0:04

Welcome to it could happen here a podcast

0:07

about things falling apart. I am

0:09

Robert Evans, and today we're going

0:11

to talk about a specific part of Eurasia

0:14

where I don't know, things are kind of

0:16

on the edge of of of falling apart and

0:18

maybe becoming something else. As I'm sure most

0:20

people are aware, Russia

0:23

expanded its invasion of Ukraine earlier

0:25

this year. UM. It has not gone well,

0:27

and the government has recently announced

0:30

that they are doing a general mobilization

0:32

and bringing another three thousand soldiers

0:35

into their armed forces. UH. The

0:37

significant chunk, if not the bulk, of

0:40

these recruitments are coming from areas away

0:42

from the on the periphery of Russian

0:44

power, you might say, UM, particularly

0:46

different chunks of the Russian state,

0:49

UM, where there are minority populations

0:51

who have been UH dissident

0:54

to the to the Federation of Russia

0:56

in the past. UM. Probably

0:58

the most active of the is a place

1:00

called Dagistan UM. Most Americans

1:03

probably are not super well versed on this area.

1:05

It is the furthest southern point in

1:07

the Russian State. It borders Azerbaijan.

1:10

UM. It's pretty close to Turkey

1:12

and UH. This is a region that has

1:15

a massive Muslim population and has

1:17

been the side a whole lot of resistance to the Russian

1:19

state in the recent past. And today

1:21

we're going to be talking about what that looks like

1:24

now as the government is attempting

1:26

to draft men from this part

1:28

of the state

1:31

and and as sort of

1:33

resistance has risen up significantly

1:36

within Dagistan UM. I'm going to be talking

1:38

with Karina Avidisition. Karina

1:40

is a PhD studying social movements

1:43

in particularly in Russia. UM.

1:45

Karina, welcome to the show. Thanks

1:48

for having me. UM. So, first

1:50

off, I'm not an expert on on Dagistan

1:53

UM. What do you think is important for

1:55

people to know about the

1:57

relationship between this region and

2:00

the Russian state. UM.

2:03

It's the biggest republic in the

2:05

North Caucasus UM,

2:08

and it has actually

2:10

independent media still depe despite

2:12

the really intense repression UM

2:15

and the dozens of disappeared or murdered

2:17

journalists from from the republic. UM.

2:21

Kinship ties are strong Indugistan.

2:24

So the announcement of mobilization

2:26

and the kind of you know, the start of the mobilization

2:28

process UM really

2:31

affects people because extended families are closed.

2:33

So when someone has taken away affects a

2:35

lot of people. UM. So that um,

2:38

in large part kind of explains the level

2:40

of mobilization. The other thing

2:42

I want to mention is that the

2:44

North Caucasus region in general,

2:46

but especially Dugistan and Chechnia

2:50

UM, just kind of don't see

2:52

themselves as part of Russia. UM.

2:54

To be honest, Russians don't

2:57

really care about what happens there either. I mean,

2:59

you know, it's as if it's another country

3:02

and there's this huge disconnect um. So

3:05

there doesn't really exist this kind of

3:07

civic Russian identity um.

3:09

And the concept of Russia as a country

3:11

is to a large extent held together by

3:14

sheer oppression and propagania. UM.

3:17

Yeah, that's kind of kind of way I try to focus

3:19

on, like this is a part of the Russian state

3:21

rather than like these areas are Russian, because

3:23

that's certainly not the way it feels on the ground

3:26

or the people feel about themselves. Yeah,

3:29

exactly. UM. And you

3:31

can kind of see differences in the way

3:33

police respond to these protests

3:35

in Russian regions versus

3:38

places like Dagistan. Um.

3:41

In Russian regions and by Russian region,

3:43

I mean, you know, places where you know, Russian ethnic

3:45

Russians are a majority. Um,

3:47

you have people or you have police kind

3:49

of arresting or detaining interesting protesters,

3:53

whereas in Dakistan, UM,

3:56

you know, the tactics

3:59

of the arrest sing people. You know, her

4:01

being kind of carted off is really significant

4:03

because of the history of violence in the

4:06

republic. UM, So abductions,

4:08

UM, disappearances and murder is very

4:11

common. UM. And this is something

4:13

that I've heard Dakistani

4:15

protest participants kind of expressed

4:17

to fear about. Like, you know, people know

4:20

that that might happen. You might get identified

4:22

among the protesters, and you might not

4:24

get detained interested like you would you know in Moscow

4:27

for example, but you might get you know, identified

4:29

and then kind of targeted later, which

4:32

is yeah, I mean obviously very frightening.

4:35

UM. One of the things that I had read kind

4:37

of about part

4:40

some of the origins of the conflict

4:42

in the region right now is that it had

4:44

been common for some time because the

4:46

the economy in Dagistan. Dakistan

4:49

is in the Caucusus, which is a mountainous region

4:51

in southern Russia, and it's where a great deal

4:53

of the country's fuel comes from. UM.

4:56

There are kind of folks who will say that

4:58

the government of the Federation

5:00

has like avoided utilizing

5:03

that infrastructure to the most that it can to avoid

5:05

providing jobs, and it's made a lot of

5:08

young men joined the military

5:10

to become contract soldiers. In the past, that

5:12

was a good way to provide for if you had a

5:14

large family, you do a military contract,

5:16

you're not going to get sent outside of the region.

5:19

It's pretty safe. But then of course Putin

5:21

invades Ukraine and suddenly a lot of these

5:23

people who had been doing this not because

5:25

they wanted to support the Russian Federation

5:28

because it was a job, are suddenly being

5:30

sent to go fight and die in outside

5:32

of Kharkiv or wherever. Yeah, the

5:35

other thing is that's why there's so many security

5:37

personnel kind of internally in the Republic as well.

5:40

So the republic experience it's high unemployment

5:42

UM. That's mentioned poverty UM,

5:45

and it's almost by design rights so many

5:47

people just relying on the state for jobs and

5:49

security UM services

5:51

as one of the main UM sources

5:54

of employment. But that also kind of has that

5:56

double effect of UM you know, being

5:58

used as a tool for repression. So any time kind of

6:00

descent comes up, even you know, when a

6:03

large part of the grievances are about poverty

6:05

and unemployment and just kind of having a future, you

6:08

have UM a

6:11

kind of excess of people who

6:13

are ready to kind of suppress UM

6:15

any expression of kind of descent that might

6:18

lead to problems later. And

6:20

it seems like a great deal of discent right

6:23

now is coming from UM,

6:25

the Muslim pop in particularly like the Muslim

6:27

religious community within Dagastan.

6:30

The reason that you and I are talking right now is you you

6:32

shared and commented on a post um

6:35

without someone was sharing a

6:37

piece of protest art um that

6:39

was referencing a recent comment by the Deputy

6:42

Mufti of Dagastan Um

6:45

and it's a stylized drawing

6:47

of several mountains on a green background

6:49

that says the invader doesn't become a martyr.

6:52

And if I'm interpreting that correctly, what what

6:54

that's saying is, it's it's a statement of protests

6:56

from within the Islamic community of Dagastan saying

6:59

if you go to someone else's homeland to

7:01

take part in an invasion and you

7:03

die, you're not being martyred, You're

7:05

not dying in a way that is that is, you know, uh,

7:09

respected by a law essentially.

7:12

Is that am I? Am I interpreting that correctly? Yeah?

7:14

Absolutely, Yeah, that's exactly what it's saying.

7:16

I found that remarkable, UM for a

7:19

couple of reasons. UM. The first is that

7:22

descend in the region originally, so

7:24

you know, after the colops of the Soviet Union and then the

7:26

First Church in War, there was descent,

7:28

but it was mostly limited to ethno nationalist

7:30

movements who were very narrow in

7:33

their messaging. So their grievances

7:35

were you know, just about their one

7:37

ethnic group and you know, whatever repression that they

7:39

experienced. So UM, they

7:41

kind of missed out on broader support, and

7:45

political Islam became a

7:47

channel for UM

7:49

kind of representing oppositional identity.

7:52

UM. And because of that

7:56

cutting across the ethnic lines through

7:58

selfism, which is UM kind of a stricter

8:00

interpretation of Islam, which is prone

8:02

to radicalization. UM,

8:05

that had much broader support

8:07

and posed a significant threat to

8:09

Moscow. And I want to kind of make a parallel

8:12

here because mosques

8:14

and religious communities across

8:16

the world are actually really UM

8:18

interesting spaces for social

8:21

movement mobilization. UM. Some

8:23

of the earliest works on social movement mobilization

8:25

talked about black churches

8:28

in the US as being you

8:30

know, key to the civil rights movement

8:32

because you know, these spaces that are kind of away

8:34

from the state, away from surveillance.

8:37

Although in Legistan and lots of parts

8:39

of Russian Muslim spaces are

8:41

are up totally unfiltrated by

8:44

the state or they're actually you know, state most

8:46

these or the state's

8:48

eyes and ears are kind of there. But still

8:50

there's these spaces, and I think that's

8:52

a big, kind of, um significant

8:55

key factor in how this movement has been

8:57

able to mobilize and

9:00

interested in because obviously Chechnia

9:02

is another part of Russia that has a large Muslim

9:04

population. There was a horrible

9:06

war, they're not all that long ago.

9:09

That is really a prelude in a lot of

9:11

waste, the kinds of violence and the kinds of repressive

9:13

tactics that are being used right now by the Russian

9:15

state. Um, what

9:18

what sort of separates like why

9:20

didn't Dagastan kind of go the same

9:22

way as czech Nia? Like how

9:25

I'm kind of interested in in and

9:28

that because it seems as if the

9:30

muftis there are much more willing to kind

9:32

of act in resistance to the

9:34

States. Still, is it just a factor of the violence

9:37

that was unleashed on Chechnya earlier? Is there more

9:39

to it? Um?

9:41

I think in large part it's yeah.

9:43

I mean, that's the legacy of violence and war um

9:46

in Chechnia. But I think it's partly because

9:48

of how this kind of historical

9:51

view of touching as being um, you know, a

9:53

threat a problem for the Russian

9:55

Empire previously, and then Soviet Union and

9:57

then you know independent Russia, you

9:59

know, um. And

10:01

it's really the rule of Ramzan Kadetto, which

10:04

plays a really suppressing role

10:08

in the republic and his security

10:10

services. Chechnia has

10:13

experienced post war. I

10:15

would argue it's it's calmer and in

10:17

a in a strange way. I mean, I was when

10:20

I was doing my field work in the North Cooxus, I visited

10:22

Czechnia. I was in Cambard Noble

10:24

Karia, which is you know, a couple of republics

10:26

over um it didn't experience

10:28

war, but I remember at the time there

10:30

were counter terrorists operations and carver

10:33

Do No Bulkaria where the security services

10:35

would kind of lock down whole neighborhoods

10:37

and kind of storm impartment buildings to go after

10:39

someone who had been you know, identified as a problem

10:42

and just kind of, you know, neutralize that person.

10:44

They were rarely detained, they were just kind of killed,

10:46

no questions us. Then

10:48

going to Chechnia from that kind of context,

10:51

that stuff doesn't happen, just because

10:54

the security apparatus is so

10:56

strong and so intense that

10:59

that kind of thing doesn't happen. At the same time,

11:01

you feel that tension, that kind of fear.

11:04

Um. So I think that's the main reason

11:06

why, um, you're not seeing

11:08

these sort of protests in Chechnya when

11:21

we talk about like what

11:23

is it reasonable to hope for here? I

11:25

wonder if you have any thoughts on that from Dagastan

11:27

like in in terms of resistance to both

11:30

this kind of general conscription order

11:33

and resistance in general to the to the

11:35

increasing imperial aims of the Russian state. Yeah,

11:38

I think it's revealing those tracks that

11:40

I mentioned in the beginning about identity and

11:43

then kind of this this region not feeling

11:45

like a part of Russia. And

11:47

I think, um, the other thing is

11:49

that it

11:51

it it's unprecedented in many ways

11:54

just in terms of its messaging, and you protest

11:56

movements in general are seemed to kind of when

11:59

you participate it in a movement, UM,

12:01

it's it's sort of transforming. On

12:03

an individual level. You feel like you're

12:05

part of something. You see all these other people on

12:08

the street, who are you agreeing with you in

12:11

a context that's so authoritarian

12:13

where and you don't you know, have that freedom to speak

12:16

out there's no free media. UM. In general.

12:19

UM it's it's it's transformative. And

12:22

I think that's probably for me,

12:25

at least as a social movement scholar, the most

12:27

interesting aspects. I mean, we can't predict, we

12:29

don't know what's going to happen. There might be in a

12:31

new wave of repression. UM, but

12:33

it's it's revealing these cracks and

12:36

UM kind of

12:38

almost providing

12:41

this proof of the

12:43

the lie of this you know, unified

12:46

Russian state that that is being kept

12:48

together by a repression and propaganda.

12:50

UM. I think the messaging

12:52

also reflects a change in

12:55

identity, in oppositional identity

12:57

in the region. UM. Previously

13:01

protests in the region were directed

13:04

at the local leadership, so at the republican

13:06

level, right, so these are usually co

13:08

ethnics who are installed by Moscow.

13:11

Not so much to govern, but more to

13:13

manage UM and check and

13:15

leader. Ransankado is an extreme

13:18

case of this, and it was a practice

13:20

common in Imperial Russia. Right, you install your

13:22

own guy, but he's local, so it

13:24

sits better with the population, even

13:27

if they're only there to carry out policies

13:29

that are decided and UM.

13:32

So those protest movements were normally against the Republican

13:34

authorities, um,

13:37

their excesses, their corruption, um

13:40

you know. And again the exception

13:42

to that is philotism, which was targeting both

13:44

Moscow and the local leadership. But

13:46

here in this new

13:49

wave of protest movement, the sentiment

13:51

the grievances against Putin and

13:53

that's totally now. And

13:56

I one of the things that is

13:58

kind of remarkable is as you've

14:01

gotten in the wave of and these are not just

14:03

in Dagistan, but Dagastan had a lot of the protest

14:05

against this general mobilization order, you

14:08

actually have what what looks

14:10

to me and you're you're certainly certainly

14:12

no more than I do. So tell me if you think my analysis,

14:14

if this is wrong, but looks to me like the regime blinking

14:16

a little bit. Because in the

14:19

wake of the protests you had both

14:21

Putin and a number of different local leaders come out

14:23

and say we because one of the things that was

14:25

happening as soon as the mobilization started,

14:27

as you saw a lot of these people, including

14:29

like doctors, healthcare workers, other kinds

14:31

of professionals and industries that are generally

14:34

protected from this sort of thing getting

14:36

pulled in by state forces and effectively

14:38

drafted on the spot along with protesters

14:41

and um. The in the wake

14:43

of the outcry against that, Putin himself

14:45

and a number of other local leaders

14:47

have come out and been like, this was a mistake. We're releasing

14:50

a number of these people, these these certain certain

14:52

you know, we're not supposed to be drafting people

14:54

from these certain professions and whatnot. And to

14:57

me that looked like, well, maybe that's a little

14:59

bit of a blink, um, But I don't know if perhaps

15:01

I'm being overly optimistic there No,

15:04

I agree, um. And it speaks

15:06

to the level of mobilization,

15:08

that kind of unprecedented um

15:11

um levels of mobilization on

15:13

the street, and also

15:16

speaks to the fact that you know, previously Moscow,

15:19

I mean they didn't care as much when the protests

15:21

were directed at the local authorities. I

15:24

mean they did, but not like this,

15:26

this is this is threatening UM. And I

15:28

was listening to an interview of a protest

15:30

organizer from Augustan. He's exiled,

15:33

like he's kind of you know, in touch with the people on the

15:35

ground and he and he was talking about how

15:37

he felt that the reason

15:40

mobilization orders have

15:42

been UM commissioned kind of to the

15:45

Republican regional authorities

15:47

is on purpose so

15:50

that grievances UM

15:52

aren't directed towards Moscow, because it's the

15:54

regional authorities deciding on who's being mobilized

15:56

UM. And it's a kind of deflection

15:59

of aim that he thought was

16:02

by design. And the

16:04

interviewer asked him a couple of other questions. He was

16:06

saying, oh, you know, we're hearing reports

16:08

about the police being really brutal UM.

16:10

And again he was like, no, not really,

16:14

or that's not the point, that's not the question to be asking.

16:16

It's actually deflecting because again,

16:19

the grievance is not to the local police, it's actually

16:21

towards Moscow. Who is you know, the origin

16:24

of this whole problem. And I think

16:26

that's that's a threat. Do

16:38

you have any kind of advice for people if they're looking

16:40

as kind of things continue to develop in

16:42

Dagistan, as there are more protests,

16:45

which I'm sure there will be, are there actually

16:47

like organizations over there

16:49

that can be supported by people, um, including

16:51

you mentioned independent media there. UM.

16:54

I'm just wondering if you have any kind of particular advice

16:56

for folks who might either want to learn more

16:58

about the region what's going on, um,

17:00

or who might want to try and help the people

17:02

who are protesting right now. UM.

17:07

Unfortunately, there's um not

17:09

much for our siders to do a lot of the news,

17:11

and I think it was kind of expecting that. An.

17:14

Yeah, yeah, it's like it's kind of a

17:16

denied context. So where I

17:18

get the news is a couple of telegram channels

17:20

that are only in Russian. UM,

17:23

so that probably doesn't help your audience

17:25

if they don't speak Russian. There's

17:27

a couple of Twitter accounts that I would recommend people

17:29

follow, you know, UM there's

17:31

UM, I don't know, I can

17:34

mention that or yeah please no, absolutely,

17:37

let me quickly find the guide personally. When

17:39

it comes to like where I'm able to get English language

17:42

news about the region, MEDUSA

17:44

is generally kind of like one of the places where I've

17:47

gotten some MEDUSA is a Russian news

17:49

site that's or news organization

17:51

that's banned in Russia. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, a

17:53

MEDUSA journalist just got arrested in Dagastan

17:56

by the State Security Services. UM.

17:59

But you can go to to Dousa dot io

18:01

and that's one place where I've

18:03

come across news that's English language.

18:06

UM. It's not the most detailed

18:08

coverage, but it's kind of hard to find that in English

18:10

about stuff going on in Dagistan. It

18:12

is, it is hard to find, and I would echo that sentiment

18:15

of MEDUSA being a good source for that. UM.

18:18

There's a researcher on Twitter

18:20

named Harold Chambers. His handle is

18:22

Chambers Harold eight, the number eight,

18:25

and he is an analyst and he is posting

18:28

kind of more detailed, you know, in the

18:30

weeds, up to you know, up to date,

18:33

day to day developments from

18:35

from the region. UM.

18:37

And is there anything like as as we I'm kind

18:39

of closing out here, UM,

18:42

that you wanted to particularly get into about

18:44

what's happening over there about kind of, um,

18:47

the development of social movements

18:49

in Dagistan right now that you you find particularly

18:52

fascinating that you'd like to kind of talk about to the audience.

18:55

Yeah, I think, um, the context

18:57

of the Russian war on terrorism in the North, because

19:00

this praised a huge role here UM.

19:03

And I mentioned, you know, the counter terrorists operations

19:05

that that Marcia used to use in the region

19:07

as a repression tool UM,

19:10

so they didn't have to be seal office or kind

19:12

of you know, seeing this extremists

19:14

to be targeted and stuff like that, like secular

19:17

Dukistani's and Chechens were absolutely

19:19

targeted, and and that kind of in those UM

19:22

in in those UM in that context of counter

19:25

terrorism. And it's really the fact that your

19:27

Dugist studies are really tired of the

19:29

repression. People leave

19:32

the Republic and move abroad UM

19:34

because they've been labeled a terrorist and they

19:36

don't want to die UM. And when their family

19:38

send them money UM to support

19:40

them abroad, they get um labeled

19:43

as terrorists because they're helping, you know, support a terrorists.

19:45

So it's it's why

19:47

it's also why the movement is leaderless

19:50

UM, because there's really no intelligencia

19:53

or leaders left in the republic um anymore.

19:55

Anyone who had any kind of critical standpoint

19:58

UM has either been killed or exile, so

20:01

we have to see the mobilization in Augusta is

20:03

kind of you know, with that backdrop. People are

20:05

tired of the repression. Um

20:09

and and yeah, the protests are spontaneous,

20:11

and the fact that it's horizontal is

20:14

also unprecedented, and

20:16

it obviously means that it's much harder to

20:19

repress the movement and suppress

20:21

it because there's no individuals to kind of target.

20:24

That's interesting because that's obviously a global

20:26

trend that we've seen in protest movements,

20:29

not just against the Russian state, but around

20:31

the world. Governments have gotten much

20:33

better at not finding

20:35

leaders in protest movements, compromising

20:38

them, going after them, targeting them, arresting

20:40

them. Um. It's and

20:43

I think this has been a part of why all

20:45

over the world you've seen so many more horizontal

20:48

movements leading street protests

20:50

against different kinds of oppression, because

20:52

it's really the only thing that can't be

20:55

compromised easily by the security forces.

20:59

Yeah, especially in an authoritarian contexts.

21:02

Yeah. Well, um,

21:04

Karina, is there anything else you wanted to say before we

21:06

close out? No,

21:08

No, that's it all right. Well, why don't we talk a

21:10

little bit about your plugs here? Because you

21:12

have a podcast that you're about to be starting.

21:15

Yeah, I'm starting a podcast. It is

21:17

called Obscure ston Podcasts,

21:20

where we'll talk about the bizarre and

21:23

fucked up nature of

21:25

the region of eur Asia. Um, but

21:27

also more importantly how it got that way. Yeah,

21:30

so that's what we're doing. I can think a

21:32

few more topics, more important topics

21:34

for people, particularly people just where I live.

21:37

To understand, so many people have been affected

21:39

in in You know, we're looking at the

21:41

energy crisis hitting the UK and

21:44

and to a slightly lesser extent, continental Europe.

21:46

Right now, we're looking at rising food

21:48

prices in the United States, all of it tied

21:50

to this conflict, which people

21:52

wouldn't have been surprised by if they'd

21:55

been paying attention to Eurasian history and

21:57

politics a little bit more. Um.

22:00

So I I think that's a commendable

22:02

effort and I'm excited to start listening. UM.

22:04

Thank you so much. Yes, can I mentioned

22:07

one last thing? So I'm

22:09

I'm sitting in Armenia and speaking to you from Armenia.

22:11

So, UM, I would just encourage your

22:13

listeners to find out

22:15

about what's happening. We were recently attacked

22:18

bios preson and um, we

22:20

have some four d Ande score kilometers that are currently

22:23

occupied by us by Janni soldiers. So I would

22:25

encourage people to learn about the conflict and kind

22:27

of pay attention to what's happening here. Yeah. Absolutely,

22:30

Um, we continue to be big advocates

22:32

for folks paying attention to that.

22:34

Um. And uh

22:36

yeah, it's it's I

22:39

don't know, you know, I had this

22:41

brief period of like optimism when

22:43

the White House started making statements and Pelosi

22:46

visited that, like and we'll see

22:48

maybe that. I know there's like there's

22:50

a vote coming up right now in Congress

22:53

to stop selling weapons to these aries,

22:55

which would be at least a start.

22:58

Um. But I mean, you know, it's

23:00

the what's I think is necessary

23:02

is for our media to have access to the kind of weapons

23:05

that have been so successful at stopping

23:07

for an aggression in other countries. Shall

23:10

we say? Yeah,

23:12

yeah, Well all right, Coriina,

23:15

thank you so much for your time. That's gonna be

23:17

our show for the day. Have a good one.

23:19

Everybody keep paying attention

23:21

to stuff it

23:26

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23:29

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