0:04

Welcome back to it could happen here

0:06

a show about how things are following up

0:09

art at least generally, a show about how things are falling

0:11

apart, um and how to you know,

0:13

maybe maybe not falling apart that much. But

0:15

we have a we have a little bit of a different episode

0:17

for you today. A friend of a friend

0:20

of mine reached out to me recently in the wake of

0:22

a pair of episodes we did From Behind the Bastards

0:24

on sexual abuse within the Boy Scouts of

0:26

America, which was, if you're not aware, and endemic

0:29

problem, with more than a hundred

0:31

thousand victims having come forward in the last year

0:33

alone. UM. And this is a case

0:35

that kind of ties into that. Uh. It's

0:37

it's the case of a young man UM

0:40

who committed murder and the young man who was also

0:43

UM a victim of

0:45

a terrible series of crime. So I wanted to kind

0:47

of shine a little bit of light on the case

0:49

of Heath Stocks today. UM.

0:51

And to help me do that is Mr Michael Kaiser.

0:54

Michael, welcome to the show, Good

0:56

afternoon, Thanks for having me. Michael.

0:59

Would you like to introduce is kind of your affiliation

1:01

with this case before we go over the broad strokes

1:03

of it. Sure. Um,

1:05

Again, my name is Michael Kaiser. I'm a criminal

1:08

defense attorney with the Last and Cassinelli

1:10

Firm in Little Rock, Arkansas. UM.

1:13

This case started in the nineties

1:15

and I was I'm thirty

1:17

two, so I was not practicing. Then I came

1:20

into this case in the last

1:22

two years after Heath has

1:24

already I've been sentenced to

1:26

three life sentences, and I

1:28

assisted him in filing a

1:30

petition for a commutation asking

1:33

for the Governor of Arkansas to reduce those

1:35

sentences to a term of years and giving him

1:37

a chance of parole while he is still alive. And

1:40

and can we, uh, let's go over kind

1:42

of what happened in this case the basis

1:45

because this is this is a really

1:47

sad story, UM, and it's

1:49

one of those things where there's

1:52

there's not a lot of I think, easy answers.

1:54

But yeah, let's let's talk about sort of the broad strokes

1:56

of what happened, and then we can drill into what

1:58

what you're trying to achieve. Year. Sure,

2:01

so the broad strokes are back in nine seven,

2:06

UM, when Heath was a young man, UM,

2:10

just twenty years old. UM,

2:12

he was arrested and charged with

2:14

killing his entire immediate family,

2:17

both his mother, father, UM,

2:19

and his younger sister. He

2:21

was quickly identified as the

2:23

primary suspect, questioned,

2:26

confessed, arrested, charged,

2:28

and within I believe six

2:30

months, had pleaded guilty to all three capital

2:32

murders and received a sense of life

2:36

without parole for each each one of those,

2:38

for a total of three life sentences. UM.

2:41

Shortly after he was convicted,

2:44

UM, it came to light that his longtime

2:46

boy scout scout Master Jack

2:49

Walls had been molesting

2:52

Heat since he was around age nine or ten.

2:54

UM that it was a serial

2:57

sort of abuse, that he that Heath was

2:59

not the only one. UM, that

3:01

it was particularly brutal, and that

3:04

his abuse didn't just

3:06

involve you know, sexual acts.

3:09

UM, it was kind of a long term

3:12

I hate to use the term brainwashing, but a lot of

3:14

people have about what he did to those

3:16

boys. UM. Heats is not the

3:18

only life that was ruined. He's

3:20

family is not the only families

3:22

lives who were ruined. UM, but Heats

3:24

is unfortunately the most extreme case

3:27

UM where where he he ultimately

3:29

committed a crime against against his

3:31

family. We'll get into the circumstances

3:34

in a second, I just want to add a little bit of clarification

3:36

that the Scout master, we're looking at

3:38

between a hundred and a hundred and fifty victims,

3:41

kind of conservatively based on what I've been reading.

3:43

Yes, Yeah, and it's it's

3:45

some of I mean, it's so this

3:48

guy. Some of it's the stuff that you heard in a

3:50

lot of these other cases. Some of it is is very unique

3:52

to this guy. But he would basically he

3:54

would have people over, kids over

3:56

camping on his land. Um, he would take

3:58

them shooting, he worked for any munition company.

4:01

UM, he would molest them. He would also like

4:03

purchase prostitutes for them. And it

4:06

was this, UM, I mean a

4:08

lot of of really some of the

4:10

worst abuse that I've read about in connection

4:12

to any of these these boy scout sexual

4:14

abuse cases. UM, it's it's pretty

4:17

harrowing stuff when you read the stories of other

4:19

kids, um, who were

4:21

kind of in the same position that Heath was. Yeah,

4:25

Unfortunately, you're you're correct. It's

4:27

you know, every time you think this can't get worse,

4:29

or this case is so extreme, that

4:31

you find some other element that's more offensive,

4:34

more appalling, more victims,

4:36

more more families ruined down

4:38

the line even um today thirty

4:41

forty years fifty years later. M.

4:45

Yeah, so how does the because

4:48

I mean, one of the things about this is this

4:50

is a pretty the initial crime here is

4:53

pretty horrific, um, And

4:55

I think it's it's one of those things where it

4:58

is hard to have a lot of sympathy for he until

5:00

you kind of learned about what

5:03

this guy like, his his

5:05

his role in the crime, because it was not just

5:07

a case of, um, you know,

5:09

a kid committing murder. It was a case

5:11

of a kid being um,

5:14

very deliberately pushed into

5:16

committing murder, and potentially I think that

5:18

there's the allegations being

5:20

made her that he was he directly helped

5:23

with it as well. Yes,

5:26

Um, so you know, at

5:28

first glance, yeah, it looks it looks really bad

5:30

for Heath, um. But over the years,

5:32

um, what we have learned is that what

5:34

what really happened is that Heath

5:36

had been serially abused sexually, physically,

5:39

emotionally and otherwise by Jack for a period

5:41

of ten plus years. His

5:44

mother discovers the abuse

5:46

and discusses it with her, her

5:48

pastor another religious counselor.

5:51

Uh. Heath informs

5:53

Jack that you know, his mother is aware,

5:56

and and Jack instructs Heath to do as

5:58

he's been taught, UM, and and

6:01

to kill the problem. UM.

6:04

Jack was never convicted

6:06

with anything associated with the death of

6:09

of the Stocks family. UM.

6:11

However, his first set of life

6:13

sentences for the many assaults

6:16

that he was convicted of, UM, when

6:18

they were reversed. It was because the judge in

6:20

that in that sentencing hearing said, you

6:22

know that the death of the Stocks family is also

6:24

on your hands. And because he hadn't been

6:26

formally convicted of that, he actually had his

6:28

original life sentences reversed. Every

6:31

sentencing he got essentially the same sentence,

6:33

multiple life sentences in additional years.

6:36

UM. But yes, there there's there is a

6:38

connection. UM. It wasn't

6:40

known at the time, or at least it wasn't

6:42

publicized, And if if

6:45

it had been, I think the results of his case

6:47

would be very different. I don't think you and I would be speaking

6:49

right now. Yeah. And it's I mean,

6:51

obviously like, this is this

6:54

is this is a thoroughly horrible

6:56

situation. UM. And when

6:58

somebody commits three murders, I

7:01

think even people who are very critical of

7:03

the criminal justice system should agree that, like something

7:05

needs to be done, But I it

7:07

just seems so unfair

7:10

to lock this kit up for his entire life

7:13

without kind of and and and

7:16

acting as if this was just a thing he

7:18

did on his own, rather than kind of the result

7:21

of a pretty horrific I

7:24

mean, one of the most one of the most horrific

7:26

patterns of abuse and exploitation

7:29

of a of a child that I can imagine. UM

7:32

And I don't know, I

7:34

don't know what would actually like help other

7:37

than getting him into a situation

7:39

where he's not spending the rest of his life in

7:41

a prison cell. Like I don't know what the long term

7:44

for him looks like in terms of rebuilding

7:47

this guy's potential to have a life, but it

7:50

certainly starts with him not spending

7:52

the rest of that life in a jail cell.

8:04

The problem we've encountered, UM

8:07

with Heat's case is the parole

8:09

board, and many just even just people

8:11

that encounter the case wonder why would

8:13

he attack and kill you know, his

8:16

immediate family rather than his abuser.

8:19

And in the twenty five plus years

8:21

or in the five years or so

8:23

since this happened, I mean juvenile

8:26

that our understanding of the juvenile brain, neuropsycho

8:29

psychology in general, UM

8:32

has has come leap leaps

8:34

and bounds, and so we know that a serially

8:36

abused child has brain damage

8:39

from really about the time

8:41

that that starts happening. And so in Heats

8:44

crazy world, and

8:46

we do have this in our clemency application.

8:48

We've had UM

8:51

abuse specialists evaluate Heath

8:53

and see how he you

8:55

know, his actions conformed

8:57

to our current understanding. Within

9:00

the crazy world that he lived in. He

9:02

actually was making dare

9:05

I say, the reasonable decision. So

9:07

Jack had demonstrated numerous times

9:09

over the years he has physical, sexual,

9:12

and and even control over heats life.

9:14

He can end it at any time. He explicitly

9:17

and implicitly threatens the boys all

9:19

the time. He's got weapons everywhere.

9:21

He's a Vietnam veteran. He brings them

9:23

out to his property, shows them how to shoot, shows

9:25

them what he will do to those who

9:28

you know, go against him. UM,

9:30

So, within Heat's world, he actually made

9:33

a somewhat reasonable decision. He uh,

9:36

the bigger threat was was Jack. Um.

9:39

He can't kill Jack, so he has to do

9:41

the thing to appease Jack to avoid the more

9:43

severe abuse. That's oversimplifying

9:46

it, but that's something that I don't

9:48

think we would have been able to conceptualize

9:51

back in the nineties. You had the element

9:53

of there's it's it's mail

9:55

on mail, and we're talking about a very

9:57

small rural community um,

10:00

Central Arkansas, and that element cannot be

10:02

overlooked at all as well. That was

10:05

a huge thing that Jack was counting on to keep

10:07

these boys silent. Um. He explicitly

10:09

told them, if you tell what

10:12

happened to you, they're going to think that you

10:15

are homosexual and a liar.

10:17

So there's just there's

10:20

there's just so many horrible things in

10:23

this case. Jack had decades

10:25

of experience doing this, and unfortunately,

10:27

because of his position in the community, the son

10:29

of a prominent judge, UM,

10:32

the longtime scout master, the

10:34

community's man of the Year multiple

10:37

times, UM, he had access

10:39

to dozens and dozens of boys, in fact,

10:41

entire generations of these of these

10:43

boys in Lono County. Um Heat's

10:46

case is just one of many. Unfortunately,

10:48

it's the most extreme case and it's kind of tests

10:51

the bounds of our mercy. But the

10:53

kid that discovered Jack, while

10:56

he's a hero, ultimately he

10:58

killed himself and he's not the

11:00

only one. So unfortunately, the Stocks

11:02

family are not the only people who lost

11:05

their lives and not the only people whose

11:07

lives, just like he's, were completely destroyed

11:10

by Jack Walls. Yeah, and this

11:12

is this is an important thing to understand

11:15

because when we're talking about kind of the

11:17

lingering impacts of childhood sexual

11:19

abuse, it can take a wide variety of forms

11:21

and when we like but

11:23

but it but it is important to understand that the damage

11:26

it can do goes so much further

11:28

beyond like the physical damage done

11:31

by the abuse, like these are your

11:33

your brain is still forming and growing

11:35

when you're that young, and he this

11:38

is one manifestation of kind of

11:40

what can happen UM at the more

11:42

extreme end, admittedly, um

11:44

as as the result like this is why it's such a

11:46

heinous crime to abuse a child in this

11:48

way. And it's just I don't know,

11:51

like you're right, it is it It tests

11:53

the limit of UM people's

11:55

capacity for I don't know, forgiveness

11:57

seems like the wrong word, but like Clemens,

12:00

see, you know, this again is a pretty

12:02

heinous crime. Um.

12:04

But at the same time, I can't bring myself

12:06

to think that what

12:09

he endured leading up to this

12:12

shouldn't have an impact on what happens

12:14

to him afterwards, right like it does.

12:16

It does reduce his his complicity

12:18

in this, And I just feel it feels so wrong

12:21

to say that, like, well, he

12:23

should spend the rest of his life behind

12:27

bars, Like that's just not I can't

12:29

imagine anything could help,

12:31

Like I can't imagine that could help in any way.

12:33

Um, just writing this this person off

12:36

forever. I don't know. It just is, it's it's

12:39

fucked. What are the next steps for y'all,

12:41

for your for the defense team.

12:43

So at this point, we've already filed

12:46

a petition with the

12:48

Arkansas governor requesting a commutation.

12:51

That's not a pardon, that's not something

12:53

saying say that Heath is innocent. We're asking

12:56

the governor to modify his sentences

12:58

to a term of years. Forty year is in each

13:00

case to be served concurrently,

13:02

So in effect, one single

13:05

sentence of forty years. Uh.

13:09

Well, in Arkansas, you're actually at

13:11

the time he was convicted, he'd be parle eligible

13:13

at se So that's twenty eight years.

13:16

That's not a guarantee of parole, that is just what

13:18

it means, parole eligibility. So that's what

13:20

we've asked for. Um, we think his

13:22

institutional record speaks for itself,

13:24

and if and when he is a candidate for parole,

13:27

he hopefully will

13:29

make parole. He's he's done everything

13:31

within his power UM to do so.

13:34

UM. If this fails, it's right now.

13:37

Uh. We in Arkansas at first

13:39

goes to the parole board, who makes a

13:41

non binding recommendation to the governor.

13:43

They have recommended that the governor deny

13:46

it. UM, which is unfortunate,

13:48

but again it's not binding. UM. The

13:50

governor now has I believe until

13:53

February or March of two

13:55

to issue his decision. UM.

13:58

He has not yet. UM. We have

14:01

requested a sit down with the governor.

14:03

I don't know if we'll actually sit down with Governor

14:05

Asa Hutchinson. We will sit down with his criminal

14:07

justice coordinator. UM.

14:09

We're thankful and lucky to have the support

14:12

of all of the remaining

14:14

victims family members. So both

14:17

sides of Heat's family. UM,

14:19

you know we have we have extensive support. UM.

14:22

It wasn't they they

14:25

A lot of them had to work to get to this point,

14:27

a lot of them had to understand the true impact

14:29

of the abuse. But at this point, we

14:32

have extensive support from both sides of his

14:34

family. UM. As

14:36

far as we know, there

14:38

are no objections to his commutation

14:41

application from from victims family

14:44

members. The only ones that there have been

14:46

are from the sentencing judge or

14:48

from the sentencing court. It's actually not the same judge

14:50

and the sentencing or the prosecutor from

14:53

that from that county, again a different person,

14:55

um, but they felt the need to object

14:59

it. Should this fail, we

15:01

will seek additional post conviction

15:03

remedies um uh.

15:05

In Arkansas, we have something called a petition

15:07

for writ of ericorum nobis um.

15:10

You can file it. You have to ask the

15:12

Supreme Court, Hey, is it okay if I file a

15:14

petition back in the trial court asking them

15:16

to consider something that, if we

15:18

had known back in ninety

15:20

eight, would have affected the outcome of

15:23

the litigation. In this case, we would

15:25

point to the we we've

15:27

had heath evaluated. UM. It will

15:29

point to that neuropsychological evaluation

15:32

UM as as new evidence. UM. We couldn't

15:35

fully make a connection

15:38

at the time between his abuse and

15:40

the offense to answer that question why he

15:44

killed his family rather than his abuser. We

15:46

now can, and so that's

15:48

what we're going to allege, is that is that new evidence

15:51

UM. Whether the court will

15:53

will find that it is remains to

15:55

be seen. When Heath tried this on his own about

15:58

five years ago, the court denied it. He

16:00

alleged the new evidence was the

16:03

fact of the long term sexual abuse

16:05

of him by Jack Walls, and the court in a in

16:07

an opinion that really does not

16:10

um you know, shows shows

16:12

the lack of understanding of long term juvenile

16:15

sexual abuse, found that well

16:17

though you personally were aware of all

16:19

of that in your own mind because it had happened

16:21

to you, So that was not new evidence. And

16:23

I mean, we know that the average male

16:27

who makes this sort of disclosure, it occurs

16:29

deep into adulthood. So

16:32

it's just at every level of the

16:35

system. Even today, we're still

16:37

feeling the effects of kind of that old

16:40

school mentality about about

16:42

this, and it's unfortunate. We

16:54

could talk about kind of the

16:56

the car serile state and this idea that like

17:00

penalty is the way to respond to

17:02

any kind of crime. But even if you believe that,

17:05

even if you believe that, like you have

17:07

to punish people with

17:09

incarceration when they commit crimes.

17:12

He's done twenty five years, Like

17:14

that's no

17:16

one. No one is discussing the possibility

17:18

of Heath not being punished for the murder,

17:20

you know, because it's he has been not

17:23

just with time behind bars, but the fact that

17:25

his family has gone. The idea that the

17:27

state could do anything that's

17:29

worse to him than than the

17:31

scout Master did, to be honest, is kind

17:34

of absurd in my head. But UM,

17:37

where is there anything that, like,

17:40

I don't know, I'm trying to determine,

17:42

like what can be done to help in this situation?

17:45

Is there any way people can actually

17:47

help outside of like you and the team that's that's

17:49

working to try and sit down with the governor?

17:54

Yeah? Um, I mean public

17:56

support is is wonderful.

17:58

The more people that are out the

18:00

problems in Heath's case and with his sentences

18:03

and that are reaching out to the governor, UM,

18:06

the better we think our chances are.

18:08

UM. I apologize, I don't have the

18:11

email address on me, but the governor has several

18:13

publicly accessible UM

18:15

accounts, as does his criminal justice

18:18

coordinator. Even just getting on

18:20

Facebook UM and and bringing

18:22

it up. UM, there's a Facebook account

18:24

managed by one of Heath's friends. I'm

18:27

in Florida called at Hope for heat

18:29

Stocks. UM. It's a there's

18:31

also a website. I think it's

18:33

Hope for heat stocks dot info. It's

18:35

probably the most extensive trove of

18:37

resources in this case. It has almost

18:39

all original documents. It's where I still

18:42

go to access things when

18:44

I need them, even though you know, I am

18:46

his attorney. So there's a lot

18:48

out there. There's a lot of ways to support the

18:50

cause, even just telling

18:52

other people about it. Um. We

18:54

do have a documentary

18:57

in the works. UM.

19:00

I actually don't

19:03

think it has a producer at this point, but we're hopeful

19:05

to have something out in early to

19:08

make fith, to make Jack, to

19:10

make this case more of a household name. UM.

19:13

The hopes that you know, if any

19:15

sort of um,

19:17

you know, if there's more support out there, more pressure

19:20

on the governor, it will increase

19:22

the odds that that will do the right thing here. Yeah,

19:25

I mean, this shouldn't be a political

19:27

issue. There shouldn't be a left or right thing.

19:29

Like everyone should be able to see this

19:32

is uh, this is the result of abuse,

19:35

and that should have an impact on

19:38

the what we actually what's actually

19:41

what our society actually does to this kid

19:43

in the wake of the crime. Perhaps

19:45

it's like foolish to hope for some sort of

19:47

rationality as

19:50

regards a case like this, But I would

19:52

hope that we could be rational

19:54

about this and everyone agree, yes,

19:58

this kid deserves some the more

20:01

than what he's gotten. UM. I don't

20:03

know. It's it's a bleak one

20:05

though. That's

20:08

putting it lightly. New York recently

20:10

recently passed a law that kind of acknowledged

20:13

kind of where you're at with it for victims

20:15

of domestic or sexual abuse who

20:18

then committed crimes um

20:20

that weren't necessarily during

20:22

the course of that specific abuse UM.

20:25

And it allowed people like Heath to apply

20:28

for resentencing if they met certain statutory

20:30

qualifications um for

20:32

things that mitigated their crime didn't

20:35

justify it, but that didn't come

20:37

out originally. Unfortunately, in Arkansas,

20:39

we don't have a similar process. The only thing

20:41

we have available is this clemency commutation

20:44

process. And unfortunately, as you said,

20:46

it should be a political but it's not. It's it's

20:48

explicitly political. The parole

20:50

board are all appointees by our governor. The

20:53

governor is an elected official. There's a

20:55

reason we filed it in the last year of

20:57

his last term in Arkansas. He has term

20:59

limited, so we're trying to get him at a point

21:01

where he's as free from

21:04

the politics to do what he actually

21:06

thinks is correct. But to think that politics

21:08

will be removed is I mean,

21:11

yeah, it never is. No,

21:13

this is this is the United States inies,

21:17

you know, politics is is a factor

21:19

here, and there's a deeply divisive

21:22

case in the state and especially in

21:24

Lono County. Well, it's

21:26

hard I can imagine it being hard to talk with

21:28

people about just because again, the nature

21:30

of the crime is is horrific. And so if

21:32

you talk about like, well, we we think this

21:34

guy should have another chance at

21:36

life, and you're like, well, but he killed three

21:38

people, he killed his sister, and yes,

21:41

that is the case, but that's not the only

21:44

thing going down here. And you

21:46

just have to I think, if you're if

21:48

you're at all, even if you're not coming at

21:50

this from kind of politically where I am in

21:52

regarding you know, the car

21:55

serial state, you have to acknowledge that,

21:57

like, this is not a race

21:59

Heath's ribes, but Keith's cribes were

22:01

also the result of not just the scout

22:03

master's abuse, but of a number of failures

22:06

on a on a wide level in our society

22:08

that allowed that abuse to occur.

22:10

Um and so I don't know. I

22:13

I feel like there's a lot of reasons

22:16

why it behooves us to give

22:18

this kid another chance. I don't know. That doesn't make it

22:20

easier to convince anyone else,

22:23

But yeah, well,

22:25

how would this case play out if it happened

22:27

today versus in even

22:31

in a more rural part of Arkansas. I think

22:33

our understanding of several of the issues here

22:36

it is so has

22:38

come so far that my hope

22:40

is Heath would have received a term of years

22:42

rather than being charged with capital

22:45

murder. They originally we're seeking

22:47

the death penalty, and he made a deal for multiple

22:49

life sentences, both as someone under twenty

22:51

one and as a victim of long term

22:54

sexual abuse. I would like to think that

22:56

if this happened today, even in that county,

22:59

what we're asking for is something close to

23:01

what what would what would happen?

23:04

I hope, I would hope

23:06

so that That's why, again

23:08

we didn't ask for a pardon. We didn't ask let

23:11

him out today. We said let him earn it, let

23:13

him still feel the weight of of

23:15

what he has done, but give him that light at

23:17

the end of the tunnel, because you know,

23:20

there is no one in the Arkansas Department

23:22

of Correction. Even with

23:25

the there's just not a victim like him

23:28

there, and there's not someone who who could be an advocate

23:30

for victims like him were

23:32

he to be released. So yep,

23:36

well, all right, Michael, is there anything else you wanted to

23:38

get into with this or any

23:41

other ways people might be able to help? Check

23:43

out the website again, post

23:46

on social media. Um.

23:49

Uh. The one thing I think we didn't focus

23:51

on here is Heath himself. Um.

23:53

Heath is a deeply spiritual individual.

23:56

He's someone who lives with this on his conscious

23:58

almost every moment of the day.

24:01

This is not not someone who

24:03

you know, feels he's skated by by avoiding

24:06

the death penalty. Um. This is

24:08

someone who has had to learn about trauma,

24:10

mostly on his own, because with those life

24:12

sentences, he is ineligible for so

24:14

many of the programs of the scant

24:17

programs and resources that we have in the

24:19

Department of Correction because they don't give it to

24:21

people who don't have parole dates.

24:23

So he's had to do a lot of

24:25

this on his own. He's come a remarkable

24:27

way. He's still someone that needs um

24:30

probably extensive treatment

24:33

and therapy to deal with his own trauma

24:35

as well as to deal with the

24:37

effects of what he did on himself. Um.

24:40

But he's a remarkable individual. He's

24:43

a great self advocate. I wish you could speak

24:45

with him as well. Um. He's someone

24:47

I'm proud to represent. Not just that I

24:49

do because I get paid. Um, this

24:51

is why I got into the practice of law.

24:54

Is this type of case. Um,

24:56

he is not innocent, but he is

24:58

not. Uh, he should

25:01

not be bearing the full weight of what

25:03

occurred. While you know, Jack is

25:05

serving a life sentence. I think he should have one

25:07

or two or three more for his role

25:09

in this. I mean heats youth and

25:12

heats brain damage. Because of that, sexual

25:14

abuse should have and now should be considered.

25:17

And we just hope the governor will Yeah,

25:20

yeah, hopefully so. And again if you want to learn

25:22

more, there's Heath stocks dot info. Um.

25:25

There's a lot of good about Jack Walls on

25:28

there as well. UM, and you can

25:30

there's a link to make a donation to

25:33

Heath's defense. Um.

25:35

All right, well, Michael, thank you so much for coming on

25:37

today. UM, and I hope you have a good rest

25:39

of your week. Now that's well, it

25:45

could happen. Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

25:48

For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit

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