0:00

Koji, tell us about the time you went on a trip.

0:03

I can't say. Why are you making me a pilgrimage?

0:07

I practice pilgrimage, That's good.

0:10

Koji, tell us about the time you went on a pilgrimage.

0:13

I remember the first time I went on a pilgrimage was probably right when I started working at the Japanese American National Museum.

0:20

So sometime pretty late in my 20s or in my 20s, I should say.

0:24

And I remember thinking, you know, like I've studied the camps, I've studied all this experiences, and I read all the books.

0:31

But it wasn't until I really went on my first Manzanar pilgrimage did I truly understand what what it was like.

0:37

It was hot. It was then it got really cold and windy and it was dusty, and all I could think was, I just want to go to my car and go home.

0:43

What time of the year did you go? It was April.

0:45

April? Yeah. So same regular pilgrimage time.

0:48

And I just remember thinking, like, I get what was the tragedy?

0:52

You know, my family had to stay kind of.

0:55

They couldn't leave. They couldn't get a car and leave.

0:57

And so it really hit home for the first time. But you went recently, went to Manzanar.

1:01

Why don't you tell us a little bit about that? Oh my gosh. So I went because I can't go with the group.

1:06

And, um, it took three hours and three minutes.

1:10

It's. That's pretty fast. It's pretty.

1:12

You're driving fast. I was driving fast and I was thinking like, oh my gosh, you know, was it 80 years ago?

1:20

Yeah. 1941, 1942. Yeah. And the car wasn't going that fast.

1:25

So it must have taken forever to get there.

1:29

Or trains. Or trains. I, I didn't see any train track.

1:33

Uh, maybe. Buses. In the buses. Yeah.

1:35

You know, there are so many spots before Manzanar for camp and they said it has to be like a certain size land with the water supply close by.

1:47

I saw some lakes and rivers.

1:50

I'm like, that's. So that was like, I don't know, far.

1:54

And what did you think when you got out there? Oh my gosh, it's sad and beautiful.

1:59

You see the backdrop of the mountains.

2:02

It's beautiful but sad and windy and dusty.

2:12

Welcome, welcome, welcome to episode number three of the Japanese America Podcast.

2:17

My name is Michelle, and I'm one of your hosts.

2:20

And I'm Koji and I'm the other host.

2:22

Koji. How have you been? I've been good. Busy.

2:24

Really busy. Um, just a lot of writing projects.

2:28

And the museum had the annual dinner last night, which you were at, and I was writing that and working on that and just doing a lot of projects.

2:35

What about you? How how are you? How was the. Gala?

2:37

The gala? Oh my gosh, it was so beautiful.

2:41

So beautiful. Oh, the beautiful people were there.

2:44

And I get to be one of the beautiful people. You are one of the beautiful people. You totally one of them.

2:49

And, uh, we got to raise a lot of money.

2:51

Good. That's the best thing. It allows us to do the podcast.

2:54

All right, so this is where we look at all things Japanese American.

2:56

We'll bring alive the history, culture, and people that make up this diverse community.

3:00

In this episode, we will be looking at the first Manzanar pilgrimage.

3:04

First, let's give a little background.

3:07

The first pilgrimage was in 1969, with about 150 people from multiple generations, making the 220 mile trek from Los Angeles to Manzanar, a former concentration camp for Japanese Americans during World War Two.

3:23

Every April, people of all different faiths and backgrounds go on this pilgrimage to ensure this terrible part of American history is not forgotten.

3:33

Also, I would be remiss not to mention the fact that in our ongoing exhibition Common Ground Heart of a community, there is a diorama of the Manzanar concentration camp.

3:41

It's based on blueprints of the camp found at the National Archives and period photographs. Michelle, let's talk about Manzanar and the pilgrimage.

3:48

When you went to Manzanar and you walked through the exhibition, did you learn anything that you didn't know before?

3:53

Well, I knew it was there, and I knew they have the barracks and everything, but I.

4:00

I wasn't expecting that.

4:02

It was so much that I. I was so glad that I get to go and learn about Manzanar.

4:09

And now I want to go to nine other concentration camps.

4:13

Yeah. I mean, not all of them are as good as Manzanar, though.

4:16

It's just some of them don't even have anything there. I remember the first time I went with my son, he must have been maybe five years old, six years old. And we've you know, we've talked about the camps all the time.

4:28

We talk about what happened all the time to his family.

4:30

But I remember when we knew it really affected him was when we were watching the video at Manzanar, and he started crying.

4:37

And I remember thinking, okay, we got him.

4:39

We finally, like it finally occurred to him what the tragedy was, because I think he just got old enough to kind of really understand how terrible it was for the Japanese-Americans that were there.

4:49

And I think that it's just different when you go like, if you go to the death camps in Europe, you know, I've never been and I really want to go.

4:55

But I'm sure, you know, no matter how much reading and studying you could do, it's different. It's just like, here you go, Hiroshima, and you go to the Peace Memorial Museum. It's you can study about Hiroshima, but then when you go, it's completely different. It just you could feel the energy.

5:10

And I think it's the same thing when you go to these camps.

5:12

You could feel the energy. And I can't believe, like 10,000 people live in a one square mile block.

5:19

That's crazy. Huh? I mean, they got all the land.

5:22

I mean, how can it be two mile square?

5:24

Yeah. You're very obsessed with the fact that there's lots of other places, you know, uh.

5:30

That much closer to L.A. Well, you know, I mean, they didn't want the Japanese people there, so, you know, there are stories. I mean, I don't know how much you how much it was in the exhibition, but there are stories of people leaving and then going hiking.

5:43

There's a story of this gentleman who would go hike in the the big mountains here.

5:47

The Sierra Nevada's behind Manzanar. And they would go. He would go fishing and come back with a bunch of fish.

5:51

Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow. I read that there are several gardeners at the camp, so they get to go outside of the camp to collect some plants to replant in a garden.

6:05

Well, the thing was if you're a Japanese American and you left, where were you going to go? It's like you couldn't. I mean, even if you even if it was closer to LA, I mean, it's probably not a great place to be Japanese, American or Japanese during World War two. It's probably not great.

6:18

So, I mean, most likely if they left, they were going to come back at some point anyway, Like some people didn't want to leave because they were so afraid that people will be anti-Japanese.

6:29

Yeah, because people were anti-Japanese. People were people were anti just because they kind of looked like the enemy.

6:35

They thought that they were the enemy. So not great.

6:38

And this is why one of the things we always should mention, and I don't think we've mentioned this yet on this podcast, is that there were Japanese Americans who lived on the east side of the dotted line, who did not go to camp and who stayed outside, and they had a really hard time because they were Japanese living in America.

6:55

And a lot of those people struggled a lot because they just weren't jobs, they weren't opportunities. So they struggled with food and shelter in ways that if you were incarcerated in a camp, at least you were given food and shelter and you know you had no freedom. So that's the.

7:11

That's the trade off. And I know I heard stories from Japanese Americans that lived in Colorado during the war, and they would actually help the Japanese Americans living in Amachi. But they were, you know, they were free, but they were not really free, but they were giving. So they were like, but they felt a need to help the Japanese Americans in the camp.

7:27

So it's kind of this weird, weird thing.

7:29

Yeah. At the camp, I guess after a little while, you get to move out if you promise to move away from the West Coast.

7:40

Yeah. So it was that, uh, you had to first.

7:43

You had to say yes, yes to a loyalty questionnaire, which we'll talk about in a future episode. And then you had to have somebody that sponsored you and you had to move away from the West Coast.

7:50

So that's why there's a lot of Japanese Americans in Chicago, Seabrook, New Jersey, um, a lot of the Nisei or second generation, they ended up going to colleges on the, you know, like Quaker colleges, like in Minnesota and other places.

8:02

So, yeah, there were opportunities. But for some people, they didn't they weren't able to leave.

8:07

Yeah, I saw I got a map. So behind the scenes Michelle has like a like 50 brochures that she stole from the Manzanar, the Manzanar Museum.

8:19

No, the the, um. The lady at the front, she's like, do you want some, you know, brochures?

8:25

I'm like, yeah, sure. And she's like, oh, you know, we have 14 different ones.

8:29

Which one would you like? I'm like, can I have them all?

8:32

She's like, you better read them. And I did.

8:35

Wow. There's I think there's more than 14 here just behind the scenes.

8:41

That's too bad. I can't show it to everybody.

8:43

But hold on. There's a map of all the Japanese people.

8:48

How many people lived in each area?

8:50

Yeah During the like, before the war.

8:53

And there's only one person in Mississippi like.

8:58

All right. Filmmaker and head of the Japanese American National Museum, Watase Media Arts Center, Tadashi Nakamura made an amazing documentary called The Pilgrimage.

9:06

We will use excerpts from the documentary. We'll include a link in our show notes if you want to see the whole thing.

9:11

Koji, should we get started? Yes, absolutely. Let's get started.

9:14

One of the interesting things I sometimes forget is that following World War Two, people didn't talk about what happened.

9:19

In this clip, activists Warren Fatani talks about how he didn't know what camp was in.

9:24

Every family gathering and every meeting of a stranger that was Japanese-American.

9:29

It always became some kind of reference point, and so it just couldn't help but be something that that begged to be asked, what is this camp experience about?

9:39

What is it? Not only did they not talk about it, they didn't want to talk about it.

9:44

Here, Warren talks about the reaction of some Nisei when they ask about camp.

9:49

A lot of the Nisei were so angry.

9:52

Why are you digging up this old story?

9:55

It's better left buried.

9:57

I kept wondering if it wasn't that important and people didn't want to look at it.

10:03

Then why are they getting so mad at me when I brought it up?

10:06

But this was around the civil rights, antiwar, and Asian American studies movements. Warren and other Sansei third generation started to explore their identity, Just like people no longer were Negroes and started to become black.

10:17

I felt the same challenge that I needed to define what I was, rather than live up to someone else's definition.

10:24

The collision of sensei's third generation Japanese Americans, including Warren Furutani, decided to go on a pilgrimage to remember what happened, but also to take control of their own identity.

10:37

Things were starting all over the country simultaneously, and we figure we got to march somewhere. We just got to march somewhere, but we don't know where to march to.

10:47

It's got to have some symbolic political essence to it.

10:52

But what about this camp thing that we keep hearing about?

10:56

Why don't we march to one of the camps in the camp we here is the closest we're going to march to Manzanar.

11:02

So we drove up there and we're going toward the Sierra Nevada mountains on a clear autumn day. And it's just magnificent.

11:11

One thing to remember is that Manzanar today is very different from Manzanar back then.

11:15

Back then, there wasn't much there. Today, there's a beautiful museum run by the National Park Service, and they recreated barracks, a mess hall, and a women's latrine.

11:22

But back then, there was only a white monument in the camp cemetery with Japanese writing on it.

11:27

We were walking around and just trying to visualize and wondering and thinking.

11:32

And about 100 yards out we come onto this dump.

11:35

Warren was asked about the importance of the pilgrimage, and he said this.

11:40

What Manzanar is about is looking at what took place and why Japanese were putting camp, was why a lot of things were happening then and even happening today.

11:50

Michelle, let's talk about the importance of the pilgrimage to Japanese Americans.

11:53

One thing I did want to say was, you know, I couldn't find records of this because let me just say this. I'm not always sure what I hear.

12:00

And what I remember is actually reality.

12:03

So I couldn't put this in the script. But, uh, there's stories about how when Warren and the other Sansei first went to the pilgrimage, they couldn't find the camp.

12:12

Oh, And so they were actually on the other side.

12:14

Farmer somebody came and said, what are you guys looking for? And they said about this camp.

12:17

And then they said, oh, it's on the other side of the highway.

12:20

And then they went on the other side and they found it. I don't know if that's true, but it sounds like a great story.

12:24

So I want it to be true. I think. I think it is true.

12:27

I just can't find documentation that it actually happened.

12:30

But you know, what do you think is the kind of importance of this pilgrimage?

12:33

I really gosh, this, you know, this this whole thing was terrible.

12:37

And we have to not forget about it.

12:41

And I don't because I'm a shin-issei I don't have any ancestors went to ancestors.

12:49

Sounds like long, long time ago, but I don't have any relatives.

12:53

Went to the camp. But seeing all those pictures saying we hate Japanese and like go home Jap.

13:01

And two thirds of the people are American citizens.

13:05

Yeah, And they still had to go to that camp and.

13:08

Well, and the one third that weren't American citizens, they couldn't become American citizens. So even if they wanted to, they couldn't because you couldn't become a naturalized citizen until 1951 unless you were a Caucasian.

13:18

So that's why even the number of two thirds being American citizens is kind of a is a weird stat, because I think more of them would have been American had they been allowed to. So that's kind of interesting.

13:30

But I love I love hearing that because, you know, as a as a person whose family was incarcerated, it's really important, I think, for Japanese Americans like myself to remember. And I tell my son this all the time, it's not for us to feel bad about what happened, or it's not for us to get angry about what happened.

13:47

I mean, it's a long time ago, but it's to make sure it doesn't happen again.

13:50

And I'm, you know, reasonably confident that we're not going to go to war with Japan any time soon. But it could happen to other people like, you know, Muslim Americans or Chinese Americans or not.

14:00

Sorry, not we're not going to war with Chinese Americans, but like China or, you know, a muslim Arab country.

14:05

And so I feel like it's our responsibility to speak out when it happens to other people, and that we should be the first people that always make sure that, you know, that people come to their defense. I mean, I don't know if you know this.

14:18

There was only one national group of Americans that spoke out in support of Japanese Americans. It was the Quakers.

14:23

And I think that that's a shame. I would hope that the Japanese Americans, because of what happened, would be that group that spoke out in support of something like this, where it ever happened.

14:32

So the pilgrimage to me represents a yearly reminder that we as Japanese Americans, need to not just look at ourselves, but look at America and make sure it doesn't happen again.

14:43

Yeah. I mean, I guess back then it was easy.

14:46

Like America used to be more white country and it was easy to point out the enemies.

14:52

Nowadays we are more diverse country, but still we kind of look at different people.

15:00

I didn't say prejudice, but like prejudge mental.

15:03

It's it's racism. Yeah, okay.

15:06

I'm racist. It's racist. Yeah. But like you have like judgment against other people and sometimes you use that mind to, I don't know like shift that way.

15:17

That shouldn't happen. When you guys went to Manzanar, was there anything that you learned walking around?

15:23

Did you see them? You saw the white monument. I saw the yeah, I saw the monument.

15:26

But I got to tour inside of the museum, the exhibit, and we got to watch the movies and all those names and are so many people lived there and.

15:40

Did you go with your family? Okay, I, I have a daughter.

15:43

She's half white, half Japanese.

15:46

Yes. Hapa. And I didn't tell her where we are going.

15:50

You just three hours. Yeah. I just kidnapped her and take her to, you know, took her to Manzanar like a real Japanese experience.

15:59

Yeah. And what did she say? She couldn't talk because I think she was so sad that this happened in America.

16:07

Did she? Did she knew about the experiences.

16:10

Ish. I don't think she knew much.

16:13

Okay. And so she's got all kind of information.

16:17

And she was sad and happy to know the information because now she could tell other people.

16:25

Yeah, I mean, even happas were incarcerated.

16:28

Yes. There was a whole, uh, the, uh, the orphanage had a lot of hapa because people were abandoning their children.

16:34

Yeah. There's a whole Children's Village area at Manzanar, and they had a they had a video like, how do you call it, like a home video home.

16:45

Yeah, Yeah. Home videos. And they put together.

16:48

But I'm, I'm kind of a skeptical person, I guess, because you can't believe everything you see on the home video from 80 years ago, because they might be all dressed up and be, you know, smiling for the camera.

17:01

But those kids were like on the slides and look so happy, I don't know.

17:07

And then I also saw a mess hall and I read.

17:12

At the family. You have to eat with the family.

17:15

But at the mess hall, after a while, you get to just hang out with the kids and have so much fun. And they make mochi for the special occasions.

17:24

But they eat the mochi. They took it outside and threw it like a snowball fight.

17:31

It's actually really it's really great that you saw.

17:33

I mean, you're skeptical of the video because there's actually this wonderful story. When I used to work at the museum full time, there was an Ansel Adams exhibition of that.

17:40

He took pictures of the camp and all the pictures. You know, they're all smiling and happy.

17:44

And I remember, uh, it before it came to the Japanese American National Museum.

17:48

It was in Honolulu and in Honolulu, all the people there were crying when they looked at the pictures because they weren't in camp.

17:55

And so for them, it was very sad to look at.

17:58

And so I was talking to the curator at the other museum and they were saying, oh, make sure you have Kleenex boxes and all these things around there.

18:05

And then we brought it here, and all the docents and the volunteers who were actually in camp, they were like, oh, that's not true.

18:11

That wouldn't. And they're just walking around saying everything was not real.

18:14

And so it was none of them cried because for them it was like, yeah, all the pictures were smiling. I mean, a famous photographer comes and wants to take your picture.

18:22

You're going to dress up nicely, you're going to put on a smiley face, you know, you're going to set up a shot.

18:27

And also I found that like Japanese people who were in a camp, they really try to make most out of the situations.

18:37

And they built like a little garden area right next to the barracks, And there's a baseball field.

18:43

Basketball. And there were dances and socials.

18:46

And I remember the Yuri Kochiyama, uh, episode, first episode in her diary.

18:51

There was a dance and there were clubs, and there was all these things, and that wasn't even the real camp. That was like the, you know, that was the camp before the camp, right? That was at Santa Anita.

18:59

So, I mean, when I talk about the Japanese American experience to people in the camp, I talk about a community that was trying to make the best of a bad situation.

19:07

But people mistake that as like, oh, they weren't it wasn't a bad situation.

19:10

I was like, no, they tried to make the best of it, but it wasn't great.

19:14

It wasn't always baseball. There was a lot of things that were bad and bad things happened there.

19:18

And and most of all, they lost their freedom. They lost their possessions.

19:22

They lost their, you know, constitutional rights, which is which is not fair.

19:25

Yeah. And also the Issei people felt really bad for the Nisei their kids, because the reason why there are kids were at the camp is because maybe because it's Issei.

19:38

The Japanese, being Japanese, got automatically got their kids to go to the camp.

19:43

Yeah. And I was thinking about that. I brought my daughter there, but if that happened right now, I would have had my American born kids to go to the camp with me, all because of me.

19:57

This is why it's crazy. These stories are crazy.

19:59

Well, what do you think about healing? Do you think that the the camp, the pilgrimage, do you think that there's healing there?

20:05

Yeah, I think so. That um, so they had lrecho.

20:09

Yes. And I don't know, like the word ire.

20:12

Really is like a big word.

20:14

It just. What does it mean? Wow. Like ire. So le.

20:18

is like a ghost or spirit.

20:20

Yeah. And E is console.

20:22

So consoling the dead spirit.

20:25

And I hope by visiting them we could console the spirit that perished there.

20:31

Yeah. But, ah, I'm, I'm.

20:36

Gosh, you know, I'm. I'm so sorry that happened to those people.

20:40

Well, you know, my father was in camp. He never really understood what happened.

20:44

And, you know, one of the things, one of the reasons I wanted to work here, one of the reasons I've spent a lot of time researching is for him, for him to understand, like why and what and where.

20:55

Because all those things he didn't know. Because he was young. For my father, it felt like there was a there was something in his past that was, um, that was kind of weighing on him and he never understood it.

21:05

And so I remember making a promise to him when I like, when I was a kid, that I would find that out. I'll find out what happened and why it happened.

21:11

And and so I still remember that we actually came to this museum when I was young with him before he died. And I remember thinking, like, I need to figure out what happened, I didn't know. Is there anything else you wanted to say?

21:21

I wanted to say something, but I can't remember what it was.

21:23

Senior moment. Senior. Yeah, senior.

21:25

I'm like, look out, my readers.

21:28

Do you know how do you say readers in Japanese? Logan, Logan, low old gun vision or vision glasses.

21:37

I have I. Got I had to get by bifocal.

21:39

Yeah, that makes me really. Bifocal I. Everything.

21:44

If you don't know the Japanese word, you just have to say it slowly with the vowel at the end. baseball hato.

21:56

The next pilgrimage to Manzanar will be on April 27th.

21:59

If we have time, we highly recommend you go.

22:02

There are buses that leave from Gardena in downtown L.A.

22:05

more information will be in our show notes.

22:15

Every episode. We need to do something fun.

22:17

What kind of bento would you pack for a pilgrimage? Oh, gosh.

22:21

It needs to be rice balls, onigiri with umeboshi in it, the pickled plum, because it might go spoiled.

22:30

You know you don't want to. You don't want to put something that might not be good by the time, like after three hours in the hot weather are spoiled.

22:39

Yeah. Did you hear that? Like at the Manzanar?

22:43

More. More problem in illness.

22:46

More problem was in diarrhea.

22:49

Oh, really, I didn't know that. Yeah, From the food. From the food. Or it was easily spread like, um, hard to get people to wash hands or.

22:58

Yeah. And the bathroom, there is no partitions for a while.

23:02

Yeah. Like you might be. I don't know, you might be getting splashes from the neighbors.

23:07

I don't know I don't know. Yeah. That's that's pretty terrible.

23:11

That's. Now I was actually thinking about onigiri with, uh, umboshi in it, but maybe I was also maybe natto.

23:19

Uh, natto may not be good because it's already kind of like I love natto, but it's always it's already kind of spoiled.

23:32

But if you start, you know, if. Well, I don't think they had Ziploc bag, but if you started to make natto when you leave LA in a Ziploc bag, by the time you get to Manzanar, it might be a natto.

23:47

Um, I told my my son that the only true Japanese people eat natto.

23:52

So that's when he started eating it. Oh, Because that was like, he wouldn't he didn't like, like, look.

23:56

No, like Otani eats natto.

23:58

Yeah. I was like, oh, if You're Japanese, you have to eat natto.

24:01

And he's like, oh, I guess I have to eat natto. Then he started eating.

24:05

Natto is really yummy. Um, so at the mess hall at Manzanar, they had a schedule of what they do.

24:12

Like they get up at 3 a.m. and collect chicken, you know, chicken eggs and stuff.

24:17

And then I got 4 a.m.. They start tofu every day to make tofu.

24:22

Yeah, they make tofu. I didn't know that.

24:24

Wow. Like I should start making tofu.

24:29

It'd probably be really good. Yeah like real tofu tastes so much better than the stuff.

24:34

Fake tofu. Well, not fake, but the stuff that you buy at stores.

24:37

Oh, you mean the one in a little vacuum pack?

24:40

Yeah. Or ones you. Just because there used to be a place around here that you could buy, like tofu.

24:45

Like fresh tofu. It's so good. It tastes like. Almost like you're not even.

24:48

It's like a cream or something, right?

24:50

It was so good. Not like the harder.

24:53

Yeah. Stuff that you buy at markets. Well, is there anything else in the bento that you would want to bring?

24:57

Oh I like shake salmon grilled salmon.

25:01

But do I get do I have a luxury of buying salmon for the bento.

25:07

Yeah I mean that would be good.

25:09

I also like Kinpira gobo.

25:12

That would last. Well, you know, a lot of the stuff from Osechi would probably last.

25:16

All that stuff like. Oh, yeah. Kuri kinton.

25:21

Um, and how do you call those kombu?

25:23

Not something I don't know. Everything in Osechi is supposed to bring you luck.

25:28

Yeah. Yeah, but also. They're supposed to last, right?

25:31

Because during, um, oshogatsu.

25:34

Everything's closed. Yeah. So it could last.

25:36

Um, the housewife didn't want to cook for the next three days.

25:40

That's why they finished cooking on the December 31st.

25:43

Yeah, and then you would. And then so that all that stuff would be okay in the bento box, I think. Well, if you're going to go with the bento box today, what would you bring?

25:50

Uh, can I make Katsu sando?

25:53

Yeah, you can make anything. That's what you would bring.

25:57

Yeah. That's what I want to eat right now.

26:03

What would you bring? I don't know, I'd probably, you know, I would go to, uh, marukai or nijiya and get a bento box. It's just easier.

26:13

Some salmon and kimpra gobo and rice and a croquette stuff.

26:18

I'll just get that because it's easy. It's like. It's like $7 or something.

26:22

Not the not the marbled fudong.

26:24

No, because you have to heat that up. Yeah. And also it might get like all mixed.

26:28

Yeah. Yeah. Bento box is just easier.

26:39

Thank you Tadashi Nakamura and Ethno communications for letting us use your clips.

26:44

Please watch the whole documentary.

26:46

It's only 25 minutes and well worth your time.

26:50

Once again, a link to the full film is on our show notes.

26:53

And thank you all for listening. There are almost 3 million podcasts.

26:56

We're honored you've chosen ours to listen to. This podcast is a program of the Japanese American National Museum.

27:01

The museum's mission is to promote understanding and appreciation of America's ethnic and cultural diversity by sharing the Japanese American experience.

27:08

Be sure to join us next month when we are going to talk about Koji's grandpa and his abnormal World War II incarceration.