0:04

Hello everybody, and welcome back to It

0:07

Could Happen Here, a podcast about

0:09

things falling apart and occasionally about

0:11

how to put them back together again. And today

0:13

we have a special episode we're gonna be talking

0:15

about a place where things did in

0:17

fact fall apart and that people

0:20

are you could say, still in the process

0:22

of putting them back together again and trying to do it in

0:24

a way that is much more equitable

0:26

and better than things have been before

0:29

the collapse. That is Rojaba

0:31

in Northeast Syria. UM.

0:34

I'm going to introduce kind of that concept in

0:36

h I'll do it right now. Basically

0:39

if you if you don't know anything about this, you might

0:41

check out our podcast The Women's War UM.

0:43

But it is a it is an autonomous region,

0:46

not a state in northeast Syria that is not

0:48

under the control of the Assad regime UM

0:51

or of any other state in the area. It's

0:53

an independent UM community

0:56

that is based on some pretty

0:58

radical it's it's organ to zation is

1:00

based on some pretty radical political

1:02

philosophies UM in large

1:05

part ones that were sort of initially explored

1:07

by a man named Murray Buchin, who is an American

1:10

social theorist and anarchists anarchist

1:12

political philosopher Um

1:14

and some of his ideas were adopted

1:16

by the leader of a militant group in the region

1:19

called the p K k Um And the

1:21

leader of that group was a guy in a Turkish prison

1:23

named of Dula Augelan, who was you might say,

1:25

a Kurdish freedom fighter. Um Augelon

1:27

encountered books ideas and started

1:30

writing his own books of political theory

1:32

that we're kind of based off of them. And then

1:34

when uh, two thousand thirteen,

1:36

you get the Syrian Civil War reaches

1:39

its kind of height, Isis becomes

1:41

the thing. Suddenly the government's not in this area

1:43

that has a large Kurtish population, Northeast Syria,

1:46

and you know, people

1:48

who are followers of Augelan takeover

1:51

and start as they're fighting.

1:53

Isis instituting this kind of radical feminist,

1:55

egalitarian vision of society which

1:58

is currently under attacked by the Turkish government,

2:00

which is what we're gonna be talking about. So I want to introduce

2:02

our guests for today. First off, we have

2:04

have James Stout and we have Chris

2:06

on the call from our normal Cool Zone

2:08

team, and then our guests today are

2:11

Debbie book Chin Debtie is a journalist

2:13

and author and co editor of the Next Revolution,

2:15

Popular Assemblies and the Promise of Direct

2:18

Democracy. UM. And

2:20

then we also have Megan

2:22

Bodette from the Kurdish

2:24

Peace Institute, where she is the

2:27

director of research. UM. Welcome

2:29

to the show, Megan and Debbie. Thank

2:31

you, it's great to be here. Thank

2:34

you so much, really appreciate it. Yeah,

2:36

thank you both for your time. I think maybe to

2:38

start us out, Megan, UM,

2:41

would you be willing to talk a

2:43

little bit about why the

2:45

Turkish government is so aggressive

2:47

towards this independent region in northeast

2:49

Syria and kind of what the situation on the ground

2:51

is now. Yeah,

2:54

absolutely so. For some

2:56

background, essentially, since the

2:58

division of the Middle East

3:01

into the modern nation states

3:03

that exist there today after

3:06

World War One, with the agreements

3:08

by European powers, the

3:11

Kurdish people have been divided between

3:14

four different states Turkey,

3:16

Iran, Iraq, and Syria, and all

3:18

of those states have had governments that have been

3:21

ethno nationalists, that have been repressive,

3:23

that have not provided Kurds and other ethnic

3:25

and religious minorities equal citizenship

3:28

rights, UM, to participate in politics

3:30

and to practice their culture, to speak

3:32

their language. UM. In addition

3:35

to denying many of these rights to many of

3:37

their other citizens of different

3:39

ethnicities and religions as well. And

3:42

so as a result of this repression,

3:44

and the repression in Turkey was some of

3:46

the strongest and most systemic

3:49

um the Kurdish people in these regions

3:51

have continued to struggle for and

3:53

demand self determination and

3:55

freedom in different political forms.

3:58

What happened in Turkey in the nineteen twenties

4:01

and the nineteen thirties, there were Kurdish

4:03

revolts against the new um

4:05

Turkish Republic, which was

4:08

a very autocratic

4:11

nation state that denied the existence

4:13

of all non Turkish ethnicities.

4:16

And these revolts were all violently

4:18

put down with attacks that not only

4:20

targeted those who tried

4:22

to resist these policies of assimilation,

4:25

but that also resulted in um Turkish

4:28

you know, mass violence against Kurdish

4:30

civilians in these regions. You had

4:32

forced deportations, you had

4:35

ethnic cleansing, you had all kinds

4:37

of brutal violence against civilians in order

4:39

to specifically create this homogeneous

4:42

Turkish ethnic identity

4:44

in Kurdish regions. And so after

4:47

this period of time, there

4:49

were um there was

4:51

a period wherein there was

4:54

less resistance, and I think, you know, the Turkish

4:56

government believed that the

4:59

Kurdish problem had been solved by force.

5:01

They had successfully been able to kill or

5:03

assimilate all of the Kurdish people.

5:06

But in the nineteen seventies

5:08

and the nineteen eighties, sort of concurrent with

5:11

many national liberation movements around

5:13

the world, you had the beginning of

5:15

the PKK or the Kurdistan Workers

5:17

Parties national liberation struggle. Now,

5:19

they began as a socialist movement

5:21

seeking an independent and socialist Kurdish

5:23

state, and they saw Kurdistan

5:26

as a colony that was occupied

5:29

by Turkey, and with the colonialism

5:32

of Turkey in Kurdistan, was supported

5:34

by imperialist powers

5:36

in the rest of the world as well, and

5:39

they sought to write that as other national

5:41

liberation movements in Africa,

5:44

Asia, Latin America many places at the

5:46

time did with an armed struggle for

5:48

independence. And in

5:50

responding to the PKK's

5:52

formation and armed struggle, the Turkish state

5:55

once again, rather than acceding

5:58

to any Kurdish demands, they

6:00

responded with brutal,

6:02

violent oppression of not

6:05

only Kurds who were active in the armed struggle,

6:07

not only politically active Kurds,

6:10

but on all forms of Kurdish identity.

6:13

After the military coup in Turkey

6:15

in nineteen eighty, the Kurdish language was

6:17

banned. UM Kurds were

6:19

imprisoned on false charges

6:21

or no charges at all. UM

6:24

torture was prevalent, show trials were

6:26

prevalent. UM any kind of publication

6:29

or other public interaction in Kurdish

6:31

was completely illegal. So there

6:33

was this full scale effort to repress

6:35

the Kurds and any other progressive segments

6:38

of society in Turkey that would have supported

6:40

them, and as the conflict went

6:42

on, Turkey did

6:44

very little to change. By the nineteen

6:46

nineties, the success

6:49

of the Kurdish movement had forced the

6:51

state to recalibrate, as had developments

6:53

in Iraqi Kurdistan with Kords, they're achieving

6:55

autonomy and so you started

6:57

to have the ability of

7:00

Kurdish political actors to work within the

7:02

system. We saw the development of pro Kurdish

7:05

legal political parties at that time, but

7:08

there was still very severe

7:11

repression of any and all things

7:14

Kurdish as they made their demands, even

7:16

of those who increasingly attempted to make demands

7:19

peacefully. So the conflict

7:21

went on throughout the nineteen

7:23

nineties and the two thousands and

7:25

to this day UM despite a peace

7:27

process between the government

7:29

of Turkey and the PKK and

7:31

the Kurdish movement between

7:35

and UM.

7:37

That process failed. When

7:40

Radwan's government saw that

7:43

it was allowing for Kurds

7:45

to take advantage of expanded democratic

7:47

space in Turkey organized and achieve

7:50

electoral political success, the

7:52

government abandoned its commitments and

7:54

sadly returned to war, and

7:57

the conflict has been going on ever since and

8:00

has included, you know, again, not only

8:03

this military component, but this component of

8:05

crushing all forms of organized

8:07

Kurdish political and cultural expression.

8:10

So what we've been seeing in Turkey over

8:12

the past UM nearly a decade,

8:14

now more than a half decade, is the

8:17

repression of the pro Kurdish political

8:19

opposition in parliament, the People's Democratic

8:21

Party or the HDP. UM. We've seen

8:23

repression of Kurdish media, attacks

8:26

on Kurdish journalists. UM,

8:28

we've seen any kind

8:30

of Kurdish activism, not

8:32

only UM that that's explicitly political,

8:35

but any kind of acknowledgment of the Kurdish language,

8:37

of Kurdish colors, of Kurdish clothing

8:40

very readily criminalized and

8:42

this campaign of attacking

8:44

and repressing all things Kurdish has

8:47

of course expanded beyond Turkey's borders.

8:49

So Turkey opposes North Anys Syria

8:52

because the Syrian Kurds have created

8:54

a form of autonomous governance that protects

8:56

and promotes Kurdish rights, because

8:58

they have done so in the framework of the Kurdish

9:01

freedom movement that has its roots in Turkey

9:03

UM and in Ochelan's ideas, as you explained,

9:06

and because they've been able to create

9:10

a successful alternative to the

9:13

very sort of nationalist project

9:16

that the modern Turkish state is based

9:18

on. You know, I would say that

9:20

the Turkish Kurdish conflict, and I don't

9:22

like to call it that, but that is what most people

9:25

call it today, is really a conflict

9:27

now over to competing visions of

9:29

regional order with Turkeys based

9:31

on the right ring wing neoliberal

9:34

nation state and the

9:37

Kurdish movement's vision of a Middle East

9:39

based on self determination, liberation,

9:41

equality for women, and other values

9:44

not only for birds, but for all people. So

9:47

because Northern East Syria represents

9:49

UM both Kurdish

9:52

success and in creating

9:54

an autonomous region, and it represents

9:56

these ideas of the Kurdish freedom movement

9:58

that challenge Turkish National Project

10:01

UM. Turkey has been trying to destroy

10:03

the Autonomous Administration of North and East

10:05

Syria by all possible

10:07

means for a very long time now.

10:10

They've invaded Syrian territory

10:12

twice to attack the Autonomous

10:14

Administration and the SDF, the Syrian

10:16

Democratic Forces, once in

10:18

a Frina in two thousand and eighteen Afrina

10:20

Is in northwestern Syria, and then once in

10:22

two thousand nineteen after

10:25

UM, you know Trump and air Tawan's phone

10:27

call that we all infamously remember,

10:30

in Seri Kanier and tal Abiad

10:32

in northeastern Syria. So

10:35

you've had these two invasions and occupations

10:37

of UM North and East Syria's

10:40

territory that have included not

10:42

only the terrible violence of invasion

10:44

and occupation, but also all

10:47

kinds of crimes against civilians who remained.

10:49

We've seen uptakes in violence

10:52

and abuse of women, ethnically

10:54

motivated, religiously motivated hatred

10:57

and persecution that's driven virtually

10:59

all of the non Arab and non Muslim

11:01

people living in these regions to flee their

11:03

homes. Attacks

11:05

on anyone who is perceived as having

11:07

collaborated with the prior administration

11:10

all being carried out by Turkey and Turkish

11:13

back Syrian militia groups. So

11:15

we've seen the persecution of the civilians in these

11:17

areas with the intent of changing

11:19

demographics and installing not

11:21

only a government sympathetic to Turkey

11:24

and the military structure sympathetic to Turkey,

11:26

but also removing the social base for

11:28

the Autonomous Administration's project. And

11:31

then, in addition to these all out

11:33

attacks on the Autonomous Administration in these

11:35

regions, Turkey continues to threaten

11:37

the territory that North Aneast Syria does

11:39

have left, which is still nearly one third

11:42

of Syrian territory concentrated in

11:44

the northeast. There's been an escalating

11:46

campaign of drone strikes targeting leaders

11:49

in the Autonomous Administration and the STF,

11:51

as well as Syrian civilians.

11:54

Turkey is cutting water access to North

11:56

Aneast Syria by restricting the

11:58

flow of the Euphrates River. This

12:00

is an agricultural region. People depend

12:03

on that water for all

12:05

aspects of life um and certainly for

12:07

the economy. That's caused a

12:09

great deal of suffering. The

12:11

entire Turkish Syrian border

12:13

is very heavily militarized, when you

12:16

drive by it and you see the wall and

12:18

you know, very lit up at night with the barbed wire

12:20

and everything, and you just look

12:22

at you know, these civilian towns, very

12:24

peaceful on both sides. It's something very

12:27

disturbing to see. UM. But it's a highly

12:29

militarized border and it is completely

12:32

sealed border. UM. Turkey

12:34

does not trade with North in East Syria and

12:37

supports an international economic blockade

12:39

on the region, including by pressuring

12:41

its allies to restrict the

12:44

access of goods to North

12:46

and East Syria. So there's economics

12:48

they're going on there. There are really

12:50

every tactic that Turkey is able to

12:53

use, whether military, economic,

12:55

environmental, political, or anything

12:57

else in order to crush

13:00

and destroy on with any serious political

13:02

project and force the Kurdish

13:04

people and the other peoples of that region to flee

13:07

so that there is no base for such a project

13:09

again in the future. They're

13:12

doing everything they can to achieve that outcome.

13:15

So the situation is very

13:17

difficult, and it is a direct

13:19

result of Turkey's you know, century

13:22

old Kurdish question that

13:24

it has been unable and unwilling

13:27

to honestly and

13:29

in good faith a peaceful solution

13:32

to UM. And we'll get to it later,

13:34

but the international community has played a very

13:36

big role in ensuring that that conflict goes

13:38

on with all of those negative consequences for

13:41

Northeast Syria. Yeah,

13:43

I mean, and that's one of the obviously

13:46

Turkey is the second largest military

13:49

in NATO UM and

13:52

has you know, one of

13:54

the things that is such like so messy

13:56

about this is that on paper

13:59

and on the ground, in fact, the United States

14:01

has been supporting the Autonomous Region

14:03

UM in Northeast Syria and particularly

14:06

the White PG and the White PJ, which is you

14:08

know, the militia essentially

14:11

um as as partners in the

14:13

fight against ISIS. And still to this day, right now,

14:15

there's an operation going on in the Al Whole

14:17

camp, which is where a lot of ISIS prisoners

14:20

are held. UM that is like

14:22

a coalition supported operation. At the same

14:24

time that the United States is doing this, we're

14:26

selling weapons to the people who

14:29

are have essentially declared the folks

14:31

that are military has been aiding a

14:33

terrorist organization UM,

14:35

which is a peculiar in frustrating situation

14:38

to say the least. Yeah,

14:41

And and actually the other thing

14:43

that's happening, Robert is

14:45

that you know, Turkey, while

14:47

it's threatening a full scale invasion,

14:50

they've been doing all of these things

14:53

that Megan described sort of on this

14:55

sort of low intensity

14:57

warfare scale, a kind

14:59

of military strategy that uses a whole

15:02

variety of tactics, um

15:04

that are short of you know, a full

15:07

scale invasion, which still may

15:09

come. And so you know, there's

15:11

these extra judicial killings

15:14

of uh, some of the leaders

15:16

of the SDF, which is the

15:18

Syrian Democratic Forces which is the sort

15:20

of umbrella group of the two militia

15:23

Kurdish militias that you described, and which

15:25

also includes many Arab fighters

15:27

and others who have who have been central

15:30

and defeating ISIS at the cost

15:32

I might add of about thirteen thousand

15:35

lives, you know, and

15:37

um, you know, and the and the use of their

15:39

proxy groups like the Syrian

15:42

so called you know s N, a Syrian

15:44

National Army, which is really you

15:47

know, a group of jihadi

15:49

militias that Turkey has kind of assembled

15:51

and now completely is

15:53

responsive to Turkey and and is

15:56

the sort of shock troops for when they went

15:58

did go into Afra and and

16:01

for these other invasions, um,

16:03

you know, economic pressures as Megan

16:06

described. But the point is that this kind of warfare,

16:09

it produces these sort of ongoing

16:12

low level attacks, but

16:14

it keeps it sort of off the radar

16:16

of the of the bigger political

16:18

and and and media machine,

16:21

and therefore it keeps it from getting

16:23

the attention that it really deserves

16:26

in Western societies. It also has

16:28

the impact of displacing

16:30

hundreds of thousands of people, and

16:33

and uh, you know, and and many hundreds

16:35

have also been killed. I'm sure probably

16:38

you're familiar with some of the recent bombings

16:42

by drone that have been occurring in Rojiva,

16:45

which you know, including many civilians,

16:47

school children Turkey.

16:50

Turkeys doesn't care

16:52

at all about about who gets hit,

16:54

and they have been very aggressive,

16:57

um, without any respect for civilian

16:59

cash sualties as well. So

17:01

you know. So, I mean, I think it's

17:04

it's important to also just note that

17:07

this democratic project is

17:09

in Syria is a deep

17:11

threat to Turkey because and and that every

17:14

time Airdoan steps up these military

17:17

sort of disaggression, um,

17:19

it leads him to bryce slightly in the

17:21

polls, which is something that's important to him because

17:24

he has an election coming up next year.

17:26

So there's that sort of political dimension

17:29

to it. But the fact is

17:31

that that Rojeva is

17:33

basically a women's revolution.

17:36

Women are involved in every aspect

17:38

of running society there, the political,

17:41

the social, the economic, and Turkey

17:43

is essentially a femicidal

17:45

state. You know it not only reviews

17:48

women within within Turkey is less

17:50

than human where husbands can basically get

17:52

away with murdering their wives. But

17:54

you know, it targets girls with drones,

17:57

as it did on August eighteenth when a Turkish

18:00

rome bombed to you and supported education

18:02

center for young girls and in Herseka

18:05

and Rosava. So you know, it's

18:08

it's very much, as Megan

18:10

said, a war of ideologies

18:13

as well. Again,

18:24

one of the things that's so frustrating with this so

18:26

historically, the reason why Turkey

18:29

was it was so important for NATO to get Turkey

18:31

as a member is because that's essentially NATO's

18:33

eastern flank. If you're still thinking about that

18:35

big theoretical conflict between

18:37

you know, Russia and UH and the Western

18:40

democracies. That was why, you

18:42

know, part of why why initially like Turkey

18:44

was such a valued partner, and then as time has gone

18:47

on, it's um primarily

18:49

one of the big things is we have a massive air base in

18:51

Turkey in sirlik Um,

18:54

where a number of US nuclear warheads

18:56

are kept. UM. So there's

18:59

a tremendous fear cowardice

19:01

might be a better way to say it, on behalf of politicians

19:04

in the United States and other Western

19:06

countries to actually engage with

19:08

the ethnic cleansings UM

19:10

and with the human rights abuses that the Turkish

19:12

government, particularly under Air to One has

19:15

has continued. And one of the things

19:17

that's really frustrating about this, you know, if you think about

19:19

the way in which ISIS was discussed

19:21

by US media, was discussed by conservatives

19:25

by Donald Trump during his campaign, you

19:27

know, it was this ultimate boogeyman. Well,

19:30

a huge chunk of the support for

19:32

for ISSIS and in fact, even logistics for

19:34

some of their fighters came

19:37

allegedly courtesy of the Turkish

19:39

state, and there's some evidence for this. There's certainly

19:41

evidence of support for wounded

19:43

fighters and kind of a a lax

19:46

policy that allowed a lot of people to come

19:48

through Turkey and get into northeast Syria

19:50

to fight UM. And

19:53

you know, as you noted earlier, thirteen

19:55

thousand, somewhere around their

19:57

fighters men and women UM

19:59

in the YPG and J died

20:02

fighting ISIS in you know UM,

20:04

and we're you know, not just fighting

20:07

ISIS kind of with the backing of the United States.

20:09

But prior to getting any support, one of the most important

20:12

things they did the while

20:15

ISIS was on the move in Iraq as well as

20:17

Syria, they were carrying out an active

20:19

ethnic cleansing, a genocidal operation

20:21

in Mount Sinjar against the z D s UM

20:24

and that was only really stopped

20:26

because while they were fighting a defensive

20:28

war in northeast Syria, the YPG sent

20:31

fighters into Iraq to stop

20:33

the genocide UM and they were successful

20:36

in this. You know, you talked to IS. I have a lot of

20:38

y ZD survivors of the genocide and they'll

20:40

say, the only reason we got out is because of

20:43

you know, the YPG, UM

20:45

and the p k K and the PEAK.

20:48

Well, and that is that it is. It is, so

20:50

we should we could talk a little bit about the p k

20:52

K. They are the the YPG

20:55

and J and the SDF, which is kind of

20:57

the umbrella organization are not recognized

20:59

as terroristorganizations by the United States

21:01

or by most Western democracies. The

21:04

p k K is recognized as a

21:06

terrorist organization. Turkeys

21:08

allegations would be that the YPG and

21:10

j and and other you know militias

21:13

are just p KK affiliates. Um.

21:16

The reality is that they are in quite a fact quite

21:18

closely tied um uh

21:21

and you will you know, but also

21:23

there it's not the exact like when you're in Rajaba

21:26

and you encounter people who are p

21:28

KK, people will speak about them

21:30

differently than they will talk about other people

21:32

who are kind of you know, they're the folks from

21:34

the mountains is the term that I here use the

21:36

most. But the thing

21:39

is, see, here's the problem. The

21:41

problem is that that whatever

21:43

the p k k's history

21:46

is and has been, and it's where

21:49

more than we can get into, the p k

21:51

K made a dramatic

21:54

shift in its ideology and

21:56

has done everything possible to

21:59

try to restart peace

22:01

negotiations with Turkey. So

22:03

first of all, you know, there are several as

22:05

Megan mentioned before, there was a

22:07

piece initiative that went on for a few

22:10

years that then everyone decided

22:12

wasn't um you know, beneficial to him,

22:14

so he stopped it. But the PKK

22:17

and as recently as I think a year

22:19

or two ago, the leader of the p

22:21

KK and the Mountains right Najamil

22:23

Bayek wrote an op ed for The Washington

22:26

Post saying, we want to have talks,

22:29

We want to have a reconciliation with Turkey.

22:31

We're not asking for separate Cornish

22:33

state. All we want is some degree

22:35

of autonomy. And and

22:37

uh, you know, and and it's actually

22:40

to the enduring shame of the

22:42

Western media, including the New York

22:44

Times, that they continue to talk about them

22:46

as a separatist organization. But

22:48

that's another story as well. The

22:51

fact is that these

22:53

um ideologies

22:56

that they both subscribe to p

22:58

k K and the White PG YPG,

23:01

regardless of whether to what extent they

23:03

may be related. The

23:05

political ideology is an ideology

23:08

about direct democracy. It's

23:10

about empowering people at the local

23:12

level. It's about making sure that

23:15

every adult and also the youth

23:17

have a say in their communities.

23:20

And it's as grassroots democratic

23:23

as anything that you could ever imagine.

23:26

And so really, you would think

23:28

that the United States, you know, would

23:30

understand that there's certainly no threat that

23:33

the neither the YPG nor

23:35

the YPG has ever shown

23:37

any aggression towards Turkey, which

23:39

is what makes this idea of a buff the idea

23:41

that they need a buffer zone kind of a joke,

23:44

you know. So really it's

23:46

it's an ideological shift that's

23:49

so profound and so empowering

23:51

to local people that it's also something

23:54

that frankly, those of us who are on

23:56

the left should be much more supportive

23:58

of, I think, than than people

24:00

have been so far. Yeah,

24:03

I mean, the thing that is most remarkable

24:05

because I spent a lot, I spent more time, certainly

24:08

in Iraq than in Syria. And we should

24:10

note here that we're talking about

24:12

Syria today and we're talking about Rojava.

24:14

Turkish aggression against particularly

24:17

UM, against the p KK, but against

24:20

you know, Kurd's kind of in an ethnic sense,

24:22

UM extends beyond Syria. Turkey

24:25

has illegally attacked Iraq and

24:27

in fact moved troops into Iraqi soil

24:30

a number of times, escalating within the

24:32

last year, and killed a substantial number of

24:34

people in the in the Kurdish regional government

24:37

territories. UM. So that

24:39

is also occurring here. Although it's

24:41

it's worth noting again because people

24:43

mix this up a lot. What's happening in Kurdish

24:45

control Iraq is profoundly different

24:47

from what's happening in Rojava, and they're extremely different

24:50

political organization. Yeah.

24:52

I think it's also worth mentioning that it's not just UM

24:55

Kurdish groups have been attacking in Iraq.

24:59

There's been a bun of attacks, like a

25:03

yeah, it's killed a bunch of those people

25:05

too. It is the yeah, they're just they're

25:07

doing the genocide again. Yeah, I

25:09

think, yeah, it's

25:11

u it's

25:14

interesting, you know, I uh,

25:16

it's also kind of worth. The thing that was

25:19

perhaps most surprising to me there was the degree to which

25:22

people I would meet who were just like in

25:24

many cases just like kind of you know, terrorism

25:26

police assays guys, or people who were like working

25:29

traffic checkpoints, are working in the farms. There

25:32

were people were really careful to not refer

25:34

or talk to like what the project

25:37

was as a state, and it's it's not on a state

25:39

a state, it's an autonomous region. That's one of the

25:41

terms I heard the most is the autonomous regions,

25:44

which is is really interesting to me. And it's

25:46

it's hard. It's something certainly like mainstream media

25:48

writing about it, UM seems

25:50

to have trouble grasping, as you say, And

25:52

it's it's interesting because obviously, Debbie,

25:55

in case folks haven't put it together you are the daughter

25:57

of Murray book Chin, who is the who

26:00

is the political philosopher whose

26:02

ideas formed a significant core

26:05

of of sort of what the organizational

26:07

structure in is. UM.

26:10

Well, I just want to say, first of all, thank you

26:13

for that. But I also just want to say

26:15

that I really want to remind everybody

26:17

that, of course, you know, Abdullah Chelan read

26:21

hundreds and hundreds of books, not just

26:23

my dad's, so I mean, I appreciate

26:25

that, but you know they have He has really

26:28

especially placed emphasis on the need

26:30

for any revolutionary project

26:33

to have the liberation of women at

26:35

its core. My dad talked a lot about

26:37

hierarchy and patriarchy, but Chilan,

26:40

by making women central, has

26:43

really done something unique

26:45

I think, you know, in in the history

26:47

of because in the history of sort

26:49

of revolutionary you know movements,

26:52

because as many women who have

26:54

participated in those movements in the past

26:56

can tell you, it was always sure fight

26:59

with us and will do with the women's issue when

27:01

the revolution is over, and a

27:03

Gelan turned that upside down, you know,

27:05

and he said it's got to be a women's revolution.

27:09

And the women in those movements over

27:11

there really fought for that themselves. To

27:14

UM, and one of the things that you know, it was most interesting

27:16

for me to see, UM, was

27:18

when I would go into meetings there

27:21

with women in all kinds of different you

27:23

know, military and civilian institutions

27:25

and different cities across the region, that before

27:27

I would even bring it up as a researcher,

27:30

you know, women would say to me that if it

27:32

weren't for A. Gelan's theories, we

27:34

wouldn't have the organizations that we had,

27:37

we wouldn't have the political power that

27:39

we have. And they have this incredible

27:41

articulation of how they use these

27:43

ideas, you know, as inspiration for their

27:46

own work and also as

27:48

almost political cover to do kinds

27:50

of things that wouldn't

27:53

be accepted in other places because they

27:55

can go to men who they work with

27:57

who might be suspicious, but who you

27:59

know, have this public stated claim

28:01

to this ideology and they can

28:03

say, well, Gelon's books say

28:06

that society can never be free without

28:08

women's liberation, that women's can have their

28:11

own separate institutions. So they've been able to

28:13

really take these ideas

28:15

and expand on them

28:18

and you know, push them and use them

28:20

with their own practice. UM.

28:22

And the way that the ideas came about themselves.

28:25

One book that I would recommend anyone interested

28:27

in the Kurdish movement,

28:30

UM, in revolutionary women's movements

28:32

anywhere in the world, and really any topic

28:34

related to any of this to read is

28:37

UM, the autobiography of Sakina

28:39

Johnson's, who was the only woman

28:42

present for the founding of the PKK

28:44

and was really instrumental in

28:47

organizing both the armed and civilian

28:49

sides of the Kurdish women's movement

28:51

in Turkey. UM there are pictures

28:54

of her everywhere in Syria. She was assassinated

28:57

in France in two thousand thirteen by

28:59

Turkey nationalists affiliated

29:01

with the state, likely suspected,

29:04

you know, hoping to disrupt the peace negotiations

29:06

that were ongoing at that time. But she's

29:08

remembered everywhere in northeast Syria

29:11

for her role, and you can see in her

29:13

book her talking about seeing the inequalities

29:15

that, as Debbie mentioned, women in socialist

29:18

movements and revolutionary movements often

29:21

faced where they were asked to, you

29:23

know, be as committed to this struggle as

29:25

their male comrades were, but we're still

29:27

treated in very patriarchal

29:29

ways by men that they worked with, because

29:33

you know, the patriarchy embedded into these

29:35

societies, and you see her

29:37

talking about organizing

29:40

women to overcome this. UM.

29:42

And when you look at the history of the Kurdish

29:44

movement moving into what you see in Northeast

29:46

Syria as well, you know, women

29:49

were really able to do

29:51

so much in practice that the theory had

29:53

to move to catch up to them. And then

29:55

to take this new incredible theory of

29:57

you know, women's oppression being the basis

29:59

of all oppression UM and the form

30:02

of oppression that you know must be addressed

30:04

to free all members of society in

30:06

all ways. You know, they took this and

30:09

they continued to expand it so in

30:12

a very difficult place in context to do so.

30:14

I mean we know that in more UM,

30:17

there's more violence against women, there's more

30:19

discrimination, there's more emphasis on traditional

30:21

gender rules. That this holds true across

30:24

different societies and different conflicts. So

30:26

they have UM that they face

30:29

many challenges. They're up against a lot here,

30:31

certainly, you know, with all the problems UM

30:34

that they're facing in Northeast Syria because

30:36

of conflict and poverty, UM, everything

30:39

that Turkey is doing that we've discussed, So

30:41

they're up against a lot and it's

30:43

not easy, but they've really, you

30:45

know, they've come incredibly far. Um.

30:48

And seeing how you

30:50

know, they've taken very

30:52

high level theoretical ideas and

30:55

then done so much in practice, and how

30:57

their practice and theory from each other.

30:59

Um, really one of the most incredible things to see

31:01

over there. Um. And it's another

31:04

reason why Turkey wants to destroy

31:06

them, because arid Land does not believe that women

31:08

can be equal to men. Um. He does not see

31:10

male violence against women as a problem.

31:13

And yeah, you know, as we've discussed,

31:16

Turkey and the Kurdish movement couldn't be any

31:18

more different on this question. No, And

31:21

it's um, I think the thing

31:23

because you know, going over there, I went with

31:25

the eye as a journalist where like I had heard

31:27

all these things and and Rojava has

31:29

kind of become among some chunks of the left,

31:32

chunks of the left that cause celeb in

31:34

part because of you know, the achievements

31:37

of the revolution in that space, and I wanted

31:39

to see how legitimate is it? And

31:41

um. Part of why you know I kind of went

31:43

in with that attitude is that I had spent so much

31:46

time in the Kurdish regions of Iraq, and if

31:48

if you remember when the fighting

31:50

against ISIS was at its height, there was a tremendous

31:52

amount of coverage of the female Peshmerga

31:55

and the fact that you know, the Kurds in northern

31:57

Iraq, who were the worst force in Iraq

31:59

that collapsed the least when

32:01

ISIS was on the advance. Um,

32:03

it's overstated how well they did. That's why

32:06

the YPG needed to rescue the z e s

32:08

At Sinjar Is. The the Kurdish

32:10

military in northern Iraq just kind of bounced

32:13

at that point. But um, you know,

32:15

I had heard about you know these that that

32:17

this woman's right situation is great in northern

32:20

Iraq. It's very egalitarian. There's women

32:22

fighters, and it is it's certainly and

32:24

anyone who lives there will tell you much

32:27

safer and easier to be a woman. In the

32:29

KRG, the Kurdish region like control

32:32

Kurdish Regional Government parts of Iraq

32:34

than it is further south in the country.

32:36

But that doesn't mean it's it's good.

32:39

It is. It is more like certain things are somewhat

32:41

more tolerated, there's more freedom,

32:44

but it's still a very traditionalist society.

32:46

And for example, I didn't see any female

32:49

Peshmerga. UM, they did

32:51

not make much of a presence on the ground and and

32:53

there there their involvement

32:56

in the fighting was exaggerated somewhat as part

32:58

of a conscious pr strategy. UM.

33:01

As soon as you cross in

33:03

to northeast Syria, you see

33:05

women manning and running checkpoints stations

33:08

you see as you go in because there's like you

33:10

know, they like you get like passport

33:12

and stuff like looked at and you get like stamps

33:14

and whatnot. When you kind of come into the to

33:16

the region, UM, you see a

33:19

lot of women like running that part of the operation.

33:21

You go in to the actual

33:23

country itself and there's we we visited

33:27

a restaurant that was run by a collective

33:29

of women who had all lost husbands in the fighting. We

33:31

ran. We went to a farm that was all young

33:33

women who had left their families

33:36

who were very traditionalist in their religious

33:38

attitude. UM. And and go on independent

33:40

and of course you see um, female

33:42

military units and female we saw mixed male

33:44

and female like military policing units and

33:46

stuff. And it's it's one of those things

33:48

that if you are going there kind

33:50

of with a critical eye to try and

33:53

see how extensive the revolution can be. I can't

33:55

imagine not being convinced of the reality

33:57

of it, because it's it's just so start

34:00

well also, Robert, you know, first

34:03

of all, just to again, you could

34:05

say a lot about what's going on in

34:07

in Iraqi Kurdistan,

34:10

but just to very quickly

34:12

sum it up, I mean, it is a capitalist

34:14

petrol state run by a plan

34:17

the Barzanies, you know who

34:19

who a crew basically

34:22

all the wealth to themselves. And you

34:24

can't even begin to compare it with

34:26

with the kind of revolutionary project

34:28

in Syria. So I mean, I just

34:30

want to in case so people understand.

34:32

I mean, I don't want to use

34:35

I hate to use the word socialist because

34:37

it's such a it's so fraught, but you

34:39

could the closest thing, you know, it's

34:41

a it's built on a socialist economic

34:43

model, except a better one, well more

34:45

like what my father and what Abdullah

34:48

clan have in mind, which my father called

34:50

communalism, and this democratic confederalist

34:53

model is based on cooperatives,

34:55

you know, where people really do um

34:58

have the means control the means production

35:00

as much as possible. I mean, it's obviously

35:03

all you know, still in formation,

35:05

it's still growing and

35:08

like the energy sector where things

35:10

that you know are less like that.

35:12

But are I hope

35:15

in that direction. Yeah, I mean obviously

35:17

no, this is certainly not some kind of perfect

35:19

utopian in the middle of a war zone.

35:22

But but as you pointed out, what you see

35:24

when you go there is women so active

35:27

in every aspect. I would add to to what

35:29

the great examples you gave the women's

35:31

houses to

35:34

talk about that right where

35:36

they are literally resolving

35:38

so many problems for both men and

35:41

women, you know, at the community level, and

35:43

and so it's it's really quite

35:46

an extraordinary you know, I

35:48

guess what I want to say about it is that

35:51

like if if we all got

35:53

on board of you know, one of that

35:55

that Cretan elon Musk's space

35:57

ships and

36:00

found a colony you know where they

36:02

were doing this, we'd be cherishing

36:05

it. We'd be going, oh my god. You know, look

36:07

at these people. They're like they have a cooperative

36:10

economy and they have women's

36:13

councils at every level. Wow, men

36:15

can't overrule women on a decision

36:17

that comes to say women's bodies. Think

36:20

here the Dobbs decision right on the Supreme

36:22

Court. Women only women

36:24

can can decide those issues that

36:26

are related to women. And there

36:29

there are councils at every level and people sending

36:31

delegates, you know, meeting in their little

36:34

villages and towns and communities

36:36

and electing delegates to the next level.

36:38

It is a true grassroots democracy,

36:41

and it's ecological, and it's feminist.

36:44

It's like if Ursula La Gwinn we're writing

36:46

about it and the disgust, we'd all be going

36:48

wow. So so really,

36:51

you know, it's something that I think, especially

36:54

anybody who considers themselves a feminist,

36:56

you know, should be supporting and

36:59

and certainly and I hope all of us do,

37:01

you know, And and certainly

37:03

anybody you know I would think who's an anarchist.

37:06

To me, it's pretty close to an every

37:08

anarchist's dream, you know. And

37:11

and so I think, yeah, I

37:13

just wanted to make that contrast with Iraq

37:15

because I think it's really important, really

37:17

goes to why the Kurdish project

37:20

really needs very

37:22

badly the support of people

37:25

in the United States, because in so

37:27

many ways, the United States kind

37:29

of calls the shots about what can

37:31

and cannot happen over there if

37:34

you look at the problems they have, you know,

37:36

to all of that. Because of course, all

37:38

of these places are not perfect,

37:40

and have you know, these serious issues alongside

37:43

these serious achievements. Every

37:46

issue that they have is an issue that

37:48

any society would have if that

37:50

society had been through ten years

37:52

of war. Um, we're impoverished

37:55

and blockaded from virtually all

37:57

economic activity with the outside world

38:00

if they had had to not only you

38:02

know, fight the occupation of a group

38:04

like ISIS, but then immediately turn around

38:06

to fight a state army much larger

38:09

than them, you know, bent on taking

38:11

and occupying their territory. A society where

38:13

people fear going outside because

38:15

they don't know if they'll be in the wrong place

38:17

at the wrong time when there'll be a

38:20

drone strike on a local military

38:22

leader going around doing their job keeping their

38:24

communities safe from ISIS, or a local

38:26

political leader going around doing

38:28

their job trying to you know, build this

38:30

new system. So I think when

38:32

we look at the flaws, their

38:35

flaws that are the result

38:38

of in large part poverty

38:40

and conflict and all of the

38:42

compounding crisis crises

38:44

that the people of North

38:46

Aneas Syria have to face because of what

38:49

they've gone through, you know, as Debbie mentioned,

38:51

much at the hands of larger

38:53

powers. So much of what happens in Syria

38:56

is up to what the United States wants,

38:59

up to what Russia wants, up to what Turkey

39:01

wants. UM. All of

39:03

these countries and regions, you know, with

39:05

different priorities, different outlooks,

39:07

but it somehow happens that at the end of the day,

39:10

you know, the one thing they can all agree on is

39:12

that, Um, it's

39:14

okay to sell

39:16

out the autonomous administration, It's okay to have

39:18

consequences for them. You know, if the Courtish people

39:21

suffer, the zd people suffer,

39:23

the people of northern East Syria, all of these different

39:26

demographics, if they're the people who are

39:28

victimized, you know, because they don't have a

39:30

state, because they're fighting for something

39:32

different, because they're challenging the status quo,

39:35

it's okay if they're the ones who faced the consequences.

39:37

We saw this, you know, with what happened with Isis.

39:40

We saw this with the complete international silence

39:42

when a fren was invaded, with the

39:44

you know, piecemeal response that stopped

39:47

the Turkish invasion in twenty nineteen, but

39:49

allowed them to convert what they were doing to this kind

39:51

of low intensity war. UM. You know, with a terrible

39:54

ceasefire, you know, with undefined

39:56

lines, and with these drone strikes

39:59

being allowed in air is where Russia

40:01

and the United States, both of which have agreements

40:03

with Turkey, are active, um,

40:05

you know, and both of whom tolerate this. So

40:08

essentially every powerful interest

40:11

in Syria can agree on,

40:14

you know, ensuring that the autonomous administration

40:17

comes in last. And as

40:19

people in the US, you know, anyone who considers

40:21

themselves on the left, who considers

40:23

themselves a feminist, who cares about persecuted

40:26

ethnic and religious minorities, who

40:28

opposes endless war and militarist

40:30

foreign policy that props up autocrats

40:33

and you know, props up far right regimes.

40:36

Anyone with any of those values should be very

40:38

concerned about the situation in Northeast

40:40

Syria right now and should be looking at what we

40:42

can do to UH, to get

40:44

our government to stop supporting

40:46

some of these very harmful policies

40:49

against the region, you know, even while it claims

40:51

to be supporting their fight against isis. What

41:05

can people listening here,

41:07

presumably most of you are in the United States

41:10

or Canada or Western Europe, What

41:12

can people listening here, particularly

41:14

in the US, do they have an

41:16

impact to help. Well, we

41:19

could talk about that. Um, we could have

41:21

an entire other podcast episode on that,

41:23

because there's a lot to be done. But you

41:25

know, to summarize in a few words, the

41:28

way that the United States supports Turkey's

41:30

war on the Kurdish people, all

41:33

the peoples of the region and the Kurdish National

41:35

Liberation movement is

41:37

through military cooperation

41:40

and support, through diplomatic cooperation and

41:42

support, intelligence sharing, and

41:44

these pro war legal pretexts.

41:47

So go tell Congress

41:49

that you don't want them to send

41:52

weapons to Turkey. There's an EP six team

41:54

sale right now. That Um,

41:56

it was really great to see the majority

41:59

of Congress in Looting. All of the squad

42:01

members, people like AOHC. Rashida

42:04

Talai, Bilhan Omar all opposed

42:06

that sale. So opposing

42:09

arms sales very important something that

42:11

there's momentum there for um

42:13

and that there's momentum among progressives

42:15

therefore, which is very heartening. Opposing

42:18

military aid and security assistance

42:21

to Turkey. You know, I've done research

42:23

on this. U S Security assistance has

42:25

trained senior Turkish officials, including

42:27

the country's current defense minister and

42:30

several perpetrators of the violent

42:32

repressive nineteen eighty military coup.

42:35

Obviously, we should not be training

42:37

coup plotters and war criminals. That is

42:39

not something I think most people learning this want

42:42

their tax dollars to go to. So

42:44

calling for an end to U

42:46

S security assistance to Turkey very important

42:49

in addition to ending those arms sales

42:52

and challenging the pro war

42:54

legal pretexts and designations

42:57

that allowed Turkey to get this kind

42:59

of Western support. Or you know, a wonderful

43:01

thing that we saw a couple of weeks back

43:03

was the Democratic Socialists of America,

43:05

the largest socialist organization in the US,

43:08

saying that they oppose the

43:11

terror designation of the PKK and believe

43:14

it should be delisted. That's something

43:16

that progressive support very strongly.

43:18

In Europe. We've seen, you know, calls

43:20

from places like Ireland

43:22

and South Africa where people know a lot

43:25

about you know what terror designations

43:27

and you know, the criminalization of struggles,

43:29

you know, can can have impacts on conflict

43:32

resolution. You know, people who participated

43:34

in these kinds of post conflict processes

43:36

in some of these places saying get

43:39

rid of the designation. It's harmful for peace.

43:41

You know, it will be difficult to end

43:43

this less violently without it. So

43:46

that's something where you know, it

43:48

seems the international case for it is

43:50

something that's rather obvious, and where pressure

43:53

in the US on the US designation

43:55

to remove it would be an important step

43:57

for facilitating dialogue

44:00

and a negotiated end to this

44:02

conflict. So understanding

44:05

how the US supports Turkey's wars

44:07

on the Kurdish people and opposing

44:10

all of those different policies

44:13

and programs as one of the most important

44:15

things that we can do to say this war is

44:17

not in our name. We stand with

44:19

the people of northeast Syria, with the people in

44:21

Turkey suffering from Turkish authoritarianism,

44:24

with the people in Iraqi, Kurdistan, uzd

44:27

S and Shngal being bombed by Turkish drones.

44:30

When we say that we don't want to support this war,

44:32

we stand with all of those people. Um

44:35

And I think that that kind of action

44:37

against arms, sales, security assistance,

44:39

and pro war legal pretexts could be a

44:41

really great base for solidarity

44:44

opposing endless war in the Middle East and

44:47

standing up for you know, peacefully

44:49

ending this conflict. Um And it would align

44:51

us with progressives all

44:53

around the world, and you know, people who

44:57

really believe in in peace and

44:59

in ending these kinds of things. And

45:01

and if I could just add, you know, one

45:04

one element to that would also

45:06

be really pressing for

45:09

a diplomatic solution to

45:11

the whole so called Kurdish question,

45:14

because Rojeva will remain

45:17

in danger as long as

45:19

air Dewan and and his and his

45:21

party think that they

45:24

can basically that they

45:26

have to be fighting Kurds because

45:29

you know, to them, as Megan said before,

45:31

Rojeva is an extension of their own Kurds

45:33

and of the PKK. So what

45:35

but but what really needs to happen, just

45:37

as as it happened in South Africa, is

45:39

there has to be a negotiated

45:42

settlement. One of the things that would help

45:44

with this, and there are movements that people

45:46

can get involved with if they want, would

45:48

be free in a Chelan who has been in

45:50

a sitting in a Turkish jail

45:52

for the last twenty two years because

45:55

he is sort of the Nelson Mandela really

45:57

of of the Kurdish freedom movement, and he's

46:00

would be involved in these negotiations

46:02

and was even while he was in jail.

46:04

But really, you know, a jail

46:06

person can't really do that properly,

46:09

So pressing for a diplomatic

46:12

solution because basically

46:16

rat one uses the p k k

46:19

UM and the listing of the PKK as a terrorist

46:21

organization to basically kill

46:24

all Kurds everywhere, and

46:27

in order to stop that, somehow

46:29

there has to be a break in this. And

46:31

so I think that, you know, people,

46:34

there are certainly plenty of peace

46:36

organizations and people who want to work on

46:38

peace, and I think this is a really

46:40

important demand that they begin that

46:43

the United States and the United

46:45

States has nothing to lose by pressuring

46:47

Turkey to engage in negotiations

46:50

with the p k k This is an hour war.

46:52

The p KK has never done anything to the United

46:55

States. It would make, as Megan said,

46:57

for a lasting peace in the entire

47:00

Middle East, And would you know,

47:02

And and so what I would say

47:04

is, first of all, folks, would

47:06

be great if people who want more information

47:09

about any of this could contact

47:11

the organization that I helped co found,

47:14

the Emergency Committee for Rojeva,

47:16

which is at defend Rojeva

47:19

dot org. And we have scripts

47:21

to call congress Person's resources

47:24

and we even have fun monthly meetings

47:27

that people can come to. Um

47:29

you know, and there's of course a lot of information

47:31

at Megan's website also Kurdish

47:34

Peace dot org. But you

47:36

know, one of the things that people could do

47:38

is go out and talk to their communities,

47:41

whether it's a religious community or a

47:43

labor union or a food coop

47:46

or your kids nursery school

47:48

or reading group, women's group, and

47:50

sort of talk and and help because

47:53

there's a lot of people who surprisingly

47:55

really don't know much about

47:57

Roojeva. I think maybe because they're the

48:00

cause, the Zabatistas are a little closer

48:02

geographically that that project

48:04

is a bit better known, you know, So

48:07

talking to people and getting people engaged,

48:09

and for example, if there's anybody listening

48:11

from New Jersey. Bob Menendez

48:14

is the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations

48:16

Committee, and he's been pretty

48:19

hostile towards Air to one and and

48:21

keeping on him with phone

48:23

calls emails is a

48:25

great way, you know, for for our

48:28

m As somebody who worked in

48:30

Washington for a while when I worked for Bernie

48:33

Sanders, I know that these guys

48:35

listen to their constituents, you

48:37

know, and if they get enough calls, they start

48:39

to pay attention to those things that they

48:41

come around. We could even get, you know, somebody

48:44

to send a letter around to their

48:46

colleagues in Congress saying, you

48:48

know, it's time to start peace

48:51

negotiations. Those kinds of things do

48:53

have impact because, as I said before,

48:55

unfortunately the United States is really

48:58

at the helm and on so many ways of

49:00

what happens internationally in these

49:02

geopolitical battles.

49:06

UM. Well, thank you so much, Debbie,

49:08

Thank you so much, Megan. UM. I

49:10

think that's that's going to do it for us today.

49:12

UM. Please, you know, continue

49:15

paying attention to this. Um. Did

49:17

you want to you know, Megan, did you have anything

49:19

else you wanted to kind of kind of add um

49:22

or let people know actually both of you

49:24

would let people know where they can follow you on

49:26

the internet. Yeah.

49:28

Well, I mean I think

49:31

that that about covers it. Look, the only

49:33

solution for peace,

49:35

democracy and self determination in

49:38

Turkey and in the wider Middle East is

49:41

a just and democratic, negotiated

49:43

settlement to the Kurdish question.

49:46

And I think that just as Debbie

49:48

said, learn about what's going on,

49:51

reach out to your communities, talk to

49:53

your local Kurdish community if there is one,

49:56

find the opportunities that there are to engage

49:59

with people in Turkey, in Syria

50:01

and all of these places, you know, working for

50:03

peace and standing up for these ideas,

50:06

and then no efforts too small,

50:08

because ending this conflict

50:11

would benefit everyone in Northeast Syria, everyone

50:13

in Turkey and all of us here, you

50:15

know, knowing that our government was no longer supporting

50:18

this terrible, unjust war. UM,

50:21

So just get out there and do something.

50:23

UM. To see the work that

50:26

the think tank where I work UM is

50:28

doing on this issue, you can go

50:30

to Kurdish Peace dot org where

50:33

we have research and analysis on everything

50:35

related to do related to

50:37

the Kurdish issue from all different

50:39

perspectives, and

50:42

you can check out our work there, UM.

50:44

And you can follow me on Twitter UM

50:47

Megan Bodette and the Twitter

50:49

handle is at five

50:51

underscores m j B excellent.

50:54

My Twitter is simpler. It's

50:57

just Debbie book Shin at

50:59

Debbie book Action. And again

51:02

I just want to say that you know

51:04

people we do at defend Rojeva

51:07

dot org and we're also on Twitter

51:09

at defend Rojeva. We have

51:12

so many ideas and so

51:14

much information about how people can

51:16

get involved. Is making said, if nothing

51:18

else, no more weapons to Turkey

51:21

until they begin peace negotiations,

51:24

give Rojeva political recognition,

51:27

that would be another thing people can be demanding

51:30

also that curds have a place at the bargaining

51:33

table and any discussions about the

51:35

future of Syria. So we have all

51:37

those kinds of ideas, scripts,

51:39

as I said, model emails and

51:42

more at defend Rojeva

51:44

dot org. Awesome, UM,

51:46

thank you all for for being

51:48

on and um, yeah, that's going to do it for us

51:50

here. It could happen here for the day.

51:53

Thank you for having us. Thanks.

52:00

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52:02

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