Episode Transcript
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0:08
From Sony Music Entertainment and Campside
0:10
Media, this is Infamous. I'm
0:13
Natalie Robamet. And I'm Vanessa
0:15
Grigoriadis. And welcome back to our show. Yes,
0:17
welcome.
0:18
So since we released our series on Kylie
0:20
Jenner over the past couple of weeks, which
0:23
you should go back and listen to now if you haven't
0:25
already, we've gotten a lot of feedback
0:27
from listeners. Yeah, and you all had a lot of questions
0:30
and a lot of thoughts. And a lot of them were actually
0:32
about another Kardashian, the original
0:34
Kardashian, Kim. And
0:36
as luck would have it, both Natalie and I
0:38
have had quite a few experiences
0:41
with Kim. So we are going to take this episode
0:43
to cover all of that.
0:44
Yeah, I can't wait. I'm actually dying
0:47
to hear from you about your personal
0:49
experience because we didn't even get a chance to get into
0:51
that. And me, you. So
0:54
Vanessa, what I really want to know is how
0:56
did you first meet Kim Kardashian?
0:59
Okay, so I met Kim Kardashian
1:01
at the Mercer Hotel and it's a place where all
1:03
the celebrities hang out. And I
1:06
met her there for a drink. I mean, it was
1:08
so strange. I remember
1:10
absolutely nothing about this encounter,
1:12
which I think is a very usual experience
1:15
of talking to Kim Kardashian because it's
1:17
so pleasant speaking to her, but like
1:20
nothing of that much import
1:22
actually gets said. She had just
1:25
had a baby and she was sort
1:27
of uncomfortable in her own skin, which
1:29
is something that came up a lot
1:31
in our conversations. I'd also just had a baby.
1:34
I know she wasn't feeling very good about the way that
1:36
she looked, but she was certainly wearing something extremely
1:39
forward-fitting and she was certainly
1:40
Kim Kardashian. And yet
1:42
nobody came up to talk,
1:45
which is fascinating. Yeah, that's very
1:48
surprising because I would expect that for
1:50
like a pre-smartphone era, this was like what, 2014,
1:52
15, something like that?
1:53
Something like that,
1:55
yeah. I mean, I'm sure pictures were taken,
1:58
but could you sell...
1:59
a picture at that point to TMZ
2:02
of Kim Kardashian talking on the
2:05
couch to some random woman?
2:07
No. You could probably sell one
2:09
of her talking to Tom Brady
2:11
or talking to somebody where they could be like,
2:14
is Kim? Because at this point she
2:16
was with Kanye, but the
2:19
story was Kanye, right? And
2:21
Kim was sort of like the sub story. So
2:23
you met her for a drink and was this just to get
2:26
to know each other? Was this
2:28
like very much on the record for
2:29
a story? This was like to get
2:32
to know each other. She had never had a cover
2:34
of Rolling Stone. And if
2:36
I remember correctly, Kanye didn't
2:38
want her to do the cover. And
2:41
so it
2:42
turned into this thing where
2:46
Kanye and Kanye's publicist
2:48
were saying, I don't know about this.
2:51
God, are they going to make fun of you? What exactly
2:53
is going to happen? And
2:56
she really wanted to do it because
2:59
her father is known as the
3:01
attorney for for OJ,
3:03
but really he was like a rock
3:06
and roll guy. He had had a very
3:08
early magazine that it
3:11
was almost like a type of billboard magazine.
3:14
And so they had grown up going to lots of concerts.
3:17
And she used to listen to like Mary J.
3:19
Blige and Earth Wind and Fire. And she was
3:21
just like into music. And he was
3:23
too. So much of Kim's
3:26
motivation is trying to make her father
3:28
who passed away too early happy and
3:30
make him proud of her in absentia.
3:34
So she really wanted to do it. So I think
3:36
there had to be this drink where it was
3:38
like, okay, talk to Vanessa directly.
3:41
And that's how I sold her
3:43
on it. I said, look, this is going to be an iconic
3:45
story. I promise you,
3:47
I will make sure that
3:49
this story is memorable and that
3:51
it tells your fucking
3:54
crazy ass ficata like Kardashians
3:58
rise to prom in the world. in the story,
4:01
like in all of its full flower. And
4:04
so she was like, okay, great. And then
4:06
we were sort of off to the races. So then
4:08
you start actually reporting it and I assume
4:10
you spent like a day with her. So tell me
4:12
about that.
4:13
Okay, so I flew to LA. I had not watched
4:16
any of Keeping Up with the Kardashians.
4:18
So then I'm, you know, on the plane watching
4:20
all of these reality
4:23
shows, just like what is happening?
4:25
It would have taken me like 30 weeks to
4:28
watch all the TV that had already come
4:31
out about them. So I'm just kind of haphazardly
4:34
like clicking on different episodes.
4:36
So I landed in LA, so I went to
4:38
an office. It was Whale Rock where
4:41
she was making God knows what,
4:43
some
4:43
sort of digital media. So
4:45
Whale Rock, I believe they're now defunct, but they
4:48
were a technology company that was
4:50
making apps for a slew
4:53
of celebrities. I mean, mostly the Kardashians,
4:55
I think. So Kim had this
4:57
like her own app where you could subscribe.
4:59
I think it was something like $2.99 a month and
5:03
you could kind of subscribe. And it was basically just
5:05
like a personal blog where Kim was posting like,
5:08
how to look cute with braids, like
5:10
five clothing ideas for date night
5:12
or whatever, as well as kind of like exclusive
5:15
pictures. It was essentially
5:17
kind of like a gated and paid subscription
5:20
model for like a personal blog. Yeah,
5:22
so I roll up to this place and you never know as
5:25
a journalist, is this like a real meeting
5:27
or are you guys just here for my benefit? But
5:30
there's like 20 people there and
5:32
she comes in and it's about like
5:35
other emojis that they could put out
5:37
that are not just like Kim crying face that
5:40
are related to her life.
5:42
And she's like, oh, this is cute. It's like a
5:44
pregnant belly or like
5:47
a fur jacket or little
5:49
things that relate to her. She's like, I don't want
5:51
a speedo that has like nothing to do with me.
5:54
And then they had emojis of like other
5:56
family members. And she was like, no, definitely
5:59
no other family members. they're all gonna want a piece
6:01
of this. You know, she talked a lot about her family,
6:03
obviously. Like, that's her primary
6:05
thing, and the way they sort of split up the pie
6:08
and the way they all watch the show
6:10
together and then decide, like, okay,
6:12
I'm all right with the way this went down on
6:15
the show. It's not like an episode comes out
6:17
and they're all, like, surprised about what they
6:19
said
6:20
or what the editors picked,
6:23
which is
6:23
potentially why the show is, like, a little boring,
6:26
you know, because I'm sure they're like, I don't want that part in
6:28
all the time. So we went there
6:31
and then we got into some gigantic SUV
6:34
and we went to this restaurant, which
6:36
I always think of as the restaurant I love the most
6:38
in Santa Monica, to Hillstone Restaurant.
6:41
Can I get the grilled artichoke? Shh.
6:44
Like a side of candy. Shh.
6:46
Can I get the veggie burger? She
6:49
was like, this is my one day to cheat.
6:52
I'm gonna eat something. I'm gonna eat like half
6:54
a veggie burger, you know, like in a few fries.
6:57
But we had a, you know, a nice conversation.
6:59
I mean, she ate so neatly and precisely
7:02
and with such good manners and, like,
7:04
you know, I just remember her sort of absentmindedly
7:07
folding and unfolding her napkin
7:10
on her lap as she
7:12
was talking. I definitely
7:14
think that there's so much more to me than that.
7:17
And I really do believe
7:20
that I am so much
7:22
smarter than I'm portrayed.
7:24
You know, we had a lovely time.
7:26
Like, that's the thing about Kim
7:28
and that's part of, I believe, how
7:31
the family has maintained power
7:33
for so long is that nobody
7:35
meets Kim Kardashian and doesn't
7:37
enjoy spending time with her. Like, she
7:40
has it, whatever
7:42
that thing is. And of course
7:44
she benefits because her public persona is
7:46
so outrageous and luch and
7:48
low culture that, you know, when you
7:51
read
7:51
somebody who's not, like, flashing
7:53
her vagina at people, you're just, like,
7:56
shocked, you know, she doesn't have to say anything.
7:59
And you're like, this is just so much more
7:59
better than I thought she would be. Right.
8:02
Right. She's like incredibly
8:04
polite. And I definitely took that away
8:07
from my experience with her as well. Do
8:09
you remember what she was wearing?
8:11
Well, I don't remember anything from the Mercer Hotel,
8:13
but I do. I have a description
8:15
of her in
8:17
the story. She comes into the meeting
8:19
precisely on time in an outfit made
8:22
up of colors found exclusively
8:24
in nature, dark green, an
8:26
ankle length dress, sand
8:28
colored lace up sandals and
8:31
a tree bark brown Celine
8:33
purse.
8:34
The effect is like a photo realistic
8:37
painting, meaning that the Kardashian
8:39
on the TV screen feels more real
8:41
than the Kardashian in the room,
8:44
which I think is very true. I think she like everything
8:47
she does to her body is for the camera.
8:49
Right. She's a jungle Aphrodite
8:52
escaped from a forest of big booty
8:54
nymphs with a mane as thick
8:57
as a horse and as black as volcanic
8:59
rock.
9:01
Her eyelashes flutter like teeny
9:03
tiny go-go dancers fans. Her
9:06
nails are small, elegant talons
9:08
painted a color that manages to be
9:10
both onyx and the bloodiest red.
9:14
But it's Kardashian's body that is the
9:16
thing, of course. And today,
9:18
as always, her clothing is so tight,
9:21
it feels transgressive, clinging
9:23
in particular to that strange, glorious
9:26
butt, a formerly taboo
9:28
body part that is now not only an inescapable
9:31
part of the American erotic,
9:33
but also our best and most welcome
9:36
distraction from climate change, income
9:38
inequality and ISIS. Just,
9:42
you know, we like to use a lot of hyperbole at
9:45
Rolling Stone like this. Everybody's
9:48
like playing Hunter Thompson at
9:50
all times. So there's
9:53
a little hyperbole for you. But look, she looked good,
9:55
you know, she looked good and the butt
9:57
is shocking.
9:59
kind of were like, is this
10:01
real? Is it not
10:03
real? Right, and we talked
10:06
about that in the show. I think it
10:08
could be real. Like, I do think
10:10
people have big butts and she might just be one
10:12
of them, you know?
10:14
I'm team not real. Okay. Anyway,
10:18
whatever. So we had this nice conversation and
10:20
then, you know, she called me after that. She
10:22
sent me when the piece came out. She sent me three
10:24
dozen white roses. I was
10:26
like, yes, Kim Kardashian. You
10:29
and I are our friends,
10:31
but, you know, I've never spoken
10:33
to her again. I
10:35
have thought a couple of times, I mean, when I wrote a book,
10:37
I thought to myself, God, should I just like ask Kim
10:40
Kardashian if she could just tweet
10:42
about this? I could sell so many books,
10:45
but then I realized like that's what everybody does.
10:47
Right. You know? So I am looking
10:50
at the picture that accompanied
10:52
your Rolling Stone cover story. It is Kim
10:55
on the cover of Rolling Stone, clearly
10:58
nautical theme. It's her bust
11:00
up. She's kind
11:01
of turned towards the camera. She's
11:03
wearing a little sailor hat. She kind of has
11:05
minimal makeup, kind of a natural
11:08
glow, lips slightly open.
11:10
She's got these big silver earrings
11:13
and then this very prominent
11:15
red, like, balcony bra,
11:18
I would say, kind of that's coming up
11:20
over her top. So the bra is very
11:22
much exposed and then she's got this blue
11:24
and white kind of, again, nautical
11:27
sailor-esque top, pulled
11:30
down off the shoulders.
11:31
But it is very much, I
11:33
don't know another way to put this, tits
11:35
on display. That's,
11:38
yes. I mean, basically, she's a sailor. She's
11:40
a sailor with a huge rack. That's like the concept
11:42
they went with. So you tell me what you think of this cover
11:44
because I could never tell if this was potentially
11:47
the worst cover I'd ever seen or if it was
11:49
really good. It's shot by Terry Richardson.
11:51
Right. You know, Terry
11:54
Richardson is a controversial,
11:57
to say the
11:59
least,
13:53
Season
14:00
two, listen and follow on
14:03
Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon
14:05
music, Stitcher, or wherever you
14:07
get your podcasts.
14:12
This is Infamous from Campside
14:14
Media.
14:15
I mean, so when did you interview them? I've actually
14:18
interviewed Kim a couple of times. So
14:21
the first time was for this July 2016
14:24
Forbes cover story that I did with her. Just
14:27
a little bit of background, Kim had this mobile
14:30
game that was a different thing to the app
14:32
that you wrote about. She had this
14:34
mobile game called Kim Kardashian Hollywood,
14:37
which I don't know if anybody remembers playing it.
14:39
I had some friends who played it avidly, but
14:41
essentially the entire premise of the game
14:44
was that you were
14:46
trying to make it as a celebrity and trying
14:49
to get more famous. And it's very interesting
14:51
because actually this game already existed
14:54
and the company that made it Glue Mobile
14:56
was seeing that there was some success with
14:59
this game, with this idea of people
15:01
trying to get famous. And they decided
15:04
we should layer a celebrity over it
15:06
to supercharge this game. And
15:09
so Kim Kardashian,
15:10
famous for being famous. That's what she's known
15:13
for, is for ascending the ranks of fame
15:15
from Z-list to A-list. They brought
15:17
her in and it was this kind of incredible
15:20
deal per my reporting. She
15:22
was getting 40% of the game's revenue.
15:26
Not of profit, like of the game's
15:29
revenue. Yeah, I'm sure they did give her
15:31
that. I mean, she made it, right? She
15:33
made it happen. Exactly. Kim
15:35
really went to work with this game. She would
15:38
send them pictures of her on
15:40
vacation. She would let them know where she was going
15:42
and what she was doing so then they could write that into the
15:44
game, for example. So she was going to Mexico.
15:47
You could also be going to Mexico
15:49
in the game. And it kind of like was
15:51
a way to live vicariously as Kim Kardashian.
15:54
So that's the backstory. So I met her
15:56
at this, it was actually at
15:58
the photo shoot for the four.
15:59
and she's there sitting in hair and makeup. She's
16:02
wearing like this little white robe. She had
16:04
her feet up on kind of a counter, and she turned
16:06
to look at me and she's like, oh my God, so nice to
16:08
meet you. She immediately got
16:10
up and gave me a hug, and
16:13
I remember being surprised by just how tiny
16:15
she was. Like, I think she is small. She
16:18
really is. And I remember looking at her hands and
16:20
just being like, oh, your hands are so small. And
16:24
so immediately she's super personable,
16:28
and she's like, how are you?
16:29
You know, so nice to meet you. You
16:32
know, I hear you're from Dubai. I
16:34
love Dubai. Clearly
16:36
her publicist had done the research
16:39
on me and given Kim the
16:41
lowdown on who I was and where I was
16:43
from. She's like, you know, I hear you're Lebanese.
16:46
One of my best friends is Lebanese. Like, blah,
16:48
blah, blah. Really connecting
16:51
with me. But did you get roses afterwards?
16:54
No, I didn't. I was like, I'm very strict. No
16:57
gift policy. Oh
16:59
my God,
16:59
you guys are so uncorruptable,
17:02
so moral. Well.
17:06
So we're on the set of this photo shoot, and this
17:08
was the era where Kanye
17:10
and Kanye's
17:12
stylists were dressing her. So everything
17:15
was very clearly preplanned
17:17
in her wardrobe, and my understanding
17:19
was that it was kind of pre-approved by Kanye.
17:22
Right. We had these photos for the inside,
17:25
and then we also had to do the photograph
17:27
that was going to be on the cover of Forbes. And
17:29
the cover of Forbes has a very set formula.
17:32
It's, you know, looking straight on,
17:34
arms crossed, looking very business-like.
17:37
And what business? Yeah. And
17:40
what she was initially wanting to wear, I believe
17:42
it was this Balenciaga straight off to
17:44
the runway, kind of silk slip
17:47
dress, almost like a 90. There
17:49
was like lace involved. Essentially
17:51
very sexy with cleavage with shoulders
17:54
showing. And
17:56
how I remember it was that, you
17:58
know, our photographer, and
18:01
the folks on set were essentially like,
18:04
this is a little too sexy for Forbes. Like,
18:07
this is a lot more skin. Usually
18:09
it's like an older
18:12
guy in a suit, you know? And
18:14
so there was some debate, can we put a blazer
18:16
over it? And then there was this
18:19
whole back and forth, like, no, with a blazer
18:21
over it, like isn't approved by Kanye.
18:24
That's not the look. I remember phone
18:26
calls back and forth and whatever, whatever. So
18:29
after that photo shoot, I got in the SUV
18:31
with her and she'd gotten changed at this
18:33
point. This was the
18:34
Yeezy era. So she's wearing this like life
18:36
of Pablo orange oversized T-shirt.
18:40
And somehow magically
18:42
we're in the parking structure, in the basement
18:45
parking structure of where we're going for our meeting. And
18:47
all of a sudden there's paparazzi there.
18:50
So we get out and she's
18:52
being photographed as we're walking in. There's some fantastic
18:55
shots of like me lingering in the background, just being
18:57
like, probably
19:00
holding my notebook being like, I'm not paparazzi,
19:02
ready? And she kind of said something to me
19:04
like, well, you know, today it's gun
19:06
violence awareness day. So I'm
19:08
wearing orange. So I need to be photographed
19:11
in orange, which is like the anti-gun
19:13
violence color. And I'm
19:15
not saying that she called the paparazzi. You
19:18
know, I don't know. I didn't see any
19:20
of that happen, but miraculously, she
19:22
was suddenly photographed wearing the color
19:24
she needed to be photographed wearing. Miraculous,
19:27
so miraculous. So the
19:29
next time we, you know, I think it
19:32
was a, maybe about a
19:34
year later, there was a Forbes summit
19:36
and Kim got booked to come and speak
19:38
on stage and be interviewed by Steve
19:41
Forbes, which really went
19:43
down as an event for the ages. And I remember hugging
19:45
her and
19:46
thinking, oh, she kind of smells
19:49
like fake tan, which
19:51
is such a particular scent. If
19:53
you know it, you know it. You know, I'm not
19:55
knocking her. She still looked amazing, but she
19:58
just literally got straight off a 13.
19:59
our flight. And then the next
20:02
month she was launching her KKW
20:04
Beauty. This was her makeup
20:06
line that was also a portion of it was
20:09
bought by Cody. So I went to
20:11
this launch that she did at the
20:13
YouTube offices in Marina Del Rey.
20:15
And a lot of time
20:17
spent in Marina Del Rey with these these
20:20
folks. Well, that's where all the you know, the shooting
20:22
the hardcore shooting for advertisers
20:24
and brands happens. So makes sense. Exactly.
20:27
So I walk into this thing and it's it's a it's
20:29
a makeup beauty event. And this was like the
20:32
peak days of YouTube beauty
20:34
influencers. Right. So it's me and a bunch
20:36
of beauty influencers like James Charles
20:39
was sitting next to me and he was wearing those black
20:41
Balenciaga sock boots that were all
20:43
the rage at the time.
20:45
I was bequeathed apparently.
20:48
Oh my god. By a friend
20:50
of mine after the Balenciaga scandal who
20:52
was she was like, I'm a public person. I can't see
20:55
wearing this. I was like, okay, I'll
20:59
take Oh my god. Well,
21:02
yeah, there was there was also Patrick Starr, who's another
21:04
fabulous makeup influencer.
21:06
Everyone was just there this full beat like
21:08
so glamorous. And at the end,
21:11
Kim was kind of standing in front of a step and repeat
21:13
taking pictures with people. And I just went up
21:15
to say
21:15
hi. And, you know, I wasn't gonna get a picture
21:17
with her. That seemed unprofessional.
21:20
And you know, of course, she she pretended
21:22
to remember me or she actually remembered me. And
21:26
yeah, that was my time with Kim.
21:28
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Beginning around 2015, something
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only to find there is no movie. It's
22:18
all a lie.
22:19
From campsite media, it's
22:21
Chameleon, the unbelievable true story
22:23
of
22:23
one of the wildest scams in history, hosted
22:26
by me, Josh Dean. To listen to the
22:28
show, just search for Chameleon, Hollywood Con
22:30
Queen, on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get
22:32
your podcasts.
24:00
you you
25:00
you you
26:00
you you
27:00
you you
28:00
you you
29:00
you you
30:04
It looks like it's part of an ad that's
30:06
going to run. It must be replacing some
30:08
lines in another ad, but it's weird
30:10
because I don't know how to match the tone or anything.
30:13
All right, let me try one more
30:15
tone.
30:17
I think it's supposed to sound like mysterious,
30:19
suspenseful.
30:22
Beginning around 2015, something
30:24
strange began to happen in Hollywood.
30:27
A con artist was calling film industry workers
30:29
and offering them huge jobs on big budget
30:32
movies.
30:33
Search
30:35
for Chameleon Hollywood Con Queen on Apple
30:37
Podcasts or wherever you're listening now.
30:44
This is Infamous from CamSight Media.
30:47
But you never saw her actually shoot her show.
30:49
No. Because I saw her shoot her show
30:51
and that was extremely weird.
30:55
So one of the other things I did with Cam is I
30:57
went with her, you know, we spent like this whole day together.
30:59
So let me play you a little bit of this tape. OK,
31:01
please. We have a family
31:03
meeting every before this season of every show. as
31:07
close as possible. don't tell
31:10
us what we're doing until the night before.
31:12
You
31:21
can sort of hear her being
31:24
like who she really is. Right. She's
31:26
a mom under stress. She's got a lot of stuff to do. And this is
31:28
the way her life works. And she's just like
31:30
sort of explaining to me like I'm
31:33
going to go to this place, this place, this place and this place.
31:35
And this is how we shoot. And
31:37
essentially like she and the rest of her family just
31:39
roll around L.A. doing like there are different things
31:41
they need to do all day, like getting their pedigures or
31:43
whatever it is, taking their meetings. And
31:46
then they sort of like a group
31:48
of friends, but not really, but sort
31:51
of are like, hey, you're
31:53
over here filming our multi-million
31:56
dollar reality show. Maybe I should stop by.
31:59
If you're over there. like in this case
32:01
it was like looking for
32:03
furniture for Kylie's new house. And
32:06
everybody had gone to this place in Santa Monica,
32:08
one of those huge warehouses with tons
32:10
and tons and tons of furniture. I got so lost in
32:12
there. And basically they were sort
32:14
of like moving through the warehouse
32:17
in little packs of like two or three, like it would be
32:19
like Chris and Kylie or
32:21
Chloe and Kylie
32:24
or you know, whatever it was, they
32:26
were all there. And you know, the cameramen
32:28
are just sort of following
32:29
them down like aisles of
32:32
couches while they talk to each other. And
32:34
it was so amazing to me because you
32:37
think of them being like, we are performing.
32:40
But of course they don't have to perform
32:42
for the cameras. They just have to stand there
32:45
and have what looks like a real conversation. So
32:47
they were speaking so softly and
32:50
so subtly that I could barely
32:52
hear what they were saying, you know, because there's like this enormous
32:54
guy with a camera in front of me
32:57
most of the time. I was sort of like trailing around with my
32:59
notebook trying to like keep up, you know? Yeah,
33:01
it was weird. I mean, it's so
33:04
Truman Show, it's just something that Kim says,
33:06
like my life
33:06
is the Truman Show to a degree, like she's
33:09
right. That's what it is. I am
33:11
so interested in that idea that at like the beginning
33:13
of every season, they have a family meeting
33:15
where they go through all their schedules. But
33:17
you have to imagine that it's also kind of like a pitch
33:20
meeting or like a storyline. This
33:22
season, I'm thinking I
33:24
want to break up with Kanye. Yeah,
33:26
fascinating. I mean, and that's
33:29
something we talk about
33:30
in the episodes is essentially like
33:32
this line between what's real and what's
33:34
fake. And it's always so interesting
33:37
to me what they do address and don't address
33:39
on the show. So in this new iteration
33:42
of Keeping Up with the Kardashians, like in this
33:44
season, they don't at all address Astro World,
33:46
which was kind of the absolute huge catastrophe
33:49
that Travis Scott, like the father
33:51
of Kylie Jenner's kids was very much
33:53
involved in. But we finally are
33:56
getting some information about
33:58
Kanye a little bit. And
34:00
of course, kind of some inherent drama
34:03
between Kim and Kourtney. But
34:06
what's always so fascinating to me is that
34:08
critics aside, whether the new
34:11
iteration of their show is boring or not aside, they've
34:14
still managed to keep it going. Like there's been this sustained
34:17
interest over so many years.
34:20
And yeah, I mean, I guess I just really want to hear
34:22
from you. Like, why do you think they've been able
34:24
to kind of stick around for so long? That's
34:27
really the big question to me.
34:29
Oh my God. I mean, I don't
34:31
know, but if I could make something like this happen, we could
34:33
have a billion dollars. I
34:35
mean, I think people underestimate
34:38
the amount of pleasure
34:40
people get by experiencing
34:43
vicariously a family that
34:45
is actually functional in some ways. Like,
34:48
wow, these people talk to each other and they work together
34:50
and they see each other all
34:52
the time and they're really invested in each other's
34:54
lives and they get on each other's nerves. I mean, okay,
34:57
forget Caitlyn. She got cast out of the fold
34:59
and forget Rob. Rob is also not around. But
35:01
like, I think that people, I
35:04
think people like that. Like, that's the aspect that
35:06
I like, like, you know, having
35:08
a lot of my family being buried under
35:11
the ground right now. Like, I enjoy
35:13
watching, you know, people like
35:15
who, the sisters who love each other. Yeah. I
35:18
guess I never really thought of them as a functional
35:20
family, but I guess in a lot of... Depends
35:22
how dysfunctional your own family is. Right, right, right.
35:24
Yeah. Right,
35:27
right, right, right. But it is true.
35:29
Like, they do actually talk to each other and
35:31
are, as you said, very much involved in
35:33
each other's lives. Even if there's
35:36
also a lot of commerce and a lot of, like, extenuating
35:39
circumstances that make that so.
35:42
Yeah. I mean, they're like
35:44
a little pack of really sophisticated
35:46
communications professionals or something. Like,
35:49
you can just see them all talking to each other. You
35:51
say this and then I'll say that. And let's place this.
35:53
And, like, there must be whiteboards in each
35:55
of these houses of, like, the story arcs
35:57
and where we're going to
35:59
leak out this.
35:59
piece of information and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
36:02
I mean, I think they, I don't
36:04
know if they have, you know, work life balance,
36:06
cause we never get to see like, does
36:08
anybody actually cook in this family or,
36:11
do they clean their own rooms or
36:14
like you just know, there's this phalanx
36:17
of service workers that trails them wherever
36:19
they go, like me trailing them
36:21
in the furniture store while they're walking around trying
36:23
to pick couches. But yeah,
36:26
there's something lovable. I mean, on the other
36:28
hand, when I was reporting with Kim, I remember
36:30
we went to the Barnes and Noble cause she had just come out with
36:32
that selfie book. And it was
36:35
book of photographs of selfies
36:37
of herself. I mean, I don't know how much more narcissistic
36:40
you can get than that. It's almost like solipsism
36:43
where it's just like, there's nothing that exists outside
36:46
of the self. The self is the world, you
36:48
know? And isn't that what iPhones have
36:50
done to us all? Yes, exactly.
36:53
I mean, the truth is they started it all. I
36:56
mean, they
36:56
did start it all. Back
36:58
then that selfie book, okay, the title was Selfish.
37:01
And everybody was sort of outraged by it. And
37:04
now it's like, yes, everybody's so selfish.
37:06
Nobody could think about anything except
37:08
for themselves. Like my daughter, my tween
37:11
daughter, every time we get in the car, she
37:13
wants to look at herself in a mirror. Like
37:15
if she doesn't have her phone,
37:18
right? She wants to hear her songs
37:21
on kids' bop radio and then look at herself
37:23
in a mirror singing her song. Wow.
37:26
And I do remember when that book came out, like
37:28
it was so ridiculed, but I,
37:31
you know, now I'm like, that's kind of amazingly
37:34
camp. And like, I want to see
37:36
Kim Kardashian in a John Waters movie, you
37:38
know? I know. There's something really
37:41
fantastic about that and
37:44
just ahead of its time in a very interesting
37:47
way where I've always wondered if we're just witnessing
37:49
some big performance art piece and
37:52
the jokes really on us. Right. And
37:54
then Kim says she would be like, you know, if
37:56
you said that to her, cause I did say things like that
37:58
to her. And she was like, well, you know,
37:59
I just don't really think about that.
38:02
I pretty much just
38:04
do my life, but Kanye thinks about
38:06
things that way. Because
38:09
yeah, her creamy thighs kind of bestride
38:11
a nation, right? She's got all
38:15
this interesting stuff going on with race
38:17
and sex and women
38:19
and power and what does it mean for women
38:21
to have both leisure
38:24
and a lot of money and also be
38:26
in control? What about
38:28
the
38:29
Kardashian curse where every
38:31
man who interacts with them is
38:33
not only is there a divorce
38:36
or a breakup, but the man sort of is left
38:38
shattered on the ground and the women just
38:40
march on? But you know, I mean the things
38:43
like when I saw her at Barnes and Noble for doing
38:45
the selfie book, so she and I sat together
38:47
while she signed book after book
38:49
after book and Barnes and Noble had said
38:51
no photographs because it's just
38:54
going to take too long. We have a huge line
38:56
of people just, you know, we're trying to sell books here,
38:58
not like take
38:59
selfies with Kim. So you
39:01
had to buy a book and she signed it, but she
39:04
was like, you know what? I'm not going to deny
39:06
everybody who's come here to take a selfie
39:09
with me. Like that's the title of the book.
39:11
I'm not going to look at these 14 year old girls
39:13
who are like, please can I take a selfie and
39:16
be like, no, I'm just signing your book.
39:18
That's so like 20th century. Like
39:21
what are they supposed to do with this autograph? Like
39:23
nobody will even understand what that is. She signed her book,
39:26
but you don't have a picture of her. I don't believe that you actually
39:28
met her. But
39:30
we're sitting there and these
39:33
people like start coming on
39:35
the line and I'm like, these people look
39:37
like pretty like punk rock and
39:39
they come up to the front and they're
39:41
not fans and they're actually from
39:44
PETA and they're just like, you're disgusting.
39:47
It takes 50 animals to make a fur coat
39:50
and you put your child in that. Oh
39:52
my God. What did she say? She
39:54
just like sort of had like a rictus
39:57
grin and like trembled a little bit
39:59
and then.
39:59
and moved on with her life. And
40:02
I always thought about that because I was just
40:04
like, God, you can
40:06
live in this world of Kardashian
40:09
bubble where everybody's
40:11
just throwing money at you and saying like, hey,
40:13
could you tweet about my book? But
40:16
every once in a while something punctures
40:19
that, even if you could say like, well,
40:21
I don't know about these PETA tactics going
40:24
up to random celebrities like that
40:26
and throwing paint on them, come
40:28
on, that's one individual living
40:31
in a greater society that privilege
40:33
is wearing fur. There was
40:35
something
40:36
about the line of like, you
40:39
dress your kid in that, that
40:41
really got me where I was like, God, it's
40:44
sort of true. Who puts fur
40:46
on their child? Right, but
40:49
in some ways that's the American dream.
40:52
It is, but it's like, is it? To them.
40:55
I sort of understand, I mean, personally, I don't
40:57
wear fur, but I am fine with
40:59
other people. That's a personal choice if they
41:01
wanna wear it. But you know
41:03
what you're doing.
41:05
To do that for an outfit for
41:07
a child where the child has no
41:09
idea is just gonna like spit up on
41:12
it and could be wearing velvet, could
41:14
be wearing polyester, like kid
41:17
doesn't care. But I also think there's, I
41:19
mean, and this is what is so interesting
41:21
with the kind of her relationship
41:24
with Kanye and their children is
41:26
that's such a core part of hip
41:28
hop is stunning and showing
41:31
the ascension from where you've
41:33
come from. And the fact that you have enough money to
41:35
put your kid in a fur coat that
41:37
they can throw up on, especially when it
41:39
is a black child, just given the
41:42
history of the oppression of black people in
41:44
this country, like it's an incredible
41:47
symbol of ascension and
41:49
an amazing visual, but
41:51
that's what makes it so complicated.
41:54
Is Kim thinking about all of that? The
41:56
ascension she's thinking about, I mean,
41:59
definitely from.
41:59
conversations with her, what I really
42:02
realized is Rob Kardashian did not
42:05
leave a lot to those kids. He
42:07
didn't have a lot. He had a lot of failed businesses.
42:10
And Caitlyn Jenner was like, look, I
42:12
mean, she was an athlete
42:14
and she was famous, but she wasn't
42:17
walking down streets paved with gold
42:19
either. And so, you know, the fact
42:21
is they grew up in Beverly Hills not
42:23
as wealthy as like the Hiltons.
42:26
You know, they were sort of the odd family out
42:28
in some ways. You
42:29
know, and you could argue her mother as well,
42:32
like,
42:33
absolutely directed her life to
42:36
making as much money as possible to her. Money
42:38
means she's safe. Yeah. Means
42:41
like, I get that. She's protected
42:43
and, you know, everything will
42:45
be fine and, you know, whatever.
42:48
It's the things that money emotionally
42:50
means to lots of people are just amplified
42:52
in her. And, you know, I asked
42:55
her like, well, why do you think people are so fascinated
42:57
with you?
42:58
And she said, well, it's aspirational. Like,
43:01
look where I came from and now I live in this big house.
43:04
And I just thought to myself like,
43:07
wow, you have bought into the American dream
43:10
so thoroughly that you can't
43:12
even see that other people
43:14
might want a spiritual life or
43:17
they might want to become like an amazing
43:20
artist or a great writer.
43:21
I think it's both, you
43:24
know, their constant pursuit of money is both like
43:27
what's kept them in the public eye and what ultimately
43:29
sort of damns them. I think
43:31
that obsession with money just, I think that's
43:33
why we're so obsessed with them, because it perfectly encapsulates
43:36
like
43:38
the greatest practice.
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