0:00

Mario: Hey guys, how's it going? Justin: good.

0:03

Alan: very well. Mario: So, Alan, uh, we have a special episode

0:07

Alan: we do. Indeed. Very exciting. Mario: we do super excited to have our first guest ever

0:14

Justin: First guest ever. Alan: Yeah. Justin: Oh,

0:16

Mario: ever. Justin: I hope people aren't disappointed.

0:19

Okay. Mario: Not at all.

0:23

Justin: should have saved it for Beyonce or someone more impressive.

0:28

Alan: You are the rock star of our little world, so you

0:30

Mario: Yeah. exactly.

0:33

Exactly. You're like, eh, I was telling my wife, yeah, we're going to have

0:36

Justin on our podcast and uh, Yeah.

0:39

It's, it's, it's awesome. And

0:41

she's like, oh, okay. It's you know, you don't understand the

0:45

significance of this Alan: that's That's nice, honey.

0:49

Mario: That's very nice Justin: I listened to your show all the time.

0:51

So it's fun to get to talk with you in real time and, uh, and see Fusioncast.

0:58

I've you know, this is the first time using it. It's great.

1:00

It's like really you're way further, along than I thought you

1:03

were like, Alan: He's this little dark horse.

1:05

It was kind of like building this it's really good.

1:08

It's Justin: yeah, this is, this is like not, not easy software to build.

1:16

Mario: No, it's not, it's not easy at all, but, uh, well, you know,

1:20

Alan keeps, uh, giving me a hard time because I haven't launched yet.

1:25

Every episode, every, every session that,

1:28

uh, we record, he's like, okay, when, are you

1:30

launching? When are you launching? Justin: So

1:33

Mario: good. It's good enough. Justin: when are you launching.

1:36

Alan: Yeah, exactly. Thank you. I didn't prep that.

1:42

Mario: Now it's, now it's two against one. No, um, uh, really soon, actually now I am really working on the final.

1:51

You know, steps that I need to take, before launching, I'm integrating my

1:54

billing system with paddle, and, and just updating the marketing site and,

1:59

fine tuning some of the infrastructure, you know, some of the, the server

2:03

where it's running and the database and, all the infrastructure stuff, so

2:07

that it's, um, robust enough to launch and have more people using the system.

2:14

So, you know what, that's, one of my concerns is will it scale?

2:18

You know, I haven't had a chance Alan: to find out. Mario: to, to try that.

2:22

Exactly. So it's like a catch 22 there.

2:25

Justin: if you look at the Reddit threads and the Twitter threads about this space,

2:32

uh, the, the most common complaint is, you know, uh, Riverside was good, but now.

2:38

Buggy or I used to love Zencaster, but now I'm getting audio drift and it seems

2:44

like, and this space is very, there's a herd mentality around it, where, you know,

2:49

at first everyone was using Zencaster and then they had a few issues and then it was

2:54

like, everyone moved over to squad cast.

2:57

And then Riverside came out with video recording first.

3:00

And so people moved over there and then Riverside had some

3:03

bugs and, uh, people complain.

3:06

But so it's yeah, the, the finicky- ness of it is I think the challenge.

3:13

Um, Mario: exactly. Justin: but ironically, I almost think like, I mean, I like the, I like all of

3:20

those folks, like Zencaster and squad cast, and Riverside, they're all great.

3:24

But the, for whatever reason, Riverside's problems started after

3:28

they got, uh, a bunch of funding and hired a bunch of people,

3:32

it was kind of better when they were indie and just a few people working on it

3:37

Alan: Typical. Isn't it. It's the way it goes. Justin: I don't know why that is, but

3:42

Alan: There may be. Yeah. I mean, maybe they just got too excited and yeah, I tried to take on too much.

3:46

I mean, the thing is with this kind of software, it's like the, the,

3:49

you want it to do one thing and you want it to really not screw that up.

3:52

Right. But I can see the, the urge to, well, we've got income

3:57

and money and we want to grow. And so yeah, this keep on adding stuff to, it must be very strong urge,

4:02

right? Mario: And more people, I guess, more moving parts, more things to manage, more

4:08

chances for things to go wrong Justin: yeah.

4:11

Alan: I mean, the interesting thing is quite a small, I mean,

4:13

it's a, I guess a reasonably niche niche ish thing.

4:17

There's not that many people in, you know, percentage of the world recording

4:21

podcasts, but at the same time, there's only a handful of competitors, right?

4:24

There's not like, you know, a hundred people making this kind of tool.

4:27

So hopefully to get known about is, you know, possible because it's

4:32

the same people are going to the same places and, you know, they're

4:36

in the same kind of communities. So hopefully, you know, that you can find your, your audience reasonably, reasonably

4:42

well, which was just what I was about to start to talking to Justin about before.

4:46

I think, you know, you're, you're lucky that your audiences, you know,

4:49

where they are, right for them. Justin: Yeah.

4:52

And it'd be interesting to see what's happening in this category now, because

4:57

back September, 2020, I remember watching squad cast was on Microconf Remote.

5:06

And they had just passed a hundred K in MRR.

5:11

And I think they were quite a bit behind transistor in terms of MRR for

5:16

awhile, and then the pandemic happened and that category just exploded.

5:21

Like even more than podcast hosting.

5:24

There was just that many more people that wanted to have you know, a

5:27

zoom like session like this, but be able to record it and be able to

5:31

record all the individual tracks.

5:34

And so the market for that seemed bigger. And so they just like, I can't remember how fast it was.

5:38

Like he said something like he

5:41

doubled, they doubled in 12 months or something

5:44

Alan: Well, something just kind

5:46

of caught yeah. That there was something about it. That was like, everybody understood what they needed and boom.

5:51

Justin: yeah. But a lot of us that experienced bumps.

5:55

like initial revenue bumps in the, that first lockdown, in the, behind the

6:00

scenes, like in the back channels, as we're talking, it was almost like we

6:04

pulled ahead revenue, like it accelerated revenue, but it just pulled it ahead.

6:08

And then eventually it, got pulled back, meaning like, we're

6:13

still ahead, but we were grow.

6:16

Like we grew transistor grew quite a bit too, not as much as squad cast,

6:20

but we, we had this big bump in revenue and you can see it on a revenue graph.

6:24

It goes like bump and then up and then down, and then it's

6:28

continued to grow since then. And the kind of worry in the, you know, in these back channel chats

6:34

is that, maybe all that really happened is we just accelerated,

6:38

pulled forward revenue that we would have had any way, but it just got accelerated.

6:43

Alan: It's kind of come back to back to almost where it would

6:46

have been projected anyway. Right. It was just like this temporary little booster, but it

6:50

kind of got back to normal. I mean, I think that's the biggest

6:54

kind of disappointment in this.

6:56

I thought we'd have, you know, like remote work and hybrid work.

6:59

There does seem to have been this massive pulling back, which I guess

7:01

it's a, like a rubber band in effect. Maybe we pulled too far in away, but hopefully there's, there's

7:06

going to be some more momentum towards that, but it does,

7:10

Justin: yeah, It'd be interesting to look at Zoom's numbers.

7:12

I haven't looked at their numbers lately, but, you know, have they gone,

7:16

have they really grown that much?

7:19

has it slowed down? That would be a good, I think, indicator of kind of where everything's going.

7:26

Mario: right. right. And the pandemic Mick, I guess, uh, had a lot to do with that

7:31

stretching of the rubber band. Right. Like maybe, maybe that went too far because the pandemic

7:36

was fueling a lot of that. And now, and now that it's getting better, we'll see where, where it goes.

7:42

Justin: Yeah. I mean, it was good. I think, I mean, it'll be good for both of you in the sense that awareness

7:49

for like tools like Fusioncast, but also tools like dot plan.

7:54

There's much more awareness. People are looking for those tools.

7:59

People got introduced to whole new categories of products that

8:02

they'd never seen before and now they know to search for them.

8:06

Right. Uh, and that kind of like search searching with intent is, I think for

8:13

indie software is what we all want.

8:16

We want people that know that podcast hosting is a category

8:21

is a thing you need to look for. And then you can search for best podcast hosting and hopefully find transistor.

8:27

Um, and the same for you, you know, that you'd hope that people would have

8:32

enough awareness of the category that they'd be searching for that stuff.

8:36

Um, so I think it was good in that sense, but I think for those of us

8:42

that benefited from it, there's a natural, like that whole cohort.

8:47

Now it's been two years and you know, a lot of them are reevaluating.

8:52

Do I still want to run my podcast that I started

8:55

in the pandemic? And so we're seeing some churn

8:57

related to that, you know? Alan: And it's probably feels a little bit worrying for you, but at the same time,

9:03

as you said, it was an unnatural event.

9:06

Anyway. So it's, um, it, it, it's kind of to be expected

9:11

what probably, yeah, Justin: yeah, yeah. I mean, the growth was amazing and again, we haven't, we haven't, uh, revenue still

9:19

growing, but it's definitely the growth has slowed down since that first lockdown.

9:26

Uh, so yeah, it's nice having the growth and, and again, any sort of Zeit Geist

9:30

that propels people into your sphere of,

9:34

you know, your category is, uh, welcome.

9:39

Alan: right. Yeah, no, I just say, I mean, I think the biggest thing was, you know, it, it

9:42

seemed to me, I mean, it was probably more amplified for me here as well in Japan.

9:46

Whereas remote work was here. It's, you know, when I first moved here, um, you know, I started talking

9:51

to people and you know, let's talk about remote sessions and it was just like,

9:54

no, we don't, we won't even consider it.

9:56

It was just completely off the table.

9:59

There was no consideration whatsoever. Whereas now it's a conversation you can have.

10:03

Um, you know, if the answer might still not be yes, but at least there's

10:08

an acceptance that yeah, it happens.

10:10

And we know that within certain circumstances it can work

10:13

well, but, um, it's yeah.

10:16

It's, as you said, it's helped bring it into a public awareness,

10:18

which can only be a good thing. Justin: Yeah.

10:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And a good opportunity for Indies.

10:24

I think like, even for people to start thinking about, you know, you had this

10:30

great resignation and that's actually one thing, at least in north America

10:33

that has been fairly sticky is people are not going back to work at the same

10:39

rate that people thought they would. A lot of people just resigned and then have been working on their own things,

10:45

trying to, you know, start their own businesses, uh, looking for better

10:49

paying jobs, going back and retraining.

10:52

That part has, been actually pretty sticky.

10:56

And that's a good thing for, uh, I think the indie maker community,

11:01

cause there's more people doing it. and there's more people looking to collaborate like, I think it's going to

11:06

be, become more competitive for remote jobs again, because the big employers

11:11

are going back to the office, but, you know, indie software companies that might

11:16

want to hire a contractor or their first employee, uh, there's going to be a lot of

11:20

people looking because of that, you know?

11:23

Uh, so I think there's lots of benefits from it.

11:26

Uh, it was, it, it sucked for all sorts of other reasons, but in terms of, you know,

11:32

maybe what we care about, which is more indie companies and our indie companies.

11:38

having a better chance, an amplifying, you know, those kind of opportunities.

11:43

It was good for that, for sure. Mario: Yeah.

11:46

Yeah, Yeah. For sure.

11:49

I I've seen, uh, just, uh, switching gears a little bit here.

11:52

I've seen some of the, uh, new features you've been releasing

11:55

with transistor, uh, really, really great stuff.

11:59

Really good stuff. Justin: yeah. Thanks. Yeah. It's felt, it's felt

12:02

awesome. We, Jon and I had our, founder

12:04

retreat in, uh, when was that?

12:07

Yeah, we went skiing. I, took Jon to the, the COVID capital of British Columbia.

12:14

Um, so yeah, we had that.

12:17

I now I can't even remember. I think that was in January.

12:20

And, since then, I mean, things have been kind of bubbling.

12:25

We'd been fairly gentle with ourselves.

12:28

Through 2020 and then 2021, we hired Helen and then Jason.

12:34

So Helen does customer success for us. Full-time she's in the UK and Jason's in Ohio and he's really senior,

12:41

developer, uh, mostly on the backend, but Jon had worked with him before.

12:45

And so we, we knew we would have more bandwidth for staff that we

12:49

hadn't been able to tackle before. And I think we were both just kind of ready to start cranking on stuff again.

12:57

And, websites was the kind of embarrassing feature for transistor.

13:02

It was just like, they weren't that good.

13:04

I didn't like promoting it. you know, it was, I mean, it was cool to see what people did with that initial

13:10

version of podcast websites, but, we definitely needed to have something new.

13:15

So podcasts websites is the most recent that we just we're working on right now.

13:20

and then dynamic audio insertion was before that.

13:23

And I was like another project that we thought we're just never gonna be

13:26

able to do that, you know, have these basically dynamic ad campaigns where

13:30

you can say here's pre-roll audio or mid-roll audio, and then you can have

13:35

it apply to all of your episodes. So there's a, you know, a little campaign and

13:39

certain points throughout all your episodes.

13:41

And it was just like, we can't do that. Alan: It's just way out of the scope of what you,

13:45

it, Justin: It's way out of scope. Yeah.

13:48

But the cool thing, especially for Jon and I, who are kind of hesitant to hire,

13:54

it's been having Helen and Jason, like these two people who are enthusiastic

13:59

about bringing new stuff into the app.

14:02

it kind of gave us this whole new energy

14:04

that I don't think we would have had. Otherwise, so yeah, it's been awesome.

14:09

Alan: it's interesting going from that, like two person where, you know, I assume you and

14:12

Jon have a, you know, the, the amount of trust between

14:14

you two must be crazy higher. And you know that, you know, you're doing your thing, he's doing his

14:19

thing and it just kind of works out. You sync up occasionally bring in other people in that mix must always

14:24

be, I, I, I know how I'd feel. It'd be like, but how do I trust you?

14:28

And I'd want that kind of same relationship as well.

14:30

Whereas it's like, just do whatever you feel is necessary.

14:33

And let me know when you need something, right. It must be difficult finding that person.

14:37

Justin: I mean, it was probably most stressful before we hired them because,

14:42

you know, I mean, we had, well, the unknowns and even like financially,

14:47

like by that point, transistor, by the time we hired Helen transistor

14:51

was quite profitable, but it hadn't been profitable for like, you know,

14:55

five years We've been like Jon

14:58

and I both went full time in 2019.

15:02

Alan: still remember that episode when you've just been crazy.

15:06

How is this like an overnight success thing?

15:08

Great. No, no. You got been there for the long haul, right?

15:11

I know that this took a long time to get going.

15:14

Right, Justin: Yeah. I mean, at the time it felt like it took forever for us to get to that point.

15:19

And, uh, in retrospect it actually happened fairly quickly, but, um, yeah,

15:25

I think a lot of our stress before we hired Helen and Jason was just like, we

15:30

knew we could afford it, but do we want it does this, what we want to invest in?

15:34

Cause it's like, you're investing in this for a long time and

15:37

COVID had just happened. And you know, we had that thought of, you know, like, thank God we don't

15:42

have employees during this because maybe we'd have to let people go.

15:45

And, yeah. So I think we had some of that stress and then.

15:49

Yeah, there's just always this unknown of like, what's it gonna be like to add more

15:52

people to this mix, but Helen had been working with us on a part-time contract

15:57

basis already for quite a while, and I'd known her forever through Mega Maker yeah.

16:04

Uh, probably as long as Jon I've known Helen.

16:07

And so, you know, that felt like,

16:10

Alan: Just kind of a natural progression, right? Justin: yeah, not, not a big jump there.

16:15

And Jon had worked with Jason before.

16:17

I didn't know him, but, honestly, a lot of that was knowing that it would

16:22

probably be good for Jon to have someone that could work alongside him.

16:26

Um, even for his enjoyment and, you know, mental health and everything

16:32

else, like just to feel like. Someone else can look at his code and it's not all resting on his shoulders.

16:39

Um, if it felt like that would be a good move.

16:41

So, uh, and in both cases, it's just been unbelievable.

16:45

Like both of them are incredible and to see what we've achieved

16:50

already is just kind of amazing.

16:53

And it doesn't feel like we're like, grinding super hard either.

16:57

It feels like we have a nice pace of everything.

17:00

Like, you know, it's not like things got, things just are kind of natural.

17:06

Rhythm is pretty similar, but we're just getting way more

17:09

done. Alan: Yeah. I mean, just, just uncoupling that one person from development

17:14

and one person from everything else is like a huge relief.

17:18

I can imagine. It's just like, yeah, I'm not responsible for everything anymore.

17:21

It's just, you know, there's certain stuff, which, and as you said, it keeps, yeah.

17:26

Keeps you saying right. Justin: Yeah.

17:28

Yeah, It's it's on. And we have a staff meeting every Thursday and it's just kind of nice

17:34

having it's almost like when it was just Jon and I, it was easier and

17:38

I, for him and I to not show up for stuff, uh, but now we have these

17:42

other people that are depending on us. And so it's like, well, we got to show up on Thursday or I'll look

17:48

like a doofus, you know, if I don't make it to my own staff meeting.

17:52

So, uh, that part too, just having, we're now accountable to these other people.

17:58

Um, yeah, Mario: yeah, Think you have

18:01

responsibilities now. Justin: yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

18:05

And it's just nice. It's nice having other people there, you know, I think this

18:09

is probably like four or five people is like the optimal kind of team size.

18:15

Alan: I can imagine if it feels just about right.

18:17

Doesn't it, it says for this kind of product is, this is what always, um,

18:21

again, I think I've, I've been around this world for too long to think, to

18:25

imagine like transistor growing into like 20 people, 30 people, you, it,

18:29

you can't what, how, what, what they do

18:32

Justin: I can't Alan: no, you just kind of imagined it, right? I mean, you know that the industry, obviously other

18:37

people do it and the industry could probably support it, but it's like,

18:40

is that the company you want to run is that the life you want to lead?

18:43

Probably not. Justin: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's yeah.

18:46

I mean, the, I can't, because I don't actually know, there's not a clear path

18:55

to capturing 20 times more market share.

18:59

Alan: Right. Justin: Like I think transistor has maybe, I don't know, two, 3% of the

19:05

paid podcast hosting market and.

19:09

You know, I'm hoping that we can get back to higher growth percentages

19:14

and a lot of unlocking that was like, we need to unlock podcasts websites.

19:18

We've got this next thing we're working on is we're going to allow anybody to

19:23

use the podcast website feature for free.

19:25

You can just insert your existing RSS feed.

19:28

And we think that's going to be like, that could be an

19:31

unlock, a ton of growth for us. Cause we'll have this like freemium product that if you already have

19:36

a podcast, you just put in your RSS feed and then it, rolls out

19:41

a transistor website for you. That's sponsored by transistor, but then you're in the product.

19:46

So people will be able to see like analytics, they'll click on the

19:49

analytics tab and it'll say, well, if you were on transistor, you

19:52

could see analytics like these. And there'll be able to click on the episodes tab and they'll say, well, if

19:56

you were on transistor, you'd be able to, you know, see episodes like this.

20:00

So we're really excited about. But like 20 times growth so we could grow like to 20, 30 people.

20:08

Alan: Yeah. Justin: I don't think so. Mario: Yeah.

20:11

So is this a free account at all?

20:13

They'll be able to do is just have the website

20:16

Justin: yeah, Mario: Okay. Even if they're hosting their

20:20

podcast elsewhere. Justin: Like if

20:23

they're hosting it on anchor and they just don't want that crappy anchor website,

20:27

they can, they can put their anchor RSS feed in this new thing and it'll create

20:33

them a transistor website and we're launching some new templates, soon.

20:37

So right now we have one new one and then the classic one, but we're going

20:41

to have more looks and things they can choose, but then it'll have a banner

20:46

at the bottom saying if it's free saying, Hey, you know, this podcast

20:50

hosting websites provided by transistor

20:53

Mario: Yup. Yup. Totally. Justin: So we'll get some advertising that way, but then

20:58

also it's, it's like a way for

21:01

us to reach out to all these people hosting on Libsyn and anchor and

21:05

everywhere Alan: I mean, especially if people are sharing on social media or any

21:08

way, you know, that they're sharing links to that new episode and things.

21:11

That's a perfect way for you to get potential new customers

21:14

to Justin: Yeah. Alan: It's nice. Mario: That's really smart.

21:17

That's a Justin: well, the biggest thing is like, I want to be able

21:20

to get people who are using other products to try us out in a non douchey way.

21:26

You know, like, uh, one of our competitors, a cast just got, uh, you can

21:31

see how people react to things and they, they, they took the email address that is

21:35

embedded in the RSS feed of every podcast.

21:38

And just spammed everybody saying, Hey, it looks like you're on transistor.

21:41

Do you want to switch to a cast? And the blow back from the.

21:46

It was clear, like we do, we don't want to do anything like that.

21:49

Like people did not like it. And, um, I don't even know how effective it was for a cast, but this

21:55

feels like the perfect Trojan horse.

21:58

It's like, we're giving something people really want, which

22:01

is a nice podcast website. And now all of a sudden they're in the product and we can just say,

22:06

Hey, if you want to switch, you just click this button and then you can switch.

22:11

Alan: Exactly. Look, there you go.

22:13

Justin: yeah, all they need to do is forward their old

22:16

RSS feed and it's, it's done.

22:18

Right. Alan: Very nice. Justin: So, yeah, that's coming soon.

22:22

And, it's going to be, I mean, you never know, you always

22:25

Alan: Yeah. Justin: are going to be massive and then you launch

22:27

them. Mario: Uh, it's that's, that's awesome. It's been, it's been a lot of fun to see you, grow and, uh, get

22:34

to the point where you are now. Cause I remember I started.

22:38

Uh, I found out about you from a podcast that I listened to

22:42

Uh, you did an interview. I think it was The Changelog.

22:46

uh, and it was when you were

22:48

doing the a hundred things in a year.

22:51

I think it was. Um, Justin: What a mistake that was

22:59

Mario: I bet it was super challenging, but you know, that gave you a lot of exposure though.

23:04

And, and that's how I found out about you and I,

23:07

and I thought, wow, this is, this is Alan: I may be the same, actually.

23:10

I did that. that could be, yeah, it rings a bell,

23:13

Mario: Yeah, Justin: Yeah, I mean, Mega Maker.

23:15

So the mega maker community was originally called product people.

23:21

And before that it was called JFD

23:23

I, and, Alan: I

23:25

remember that as well. Wow. Mario: The NSF

23:28

name? Justin: yeah. And so the, there was an evolution

23:32

there. yeah, I mean, it's always hard to say what, got you here, it's

23:37

hard to evaluate what of that was necessary and what was unnecessary.

23:41

And, uh, for sure, like, I don't know what, how everything links up,

23:47

but the big movements in my journey have all been related to connecting

23:53

with people and doing things.

23:56

And so, you know, like I connected with Jon.

23:59

At this conference, but the reason I connected with Jon at that conference is

24:03

that Chase Reeves invited me to go to it.

24:06

And the reason Chase Reeves invited me to go to it is he had invited

24:10

me to be on a panel in Las Vegas. And the reason he had done that is because he had read my, this is a webpage article.

24:17

And the reason he had read it is because he saw it on hacker news.

24:21

It there's like this sequence of events

24:25

that without doing things and connecting with people, the

24:30

other moves wouldn't be possible.

24:33

So yeah, it's, it's one reason I'm still so excited about Mega Maker is that,

24:40

I mean, even like we hired Helen because I've known her forever,

24:44

just having a network of people that you know, and who know you

24:50

and being able to access all sorts of different skillsets and.

24:54

you know, other things, it's just like a super power.

24:57

Alan: mean, I think one of the really nice things about Mega Maker

25:00

versus, you know, um, uh, I'm just looking at my slack.

25:02

There's, I'm probably in like 20 different slack say, uh, and,

25:05

uh, Mega Maker is kind of unique.

25:08

And I think this is because of the type of people that a

25:11

it's a paid, community. So there's like a, a certain bar that you it's like, you've gotta be

25:15

willing to make a commitment here. Um, but also, you know, the fact that everybody in there is trying to do

25:22

something and, uh, most of the time on their own or with somebody else,

25:27

and there's this desire to, to help others and to, to be part of something.

25:32

Whereas, you know, I mean, very large accelerator slack over

25:36

that, that I was involved in. And it's almost like a broadcast mechanism.

25:40

It's a very different. Community they've got going on there.

25:43

There's not the same, like, you know, like who can help all, like, I'm

25:47

interested in this and people chip in. It's very much like I'm doing this, I'm doing this, I'm doing, it feels more

25:52

like a sales channel than, than a natural support network, which, you know, kind of

25:57

Mega Maker is definitely unique in that.

25:59

Justin: Yeah. Oh, that's good to hear. I mean, that's the idea, right?

26:02

Is that it, it, uh, and I still think it's a super power.

26:06

Like there's so many times in the transistor slack where I'm like,

26:11

we're trying to figure something out and I'm just like, I'm just going

26:13

to go over to Mega Maker and ask. And then what would take us days to figure out somebody.

26:19

In the community can just help us out with right away.

26:22

It's like it's such a advantage.

26:24

It's like a secret weapon. And, even like, there's some people who aren't super active every month,

26:30

but I remember who they are and I can be like, ah, who was that, that,

26:37

you know, has expertise in this area?

26:39

Or it can connect us with this person or whatever, and to remember, and

26:43

to be able to seek them out and DM them. it's

26:46

just, Yeah. there's nothing like it. Alan: Yeah. I mean, I think it is difficult also.

26:50

I mean, it's something I suffer from a lot is it's difficult to ask for help

26:53

just because it's like, you know, is this a, is this a stupid question?

26:56

You know, B you know, like who cares, what I'm doing?

26:59

And it is often a very difficult hurdle to jump over and put it.

27:05

So it's nice to see other people doing it and thinking, okay,

27:07

I should probably try that. And I know there's a million times I should have, and, you know, I should do.

27:14

And just say like, you know, what, what what's other, what's sort of people's

27:17

opinions about what I should do here. You know, like, as I mentioned before, you know, this whole thing

27:21

about like, my product is like, whoa, who do I talk to this about?

27:24

And it's, um, it's like, what do I do next?

27:26

Where do I go? And you know, it's, especially when you're on your own.

27:29

And especially when you're, you know, a few thousand miles away from other

27:33

people who are doing this, you get caught up in your own like thought patterns.

27:37

And that can be dangerous. Justin: yeah.

27:40

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I understand that feeling of like, not wanting to ask people.

27:46

but over time I've definitely trained myself.

27:49

Like my cause Jon is his first instinct.

27:53

Isn't always to ask people and I just, for me, it's, it's become such a hack

27:57

that I'm just like, let's just ask, uh,

28:00

Mario: I think that's a, that's a general trait.

28:04

If you will, of developers Justin: Yeah.

28:07

Mario: we all tend to, you know, just a few more

28:09

minutes. I can figure it out. I, you know, Alan: people that, you know, that there's, uh, whatever the,

28:13

the, the, the traits, how the tendencies are, what,

28:15

whatever reason it is, people who are doing this kind of thing on their own, we're doing it on our own

28:20

because we want to do it on our own.

28:23

Right. It's not like I want to be part of a 20 person team and we can build

28:27

the thing and I'll do this, but it's like, no, I can do the whole thing.

28:30

How are you going? Actually, I don't know this cause somebody helped me is like

28:34

a, it's a difficult thing to do Justin: Yeah.

28:36

It's it's underrated though. Alan: Oh, absolutely.

28:39

Absolutely. Justin: also, I mean, I shouldn't, I, I, maybe not everyone can do this and

28:44

maybe it would turn out different for other people, but I found, uh, especially

28:49

even leaning into that vulnerability.

28:52

I just don't know, I need help. And, I've even been willing to play, uh, the idiot more than I am

29:00

in order to seek help, because it's just leaning into that and being

29:05

like, yeah, I don't know everything.

29:09

And, I just wanna, I want to be curious.

29:11

I want to, I want to be open to, other people might have

29:15

the answer that I don't have. And instead of me having to go through a lot of pain to get

29:19

there, I can just like reach out. I think the other thing that really, the other thing, reason

29:25

I'm ex I'm passionate about that.

29:28

I'm trying to teach this to my kids too, because it feels like I learned

29:32

this too late is one thing that really unlocked my potential was.

29:38

People like Adam Wathan and Taylor Ottewell kind of like showing me their

29:45

bank account how eye opening that was to see how well they were doing.

29:53

And that's really what unlocked my, this, kind of maniacal

29:58

focus I have on the market.

30:00

It's all about the market. It's about market demand.

30:04

It's about how many people are actively searching for this, because I saw

30:10

it with Adam and Taylor in this.

30:13

Incredibly like their dollars.

30:16

I could just see the dollars shooting into their bank account.

30:19

And that was them being open and vulnerable with me and me in some ways,

30:25

being willing to ask, like, what's going?

30:27

on there And how are things going? And they're like, oh, I'll

30:29

show you. And it's like, Alan: Oh, I mean, we do get caught up in this again, it's difficult to

30:37

translate what you see on Twitter and other networks and especially with the,

30:42

the whole, um, investment things being the way it is, you know, there's just

30:45

numbers and the meaningless, and you think, you know, and there's a, the

30:48

pre fixed preconception of how much you should be earning as a developer.

30:53

Right? I mean, yeah, it's a lot higher now. It's not great if you're in Japan, but that's what, that's what you should be

30:59

earning as a person writing software. And it's difficult sometimes to, to connect the two it's like,

31:04

well, there's all this money. You need that money to make big companies.

31:06

They make the company make some money and you get this much, um, yeah.

31:09

To realize, especially when you are interested and you want to do

31:13

it all, and you want to build a, a small, sustainable, lifestyle.

31:18

It doesn't have to be on a really tight budget.

31:20

Right. Justin: Yeah. And, and also to be okay with, I mean, so much of what we expect or desire or seek.

31:29

I mean, there's a, there's a negative side to this too, which is you

31:33

compare yourself to other people and feel shitty when you don't match up.

31:38

But for me, I mean, a lot of my friends and peers make

31:42

significantly more money than I do. but there was a point, like there was a point where I

31:48

felt shitty being Nathan Barry's friend,

31:50

because it was just like this, this kid is just doing so

31:54

good. And I just can't. Alan: I'm a complete failure.

31:56

What am I doing? Justin: get there. Um, but there was a threshold like once transistor started

32:02

it and started doing well. And you know, I started doing both Jon and I like, this is the best

32:08

money we've ever made in our lives. it's not Nathan Barry money.

32:12

It's not Taylor Outwell money. It's not even like Marie Pulin, she's got this notion course.

32:17

And I think she probably makes more money than I do from transistor.

32:21

but there was this threshold I cross where like, it's like, this

32:25

is giving me an incredible life.

32:28

And these other people just inspire me now as opposed to feeling bad.

32:33

And I know that's hard to balance, but overall, I think

32:37

it's been inspirational to me. And what kind of unlocked it?

32:40

I felt crappy before, because it was like, Well, I'm never going to do anything like

32:45

Nathan, you know, all I'm just garbage.

32:48

Uh, but now that, what, what I think what clicked for me was

32:55

it's the market, it's the market.

32:58

You've got to look for evidence of demand.

33:01

People actively waking up every single

33:05

day, go into Google.

33:08

There's a new person searching for podcast hosting, you know, like that.

33:13

and, and when, uh, when you can see it and when you can feel it

33:16

and, and it's also like, you can feel it in terms of its magnitude.

33:20

Like when Adam Wathan said he was going to do this refactoring

33:23

UI thing, I was like, oh my God.

33:25

That's like, Jarrod Drysdale is bootstrapping design, but new.

33:30

And for this whole new market, that's never heard of Jarrod Drysdale.

33:35

And Adam's also got this, a bigger audience, and he's also got the

33:40

excitement of the Laravel community.

33:42

You can just see how all of those are going to magnify this

33:46

thing that people already want, which is, you know, I'm a

33:49

developer and I want to get better at Alan: Yup. It's interesting.

33:52

It's almost like, you know, being part of the original.

33:56

The original web developer kind of world, especially with

34:00

the post .com bubble burst.

34:02

Um, it was, you know, that was when my first product that I

34:06

sold that I, you know, was like, hold on, I can do this on my own.

34:09

I can build sites, I can build things.

34:12

And so, you know, that was early two thousands and it was, I remember then,

34:16

you know, like I had a photo sharing, mobile photo sharing application site.

34:20

This was before flicker before anything

34:23

else that followed. And the fact then, you know, you almost felt you couldn't do what other

34:28

people were doing because the market was saturated.

34:30

And I remember, you know, my thing when flicker came out, oh,

34:33

flicker sold to Yahoo for what, $35 million, I think at the time,

34:37

which is just outrageous obscene. And that's like, and it was like, well done, but we can't compete with

34:41

that, that the photo sharing market is finished because flicker own it.

34:45

And it's kind of, I mean, the same thing with friends, um, my space.

34:49

We Justin: yeah, Mario: Oh, yeah. Alan: I'm friends though.

34:51

And I'll arrest you. You think the social media market?

34:53

Oh, that's it. No one can compete with Facebook now. Right.

34:55

And, uh, it, whereas, you know, almost the opposite is true.

34:59

You want to be looking, hold on. That huge people are interested in this industry, this market, and

35:03

they're actively searching for it. And they're probably not entirely happy with the things they're doing or

35:07

they're looking for a different take on it. So Justin: yeah.

35:10

If anyone's looking for flicker alternative, um, w I mean,

35:15

flicker in those early startups are a little bit trickier because.

35:21

At the time, it wasn't like a lot of people were paying for

35:24

Alan: Right. No, there was no money. That's

35:26

all, as I found out. Justin: So what the challenge back then was like, you literally had

35:31

to get this, like shoot a straight arrow, get a tech crunch, article,

35:35

meet the right people and hope that one

35:38

of the, you know, three or four bigger companies at the time would

35:42

acquire you Alan: exactly. That, That was. it. That was.

35:45

Justin: But now it's changed.

35:48

I mean, Alan: Yeah. Justin: even like the progression of everything's just more mature,

35:54

these categories are more mature. SAS,

35:57

as a concept is more mature. The billing is

35:59

easier that like there's so many more advantages for Indies

36:03

Alan: Yeah. There's just so many more people. I mean, that's the crazy thing as well.

36:07

Everyone was just still using dial-up and you know, you're lucky if they check their

36:11

email once a week, you know, Justin: Yeah.

36:13

well, well, do you guys have kids. Alan: if your one,

36:15

Mario: I don't, Justin: Okay. So how old is your kid?

36:20

Allen 11. See, I had this thought with my daughter, my daughter's 19, and I showed

36:26

her, I had her doing a little writing project for me and a research project.

36:30

And I showed her reform by Peter soon.

36:33

And she was like, oh, this is cool. I've never seen anything like this

36:36

before. And in my mind, I'm like Typeform, Woofu

36:41

Alan: a 50. Justin: But, But, it just reminded me that every day there's thousands of new

36:48

customers coming online in gen Z who have never heard of any of these other things.

36:54

And they're going to just be like, their boss is going to give them an assignment.

36:57

Like, Hey, do a research project. You're probably going to need a survey tool.

37:00

And they go, okay, well, best survey tool.

37:03

Or they talked to their friends, what survey tools do you recommend?

37:05

Or they, you know, so people are, you know, there's brand

37:09

new customers born every day. And then the other thing is, there's people like us who are

37:14

re-evaluating purchases, like how

37:16

many project management apps have the three of us used

37:20

in the context of our whole career, you know, as

37:24

Mario: Exactly. Alan: And that's a crazy thing. And you see someone like

37:26

Monday spending literally bazillions on like advertise me, like

37:30

put project management is done, right?

37:32

No, probably not. Justin: But it's not now every market and every category has its own dynamics.

37:39

It has, there's a shape of demand there.

37:42

Like I think project management in particular is probably pretty

37:45

challenging, but there's sometimes an angle for an indie to get in there.

37:50

Some categories I think are easier for Indies to get into than others.

37:55

But the other thing is like

37:57

somebody might've tried it five years ago and everybody was

38:01

like, well, that didn't work. But the truth is that now it might be the right time.

38:05

Alan: Yeah. Justin: Um, to try it again and, you know, like form software, maybe that

38:10

wouldn't have worked five years ago, but now it's like, Typeform is actually old.

38:16

Now Mario: Yeah. Yeah.

38:18

Justin: we think of Typeform as the new kid on the block, but it's, it's, it's old.

38:23

And so that that's the other thing is, and transistor benefited from this.

38:27

honestly it was actually, it was nice that transistor came out when it did, because

38:31

then, you know, a few months later, a bunch of other podcast hosting platforms

38:36

came out, but it was nice being the first of the new kid on the block, like that

38:41

whole batch, because there was just a lot of people who are waiting for the space to

38:47

get kind of freshened up. And, you know, they'd been

38:50

using Libsyn for 10 years and they're like, man, I just, what I like

38:53

something different than this. Alan: Especially since, yeah.

38:55

It's not going anywhere. It's not progressing. It's become like the established it's VC.

38:59

IBM. Right. Justin: Yeah. Yeah.

39:02

It's just like older or whatever. yeah.

39:04

So Typeform is 2012.

39:06

It's 10 years old. Mario: it is. Yeah.

39:09

Alan: That's crazy. Mario: been around for awhile. Alan: I just said, this still feels like, oh

39:12

my God, that's new right now. Justin: know, I think of it as new as well, but it's it's, I think there's a lot of,

39:19

this is like, like Calendly is 2010

39:23

and so 12 years later, not a bad time to start savvy Cal because Calendly

39:30

spent all this money and time carving out the category, but now there are

39:36

people searching, Calendly alternatives.

39:39

And, um, there's just your, your, your pathway to money

39:45

and customers like for Derek.

39:47

I think, you know, he could have asked himself.

39:51

How many people do. I know that use Calendly.

39:54

I mean, he personally, might've known 40 people and you just like to make a

39:57

spreadsheet of all 40 people, and then you just like contact each one, one by one.

40:02

That's what I did with transistor. So like everybody, I knew I had a podcast, I was like, emailed them and said,

40:07

Hey, we're about to launch this thing.

40:10

Would you be interested in switching for an early access price?

40:14

And that got us our first, you know, a hundred customers

40:17

probably. Alan: And that's

40:20

what you should be doing Mario. Right. Because you've got a launch soon, right?

40:24

Mario: I'm taking notes. I'm taking notes. Justin: Well, and you too, Alan, like I think like,

40:29

that's, that's the way you could really test out,

40:32

like really push dot plan is go make a list of everybody, you know, that's using something.

40:40

And just go, okay, well, I'm going to reach out to these people and see if

40:43

there's any chance that they would switch. And that will give you your answer.

40:47

People would be able to tell you like, ah, like it's different than asking

40:51

people if it's a good idea, because if you ask people to switch, they're like

40:55

honest, you know, I ask people to switch.

40:57

So maybe I asked 200 people if they'd switched to transistor.

41:00

And a hundred said, yes, um, you know, a hundred people were like, no,

41:05

it's just, I don't want to go through the hassle or I like where I'm at

41:08

or your website socks or whatever.

41:11

Like you, you heard it right away. And, uh, getting those answers I think is helpful.

41:19

And you might also be able to, um, I always like pick

41:23

up on these little anecdotes. So when I was talking to Taylor Ottewell, he was saying that

41:29

they use base camp for one reason only.

41:32

So they pay for base camp for one reason only.

41:34

And that's to do these end of the day.

41:37

Check-ins like, what did you work on?

41:40

Alan: Yeah. I mean, that's exactly dot right there.

41:42

That's the whole point is end of the day check-ins of

41:44

what you've done and that's it. Justin: Yeah, so, well, that's what made me think of it is that if I don't know

41:49

how widespread that use is, but if, if those are the kind of, uh, anecdotes and

41:57

things I'd be pursuing, like, uh, you know, if there's people out there that are

42:01

doing this then maybe I should, you know,

42:06

be trying to connect with people like Alan: Right, right.

42:08

As opposed to trying to convince new people to,

42:11

to sign up. I mean, this is the thing is like, if you don't

42:13

already do this suddenly asking, uh, a company of 10 people right today, we're

42:18

going to start doing end of the day. Check-ins everyone's like, you want me to do what?

42:21

I already use five pieces of software, you know? And it's kind of like this, this, this hard sell of like getting

42:26

them to change their behavior. But if people are already doing this, then getting them to try

42:30

something new is probably easier.

42:32

You would hope, right? Justin: Yeah.

42:35

Yeah. And, and even like, um, I would, if I was you Allen, I would go to that tweet

42:44

that I made where I think I shared,

42:47

oh, I do those check-ins. And in Mega Maker like yellow, green, red, like, how are you feeling

42:53

Mario: Yes. Justin: it tweeted that, like I just tweeted, how are you feeling?

42:57

But it would be interesting to see how people who responded

43:04

to that and how they responded. And I don't know what the in is there.

43:09

Those are the kinds of things I would be doing as I I'd just

43:11

be like fishing around, seeing like who's already in motion.

43:17

And is there a way I can connect with them?

43:19

and you really want to invalidate your idea as quickly as possible.

43:23

Like if it's not going to work, you want to know fairly quickly.

43:28

I know that's hard like Joshua, Andrew tin, and I are working on

43:31

this other product Meeps and we just haven't found the fit yet.

43:37

And, I'm, I mean, for me, I, I can take more time on this one because

43:42

transistors going well, but you know, eventually if we can't find it, we got

43:46

to cut it loose because you know, you can keep trying to maneuver something

43:51

and add new stuff and whatever.

43:54

And if you, if you're just not finding that, that rushing river of customer.

43:59

Interest it's it's best to just

44:02

Alan: Hmm. Mario: the line outside of the coffee shop, right?

44:05

Like you, you, like, you usually say, yeah,

44:07

Justin: Yeah. Where can you see it? And I'm hoping it's

44:09

there. I mean, I had some instincts that maybe there was something

44:13

there. so I still hope it's there, but

44:16

Alan: Again, in a similar way. Yeah. You've

44:18

got to find that that's something

44:20

about it that, that people that resonates with people, right.

44:23

It's like building an online community. Well, how's that different from this, this and this and this?

44:27

If it's something I think I remember you saying something can a.

44:32

Uh, it clicking for me what you're trying to do with regards to like, you

44:36

know, memberships with newsletter pay, paid newsletters, I think which okay.

44:39

Is there is a segment everybody knows already, but when you say, oh yeah, okay.

44:43

It's that plus because as a community, whether it, okay, I get it now and

44:46

it's almost like I need to find the same kind of hook is something

44:51

that people go, oh, I get it. It's it's like, it's, it's this thing.

44:54

Right. Um, and as you said, it got already understand that and already be

44:58

either doing it or willing to do it.

45:01

Not somebody who you've got to convince that.

45:03

Cause that's not Justin: Yeah, I think they already have to be doing it.

45:06

They already have to be doing something about it. That's the challenge.

45:09

Like what, what I thought.

45:12

Okay. Like online community building is like super hyped right now, especially during

45:17

COVID like circle had raised all this money and just seemed like every, and I

45:22

had personally experienced the power of community with Mega Maker and then with

45:28

this coworking place that we started, and then this meetup that I run locally

45:33

and I thought, well, this is perfect. Like I have these three use cases and I'd paid for member fall forever.

45:40

Right. I was one of their first users. So building an alternative to that felt like, okay, this will work.

45:47

But what we're learning is the dynamics in that particular space is that there's

45:51

just not that many people like me. Alan: I mean, I joined a couple of circle, um, groups, um,

46:00

It then not sticky. I mean, as in the slack is open all day, it's there.

46:05

It's okay. I mean, you know, I don't know.

46:07

It's about 15 slacks. I'll see a dot and if I've got time, I'll go and read it.

46:11

Especially if it's one of the channels, which I'm interested in one of the I'm

46:15

interested, where Circle it's, it's this idea of like, there's a thing over that

46:19

and you got to log in and there's, there's different accounts and it's just, you just

46:23

never do it and you'll get the email and you go, okay, you're ready to close it.

46:26

I mean, at the, at that, that difference between the, a community that feels alive

46:31

and one that feels like people check in on once a week, it's

46:34

Justin: Yeah. Well, I mean, that was our other thought was let's not build another circle.

46:39

Let's just make it easy for people to get people, to register and pay

46:43

for slack telegram discord groups.

46:46

Alan: right? Justin: And maybe that's what we need to get back to.

46:50

But again, there's just the number of people on earth that, are like me

46:57

that are doing that kind of thing. It's just smaller than the number of people who want to start a podcast, but

47:03

starting a podcast, the threshold to cross is just less because all you really

47:10

need to do to feel successful is to record an episode, upload it and publish it.

47:15

And then you kind of feel like you're a success Alan: Yeah.

47:18

Mario: Yeah. Alan: if you've gone and got not many listeners, right. It's

47:20

still Justin: yeah, totally. I mean, this is the MailChimp ConvertKit advantage too is just really, I mean,

47:27

if you put out a form and your mom's subscribes and you put out one newsletter,

47:32

you already kind of feel like you're in the game, but the, the threshold for.

47:38

Building the kind of momentum it would take to, to start a

47:41

community is just, or even a local meetup group is

47:46

just it's a higher Alan: I mean, I I've seen the same thing here.

47:49

You know, we started like, uh, a local how can use group and there's,

47:53

there was a peak when it was like, everybody's going, this is the thing.

47:57

And it can so quickly just disappear. It's just something that there's like a time and a place for it.

48:02

And then it worked and it's really difficult to keep that going.

48:04

It's just so easy for it to just fall apart and just disappear overnight.

48:08

And it's like a very fine balance.

48:11

And I think the same thing applies to online communities as well.

48:14

Um, but probably even harder because there's not a time and a date

48:18

where, you know, everybody goes and

48:20

that's it. So. Justin: But we know that there might be adjacent, for example,

48:25

there is, the market for.

48:29

Online membership directory software is a thing it's much more corporate, much

48:37

more, um, a lot of non-profits as

48:40

well. And we could go after

48:42

that if we wanted to. And, but,

48:45

Alan: you mentioned that I was always wondered how does cause transistor

48:49

supports private podcasts as well.

48:51

Right. You know, how do you find like companies using that for internal stuff quite often?

48:57

Or is it still quite niche? Is it, is it quite a strong part of your

49:00

customer base? Justin: I mean, there's quite a few, there's a lot of interest in it.

49:04

Um, and we have, I mean, there's a fair number of people who do it.

49:10

It's a lot in practice.

49:12

It's a lot more challenging than I think people think it's like

49:17

to do it well to do it in a way that actually gets engaged.

49:22

Uh, to do it once the champion has left the organization.

49:27

Um, and even like apple, so Apple's paid private podcasting feature.

49:33

I have to check the numbers on this, but as far as I know, they're pretty abysmal.

49:38

I still think there's opportunity in it, like linking up payments to pay a private

49:43

podcast is something we'd like to do, but it's still not like the rushing water of people wanting a podcast

49:50

that's in Spotify and apple podcasts. Like that is just a big, fast moving river and private podcasts.

49:57

there's significant momentum there. but, you know, if

50:00

I was to quantify it, I would say at most it's 20% of our business,

50:05

but that's probably Even that's high.

50:07

Alan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe there's the

50:09

whole merger of Meeps and transistor there.

50:12

The fact that, you know, I mean, when you, especially when you see podcasts, like,

50:15

you know, atp.fm that have this huge, very active member base, that are listener

50:20

base that, uh, just as invested in, you know, the back channel as they, I mean,

50:26

there's the, there's the bulk listeners. And then this is a really active, um, you know, back channel as well, you

50:31

know, merchandise and things like that. And it's, it's really interesting to see how that can,

50:35

um, happen as well. Right. Justin: The hard thing is, and maybe I'm forming a, a framework right

50:43

now as we talk, but the hard thing is you can't optimize a product

50:48

for the top 1% of that audience.

50:52

And so ATP is like an outlier, but, but it's so tempting to want to do that.

51:00

And especially in the pro-sumer space.

51:03

So like. You know, Fusioncast is in this, Transistor is in this, ConvertKit in

51:07

this Blogstatic is in this, you know, a lot of the Mega Maker type products

51:13

are in that category of prosumer.

51:16

Alan: Hmm. Justin: So much of your customer base is just getting

51:20

started and they're going to be able to do steps one through

51:25

three, and some of them will progress

51:29

into the 99th percentile Alan: Very few of them will, right?

51:32

Justin: But very few will. And this is like what we're seeing with, you know,

51:38

for years, people have been asking us for dynamic audio insertion and say, like

51:42

switching away from us to competitors

51:45

even. But we saw some trends just by waiting that, you know, people would switch to

51:51

mega, to megaphone to get, we have to have

51:54

dynamic ad insertion, and then six months later

51:57

they'd come back to transistor going, wow, we just didn't use it that much.

52:01

Alan: Yeah. Hey Mario, are we going to start selling mattresses?

52:03

What'd he say? Mario: Yeah.

52:07

I'm trying to think here. What, What plan B,

52:10

Alan: Um, Mario: is going to be? Justin: it's, it's super cool.

52:12

I, I, I, think it's a great feature, but

52:16

it's for a smaller percentage of users and in our space, I mean, if you look

52:23

at ConvertKits, open MRR graph, and you look at, you know, how much new

52:29

MRR they're bringing in every month and how much churn they're getting.

52:32

It's a substantial amount of turn and it works for them because

52:38

they just have thousands of people lining up to their coffee shop

52:40

every day that want to sign up. But they're dependent on that.

52:44

And Transistor's similar, tailwind UI is similar.

52:49

You just have all of these kinds of pro-sumer apps where you

52:53

really need a volume of people. Creating accounts every day.

52:58

Um, and you're going to get a substantial, not, I mean, it's obviously your growth is

53:04

higher than your turn, but comparatively churn is higher in those kinds of products

53:11

than not. Alan: Yeah. I mean, any product that requires you to spend time and effort.

53:17

I mean, this is the fascinating thing about both, you know, Fusioncast

53:20

and Transistor, and the things like this is it, isn't a passive thing.

53:23

You actually have to make a serious effort to make something happen.

53:28

Right. And the, the, the result of that is, yeah, I've got five people

53:32

listening to me waffle on for an hour. there isn't an immediate payback.

53:36

There is a, there's an internal like, feel good thing, but it's um,

53:40

so as you said, you know, the market for those people, even creating a

53:43

newsletter, it doesn't happen by itself. Right.

53:45

It takes effort and long term thinking to make something happen.

53:50

And it's, it's, it's a huge barrier to entry for most people.

53:53

Right. Because they just don't have that kind of, um,

53:57

Justin: totally. I mean, if, if I could have built forge, I would have

54:02

like, that's the perfect business. It's like, it has an incredible amount of utility, like provision my servers

54:08

for me, but once I set it up, it just like every time I commit to get it,

54:13

you know, I don't need to log in for Mario: Yeah.

54:15

Yeah. it's just provides a lot of, benefit, a lot of value without you having

54:21

to commit a lot of time to use it. Cause you just, it's just running in the background and whenever you need it, you

54:26

just log in and do what you need to do. And that's it.

54:28

I be using it for years and it's Alan: those products that, that I see the thing on my

54:33

credit card every month, and I think haven't looked into six months, but I can't get rid of it because I need it

54:37

That was a great product. It's like, I just pay it because I have to that's it.

54:43

Justin: Yeah. I mean, those are great products.

54:45

And especially once you become an SMB or a medium sized business or a large

54:49

business, you just need those products.

54:52

Like those are the oil, those are the grease that grease the

54:54

wheels of your, of your company.

54:57

And so, you know, it's a little bit of a harder ask for the marketing person to go

55:03

to the CEO and say, can we start a podcast than it is for a developer to go to the

55:07

CEO and say, I need the software to save

55:10

me hours of time provisioning servers.

55:13

And it's like that's a no brainer, you Alan: Which again comes back to light dot plan.

55:16

That's like asking everybody in the company to do a thing is like, oh God, it's like, a really hard

55:21

ask. Justin: Yeah. That, Mario: yeah.

55:25

Alan: I think is why you're right. Like looking for people who already are doing this or something.

55:28

Justin: yeah. You want to see who's in motion and then how hard it is to get those people

55:33

like, that was the other kind of. light bulb I had, when I was working for a project management software

55:38

company, I'm doing all this marketing and to learn I'm doing all these phone

55:42

calls, customer development, phone calls, and it's like, people are like,

55:47

you know, I demo the software and then they're like, okay, well, this is great.

55:50

I got to talk to my dev manager.

55:52

And then I got to talk to the CTO and then I got, I'm like,

55:56

we're, we're, not gonna, this isn't gonna work.

55:59

And then meanwhile, you know, I recorded a podcast with Nathan Barry

56:03

and he's like, yeah, people just keep signing up for ConvertKit.

56:07

And it was like, oh yeah, like you just have to convince the person

56:10

with the credit card who just, you know, it's like a blogger who's at

56:14

home and wants to reach more people.

56:17

And they just have their credit card at most.

56:19

The only person they have to talk to is their spouse.

56:21

Right. Mario: Right. Justin: Um, and there's pros and cons to both of these, but, the

56:27

certainly at a certain price point. If you want people to just, finding you on the internet and signing up, for

56:33

19 29, $49 a month, you want a certain amount of just volume that comes to

56:39

you and just does it automatically. And

56:42

if they need to talk to even, you know, more than one other person then,

56:46

uh, Alan: It's a significantly big ask, right.

56:50

As much as much from a Justin: well, and you realize it even like now that I have a

56:54

partner, like Jon does not like paying for a bunch of stuff.

56:57

And so I have to be very selective, you know, I'm using some

57:02

of my social capital every time I have to say, Hey, can we pay for H refs?

57:08

And he's like, well, what's that? I'm like, well, he's like, how much is

57:12

it? And I'm like, whatever it is 150 bucks a month, 150 bucks a month,

57:16

you know? Like, Alan: just do this right. Justin: he's like, well, can't you just do it another way.

57:22

And. You know, it costs me something every time

57:25

I want to bring a new tool on. Alan: mean, I guess, I guess this explains that the whole, as you said, prosumer

57:30

market, is that people that a wanting to

57:32

make their life better, um, through some form of entrepreneurship, even if that's

57:36

just starting a, you know, a mailing list, um, and are willing to commit it,

57:40

something to do that, not just like, you know, well, I'm bored one Thursday

57:44

afternoon or Thursday evening, and I did the thing and I forget about it.

57:48

No, it's, you're, you're willing to make an effort. Right. So that, by making that effort, they're willing to pay

57:52

something for that. So Justin: Yeah. I think it's underrated because people love having a project, like a project

58:00

it's you know, um, My wife's taking, uh, a yoga instructors course right now.

58:06

It's just like a fun project for her to go and do it.

58:10

And you know, some people start gardening really seriously,

58:13

and that's like their project. I have a garden, but I don't take it seriously, but somebody who takes

58:18

it seriously, they'll spend a lot of money and time doing that thing.

58:24

And there's levels of this, which go from, this is just a hobby I take

58:29

seriously, and I have the money to spend. But up to like, this is aspirationally something I want to be either a

58:35

side business or, a little side hustle or a professional activity.

58:41

I do like maybe blogging or podcasting that will benefit my career.

58:47

But won't immediately give me money to like, I hope this

58:51

makes me a full-time living. Like there's a whole threshold there.

58:54

A prosumer type products and I think

58:58

in the bootstrapping space. It's kind of under, It's massively underrated.

59:02

It's like people don't talk about it enough.

59:04

We talk about B2B as if it's like this like model it's like, so B2B is everything

59:10

from the person who's, selling a little course on the side all the way up to IBM.

59:17

Like that's B2B. Yeah.

59:20

It's just, I don't know that it, and, and,

59:23

like B to SMB, like what is that? Alan: I mean, this is kind of like goal of like, you know, I'm selling

59:27

B2B. That was where the big money is. And the pains

59:30

that come with that is crazy. Right. Or there's, there's, shiny consumer level stuff, which is fun to play with

59:35

it from a UI side, but you've got to get massive scale and just to have any

59:40

form of revenue from it whatsoever, but yeah, this kind of, prosumer market.

59:44

Yeah. that's Justin: And also to realize like the way we, the way we cut up these

59:49

categories just requires way more nuance.

59:52

Like it's not, it's not enough to just say, well, like every indie

59:56

hacker needs to go after B2B don't ever go to B to C and it's, and it's

1:00:01

like, well, we there's a spectrum of

1:00:03

opportunities. And the other thing is

1:00:06

Mario: levels. Justin: all the different levels and the shape of those markets and the

1:00:11

dynamics within those markets is what you should really be looking at.

1:00:14

Don't look for these broad generalizations, look for the specifics,

1:00:20

the specific shape of that market.

1:00:23

And if it's a good wave, you should go ride it.

1:00:26

But don't just like discount things because.

1:00:28

There B to C or, or look like B to C, uh, in the same way that you

1:00:34

shouldn't feel like you've got a nice check mark, just because you're

1:00:36

in B2B, B2B is a spectrum and you know, there's lots of bad

1:00:42

B2B opportunities. Alan: Again, like the the difference for me selling to, you

1:00:46

know, a, like a local eight person company here is like, even that has a significant amount

1:00:51

of back and forth and pain versus, um, you know, selling any form of

1:00:56

enterprise sales, which is like, well, I've got six months to a year and

1:00:59

I've got to pass all these ISO things. And it's like, it's never going to happen.

1:01:02

Right. That both a B2B, right. There's one

1:01:05

type of a business that is acceptable as others, which are just off the table

1:01:09

completely I'd have no Justin: Well, and I'm in,

1:01:12

I would love to know for Taylor and forge, how many of those users are hobby users.

1:01:19

Developers using it on their own servers at home.

1:01:23

And they're just doing it because it makes their lives better.

1:01:26

It makes them better developers. They want to support Taylor.

1:01:30

Like there's all these other jobs and how much of his revenue comes from actual

1:01:34

businesses like Titan who need it to

1:01:38

perform, you know, I'm sure there's lots,

1:01:41

but what's the breakdown Mario: Yeah.

1:01:44

Yeah. Alan: but the interesting thing is those, those, those people who are maybe hobbyist

1:01:48

right now probably have other jobs,

1:01:50

they will go on to, they have a career. Right. So they will definitely take that good experiences

1:01:54

with them though, as well. Right. Mario: yeah,

1:01:57

Justin: And that's the dynamic. Mario: Yeah, it's a spectrum.

1:02:00

for example, I've been using forge for years and, it's a hobby, I guess, in,

1:02:05

in some ways, As I've been working on all these side projects and I've been

1:02:09

running servers maintained through forge, Fusioncast is one of them.

1:02:14

And, uh, you know, I haven't made any significant revenue or no revenue at all

1:02:19

from, from any of this, but I've been a

1:02:21

customer for years, you know? So, So,

1:02:25

yeah, that's an interesting question. Like how, how, what, what are the levels that there's

1:02:30

Justin: And, and, and how do you quantify all of that?

1:02:32

So if, if Mario, all of a sudden launches, Fusioncast, and then Spotify comes and

1:02:37

buys it for a billion dollars, how would we quantify that investment in Forge when

1:02:42

you weren't making any money for years, but then it became a significant part

1:02:47

of your journey that led to that thing. You know what I mean?

1:02:50

This is why I think we got the, especially the bootstrap community.

1:02:55

We need way more nuance when we discuss these things.

1:02:59

It actually does matter.

1:03:03

The way we talk about things, the way we describe things, the way we justify

1:03:08

things, even in our own mind, these things matter because, um, if you're

1:03:14

just going to follow broad cliches, then you know, you're, you're missing

1:03:20

all of the actual stuff that real life has made out of, which is sure.

1:03:25

at one point I signed up for Memberful and I was not making any profit, but at

1:03:31

some point I crossed the threshold with Mega Maker where Mega Maker was making,

1:03:36

I dunno, $25,000 a year or something.

1:03:39

And now I think it averages something like 30, $40,000 a year.

1:03:43

So previously was I just like a consumer that Memberful shouldn't care about or.

1:03:49

Did those years or months I was using

1:03:51

it and not really, you know, just as a hobbyist actually

1:03:54

lead to something significant.

1:03:57

and I think there's a lot of stuff like Alan: But again, those people that actually started on that path and

1:04:01

made the effort to join Memberful and invested time in it.

1:04:04

Oh, likely even if not that one didn't

1:04:07

work, they're likely to have a path to success

1:04:09

more likely than someone who just didn't even try it. Right. Justin: yeah, exactly, exactly.

1:04:14

And at the end of the day, like the real thing, the only real thing that matters

1:04:19

is volume. this is a volume business and you need this constant flow of

1:04:25

interest, demand and customers.

1:04:28

And so whatever you can build that you like building that attracts a customer

1:04:34

that you like serving as long as there's enough of those customers coming in the

1:04:37

door every day, that's all that matters.

1:04:41

Mario: Yeah. That's the wave, right? The wave in

1:04:43

your analogy. Justin: Yeah.

1:04:46

Mario: I love that analogy by the way. it's perfect.

1:04:49

It's so spot on, uh, mark market is like surfing and, uh,

1:04:54

that constant flow it's those waves that you

1:04:57

you've gotta have a good enough wave to be able to do it.

1:05:01

Justin: yeah. And, encouraging. people to that was the other thing about

1:05:04

looking at Adam and Taylor is

1:05:07

just getting to see someone riding a bigger wave, inspired

1:05:11

me to want to ride bigger waves.

1:05:13

It was like, you know, why am I wasting time trying to make this

1:05:16

happen when I could have something that maybe isn't that, but is at

1:05:20

least something like that, you know?

1:05:24

Uh, and there's certain.

1:05:27

Again, it's not easy. If it was easy, then I would be a billionaire,

1:05:32

Alan: Yeah. Justin: but Mario: about Justin: it, Mario: this is easy.

1:05:35

Justin: but I do think there's ways we can

1:05:38

observe, like with Meeps, I'm observing.

1:05:41

Are we there yet? No, we don't have that natural pull yet.

1:05:47

And if we can't find it, we got to let it go.

1:05:49

And that's what we're searching for.

1:05:52

We're trying things that it's like, if we are just walking around in the woods and

1:05:57

we trip over a, uh, slow moving stream, we gotta be willing to move on from the

1:06:02

stream and look for the rushing river. Like that's another metaphor, like when you just want that flow of water

1:06:09

and, getting to see it demonstrated for me, like seeing what that looks like.

1:06:14

Mario: Yeah. Justin: Is the key. It's just like

1:06:18

thousands of people, and let's just say for most indie SaaS apps, I think it's going to

1:06:22

be, you're going to need hundreds of trials and thousands of trials.

1:06:27

If you're not, if you don't have credit card upfront. And I think, you know, transistor probably gets,

1:06:32

I don't know, we get hundreds of new trials every month and

1:06:35

75% of those people who

1:06:38

start a trial convert to a paid Alan: Right because you got credit card up front.

1:06:42

So there's, there's a there's inertia

1:06:44

that already, right? Justin: That's right.

1:06:46

That's right? They, Mario: More serious about Alan: Yeah.

1:06:49

Justin: they want it bad enough that they're willing to,

1:06:52

you know, put a credit card in and, and, and there's just some products

1:06:55

like this, like watch yourself and your friends sign up for things.

1:07:00

You know, at one point I was like, I'm not going to pay for

1:07:02

a Twitter thread writing tool.

1:07:05

And then enough people in my life were doing it.

1:07:08

And then I just found myself signing up for Typefully.

1:07:12

And it was there's like a momentum there.

1:07:15

That is interesting.

1:07:18

And what's frustrating is it's like, it's not equivalent to the amount of time you

1:07:22

put in or how complex the product is or, you know, the rules of, why people buy

1:07:29

and why people buy quickly and easily.

1:07:32

It's just kinda like, do they want it?

1:07:34

Mario: Yeah. There's all different reasons that there's, the, the

1:07:37

whole, uh, people like us do things like this , effect, right.

1:07:41

To, consider in that as well.

1:07:43

Justin: yeah, yeah. Alan: And I think that's what, you know, you, you, you mentioned,

1:07:46

you know, just kind of like trying to catch the zeitgeists, you know, but basically, I mean, this is why I find

1:07:52

Twitter, so fascinating addictive

1:07:55

it's this real-time, you know, flow of the world of a, okay.

1:08:00

Not everybody, but a good, significant chunk of, trends you can spot they're very early.

1:08:06

Um, Justin: Yeah. And on podcasts too.

1:08:08

Like, that's why I love listening to podcasts as people,

1:08:11

you know, Taylor, just like kind of offhand saying, this is how we use base

1:08:14

camp. what was the other thing? I, I hear people all the time, like, especially in these bootstrap

1:08:20

podcasts people all the time will mention, oh, I just tried out

1:08:23

this tool or I'm paying for this.

1:08:26

Those are to me are so interesting to hear people explain why they

1:08:31

just made a purchasing decision. And that's what we need to pay attention to is, what kinds of things

1:08:40

create that movement?

1:08:42

Like all of a sudden it's like everybody's

1:08:45

buying The Mom Test. Like, why is that part of it is because

1:08:50

yeah. And part of it is because it gets recommended and it gets recommended because it has a certain

1:08:55

utility, but it also has a certain thing about it that makes it easy to buy,

1:09:01

easy to read and then easy to recommend.

1:09:04

And I think there are like Typefully has that thing.

1:09:08

Like right now, reading Twitter threads is hot and the wave might not last

1:09:13

forever, but you there's, there's people actively searching for how do

1:09:18

I write better Twitter threads and, when there's that existing momentum,

1:09:23

like people are Googling that already, then you can kind of tap into

1:09:27

that, you know? Mario: Yeah, Yeah, For sure.

1:09:31

Justin, we've been going for a while and, uh, want to be respectful of

1:09:34

your time. Um, it's

1:09:37

it's great. We can go. Yeah, this is great.

1:09:41

We can go, we can go on for hours, but

1:09:44

Alan: I am on track with time zones as

1:09:46

well. So I'm just getting going. I'm just still waking up.

1:09:49

So it's easy to, it's easy to forget that everybody else

1:09:52

light at the end of the day. Justin: well, well, that was good.

1:09:55

That was a good part. One you'll you'll have to see if anybody listens

1:09:57

to this and then can have you back

1:10:00

Alan: So Mario, we should definitely put this out as like a special exception, rather than catching up with all the others.

1:10:04

Let's get this out. Mario: yeah. Oh

1:10:07

Justin: Yeah. Sorry. We didn't do any updates that I,

1:10:10

you guys, you guys, put a microphone in my face and I

1:10:14

just talked. Alan: That was the Mario: no, it's been great.

1:10:17

That that's, that's what Alan: It makes change from everybody hearing my voice all the

1:10:20

time. Mario: or mine.

1:10:26

Justin: no, this was fun. I, I like, I like getting together like this with people.

1:10:30

I haven't really connected with that much, but just like connecting with new people

1:10:34

and, to talk like, this is really fun for

1:10:37

me. it Mario: yeah. Justin: pumps me up.

1:10:39

Alan: Same. Mario: yeah, And I thought about. I thought about, um, you know, Hey, what did we talk about?

1:10:45

She would have like a, like a particular subject or, questions to

1:10:48

ask, but that's like the typical stuff.

1:10:51

And I thought maybe it's just better to just jump in and let's just

1:10:56

have a casual conversation and talk about whatever, you know,

1:10:58

talk shop and Alan: Oh, yeah. Cause cause all of us are

1:11:01

really stuck for things to talk about you know? Justin: Well, this is what's so great.

1:11:06

Is this like, Whenever people like us meet up in real life, you know,

1:11:12

uh, like there's those Mega Maker real life meetups that we've had,

1:11:18

at a conference or whatever is like, it's not like we have stuff to talk about because these are our people,

1:11:25

you know, this is what we it's like, just give me the avenue and

1:11:28

Alan: Yeah. Justin: enough, you know? Mario: Yeah.

1:11:31

I mean, it's the only chance that we get to talk to other like-minded people.

1:11:36

Um, you know, with a direct connection, right, because we do it online, all

1:11:39

the time, but, uh, opportunities like this where we can actually see

1:11:43

each other and talk to each other in real time, it's just awesome.

1:11:47

Uh, otherwise, you know, I don't really have anybody around other than my

1:11:52

wife, but it's that same, cause she's not in the same kind of circle.

1:11:57

Um, but, other than that, like, I don't really have

1:12:00

anyone else that I can talk to him that would

1:12:02

understand what's going on in, in this, uh,

1:12:06

aspect of my life. You know? Justin: totally.

1:12:08

Mario: this is amazing. Justin: Yeah. Mario: So we really appreciate your time and, uh,

1:12:15

joining us today with, uh, our 20th episode of indie maker journey.

1:12:20

Justin: Nice. Nice. Now you just got to make sure you get it

1:12:23

edited and published. That's Alan: let's get this

1:12:26

Mario: I know it's, it's, it's it's been a struggle, but we're, we're going

1:12:30

to do this one and then, um, jump

1:12:32

Alan: Yeah, we can get those. So, uh, and now, you know how great Fusioncast is.

1:12:36

You'll be at recommended to everybody, right? Justin: yeah,

1:12:40

Alan: it's just going to release the thing. I've got to end on that, Mario

1:12:44

Mario: Right. I know every episode.

1:12:48

No, that's good. Thank you. That's what I need.

1:12:50

I need, I need to be pushed. Um, but Yeah.

1:12:53

hopefully, uh, we'll get there, um, working towards that.

1:12:57

Yeah. I've frozen any work on the product itself.

1:13:00

I'm not doing any development at all. Uh, and hopefully there are no bugs that come up, you

1:13:05

know, that, I need to jump on. but Yeah.

1:13:08

otherwise I'm not doing any work at all on, on any features.

1:13:11

I'm just focusing on the other aspects Of the work that needs to be done so that I can launch

1:13:17

eventually so Justin: Nice.

1:13:20

Mario: Yup. Justin: us know how we can help when you're ready. Mario: Awesome.

1:13:22

Thank you so much. Alan: Awesome. Thanks so much for your time, just in a really appreciate it.

1:13:26

And that has been super interesting. Justin: Yeah.

1:13:28

Mario: All right. Thanks Justin. Justin: Yeah.