10:00

temple trying to get rid

10:02

of a Christian nationalist and

10:04

to negate evangelical Christian theocracy.

10:06

It's war. Suit up. Take your

10:08

calls right after this. 877-548-3675. These

10:27

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of any amount to In the Market. Call 877-JANET58. That's

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10:49

janetpartial.org. 877-548-3675. That's our number. The phone

10:56

lines are open and you get to ask

10:58

any question you have about spiritual warfare. And

11:00

if you're letting Hollywood teach you on this

11:03

subject, you're very, very confused. So you probably

11:05

have a question or two, which is why

11:07

we're so grateful for our friend Dr. Carol

11:09

Payne, who's a pastor, a teacher, a speaker,

11:12

an author, and former NFL chaplain for the

11:14

Seattle Seahawks. I will not hold that against

11:16

him. He's on staff at the Antioch Bible

11:18

Church in Redmond, Washington. While he's there, his

11:21

job is to serve the pastor as the

11:23

pastor of leadership development and discipleship training, which

11:25

he does beautifully, by the way. He

11:27

has written what I think is the definitive

11:30

text, although he will humbly point out other

11:32

authors as well. But there's just something about

11:34

Dr. Payne's writing that has such clarity on

11:36

this topic. It's called Spiritual Warfare, Christians, Demonization,

11:38

and Deliverance. I know a whole lot of

11:41

people in our listening audience have already gotten

11:43

this book. It has been updated

11:45

and republished. And if you don't have it, it

11:47

really does answer your questions. The kinds that we

11:49

will take during the course of our conversation this

11:51

hour, 877-548-3675. Dear Carl, I have so many questions

11:53

I want to ask you, but

11:58

I would be remiss and I wouldn't So

14:00

I just thought, okay, Ephesians 2, 1-2,

14:02

we're told that Satan is the Lord Lilliell of

14:08

planet Earth on a leash, at least for a

14:10

while. So if someone's trying

14:13

to set up a theocracy, I'd say he's

14:15

doing a pretty good job and he's using,

14:17

you know, pawns like this group to willfully,

14:19

I mean, I'm sure they're delightful in it,

14:22

but I thought if you're fighting a theocracy,

14:24

then how about you start fighting the

14:26

Prince of this world instead of the

14:28

creator of the world, you think you're virtuous

14:31

in doing that? Well, well,

14:33

if you're really all about equality, then how

14:35

about any of the groups that are trying

14:37

to set up their own kingdoms here, including

14:40

Satan, when you've

14:42

got the boss of the group that you

14:44

hate saying, this isn't my kingdom and

14:46

the my kingdom's still coming. So I

14:48

thought about this kind of the hypocrisy

14:50

in that, whether it's thinking about the

14:53

chaplains or whether it's thinking

14:55

about the notion of setting

14:57

up a theocracy. And

15:00

I go, right now you're winning.

15:02

I remember when I had a Satanist and I've

15:04

sold this story, he approached me on the

15:07

Ellensburg campus in Washington, Central,

15:09

they call it. And

15:12

he tried to convert me. I

15:14

was there and he walked

15:16

up afterwards and apparently I'd

15:18

been talking and he goes

15:21

in, what are you going

15:23

to join our group? We're the one winning. And

15:25

I said, you know, I was surprised, you know,

15:27

your group, we talked about it. Satanist.

15:30

And I said, well, I've read the

15:32

end of the book and he says, well, look,

15:34

look around you were winning. And I said, well,

15:36

for now. And he

15:38

got really he got real offended, you know, when

15:40

I said, why in the world would I want

15:43

to follow your boss? He's a loser. You

15:45

know, my boss is the winner. If I want

15:47

to follow the highest authority, it's not your boss.

15:49

And he walked away in a huff. But

15:52

I guess my point was I don't

15:54

see people involved with groups like this

15:56

that are saying, gosh, we're losing, we're

15:58

getting beat so badly. It's

16:01

like we just keep blowing away the

16:03

foundations of Christians and we've

16:05

got more Christians that are willing to blend in

16:07

and run than they are fight. Anyone

16:11

trying to say that Christianity represents

16:13

a majority doesn't read

16:15

polls. I would like to say

16:17

we are. I'm

16:20

taking a group right now through one of

16:23

David Jeremiah's books, his book called the

16:25

Book of Sowings. As

16:27

I've read that, talking about the

16:30

last days, which I believe would

16:32

go from the rapture of the

16:34

church, I'm pre-trib, to

16:37

the end of the Millennial Kingdom

16:41

when we'll be headed to a new heaven and

16:43

a new earth. Maybe we'll get houses close enough

16:45

we can say hi. I don't know. But

16:49

Janet, when he just talks about

16:51

the degradation of the things going

16:53

down, it's like he's saying,

16:59

keep your eyes open. No one knows

17:01

the exact time, but you can't see

17:03

what's going on and not understand that

17:05

the prince of this world, he's

17:08

having a heyday right now. I

17:11

guess, and all of it just reminds me, if

17:14

I want to say we deserve better, I go,

17:16

yeah, how many

17:18

babies get aborted with their blood on

17:20

the ground saying, yeah, we deserve better

17:23

kind of thing. I don't

17:25

want to be in that fight. I

17:29

think the church has made an art form out of blending

17:31

in. So when I

17:33

hear this whole kind of thing, Janet, I just

17:36

go, I think, hey, there's hypocrisy. But

17:38

I think, B, church isn't what it

17:40

used to be as far as the

17:42

dominant perspective in North

17:47

America. Days are gone. Yeah.

17:50

Oh, wow. Wow. Spot on everything

17:52

you said. Let me take a break and come back.

17:54

We're going to take your questions. Now. Do

17:58

you feel that the movies teach you? about

18:00

an exorcism or satanic influence, then you've gotten

18:02

a poor education. What does the Bible have

18:04

to say? Because the Bible has quite a

18:06

bit to say about this topic. And if

18:08

it's in there, then God wants us to

18:10

know about it. 877-548-3675, Dr. Carl Payne, our

18:13

teacher. Your

18:16

calls when we return, 877-548-3675. We're

18:25

visiting with Dr. Carl Payne, who's on

18:27

staff at Antioch Bible Church in Redmond,

18:29

Washington. His role there is

18:32

to serve as the pastor of leadership

18:34

development and discipleship training. And that's really

18:36

what he's doing with us as he

18:38

teaches us about spiritual warfare. He's the

18:40

author of the book, Spiritual Warfare Christians,

18:42

Demonization and Deliverance. And we're taking your

18:44

calls at 877-548-3675, 877-548-3675.

18:51

Brian in Indiana, thanks for joining us. Your question,

18:53

please. Hello.

18:57

My question is, well, I've seen a lot

18:59

of guys doing deliverance and they

19:02

talk about it takes hours, it could take

19:04

all night. And my question

19:06

is, why does it take so long for

19:09

some spirits to come out than the others? And

19:12

what's the deciding factor?

19:16

Why do they not just stay forever then?

19:19

Like why do they not get casted out

19:21

immediately? Hmm. Good

19:25

question, because you're right. I

19:28

hope I don't sound harsh in

19:30

my response when I say this,

19:33

but I don't think it

19:35

should take all day and all night. I mean,

19:37

I've been working with this now since 1982. When

19:41

I have people that were gonna work with this,

19:43

I tell them, I'm gonna plan

19:45

two hours in my book, it'll be less,

19:47

usually 90 minutes or so. And

19:50

I think there's two things going on, or

19:52

maybe three. One, I think that some people

19:54

are just following the training they've been given,

19:58

and there are plenty of people.

20:00

that want to see deliverance and

20:02

demonization look like a circus, I

20:04

think because they think it makes

20:06

them look really powerful if

20:09

they get into shouting matches with demons

20:11

and such. And then

20:13

if they end up prevailing, I have suggested

20:15

it looks like a parent arguing with a

20:17

four-year-old, and you've already lost before

20:19

you start when you do that. So

20:22

I think that might be part of

20:25

it, just training and perception. I

20:27

think another part of it would be, and

20:29

it's related to this, if you have leaders

20:31

that don't know that you can. This

20:35

can be hours or this can be days. I've

20:38

had people tell me, I had

20:40

someone call me and said that they've been meeting

20:42

once a week with a deliverance person for nine

20:44

months. I just said, they don't know

20:46

what they're doing. And I'm

20:48

sorry, but they don't. And

20:51

so I would say part of it would be that, again,

20:53

going back to the training idea, if

20:56

you've got people that are working with

20:58

this, but the norm

21:00

that they have been trained with or seen

21:02

is, this has to be a war going

21:04

back and forth, and the

21:06

good guys are supposed to win. But as

21:09

Stone Phillips thinks so many years said when they

21:11

were doing the Catholic priests, he said, every time

21:13

I work with this, it kills a little bit

21:15

more of me. Some comment

21:17

like that, and I thought, great. Good guys

21:19

win, bad guys lose. Bad

21:22

guys end up prevailing killing

21:24

good guy. What a nonsense

21:26

message. So I would just say again,

21:28

training part of it, expectation part of

21:30

it, which would go back to training.

21:33

But I would say there's a big

21:35

part too, and that's, is the person

21:37

willing? Are they ready to deal with

21:39

this? I've

21:41

been dealing with this, and I would think

21:43

people would say very, very

21:45

successfully in many, many ways. And

21:48

yet when I have people that call me and say,

21:51

would you be willing to work with me on,

21:53

you know, whatever it is, and

21:55

my sense with them is, there's

21:58

nothing in you that's wanting this.

22:00

stop, you know, as

22:02

far as sin that opens the door, that

22:04

kind of thing. I don't want to change. I

22:07

just want the mental hell I go through to

22:09

stop. I'll say, you can't have it both ways.

22:12

If you're not willing to say,

22:14

I belong to Jesus and there's

22:16

no compartmentalizing in my life, mentally,

22:19

emotionally, physically, spiritually, everything belongs to

22:21

Him. If there's any

22:23

compartmentalizing, Jesus can have this, but not

22:25

that. You know, Jesus can have

22:27

this, but culture says this is okay. So

22:31

demons will just mock and say, hey, as long

22:33

as you're willing to play games and say Jesus

22:35

can have part of me, but not all of

22:37

me, then why should we run

22:40

from you? So I think it can

22:42

have, is the person that they're dealing with ready? I

22:45

don't know the answer to that. Do

22:48

they know what they're doing? Some do. There

22:50

are certainly some that don't. And

22:52

are some of them doing it purposely just to

22:54

kind of build up their own cred, I guess.

22:57

And to me, that's, you know, if

22:59

you are using people and putting them

23:01

through needless pain that they do not

23:03

need to go through an extra fear,

23:06

somehow I don't see that as being

23:08

the champion for Jesus. I see

23:10

that as a very small person trying

23:12

to build their own kingdom. And then

23:14

that to me is, that's a sad

23:16

situation. You're using people instead of helping

23:18

people. So I suppose it could be

23:20

any, any of the three

23:22

and there could be something else. I think about

23:25

an hour from now and say son of a

23:27

gun, Janet, I missed on something. But anyway,

23:31

that's what I think of in response to your

23:33

questions. Thanks, Brian. I very much appreciate the question.

23:35

And there's so many things I want to ask

23:37

in response, but I'm going to

23:39

defer to Laura who joins us also from Indiana.

23:42

Laura, thanks for being here. Your question, please. Hi.

23:46

Okay. So my question is a

23:48

difference I've had with my sister on

23:50

this subject. Can a true spirit filled

23:52

believer who has the Holy Spirit actually

23:54

be possessed? I know I believe they

23:56

can be oppressed, but I'm wondering if

23:58

they could actually be possessed. any

26:00

case and that's to say that

26:02

we do view our religious, the

26:05

religious context we frame

26:08

our works in and our our little

26:11

subculture in is

26:14

is not dependent on a belief

26:16

in a literal Satan.

26:20

That is a

26:22

very difficult thing for a lot of people to

26:24

grasp. People who feel that religion is

26:26

dependent upon a belief in a supernatural

26:29

entity that you need to have a

26:31

literalistic belief in. And I

26:33

find it ironic that we have

26:35

these kinds of debates with Christians

26:38

who, you know,

26:41

lionize a character who taught

26:44

lessons in parable. And yet

26:46

it seems entirely lost on

26:48

the literalist, fundamentalist types that

26:52

stories, literature, poetry can illuminate

26:54

or enrich lives. A

26:57

lot of people think that because of

26:59

that we're merely a prank, especially because

27:01

we involve ourselves in political

27:03

activism and that type of thing. That

27:05

is our opportunism to ask for religious

27:08

exemption. But I'm

27:11

not, I don't think

27:13

we are necessarily opposed to religious

27:16

exemption at all. If

27:18

somebody feels that something the

27:20

government is doing encroaches upon

27:22

their fundamental sense of cultural

27:25

identity to the point that

27:27

they just cannot participate in

27:29

certain laws that

27:32

violate those deeply held beliefs of

27:34

theirs, there should be some recourse

27:36

for them to argue religious exemption.

27:39

And I don't think that has

27:41

ever been dependent upon a literalist,

27:45

supernatural, superstitious religious

27:47

belief. Not

27:50

sure how many pejoratives he can throw in

27:52

in one comment. That of course is Lucian

27:55

Greaves, not his real name. Really?

27:57

What are you afraid of? He is

27:59

the head of the satanic. Temple, by the

28:01

way, and oh, so much more than parables

28:03

and stories, right? For a guy who doesn't

28:05

believe in Satan, he certainly does understand the

28:07

game plan, does he not? Dr.

28:09

Carl Payne is with us. We are talking about spiritual warfare,

28:12

877-548-3675. He's

28:15

written a marvelous book that I recommend to any of

28:17

you who have an interest and a desire to know

28:19

more about this topic. It's called Spiritual

28:21

Warfare Christians, Demonization, and Deliverance. I'm going back

28:24

to the phones at 877-548-3675. Dr.

28:28

Carl, I want to go back to the question you asked earlier.

28:30

When I made the statement, don't let the world

28:33

teach you theology, let me just do a quick

28:35

round robin with you on some things. If you

28:37

allow Hollywood to teach you on this, there are

28:39

several things that apparently are necessary for a quote,

28:41

exorcism. Got to be a Catholic

28:43

priest, got to have a crucifix, got to have holy water,

28:45

got to be spoken in Latin, got to have a rosary

28:47

and the demon always have a deep voice. What

28:50

part of that is true or necessary? Well,

28:53

I don't think any of that is necessary. I

28:57

think that Luke 10, I

29:00

think that 2 Corinthians 10 both

29:03

make it pretty clear that

29:05

my relationship with Christ, the

29:07

delegated authority, the divinely powerful

29:09

weaponry He's given is really

29:12

what demons either recognize or

29:14

don't recognize. And

29:16

when someone is putting their trust and

29:18

hope and faith in anything other than

29:20

the delegated authority of the Lord Jesus

29:22

Christ has given you as a believer,

29:24

demons are not going to mock. I

29:28

mean, they will play

29:30

games all night long. They'll drag it

29:32

out until they feel like, you know, we can

29:34

just wear you out. So no, I mean, Hollywood

29:36

has it wrong. I'm

29:38

sure that there are some people in the

29:40

Roman Catholic Church that have been genuinely set

29:43

free, but a notion that there's only a

29:45

handful of people, you know, who can take

29:47

care of this and it's dependent upon anything

29:49

other than Christ or go

29:51

into the Protestant side of it. When

29:54

you get like a new apostolic reformation

29:56

group, part of their teaching that, you

29:58

know, some of us can

30:00

deal with. low-ranking demons, but unless you're

30:02

one of their 400 apostles, you can't

30:04

deal with the big boys. I

30:06

think both of those groups are equally

30:09

ignorant in what they're sharing. They

30:11

may be equally sincere. I'm not

30:13

talking about sincerity, but as far

30:15

as trying to take what they

30:17

believe and matching it with Scripture,

30:19

which becomes the ultimate, and it's

30:22

got to be the ultimate foundation,

30:24

is Scripture. Neither one of them can do it.

30:28

I don't want to cut you off, because

30:30

you said several things. I was thinking again

30:33

about where you opened with,

30:36

and Iran being a

30:38

theocracy, and then the gentleman that was

30:41

speaking again. It's funny, because I didn't

30:43

know if we were going to go back to that or even have

30:45

a chance, but I wanted to say something that I thought about

30:47

during the break. Janet, see if this makes

30:50

sense. Part of it triggered off when you

30:52

said to the listening audience, Iran, now that's

30:54

a theocracy, and that's true. They're

30:57

very open about it. My goodness, let's

30:59

still live in the eighth century. Women,

31:02

you're not going to be educated. Homosexuals,

31:05

you can take head dives off mountains.

31:10

I was thinking about cultural

31:12

warriors like the gentleman you

31:14

were interfering with, were activists,

31:16

were cultural warriors. We're all

31:19

for free press. We're

31:21

all for free religious speech,

31:24

free religion. We're

31:27

all for homosexual rights,

31:29

transsexual rights, abortion rights,

31:32

climate change rights. I

31:34

just thought, oh, you

31:38

brave soldiers and cultural warriors, how

31:40

about you take that argument that

31:42

you're making, any of those, and

31:45

go into a Muslim country

31:47

like Iran or wherever Sharia

31:49

law is practiced. Let's

31:51

see how you do in your

31:53

protest, whether it's trans or

31:55

homosexuality, or try China forcing

31:57

them to abide by climate.

34:00

They start dialoguing with him. There's a

34:02

herd of pigs close by and the

34:04

demons beg Jesus. If you're gonna

34:06

cast this out, send us into a herd of pigs.

34:08

And he says, go, they go out, they jump over

34:10

the bridge, the rest of, or they jump over the

34:12

cliff, the rest is history. Couple of

34:14

questions. Number one, first

34:17

of all, when they went to the

34:19

pigs and they went over the side,

34:21

were the demons destroyed forever? Number one.

34:23

Number two, the fact that they engaged

34:26

Jesus in his very presence, they

34:28

knew that their time was up. Their clock was about

34:30

to be punched. How did they know that? Okay,

34:35

both very good questions.

34:37

I'll answer the first one and say,

34:41

I think that was a bit of an

34:43

anomaly and I'm not Jesus. I don't know

34:46

for sure how to answer. Where

34:48

they was there, was their ticket punched? Where they're

34:50

in the pit or the abyss, never to bother

34:52

people again, which is more typical where they did

34:54

not wanna go. How did they

34:57

know? I think just seeing the Son of God

35:00

in other words, Jesus Christ, God incarnate,

35:02

they go, uh-oh, is this the time

35:04

that he's come back to set up

35:06

a kingdom if it is? Our run

35:08

is getting short. So I

35:11

mean, they know the prophets and

35:15

clearly the Jews were promised a millennial

35:17

kingdom, which I believe is still future,

35:20

but they would have known that. So if they

35:22

see God incarnate

35:24

a period, maybe they're going, okay, we

35:26

thought we had more time. Jesus,

35:30

Jesus, did you come to

35:32

send us back early kind of thing? Whether

35:35

or not when they went into the pigs,

35:37

were they free then to take off because

35:39

they weren't cast as far as we know

35:41

into the abyss or the pit where they

35:43

kind of have a permanent holding place? I

35:45

don't know how to answer that because I

35:47

don't know what Jesus did. He's the infinite,

35:49

all powerful one. So I would say I

35:52

wouldn't make or lose a friend over that

35:54

one. I'll just say, I'll ask Jesus that

35:57

one in that situation.

36:00

know that that that particular circumstance but there was so

36:02

much of that was an anomaly I'll tell you the

36:04

part though that wasn't I mean again to me and

36:07

that's again when I have Christians

36:09

say to me you know well

36:11

the demons aren't going to bother

36:13

spirit-filled baptized Christians that are walking

36:15

with God that's just for either

36:17

non Christians or or that's for

36:19

flaky people that really they say

36:22

they're Christian I go if they

36:24

are going to take on Jesus

36:27

they did that Matthew 4 they do that

36:29

again in Matthew 8 why in the

36:32

world would I think that somehow because

36:34

I belong to Christ I'm immune why

36:37

why again Ephesians 6 why would we

36:39

be given armor and shields to put

36:41

out fiery arrows if we shouldn't expect

36:43

we're gonna get shot at I

36:46

still think we're called soldiers for a reason

36:48

and I think it's a metaphor people don't

36:50

want to think about but

36:52

I think it's a reality yes I

36:55

want peace but we're soldiers yeah amen

36:57

oh boy I could not agree with

36:59

you more dr. Carl Payne is our guest

37:01

when we come back let me go back to the phones at 877-548-3675

37:06

again his book superb I hope

37:09

you'll read it it's very very

37:11

much on point biblically it's called

37:13

spiritual warfare Christians demonization and deliverance

37:16

you can learn more by going

37:18

to our website in the market

37:20

with Janet partial.org click on that

37:23

red box it's program details and

37:25

audio it'll take you where you

37:27

need to go back after this

37:30

we're visiting with dr. Carl Payne

37:32

pastor teacher speaker author and he's

37:34

written the book spiritual warfare Christians

37:36

demonization and deliverance he's on staff

37:38

at Antioch Bible Church in Redmond

37:41

Washington you say been doing this since 1982 Carl now

37:43

you know I'm not

37:46

gonna give a whole lot of publicity to the enemy

37:48

because we're on the Wii winning side but can

37:51

I just ask for kind of a flyover

37:53

because we've got I think truly if someone

37:55

hasn't experienced this personally or hasn't been present

37:58

when something like this is happening Their

38:00

tutorial unfortunately is Hollywood and Hollywood

38:02

has a plethora of media

38:05

outlets, whether they're serialized TV programs or

38:07

horror films, but it's always, you can

38:09

close your eyes and it's the same

38:11

scene. Forget the script, forget the plot

38:13

line. It's the same scene every time

38:15

there's an exorcism. In a

38:17

real exorcism, I mean,

38:20

does the room smell? Does it get cold?

38:23

All these things we see in Hollywood. I

38:25

mean, what actually happens? Do

38:27

you see a visual presence? Does the affect of

38:29

the person change? I mean, what happens? Well,

38:32

I can answer that in a context to

38:35

me when I'm working with that and

38:37

then a number of colleagues that I

38:39

speak with. You know,

38:41

when I think of Dean Vandermay, I

38:43

think of Fred Dickison, I think of

38:45

Marcus Warner, Tim

38:48

Warner, Marcus's dad, the late

38:51

Mark Bubek. When I

38:53

think of folks that I have spoken

38:56

with in conferences and

38:58

such, I

39:00

would say very different. I would say it's

39:02

very matter of fact. I say in

39:04

that book, if you allow it to be a circus,

39:06

that's on you. I

39:09

say when I'm involved with demonization

39:11

and working with people, I call

39:13

the systematic mop up, not

39:15

a battle, not a war, and certainly

39:18

not a circus. So

39:20

you have rightly said what Hollywood

39:22

shows, I have found it, again,

39:25

I don't mean this to sound arrogant, I

39:27

hope it doesn't. I have had

39:29

demons say to me when someone

39:31

comes in and they're ready to go, they'll say, don't

39:33

be cruel, just get it over with. So

39:36

when people turn everything into, honestly,

39:40

so when people turn it into a fight and

39:42

it's a battle of wits and who's

39:45

on their game more and all, I'll go, any

39:48

Christian that thinks they're going to

39:51

take demons down on their authority,

39:53

their good looks, their spiritual gift,

39:55

their church affiliation, their sincerity, their

39:58

infinite surprise. know

40:00

what you're doing. The reason I

40:02

talk about one of the things Marcus Warner

40:04

said, and I don't mean this to be

40:06

self-serving, but I know Marcus said, well, the

40:08

best things I caught from you and our

40:10

friendship is laying down ground rules. I

40:13

talk about ground rules. Ground rules are telling

40:15

demons, this is what's going to happen. And

40:17

the only thing you're going to do is

40:20

obey and leave. Because when you

40:22

have demons used to being able to create circus

40:24

and used to being able to create fear

40:27

and that kind of thing, they

40:29

get it there way people are afraid, kind

40:31

of like the acts 19. I

40:33

say when it's just very matter of fact, we

40:36

persons ready to roll person has been willing

40:38

to say anything that opened the door, Lord

40:41

forgive it. Please cancel that top

40:43

boss. Please close that door. Demons move

40:46

from I'm invited or I'm tolerated to

40:48

your squatter. You have no right here.

40:50

And the only thing you're going to

40:52

do is obey and leave. So

40:55

when people turn it into anything

40:57

other than that, Janet, they are

40:59

adding Hollywood to it, or they

41:01

are certainly allowing things to go

41:03

on that don't need to happen.

41:06

So I'm sorry if I sounded

41:08

pejorative, you know, when someone, when I, when I

41:11

said, you know, someone saying they've been meeting once

41:13

a month for nine months and I just said,

41:15

you don't know what you're doing. Now I believe

41:18

that's accurate. I don't mean that to be cruel.

41:20

I don't know who trained them. I don't know who

41:22

taught them. I said to a young lady

41:24

and I shared the story, you

41:28

know, some people had brought them in a

41:30

pastor and two pastors and a women's director

41:32

and a

41:34

lady that was clearly demonized. And

41:37

they said to me after we talked 30, 40

41:39

minutes, you think she's demonized? I said, yes. They said,

41:41

are you willing to work with her? And I said,

41:44

no. And they looked at

41:46

me just so surprised and said, why? And

41:48

I said, young lady, you do not believe

41:50

that God has won this. And this is

41:52

a mop up. You think this is a

41:54

battle of equals. And she looked up at

41:56

me and I said, like pink, my stomare,

41:58

I said, like ping pong play. And

42:01

I said, you see God on one side, you

42:03

see Satan on the other, and you see yourself

42:05

as the little ball. And the only

42:07

thing you can do is get batted around because

42:09

you are scared. I said,

42:11

as long as you see Satan, part

42:13

of the creation, as an equal with

42:16

the Creator, they're not going to quit

42:18

bothering you. So when you

42:20

have Christians, whether it's, you know, you have to

42:22

use this kind of oil, you have to say

42:25

these kind of war, et cetera.

42:27

I'm going, no, you win because

42:29

Jesus Christ won. If

42:32

you're going on the authority, I don't

42:34

care what it is, you're gifting your

42:36

church, I took a class on whatever.

42:39

Demons just laugh. So,

42:42

no, it shouldn't be a circus, it shouldn't

42:44

be a battle of wits. I don't raise

42:46

my voice. I've talked to people that have

42:48

been in here. They go, all we have

42:50

is a conversation. I

42:53

expect to win from the time they go

42:55

because if a person isn't willing to

42:58

deal with this, I'm not chasing them down,

43:00

that I weed people out before we start,

43:02

Janet. Not to be mean, but I'm just

43:05

saying right now, that's not doing you a

43:07

favor. But when that person is a Christian,

43:09

when that person is honest about the sin

43:13

that opened doors, and when that person

43:15

says, I am ready to fight, aren't

43:17

they statey? I am ready to stand

43:19

against Satan. I resolutely oppose Satan and

43:21

his demons rather than I'll accommodate them,

43:23

I'll entertain them, I'll listen to them.

43:26

When they're going south, I'm going

43:28

north. They'll win, and it's

43:31

not a big deal. When

43:33

they entertain it and they

43:35

make them a battle of equals between the

43:37

Creator and the creation, they're going to lose.

43:41

Wow. I've got so many practical questions I

43:43

want to ask you, but I have goosebumps

43:45

when you're talking because I think this

43:47

is the most important way to take away

43:49

from this conversation. And I hope you don't

43:51

mind, friends, but I think that this was

43:53

a very important conversation. You

43:56

reminded us, you've seen it. This

43:58

is your approach whenever you're dealing

44:00

with Satan. someone who's oppressed or

44:02

being demonized. You

44:04

laid the ground rule. You said, this

44:07

isn't an equal playing field. I don't

44:09

need to raise my voice. I don't

44:11

need to use bells and whistles. I

44:13

come in in the authority of Jesus's

44:15

name and you're gonna leave now, you're

44:17

gonna vacate. Starting from a position

44:20

of strength, not a position of this

44:22

is the Seattle Seahawks versus the Packers.

44:24

There's not parity here, there's not equality

44:26

here. There's a victor and then there

44:28

is the one who's going to be

44:30

defeated ultimately in the end. So this

44:32

idea of authority is what does it

44:34

more than bells and whistles

44:36

and gimmicks. I

44:39

can't thank you enough for that. So

44:42

maybe the next time we get together again,

44:45

talk to me about the pragmatics because

44:47

I think until we tear down this

44:49

Hollywood stereotype, people aren't gonna understand this.

44:51

What Hollywood will never portray is exactly

44:53

what you just talked about. Who is

44:55

the victor? Who has authority? Who

44:57

is the one that has the power? Hollywood

44:59

wants to make it look like the demon

45:01

is scary, makes people jump up and down

45:03

in their bed, they have to be changed,

45:05

they vomit the whole nine yards. Uh-uh, uh-uh.

45:08

And that's why I think our conversations are so

45:10

important. My thanks to all of you with your

45:12

questions. Thank you, Carl, for a fabulous conversation. Read

45:14

his book, it's absolutely fabulous. We'll see you next

45:17

time, friends.