0:00

Hi there, I am thrilled you are downloading

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this podcast and it is my hope and

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my prayer that you're going to hear something that's going to change

0:06

you, encourage you, edify, equip you,

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and then get you out there into the marketplace

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of ideas where you can let your light so shine

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for him. But before you go, just a

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minute. Can I talk to you one second about this month's

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Truth tool? I love it, I love the title, I

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love the author. It's called How to Talk About Jesus

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without Looking like an Idiot. Hello. How

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many of us feel that? How many of us panic?

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We don't want to talk about Jesus. We're afraid

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we're going to be marginalized. We're going to look stupid.

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We know that it's tough to talk about faith in

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this cancel woke culture. But

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you know what? We're told to go. Jesus knows

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the culture we live in, but we're told to go

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and tell. And that's what this book does

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in the most pragmatic way. This brilliant

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man, Andy Bannister, who really

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and truly understands apologetics, teaches

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us how to step into natural, fearless,

0:50

effortless conversations to share

0:52

the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

0:54

I don't know about you, but none of us is ever too

0:56

old to learn how to do this, because the

0:58

directive to go and tell has never changed.

1:01

That's for every single one of us.

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So I really encourage you this month,

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get a copy of How to Talk About Jesus Without

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Janet 58 877

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Scroll to the bottom of the page and that's all you do

2:21

now. Please enjoy the broadcast.

2:24

Here are some of the news headlines we're watching. This time.

2:26

The conference was over. The president won a pledge.

2:28

Americans worshiping government over God.

2:30

Extremely rare safety move by

2:33

a major 17 years.

2:34

The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated

2:36

a divorce. Tax is not an

2:39

option.

2:52

Hi friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet

2:54

Parshall. Thanks so much for spending the hour

2:56

with us. Well, it wasn't

2:59

about just acknowledging,

3:01

it was about accepting. It was about

3:03

acquiescing. It was about affirming.

3:06

And it doesn't look like it's going to go away

3:08

any time soon. I am, of course, speaking

3:10

about the LGBT. And I'll

3:12

stop there with the letters, because apparently

3:14

it's going on forever.

3:16

I don't even know what a two spirit is, but it's

3:19

in there somewhere, apparently now. And

3:21

so if you look at the tip of the spear that's headed

3:23

right at the front door of the church, the church, quite

3:25

frankly, capital C, universal needs to be

3:27

prepared. Are they? I think not.

3:29

So there's all kinds of questions the church is

3:31

having to deal with in these latter

3:33

days. When good is called evil, evil is called good.

3:35

And yeah, you get it. Men and women are doing

3:37

what's right in their own eyes. And

3:40

the target is the church. Why? Because

3:42

the church is the last bastion of.

3:44

No, not because we

3:46

said no, but because if we live by

3:48

the book, we are according to the rest

3:51

of the world, the people who hate us called

3:53

people of the book. That's right.

3:55

So if God says

3:57

that marriage is made up of one

3:59

man and one woman, and only within

4:01

the parameters of that institution which

4:03

he put in a place of perfection,

4:05

so he designed it, he instituted

4:07

it, he created it. The book starts with the marriage.

4:09

It ends with the marriage. That modality is

4:12

affirmed throughout. Christ is even called

4:14

the bridegroom. And we, the church,

4:16

are called the bride, thinking it's pretty important to God

4:18

and you decide to say, no, I

4:21

there isn't a re-election here. There isn't

4:23

going to be a recall election. God

4:25

has already handed down his opinion. Thus

4:28

saith the Lord, and the church is the one who keeps saying,

4:30

sorry. Love you. You're welcome.

4:32

Take a seat. We're going to love you, but we're

4:34

not going to leave you where you are. We're going to preach the

4:36

whole counsel of God, line upon line, precept

4:38

upon precept. But thus saith

4:40

the Lord. Now what happens when

4:43

the church has to respond? That's a hugely important

4:45

question. Well, thank God for my long

4:47

time friend Joe Dallas, who's an author,

4:50

a speaker, and a counselor who speaks nationwide.

4:52

He founded Genesis Counseling and

4:54

Cloud Fire Ministries. He's the author

4:57

of nine books on human sexuality, all

4:59

from a Christian perspective, uh,

5:01

including, by the way, the best Seller

5:03

Desires in Conflict and the Gay Gospel

5:06

Question Mark. His articles have

5:08

been featured in Christianity Today, The Journal

5:10

of Psychology and Christianity and the stream.

5:12

But he came up with a brilliant idea not

5:15

too long ago where he literally said, pastors,

5:17

church leaders, let's gather together once

5:19

a month. Let me talk to you. Let me tell you what

5:21

I know somebody who deals in this area, somebody who came

5:23

out of this lifestyle. Let's walk

5:25

through this reason together, as the Scripture says.

5:28

And then I'm going to open it up and I'm going to let you ask

5:30

questions. And this happens on a once

5:32

a month basis. And quite frankly,

5:34

it is exploding. That's how many pastors

5:36

want to get answers. So I love to check in with Joe

5:39

on a regular basis. Get some of these questions

5:41

answered. Even if you're not a lay leader,

5:43

but you go to a church, you're somehow involved

5:45

in church leadership. These are the kinds of questions

5:48

you are wrestling with in your church. You

5:50

want to know how to respond, and you want

5:52

to know how to do it in a way in which you speak the

5:54

truth, but you do it in a loving fashion. So

5:56

you're going to get a sample of that. When we talk to Joe today,

5:58

but also particularly for those who are in ministry,

6:01

I want to encourage you if you are a pastor

6:03

or a ministry leader, this is A1A

6:05

once a month experience called The Challenge,

6:08

and it's subtitled Effective Pastoral

6:10

Strategies for Ministry to LGBTQ.

6:13

Joe, the Warmest of Welcomes. I have so many

6:15

questions I want to ask you, and so much to get caught up on.

6:17

When last we met sounding

6:19

like a serialized TV show.

6:22

You were telling.

6:23

Me how many countries, not just

6:25

churches, how many countries had showed up?

6:27

It's been 30 days hence. Tell me

6:29

what is going on with the challenge and are

6:32

you seeing more and more people decide to be

6:34

a part of this?

6:36

Sure, Janet. Uh, well, we've got,

6:38

uh, oh, upwards of 330

6:40

pastors. I think more than that by now,

6:42

we're we're, uh, talking with

6:44

people from at least

6:47

13 different countries and

6:49

again, probably more. It's been a couple

6:51

of weeks since I checked all the stats on

6:53

it. But, uh, you know,

6:55

pastors are, just, as you said, concerned

6:57

because a whole new set of challenges

7:00

have have come up. And it

7:02

reminds me of acts 15. You know, you remember

7:04

the the Jerusalem Council was faced with

7:06

a new challenge. They were saying, well,

7:09

we've got people now coming into the faith

7:11

and or people inquiring about the

7:13

faith, and there are a whole new set of ethical

7:15

issues that we're having to wrestle with.

7:17

Now, the difference there,

7:20

of course, Janet, is, uh, Gentiles

7:22

are Gentiles by the will

7:24

of God. People that the race that

7:26

they are born into is what God intended.

7:29

I am not saying that is the same as

7:31

someone who is attracted to the same sex, but

7:33

the similarity is that there

7:36

is a new set of people

7:38

coming to the church with questions,

7:41

with desires, sometimes even with demands.

7:43

And we are having to meet the challenge

7:45

of ministering to and answering to

7:47

all of them. And that's the challenge pastors have

7:49

today. That's one of the reasons I've

7:52

loved, uh, taking the time once a month

7:54

to talk with pastors about

7:56

these, these specific challenges

7:58

and, and, uh, develop biblical

8:00

policies and solutions for

8:03

some of the problems that the challenges are bringing

8:06

up. Yeah.

8:06

Policies and solutions. Two very important

8:08

words, by the way, anyone who fits that

8:10

criteria as someone who's involved in ministry

8:13

or a pastor, I've got a link on our information

8:15

page. You can click on through, you can sign up, and

8:17

you can get the schedule and become a part of

8:19

these once a month meetings where

8:22

the time has come to really look well to the

8:24

ways of your household. And what I find

8:26

interesting, Joe, is that we're going to get into some of these questions,

8:28

and they're sometimes theological questions that have

8:30

a policy application, but there are likewise

8:33

legal questions, because very often and

8:35

you think there's a hedge of protection because you're a church

8:37

and you got that 500 1C3 status. And

8:39

boy, I tell you what, the moat's not going down

8:41

and you're protected. Think again.

8:43

Okay, there are forces afoot who are aggressively

8:46

trying to make sure that those protections never

8:48

get afforded to you as a church.

8:50

So legal protections have to be in place

8:52

as well as policy decisions as well,

8:55

just as kind of flyover. What is the biggest,

8:57

most, if there is in fact

8:59

a most redundant question

9:01

that you hear on these calls, what

9:03

do you think it is?

9:05

Uh, it would be, hey, what do I say when people

9:07

say, is your church gay friendly?

9:11

Are you people gay friendly?

9:13

I mean, more and more pastors are getting

9:15

calls from people who are saying we'd

9:17

like to visit, but I

9:19

am married to a partner of the same sex, and

9:22

we want to know if we'd be welcomed there. Or my

9:24

son is gay and I want to make sure he's not going

9:26

to be judged, or even young people

9:28

who are saying, are you progressive

9:30

enough that you are gay affirming,

9:33

or are you gay friendly? And in

9:35

response, I mean, I think

9:37

the knee jerk response we would have is,

9:39

well, I mean, we're we're people friendly,

9:42

but that doesn't mean we affirm

9:44

all behaviors. Everyone's welcome.

9:46

Everything won't be affirmed.

9:48

Let me ask you to build on that, Joe, when we come

9:50

back, because if that's the most frequent question.

9:52

And by the way, first Samuel says, man looks

9:54

on the outward appearance, God looks on the heart. Might

9:56

be a sincere question. I would also tell you,

9:58

being in Washington, sometimes it's a bait and trap, so

10:01

you need to have a prepared

10:03

response for that kind of a question. So

10:05

let's dig into that a little bit more. Joe Dallas

10:07

is with us. I want to encourage you, if you're a

10:09

pastor or a ministry leader, to be

10:11

on these once a month. Phone calls called the challenge

10:14

with Joe Dallas back after this. What

10:22

are our biggest fears when it comes to sharing the gospel?

10:24

How can we overcome what stops us? That's

10:26

why I've chosen how to talk about Jesus without

10:28

looking like an idiot. As this month's truth tool,

10:30

learn how to fearlessly bring faith into the conversation.

10:33

As for your copy of How to Talk About Jesus without

10:35

looking like an idiot, when you give a gift of any amount

10:38

to in the market, call 877 Janet

10:40

58. That's 877 Janet 58

10:42

or go to in the market with Janet parshall.org.

10:47

So such important conversation. I am

10:49

so grateful for Joe Dallas and he's being

10:51

very much a redeemer of the times.

10:54

So all of the work that he's done for

10:56

not years but decades on this

10:58

subject of sexuality in the church,

11:01

as an author, as a speaker and as a counselor,

11:03

I'm so appreciative of the fact that he really wants

11:05

to get resources in people's hands

11:07

that there's so much sort of feeling your way in

11:10

the dark, trying to figure out how you handle

11:12

this onslaught of challenges to the church,

11:14

both legally and theologically, by the way.

11:16

So he came up with this brilliant idea of a once

11:18

a month phone call. And as he said before, over 330

11:21

plus pastors, reps from

11:23

over 13 countries around the world

11:25

coming and asking questions, and the most

11:28

often asked question, which was the one I just

11:30

asked Joe about, is this are

11:32

you a gay friendly church? So

11:34

let me go back to this, Joe, because you

11:36

said that you're a people friendly church,

11:38

but that requires a little

11:40

bit more exegesis. Not because

11:43

you didn't answer well, but because I want people to really

11:45

chew on this, to understand what

11:47

that question means theologically.

11:49

So can you tell me a little bit more about

11:51

that question? Gets asked, how in the world do

11:53

you answer it?

11:55

Yeah, we're a people friendly church

11:57

means that all people are

11:59

welcome to attend. But

12:01

the truth that we teach

12:04

will not please all people,

12:06

but all people are welcome to come, whether

12:08

they agree or disagree. More to

12:10

the point, I compare it to the invitation

12:13

to Christ, the gospel invitation. The

12:15

invitation is inclusive.

12:17

It includes everyone. Whosoever will may

12:19

come. The terms are

12:21

exclusive. There is one way to

12:23

salvation and there is one

12:26

walk in response to salvation.

12:29

If you want to be saved, everyone

12:31

is welcome to. But there is only one way to

12:33

be saved. You must come through Christ. If you

12:35

come through Christ, then if you're going to follow

12:37

him, you must deny yourself, take

12:39

up your cross and follow him. So

12:42

the invitation is open to everyone. But

12:44

the way is very narrow and very exclusive

12:46

in that sense. And the same thing with attending our churches.

12:49

Anybody who wants to attend is welcome. However,

12:51

what we teach and preach will be a truth

12:54

which is black and white on all

12:56

human issues and social issues.

12:59

So if you want to attend,

13:01

you're welcome. Now the question becomes,

13:04

are you gay friendly? Meaning that anybody can

13:06

become a member? No, that's that's not true.

13:08

The only people who can become members

13:10

of a church would be people

13:12

who are ready and willing

13:15

to submit themselves to the authority of

13:17

the Word of God and to the

13:19

authority of the church. And

13:21

that would include, of course, submission of

13:23

their sexual behavior and of their

13:25

relationships. So there is a

13:27

difference between membership and attendance. Number

13:30

one. And number two, there's a difference

13:32

between being inclusive

13:34

in your invitation to people, but

13:36

exclusive in the truth you teach.

13:39

So out of this, I think, necessarily

13:41

flows the question about not

13:43

the seeker who calls and says,

13:45

are you gay friendly, but

13:48

rather the church who decides

13:50

of their own volition to quote, be

13:52

gay friendly. Enter what is called

13:55

plan B. Now, if you can explain

13:57

to our friends what that means. This is

13:59

a, quote, gay affirming

14:01

church. What does that mean

14:03

and why is that so problematic?

14:06

Well, to be a gay affirming

14:08

church, you have to be a church

14:10

which has revised

14:12

our understanding of very clear

14:14

biblical prohibitions against homosexuality

14:17

and very clear biblical standards and definitions

14:19

of marriage. So,

14:22

to put it plainly, to be gay affirming,

14:24

um, you have to be practicing

14:27

what I would call heresy.

14:29

And that is the teaching that,

14:32

um, the Bible condones

14:34

homosexuality and that the Bible

14:37

has a broader definition

14:39

of God's, um, uh,

14:41

sense of marriage than

14:44

what we have traditionally thought it to be.

14:46

And I use the word heresy, Janet, because I

14:48

strongly believe that, you know,

14:50

it is immoral to engage

14:52

in sexual behavior outside the will of God,

14:55

but it is heretical to teach

14:57

that immoral behavior is condoned

14:59

by God. And by the way,

15:02

uh, you know, I don't have any stones to throw on

15:04

this. I'm only saying what is true.

15:06

But when it comes to throwing the

15:08

rocks, I got to put mine down because I preached that

15:10

myself for years when I was on

15:12

staff with the Gay Affirming Church back in the late

15:14

70s, early 80s. So I'm not I'm

15:17

not sitting here in a holier than thou position.

15:19

I'm only saying plainly, I'll go to

15:21

my. A grave where I'll go to the Lord's coming,

15:23

regretting those years

15:26

that I taught that. Yeah. Um. But

15:28

the fact remains, it is heretical.

15:30

And it's a very serious error to take the

15:32

gay affirming position.

15:34

So and I misspoke

15:36

before. It's not plan B, it's side

15:39

B if I'm going to use the proper language.

15:41

And yeah, and.

15:42

The idea here is that somehow and

15:44

this is the church. And the reason I asked this is because

15:46

you can't just be answering questions. You

15:48

also must be cleaning up some cloudy

15:51

theological thinking. So this is how will I deal

15:53

with side B is basically that

15:55

homosexual attraction is not

15:57

sinful. Now people might be saying, oh, you're really getting

15:59

into how the sausage is made, but I think this

16:01

is hugely important.

16:03

Yeah, you know what? Now that's an important one.

16:05

That's a whole new movement we're facing too. So

16:07

like I said, these are all these new, uh,

16:09

trends and definitions and whatnot.

16:11

Okay. Side A and side B, more and more

16:13

pastors are hearing that now.

16:15

Uh, side A, which

16:17

is a pro-gay position, would be the position

16:20

that embraces a pro-gay interpretation of the Bible.

16:22

Homosexuality is okay and God's

16:24

sight. Side B would

16:26

be a new group of people who call themselves gay

16:29

Christians, but who say, well, homosexuality

16:31

is a sin and I do not

16:33

practice that sin, but

16:36

I am still gay because

16:38

I feel sexual attraction to the same

16:40

sex, and that is my identity. I

16:42

am thereby. And here we have a whole new set

16:44

of terms. I am a sexual minority

16:47

within the church. If

16:49

I do marry someone of the opposite sex,

16:52

it is what we call a mixed orientation

16:54

marriage. And if I

16:56

opt for celibacy, I may

16:58

establish what I call a spiritual

17:00

friendship with one person of the same

17:03

sex. We will not be a

17:05

couple sexually, but

17:07

we will be two people of the same sex who

17:09

are deeply committed to each other.

17:12

And I think you can see, even as I describe

17:14

that, how problematic that becomes, because

17:16

it basically puts, um,

17:18

a, a category

17:20

on a person's status based on their

17:22

sexual temptations.

17:24

And I don't think, first

17:27

of all, I think that is a segue into

17:29

eventually legitimizing the expression

17:31

of those temptations. But even

17:33

if not, I believe it limits

17:36

the person by defining him or

17:38

her according to the sinful temptations

17:40

they feel. And,

17:42

uh, Janet, if I had done that or believed

17:44

that when I repented of

17:46

homosexuality, I would have never

17:48

gone on into the marriage that

17:51

I've enjoyed for 37 years. And the two

17:53

grown sons that I've had the joy of raising.

17:55

Wow.

17:56

Joe Dallas is with us. Such an important conversation.

17:58

Now you can see how personally grateful I am

18:00

for his friendship all these years. He's this beautiful

18:03

mix of truth and love.

18:05

Not an either or proposition, but

18:07

he is unashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

18:09

And he also comes from that place of being

18:11

the wounded comforter. So he really

18:13

understands the challenges, the desires

18:16

and conflict, etc. and I think he's the

18:18

perfect person to be holding these once

18:20

a month, once a month phone calls back after this.

18:26

We're visiting with Joe Dallas, who's an author,

18:28

speaker and counselor. He speaks nationwide.

18:31

He founded Genesis Counseling and

18:33

Cloud Fire Ministries, the author of multiple books

18:35

on human sexuality, all from

18:37

a Christian perspective. He came up with this brilliant

18:40

idea called The Challenge,

18:42

where he invites pastors and ministry

18:44

leaders to gather via zoom call once

18:46

a month and boitier they're

18:48

calling in like crazy. Over 330

18:50

plus pastors are now participating.

18:52

Over 13 countries have weighed in.

18:54

Which reminds you that a the

18:57

writer of Ecclesiastes was spot on. There's

18:59

nothing new under the sun, and b that

19:01

sin knows no geographical boundaries. So these

19:03

challenges are in fact global. And I'm

19:05

so very grateful that Joe came up with this idea

19:07

and he's answering these kinds of questions. So

19:10

just to kind of put a capstone on what we were saying

19:12

before, the problem sometimes isn't

19:14

just showing up at the front door with the challenge.

19:16

Sometimes it's the church that's lost its

19:18

theological moorings and is drifting

19:21

under the guise of thinking that somehow

19:23

that love conquers all.

19:25

And if we just say, you know,

19:27

um, as long as you're not acting on it when

19:29

you were talking before, forgive me, Joe, but I'm just a little

19:31

old Bible church Sunday school kid. And

19:34

I was thinking, man, when I grew up, I was

19:36

remember reading things like flee Temptation

19:38

and that if a man looks at a woman and

19:40

lusts in his heart, he's already committed. So how

19:42

do you put yourself in a faithful

19:44

same sex relationship? But you don't have sex, but

19:47

somehow that's okay. I mean, that doesn't make

19:49

any sense at all.

19:50

Yeah, I think it is a

19:52

reaction to

19:55

what people might have considered either

19:57

abuses in the past from some

19:59

Christian leaders or approaches

20:01

that they didn't approve of. A lot of people

20:03

who are part of the LGBTQ community.

20:06

And I agree with you, Janet. The letters keep getting

20:08

added on, so I can't keep up with it myself.

20:10

But, uh, we'll say,

20:13

well, I used to be a part of the church, but,

20:15

uh, the church was very unloving to the

20:17

church, you know, told me that I had to

20:19

repent. And if I stood on my head and swallowed

20:22

raw eggs, I'd go straight or I mean, just something

20:24

completely ludicrous. And

20:26

so in response, some people are saying, look,

20:28

just if people will abstain from

20:30

homosexuality, let them call themselves

20:32

gay and let them just admit

20:34

that those feelings will always be there and they

20:36

will exist as a sort of noble,

20:39

celibate minority within

20:41

the church. Now, I

20:43

don't want to predict to people what the outcome

20:45

is going to be if they abandon homosexual

20:47

sin. Because, Janet, you and I both know when

20:49

when we repent of a sin,

20:52

we are not guaranteed that

20:54

all temptation towards that sin we've

20:56

repented of will be eliminated. But

20:58

people will experience different degrees

21:01

of freedom from the temptation, and

21:03

or they will be given the strength they need

21:05

to say no to it. But one thing we don't do

21:07

is identify ourselves by the temptation.

21:10

We don't identify by the sins of the flesh.

21:12

We crucify the sins of the flesh. And

21:15

that's maybe my biggest objection to this whole

21:17

side B Christianity movement

21:19

is people are

21:21

basically adopting a label

21:24

that solidifies an ungodly

21:26

tendency in their lives, rather

21:28

than seeing the tendencies

21:31

they have as temptations, they resist, but

21:33

their identity as being something

21:35

broader and more biblical than that. When I

21:37

repented, for example, of homosexuality,

21:40

I still had strong homosexual desires.

21:43

But, uh, it was very

21:45

plain to me. I was never to call myself

21:47

gay. I was henceforth to be

21:49

a born again new creature in Christ

21:52

who had temptations, some

21:54

of which were homosexual. And

21:56

in my case I have found that

21:58

they have faded and faded and

22:00

faded until now they're a very distant memory.

22:03

I'd never be naive enough to say I could never

22:05

be tempted again. I don't think that's

22:07

realistic, but there's certainly not a

22:09

part of my life at this time. Now, other

22:11

people have had different outcomes where they've repented

22:13

of that sin, and they still feel

22:15

very strong temptations on a regular basis.

22:18

And that doesn't mean one of us is better than the

22:20

other or godlier than the other. I've got

22:22

a thousand other temptations that are downright

22:24

creepy in my life right now, that I wish I

22:26

could get rid of them all, but they are there

22:28

so I can be as big a jerk as anybody

22:31

else. I know the flesh is still

22:33

the flesh, and we have to deal with temptations of

22:35

the old nature no matter what. But I guess my point

22:37

is, we do not categorize

22:40

ourselves by the temptations

22:42

of the flesh. We renounce

22:44

and crucify the flesh. We identify ourselves

22:46

biblically as new creatures in Christ,

22:49

and then we can be honest about whatever

22:51

temptations we have and deal with them accordingly.

22:54

The whole time you were talking, I just can't

22:56

tell you how many times in my head, over and over and

22:58

over again. Galatians 220 I have been

23:00

crucified with Christ. It is

23:02

no longer I who live, but Christ lives

23:04

in me, and the life I now live in the flesh. I

23:06

live by faith in the Son of God, who

23:08

loved me and gave himself for me. Why would

23:10

I want to come anywhere near the sins or the temptations?

23:13

That's the last thing I want to be identified

23:15

as. I want to be identified. Galatians

23:17

220 in Him not by

23:19

my temptations and my sin, old things

23:21

have passed away all. All things have become new, I

23:23

would think we'd want to put that in the rear view mirror.

23:27

We should again if we're thinking

23:29

biblically. But I really think again,

23:31

Janet, this is a case of the world

23:33

being influenced or excuse me, the church

23:35

being influenced by the world.

23:37

The world is strongly telling

23:40

the church what we should or should not say.

23:42

And I think that this whole side B,

23:44

side A Christianity is

23:46

an example of people within the church

23:48

scrambling away to try to find

23:50

a way to appease the world

23:53

while still holding on to some semblance

23:55

of biblical Christianity. And whenever

23:57

you're approaching ethics that way, you're going

23:59

to get it wrong.

24:01

Well, first Kings 18

24:03

I mean, Elijah looks at the prophets of Baal and

24:05

says, how long are you going to limp between two opinions?

24:08

This is 21st century limping in the

24:10

church, is it not?

24:11

Oh, I think it absolutely is.

24:13

And I've said all along, Janet, I think worldliness

24:16

has been one of the biggest problems we faced

24:18

in dealing with this issue. Back when I was a kid

24:20

and when I was even a new Christian, I

24:22

think the worldly attitude towards homosexuals

24:25

was unbridled contempt. They're

24:27

queers, they're freaks, they're pansies, they're

24:29

degenerates, they're no good. And

24:32

I think the church was largely tainted by

24:34

that worldly attitude. Now

24:36

that the world has become gay affirming, the church

24:38

is still being tainted by the worldly attitude.

24:41

Except now it's gay affirming, you see.

24:43

Yeah, that's an excellent point.

24:45

So many more questions I want to ask. Joe Dallas

24:47

is with us again. This is a man who's been

24:49

ministering and counseling in this area on sexuality

24:52

for years and years and years, speaks

24:54

all over the globe, came up with this brilliant

24:56

idea called The Challenge, which is a once

24:58

a month zoom call where pastors

25:00

and ministry leaders gather together.

25:03

They get their questions answered, and they have this conversation

25:05

among themselves about policies

25:07

and protections they need to put in place for the church.

25:09

I have a link on my info page because if you're a ministry

25:12

leader or a pastor, you might want to check

25:14

this out more with Joe Dallas right after this.

25:27

There are dozens of talk shows that address politics,

25:29

culture and technology, but in the market is

25:31

committed to bringing biblical truths to every

25:34

facet of life. When you financially support

25:36

in the market as a partial partner, you're helping

25:38

people to better understand how their faith intersects

25:40

with their daily lives. Become a partial

25:42

partner today and receive exclusive benefits

25:45

prepared just for you. Call 877

25:47

Janet, 58 or go online to in

25:49

the market with Janet parshall.org.

25:53

Always a delight to spend time with. Joe Dallas

25:55

author, speaker, counselor talks

25:58

all over the country, founded Genesis

26:00

Counseling and Cloud Fire Ministries,

26:02

written multiple books on human sexuality,

26:04

best sellers like Desires and Conflict

26:07

The Gay gospel question Mark

26:09

and his work can be featured in places

26:11

like Christianity Today, the Journal of Psychology

26:13

and Christianity and the stream. So

26:16

he came up with this brilliant idea not too long

26:18

ago to pull together on a monthly basis,

26:20

pastors and ministry leaders so

26:22

they could address one of the biggest challenges

26:25

in their churches today, and that is how to minister

26:27

to people impacted by homosexuality,

26:29

transgenderism, gender identity issues.

26:31

The list goes on to date, and

26:34

it's growing. And you realize when it's zoom, you could

26:36

have all kinds of people. So there is no cap on this.

26:38

Oh, sorry. All the chairs are filled. Doesn't work that way.

26:40

He's got 330 plus pastors

26:42

so far and reps from over 13

26:45

countries. So I tell you that as an encouragement

26:47

that there are resources out there. Certainly

26:50

one of the jobs of this program is to put the resources

26:52

out there for you so that you know you're not

26:54

alone and that you can tap

26:56

into the wonderful resources that are out there. So I have

26:58

a link on my website so that

27:00

you can sign up for it, and it'll take you right

27:02

to the website. I've also got a link as you can

27:05

follow it through his as well. So

27:07

either way, we've made it real easy for you to go there

27:09

and sign up and to be a part of this monthly phone

27:11

call. So let me linger in the church a

27:13

little bit, because a lot of this, the questions

27:15

are not so unique. It's much

27:17

more kind of revealing the fault

27:19

lines in the church, if you will. So

27:22

obviously there's a lot

27:24

of problems about leadership and discipline in the

27:26

church because, hey, the secular press just waits

27:28

and can't wait to pounce on them and make the lead story

27:30

every night when that happens. So we've got some housework

27:32

to do. But then again, judgment begins. Where?

27:34

Oh yeah, with the church. So what happens

27:36

now when people who are open about

27:39

their same sex attractiveness

27:41

and they want to become members? Now this becomes

27:43

an interesting question. So we've gone from gay

27:45

friendly to now the next question, which is

27:47

now I want to follow

27:50

the directive scripturally and become a member

27:52

of the church. And yet I've started by identifying

27:54

and we'll use your words again, the temptation and

27:57

the sin in my life. And I don't

27:59

show any signs of repenting, so I want to become a

28:01

member. Now, what does the church do?

28:03

Well, of course, even there, we should finesse

28:06

the difference between identifying with

28:08

the sinful tendency versus acting

28:10

on the sinful tendencies across the board.

28:13

I would say no one who is involved in

28:15

unrepentant sexual sin should

28:17

be accepted for membership in the church,

28:19

whether it's heterosexual or homosexual

28:21

in nature. Uh, we know that Paul

28:23

told the Ephesians, uh, Ephesians

28:26

five three that don't ever let fornication

28:28

or any form of uncleanness even be named

28:30

among you as becometh saints. So

28:33

that's kind of a no brainer. Um, I

28:35

think it would be problematic personally

28:38

to accept someone for membership if they're

28:40

saying, well, I abstain from the overt

28:42

sin, but I'm gay, I

28:44

would want to work with them on a better understanding

28:47

of their discipleship. I, I guess

28:49

I would let each pastor decide for themselves

28:51

what where they would draw the line on membership,

28:53

but for me, I would want anyone

28:55

who was joining my church to recognize,

28:58

hey, I my behavior,

29:00

of course, needs to be cleaned up and sanctified. Not

29:02

perfect. We never will be, but certainly separated

29:04

unto God. But so should the way I

29:06

identify myself. And I would be encouraging them

29:08

as a disciple. As a follower of Jesus Christ,

29:11

identify yourself in accordance with

29:13

the with the Word of God,

29:15

not with an area of,

29:17

uh, temptation or even vulnerability

29:20

in your life. But again, I

29:22

want to stress the fact that one of the challenges

29:24

a lot of churches are getting is coming because

29:27

the culture has

29:29

legitimized homosexuality. So

29:32

there was a time, you know, when when,

29:34

uh, both church and culture condemned homosexual

29:36

behavior. Uh, lesbian and gay

29:38

people, by and large, would not have expected the

29:41

church to say, oh, yeah, you can become

29:43

members and become a part of the official life

29:45

of the church. But the culture is

29:47

saying to people, yes, you can

29:49

marry. That is a marriage. And

29:51

yes, that is a legitimate identification

29:54

and way of life. And so,

29:57

just as you were saying, Janet, there are people

29:59

who come to the church to bait the church. And

30:01

I've certainly seen that happen where they do

30:03

a test case thing and say, well, you let me be a

30:05

member. Will you marry us? Will you baptize us?

30:07

And then they go back and either go to the press

30:09

or maybe even file a lawsuit.

30:12

But in other cases, people are very

30:14

innocently thinking, well, everybody

30:16

else says we're legit, will

30:18

you? Yeah. And churches are being

30:21

forced more and more to say, you know, in

30:23

so many words, we are countercultural.

30:26

You know, you are welcome here.

30:28

And we would love to talk to you about why

30:30

we are countercultural, why we believe

30:32

that it is not in your own best interest

30:35

to be expressing yourself sexually in

30:37

this way. And we'd love to dialogue with you about

30:39

that. And we certainly hope that you'll keep attending. But

30:41

no, membership is not an option

30:44

if your life is not being lived in submission

30:46

to the revealed Word of God. That's

30:48

the bottom line.

30:50

Excellent answer. So let me come at it. A. Other

30:52

way for the person who just hit the brake stuck in rush

30:54

hour traffic going whoa whoa whoa whoa. Let me push back on

30:56

this. So the person's particular

30:59

sin happens to be homosexuality.

31:01

What if a person decided to be?

31:03

I mean, I think the philosophical argument

31:05

for the pushback would be, well, you're not going

31:07

to have non sinners become members of your

31:09

church. Every single person who's going to apply

31:11

for membership is going to be a sinner.

31:13

So why are you again, see,

31:15

this is the church. You make too big a thing out of this

31:17

same sex attraction stuff. You're not doing it with something

31:20

else. So what if a person was a serial

31:22

adulterer, or he was a person who was addicted

31:24

to pornography, but they don't make

31:26

the proclamation? And again, here's an interesting distinction.

31:29

People in those latter two categories don't tend to proclaim

31:32

people in the first category of same sex attraction.

31:34

Use it as a moniker, so that

31:36

becomes a distinctive. But what about the pushback

31:38

that says, wait, you only take non sinners

31:41

as your members? So how do you respond?

31:43

Well, of course, if we only take

31:45

non sinners as our members watch

31:47

our membership rolls and shrink

31:50

down to nothing.

31:51

Of course we have.

31:53

I'm the first one who's going to get banned from

31:55

the church if that's the case.

31:57

No.

31:57

Look, we're. But and but we're not making

31:59

the distinction. First of all, we're not asking for perfection.

32:02

We're asking for obedience. This

32:04

is sort of like, just think about the marriage vows, Janet,

32:06

when when we marry our spouses, we

32:08

don't say we don't stand at the altar and say,

32:11

Will you be perfect and thereby

32:13

worthy of me? But there are some

32:15

things that we absolutely expect. You will

32:17

forsake all others and be faithful

32:20

to me. Yeah, duh. Uh, that

32:22

doesn't mean I'm asking for perfection from my spouse.

32:24

That does mean I'm asking for fidelity. Yes,

32:27

and I think that it's reasonable to ask for that.

32:29

The same with the church. We we do expect

32:31

that people will abstain from overt expressions

32:34

of sexual sin. We do not

32:36

limit that to homosexuality, though. I mean,

32:38

if people were living together apart from marriage,

32:41

if people were involved in prostitution,

32:43

if people were involved in any

32:45

form of sexual overt behavior

32:48

with other people, that was outside

32:50

the will of God and against the the definition

32:53

of marriage. No. And in fact,

32:55

I mean, if somebody said even

32:57

that they use pornography,

32:59

I would want to know that they

33:01

have repented of that if they

33:03

struggle with it and God forbid, but

33:05

if they relapsed into it, that to me is

33:07

not going to be a disqualifier. But I would

33:09

need to know that they view that as a

33:11

sin they have renounced rather than

33:13

something they have accepted and embraced.

33:16

Yeah.

33:16

So let me dig a little deeper, and I appreciate

33:19

this conversation so much, Joe, because it's

33:21

causing us to have to think biblically

33:23

and critically. And I think these

33:25

latter days require us to do just

33:27

that. So we have to test all things like good

33:29

Bereans. So move from membership

33:31

and move to some of the things that we hold

33:33

sacred in the church. So a person

33:35

comes in and this is where there's a there has to be

33:37

a prelude here. And I want you to address the prelude

33:39

as well as the core of the question. So

33:42

a person has identified

33:44

as gay attracted okay,

33:46

same sex attracted. But they want to

33:48

be baptized. They want to participate

33:51

in communion again. First Samuel

33:53

says, hey, I can't see what's going on in your heart. Man

33:55

looks on the outward appearance. God looks on the heart.

33:57

There has to be a self proclamation

34:00

in order for there to be the sticky wicket.

34:02

And the question that the church has to deal with. So

34:05

talk to me about the prelude first.

34:07

I mean, if someone doesn't make the proclamation,

34:10

how would someone in leadership at the church know

34:12

before they baptize them or before they

34:14

said, participate in communion? And then

34:16

if the proclamation has been made, what

34:18

should the response be for things like communion and

34:21

baptism?

34:22

Yeah, those are two primary sacraments communion

34:24

and baptism. Um, it

34:26

is, of course, easier to determine someone's

34:29

status of behavior prior to

34:31

baptism, because usually we have baptism

34:33

classes where there's a little more extensive

34:36

talk about how the person is living.

34:39

Uh, and in those cases, we do

34:41

ask people about their life, their lifestyle,

34:43

what they are engaged in. Do we

34:45

baptize perfect people? No, we baptize

34:47

repentant people. But

34:49

if a couple was living together apart

34:52

from marriage, we would encourage

34:54

them. Well, we first say, no, we cannot baptize

34:56

you, but we absolutely encourage you to

34:58

keep talking with us about

35:01

your options. Biblically, uh,

35:03

you are living in an unsanctioned,

35:05

unsanctified relationship together,

35:08

and if you want to follow Christ, you need to either

35:10

marry or you need to discontinue the relationship

35:12

because baptism is is

35:14

based not just on a profession of

35:16

faith, but a profession of obedience.

35:19

Right? So Paul told the Romans, how

35:21

should we who are baptized in Christ, who

35:23

are dead to sin, continue to live in it? That's

35:25

Romans six three and four. You can't have it both

35:27

ways. So if you wish to be

35:29

baptized, you have to show,

35:32

um, basically the good faith

35:34

of saying that I have renounced and

35:36

am dying to the overt sin in my life

35:38

while continuing to struggle against the internal

35:40

sin as well. Communion

35:42

is a little tougher because we're not going to do surveys

35:45

of people before we serve them. Communion, I

35:47

would say, um, I know some churches

35:49

practice what you call closed communion if you're not

35:52

a member. Or you don't take communion, that

35:54

that is an option. They have my church

35:56

and I believe most most churches

35:58

I know practice a more open

36:00

communion where they say, look, we do ask

36:02

that you you ascertain, be

36:05

sure you're a believer in Jesus Christ before you

36:07

take communion. And we have a time

36:09

of confession before communion. First Corinthians 1128

36:11

said, look, examine yourself before you take

36:14

the body and blood of Christ. It's

36:16

a very serious thing to do that without self-examination.

36:19

Now, if we know that

36:21

someone is an unrepentant sexual

36:23

sin, then no, we should not

36:25

be serving them communion. I remember some years

36:27

ago, a Catholic priest was put in

36:29

a terrible position. A gay couple

36:31

came forward to take communion, and they were wearing

36:34

a, uh, like pro-gay badges

36:36

and very open identification. He

36:39

refused to give them communion and they

36:41

refused to leave. It turned into a lawsuit

36:43

case, but I think the priest

36:45

did the right thing.

36:46

Yeah, I do too, but it's an underscores

36:48

why your monthly phone call

36:50

is so important. There has to be

36:53

some pre-thinking about this, because

36:55

it's not. If it's when these challenges

36:58

show up at your front door. And being

37:00

an ambassador for Christ, you want to be prepared.

37:02

You want to know how to be winsome

37:04

and truthful and biblical in your response.

37:07

I cannot think of a more important

37:09

resource for people. And obviously 330

37:11

plus pastors and reps from 13

37:13

countries think the same thing back after this.

37:23

We're visiting the Joe Dallas. Let me remind you again.

37:25

He's got a once a month zoom call called

37:27

The Challenge. And the purpose

37:29

of this is to provide effective pastoral

37:32

strategies for ministry to LGBTQ.

37:35

I've got a link on my website so that you can sign

37:37

up. It's once a month and

37:39

they're equipped following a Q and A and peer

37:41

consultations. And it is a brilliant

37:43

idea. And just as evidenced by the

37:45

numbers, clearly Joe tapped into a need

37:47

that was really out there. So the kinds of

37:49

questions that we've been discussing during the course of our

37:51

conversation are really emblematic of sorts

37:53

of questions that Joe hears on a monthly

37:56

basis. And you can see

37:58

how these are tough. These are not easy peasy.

38:00

This isn't a bumper sticker mentality at all.

38:02

This takes some real good knowledge

38:04

of the word compassion, understanding

38:07

the days and times in which we live and being

38:09

prepared, looking well to the ways of your

38:11

household. And that takes me to

38:13

some of the legal things, Joe, which we haven't talked about

38:15

yet. So here you've got bylaws,

38:17

here you've got statements of faith. Those are

38:19

extremely important. You know, an

38:22

ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. You

38:24

just talked about the Catholic priest and then ended up

38:26

in a lawsuit. And, you know, sometimes,

38:28

you know, it might be perfectly innocent, but I think

38:30

to be wise as a serpent, you have to understand that

38:32

sometimes there are bait and traps done

38:34

specifically to trigger litigation.

38:37

Your protection can often be found

38:39

in your what the courts call your

38:41

ecclesiastical documents. Talk to me about this

38:43

and why it's so important.

38:45

Yeah, three words that are important here

38:47

Janet. Position, policy, practice.

38:49

What are our positions based

38:52

on our sacred writings? Now I want to look at

38:54

this just from the even through the eyes of

38:56

a nonbeliever. A nonbeliever would look at the church

38:58

and say, okay, as a

39:00

as a religious organization, you must

39:02

have certain sacred documents that you,

39:05

your lives are guided by. What

39:07

are the positions that you have based

39:09

on those documents? That's what we do. We spell out our

39:11

positions. You see, then our practices

39:14

and policies are

39:16

enacted in response to those positions.

39:18

So you got to have the positions accessible.

39:21

Um, I'm not saying when people come to

39:23

your church have a sign in front saying, you

39:25

know, you must be born again and you

39:27

must be straight, but you

39:29

do. It shouldn't be hard if you're looking

39:31

on somebody's website to find out. Okay,

39:34

church wise, where do you stand on some key issues?

39:36

So it's very helpful to make

39:38

your positions accessible on this

39:40

so that people coming to your church don't

39:43

say, oh, you caught me off guard, when all of

39:45

a sudden you pulled the rug out from under me and said,

39:47

you won't marry my partner and I. You

39:49

clarified, these are our positions and

39:51

therefore our policy will be to do this.

39:53

And here is the practice we will put in place to

39:55

enact our policy. That way you've got yourself

39:58

covered. So positions, policies, practices.

40:00

Very important.

40:01

Yeah I couldn't agree more. And by the way

40:03

lawyers love to use Latin phrases. Here's another

40:06

one. Ex post facto. Don't say

40:08

as your church leadership. Well, you know what? We've never had

40:10

a problem. So if we ever get one, then

40:12

we'll put it in place. The law goes,

40:14

sorry you didn't have it in place. That

40:16

ex post facto means quite simply, after the

40:18

fact you need it now before the challenge

40:20

comes, right?

40:21

Exactly. And by the way, as you do

40:23

that, because you're so right, get it in

40:26

place because you're going to get hit with this.

40:28

You know, you don't want to scramble

40:30

to mop up after the problem is hit,

40:32

be anticipated.

40:34

And then also be sure when

40:36

you're talking about your positions, policies, and

40:38

practices that you're not singling

40:41

out homosexuality, that you're saying, because this is

40:43

our position on the sacredness of marriage,

40:45

we condemn any behavior that

40:47

deviates from the heterosexual,

40:50

monogamous, permanent covenant of

40:52

marriage. Yeah. See, that includes

40:54

a number of sexual sins. So you can't be accused of

40:56

just picking out homosexuality. So make sure

40:58

you've got the consistency factor in place.

41:00

Yeah, exactly. Right now, God

41:03

hasn't given us a spirit of fear, but power,

41:05

love and of a sound mind. So tapping

41:07

into all three, I think it's important

41:09

for the church to understand the lay of the land.

41:11

They need to understand that there

41:14

are going to be more challenges, not less.

41:16

Clearly, Christian schools,

41:18

colleges are under threat, especially

41:20

if the current rewrite of the title Nine

41:22

Laws, which opens a Pandora's box

41:25

because sex now means anything goes. So

41:27

that means girls and boys,

41:29

you know, boys who identify as girls. Now that

41:31

just kills girls sports. It's locker rooms.

41:33

It's boarding together in dorm rooms. You

41:35

take one penny of federal dollars

41:37

if you get a Pell Grant, if you get any kind of student aid,

41:39

boom, you're under the authority of

41:41

the federal government, for sure. But

41:43

what are some of the other challenges churches might

41:45

face in the days to come?

41:47

Oh, uh, they could face the

41:49

threat of revocation of tax exempt status

41:52

if they won't perform same sex marriages. That's

41:54

a that's a distinct possibility. A number of Democratic

41:56

candidates in the last presidential election

41:58

said they would support that. Uh,

42:00

certainly conversion therapy bans, those

42:02

are spreading around the world. They

42:04

are basically bans on what is called conversion

42:07

therapy, which when you read the fine print,

42:09

means basically any counseling

42:12

advice, pastoral or otherwise, would suggest

42:14

that somebody can change their sexual

42:16

behavior or abstain from

42:18

homosexual. Will behavior. Uh,

42:21

they're going to be facing that. Certainly,

42:24

uh, Christian universities or institutions

42:26

that do receive government funding, like you said,

42:29

they may have to make some hard

42:31

choices about whether or not they want to

42:33

continue receiving that funding.

42:35

Um, well, we're going to see more and more challenges

42:37

to parental rights, Janet. I mean, this is going

42:40

to become insane

42:42

in some cases if current trends continue.

42:45

Uh, the Child Protective Services will begin

42:47

removing children from homes. If the children

42:49

are saying I am trans identified and

42:51

my parents will not affirm me now

42:54

lest we get too carried away with fear.

42:56

Um, there's a lot of pushback, even in the natural.

42:58

And I'm I'm grateful for that. I appreciate

43:01

that Jesus did say if they

43:03

persecute you in one city, flee to another. Now,

43:05

that broader principle that he's he's

43:07

pointing out there is, you know,

43:09

if you can avoid being

43:12

sued, if you can avoid having criminal

43:15

action taken against you, find ways to avoid

43:17

it. Talk with good Christian attorneys. Keep

43:19

up on the laws, you know, take cases

43:21

to court if you need to. Don't just sit there,

43:23

but when your back is against

43:25

the wall, when push comes to shove. This

43:28

is this definition of marriage and family

43:30

and normal sexuality. Janet. It is a

43:32

hill with a big sign on it that says

43:34

die here. This is a hill to die

43:36

on. Let's keep that in mind.

43:37

You know what? It's funny because Craig and I were just

43:40

going through Romans 13 yesterday, and in the first

43:42

few verses, I mean, you realize that government

43:44

is he instituted three things the family

43:46

of the church and government. And there is

43:48

a point in time where when God's higher

43:51

law is in conflict with man's

43:53

law, we are compelled,

43:55

as followers of Christ, to bow our knee

43:57

to God and not to Caesar. And,

43:59

you know, it'd be nice to say, yeah, well, that was 100,000

44:02

years ago, and that's going to be 200,000

44:04

years hence. The reality is, these

44:07

are the days and times in which we live. And again, God

44:09

hasn't given us a spirit of fear, in fact, just the

44:11

opposite. He's called us for

44:13

such a time as this. So being prepared

44:15

on your position, your policies and your practices,

44:18

I think is hugely important. So here's

44:20

two ways I want to underscore this. Again, I cannot tell you

44:22

how excited I am about this brilliant idea

44:24

that Joe has called the challenge. Once

44:26

a month zoom call. I'll tell you the

44:29

easiest thing in the world. You can sign up for this.

44:31

People around the globe 13

44:33

countries represented 330 plus

44:35

pastors the last time Joe checked in. The numbers

44:37

still climbing, but you can go to Joe

44:39

Dallas comm. That'll get you in the front door. Or

44:41

if you go to our information page in the

44:43

market with Janet parshall.org, because

44:45

you're driving and you can't write this stuff down,

44:47

it's on the info page. Just click that box

44:50

on the front page that says Program

44:52

Details and Audio. It will

44:54

take you to the information page. You can't miss it because

44:56

it's called the challenge. And right underneath

44:58

it it says sign up for the challenge.

45:00

Click that on and then you can be a participant

45:03

in this as well. Joe, I already look forward

45:05

to our conversations because again, you

45:07

never disappoint this beautiful balance

45:09

of truth and love and compassion

45:12

and biblical truth. Thank you so much, Joe.

45:14

Thank you friends. We'll see you next time on In the

45:16

Market with Janet Parshall.