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Hi there, I am thrilled you are downloading

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Truth tool? I love it, I love the title, I

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love the author. It's called How to Talk About Jesus

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We don't want to talk about Jesus. We're afraid

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the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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I don't know about you, but none of us is ever too

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old to learn how to do this, because the

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Scroll to the bottom of the page and that's all you do

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now. Please enjoy the broadcast.

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Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.

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Divorce tax is not.

2:52

Hi friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet

2:54

Parshall. Thrilled. We're going to spend the hour together.

2:57

We're going to talk about narcissism again.

2:59

Why, you ask are you doing it again?

3:01

Well, I'm doing it again because

3:03

you're doing it again. Every time my friend

3:05

Laura Slade Wagner comes and we say we're talking

3:08

about the topic of narcissism,

3:10

I'm telling you, from the time I give the phone number

3:12

until the end of the hour, every line

3:14

is lit. I don't know about you,

3:16

but from where I'm sitting, that's a pretty strong

3:18

indicator that this is one of those. It needs

3:21

to be talked about conversations, particularly

3:23

in the church, because yeah,

3:25

it's not so well understood in

3:27

the culture writ large, but it's particularly misunderstood

3:30

in the church. And then there's a lot of painful

3:32

advice that's given. Like

3:34

you wife need to change your

3:36

attitude. Maybe there's something

3:38

wrong with you. Maybe you just need

3:40

to not say any words, but have a gentle and loving

3:43

spirit. All of that's good. But what

3:45

do you do with the fact that there's an abuser there? Just because

3:47

he doesn't give you a black eye or break your arm,

3:49

doesn't mean he's any less of an abuser. And by the

3:51

way, for uays, I'm using the male

3:53

pronoun females and males

3:55

can be narcissists. Okay, so we're not picking

3:57

on men by any stretch of the imagination,

3:59

but it is a particularly pernicious personality

4:02

disorder because it struts

4:04

on the stage of life. If I can steal a little bit

4:06

from Shakespeare in a costume that

4:08

looks oh so good to the outside and

4:10

is oh so rotten to the core on

4:12

the inside. In fact, that's the question I'm going

4:14

to start with, with Laurel Slade Wagner. But I'm going to

4:16

do a couple of things. First, you need the phone number,

4:19

open lines this hour. Any question.

4:22

And it's questions only on the topic

4:24

of narcissism. 87754836758775483675.

4:31

And what is it? How do I identify it? Am I

4:33

one? How do I avoid the triggers? What

4:36

do I do with my children? The list goes on and on and

4:38

on. Trust me, the questions percolate up as they do

4:40

every single time Laurel

4:42

comes on. Number two, I want to tell you a little something about Laurel.

4:44

She is a board certified professional Christian

4:47

counselor. She's a licensed mental health

4:49

counselor, licensed marriage and family therapist.

4:51

She's been practicing in the state of Florida

4:53

for close to 20 years as a private practice.

4:56

She has written and published on her

4:58

own some books. Because this is a hot topic, by

5:00

the way, and a lot of people, particularly in Christian publishing,

5:02

kind of, well, they step away from it, right?

5:04

It's because it's not understood. And

5:06

if it's not understood and if it becomes argumentative,

5:09

then it doesn't sell. Books and publishing, bless Their

5:11

hearts, is about selling books, so they don't want to do

5:13

it. So Laurel said, you know what? I'm a counselor.

5:15

The brokenhearted people sit opposite my chair.

5:17

I want to get information and resources into

5:19

their hands. So she did not one, but two books.

5:22

The first one dealing specifically with the

5:24

narcissist entitled Hard to Forget

5:26

the title Don't Let Their Crazy Make

5:28

You Crazy How to stay Sane and

5:30

Strong. When the narcissist in your life is trying to

5:32

control or abuse you. Second is

5:34

children are often used as

5:36

poison darts in a relationship

5:39

with. There is a narcissist, and that's particularly

5:41

hard because it damages the children

5:44

as well as the marriage. And

5:46

this has generational impact. By the way,

5:48

the kids who are raised by narcissists grow up

5:50

and they have a high propensity of being narcissist themselves,

5:52

or they have such deep, entrenched

5:55

anger by the time they become

5:57

an adult, they hardly know how to handle it. And so

5:59

enter drugs, alcohol, sex,

6:01

anything to numb the pain. So there

6:03

is an impact. You know, you talk about the sins of the father.

6:05

The more I ruminate on that verse, the more I think it's

6:07

behaviors that get picked up and replicated

6:10

generation after generation after

6:12

generation. It isn't a predisposed

6:14

supermarket ahead of time of sin. It's

6:16

watching sinful behavior and then replicating

6:18

it in your own life. So that book is called

6:20

Don't Let Their Crazy Make Your Kids Crazy.

6:23

How to shield your children from their narcissistic

6:25

Parents control and manipulation. Soon,

6:28

a new book coming out, Crazy Talk. I

6:30

can't wait for this one. How to respond when the narcissist

6:32

in your life is being demanding, dismissive

6:35

or degrading. And boy, all three happen all

6:37

the time. By the way, she's got a website

6:39

called I've got a link on. I'm not going to say it

6:42

over the air. It's her last name. It's Slade Wagner

6:44

Counseling services.com there. I did say

6:46

it. It's on the information page.

6:48

But if you want to talk privately and professionally

6:50

to Laurel, just work through that website. So I give

6:52

you that just as a bit of information. She

6:54

has a free podcast called help. I have

6:56

a narcissist in my life. You can find it wherever there

6:58

are podcasts. She's on social platforms

7:00

everywhere. And by the way,

7:03

again, she comes and visits on a monthly

7:05

basis, for which I am thrilled because there's

7:07

always so much we talk about. So again, that number,

7:10

any question you have on narcissism? (877) 548-3675.

7:14

So here's what I've learned about

7:16

narcissists. Laurel. And I would love for

7:19

you to help me understand it, because to the person who

7:21

is the recipient of the narcissist behavior,

7:23

notice I'm not using gender specific

7:25

pronouns here. So the spouse

7:27

who isn't the narcissist

7:29

but knows they are definitely married

7:32

to a narcissist understands

7:34

that there is a Jekyll and Hyde phenomenon

7:36

going up. They go to a church

7:38

gathering there in their small groups and oh, the narcissists

7:41

lights up the room. I like to put it

7:43

in these words. They suck the air out of the room

7:45

because they are always drawing attention to themselves.

7:47

They're the biggest chatterbox in the room. They're

7:49

self-aggrandizing. They put out false.

7:52

Sprays, and they're making themselves

7:54

very me centric in the process of all of that,

7:56

but just as charming as could be in

7:58

the old days, you'd say he was selling snake oil

8:00

off the back of a wagon, then you get home,

8:03

and that's where the dismissive stuff

8:05

comes in. That's in your subtitle. That's where the demanding

8:07

stuff comes in. That's where the degrading stuff comes

8:09

in. In fact, now the bloviating

8:11

snake oil salesman bears no resemblance

8:13

to the person who's now at your kitchen

8:16

table. And that makes you feel

8:18

crazy, because now you tell people but

8:20

you don't understand. The person I'm married to is

8:22

fill in the blanks and they go, there must be something wrong

8:24

with you, because I didn't see that. In fact, I

8:26

think that individual is a charmer.

8:28

And then you start beating yourself up. So it's

8:30

an ugly, ugly, cyclical response.

8:33

Okay. So first of all, when that happens

8:35

and they're talking to you about this in your office,

8:37

Laurel, how do you often that offer

8:40

that person encouragement. Because the first thing they do

8:42

is they think I'm crazy. That's

8:44

why the word crazy appears in both of your books.

8:46

Don't let their crazy make your kids crazy,

8:48

and don't let their crazy make you crazy.

8:50

This is the kind of stuff that makes somebody crazy.

8:52

Talk to me about this.

8:55

Yeah, absolutely. Janet, thank you so

8:57

much for having me back on. I just I can't believe

8:59

we're we're having so many conversations

9:01

about this. It's heartbreaking. There's just so many people

9:04

suffering in silence, like you said, because of that Doctor

9:06

Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. And

9:08

so what? The very first thing I tell people

9:10

is you are precious. You

9:13

are not crazy. You are not too sensitive,

9:15

you are not bad. You are not anything that

9:17

that narcissist is trying to

9:19

project onto you. They're doing it so

9:21

that they can maintain control.

9:23

What I'm seeing happen a lot

9:26

is I don't know if you've heard of communal narcissism.

9:30

I hear the music, so I know we

9:32

have to stop talking.

9:33

You know what? You're so kind. Laurel.

9:35

Let me do this. Let me put pause on the word communal

9:37

narcissism and let me pick it up on that

9:40

note. Exactly on the other side, to my friends,

9:42

I got only two lines open. This is

9:44

what happens every time Laurel comes. So get

9:46

in line. When you hear me say goodbye. Then that means

9:49

that I've got a line that's opened up. (877) 548-3675.

9:54

That's (877) 548-3675.

9:57

Laurel Slade Wagner is with us. Such a tender,

10:00

tender teacher on the subject

10:02

of narcissism. And we'll continue after

10:04

this. Why

10:19

is it so difficult to talk to our closest friends

10:21

about what's most important to us? That's

10:23

why I've chosen how to talk about Jesus without looking

10:25

like an idiot. As this month's truth tool,

10:27

learn how to engage in natural conversations

10:29

about what matters most. Ask for your copy

10:32

about how to talk about Jesus without looking like

10:34

an idiot. When you give a gift of any amount to in the

10:36

market, call 877 Janet 58.

10:38

That's 877 Janet 58 or

10:41

go to in the market with Janet parshall.org.

10:45

We are visiting with Laurel Slade

10:47

Wagner, a board certified professional Christian

10:49

counselor. She really does have an expertise

10:52

in the subject of narcissism.

10:54

She writes about it, she counsels on this

10:56

topic, she's lived it. And I don't

10:58

know about you, but I, I it's

11:00

like I've said before and I'll say it again, I

11:02

always like going to a dentist. Well, let me preface

11:04

that. Nobody likes going to the dentist, but when I do

11:07

have to go to the dentist, I'd rather go

11:09

to a dentist who's had a toothache because he really knows

11:11

what I'm dealing with. She really understands the pain

11:13

that I'm going through. And the same thing with the counselor.

11:15

If you've had to deal with something like this in your life,

11:18

it isn't just head knowledge book learning. It's

11:20

that wounded comforter that Scripture talks about.

11:22

That therefore affords us a different kind

11:24

of comfort in our pain as well.

11:26

So I'm going to go to the phones in a minute. I've got one

11:29

line left. That's it everyone. The other lines

11:31

are all lit up. And again, that doesn't mean you can't get

11:33

in. Just wait for me to say goodbye. (877) 548-3675.

11:38

Use the term just before the break, Laurel,

11:40

and I'm very curious to see how it gets applied.

11:42

Communal narcissism. What is that?

11:46

Uh, that's where someone with a narcissistic

11:49

personality uses giving and

11:51

serving to feed his or

11:53

her grandiosity and sense of moral

11:55

superiority. So narcissists

11:58

think that they're superior to other people

12:01

with communal narcissists. They

12:03

think that they're morally superior.

12:05

So they will give

12:07

they will serve a lot of the church. They

12:09

might be deacons, they might

12:11

even be on staff at a church

12:13

or just constantly they're

12:16

serving, but they do it so they feel

12:18

they get this superiority fix.

12:21

And then what they do is

12:23

then they put other people down.

12:25

They view other people as morally inferior.

12:28

And so this is where you get that Doctor Jekyll and

12:30

Mr. Hyde stuff because they

12:32

think they're they're so wonderful, they're

12:34

so pious, they're so righteous because of their

12:36

serving. And so they

12:39

no one they put these unrealistic

12:41

expectations on spouses or

12:43

family members or coworkers.

12:45

They're just impossible to work

12:47

with. You think you're you're going crazy

12:50

because everybody out there sees them giving

12:52

and serving and thinks they're so wonderful.

12:54

And then you're at home with this person

12:56

who's treating you horribly behind closed

12:58

doors. So it's just a

13:01

vicious, vicious cycle

13:03

of the victim suffering silently,

13:05

doubting their sanity, doubting their goodness

13:07

because they're seeing that this narcissist

13:10

is getting all this attention from the community. It's

13:12

really exploiting the church

13:14

or the Christian organization.

13:17

So it's just I see so much

13:20

of it going on.

13:21

I would be remiss if I didn't put a capstone

13:23

on this. And I know people are anxious to talk to you

13:25

because every line is lit. But to

13:27

the person for whom you're saying there's listening

13:29

and they're saying, this is my experience,

13:32

no, but I'm shouting into a hurricane.

13:34

Nobody hears me. What counsel

13:36

do you give someone who finds himself in this situation?

13:39

Because it is a Jekyll and Hyde, and

13:41

it is a kind of schizophrenic

13:43

face, the public and the private face. So what do

13:45

you tell them to do?

13:47

I tell them to have hope

13:50

to take a few deep breaths. We're going to come

13:52

up with a strategy. I tell them

13:54

sometimes you might have to go outside the

13:56

church, tell them to do a lot of reading,

13:58

a lot of research on biblical

14:00

foolishness, yet a lot of

14:03

ammunition from the Bible to go

14:05

in and be able to get

14:08

some help from a Christian counselor or get some

14:10

help from a pastor. And if it's not a

14:12

pastor at your own church, it might be a pastor

14:14

at a different church. But. But it

14:16

is so obvious in the Bible

14:18

that there is such a thing as biblical

14:21

foolishness, which parallels today with

14:23

what we call clinical narcissism.

14:25

And it's evil and it's wicked. And

14:27

and so God has a very he's

14:30

such a God of process and strategy. He

14:32

knows exactly what you're going

14:34

through, and he has instruction for

14:36

it so that you can put a stop to

14:38

this abuse. You don't need to suffer silently.

14:41

There is help and there is

14:43

hope for you to put an end to your

14:45

to this, this image

14:47

that they're creating, that you are so

14:49

morally inferior and they're so superior.

14:52

There is that last.

14:54

Answer is exactly why I think people keep

14:56

calling in Laurel is that they need to be validated,

14:58

that somebody is hearing them, even if it's

15:00

a voice they're hearing on national radio. Somebody is hearing

15:03

what they're going through. Maria, you're in

15:05

Illinois. Thank you for your patience. Your question for

15:07

Laurel, please.

15:09

Hi. Um. I'm wondering

15:11

why God would allow

15:13

the development of narcissism,

15:17

and then he expects us to love

15:19

and communicate with each other and

15:21

care for each other when narcissists

15:23

don't know how to do any of that.

15:27

Maria, that that is a

15:29

deep theological question. You

15:31

know why God even allows

15:34

evil at all? But

15:36

if you can think that the God

15:38

would not ask us to do something

15:41

that we cannot do, that would make him

15:43

cruel, and he is good. So

15:45

there are processes to

15:48

love a narcissist. So I,

15:50

I get pushed back sometimes, like I'm not

15:52

a narcissist hater. I do

15:55

love narcissists, I

15:57

hate narcissism, I hate what it does

15:59

to victims. But we

16:01

can overcome evil with good.

16:03

The Bible asks us to do that, and

16:06

God wouldn't ask us if we couldn't do that.

16:08

And so when we're setting boundaries

16:10

with someone who's narcissistic, we're working

16:12

alongside of God. We're we're co-laborer

16:15

with God, binding that

16:17

sin so that that narcissistic

16:19

individual has the best chance

16:21

possible of realizing

16:23

his or her need for their Savior, because

16:25

we all need a Savior. Narcissists or people

16:28

who are biblically foolish. They just don't

16:30

acknowledge God or acknowledge

16:32

their need as a Savior, but they need to.

16:34

So, so part of loving someone

16:36

who's narcissistic, a big part of

16:38

it is working with God to bind that

16:40

sin by setting boundaries. We're

16:42

not to sit and suffer silently

16:44

and be submissive to someone else's

16:46

sin. We're to

16:49

confront that.

16:50

Laurel. That's. And Maria, I thank you

16:52

so much for the question. It's a deep thought

16:54

through question, and I thank you for that. Laura,

16:57

let me go to what you said before, because

16:59

it goes into a bigger conversation.

17:01

Probably not for today, but just to

17:03

understand, I've struggled with the issue

17:06

of boundaries because I thought love meant

17:08

if we loved one another, we never set boundaries because,

17:10

oh, isn't a boundary an unloving thing to do?

17:12

Lord had to teach me on that one. And it was tough.

17:14

Particularly what I did to get over

17:17

my ignorance was to study the life of Jesus

17:19

who drew boundaries. I'm not going to this village.

17:21

I'm not healing that person. I'm going to say,

17:23

no, I'm taking a nap. I mean, he did it all

17:25

the time. And if God incarnate

17:28

can set boundaries and yet he was

17:30

love. The Bible says God is love.

17:32

It's appropriate to know when and

17:34

how, but not if we should set

17:36

boundaries. So I thank you for that.

17:38

I think it's important for us to get that word back and

17:40

abacab. It doesn't mean you're being mean

17:42

sometimes. It means you're being very caring by

17:44

setting boundaries. Maria. Thank you. Now

17:46

that Maria's gone, it means I have an open

17:48

line. (877) 548-3675.

17:51

But a ton of people online. And when

17:53

we come back, we're going straight to the phones. Laurel

17:55

Slade Wagner is with us. She is

17:57

a board certified professional Christian counselor.

18:00

She's written on the subject of narcissism.

18:02

She has a website for you to go to

18:04

if you want to interact privately and personally.

18:06

She's got a couple of great books, all of which

18:08

is on our information page back after this.

18:27

We're visiting with Laurel Slade Wagner,

18:29

a board certified Professional Christian counselor

18:31

located in Florida. She's had a private practice

18:33

there for close to 20 years. She's

18:35

written a couple of books on our topic that we're discussing

18:38

on narcissism, which is why you're calling

18:40

in with your questions. Debbie. Thank you so

18:42

much for joining us from Tennessee. Your question

18:44

for Laurel, please.

18:46

Yes, ma'am. In our family, we

18:48

have a situation where there is a divorce.

18:51

Um, it has well, it's final, but

18:53

we're. But there is an appeal process that's going

18:56

to happen. There is a child involved.

18:58

And needless to say, one of the parents is

19:00

a very strong narcissist. The

19:03

other one has been abused. Therefore we have

19:05

narcissistic abuse issues with that person.

19:07

So my question is family

19:10

court system where there is narcissistic

19:12

abuse that has happened and is happening

19:14

to the child, but yet we have not

19:16

been able to prove that I

19:19

have a lot of circumstances

19:21

behind her. But I've talked with some Christians,

19:23

and some Christians are of the opinion that

19:25

the family court system is involved too much

19:27

in families now, and they don't need to be involved.

19:30

So that is my question. How do

19:32

we save the child without the family

19:34

family court system being involved with that?

19:37

Thanks.

19:38

Mm hmm. Oh

19:40

my goodness, that that breaks my heart.

19:42

The family court system is there

19:44

for families to turn to for

19:47

intervention and application. So

19:50

I'm one to go by Matthew 1815

19:53

through 17, that process that God

19:55

lays out. So if a narcissistic

19:58

parent, you confront them, the

20:00

non narcissistic parent confronts that narcissistic

20:02

parent. If you won't listen, you try to bring

20:04

the witnesses in a family court case like

20:06

that. I always recommend to people that

20:08

you get as many eyes on

20:11

what's going on as possible,

20:13

so you get people involved, like

20:15

a guardian ad litem that can advocate

20:17

for the child you get,

20:19

um, you have the parents

20:22

use a parenting app like our family wizard

20:24

or talking parents so that

20:26

it's all, uh, admissible in

20:29

court. And so the

20:31

lawyers can be reviewing all

20:33

that correspondence that goes on back and forth.

20:35

And one of the two flags for aggressive

20:37

language, I recommend sometimes

20:39

that you get a parent coordinator involved, um,

20:42

something that's pretty pricey. That's a next

20:44

step up would be a parent evaluator

20:46

where they come in and they do home studies, they

20:48

interview the children and do home studies. But

20:50

there's always a next level of

20:52

intervention so that

20:55

it can be proven. A lot

20:57

of states. Also, I think there's I

20:59

think there's five at the moment. They

21:01

also recognize coercive control.

21:03

So um, and parental alienation.

21:06

So if the narcissistic parent

21:08

is trying to alienate

21:10

that non narcissistic parent

21:12

through bribing the child

21:14

or through badmouthing

21:17

the non narcissistic parent, then that

21:19

is starting to be recognized

21:21

in the eyes of the law. So

21:24

there is hope out there.

21:26

Um, I, you just have to do a lot

21:28

of legwork, a lot of interviewing, get a

21:30

competent attorney. I tell people a lot

21:33

of my clients live in small towns, or

21:35

they live away from major

21:37

cities where there's a lot of options, legal options.

21:39

And I say they just have to be in your state

21:42

so you can pay a competent

21:44

attorney, maybe, who's a couple of hundred

21:46

miles away, just pay him for an hour

21:48

of his or her time and

21:50

get your questions answered. So knowledge

21:53

is power and then getting those

21:55

extra eyes. The witnesses, as Matthew

21:57

1815 through 17 talks about

22:00

hope is out there. Hope is out.

22:01

There. That's a great answer, Debbie. Hope you're

22:03

encouraged by that. And also, I know it doesn't help

22:05

you in the immediacy of your situation,

22:07

but what Laurel just said, impliedly,

22:10

is that there is a shift now in the courts

22:12

that they're beginning to understand. Like I've

22:14

said so often, that this is a form

22:16

of abuse, but you can't show a picture of a black

22:18

eye or a broken arm, but there is, in fact abuse

22:20

going on so slowly. The courts

22:22

are starting to take that. And so they're using terms, as

22:24

Laurel just talked about, like coercive behavior.

22:27

But that's what it is. It's abuse. But it's

22:29

the kind where you only see you don't see the bruises

22:31

on the inside. You only see bruises that

22:33

are on in the outside. (877) 548-3675.

22:38

That's our number here on in the market with Janet

22:40

Parshall. Laurel Slade Wagner is with us.

22:42

And we're taking up the subject of narcissism.

22:44

Any question you have on the topic? (877) 548-3675.

22:49

Sue, thanks for joining us from Illinois. Your question

22:51

please.

22:54

Thank you.

22:55

Janet and Laurel. Um, I'm

22:57

going to try to frame this as best I can

22:59

because it's very emotional for me.

23:02

Mm mm. Um, but.

23:06

Um, we have three sons

23:08

in laws, and two of them

23:10

are always willing to

23:12

take correction and love. One

23:14

of them is not. And

23:17

just the things that you speak about.

23:20

My daughter has been with him eight years.

23:22

They they're married, they have a child.

23:25

And, um, he

23:27

does things like, um, not

23:30

talk to her for two weeks in

23:32

the same house. Like, I'm

23:35

curious if there's something that we can

23:37

do outside of what we've done for the

23:39

past 20 years.

23:41

Um, to love our sons in law

23:43

and yet offer them correction

23:46

where we sometimes feel they need it. We're

23:48

a very close family, and

23:50

we don't do anything to hurt them. But

23:52

this son in law just doesn't receive,

23:54

and I don't. I don't know what to do.

23:57

Mm.

23:58

You are not alone in this

24:00

battle I speak with. I do

24:03

audio phone advice sessions. I speak with so

24:05

many people who are in your exact

24:07

circumstances, or their hearts break

24:09

for their daughter as they're

24:11

having to sit by and listen

24:14

to how she's being abused. What? I

24:16

just want to say that what he is doing

24:18

is abusive. He's punishing

24:21

with silence. He's giving her the silent

24:23

treatment. I don't know what the trigger

24:25

is, but I know that that trigger is not her

24:27

fault. And it's never okay

24:29

to withhold love and

24:31

to punish someone for silence,

24:33

especially for weeks at

24:35

a time. And if the child is witnessing

24:38

that, that's also abusing that child

24:40

because that child doesn't understand what

24:42

that tension is in

24:44

the home. I hear the music, Janet,

24:46

so we can talk about it on the other

24:49

side of the break if you want.

24:50

Absolutely. Because I know there's more you want to stay

24:52

for. Sue, say to Sue. So, Sue, I'm going to keep

24:54

you on hold if you don't mind, because I know

24:56

that Laurel wants to add more to her response as well.

24:58

And I thank you so much for the question.

25:00

The biggest thing she said to you and so many listening

25:03

across the country, you are not alone.

25:05

Remember that. That's why I'm so grateful to Laurel

25:08

and her transparency and her

25:10

compassion on this topic. (877) 548-3675

25:15

open phones this hour. Any question you have on

25:17

the subject of narcissism back after this?

25:29

How often do you tune into in the market?

25:31

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25:33

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25:35

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25:37

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25:52

in the market with Janet Parshall. Org

25:55

we are visiting with Laurel Slade Wagner,

25:57

who's a board Certified Professional Christian

25:59

Counselor. She is licensed in the state

26:01

of Florida. She's been taking

26:03

care of people there for the last almost

26:05

20 years in the Tampa Bay area. Written

26:07

a couple of books on the topic. Don't let their crazy

26:09

make you crazy, and don't let their crazy

26:12

make your kids crazy. A third one coming

26:14

down the road a piece soon. Crazy talk

26:16

how to respond when the narcissists in your life

26:18

is being demanding, dismissive, or degrading.

26:21

She has a podcast called help! I have a narcissist

26:23

in my life. It's a great free resource. And don't

26:25

forget, I also have a link to her website

26:28

should you choose to talk to her privately and

26:30

professionally. We've just taken away one step there

26:32

for you to be able to do it easier. But Sue

26:34

just raised an important question, which is

26:36

and you can hear her heart sounds. By the way, Sue, like

26:38

you're an absolutely fabulous parent. And you're right.

26:41

You know, giving counsel is something

26:43

that our adult children need. Character building

26:45

is the last vestige of our role as a parent.

26:47

We can't give them a grounding, can't give them a time

26:49

out. But we can sure give them counsel

26:51

on godly character. But you have one son

26:53

in law in particular who's not receptive

26:56

to anything you say. The idea of

26:58

not talking to your wife for two weeks is

27:00

just stunning to me. And Laurel, you said something I hadn't

27:02

even thought about before. That's withholding

27:04

love. That's about as punitive as you

27:06

could possibly get. And I know you had more you wanted

27:08

to say. So please continue.

27:10

Yes. And it's also it's punishing the

27:12

child because then the child, she said, there's

27:14

a child in the home. The child has to endure all

27:16

that tension between the parents and

27:19

doesn't understand what's going on. So

27:21

what you can do is you can encourage

27:23

your daughter, uh, give her scriptures

27:26

about what, uh, assertiveness,

27:28

give her scriptures about her preciousness,

27:31

encourage her to get in with

27:33

a good Christian counselor

27:35

that can help her. Someone with

27:38

who's giving someone the the silent

27:40

treatment. I say, you take that

27:42

power away from the narcissist

27:44

by revealing

27:46

that sin. So what you do is

27:48

you send she could send that

27:50

her narcissistic husband a

27:52

text or an email and say,

27:54

I would like to speak when you first starts

27:57

giving her the silent treatment,

27:59

I would like to speak with you,

28:01

uh, within the next 24

28:03

hours to talk about what's going

28:06

on, what time works for you.

28:08

If he still ignores her,

28:10

then she's got proof she's

28:12

exposing his sin, and then she can

28:14

take that to a counselor or to

28:17

the pastor and show I have made these

28:19

attempts. This is what he's doing. And

28:21

and he's behaving like an unbeliever.

28:24

He's withholding what she needs,

28:26

and she can't. She can't go get those things

28:28

from anyone else. God has

28:30

knit them together. And those are the responsibilities

28:33

of the husband. So she needs to

28:35

reclaim her sense of

28:37

worth and and really tap

28:39

into her preciousness and get in touch with her righteous

28:42

anger. Learn how to deal with

28:44

these different manipulative tactics,

28:46

like with a with a someone who

28:48

stonewalls or gives people

28:50

the silent treatment. What you want to do is

28:52

expose that sin by trying to set a time

28:54

to talk. That's

28:57

24 or 48 hours later.

28:59

Don't let it go on for two weeks. It's

29:01

a very much in the spirit of those scriptures

29:03

that talk about, and there's so much

29:05

confusion around these scriptures about turning

29:07

the other cheek or giving the additional

29:10

clothing. That's not

29:12

we're not supposed to allow ourselves

29:14

to be abused. Those scriptures give

29:17

that advice. So the sin is

29:19

clearly seen to others

29:21

as sin. And so that's

29:23

what what we're doing, we're showing

29:25

that he is withholding

29:28

and she's she's making all these efforts

29:30

to end the silent treatment. She's helping

29:32

God bind that sin. And if he

29:34

doesn't engage in that,

29:37

then shame on him. And she's going to go get the

29:39

witnesses, and she's

29:41

just not going to sit by and let herself be abused

29:43

because it is abuse. And like

29:45

Janet says, even though there's no scars

29:48

on a body, they're all over

29:50

her heart and all over her spirit.

29:52

Yeah, yeah.

29:53

Sue, thank you so much. I really appreciate

29:55

your being a part of the conversation. Lisa,

29:58

thank you for joining us from Florida. Your question please.

30:01

Hi, Laurel and Joanna, this

30:04

is Lisa and hi, Laurel. You've

30:06

spoken with me before multiple times.

30:09

Um, so if you remember, you'll probably

30:11

know my background story.

30:14

Um, so my question is,

30:16

when dealing with an

30:18

ex-spouse narcissist, which

30:21

I also have to co-parent with,

30:24

um, what's the best? Way to try

30:26

it instead, like you mentioned before. And

30:28

this is kind of following up to what Debbie

30:31

said as well, her call.

30:33

Um, that's on boundaries

30:35

with him, but also with my

30:37

child and those consequences

30:40

for my child when he

30:42

won't uphold them. And I always

30:44

get stuck in this triangulation

30:47

with him because I say no

30:49

to something or try to enforce a consequence.

30:52

And then he goes and undermines

30:54

me. And I know that's kind of not an

30:57

easy question, but if you just have

30:59

any, um, suggestions

31:01

and does it ever get better?

31:04

Because I've been doing this for like two years

31:06

and it's I'm still having some

31:08

of the same problems. Mhm.

31:11

Well Lisa, I'm so sorry.

31:13

Um, it is so difficult

31:16

because the they

31:18

will bribe children, they will,

31:21

um be very permissive in their

31:23

parenting so that the

31:25

child, an especially teenagers, won't

31:27

want to go to the non narcissistic parents

31:30

house because there's usually structure

31:32

and some house rules and some house responsibilities.

31:35

So it's like Disneyland over at

31:37

the narcissists house. And so

31:39

naturally teenagers are going to gravitate toward

31:41

the least restrictive environment and

31:43

where they get freedoms that

31:46

oftentimes aren't good for them, they're not

31:48

in their best interest. But this

31:51

this is not just missive, but hang

31:54

on to hope that

31:56

what you have to offer

31:58

is so much more powerful than

32:00

what he temporarily is offering

32:02

them. Just cling to that

32:04

truth, because that is going

32:06

to be your anchor to keep trying. What

32:08

I was saying to one of the other

32:10

callers was, you have to get some

32:12

other eyes on it. So if

32:15

it's just your word against

32:18

the the narcissistic

32:20

parents word, it just puts the kids

32:22

in in this bind. And

32:24

like I said, they're going to choose the least restrictive

32:26

environment. So you want to

32:28

get a parent coordinator involved.

32:31

You want to use those parenting apps. You

32:33

maybe you need to get

32:35

a guardian involved. I

32:38

say get these in place,

32:40

especially if you have teenagers.

32:42

Uh, because once they're 18,

32:44

you you can't make a teenager do

32:46

anything. You you can't,

32:49

um, do anything but start

32:52

setting boundaries with that teenager,

32:54

um, and maybe have to use the redemptive tool

32:57

of separation when they're of legal

32:59

adult age. So I say get as much in

33:01

place when they're minors so

33:03

that you can get some other eyes

33:05

on it. And you can you can have some

33:08

leverage.

33:09

Um, Lisa, thank you so much. I

33:11

greatly appreciate you being a part of our conversation.

33:14

Denise, I welcome you from Indiana. Your question

33:16

please.

33:17

Yes. Hi, Janet and Laurel. Um,

33:20

so my husband is deceased.

33:22

But.

33:23

I believe.

33:24

That.

33:24

He probably was a narcissist.

33:26

I didn't realize that until recently,

33:29

and I at least I think

33:31

he is. But I'm just wanting some confirmation.

33:34

He was. So many things have rung

33:36

true in what you're speaking about today.

33:39

He served as a deacon. He was

33:41

a chaplain. Um,

33:43

he he

33:45

was, but behind closed doors.

33:47

He was addicted to pornography. If

33:49

I found anything, it was my fault.

33:51

Not his fault. Um,

33:54

he would blame me for things.

33:56

He would do grandiose gestures for me.

33:58

Like for Christmas.

34:00

He would tell everybody that he didn't want

34:02

any presents to spend all their money on me.

34:05

Um, because he wanted to give me this super

34:08

deluxe gift. Um,

34:10

and. He

34:13

was the the the

34:15

permissive parent. I

34:17

was the one that wanted to be

34:19

disciplined, to give discipline to children,

34:21

and he would let our daughter

34:23

do whatever, pretty much whatever

34:25

without that. So. Does

34:28

that ring true as a narcissist

34:31

or am I just. Making,

34:34

you know, am I thinking that it could be something

34:36

different or. I just

34:38

don't know.

34:40

All of the things that you were saying,

34:43

Denise. They they are

34:45

exactly what I was talking about. But that communal

34:47

narcissism. And so

34:49

I think you said he was a deacon,

34:51

yet he was addicted to pornography

34:54

and made it. You feel like that

34:56

was your fault. So

34:58

that's a byproduct. That's the byproduct

35:01

of gaslighting. And so he

35:03

was making you feel that

35:06

you were the reason that he

35:08

had to sin. And then

35:10

he's not even open

35:12

to getting some help for

35:14

it. Uh, that he was

35:16

very unsafe, very destructive.

35:19

That's exactly what communal

35:21

narcissism is. And I hope and

35:23

pray that you know that

35:25

in your heart and that you don't take responsibility

35:27

and that and that you start

35:30

to heal and maybe get into some good

35:32

counseling that can help you peel away

35:34

the the years of lies that he projected

35:36

onto you, because someone

35:39

else's sin is never, ever, ever

35:41

your fault.

35:43

That's an important point. Thank you,

35:45

Denise, so much for being a part of the conversation.

35:47

Beth, you've been so patient in Ohio and I greatly

35:49

appreciate it. Your question please.

35:53

So, um. Someone I love has

35:55

a mother in law who is definitely a narcissist,

35:58

and my heart breaks

36:00

for what she goes through with this, with this

36:02

woman and the little bit of interaction that

36:04

I have with her. She's completely

36:06

exhausting to be around, but

36:09

I don't know if it's like a demonic thing

36:11

or I don't know

36:13

if, um, like, she

36:16

purposely got pregnant at 13 so she

36:18

wouldn't have to move away with her parents.

36:20

And, um, I don't

36:22

know if that was like post-traumatic stress disorder

36:25

that she's experiencing, but

36:28

I feel so badly

36:30

for my. She doesn't the woman doesn't

36:32

talk to the. She was the one that she was pregnant

36:34

with. She was pregnant with a daughter at 13.

36:37

And then years and years later, she had a boy.

36:39

And that's who my niece is now married to.

36:42

Um, but she doesn't even talk to her daughter because

36:44

the daughter puts boundaries.

36:47

Because the grandchildren, she would badmouth

36:49

the mother in front of her grandchildren,

36:51

you know, her own daughter, she would badmouth about.

36:53

So she stopped going over there.

36:56

Wow.

36:57

You hear the music? Beth? Let me put you on hold.

36:59

We'll get Laurel's response to your question

37:01

when we return. Don't forget, I've got a ton

37:03

of information tied to narcissism

37:05

and tied back to Laurel Slade Wagner

37:07

on our information page, go to In the market

37:09

with Janet parshall.org.

37:12

Below the description of the two hours. There's

37:14

a red box. It says program

37:16

head. Think of the color for a minute. Program

37:18

details and audio. Click on. It'll take

37:20

you over to the information page. You'll find all kinds

37:22

of things from Laurel back after this. Laurel

37:29

Slade Wagner is with us. She is a board

37:31

certified Professional Christian counselor in

37:33

Florida, had a private practice there for years,

37:36

and we are dealing with the topic of narcissism,

37:39

which she does so winsomely, by the way,

37:41

through her writing, through her podcasts, and through her

37:43

practice as well. So Beth joined

37:45

us from Ohio, explained her situation to us,

37:47

and really, I think, excuse me, Laurel, this

37:49

all kind of comes down to one question, and this is

37:51

what Beth said to our call screener, is

37:53

demon possession involved in

37:56

the narcissistic world?

37:58

And that's a really great question.

38:01

And so that's why I say she

38:03

can get some help from a pastor. But if

38:05

you even look at scriptures like, um,

38:08

Proverbs 1023,

38:10

I think it is, it says a fool finds pleasure

38:12

in evil conduct, but a man

38:14

of understanding delights in wisdom.

38:17

Uh, or it says another one.

38:19

Proverbs nine seven whoever corrects a mocker

38:22

invites insults. Whoever rebukes

38:24

the wicked incurs abuse.

38:26

And so I think that there's there's

38:29

a lot of wickedness,

38:32

evil foolishness. If you go back and look

38:34

at the original Hebrew language, they're used

38:36

interchangeably throughout the Old

38:38

Testament. And so, uh,

38:40

whether it's demonic possession

38:43

or not, you can first,

38:45

you look for mental mental

38:47

health disorders that you can recognize.

38:50

Um, if not, you can't. There

38:52

are people who, um,

38:54

perform therapy where

38:56

they're actually calling out the demons.

38:59

So you could do both to see

39:01

what is going on. I mean, we do

39:03

I do believe in spiritual warfare. I do believe

39:06

that demons are still around.

39:08

There's nothing in the Bible that says that they have gone

39:10

away. So that's a

39:12

that's a very complicated question

39:15

to answer because I think we just

39:17

don't we don't know oftentimes

39:19

what we're dealing with. But we can do a

39:21

lot of research and, and go to

39:23

a lot of different kinds of professionals to rule

39:25

some things out.

39:27

Always hope, always hope. As

39:29

Laurel said, thank you, Beth, so much. I'm going to linger in

39:31

the Buckeye State. Matt, thanks for joining us.

39:33

Your question please.

39:35

All right. Thanks for taking my call.

39:37

Mhm.

39:38

So, um, when

39:40

I was a child, I grew up with a,

39:42

uh, anxiety condition called OCD.

39:45

And years later I

39:47

realized, uh, it's a disability.

39:50

Um, but until I found out that

39:52

diagnosed, um, you

39:55

know, my mother was a narcissist

39:57

or is a narcissist and

39:59

basically made me feel like, you know,

40:01

I was less than less than a person.

40:04

So the question I

40:06

have is for people with these type

40:08

of conditions, how

40:10

they're not really the best with

40:12

stress in the first place. Do

40:15

you think it's just best

40:17

that they pretty

40:19

much walk away, uh, from

40:22

narcissists and their family?

40:25

Um, and the big things that I struggle

40:27

with are how to balance. You

40:29

have gluttony. You have

40:31

in the Bible. You have, you know, wicked people.

40:34

And then you also have the idea

40:37

of, uh, loving your fellow

40:39

man. Right? So

40:41

if you're able to kind of take,

40:43

you know, what I just put out there

40:46

and share your thoughts

40:49

about it.

40:50

Oh.

40:51

I would say, first and foremost, I want

40:53

you to understand that there are byproducts

40:56

to living with someone who's narcissistic,

40:58

especially a narcissistic parent. So the fact

41:00

that you have OCD,

41:03

that is not your

41:05

fault. It is your responsibility to manage

41:07

the symptoms as an adult. Um, but

41:09

it's not your fault. So it's very

41:12

common for people who grow up with especially

41:14

a perfect perfectionistic narcissist

41:17

to have OCD, anxiety

41:19

disorders, clinical depression,

41:21

PTSD symptoms, hypervigilance,

41:24

different things like that. Um, when

41:26

you say walk away. I'm

41:29

all about using the

41:31

redemptive tool of separation. And

41:33

and you start small and you keep adding

41:36

more and more separation as

41:38

need be so that you're

41:40

not becoming more symptomatic and

41:43

your mother is not

41:45

overpowering you. If

41:47

she's causing you a lot of guilt, a

41:49

lot of fear, a lot of anxiousness, then you need

41:51

to add more separation until

41:54

you get to that place of being able to

41:56

experience increasing

41:58

peace. So and that

42:00

is loving her. So it's loving.

42:03

Like Janet was saying, Jesus

42:05

was very, very assertive. He

42:07

didn't get into long, divisive

42:09

arguments with people. He talked very

42:12

curtly to people

42:14

who were opposing him. And he also

42:16

used that that redemptive tool

42:18

of separation. God himself

42:21

says that he is far

42:23

from the proud. He's far

42:26

from the wicked. He he separates

42:28

himself. He never we're not

42:31

ever out of his love, but he does

42:33

pull back his presence. If someone

42:35

doesn't want anything to do with him,

42:38

and your mom doesn't want anything

42:40

to do with the real you, she wants

42:42

everything to do with the you. That

42:44

is an extension of her. And

42:46

so you can use that

42:48

redemptive tool of separation with

42:51

confidence that that's out

42:53

of love, Matt. That's not

42:55

out of punishment. That's out of love. Not only

42:58

love for yourself, love for God

43:00

because you're being obedient to the scriptures, but

43:02

also love for her.

43:04

Well.

43:05

And I loved the tenderness

43:07

in your question, Matt. Trying to balance

43:09

this idea between you didn't use the word, but if

43:11

you don't mind, I'll superimpose it. Boundaries

43:13

and loving people as if it were

43:15

an either or proposition. And Laurel, I think

43:17

you just beautifully responded to that, which is

43:20

it's a both end. Sometimes

43:22

the most loving thing you can do is to put in a boundary.

43:24

But boy Council,

43:26

Matt, I hope that was an overflowing cup of encouragement

43:28

to you, and I thank you so much for being a part of this

43:30

conversation. I have so many people online,

43:33

let me just see if I can quickly get in one more question

43:35

before the end of the show. Karen, you're in

43:37

Florida. Thanks so much. Your question for Laurel.

43:41

Yes, Laurel, thank.

43:42

You for taking my call. Um, I

43:45

am a recent, um, I

43:47

recently had a divorce, and we share a

43:49

child together, my ex and I, and,

43:52

um, post the divorce, I

43:54

it's basically been experiencing,

43:57

um, less and less contact

44:00

from him. Um, with regards

44:02

to communicating with my son and

44:05

and I feel terrible.

44:08

I, I don't know

44:10

how to necessarily,

44:12

um, you know, stay

44:14

in the positive side of it without

44:17

being super,

44:20

um, um, you

44:22

know, being negative.

44:24

Karen, let me stop you there. And I don't mean

44:26

to, but I'm going to slam up against a heartbreak, and I so

44:28

want Laurel to respond. So basically, Laurel, the question

44:30

is, Karen wants to know how she can help her son

44:32

come to terms with her

44:35

narcissistic ex-husband. What would you say?

44:37

And I got 30s.

44:38

Oh, there's a lot of that in the

44:40

book. Don't let the crazy make your kids crazy.

44:43

Um, just teaching him about

44:45

healthy relating, teaching

44:47

him about different concepts like

44:49

boundaries and triangulation

44:51

and the redemptive tool of separation. All of

44:54

that will be very, very helpful.

44:56

The more you can do proactively, the less you're going

44:58

to have to do reactively later.

45:00

And Karen, please forgive me for having to

45:02

put you on hold as we rapidly draw

45:04

up to the last 20s of the program. So

45:07

go to the website. You'll see her books there in

45:09

the market with Janet parshall.org.

45:11

Click on the red box that says Program Details

45:13

and Audio. It'll get you in the information page.

45:16

And there are Laurel's books. Blessings to

45:18

you. Hope you've all been encouraged. Thank you so much,

45:20

Laurel. We'll see you next time.