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Visit AJProducts.ie to see how we

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you. Hello

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there and you're very welcome to the Inside Politics Podcast,

0:17

Wrap of the Week from The Irish Times. I'm Hugh

0:19

Linehan. Jennifer Bres here in studio. Hi, Jen. We

0:22

have a slightly different format this week from

0:24

our usual Friday wraps because our Western correspondent,

0:27

Keith Duggan, joins us from Atlanta where he

0:29

attended the first US presidential debate last night.

0:31

Hi, Keith. Hi folks, sorry. We're

0:34

good. How are you? A tiring night for you. An

0:37

interesting experience. You're first on the ground

0:39

American presidential debate. What was it like?

0:41

Yeah, it was fascinating. It's

0:43

obviously a very long process. You

0:45

have to turn up several hours beforehand, etc.

0:47

And the security around the venue is fairly

0:50

tight. It

0:52

took place at a remove really

0:54

from downtown Atlanta. It was in

0:56

Georgia Tech University. And

1:00

even though you're at the debate, you're not really at

1:02

the debate because media

1:04

go true to what is essentially

1:06

a massive basketball auditorium. It's where Georgia

1:08

Tech played. But the actual debate takes

1:11

place nearby in a kind of hermetically

1:13

sealed environment with just the two

1:15

presidents, the two moderators and

1:17

I presume Secret Service. So

1:20

you don't actually see them perform or

1:22

as the case was last night, not

1:24

perform. But

1:27

what does happen afterwards

1:29

is that various Republican

1:31

and Democratic grandees,

1:33

officials and strategists make themselves

1:35

available on that floor for

1:38

interviewing to give their immediate

1:40

feedback as to what happened. And

1:43

I think as everyone realizes now, what happened was

1:46

a catastrophe for President Biden

1:48

and I suppose for the

1:50

Democratic Party in general. Yeah,

1:53

so I mean, I didn't watch it live. I woke

1:55

up about six o'clock Irish time. I reached for my

1:57

phone and I saw an absolute

1:59

meltdown. happening across the New York Times,

2:01

liberal media in general, democratic people just absolutely

2:03

tearing their hair out about this. So I

2:05

probably came to it then I watched the

2:08

entire thing on YouTube. And we're going to

2:10

play a clip now just to give you

2:12

a taste of what went on in case

2:14

you didn't see it. Making sure that we're

2:16

able to make every single solitary person eligible

2:20

for what I've been able to do with the

2:23

COVID, excuse me, with dealing

2:26

with everything we have to do

2:28

with, look, if

2:33

we finally beat Medicare. Thank

2:35

you, President Biden. President Trump? Was

2:38

right. He did beat Medicare. He beat it to

2:40

death and he's destroying Medicare. For

2:43

40 percent fewer people coming across the

2:45

border illegally, it's better when he left

2:47

office and I'm going to continue to

2:49

move until we get the total ban on

2:52

the total initiative relative to what

2:54

we're going to do with more

2:56

border patrol and more asylum

2:59

officers. President Trump? I really don't

3:01

know what he said at the end of that sentence. I

3:03

don't think he knows what he said either. Look,

3:05

I'd be happy to have a driving contest with him. I

3:08

got my handicap, which when I was

3:10

vice president down to a six. And

3:15

by the way, I told you before,

3:17

I'm happy to play golf if you carry your

3:19

own bag. Think you can do it? That's

3:22

the biggest lie that he's a six handicap of all.

3:25

I was an eight handicap. Yeah.

3:28

Eight? But I have, you know

3:30

how many you have? I've seen you swing.

3:32

I know you swing. President Trump, we're going

3:34

to go. Let's not act like children. And

3:36

it was as bad as I expected, actually. I thought it

3:39

was a defining moment in this campaign. What did you think?

3:42

Yeah, I mean, it was terrible

3:44

when both men, both candidates appeared

3:46

in the stage from opposite

3:48

ends of the room. I suppose

3:51

the thing about this debate was it was more of

3:53

a referendum, as was said, on Joe Biden's performance

3:56

abilities than anything else. And the immediate

3:58

optics just weren't good because he was

4:00

sort of stiff in his gait and

4:02

he was halting and then when he

4:04

began to speak, his voice

4:06

is very weak and actually very, very

4:08

difficult to understand what he said. Watching

4:12

it there, I mean, I did feel that

4:15

he recovered a little

4:17

bit, maybe 20 minutes into debate and there

4:19

was a few times when he sparked

4:22

a little, when he

4:24

gets angry, he becomes

4:26

more energized. But the

4:29

thing dragged on, the moderators

4:31

went to the various issues, the

4:33

economy, January 6th, the border,

4:36

et cetera, et cetera. Donald

4:39

Trump did what Donald Trump does, which is

4:41

he said what suits him, he ignored the

4:43

answers he didn't really want to get into

4:48

and he was relatively disciplined, he stayed

4:50

on message. And as the

4:52

evening wore on, the focus became more

4:55

and more on Joe Biden.

4:58

The television format was really

5:00

unforgiving on him because it was a

5:02

split screen with a close focus on

5:04

both their faces and if you

5:08

go back to four years ago and look at

5:10

the clips now, you'll see Biden, he was quite

5:12

animated and he was smiling

5:14

a lot and he was taking notes.

5:16

This format didn't allow for that. He

5:18

just had to stand mute

5:21

and he kind of had this, I

5:24

guess a slack-jawed expression is the only

5:26

word for it, is the only phrase

5:28

for it. And I really don't understand

5:30

why the people who were coaching him

5:32

on this hadn't practiced this side of

5:34

them. Like the odd

5:36

time he did smile, which was at

5:39

the very end, we're chatting beforehand about

5:41

that ridiculous golf conversation, he was smiling

5:43

then and he just looked,

5:46

I guess he looked more like himself, but

5:48

it was terrible. He

5:51

was not incoherent,

5:53

but he trailed away, his thoughts trailed

5:55

away at times and I suppose

5:58

most unforgivably, He failed

6:01

to fill his two-minute slots on

6:03

several occasions, so he wasn't

6:05

even able to speak

6:07

on the issues for his allotted time. And

6:11

it quickly became clear afterwards that it had

6:13

been the worst

6:16

nightmares of democratic

6:18

strategists sort of borne out on

6:20

live TV. So I

6:22

suppose we're not going to get the full story

6:24

about what really happened over the last while

6:26

until the books come out after the election.

6:28

But it does raise a lot

6:31

of questions about the strategy of the Biden

6:33

campaign, doesn't it? I mean,

6:35

they were the ones really who were pushing more for this historically

6:38

unprecedented early debate taking place even before

6:40

the party conventions have happened. They obviously

6:42

felt that it was worth the risk

6:44

and it was always going to be

6:46

a risk. They had a lot

6:49

of input into the format. It seemed to

6:51

me that the format was a disaster for

6:53

Biden for some of the reasons that you've

6:55

given there. And they gave a

6:57

lot of time and a lot of space to

7:00

prep, we're told, a week of rest and prep

7:02

for Joe Biden. And this is what

7:04

we got after a week and rest of prep. It's

7:07

pretty bleak, isn't it? It's incredibly bleak.

7:09

I mean, they obviously

7:11

gambled on the early

7:14

debate because they were buoyed by his

7:16

performance in the State of

7:18

Deanian address in March when he was quite

7:20

vigorous. And he was

7:22

fairly impressive. He reassured a lot of people.

7:25

And he's been on the campaign trail

7:27

and there have been no notable disasters.

7:29

So I suppose they had reason to

7:31

feel that he'd be fine in this

7:33

format because it was rehearsed. But the

7:35

problem was because it was a sort

7:37

of a back and forth, Donald Trump

7:39

was able to, I mean, it's

7:42

almost gone unnoticed that Donald Trump said

7:44

at least 18 things which were

7:47

fact checked and, you know,

7:49

proven to be either gross

7:51

exaggerations or outright lies. But

7:54

Biden wasn't really able to counter those for

7:56

two reasons. One, it could be argued that

7:58

he simply wasn't quick enough. but also the

8:00

format didn't really permit him to do so.

8:03

He couldn't interject. He had to wait

8:05

and it was strictly timed. And

8:08

it just gave

8:10

Donald Trump carte blanche to say what he

8:12

chose. So

8:16

that was a mistake on their part not to

8:18

foresee that. And maybe

8:21

you're right, maybe when the books come out we

8:23

know the full truth then, but I wonder will

8:25

someone at some stage say, well, we realized if

8:27

we held the debate this early, and it was

8:29

the disaster that it turned out to have been,

8:32

it would give them a chance or an

8:35

opportunity to maybe think about replacing

8:37

Joe Biden or persuade them to step down,

8:39

which is the conversation this morning. And I

8:41

think that conversation would probably have been unimaginable

8:43

at seven o'clock last night. And we'll come

8:45

to that conversation in a minute, but Jen,

8:47

you watched it as well. It was kind

8:50

of difficult to watch, wasn't it? It was. And

8:52

I'm not trying to be dramatic in saying this. I tend

8:54

to, I make a rule of not watching horror

8:57

movies in my life because they

8:59

freak me out. And this honestly felt like

9:02

a horror scene unfolding. And I think

9:04

that that's an excellent point about the

9:06

way that it was structured

9:08

in terms of the split screen, because

9:10

a lot of the time he looked

9:13

confused about what was being said, but

9:15

sometimes he looked genuinely confused about almost

9:17

where he was, almost like he was

9:20

surprised and alarmed to find himself in

9:22

this TV studio. Like when he came out at first, he

9:25

was already kind of mushing things under his breath.

9:28

He was kind of pointing inanely to the

9:30

podium. He was kind of looking quite confused from

9:32

the very get-go. They talked about tax and

9:34

the economy early on, and he was already muddling

9:36

his words. He was talking about, you

9:39

know, a thousand trillionaires became a thousand billionaires. $500

9:41

million of debt became $500 billion of debt. He

9:45

would lose his train of thought. He

9:47

would kind of swerve from one point

9:50

to the other. Then he kind of, there was

9:52

one point where he was trying to make you start randomly talking

9:54

about COVID and then kind of

9:56

Medicare. And it just was seized

9:58

upon by Donald. Trump. And I think

10:00

the thing, the one abiding thing that I was really

10:03

left with after watching the full debate

10:05

was, you know, you have

10:08

Donald Trump here who lives in an alternative

10:10

reality most of the time, and he comes

10:12

out with whatever he wants. And standing next

10:15

to Biden, you'd almost believe the things that

10:17

he was like, he actually next to Biden

10:19

looks convincing. It shows you that when you're

10:21

standing next to somebody who's not even really

10:23

in the room, you can kind of get

10:25

away with anything. And I think it's

10:28

absolutely shocking to look at a debate and think

10:30

that Trump came out on top nine times out

10:32

of 10. And there were some moments when I

10:35

think Biden tried to come out swinging a little bit.

10:37

You know, he talked about the

10:39

man opposite me is the only convicted felon.

10:42

And even then Trump kind of did this thing where he was like,

10:44

yeah, I am like it didn't

10:47

catch him really in

10:49

any way. And was all this kind of comments about,

10:51

you know, there was it was

10:53

previously alleged that Trump had referred, I think it was to,

10:58

to soldiers as losers and suckers. And

11:00

this was this is an allegation made in a book.

11:02

And Trump kind of said, Oh, I never really said that.

11:04

And he could get away with that a lot of the time by saying, Oh,

11:06

that's not true. So essentially,

11:09

what we saw was a frail elderly man

11:11

in studio. And there's something about these debates,

11:13

but people often say these debates don't matter

11:15

very much. But they do matter when they

11:17

feed into a pre existing narrative. Don't they

11:19

Keith? And one of the things that the

11:21

polls show the three quarters of Americans think

11:23

that Joe Biden is too old for another

11:25

term in the White House. They also show

11:27

that a majority of people who voted for

11:30

Joe Biden in 2020 think he's too old.

11:32

So this is fed so directly into that

11:34

narrative, that all of a sudden, the Democratic

11:36

Party seems to have blown up as you

11:38

say over the last over the last 12

11:40

hours or so. And something which was really just

11:42

mumbled or, or really on the margins of the

11:44

party now seems to have come to the center,

11:47

which is basically not to put too fine a

11:49

point on it, getting rid of them. Yeah,

11:52

exactly. And I was surprised by

11:54

how quickly and how loudly that

11:56

conversation started last night, almost minutes

11:58

in fact, just. minutes after

12:00

the debate ended. To

12:03

go back to the idea of this

12:05

as a TV show, it obviously immediately

12:07

switched back to the analysis in the

12:09

studio and John King, who a lot

12:11

of Irish viewers would know from previous

12:13

elections, he was on air

12:15

and he said something that sort of just

12:17

struck me. He said immediately that there was,

12:19

I'm quoting him here, a deep, a wide,

12:21

and a very aggressive panic in the Democratic

12:23

Party. That involves strategists,

12:25

officials, and fundraisers and the

12:27

conversations that they're having

12:30

involved, either going to the White

12:32

House to speak to President Biden

12:34

or that maybe some senior officials,

12:37

senior Democrat figures go public about

12:39

mutinid of his step and down.

12:42

And again, I was sort of surprised

12:45

by the speed

12:47

with which this fear traveled

12:49

from the text

12:52

messages of Democratic

12:54

groundies to the broadcast studios

12:56

and therefore out into the

12:59

public sphere. Because in

13:02

contrast, the Republican performance

13:04

was completely un-messaged. Immediately

13:06

after the debate ended, that

13:08

auditorium, that basketball hall was

13:11

filled with, well, particularly

13:13

Trump's vice presidential

13:15

candidates, Marco Rubio,

13:18

Tim Scott, et cetera. A

13:21

lot of Republican groundies, Matt

13:24

Gaetz, so I think I quoted this morning in

13:26

the paper, all just glorying in this

13:28

because it was sort of bloodthirsty. I

13:31

don't think they could quite believe how

13:34

wild it had gone for them and how terribly

13:37

Joe Biden had performed. And they

13:39

were kind of speaking of this

13:41

as a mea culpa that the

13:43

Democrats had that they were basically

13:45

putting up a

13:47

lame duck candidate in front of the

13:50

country and there was no real alternative

13:52

but to elect Donald

13:55

Trump. So it's really

13:57

an alarming moment for, I suppose,

18:00

to take and because they

18:02

all say he does a reasonable or

18:04

a good job on

18:06

a day-to-day level in the White House.

18:08

I mean, oratory was never his thing

18:10

and now it clearly is a huge,

18:13

huge glaring weakness. So I don't

18:15

know what they'll do, but it's a massive decision.

18:18

And the clock is ticking out as well because it's a

18:20

matter of weeks before, if they are going to do anything,

18:22

they'll have to do it pretty soon. Listen, we will leave

18:24

it there because I know you've lots to do as well,

18:26

Keith, and lots more copy to file for the weekend

18:29

edition of the Irish Times as well. So listen, thanks for

18:31

joining us this morning for you this afternoon for us. This

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podcast is brought to you by

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AJ Products, creating a more friction-free

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office made in Sweden for the

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rest of the world. Visit AJProducts.ie

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to see how we can make

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your workplace work for you. And

18:48

you're very welcome back. Jen is still here, Jen, returning

18:50

to the less exciting

18:52

UCA of domestic politics. They can be exciting

18:54

enough, can't they? I mean, we have after

18:56

we've had a new minister for

18:58

finance, which we discussed a bit on

19:00

Wednesday's podcast, and then a rising out of

19:02

that little mini-shuffle at

19:05

the junior ministerial level. Yeah, there

19:07

was, I won't say

19:09

intense speculation, but I

19:11

will say there was speculation throughout the week

19:13

of who would take up that role that's

19:15

vacated now by Jack Chambers becoming the minister

19:18

for finance. Yeah, I did see a headline, I

19:20

think, from whenever it was on Wednesday's newspaper, you

19:23

know, Fianna Fáil TD is vying for junior

19:26

ministerial jobs. I found it less than exciting.

19:28

Well, I wrote that, and I'm just so

19:30

insulted. Sorry, I'm sorry about that. But

19:33

I also, when I was writing it thought, oh, God,

19:35

so it's fair enough for you. But, yeah,

19:37

and also, funny if your listeners

19:39

want to have an epic cringe about this

19:41

whole situation, our news editor showed me just

19:43

before I walked in the door of the

19:45

podcast a social media clip that Fianna Fáil

19:47

put up of Jack Chambers. I don't know

19:49

whether you know this viral clip about looking

19:52

for a guy in finance 6.5 with blue

19:54

eyes, but they've done a version. And I

19:57

think I retreated into a different planet with the level of

19:59

cringe.