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He recently put out a new favorite episode

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he's just beguaded. I'm proud

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that Founder's is part of the Colossus Network and you

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can find the link to this treasure trove in the

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show notes. Hello

1:26

and welcome everyone. I'm Patrick O'Shaughnessy and this

1:28

is Invest Like the Best. This

1:30

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all our podcasts including edited transcripts, show

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1:51

O'Shaughnessy is the CEO of Positive Sum.

1:54

All opinions expressed by Patrick and podcast

1:56

guests are solely their own opinions and

1:58

do not reflect the opinion of Positive

2:00

Time. This podcast is for

2:03

informational purposes only and should not be

2:05

relied upon as a basis for investment

2:07

decisions. Clients of Positive

2:09

Time may maintain positions in the securities

2:11

discussed in this podcast. To

2:13

learn more, visit psumvc. My

2:17

guest today is Danny Meyer, the

2:19

founder and CEO of Union Square

2:21

Hospitality Group, which compromises some of

2:23

the most acclaimed restaurants in New

2:25

York City like Gramercy Tavern and

2:27

Union Square Cafe. Danny is

2:29

also the founder and chairman of Shake Shack,

2:31

which began in New York City but is

2:33

now a publicly traded company with hundreds of

2:35

locations worldwide. Our conversation focuses

2:37

on how great hospitality leads to great

2:39

business regardless of the sector that it's

2:41

in. We discuss why hospitality is the

2:44

starting point for Danny's business philosophy, why

2:46

first impressions matter, Danny's concept of

2:48

ABCD, which stands

2:50

for Always Be Connecting Dots, how to

2:53

scale hospitality, and how to build a

2:55

business with essentialism and soul. Just

2:57

the other day when my son went ice skating for the first

2:59

time and fell a lot, he said to me, well, you learn

3:01

from your mistakes so you try to make as many of them

3:03

as you can. You'll hear Danny say

3:06

something powerfully similar late in our conversation. It's

3:08

a lovely thought then that I found out

3:10

that my son, my first born, was a

3:12

boy in one of Danny's restaurants in a

3:14

reveal orchestrated by his incredible team. I

3:16

hope you enjoyed this wonderful conversation. Danny,

3:21

I thought a neat place to begin this conversation, which

3:23

will probably go a lot of different directions, is to

3:25

go all the way back to some early experience that

3:27

you had as a tour guide in Italy and

3:29

ask what that experience at a very young

3:32

age taught you about hospitality. Then I want

3:34

to explore the idea of hospitality in as

3:36

many ways as we can. I'll

3:38

start by saying my dad was

3:40

at that point in the group

3:43

tour business. He had established

3:46

footholds in about eight

3:48

different European cities. Interestingly,

3:50

as a summer job, by the

3:52

time My older sister

3:55

and then I and then my

3:57

younger brother each turned 20, we

3:59

got to pick a town. in

4:01

which is tour business was based.

4:03

To. Be tour guides and work for his

4:06

on the ground local teams. Who. Were

4:08

always citizens of whatever that city was.

4:10

I wanted to be in Italy, so

4:12

when I turned twenty, I picked Rome.

4:15

My dad picked out a interesting nice

4:17

to sell these group tourists to. They.

4:19

Were airline employees and

4:21

their families. And the reason

4:24

he picked them out His but he

4:26

was able to aggregate these. Extraordinary

4:28

discounts that were afforded

4:30

to airline employees and

4:32

their families. Everything from

4:34

the travel itself. Which.

4:37

Usually amounted to about. Forty.

4:39

Dollars round trip on the

4:41

international carrier. To. Additional.

4:44

Deep. Discounts for hotels. He was

4:46

able to negotiate all kinds

4:48

of. Deals. With restaurants

4:51

and sightseeing. Tour. Buses:

4:53

a typical airline pilot

4:55

or flight attendant or

4:57

baggage handler. Or. Gate

4:59

agent. Could. Get a four

5:01

day trip to Rome or some

5:03

London. Including going to plays and

5:06

you name it. But they could get a

5:08

four day trip. For some.

5:10

Amazingly. Low number like four

5:12

hundred ninety nine dollars including their round

5:14

trip airfare. I just want to set

5:17

the stage psalm. Twenty years old. I

5:19

go. I want to go wrong. And.

5:22

It was great. I got to live in a

5:24

hotel where he put up all of his people

5:26

which happened to be. About a

5:28

block away from the Vatican. And.

5:30

Has happened to be the summer. The.

5:32

Two different pope's died. Pope.

5:35

Paul. And. I went to

5:37

that funerals and then some sort weeks

5:39

later Pope John Paul the first time

5:41

he may remember them sort of mysterious

5:43

deaths. I went to his funeral. I

5:45

said this is kind of interesting in

5:47

one summer I get to go to

5:49

to Paypal funerals. Most. People never

5:51

get to go to one. I was

5:54

the guy that they said every

5:56

single morning. Or three or

5:58

four mornings a week to go pick up. A.

6:00

Tour. At. The airport a

6:02

tour group. And you know how

6:05

it is when he traveled overseas. Your crowded

6:07

the next day and jet lagged and. Lot.

6:09

Of people don't sleep too well. Believe

6:12

me these people were not flying first

6:14

class Nord you get those rates and

6:16

everybody was grumpy and I was the

6:18

guy on the bus. After collecting everybody's

6:20

baggage and getting in on the boss

6:23

who would get on the loudspeakers, the

6:25

microphone and start talking about the tour

6:27

that was ahead. You. Could just

6:29

tell. I can tell from standing up

6:31

looking at the people. Half

6:33

of them were nodding their heads. To.

6:36

They were happy. Half of them were shaking

6:38

their heads as they were unhappy and. Maybe.

6:40

The third half I never was good at

6:43

math were sleeping through the whole thing but

6:45

I suggest self knowing that I was going

6:47

to be with these people for forty five

6:49

days. there was one two or that would

6:51

be seven days. I. Could tell us

6:54

who was gonna be the hardest not to crack.

6:56

Who's. Gonna be the easiest. And

6:58

I just have. Made. A game I'd

7:01

at. Kind of loved it. Of

7:03

trying to figure out how I was

7:05

going to. Turn around. the

7:07

unhappy people make him happy. And.

7:10

Build a group of people that would really have

7:13

a fun time together. I wasn't thinking

7:15

about the word hospitality. I wasn't thinking

7:17

about any of this. Except.

7:19

Feeling it intuitively, And

7:21

I was actually learning like crazy. I got to

7:24

learn how to give a Rome by Night to

7:26

her. At. As begin to learn

7:28

the language I got to get to

7:30

know many. Local. Tried to

7:32

real where I would not only

7:34

bring these groups for their included

7:36

dinners. But. I would get

7:39

paid a thousand lire. Commission.

7:41

For every head I brought in their. This.

7:43

Became. Hospitality. Experience:

7:46

Call an area experience. Group

7:49

psychology experience. And.

7:51

Ultimately it began my love

7:53

affair with Italy which continues

7:55

to the say. I

7:57

love the line in your book that it's human

7:59

Nature for. People to take precisely as

8:01

much interest in you as they believe

8:04

you're taking in them. I think that's

8:06

a really nice summation of or an

8:08

introduction into your conception of hospitality. I

8:10

would love to hear you describe why

8:13

and how hospitality is of the starting

8:15

point for your business. Lossy generally. Maybe

8:18

saw that has to do it's having. A

8:21

Stylus My business in New York City that

8:23

has always have really good food and a

8:25

lot of it. And. You.

8:28

Can't win here on food along.

8:30

And you can't even when here on wine

8:33

alone. Everybody's got good wines on. There was

8:35

certainly enough people to of. And

8:37

so. I feel like a

8:39

long time ago. I realize that.

8:42

Food. Was. The

8:44

starting gate. He didn't have.

8:46

really good food and good wine list

8:48

and fair pricing. A nice environment. He.

8:51

Just weren't even gonna get anybody to wanna

8:53

come back. but I was more interested in.

8:56

Turning. First. Union Square Cafe

8:58

which was my only restaurant for the first ten

9:00

years of my career. And. Then

9:02

grammar see Tavern. I was more interested in

9:04

turning those into your favorite restaurant. And.

9:07

In order to make it your favorite restaurant. We.

9:09

Not only had to be really good at what we

9:11

did, but we had to be even better if how

9:13

we made you feel. We. Had to make

9:16

you feel. Like. We were on your

9:18

side which is hospitality but then take it

9:20

a step further. We had to. Really?

9:22

Make you feel like you belong in

9:24

it. Was this unlocking of a. Human.

9:28

emotion. Which is that

9:30

more than anything else, I think

9:33

human beings long to belong. He.

9:35

First it to belong to a family. Then.

9:37

You get to belong to. Whatever.

9:39

School you grew up going to and. Whatever.

9:42

Team. They rooted for him. Maybe.

9:44

You have an organized religion

9:46

and you belong to that

9:48

congregation. Maybe. You were

9:51

in a fraternity and you belong to that

9:53

fraternity. But. Whatever it is, it's

9:55

such a deep drive to belong

9:57

to something. That's. really the

9:59

reason that our industry exists. Now that's

10:01

different perhaps if you're talking about a chain

10:04

restaurant that you find on an exit of

10:06

the highway which is one of

10:08

a thousand units. That's not

10:10

necessarily a place that exists for

10:13

belonging as much as it exists to

10:15

refuel people. But I think

10:17

restaurants, especially full service restaurants,

10:19

really exist for the purpose of creating a

10:22

place to belong to. I want to go

10:24

all the way back to the earliest lessons

10:26

you learned at Union Square Cafe. I

10:29

think you were in your late 20s when you

10:31

set that restaurant up. It sounds like from

10:33

the Italy store you had some natural instinct for

10:35

hospitality or natural skill. But I think one of

10:37

the things you've written about and talked about

10:39

is just always getting better at this. What were

10:42

some of the key early lessons that you learned

10:44

at creating that environment of hospitality? Because just

10:46

seems very hard to do. You get someone for

10:48

a first initial meal, hopefully they come back.

10:50

It's somewhat transactional when it starts and you're

10:52

trying to transition it into something much more,

10:54

I think you say, dialogue not a monologue,

10:56

which is a neat way of thinking about

10:58

this. What were the mistakes or the early

11:00

lessons you learned at Union Square Cafe that

11:02

started to lay this foundation for all these

11:04

other great restaurants? I learned that it

11:06

was all about the front door. The front door

11:08

is the first signal that

11:11

you get when you go to a full

11:13

service restaurant as to whether this is going

11:15

to be a transaction, i.e. give me your

11:17

name and I'll give you a table, give

11:19

me your order and I'll give you food,

11:22

pay your bill and we're done. It

11:25

could either be that or it could be recognition,

11:28

eye contact, a smile, a sense that

11:30

I'm happy to see you, a

11:32

sense that I do see you, a sense

11:34

that you matter. That can all

11:36

happen right at the front door or

11:38

not. And that's when you know with

11:41

any place you go to, you can

11:43

go to a pick your favorite coffee

11:45

bar in your neighborhood. We all

11:47

have stories of the chain that

11:50

over the last 10 years maybe you've gone there 500 times

11:53

and you always order your coffee the exact

11:55

same way and they never remember, Which

11:58

is a great way of thinking. Freshly

12:00

letter. You know that you don't really

12:03

matter and they don't go see a

12:05

transaction. By. The way that it's

12:07

quick and the coffee is hot. And

12:09

you keep coming back. then. The transaction

12:12

was fine. I can do it quickly

12:14

and it doesn't take me any longer.

12:16

While. I'm taking your money to smile

12:18

and say you. And. Remember all

12:21

to do is say would you like the

12:23

usual. And. I you feel like you

12:25

belong there and now have become essential in your

12:27

life. And that's what we

12:29

strive for. And that's frankly the

12:31

reason that I love this business

12:34

so much. I am really focus

12:36

on. This. Challenge that

12:38

I don't think I've seen of

12:40

lot in our industry And that

12:43

is can you successfully scale. Hospitality.

12:46

Can you successfully scale a feeling?

12:48

Of welcome. Very, very different

12:51

than. The. Massive success that

12:53

Ray Crock have in our industry.

12:56

And so many others afterwards. Which

12:58

is can you successfully scale system.

13:00

To. Consistently produce a flavor.

13:03

Whether. Or not you ever go to. Eat.

13:05

Fast food. Gotta get some credit to the

13:08

fact that. The. Fries are going

13:10

to taste exactly the same. Coast.

13:12

To coast, country to country they

13:14

nailed to the systems for consistent

13:16

flavor. I will also tell you

13:18

that. I promise you that the

13:20

way you are made to feel. Coast.

13:23

To coast country to country is gonna be

13:25

vastly different because it just was never part

13:27

of their calculus. Should. We be

13:29

able to scaled. A human feeling

13:32

of belonging. And. That's what

13:34

I'm kind of transfixed on his

13:36

Can you actually scale hospitality? I

13:39

want to explore that idea and some depth

13:41

of before we do lay a couple examples

13:43

that I so love about the method if

13:45

he well for pretty good hospitality two things

13:47

come to mind your acronym A B C

13:49

D and this great story around learning from

13:51

a trout fisherman who overturned a certain rock

13:54

when you were fishy with him. Can you

13:56

describe how those two things might relate to

13:58

each other and really backed a hospice. A,

14:00

B, C, D simply means always

14:03

be collecting dots so you

14:05

can always be connecting dots. And

14:07

in this case, dots, some

14:10

people would rather call it data. But

14:13

when I talk about a dot, I'm

14:16

talking about a morsel of

14:18

information that matters to you.

14:21

And if it matters to you, then it better matter

14:23

to me. Because if I want to

14:26

matter to you, I better care about something

14:28

important to you. So if

14:30

you're coming to dine in our restaurant, A,

14:32

B, C, D, always be collecting dots, I

14:35

better take a minute and check

14:38

out who Patrick O'Shaughnessy has

14:40

interviewed in the past. I

14:42

might even want to take it a step further and

14:44

ask myself if I know any of those people. When

14:47

you and I first met and we established that

14:50

we each know Bill Gurley, that

14:52

was connecting a dot. You

14:54

did it for me. I would have done it on my

14:56

own because I'm a big fan of Bill's. That

14:59

is A, B, C, D, so you can A, B, C,

15:01

D. This gets back to this

15:03

notion that people really want to belong to

15:06

something. I think people also want to connect

15:08

with people. And we look for things that

15:10

we have in common, which is

15:12

the root of the word community, which we're all

15:15

craving. I want to belong to

15:17

a community. I better start by finding things we

15:19

have in common. It could be a

15:21

sport team that we root for. It

15:23

could be that we live in the same

15:25

state. And now maybe we have

15:27

that in common. It could be we

15:30

went to the same college or we

15:32

were in the same fraternity at two different

15:34

colleges. But we're looking for

15:36

that stuff. That's the collection of dots.

15:39

And then when you connect those dots, you're

15:42

showing an interest in someone else. And what happens

15:44

is you get that interest back. The

15:46

people component of all this, and this will

15:48

circle us back to the ability to scale

15:51

hospitality just obviously seems central. I love the

15:53

idea that in your companies, people were evaluated

15:55

with 51% emotional performance,

15:57

49% technical performance. It's

16:00

very deliberate, I'm sure, which way that scale

16:02

tips. Say a bit about that,

16:04

and again, I'm thinking about this trout fisherman, turning

16:06

over the rock, and the care that it takes,

16:09

and how you engender that care, to

16:11

make sure that all the people that

16:13

are interacting with customers have that same

16:15

standard. How do you start to scale

16:18

beyond just Union Square Cafe to this

16:20

much larger collection of restaurants and businesses

16:22

around the country? Let's just take

16:24

a second and tell the story about

16:26

the turning over the rocks, and that is, I'll

16:29

start by saying I love fishing. I

16:32

have never developed a love for

16:34

fly fishing, and this happens to

16:36

be a fly fishing story. But

16:38

what I got out of fly fishing

16:40

has helped me in business, and that

16:43

is that the expert fly

16:45

fisher people, even before

16:47

they show their physical dexterity

16:49

in fishing, they have to

16:51

actually show an interest in

16:54

the fish themselves before they can possibly catch

16:56

a fish. And the way they show interest

16:59

in the fish is to figure out what

17:02

is actually hatching in

17:05

the water at that moment. What kind

17:07

of insects are actually hatching? Because

17:09

the fish are smart enough to

17:12

not eat something that isn't hatching at

17:14

that moment. A really good

17:16

fly fisherman waves into the water, turns

17:18

over a rock, underneath

17:20

which is a whole

17:22

community of things hatching.

17:26

And the really good fly fisher sees

17:29

what's hatching, says, aha, I've

17:31

got a tie, a fly, that's gonna

17:33

actually look just like what's about to

17:35

hatch. And that's what I'm gonna

17:37

tie at this moment if I wanna catch those

17:40

fish. So that's where this all

17:42

came from. How does that apply to business?

17:44

Well, I think if you're in business,

17:46

you wanna catch as many fish as you possibly

17:48

can, also known as customers.

17:51

It sure does help to have a

17:53

product that the customers actually want. And

17:57

furthermore, as marketers... And

18:00

we're all marketing our product all the time.

18:03

It sure does help not only

18:05

to have the product people want, but

18:07

to deliver it in a way that

18:10

they cannot miss it. It

18:12

all has to do with taking an interest

18:14

in who is your customer and having what

18:16

they want. That's kind of what I think

18:18

about all the time. And then how do

18:20

you surround yourself with people who get that

18:22

as well? I feel

18:25

like leadership is about setting

18:27

priorities and then exemplifying the behaviors

18:29

that you want to see in other people. It

18:32

is a priority of mine. And it is an

18:34

example that I do try to set all the

18:36

time with everybody who works for us

18:39

to follow through and care as

18:42

much about the customer you want

18:45

as you hope that they'll care about you. If

18:47

somebody writes you an email, you don't

18:49

just write them back. It's inexcusable not

18:52

to figure out something about them before

18:54

you write them back. Does that take

18:56

extra time? Yes, of course it does.

18:59

However, it's going to most likely

19:01

lead to a much richer opportunity

19:04

if a good opportunity exists at all. I'd

19:07

love to hear a bit more about the

19:09

challenges of scaling hospitality that you've encountered as

19:11

you thought through this. I don't know whether

19:13

Shake Shack's appropriate to touch on here since

19:16

it is a much more scaled up, repeated

19:18

experience than a single restaurant. As

19:20

you sit back and try to solve that French

19:22

fry problem on the service side rather than the

19:24

product side, what are the major challenges

19:26

that you've encountered and ways you've gotten around them? Well,

19:29

I think Shake Shack's a great example because

19:31

it's a scaled business. There's over

19:34

300 Shake Shack's in the

19:36

world. And there are, at least last time I

19:38

checked something like 14 different countries

19:41

in which Shake Shack operates. In

19:43

Shake Shack's case, you're not only scaling

19:45

hospitality, but you're scaling a culture across

19:48

many, many, many different cultures. It's

19:51

a great example. It's an example of

19:53

what we've been talking about, which is

19:56

taking an interest in other people so that

19:58

they'll take an interest in you. You

20:01

better go into a community,

20:03

whether it's in the United States or

20:06

abroad, number one with humility, because

20:08

no one in the world wants you to

20:10

come in saying, we're the big smart

20:12

New York people, lay down for us and

20:14

eat our hamburgers. That's just not

20:16

how the world works at all. So you go

20:18

in with humility, and you learn

20:20

as much as you possibly can about the community.

20:22

The same way I talked about learning as much

20:25

as you can about a prospective

20:27

guest in one of your fine dining

20:29

restaurants. Here's an example, and

20:31

this could be for any city, it could be

20:33

for any country. We send in a team of

20:35

people and take Los Angeles.

20:38

Los Angeles was a great laboratory

20:40

for this theory. Plus, California is

20:42

sort of hamburger central in

20:45

the United States. They know

20:47

everything about drive-ins, it's

20:49

a driving culture. They know

20:51

everything about burgers and shakes. And

20:54

the last thing California needs

20:57

is a New Yorker telling them how to eat

20:59

burgers. We knew that going in. We

21:01

did in California, we started in Los

21:03

Angeles. In fact, the first Shake Shack was

21:05

in West Hollywood with a huge

21:08

amount of humility. And that starts with

21:10

two months beforehand, using

21:13

the advantage of coming from the

21:15

fine dining industry to send

21:17

our team to the best

21:19

restaurants in Los Angeles as

21:22

ambassadors and getting to understand

21:24

the restaurant community, understand

21:26

who they buy their products from, understand

21:29

the products they make that they're really proud

21:31

of, understand the distributors and

21:33

the suppliers and the farmers that they

21:35

work with, understand how they

21:37

recruit people, understand who the players are

21:40

in the media world, on and on

21:42

and on. Lo and behold, Shake

21:45

Shack opens with four items on

21:47

its menu. In addition to the

21:49

80% of the

21:51

items that are consistent at every Shake

21:53

Shack, 20%

21:56

of the items are customized and

21:58

by doing that in... every city

22:00

we go to, even a close city

22:02

like in New Haven, when Shake

22:04

Shack first opened in New Haven next

22:07

door to Yale, the walls were

22:09

made from recycled

22:12

bleacher seats from the original Yale Bowl.

22:15

The special hot dog was named

22:18

after the Yale mascot and a special

22:20

recipe went with it. It's

22:22

that 80-20, 80% consistent,

22:25

20% all about you showing

22:27

an interest in you, which makes you feel

22:29

like this is my Shake Shack, I

22:31

now belong here. And guess what, you

22:34

can actually do that with a

22:36

scale business. We do the same thing also

22:38

where each Shake Shack actually

22:41

picks one menu item and

22:43

gives a percentage of the

22:45

proceeds of that menu item to a

22:47

local not-for-profit, different in every

22:49

Shake Shack. And that local

22:52

not-for-profit usually gets to take part

22:54

in the opening night event.

22:57

Members of the staff get to know

22:59

the not-for-profit and volunteer there in many

23:01

cases. It's just a way

23:03

of showing interest if you expect

23:05

to get that interest back. And it's a

23:07

great way to just avoid being

23:10

a cookie cutter transactional business, which

23:13

doesn't really interest me. I absolutely

23:15

love the 80-20 rule. I won't forget

23:17

that one. What are the characteristics shared by

23:19

the people that make an organization like this

23:22

hum? Thinking back to that 51% emotional,

23:25

what have you learned about the

23:27

people that fuel all this? Because I guess

23:30

every business is just about people, but certainly

23:32

yours is even more so about the people

23:34

delivering the service and the hospitality. What have

23:36

you learned there about building a bigger organization?

23:39

Well, we've learned that there is an answer

23:41

to a question that I was stymied by

23:43

for years and years almost

23:45

everywhere I would go giving speeches

23:48

to different organizations, most of which were

23:50

not even in the food business. They

23:52

just wanted to know about hospitality. They

23:55

would always ask consistently two different

23:57

questions. One was, how do you guys always

23:59

manage to hire so many awesome people.

24:01

I love the food, but it's

24:03

your people that really makes me come back. I

24:06

would talk about looking for

24:08

what you just accurately described

24:10

as 51 percenters, people

24:12

who are emotionally

24:15

wired to be happier

24:17

themselves when they deliver happiness to you.

24:20

Now that's not a good thing and it's not a bad

24:22

thing if you're not that person, but

24:24

it's an essential thing if you're

24:26

going to succeed in a

24:29

hospitality driven business. Okay,

24:31

so we're looking for people who have

24:33

six emotional skills at

24:36

a very, very high level, kind

24:38

optimism, curiosity, intellectual

24:41

curiosity, amazing work

24:43

ethic, highly empathetic, highly

24:46

self-aware, and a high degree of

24:48

integrity. Those are the six emotional skills.

24:51

That's 51 percent of

24:53

what we're looking for in a hopefully

24:55

100 percent higher. The other

24:58

49 percent are all performance issues like

25:00

are you a really good cook? Are

25:02

you a really good sommelier? Are you a

25:05

really good dishwasher? I don't really care

25:07

what the role is. We're looking for

25:09

100 percent and 51 percent of

25:12

that has to be what we

25:14

call a high HQ, high hospitality quotient.

25:17

When you add up those six emotional skills,

25:19

it generally adds up to someone who while

25:21

they're doing the thing they do really, really

25:23

well are doing it in

25:26

the service of making you

25:28

feel better than you would have felt if we

25:30

had never come into your lives. That

25:33

gets down to a bigger

25:35

sense I have that to have an

25:37

enduring business built to last, it needs

25:39

to become essential in the lives of

25:41

people. It needs to be the kind

25:43

of business that makes your life better

25:45

because it exists. Here's an example.

25:48

Within three blocks of my

25:51

apartment in Manhattan

25:53

are five different dry

25:55

cleaners, four different nail

25:58

salons. Go figure out. I go

26:00

to the nail salon myself, but I do ask

26:02

myself if any one of those went out of

26:04

business or any one of those five dry

26:07

cleaners went out of business, would I notice? Would

26:10

I care? Well, I don't want to

26:12

start a business that didn't actually make

26:14

a difference in people's lives. You

26:16

would know that that had become an

26:18

essential place in people's lives if

26:21

they really felt that something went missing.

26:24

The cool thing is there's a lot of

26:26

examples of essential things

26:29

in the world. There are essential pieces

26:31

of art. There are essential books

26:34

you've read. There are essential songs

26:36

you've heard that your life got better because

26:38

that song was written and you

26:40

actually can't even imagine your life if

26:42

that song or that group had

26:44

never been formed. I can't imagine

26:46

my life that the Beatles had never been formed or

26:49

Paul Simon had never been born or

26:51

Crosby, Sills and Nash. Now obviously I'm dating

26:53

myself, but I just feel good

26:56

when I hear their music and

26:58

it made my life better and it would make

27:00

my life really, really sad if someone told me

27:03

you can never listen to one of those songs again. That

27:06

means that it achieved essentiality and guess

27:08

what? There are millions of songs

27:10

that have been written that didn't achieve that.

27:12

There are millions of restaurants that have been

27:14

built. I think I've

27:16

built restaurants that never achieved essentiality,

27:19

but that's not what we strive for. You

27:21

only get there when you

27:23

start with people who exist

27:25

for the purpose of doing the thing they do

27:27

really well in the service of

27:29

making other people feel better. If you can do it

27:32

for a long enough time, that

27:34

business develops soul. I absolutely

27:36

love the acid test of is what we're building

27:38

here. Does it have the potential to reach that

27:40

stage of essentialism and soul? I think the answer

27:42

is often going to be no. It's a great

27:44

way to move on from something of an idea

27:47

early on. I also imagine

27:49

that sticking with the emotional

27:51

theme here, the leadership component

27:54

as the organizations get bigger becomes obviously

27:56

different and new challenges. I

27:58

love this framework that you've laid out. for

28:00

I think the three words were constant, gentle,

28:02

and pressure as ways of being a leader

28:04

and trying to align a couple of those

28:06

things with your personal style. Can you walk

28:09

us through that framework for leadership? I

28:11

feel like most leaders have

28:13

a vision for where they're trying to

28:16

take you, and good leaders not only

28:18

have a vision, but they're able

28:20

to communicate it. Then it becomes

28:22

a lot of herding

28:24

cats, and you can do

28:26

it with a command and control approach. I

28:29

just don't think that lasts very long. Do

28:31

as I say, because I've got all the

28:33

power. Do as I say, because otherwise you're

28:36

fired. I don't think you're going

28:38

to get the best work out of people

28:40

working in that kind of environment. What that

28:42

also means is that I think really strong

28:44

leaders need to be really good at not

28:46

only having a vision and communicating

28:48

the vision. They have to be

28:50

equally good at persuading people that

28:53

it's worth your while to come

28:55

along and do it. And oftentimes

28:57

the vision is going to involve

28:59

some type of change, change in your behavior,

29:02

change in the way we do things around

29:04

here, a change to your

29:07

expectations about how life was going to

29:09

go. You know, most people don't really

29:11

like change. Most people don't really like

29:13

uncertainty. The notion of constant gentle pressure

29:16

is that I believe you need

29:18

all three words as a leader. You

29:21

better be consistent with it. The

29:24

reason I use the word gentle is

29:26

that if you're too harsh while

29:28

you're trying to reel in a fish, the line

29:30

is going to break. If you're constantly

29:35

playing the fish and reeling it in in

29:37

one direction, and you're keeping the pressure

29:39

on, you don't let up on any

29:41

of those things. You don't let up on the constant

29:44

or the gentle or the pressure. I

29:46

think that more great

29:48

people are going to do

29:50

more great work for more time in

29:53

your company. Just the way I am. I know that

29:56

there are some times, especially in times of

29:59

crisis, when you do have

30:01

to shift into, I know what I want

30:03

to do it. You got to shift into

30:05

that mode, command and control mode. But

30:08

I don't think most people will want

30:10

to be part of a team for

30:13

a sustained period of time in that environment.

30:15

And I think those are the kind of work

30:17

environments that tend to see a

30:20

ton of turnover, which never

30:22

equates to a great morale

30:25

and often does not correlate

30:27

to the best talent because

30:29

the best talent I know in the world would

30:32

love to buy into a vision

30:35

and then sort of be left alone to do

30:37

their best work and not have

30:40

a micromanager at every

30:42

step of the way, say, do it this way, do

30:44

it this way, do it this way. So constant channel

30:46

pressure, I tend to use much

30:48

more when it has to do with

30:50

our culture. This is why we do what we do.

30:53

This is what I expect the results

30:55

to be. I really let people figure

30:58

out how to use their expertise

31:00

to execute on that. If I knew all the

31:02

answers, I wouldn't need them in the first place.

31:05

Another aspect of leadership you've mentioned a bit earlier

31:07

is just this notion of embodying the things that

31:09

you're trying to preach. And I

31:11

love this line in the book, the road to

31:13

success is paved with mistakes well handled. Is there

31:16

a particular mistake that you remember that you were

31:18

personally involved with? Maybe you were

31:20

in the restaurant yourself. And to say a

31:22

little bit more about handling mistakes well and

31:24

the role that that plays in this notion

31:26

of hospitality. Well, my notion of

31:29

mistakes is that they are the greatest

31:31

renewable resource on earth. There's always another

31:34

one. You're never gonna run out of

31:36

it ever, ever, ever. As long as

31:38

the human race occupies

31:40

parts of the earth, there

31:42

will be mistakes. You can disagree with

31:44

that. I've never met anyone who doesn't

31:46

make mistakes, but if you agree with

31:49

that notion, then you say, all right, we

31:51

can either let mistakes do us

31:53

in, we can either hide

31:55

from our mistakes, we can either deny

31:57

that we made mistakes, we can either...

32:00

about our mistakes or what

32:02

if we could actually put those mistakes to

32:04

work for us? What if we could say,

32:06

hey, as long as there's this constant

32:09

waterfall or constant waves

32:12

of mistakes coming, think about the waves in

32:14

the ocean. There's always another

32:16

one. You don't know when it's going to come. You don't

32:18

know how big it's going to be. Water

32:21

might be calm enough for a while to make you

32:23

think there's no waves, but there's going to be another

32:25

one. That's what I like

32:27

to do with mistake making. And it's like,

32:29

all right, as long as it's an honest

32:31

mistake, I have zero patience

32:33

whatsoever for dishonest mistakes. But

32:36

an honest mistake, it's like, great, let's use

32:39

it to our advantage. Let's learn from it.

32:41

Let's own it. Let's name it. Let's

32:44

teach from it. Let's employ what I call

32:46

the five A's of mistake making, which are be

32:48

aware you made it. That's A

32:50

number one. You wouldn't believe how many mistakes get

32:52

made where you didn't even know you made it.

32:55

So be aware, number two, acknowledge it. Number

32:58

three, apologize for it. Number

33:00

four, act to fix it. And

33:02

number five, apply additional generosity. Those are

33:04

the five A's of mistake making. People

33:07

are blown away when you do those

33:10

things because unfortunately, in our society, there

33:12

is so much either shame

33:15

or just natural

33:17

muscle reflex to be

33:19

afraid of acknowledging that you made a

33:21

mistake or ashamed to apologize or whatever,

33:24

that it blows people away

33:26

when you do those five things. And

33:29

you can actually end up in a better

33:31

spot with someone for how well you embraced

33:34

and overcame a mistake than if you had never made

33:36

it in the first place. To your

33:38

first question, I would

33:40

not even know where to start because

33:42

there's just not a day that goes by. I mean,

33:44

there's the obvious kind of mistakes like in

33:46

the restaurant business, like spilling on somebody

33:49

or forgetting somebody's birthday candle

33:51

that they had requested. We've

33:54

made more macro mistakes

33:56

like picking a subpar

33:58

location for a restaurant. In

34:00

each case, if I've learned

34:02

one lesson, it's not only apply the

34:04

five A's of mistake making, but really

34:06

trying to do it more quickly than

34:09

ever. Don't be so afraid

34:11

of the response that you keep

34:13

this acknowledgement and apology and action

34:15

in your pocket for too long.

34:18

Fail quickly is a really good

34:20

piece of advice. One

34:22

of the things that is imbued throughout the

34:24

restaurants and the business in general is creativity.

34:27

And you've opened many different kinds of restaurants.

34:30

Obviously, I'm sure many of these themes we've

34:32

talked about pervade them all. But

34:34

there's probably some sort of creative spark

34:36

at the beginning of each. As

34:39

a repeat entrepreneur, I'm sure these are

34:41

moments that you live for, these sort

34:43

of primordial ooze stages of a new

34:45

enterprise. And there's this concept you

34:47

have of whoever wrote the rule that

34:49

I would love you to explain as a

34:52

device for this early stage of

34:54

entrepreneurial spark and creativity. That

34:56

spark you describe is something

34:59

that I haven't really analyzed a lot. I

35:01

know that great musicians are often

35:03

asked, I've heard interviews with Paul McCartney, how

35:05

did you come up with Blackbird

35:08

or Ellen or Rigby? And

35:11

I don't know how he did it, but he did.

35:13

And maybe he woke up in the middle of the

35:15

night singing a song. I

35:17

haven't actually thought about when it happens

35:19

or how as much as I probably

35:22

should, except for this. I know that

35:24

my life experience plays into it. And

35:26

I like to collect experiences. In fact,

35:28

one of the things that I cannot

35:30

stand about the pandemic is

35:33

not being able to travel because I

35:35

collect experiences. And it's not only in

35:37

restaurants, it can be window shopping. I

35:40

can see the names of companies. I can

35:42

see what trade signs look like.

35:45

I can see how a butcher cuts

35:47

things differently in one country or another.

35:50

I love going to markets to see

35:52

how people eat. I

35:54

love seeing art, I love seeing plays. And

35:56

I'm bringing this up because by just

35:59

being... are gracious when it

36:01

comes to collecting life experiences.

36:04

We're putting these experiences in our

36:06

mind, in our heart, in our

36:08

memory bank. I think

36:10

inspiration, that spark moment that you

36:12

were describing, happens when

36:14

you find the

36:16

right time to make a withdrawal

36:18

from the bank that is appropriate

36:21

to the current spending opportunity you

36:23

have. So in my business,

36:25

I know that sometimes it's the context

36:27

that really helps me to figure it

36:29

out. Shake Shack wasn't an idea that

36:32

I was just dying to

36:34

do. I didn't wake up

36:36

one morning having been focused on

36:38

three-star New York Times restaurants, like

36:41

Gramercy Tavern, 11 Madison Park,

36:44

the Modern Unit Square Cafe, and

36:46

wake up one morning saying, now what

36:49

I really have to do is frozen

36:51

custard and hot dogs and cheeseburgers and

36:53

crinkle-cut fries. It was basically looking at

36:56

the context of trying to

36:58

help revive a park and

37:01

having food that would be

37:03

in the public domain at a

37:05

price point that anybody could

37:07

afford, who could afford to go to

37:09

New York. And I just jotted

37:11

out the menu very, very quickly. And we haven't

37:14

really veered much from that menu in all

37:16

these since 2004. It's

37:18

basically this. I think I do some

37:20

of my best work from the frame

37:22

inward. The great artists that

37:25

you see in museums generally paint

37:27

on a canvas. And then someone figures out

37:29

what kind of frame to put it on,

37:32

which kind of wall to hang it on, and

37:34

how to light it. And I feel like I do

37:36

some of my best work artistically when

37:38

you give me the frame and you

37:41

say, what do you think belongs

37:43

in that frame? You actually give

37:45

me the frame and the wall and the

37:47

lighting. And you say, what do you think

37:49

belongs in there? And that's

37:51

what led to doing things like working

37:53

in city field with the Mets, where

37:55

they said, here's center field, a

37:58

place that nobody goes. create

38:00

a community out there. What are you gonna do? Or

38:02

the Museum of Modern Art says, here's

38:05

the space we're gonna give you. And

38:07

it's at the intersection of three

38:09

generations of architects of MoMA. What

38:12

are you gonna do there? I feel like increasingly,

38:15

that's the kind of challenge I

38:17

love, which is you show me

38:20

the frame, you show

38:22

me the context, I love

38:24

working inward as opposed to outward. What

38:27

is the tension between wanting to start new

38:29

things and obviously you're not a serial entrepreneur,

38:31

so you've started a lot of new things.

38:34

How do you deliberate at any point in your

38:36

life or career, whether it's better to expand or

38:39

to pause and go deeper into

38:41

what you already have? Probably in

38:43

the same way that a winemaker decides,

38:46

is this a terroir wine? Is

38:49

this a wine that needs to taste

38:51

exactly like where it was grown and

38:54

only like where it was grown? Or

38:56

is this a flavor that

38:58

we can and should replicate many,

39:01

many, many times? So if you

39:03

think about wines, the brands of

39:05

wine that have sold the

39:07

most globally, I don't even

39:10

know what they all are. Yellowtail doesn't

39:12

taste like anywhere, it just

39:14

tastes like something. And it's

39:16

obviously a combination of a good

39:19

enough flavor and a good enough price and good

39:21

enough name and packaging

39:24

that it can sell everywhere. But

39:27

then you take wines from Burgundy where

39:30

every village, even though it's five

39:32

blocks from the next village, actually tastes a

39:35

little different. And then within that village, a

39:37

vineyard, same great Pinot

39:40

Noir or Chardonnay, but a

39:42

vineyard within that village is gonna taste

39:44

different than another vineyard within that village.

39:47

I often feel that way about Union Square

39:49

Cafe, my first restaurant. I feel that way

39:51

about Gramercy Tavern, my second restaurant.

39:54

They not only taste like where they

39:56

were born, but they're named for where

39:58

they were born. Not on Gramercy. those

40:00

wines we're talking about, most of the great

40:02

French wines are named

40:04

for where they're grown. It's not

40:06

a marketing name. And I feel like we have

40:09

a lot of those kind of restaurants, Grand Marcy

40:11

Tavern, the Modern. We also

40:13

have restaurants that are

40:16

more about another place

40:18

than they are about this place. So a

40:21

restaurant like Myelino, which is

40:23

based on my love affair with Rome,

40:26

not just Italy, but Rome, Myelino

40:28

actually has scale because we have a

40:30

restaurant in Washington, DC called Myelino Mari,

40:33

which is a seafood version of Myelino here in

40:35

New York. So every now and

40:38

then we'll get one that just feels like

40:40

there's not going to be hundreds of them

40:42

because I just that doesn't really excite me

40:44

that much with a full service restaurant. We

40:46

have a new business, new ish business called

40:49

Daily Provisions. There are two of

40:51

them now, one in the Flatiron District on 19th

40:53

Street and one on the Upper West

40:55

Side that I believe

40:57

not only will grow, but

41:00

should grow. It's an interesting

41:02

hybrid because Daily Provisions,

41:04

the spark of inspiration

41:07

for Daily Provisions came

41:09

because we were moving

41:11

Union Square Cafe after 30 years to

41:14

a new location on 19th

41:16

Street, very close to Union Square, 19th

41:18

and Park. And the space that we

41:21

got happened to come with another

41:23

space next door. And we

41:25

were completely focused on not

41:28

screwing up, moving

41:30

a 30 year old beloved brand, Union

41:32

Square Cafe. Meanwhile, we had to figure

41:34

out what to do with this little

41:36

space next door, which became Daily Provisions.

41:39

We basically said two things. This

41:41

one has to be a gift to its neighborhood. It

41:43

has to be a gift to people who live near

41:45

here and a gift to

41:48

people who work near here. And it

41:50

has to have, because it's so small, really,

41:53

really good versions of the

41:55

kind of food that you crave at any time of

41:57

day. So better have

41:59

really coffee, it better have really good

42:01

bread, it better have really good breakfast

42:03

sandwiches, it better have the world's

42:06

best crawler, it better have the world's

42:08

best cookie, it better have

42:10

the world's best rotisserie chicken to

42:12

take home at night. And we

42:14

just started thinking about that neighborhood and if

42:16

you live there, and I happen to live

42:18

very close by, I don't need

42:20

a lot, I just need one of

42:23

the top three versions of 15 different

42:25

things that I could eat every day of

42:27

my life. And

42:29

in order to have a license to

42:32

get on that little menu in that little

42:34

place, it better be a

42:36

really essential version of

42:38

that. We don't need another me

42:40

too croissant, we don't need another

42:42

me too grilled cheese sandwich.

42:44

The ticket to get on that menu is

42:47

you better be an amazing

42:49

version of whatever that category is.

42:52

So it turned out that Daily Provisions

42:54

was a smash hit the minute it

42:56

opened, which is why we opened a second

42:58

one. And second

43:01

one was jam packed with

43:03

people, COVID hit. And

43:05

now Daily Provisions is finding a way to

43:08

be really, really strong in the pickup

43:10

and take out and delivery business

43:12

because it has to because people

43:14

can't gather anymore. But I'm telling

43:17

you that story because it's

43:19

a hybrid, we created a place

43:21

of its terroir. And

43:23

yet, it turns out to

43:25

be something that we found people were kind

43:28

of coming from all over just

43:30

to pick up their crawler in the morning, or

43:32

just to pick up their roast beef

43:34

sandwich in the afternoon. And

43:37

we said we should do more of these because this

43:39

is a really cool thing. I

43:41

love the comparison of locality

43:43

and extensibility as a way of thinking

43:45

about any kind of business and the

43:47

frame inward. I mean, it's such an

43:49

interesting creative exercise to sort of bookend

43:52

our conversation around and unite

43:54

many of the themes that we've walked through.

43:57

I'd love you to tell maybe a story from

43:59

your own experience. of this, I think

44:01

you call it the excellence reflex. Just like you

44:03

have a reflex if someone gets thrown at you

44:05

and you knock, there's certain people or companies that

44:08

have this excellence reflex. I think that

44:10

will put a bow on this notion of, obviously

44:12

not everyone's in the restaurant business, but in our

44:14

own ways, we're all in the hospitality business. And

44:16

I'd love you to just tell a closing story

44:18

from any experience, doesn't have to be food or

44:20

can be a meal, can be anything. Just to

44:22

nail home that point of excellence reflex and why

44:24

that can be so powerful for us all. If

44:27

you're part of an organization that wants

44:30

to compete to win, you better

44:32

surround yourself with people who wanna

44:34

win themselves. We use

44:36

the expression excellence reflex. As

44:38

you just said, doing something as well as

44:41

you can do it and learning

44:43

to do it even better tomorrow is

44:45

a journey. I'm telling you right

44:47

now, I'm not the least bit interested in

44:49

perfection. It doesn't exist. It's

44:51

a recipe to be pretty unhappy in life.

44:53

I'm very, very interested on the other hand

44:56

in the notion of excellence. And I

44:59

do believe that excellence is a journey.

45:01

And I believe excellence is honoring the

45:03

work you did yesterday, all the mistakes

45:05

and everything. You gave it your best, but

45:07

damn it, figure out how you could do

45:09

it a little bit better today. And

45:12

when you see something that can be better, you fix

45:14

it. Restaurant workers are famous

45:17

for a lot of things, but there's

45:19

this consistently weird thing I've noticed through

45:21

the years where they don't often

45:24

know how to look down. They walk right

45:26

over the little sweet

45:28

and low wrapper that somebody dropped

45:30

from their table. That's not using

45:32

your excellence reflex. That doesn't belong there. And

45:35

by the way, I'm not trying to put down restaurant people

45:37

at all, I'm putting down myself when I say this. It's

45:40

like, if it's not right, you gotta fix it,

45:42

whatever it happens to be. There's

45:44

a great expression, always leave your campsite neither

45:47

than you found it, which I really, really

45:49

believe in. That implies

45:51

some excellence, which is, here's

45:53

what I saw when I got here. I'm

45:55

gonna make it even better, but I'll be damned

45:58

if I'm gonna leave it even worse. There's

46:00

just no way I'm going to do that. We think

46:02

a lot about that. I also think a

46:04

lot about competition. I'm a sports

46:06

fan, and I

46:08

love learning about what motivates

46:11

championship performance. Because in business,

46:13

that's our sport. It's a

46:15

game. We are paid

46:17

to be problem solvers. I've

46:19

learned over time that I need to surround

46:22

myself with people who are

46:24

motivated to be champions. I've also learned

46:27

that there are three primary differences

46:29

in the kind of motivations that

46:32

champions have. Not one

46:34

is better than the other, but it's important

46:37

as you build a team to think about where

46:39

people come from. You've got the

46:42

really, really competitive champion whose

46:45

motivation primarily comes from a desire

46:47

to beat the competition. That

46:49

jazzism. The image I get in

46:51

my mind is Muhammad Ali standing

46:54

atop Sonny Lushton with his fists

46:57

in the air. You can tell he

46:59

loves that he just beat that guy. Then

47:02

you've got the great champion

47:04

who's primarily motivated by a

47:06

hatred or fear of losing. There's

47:10

just nothing worse than losing. I'll be damned if

47:12

I'm going to lose, which is why I'm

47:14

going to win. I think of John

47:16

McEnroe yelling at the

47:18

umpire, how could you call that shot

47:20

against me? Then you've got the

47:22

champion. I was just reading a

47:25

great article about a great track

47:27

and field star who just passed away, Rayford

47:29

Johnson. You can

47:31

tell that his primary motivation was

47:33

outdoing his own personal best. It's

47:36

not that he really cared who he beat. He

47:39

didn't really care that much. Losing

47:41

just wasn't even on his mind. He

47:43

just said, you know what? If I jumped X

47:46

far yesterday, I'm going to jump

47:49

X.2 tomorrow. I'm just going

47:51

to, or I'm going to run X.2

47:53

faster tomorrow. I think it's important

47:55

for any of us who are in a competitive field.

47:58

Look, I bet you check out how many people listen

48:00

to your podcast all the time. And

48:02

if I know you well enough, you might

48:04

even be aware of how other podcasts are

48:06

doing in the category. It's just a good

48:08

thing to have the self awareness of what

48:10

motivates you to want to be the best.

48:13

What's a wonderful closing thought and analogy and

48:15

an excuse for me to ask my traditional

48:17

closing question that I ask everybody. And that

48:20

is to ask what the kindest thing that

48:22

anyone's ever done for you is. Kindest

48:25

thing anyone's ever done for me was to say yes

48:27

when I asked her to marry me. I

48:29

just cannot imagine any

48:32

of my business life or family

48:34

life or who I've become

48:36

had it not been for Audrey

48:38

Heffernan saying yes and becoming Audrey

48:40

Heffernan Meyer. She is an amazing

48:43

mom of four kids who

48:45

I adore, who I learned so much from

48:48

and probably more than anything in addition to

48:50

the isn't it great how

48:53

she has supported me, which

48:55

it is. But she's I think more than

48:57

anything helped me to become real.

49:00

I think there's a

49:02

fine line between wanting people to

49:04

be happy so much that you end

49:07

up losing a piece of your own

49:09

authenticity. And that never happened to me,

49:11

thank goodness. And I give her all

49:14

the credit for that. Well, Danny,

49:16

this has been easily one of my favorite conversations

49:18

that I've had in this format. It's been an

49:20

absolute pleasure. Thank you very much for your time.

49:22

Thank you. Thank

50:00

you.