.

1:48

But despite being herself, she's also

1:51

just like us, longing for the same things

1:54

happiness, success and healing.

1:57

So to begin our conversation today,

1:59

I wondered how she felt about it all,

2:02

her success, how she bounces the contradiction

2:04

of her life being bigger than ever, but

2:06

also wanting to sit it home and just relax.

2:12

To be honest with you, It's a thing

2:15

that goes on in my head all the time, like I don't want

2:17

to seem ungrateful to God, and I like

2:19

constantly working, but like I'm

2:21

exhausted right now. I want to take some time

2:24

and relax, and I want to do it with someone that

2:26

I love. I really would like to do

2:28

that. You know, that's very

2:30

difficult being busy and being

2:32

so enthralled in your career and

2:35

enthralled in this life cycle that you've

2:37

built for yourself. But then when

2:39

you get home and you have nobody did

2:42

you really doing it with or kicking

2:44

it with? You know, I have to tell myself,

2:46

Madison, you manifested this career that you have, so

2:49

you need to get back into your manifest room

2:52

and manifests your personal

2:54

life. You want to make sure that you're having a

2:56

personal life with someone that appreciates it, or

2:58

someone that you know under or

3:00

with someone that's not there for an opportunity,

3:03

because this is most definitely the time in your life

3:05

where you run into people who are

3:08

opportunistic and they

3:10

can become you know, they can see you as

3:12

a cover up m hm. And

3:15

you don't want to be laying in the bed with a person

3:17

who's plotting on you, and

3:19

and it does happen, and I don't I don't want to be

3:21

that person that it happens too. Yeah,

3:24

especially because in your life, from

3:26

what I know, from what I read and here, you know,

3:29

you've always had to fight to be here

3:31

and to fight to thrive. And it

3:33

sounds like you don't want to have to also fight when you're laying

3:35

in bed with someone about like, are you here for the right things?

3:38

Are you here for because you love me? It's

3:43

Edward Snowden leaks confidential CIA

3:45

documents and flees to Russia. Beyonce

3:48

debuted her self titled album By

3:50

Surprise, and people like Kim Kardashian

3:52

are doing more and more to quote break

3:55

the Internet. It's a time filled

3:57

with booty licious selfies and self promotion,

3:59

one feeling more wild than the next because

4:02

everyone wants to updo the last viral sensation.

4:05

It's also a time where we see the rise of

4:07

the Vine and now dead social media

4:09

platform where you could upload self made videos,

4:12

and then one day this year, Maddie

4:14

decides to release a vine that rocked the

4:16

Internet. Everything

4:19

I've done in this world has been about

4:21

me surviving. You know, you don't know the cards

4:23

that you're dealt. You just know when you get up, you gotta play

4:26

their hand. And um, I

4:29

was steal into the adult film industry.

4:31

My website was strong, but

4:34

I also wanted to get a reach a wider audience.

4:36

I started posting a little nude

4:38

crips with me, a little funny nude

4:40

clips because when I used to do adult film, my

4:43

adult films were very satire, very

4:45

funny. It was sex, but it

4:47

was satire. So I found

4:49

the outlet call Vine, and on Vine

4:52

it was six seconds of you know,

4:54

posting little videos. I have to

4:56

make sure that I say this so that people can understand.

4:59

Before I even posted on

5:02

the vine app. I made sure that there

5:04

were other adult or nude

5:06

or other things there before I posted them.

5:09

I was not trying to post adult

5:12

or new things in places where there

5:14

was no other new things. I wasn't trying to

5:16

infiltrate that space. So I just trying to promote

5:20

my product. Honey.

5:22

I posted Knew, We've Knew, We Yes.

5:26

A guy picked it up from New Orleans

5:28

as a straight guy picked it up and

5:31

was so enthralled of like why does this woman

5:33

have a penis?

5:36

Like why does this fat woman have

5:38

a penis? And

5:41

he doesn't even know The seed that he planted in

5:43

the ground just threw me into a viral

5:45

space, whatever he meant

5:47

to be for joking or to poke fund

5:49

at me or whatever. It really catapulted my career

5:52

to a whole another direction. But

5:55

at first the response to it was

5:57

very negative. I had to

5:59

go through had to crawl through ship to get to

6:01

sugar. And the negative response

6:04

I received was from my community because at

6:06

that time, it was like when Laverne Cox was

6:08

on the cover of Time magazine or

6:10

just New Black Without. You know, it was

6:12

called the transgender tipping point, and

6:15

so because of that, I

6:17

was looked at as the villain and she was the hero

6:20

because it was like your counterproductive

6:23

madesty, Like you're showing your nude body and

6:25

you're doing this stuff and

6:28

you're just the detriment to the movement, and

6:30

we'll be trying to do for trads people. Fast

6:32

forward to now,

6:35

I'm looking at now and how my

6:37

presence was a necessary component because

6:40

you got the opportunity to see

6:42

trads people on all spectrums. You had

6:44

an opportunity to see Laverne shine at her glory,

6:47

and you also got to see me breaking

6:49

down barriers about trans

6:51

bodies and sex workers and

6:53

adult film and things like that. I was

6:55

only in this thing trying to survive and whatever.

6:57

They posted those little clips and stuff with me.

7:00

I never posted them on Facebook

7:03

or Twitter or is. I never did

7:05

that. It was the masses

7:07

of people posted there, and

7:09

it caused so much discussion and

7:12

awareness around trays people and trans people's

7:14

bodies and stuff like that. So I didn't even know that

7:16

I was doing a revolutionary act.

7:19

I only was trying to freaking make

7:22

my money to survive. When

7:25

you're someone so sure of yourself like Maddie,

7:28

it's rare that people can hurt you with their

7:30

comments, especially when they come from

7:32

a place of hate. But she had a

7:34

different reaction when she received painful

7:36

backlash from her own community when

7:38

she had helped build and protect Because

7:41

when her own community cast her against transactors

7:43

Laverne Cox, she felt like the other.

7:46

With Laverne being the poster child for what

7:48

good trans women should be and Maddie

7:51

now being the opposite. It felt

7:53

like a betrayal, a slap in the face

7:55

to be chastised by the very community

7:58

that's supposed to protect her. I

8:01

had a lot of people that were making fun

8:03

of me, like, you know, like oh, she's so fat,

8:06

or he is a fat man

8:08

with a Those are man boobs,

8:10

you know. And so the one

8:12

thing about me, I've always been

8:14

confident in myself, comfortable

8:17

in my skin. It didn't bother me

8:19

like that. But what bothered me

8:21

the most was, you know, my

8:23

community attacking me. I was in

8:25

my space, in my world, doing

8:28

my own thing. I let everybody

8:30

who would somebody be somebody, and I was just

8:32

trying to be me in my space. I

8:34

was more so angry at the

8:37

conversation around my

8:39

presence and

8:42

how my presence was

8:44

like a detriment to people. And

8:47

I'm like, those people don't give a dam about me. What I'm

8:49

trying to pay my bills, when I'm trying to survive, when

8:51

I'm trying to eat, what I'm trying to live somewhere. I

8:53

can't go to the people to ask for no red

8:55

buddy, or no light bill buddy, or no

8:57

food buddy. I'm trying to make money.

9:00

But it made me agry because

9:02

it's just like you, you try to vilify

9:04

me for surviving.

9:07

I love Laverne because Laverne is

9:10

our pioneers, She's our hero. But

9:12

for them to say that, you

9:14

know, I was a detriman like

9:18

that, that mentally misses with you a little bit because

9:21

and it's like people don't understand, like that

9:23

would pick two girls against each other. Yeah,

9:26

and you know America loves to pitt black women against

9:29

each other. We have two black trains women visible,

9:31

let's make them fight. It just felt very counterproductive.

9:34

I respect her, you know, and

9:36

I love her for what she is doing and

9:38

what she has done. And when I

9:40

had the opportunity to talk to her and tell her that this

9:42

is what was going or, she's like, oh my

9:44

god, she said she hates things like that, and

9:47

I do because it's like, bro, she's

9:49

who she is. Like, we're not all to

9:51

say we're not a monolist. She

9:53

is who she is. I'm who I am,

9:55

you know. And that

9:58

was hurtful to be hanging it

10:00

out as a villain. But

10:03

even through the backlash, Maddie didn't back

10:05

down. Instead, she doubled down on

10:07

her authenticity, her name, her

10:10

past. She never shied away from

10:12

her sex work even instead, she took

10:14

pride in it and kept the t S and her

10:16

name. And for those that don't know, t

10:19

S is a code trans women used to identify

10:21

as sex workers online as a symbol

10:24

and a message to break the stigma.

10:28

After I watched all the hate,

10:31

I saw the love that I was getting

10:33

from people like, oh my god,

10:35

I love you, t s, thank you for you know, making

10:37

BBCT or you know, just like

10:40

little stuff like that. And then I would see

10:42

kids courting no way of twenty two

10:44

inches and come on in,

10:47

you know stuff. I would see it and it will find

10:49

it funny. But what made me lean in

10:51

was now that I have your attention, let

10:53

me talk to you. They're girls like me that

10:56

are out there in the world that are trying

10:58

to survive, that are insects work, who are sex

11:00

workers because they've got to pay their bills, not

11:03

because it's a choice that they've made. So let

11:05

me talk to you about sex workers. Since we're talking.

11:08

Let let me talk to you about the secular life.

11:10

Since we're talking, since you listen it,

11:13

you know, let me get in here, make you

11:15

laugh and then tell you a story. Let

11:17

me take control of the narrative. Let

11:20

me get in here and take control of this and

11:22

steer you in the right direction. This

11:25

is what we're doing, this is why I'm doing this, and

11:27

this is what you need to know. This. I'm not the only one

11:30

out there. I might be the one that you see it now, but

11:32

I'm not the only one. Yeah

11:34

yeah. And what's also you

11:36

did at the same time you began, you

11:38

know, telling the truth, telling your own truth, having

11:40

a conversation, but you also are having really authentic

11:43

conversations where you weren't saying I'm the expert,

11:46

this is my life. I'm gonna tell you about my life.

11:48

How did you know to do that? Because you'll say,

11:50

like you, I know, there's an amazing club Ice

11:53

and my friends all the time where you call your friend a faget

11:55

I think, and then you say, oh, queen, here's

11:58

the thing. People see visibility,

12:00

and they see it it as one way.

12:03

And it's important for me to let

12:05

people know that I am not the way, the truth,

12:08

the light. I am my way.

12:10

I am my truth. I am my light.

12:14

You understand what I'm saying and the way you

12:16

treat me. Someone else may require

12:18

you to treat them a different way. Handle each

12:20

one of us individually. But when

12:23

you don't know, you ask,

12:26

Because even me in this situation

12:28

right now, I'm forty five years old, forty

12:30

five okay, and

12:32

I still mess up, get it wrong.

12:35

And when I mess up and get it wrong. I'm not

12:37

above reproach. I'm not above you know, reprimand

12:40

I'm not above it. But what I'm

12:43

confused, I ask, just like when

12:45

I get into situations with the they and them pronounced,

12:47

I'm like, Okay, times are evolving,

12:50

How do I use this in the sentence? How

12:52

do I approach people? And so it's important

12:54

that I lead by example. It's

12:57

important that we lead by example. We

12:59

can't tell people, oh, well, this is the proper

13:01

way to treat me if you don't show an example

13:03

of it. And I'm definitely an example

13:06

of getting some ship wrong m because

13:08

I loosely say fag but I said

13:11

amongst my friends or you know,

13:13

like girl friends that I know you know that understand.

13:16

It's just like we black people using the inn

13:18

word. Yeah, it's our word. Now,

13:20

honey, we took the power back. It's our

13:22

word. You can't use that. I think

13:24

that's a way more productive way of moving through the world

13:27

is to say we're not perfect. I don't know

13:29

everything, but this is what I do know, and this is

13:31

what's based off my experience. And it does

13:33

seem that people are really responsive

13:35

to that type of truth telling. And I just have never

13:37

seen anyone and do that before. Does that shock you that

13:40

you're telling your truth continues to have such a positive

13:42

impact. You know, honestly, people

13:45

like the wrong is to me the wrong stuff, and

13:47

you know people respond better to wrong because it's

13:49

it's not fiction, it's not a script. But

13:52

I also know when and where to give

13:54

a lot and to give enough,

13:59

and being wrong, being authentic, being

14:01

herself is exactly what Maddie does

14:03

best. One of her most iconic

14:06

videos, titled Bitch I'm Black, even

14:08

caught the eye of one of the world's biggest superstars,

14:10

Beyonce. But more than the celebrity

14:13

and visibility, it's a message behind

14:15

the video that's important here that

14:17

regardless of how much pain and hurt

14:19

and suffering we as black people are facing,

14:22

it's still our own people, sis gender black

14:24

men in particular, who aren't doing enough

14:26

to protect her in public, and

14:28

she manages to capture the essence of the confusion

14:31

within the video, showing that trans

14:33

women deserve to be loved and

14:35

respected in public and not just behind

14:37

closed doors. To

14:42

hear beyonce voice

14:44

meshed with mine is an amazing

14:47

thing just for that,

14:50

Like, that's freaking Beyonce to

14:53

hear her voice mesh with mine, but then to

14:55

hear her voice mesh with mine on a statement

14:59

to the people, I'm dog

15:01

scared, light scared, beige,

15:04

fluorescent, bige, bitch are black.

15:07

The message that I was trying to give to

15:09

the world was taken further

15:11

than I could ever even give it

15:13

by a global phenomenon who

15:16

got it, who

15:18

got the message, And it

15:20

just made me feel like Matta say, your voice

15:22

is never invadue. The

15:24

things that you stand for is not invague

15:26

because you have a global superstar,

15:29

a global phenomenon who has elevated

15:32

your voice to the highest plateau h

15:35

CO signing the things that you were talking about.

15:37

I can't explain it. Do you feel

15:40

with the song out there and people hearing your voice more

15:42

through that song and that specific message you were giving, which

15:44

is, you know, protect black trans women. Was the

15:46

message that trades women just protect

15:48

us? Do you think people are hearing

15:51

that now? And how are like black men hearing the song

15:53

in your own life right now? This is

15:55

about a black movement all around,

15:58

not just straight black people, but l

16:00

g B t q i A Black people, particularly

16:03

black trains women, Like Wow, this

16:05

is a powerful message that I need to

16:07

listen to. I think that the

16:10

response has been bringing

16:12

more awareness and it's making

16:14

people more comfortable, really comfortable, and

16:17

they're scared and comfortable with,

16:19

you know, sharing their blackness

16:21

because I think what happens is with black people,

16:24

we only want to share our blackness with black

16:27

women. Let

16:29

me just go there. Do you have to

16:31

be comfortable with sharing your black womanhood

16:33

with other aspects? With other

16:35

areas of black women, Black

16:38

trays women exist, and

16:40

so you have to be comfortable and

16:42

sharing those lived experiences with

16:45

each other. We have to be comfortable doing that. And

16:47

I think that that's definitely what

16:49

Beyonce's voice best with biod is definitely

16:52

saved. It definitely does put

16:54

out the message that like my womanhood, Beyonce

16:56

is the same womanhood as Maddie's

16:58

womanhood, and we all need and not only see

17:01

that, but also sing the song about it and

17:03

celebrate that in the streets, which is

17:05

why it's such a radical moment. And

17:07

you know, do you find I'd love to know do you

17:09

find that type of messaging, you know, you and

17:11

Beyonce together more impactful for

17:13

black trans women than you know, just

17:16

the reports about all the violence, Because I feel like black trans

17:18

women and why I love what you do so much is you bring so

17:20

much joy to the forefront. And a lot of

17:22

times when we hear about black trans women in the media, it's about

17:24

death, you know, murder, all these bad

17:26

things that you and Beyonce in that moment

17:28

are really saying. You know, we're gonna celebrate this, We're gonna talk

17:30

about it. Is that more impactful. We're

17:33

combating the negativity, We're

17:35

combating the evils that's

17:37

out there, and we'll celebrate. We'll saying, listen,

17:39

damn all that other stuff, you

17:41

know, put the arms down, or

17:44

put the hate down, and fight the real

17:46

Itoby here, fight

17:48

the real Itoby, fight the real internalized

17:50

how befhobia, the internalized transphobia.

17:52

You know, fight this within our community

17:55

hood. Let me bridge the gap in between and

17:57

elevate, you know, our voices so that we can

18:00

saying, oh, what a chord. I personally

18:02

think that you know, this goes

18:04

hand in hand with each other. It's

18:08

hard to combat the stigma, the negativity

18:10

that comes with being you, especially

18:12

in a place like the South. I'm also

18:15

from the South, and I'm too familiar with the juxtaposition

18:17

of feelings those opposing thoughts

18:20

that come from the church versus your family or

18:22

even ourselves. And sometimes

18:24

I wonder if in places like the South, where

18:26

so many people like Maddie and the exist,

18:29

if things are progressing fast enough for change.

18:33

I think that black people

18:35

are are subconsciously

18:38

homophobic, it transphobic,

18:41

because it's something today inherited, and

18:44

there are even gay people. It trades

18:46

people who are transphobic and homophobic

18:49

because we were raised up into these

18:51

these hopes like this, and

18:54

so I don't think that it's our fault

18:57

because this is something that's been generationally

19:00

is in us. But I just think that visibility,

19:03

like with girls like myself and other girls who who

19:05

are standing for and who who because I openly

19:07

talk about my love for God and and the way

19:09

that I feel about how God is impactful

19:12

in my life and how my whole career and

19:14

my whole presence is God is the reason

19:16

for it. So I

19:19

think that that kind of like offset some of

19:21

the struggles that we have as queer people

19:23

with believe it in God and professing

19:25

our faith to God, you know. And then we

19:27

have people like Kimberreil, who's always

19:30

in the media for that nasty ship that she says

19:32

towards the LGBT people and

19:35

and just people in general, like, it's just the

19:37

body of Christ, the fake

19:40

body of Christ, I should

19:42

say, because the body

19:44

of Christ lives within us, all the

19:46

presence of Christ lives within us, all but

19:48

the fake body. We're seeing

19:51

so many people of the Church, so many people of the

19:53

cloth coming forward,

19:55

and things are being exposed

19:57

that we're like, girl, we're not nobody's thinking about that.

20:00

Did nobody think about

20:02

the church? What those Church of people say? Funk that? I

20:05

love the Lord. I

20:08

have no doubt Maddie is going to accomplish

20:10

all these things and more. But in

20:12

matters of the heart, especially as

20:14

a trans woman, I wanted to know how

20:16

she managed the other because

20:18

even as confident, bold and loving as

20:20

she is, the challenge of dating

20:22

as a trans woman is difficult when people

20:25

are not living their truth. I

20:27

wanted to know what did love represent

20:29

for Maddie and how did she deal

20:32

with the transphobia and homophobia

20:34

she had faced five

20:37

years ago. Somebody

20:39

asked me, where do you see yourself in five years? And

20:41

I said, how do you know? I want this? I want this. Some

20:45

of that stuff happens some of it did. I

20:47

am going to walk

20:50

in the footsteps of what God

20:52

has for me to walk here. I

20:54

know what I would like to have. I

20:57

want this at what a bigger house? And what more? Buddy?

20:59

I want this? But whatever it is that God has

21:01

for me to do, That's what I want to

21:03

do. And I want to occupy all those spaces

21:06

that God has you

21:08

know, created for me specifically

21:11

for me. I want the

21:14

roles He has for me. I want the you

21:16

know, the shows He has for me, whether it's television,

21:19

theater, broadway. Feel

21:23

and out of everything you just said, which I think you should

21:25

get and we'll get all those things. You didn't

21:27

bring up love, which is where we began,

21:30

was love and feeling held.

21:32

What does love look like for you? Special? You know, we

21:35

don't talk enough about the stigma

21:37

black trans women face, especially from straight man

21:39

in the black community, and like what you have to deal

21:41

with every day just looking for love? So how are

21:43

you navigating that? Just the fact

21:45

that like straight men are transphobic and

21:48

you're dealing with that on top of everything

21:50

else. What is love? Baby,

21:52

don't hurt me, don't hurt

21:55

me, nobo ah?

21:58

What is it? What is love? I

22:00

found myself loving people more than than they ever

22:03

loved me. I found myself

22:05

being co dependent

22:07

on the people. I found myself

22:11

being a mob to someone

22:13

that should be a husband or boyfriend.

22:16

I'm gonna ask God to designed

22:19

someone for me, specifically

22:22

for me that's masculinity,

22:24

isn't fragile, that

22:27

is secure with it himself as a man, and

22:31

who loves, appreciates,

22:34

cherishes me, pushes

22:36

me. It equally meets

22:38

me with the love that I give

22:41

to him equally. I

22:43

want us to share the same

22:46

love, any bullshit and feeling for each other equally.

22:49

M Hopefully I get it before

22:52

I leave earth. Hopefully

22:54

I want that for you too. And it feels like the only

22:57

bearer you have to that is just

22:59

sure eight men not living in an environment that says loving

23:02

a black trans woman is the same

23:04

love? Am I right there? You're

23:06

correct, You're you're extremely correct about that,

23:08

because you know there being that

23:11

be that like transform but not go to identify as

23:13

gay. Bid. Yeah, they're not going

23:15

to do that, so you know. But

23:18

I mean, I've I've been dating bid

23:20

who are comfortable, but it's just other hiccups

23:22

that are at all. Yeah,

23:27

before I could let her go, I want

23:29

to know what advice she had for men looking for

23:31

love, especially the men who are

23:33

struggling with how to talk about the relationship

23:36

with the trans woman. Well,

23:41

I think that you know, when it boils

23:43

down to it, who's going to wipe your

23:45

asks when you're a d who's going

23:47

to tuck you in? Is

23:49

the world going to do that for you? Or if

23:52

the person you love going to do that for

23:54

you? Love go

23:57

the distance? For what will go

23:59

the distance for you? And

24:01

everybody that's outside talking about

24:05

what you should love and how you should love

24:07

it, who you should love, Tell them to come

24:09

ere and love you. If

24:12

they're not gonna come here and love you, let me do what I need

24:14

to do. Let me receive

24:16

this love, let me give this love. And

24:19

man, it's just like I think men lives

24:21

so in a space of what others think and

24:23

others say, like like, fuck

24:26

the world, it's about you. Maddie's

24:32

energy is so contagious. It

24:34

makes you want to be your best self, the

24:36

truest form of you. And it's wild

24:38

to think that there was a time where people made

24:40

her feel less them or like a villain of

24:42

sorts because she's so great at protecting

24:45

herself and her energy. But it's

24:47

this vulnerability that makes me love her even

24:49

more because it shows that even the strongest

24:52

people, the people that hold us down on our

24:54

worst days, are really just like us.

24:57

What's inspiring about Maddie is that even on

24:59

her off days, she manages to

25:01

impact change. Like her viral

25:03

videos, when she is her boldest, her loudest,

25:06

at her most vulnerable is when she heals

25:08

and overcomes the stigmas that plague her in

25:10

her community at large. We

25:15

are so excited for you to be here season

25:17

two of In the Deep Stories That Shape Us.

25:20

Keep coming back every other week and taking

25:22

these powerful stories of Black and Latin

25:24

people as they take us on their own healing

25:26

journeys. In the Deep

25:29

Stories That Shape Us is executive produced

25:31

by myself, Zach Stafford, and Ivan

25:33

Chien and mastered by James Foster

25:35

and our writer is Yvette Lopez. A shout

25:38

out to our guests T S. Madison