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Monday night. It's another open forum. Time

8:45

to have fun. You

8:49

know we don't get a lot

8:51

of opportunities to set up

8:53

formal debates and

8:56

it seems like nowadays they're fewer

8:58

and fewer of those. For many reasons

9:00

I think we've

9:02

had a good run over here and I think

9:05

a lot of people really

9:07

aren't interested in a formal debate. It looks like

9:10

what's going on is that most people do

9:13

quote debates online to

9:16

get a few 30-second clips. So

9:19

they're really just kind of relying on the entire debate

9:23

for what appears to

9:25

be an own or a 30-second clip, a

9:27

one-minute clip and

9:31

I don't know to me that's just a waste of

9:34

everyone's time and attention

9:36

and energy. Debates ought

9:38

to be about the subjects

9:40

at hand and you know that's why

9:42

we can't really even have debates. We

9:45

can't have nice things anymore like debate.

9:49

Everything is fake and gray now so really

9:52

the best we can hope for is kind of entertaining

9:55

you know

9:59

open forums that's really really about all

10:01

we can do over here. And

10:04

that's okay. We've already got

10:06

some people piling in. For

10:08

those that are interested,

10:13

the link is right here. If

10:15

you wanna call in, you can call in right here.

10:19

If you're on YouTube watching and you want

10:21

to ask a question, you

10:23

wanna make an argument, you wanna

10:26

present something challenging, you're welcome to do

10:28

that within reason. And

10:33

now I think Elijah called me out. This

10:36

was joking, so it's not like a

10:39

hardcore call out because

10:42

we were making jokes back and forth. But I did

10:44

invite Elijah if he wants to come on. I

10:48

don't know if he's Orthodox or former

10:51

Protestant or looking into Catholicism

10:53

or where he's at. But

10:58

he's welcome to hop on if he wants to. I sent

11:00

him the link if he wants to join us. I don't

11:02

know if he will. I

11:05

know he's in Australia, so

11:07

he might, shit,

11:10

I don't know, it might be three days into the

11:12

future the way that

11:14

time zones work over there. I mean,

11:17

it might be Easter over there,

11:19

2027, who knows? I

11:22

don't even know. But

11:26

we're gonna open it up. Couple

11:29

things that we

11:31

want to stress. Today's topic is

11:36

Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam. I

11:39

did add atheism up there in the title, but I

11:43

really like to focus on

11:45

Catholics, Protestants, and Islam.

11:48

I'm just not really in the mood to

11:50

also field everybody's tag

11:53

questions. And we've

11:55

done so many tag open

11:58

forums, so many tag debates. that

12:03

I'm looking really to focus on these other topics

12:05

so I don't know people already

12:08

dropping off did you you sat here waiting okay

12:10

so I guess he had a tag question so

12:14

people just want to talk about tag nobody

12:16

wants to come defend their

12:19

position so where's

12:22

all the Protestant and Catholic debaters you know

12:24

it's been so long since we had a

12:27

Protestant that really actually came in

12:29

and defended their position and

12:34

you know I put out again today

12:37

that there's an open opportunity if any

12:39

Roman Catholics want to debate the history

12:41

of the geopolitics of the papacy I

12:43

really want to see this debated I

12:45

said any Protestants want to come on

12:47

debate Protestant many Catholics want to come

12:49

on and debate the geopolitics of the

12:52

papacy nobody has

12:54

ever debated that it's to my knowledge it's fascinating

12:57

to me that to be

12:59

such an ancient geopolitical structure

13:01

the papacy

13:03

that is that we haven't

13:06

really found any Roman Catholics who want to debate

13:08

that it's

13:10

always the debate about the

13:12

quote minds that supposedly prove

13:15

papal infallibility that's really about

13:17

90 to 95 percent of what Roman Catholic apologists

13:22

to do and what they debate and

13:24

it seems to me that they

13:27

should also branch out and want to cover other

13:30

accounts I mean my account of the papacy

13:32

is that it grew into a

13:36

geopolitical power and

13:38

became kind of a servant

13:40

to money power to you know

13:46

to the lust for

13:48

worldly power that

13:51

explains a lot of things in history very

13:53

well it explains a lot of the recent

13:55

papal decisions and moves so

13:58

that would be my account of

14:01

the trajectory of the papacy and

14:04

that has a lot of explanatory power. So

14:10

when are we gonna get a competent

14:12

Roman Catholic geopolitical analyst who can address

14:14

those things? They never even talk about

14:16

it and I don't mean

14:19

does Taylor Marshall address infiltration. It's

14:21

not what I'm talking about. Every tradcat believes the

14:23

papacy was infiltrated

14:27

and subverted you know whatever but I'm

14:30

talking about more specific things about the

14:33

history of the relationship between the

14:35

Rothschild family for example and the Papal

14:37

Bank, the

14:40

Papal Treasury, history of

14:42

operation gladiou, the CIA's connection to the

14:44

papacy, various

14:46

meetings between Kissinger and

14:49

Paul VI, the long history

14:51

of CIA operations in Rome, the

14:55

back door deals that were made in

14:57

relationship to P2 Lodge, all of that

14:59

all well documented in numerous historical texts.

15:02

That has a lot to do with what's going on

15:04

in the Roman Catholic world in the papacy and

15:06

I don't hear this ever addressed. I'm

15:08

talking about those things. I'm not talking about

15:11

do are there tradcats that believe that

15:13

the Roman Catholic Church was subverted

15:17

by Masons

15:19

or something.

15:23

To date I had never seen a Roman

15:25

Catholic debate that topic and

15:29

that to me makes a lot more sense. Now this

15:32

seemed to get a rise out

15:34

of people today. This zesty little

15:36

sassy boy here doing

15:38

his little praise and worship diddy which

15:42

I thought was funny and

15:45

my first joke was I sent that to Tristan

15:47

and I said you need to calm down when

15:49

you're at liturgy dude. Nobody cares

15:51

about your liturgical dance. That was my

15:54

joke to Tristan and

15:56

then Elijah Shafer thought it would be funny to say

15:59

here's James. at church which is still kind of funny

16:01

so we were thinking on the same line

16:05

of thought but

16:09

I countered by telling him that

16:11

he attends pastor Randy balls this church

16:14

right here this is where he goes

16:16

to church he'd be

16:18

going to church right here where

16:21

they got monster truck rallies they got blockbuster

16:23

videos they got it

16:26

all over at ease church

16:30

they also got Korean

16:32

mega church men they got a

16:36

water slide baptism that slides you into

16:38

the sanctuary right here we've

16:42

all seen musket anyway hopefully

16:46

he's still awake and

16:49

he can pop up in here and set a

16:51

straight he can give them arguments the

16:53

way it works is you request to speak

16:55

the allowed

17:00

topics tonight are not

17:03

conspiratorial I don't care about your conspiracy

17:05

theories we're

17:07

talking about the history

17:10

of the Roman Church we're talking about geopolitics

17:12

we're talking about Protestantism

17:14

Bible alone soul scriptura if

17:18

you that's your position you want to defend that you

17:20

want to defend justification by faith alone you want to

17:22

defend all those Protestant norms

17:24

then feel free to call in you

17:26

can have the microphone you make whatever

17:28

arguments you want the call-in

17:30

is via Twitter or X there's

17:33

the link in the chat so you

17:35

got a pop up in here you hit request

17:37

to speak you can come on and

17:41

where I'm gonna favor everyone who disagrees if

17:43

you disagree you go to the line we

17:46

are going to favor the topics

17:48

of Catholicism Protestantism and

17:53

Islam not

17:56

really look at her atheist tonight we've done

17:58

a million atheist Collins so Those

18:02

are the preferred topics and I'm

18:04

going to go ahead and open it up. I

18:07

got all the books around. We can go

18:09

into the texts, into the literature if

18:14

we need to. At least I

18:16

have some of the texts here. I should say I

18:18

don't have everything here. And

18:21

we've already got some super chats. Appreciate that rolling

18:23

in here. Anonymous for

18:25

$100 says, this is

18:27

for you and Jamie's recent streams. Thank you very

18:29

much. Well, thank you so much anonymous. That's a

18:31

big fat super chat. Appreciate that. Jacob

18:34

Major is $5. Jay, I heard that you

18:36

talk about the Frankish papacy preparing

18:39

for the enlightenment. I don't understand this connection. Can

18:41

you help me understand? Yeah, there's a book that

18:44

covers this. I'm

18:53

not a huge fan of this website, but they do have a

18:55

lot of good articles over here. I'm

18:58

trying to remember this guy's name. It's a good. And

19:01

I can never this never remember this Greek

19:05

guy's name, but it's actually admitted in pretty

19:07

much all of the here it is.

19:13

It's not the book by Father

19:16

Romanides. It's the

19:20

book about. Who

19:23

and what is a Byzantine now this isn't it. Frank's

19:36

Roman's feudalism. No, that's not it. It's

19:41

a Greek dude who wrote a book. About

19:44

the history of business in

19:46

empire. Anyway, it doesn't matter. You can just read.

19:52

Like Sushinsky's book. He talks

19:54

about the Franks, the

19:56

Carolinians. And

19:59

if you search around on this. website you can find the book

20:01

I'm talking about. Oh it

20:04

says track contents. Here we go. We

20:07

can find it this way. No

20:15

it's not. It's not any of

20:17

these. Oh

20:35

maybe it's this one. Oh

20:38

that's not it. Maybe

20:43

it's this.

20:45

This website takes forever.

20:47

Anyway, I don't know. We've shared this

20:49

a million times and now I can't

20:52

find it. And this website doesn't want

20:54

to work. Anyway,

21:04

a long story short is yeah, this is

21:06

basic history, right? All

21:13

right, let's see. We're gonna go to the first

21:15

call here. Let's

21:26

see. I think. Well,

21:30

I don't know who was waiting the longest, but who me

21:32

is first. So we'll go to who me. Yes,

21:44

unmute. Hey

21:48

Jay. Yes, sir. My name

21:51

is Chris and I actually got to speak

21:53

in a similar kind of open forum with

21:55

Ian not too long ago. Oh. And I

21:57

got that's how I kind of ran into

21:59

you. when he was talking about the

22:03

Roman debate with Christianity. And

22:06

I kinda came in and talked about why

22:09

it was a sacrifice and kinda explained some of

22:11

that. Oh, you were on that space? Are you

22:13

Orthodox, you Protestant? I can't remember. I'm Protestant, I'm

22:16

Protestant. And I actually

22:18

volunteered when you kinda put a tweet out saying, hey,

22:20

is there any Protestant that want a debate? I'll be

22:22

like, I'll be your Protestant punching bag, I'm fine with

22:24

that. But

22:27

I was just wondering, so in

22:29

that debate, there was obviously, there

22:32

were great points and then there were people kind of going

22:35

back and forth with Ian. And

22:38

he made a couple comments in

22:40

there about Protestant, like bad Protestant

22:42

logic and a lot of those kinds

22:44

of things. So for

22:46

people that are new, like me, to who

22:50

you are and a lot of things you can

22:52

kind of believe, is there a way you can

22:55

kinda introduce me to some of

22:57

the broader strokes that you think Protestants

23:00

encompasses and where it fails and where it falls

23:03

apart just in a quick

23:05

summary, or is that a bad place to start? No,

23:08

it's not a bad place. But now I

23:11

remembered that the thing I'm looking

23:13

for is on a different, oh

23:15

my gosh, it's on this website.

23:17

And now I'm trying to find, if

23:20

I'm trying to find something that gets totally distracted and

23:23

then I'm like. It's just like me, I got the

23:25

ADD. Yeah,

23:27

it's not the thing that you linked.

23:29

It's an online book by a Greek

23:31

writer who wrote a history of the

23:35

Franks and the, oh,

23:37

okay. And it's only online, you

23:40

can't find it. Oh, so it's

23:42

not. It's on this website. No, it's not.

23:45

It's like a really long Greek name, but it's

23:47

really good if I can

23:49

just find it here. Oh,

23:56

wait, maybe I'll link it here. This is

23:58

the, yeah, so it's not. and I

24:00

did a whole talk. This talk is

24:02

about that question to the guy who

24:04

asked on the super chat. His name

24:06

was Jacob Majors. So here's the talk.

24:08

Is the papers he subverted by the

24:10

Franks? And here it is.

24:14

It's... Here's

24:17

the book. I knew I had Anastasios

24:20

Philippides. Romonta or

24:22

Barbera is the book that you want

24:24

to read. Although unfortunately this book is

24:26

only online. It is

24:28

accessible here. Now this point is

24:30

also brought up in

24:33

most of the scholarly works

24:35

now that treat of this period of

24:38

the Carolinians. So Sashinsky

24:40

mentions that in

24:42

his Filiokwe book it's probably also in the

24:45

Papacy and the Orthodox book.

24:48

I can't remember if Mayendorf and Papadakis mention it

24:51

or not. They may or may not mention it.

24:53

I can't remember. Now that

24:55

I don't think they do because that book begins in 1054. So

24:57

it's not in

24:59

that book but pretty

25:01

sure it's in the Sashinsky

25:03

book. Anything

25:15

that's covering the Frankish period nowadays typically

25:17

we'll talk about that and

25:20

how different things were at

25:22

that time in the

25:24

east and the west. And in fact it wasn't even

25:27

the Papacy that was really subverting things yet. In fact

25:29

the Papacy was on our side and

25:31

it was the Carolinians for example that denied

25:34

the Seventh-day Communical Council. So

25:41

go back to our questioner here.

25:44

And your question was the basics. So I'm in the

25:46

Orthodox Church. The idea is

25:49

different from Protestantism that we believe we

25:51

don't believe in the solas that many

25:53

Protestants do. No sola scriptura, no sola

25:55

fide. We believe

25:58

in a sacramental realism where the

26:00

sacraments really do convey the grace

26:02

that they signify. We believe in

26:06

a church governance that's hierarchical and

26:08

synodal. So there's apostolic succession and

26:10

there's councils and synods that govern

26:12

the church. There

26:14

is a good place

26:17

for tradition. All

26:19

of those things play a role in

26:21

how we view Christianity. So

26:23

we don't go Bible alone. Those

26:26

are the kind of the main essential

26:28

elements or the storyologies

26:30

different. So, terminology is different. Well,

26:33

I mentioned, I said that we don't believe in

26:35

Solar V Day. So

26:40

those are the basics. Gotcha.

26:46

So is there something specific

26:48

that you want to debate?

26:51

Now, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not

26:53

exactly qualified, right? I'm just a volunteer.

26:57

Also, if you show me

26:59

pictures like that guy dancing,

27:01

I'll be like, yeah, maybe

27:04

drawing attention to yourself and

27:08

portraying yourself as a specific kind of

27:12

sexual orientation as an attention

27:14

breast and worship. That

27:18

doesn't seem very Christian to me

27:20

in that aspect. So is there

27:22

something specific you wanna ask a

27:24

Protestant, especially one who might not

27:26

be fully researched, but

27:31

willing to at least take a stand for it? Well, I don't

27:33

think, yeah. So people don't

27:36

have to debate on here. You can if you want

27:38

to. It's just the way we do it

27:40

around here is there's always an open

27:42

forum for people to debate if they want to, but

27:44

they could also ask questions. So if you feel more

27:46

comfortable asking questions, you're more than welcome to do that

27:48

too. But I

27:51

mean, again, I think if we were to

27:53

pick two doctrines that

27:56

Protestantism typically or historically has kind

27:58

of grounded itself on. It's

28:00

the idea that ultimately salvation is

28:02

through faith in Christ alone or

28:04

justification by faith alone and

28:07

the idea that the ultimate guide for the

28:09

church is just the Bible alone or the

28:12

Final Authority is the Bible alone or however Protestants

28:15

want to say that and you

28:17

know the Orthodox Church the Orthodox position would

28:19

disagree from the outset with those two

28:22

ideas and we would say that Salvation

28:25

is by grace, but it's something that

28:27

begins at the point

28:29

of First yes first

28:31

believing and then repenting being baptized

28:33

being received into the church Then

28:36

there's a process of salvation, which is

28:38

working out your salvation with your entrimbling

28:41

Becoming holy as Paul talks about and then for us

28:44

Salvation is ultimately theosis or deification

28:47

which is to participate in

28:49

the uncreated energies of God And

28:52

it's not merely a legal standing which

28:54

you know your disposition God's disposition changes

28:56

based on your legal standing That's kind

28:58

of an essential element of justification by

29:00

faith alone so we would pretty much

29:02

disagree with all of that and You

29:06

know pretty much the only thing maybe

29:08

that we have in common with Protestants at that in

29:11

terms of the essentials is I mean We don't even

29:13

think the Protestants have the doctrine of the Trinity correct

29:16

I guess the only thing we really agree on might be

29:18

just the deity of Christ But

29:20

beyond that there's not I mean, I know a

29:22

lot of Protestants I guess confess the virgin birth

29:26

So there's not a whole lot of

29:28

areas of actually have overlap Yeah,

29:30

okay. So yeah, I think that we

29:33

have definitely common ground on the deity of

29:35

Christ and the virgin birth But

29:38

as far as the you know saying

29:41

that the Bible is the only authority

29:44

I I'm definitely one

29:46

of those people who is fully

29:48

in in that camp I

29:53

Am probably gonna end up if I'm

29:55

gonna formulate good questions I might just kind of sit

29:57

back as more of a listener and propose questions then

30:00

If that's gonna be better, I'd like

30:02

to grab a few things. Is,

30:04

in your mind, the

30:07

Bible, let's say if I were to pick verses

30:10

out of the Bible and ask about

30:12

them in this conversation, is

30:14

that something that we can agree

30:16

on as at least where truth

30:18

resides? Or is that something? Yeah,

30:20

we would say, I think, yeah,

30:22

we affirm the Bible is inspired

30:24

by the Holy Spirit. It is

30:26

divine revelation from the person

30:28

of the logos. I don't

30:30

believe the Bible contains errors, so

30:33

I think we might agree there. Yeah,

30:35

no, I understand on the God-breathed

30:38

inspiration of

30:41

the Holy Scripture and that

30:44

God preserves it through time as

30:46

like His Word will never fade

30:49

away. Yeah, one difference there is

30:51

that we would say that the Bible isn't

30:53

strictly speaking the Word. There's a sense in

30:55

which you can speak of it that way,

30:57

but the Word of God is a person,

31:00

not a book. It's the second person of

31:02

the Godhead who is the Word of God.

31:04

And Jesus Himself in the Gospel of John

31:06

says, you search the Scriptures because you think

31:09

that it's in them that you have eternal

31:11

life when it's they that bear witness of

31:13

me. So me being the divine person of

31:15

Christ, the second person of Godhead, the Bible

31:17

being kind of a letter or a book that

31:20

attests to Him, that doesn't mean

31:22

that the Bible is degraded or that it

31:24

doesn't have inspiration or authority. But it's kind

31:26

of like if you write a letter describing

31:28

me, that's different than knowing

31:31

me in a relational way. So for

31:33

us, it's the same analogy there to

31:35

distinguish between. Can I point out one

31:38

of the same two? That

31:40

it will be different between Protestants and

31:42

Orthodox. The

31:45

level of esteem and kind

31:47

of ranking of the Scriptures is

31:51

also different. Whereas I remember as

31:53

a Protestant, you just, it's

31:56

all the Scripture, it's all at the same level. certainly

32:00

a level of dignity

32:02

and ranking among the

32:04

scriptures within Orthodoxy where the Gospels

32:06

take the highest of the epistles

32:10

than the Psalms and the Old Testament readings

32:12

and stuff like that. I'm

32:15

familiar with that hierarchy that's definitely

32:17

something that I experienced so I

32:19

was born and

32:21

into a Lutheran Church and so... Okay

32:23

yeah and you experience... I was Lutheran

32:26

too so yeah. So

32:29

you know Gospels, you stood for the reading of

32:31

any gospel even though and then the Psalms

32:33

and the other elements didn't have

32:35

the same level of respect you

32:38

know as part of the tradition I

32:40

guess is the best way to state

32:42

it. Right now I'm attending a

32:44

church that obviously it's not

32:46

Lutheran due to the fact

32:49

that Lutheran Church started voting on Bible

32:51

things and so my family was like

32:53

you know we probably shouldn't vote on

32:55

whether the Bible's right or not because

32:57

that's not how that works we don't we

32:59

don't vote on the Bible. Was that the EOCA?

33:03

I believe so yeah. So it happened when

33:05

I was in like middle school and things

33:07

like that so you know like the

33:10

specific details in which which

33:12

part of Lutheran Church I was in is

33:15

lost to me having to go back

33:17

and Google so. And the

33:19

other thing you probably won't have a problem as

33:21

a Lutheran is iconography

33:27

because in Lutheran churches there's

33:29

like in many of the churches iconography

33:32

which is very different than the kind of

33:34

Reformed and Calvinists which

33:37

would be iconoclast. So just

33:40

to suss that I'm just bringing that up

33:42

just to make a distinction that

33:45

many many Protestants are iconoclast

33:47

but not all. Anglicans,

33:50

Lutherans actually

33:54

don't know about the Methodists. They're

33:57

so divided they might might

33:59

be both. I don't know. But

34:02

just to make those distinctions, Jay, if you wanna follow

34:05

up on that. No, those are good points. I

34:07

mean, so did you wanna continue

34:09

discussing, did you wanna step back and formulate

34:11

some questions? I don't think you're- Yeah, I

34:13

don't wanna take up other people's time if

34:16

people are asking to be part of this.

34:18

And I'm doing, I've just

34:20

got, in order for me to

34:22

formulate good questions, I'm trying to understand

34:24

the landscape. Sure, yeah. Whatever you wanna

34:26

do, Scott. Yeah, just trying

34:28

to understand. So when

34:31

you talk about the iconography, right? We're

34:33

talking about a historical version

34:35

of what I used to, what I

34:37

used to participate in. Can you give

34:40

me an example of how the iconography

34:42

would exist in Lutheranism? Well, Lutherans typically

34:44

don't have a problem with crucifixes and

34:47

imagery. Oh, okay. And

34:49

so the Orthodox Church has icons everywhere,

34:51

so. Mm-hmm, gotcha.

34:53

And so I

34:56

can't imagine why crucifixes

34:59

would be problematic. Like, I've

35:01

heard- Well, the reformers didn't

35:03

like that kind of

35:05

stuff. So a lot of the

35:07

classical reformers who were Calvinists, you

35:10

know, they typically were iconoclastic, meaning that

35:12

they didn't like any created

35:14

visual imagery of Christ or the

35:17

apostles. Now, they weren't okay with

35:19

crosses, but they didn't like crucifixes

35:21

or icons of saints and so

35:23

forth. Gotcha,

35:25

I got into a debate under

35:27

one of Seamus's, the

35:29

Freedom Tunes guy. One

35:32

of his comments about Catholicism today,

35:34

and I started learning a whole

35:36

lot about like, okay, do they

35:38

actually believe, you know, in the

35:40

fallacy of the Pope?

35:44

Do they worship Mary? And

35:46

I learned about the three types of worship and

35:48

things like that that we're talking about. And so

35:50

that was kind of interesting to delve into because,

35:54

you know, in a lot of cases, you just get

35:56

told, oh, the Catholics worship Mary. And

35:59

you go, okay, that's bad. because that's not

36:01

allowed. And so when I see

36:03

something like the image of the

36:05

Virgin Mary with candles in front of that,

36:08

I go, oh, they're idol-worshipping, but understanding it

36:11

at a different... No, I mean, the Orthodox... Yeah,

36:13

we kind of have a similar position

36:15

to Catholics on that point that we

36:17

do believe in the intercession of the

36:20

saints, that the saints pray for us,

36:22

and it's not inappropriate to

36:24

ask them to pray. And that's essentially

36:26

what we're doing when we quote, pray

36:28

to saints. They're not gods or goddesses,

36:31

but they do enter seed for us. And

36:34

so that's part of the doctrine of the communion of

36:36

saints. And of course, the queen of the saints is

36:38

Mary. We don't believe in all the Roman Catholic

36:40

doctrines of immaculate conception and all that, but

36:43

we do think that she is the... you

36:45

know, Spalla's Virgin, she's the queen of heaven,

36:47

etc. So when you say, just

36:51

to expand, because I'd like to ask

36:53

a question, when you say you don't

36:55

believe in the immaculate conception of

36:59

Mary or of Jesus? Right. So

37:01

immaculate conception is a specific Marian dogma in

37:03

the Roman Catholic Church. It's not about Christ.

37:06

Christ is Virgin. That's

37:08

the Virgin bird, yes. Immaculate

37:10

conception is a Roman Catholic

37:12

papal doctrine where the Pope

37:15

declared Mary to be also preserved. Preserved

37:17

from original sin through a

37:20

specific unique miracle. Roman Catholics

37:22

believe that because of their

37:24

doctrine of... well, their classic...

37:26

I'll say the classic Latin

37:28

doctrine of original sin from

37:30

the Augustinian period. That's really

37:32

what influences their belief in

37:35

the need for the immaculate

37:37

conception. We have a little bit

37:39

of a different idea of what ancestral sin

37:41

is versus original sin. So in

37:43

the Orthodox conception, there's really no need for

37:45

the doctrine of the immaculate conception. Yeah,

37:48

and I... okay. So we're

37:51

talking... we're exploring a lot of the spaces where

37:53

we agree, right? Like, I don't believe in the

37:55

immaculate conception of Mary either, and I don't think

37:57

a lot of Protestants really... No. that

38:00

no it's as unique to rum

38:02

catalysis I'm dogmatized not

38:06

that long ago okay

38:09

I'll do a few pieces

38:11

of research and if I come up with a

38:14

cool question okay sure yeah you can pop in

38:16

pop sure pop in anytime you want to that's

38:18

fine next

38:22

in line was trillist wizard

38:24

what's up trillist how you doing hey

38:33

Jay just a quick one here

38:36

uh-huh if the

38:38

Orthodox believe in

38:40

miracles and exorcisms outside of the

38:42

church but they

38:44

also believe there's no salvation

38:47

outside of the Orthodox Church is that

38:49

not a contradiction no

38:52

because I mean a miracle can happen anywhere

38:55

and miracles attest to the faith but

38:57

they're not proofs of the faith and

38:59

when Jesus talks about the guy and

39:02

mark doing miracles outside

39:04

of the College of the Apostles he says that anyone

39:06

doing a miracle in my name will

39:09

not be apart from us for very long in other

39:11

words eventually he will most likely come to

39:13

be amongst us if he's if he's acting

39:15

in good faith and you also have Jonathan

39:17

John brace doing the first two miracles of

39:20

Moses so miracles themselves signs of wonders would

39:23

not be a contradiction somebody dying and

39:26

being united to the mystical body

39:28

in an extra normative

39:30

way is still not salvation

39:32

outside the church because they're still being united

39:34

to Christ like the

39:37

thief on the cross so there's nobody saved

39:39

outside of Christ is the point so

39:50

so if if

39:52

there's Catholic so you don't believe in any of

39:54

the miracles that the

39:56

Catholics have

39:59

have gone like while they're alive? Well

40:01

again, the guy who's doing

40:04

exorcisms apart from the College of

40:06

the Apostles, right? What

40:08

does Jesus say? Does Jesus say, oh, he's

40:11

cool, everybody can do their own thing. No,

40:13

he says that anybody who does a miracle

40:15

in my name will, I

40:17

think he means most likely, soon be amongst

40:19

us. So that

40:22

tells us that there can be miracles outside

40:24

of the Orthodox Church, God can do those

40:26

things. But what does that have to do

40:28

with salvation outside the Church?

40:30

There is no salvation outside the Church.

40:32

Even Roman Catholics believe that if you're

40:34

saved, quote, outside the Church, it's just

40:37

God uniting you to the mystical body

40:39

in a non-normative way. So that even

40:41

they don't believe in, quote, salvation outside

40:43

the Church. You're just thinking of Church

40:46

in terms of the visible, earthly

40:48

confines, and that's not the extent of the

40:50

mystical body. The mystical body is all the

40:52

believers from the foundation of the world until

40:55

the end of time. I

40:58

was just thinking you would have to have

41:00

salvation to some

41:03

of the miracles the saints have

41:05

done, like

41:08

floating and things like that.

41:10

I feel like you would have to have salvation.

41:12

As an Orthodox person, we don't think any of

41:14

that's necessarily a proof of true religion. I mean,

41:16

a lot of the stuff that goes on in

41:18

the so-called, the so-called miracles of

41:20

the Roman Catholic Church are delusions and demonic.

41:22

I mean, getting

41:24

spiritual orgasms from God, with

41:28

a host flying around and saying that Jesus is your

41:30

boyfriend, I mean, that's a bunch of

41:32

delusion. That's not from God. But

41:36

then it would be

41:38

a whole conspiracy tunnel

41:40

that you'd have to go down if you're an

41:43

Orthodox person, I feel like. It's not a conspiracy

41:45

tunnel if we're identifying delusion.

41:47

I mean, why

41:50

would we think that that's the

41:52

manifestation of true divine worship? I

41:56

mean, doesn't Jesus point this out when he

41:58

says that wicked generations see. signs and

42:00

wonders and yet no sign is given

42:02

to it except the sign of Jonah. So Jesus

42:05

actually says that if you're looking for

42:07

these miracles and signs and wonders you're

42:09

just setting yourself up to be duped

42:11

and to be deceived anyway. Now miracles

42:14

do attend the true faith but

42:16

do you understand that quote miracles or

42:18

claims of miracles cannot be

42:20

the proofs per se because

42:22

every religion out there claims that? I

42:25

mean do you think that... I think there

42:28

was... because I

42:31

haven't seen any miracles personally but when you

42:33

study like our Lady of

42:35

Fatima and the moving

42:37

son and things like that how many witnesses they

42:39

have and how many reports... Okay well hold on

42:41

let's talk about that one. Alright let's use that

42:43

one as an example. So are

42:45

you aware that around that same time that

42:48

was the first major news

42:50

story that was completely faked

42:53

and it was called the Bat People on the Moon? No

42:59

I haven't heard about that. So there

43:01

was a... this is a really famous

43:03

case and I think it's like the

43:05

late 1890s out of Chicago. The most

43:07

famous paper in Chicago like the

43:10

Chicago Sun or Sun Tires and like that. Just

43:12

look up the Bat People on the Moon story

43:14

and it was widely believed and

43:17

why do people believe it?

43:19

Well because a newspaper reported that

43:22

the astronomers and scientists of that time

43:24

had seen Bat People on the Moon.

43:27

Now why would I believe that

43:30

a village of people out in

43:32

Portugal or whoever wherever it is that because

43:36

they saw a manifestation or claim to see it

43:38

I mean for all it could it could have

43:40

been a completely staged news story just like the

43:42

Bat People on the Moon. One of the most

43:44

famous fake news stories of all time. Now I'm

43:47

not saying it is that I don't know but

43:49

my point is that how am I gonna base

43:51

my faith on countless

43:53

conflicting miracle claims which don't even

43:56

make sense and aren't even coherent.

43:58

This can't be the way... way

44:00

that we're supposed to figure out, which is the

44:02

true religion. And in fact, if you go to

44:04

the Gospel of John, when

44:06

Jesus tells the story of the

44:08

guy who's in Hades, and

44:11

he says, Lord, let me out of

44:13

here. If I

44:15

return from the dead, if my

44:17

brothers see me come back from

44:20

the dead, surely they will believe.

44:23

Does Jesus have the attitude, as many

44:25

Roman Catholics do, that this

44:27

sign-and-wonder miracle will convince the

44:30

brothers? Or does Jesus say something else to

44:32

him? Do you know the story I'm talking about? Ryan

44:36

here and I have a question for you.

44:39

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45:39

no. Because the example

45:42

fits this very case. And

45:45

Jesus says, though one rise

45:47

from the dead, they will not

45:49

believe. They have the law

45:51

and the prophets, Moses and the prophets. If

45:53

they won't believe Moses and the prophets, they

45:56

won't believe though one rise from the dead.

46:00

that story alone refutes this whole attitude that

46:02

the way that we know what the true

46:04

faith is is if there's like

46:06

more signs and wonders or more claims of

46:09

signs and wonders. And by the way the

46:12

story of Fatima doesn't even match up to

46:14

what the Roman Catholic Church has claimed. The

46:17

Roman Catholic Church has claimed over and over

46:19

and over that they will eventually fulfill the

46:22

requirements of what Our Lady said at

46:24

Fatima. But if you're in

46:26

the Tragedt world, all the Tragedts

46:28

spend all their time debating the

46:31

fact that the popes haven't actually done

46:33

what Our Lady said to do at

46:35

Fatima. So

46:39

how is that going to be the deciding factor

46:41

when Catholics can't even tell us if Fatima has

46:44

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48:00

miracles within Catholicism and

48:03

Well, hold on. So why am I supposed to believe

48:05

okay? Well if that's what's gonna prove it or disprove

48:07

it like why why Catholicism? Like

48:09

why not other religions that claim I

48:12

mean for example Hindu mystics have much

48:14

longer than Catholic mystics claimed all kinds

48:16

of miracles Does that prove Hinduism? I

48:22

Know Why

48:25

doesn't it though because I mean have you gone

48:27

down the road? Oh, I'll have you gone down

48:29

the rabbit hole and debunked all the all of

48:31

the yogis and Sai Baba and all these people

48:33

in their miracle miracle claims I Mean

48:39

I think the internet will do it

48:41

for me, bro. I reckon a quick

48:43

hashtag one job. He's girl on exit

48:45

probably You must be joking, right?

48:48

That must be a joke There

48:53

could be miracles from here they took

48:55

the miracle from years They

48:57

took the miracle too much theology can

48:59

take one away from God. I'll step

49:01

down now. Anyway, I'm Finished.

49:04

Okay. Well, hey, those are great questions and

49:06

I appreciate it I

49:16

Will see next up was go go load

49:18

go odd Got

49:29

an union You

49:35

So we got a lot of people on YouTube

49:37

talking smack all you guys in the chat here

49:39

talking smack Hey, don't you guys don't have to

49:42

delete his comments? I mean, I appreciate the the

49:45

On-point mod work there, but like let's get

49:47

these guys to call in like instead of

49:50

being keyboard warriors Once

49:53

you guys hop over here on Twitter and call in go

49:56

load. Did you want to talk? What's up, man? We

50:02

can't hear you man, if you want to talk you

50:04

got to turn permissions on or whatever. There's no sound

50:06

from you. Let's

50:10

see, try again. Are

50:13

you there? Got to unmute. Yeah. Sorry

50:16

about that. It's okay. I can hear you.

50:18

What's up? I

50:20

just had a quick question. I see that Orthodox

50:22

is in the plan. I'm not really trying to debate.

50:26

I was just looking for an Orthodox parish. I'm kind of in

50:28

the south. I think the only

50:30

thing we have within like 40 minutes or

50:32

so is a Greek Orthodox. I've

50:35

been there a few times and it seems good, but I'm

50:37

just not trying to get a little fog. I

50:40

don't think most of the Greek churches are

50:42

that way. You just have to

50:44

kind of test them out. Okay. I

50:47

mean, if you look out for like

50:49

you would like, there's also like a

50:52

western right row court church, like almost

50:54

an hour away. Is there like a difference

50:56

between regular row court and

50:59

western? Well,

51:01

yeah, I mean, they're going to be doing the

51:03

their version of the Latin Petrine

51:05

liturgy. So it's not going to be like,

51:08

you know, it's not going to be the liturgy

51:10

that you would see at, you know, like most

51:12

row court churches. So, you

51:16

know, no,

51:20

it's Orthodox churches doing the Latin

51:22

right or the pet train liturgy.

51:25

But I mean, you know, you

51:28

don't have to give away your address or whatever, but I

51:30

mean, yeah, you just check

51:32

them all. I would just check them all

51:34

out and see which is, you know, the

51:37

best fit for you. You'll know after a

51:39

while whether if somebody's liberal or not, they're going

51:41

to they'll they'll they'll

51:45

give it away really quick. I

51:47

appreciate it. Yeah.

51:51

And I don't know about where

51:54

you're in. So I couldn't say, but I mean,

51:56

you should go check them both out. Super essential.

52:10

William Dye says for $10, does Eric Abara

52:12

only go on slow mode talk when he

52:14

talks to you? I don't know.

52:16

I haven't watched enough of his stuff. I

52:19

don't watch Eric Abara. In

52:22

his other discussions, he talks normally and

52:24

talks fast. He

52:26

could have been using some kind of technique

52:28

of filibustering

52:31

and burning out time. I don't know. William

52:33

Dye says he's a new convert. Well, hey, thank you, man.

52:36

I hear that. Cohort, $10. If

52:39

we are all church and Paul

52:41

doesn't want women speaking in church, women

52:44

can never speak. This is a

52:46

checkmate to the invisible church. That's

52:49

a good point. If church is not any

52:51

kind of formal institutional liturgical thing

52:53

and women are not allowed to speak

52:55

in church, then Protestants should never allow

52:57

women to speak. That's

52:59

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apostate, modern something. Got

54:31

to unmute. AJ. Yes,

54:33

sir. So I've been

54:35

looking into Orthodoxy for a little bit and I think I'm

54:38

going to head to Vespers for the first time

54:40

on Wednesday. But I want

54:42

to ask about the penal

54:44

substitution atonement. So

54:47

a few Protestant friends who I was talking about

54:49

or talking with, and they were saying, what does

54:51

the laying on of hands on the animal mean

54:53

is not putting on the sin on the animal?

54:56

And I mean they brought up the Day of Atonement.

54:58

I think it's there. It says explicitly that they're putting

55:00

on the sin on the animal. But

55:02

at the point that the goat is going out. So

55:05

it's symbolic. Sin doesn't have

55:08

substance. It's not a being.

55:10

It's a negation. It's an act of the will against the good.

55:13

So there's no such thing as, quote,

55:16

sin. That's like a thing that you

55:18

transfer. To transfer something means that that

55:20

thing has existence. Sin has

55:22

no existence. Evil doesn't have being. That's because everything that

55:24

you... And by the way, by

55:27

the way, Jay, that's

55:29

a great point. Maybe

55:32

you could talk

55:35

a little bit more about that. One of the

55:37

problems too is that a

55:39

lot of Protestants, even with penal

55:41

substitution atonement, take on

55:43

kind of a mannequin notion of sin.

55:46

They talk about sin nature and give it

55:48

like a positive existence. Anyways, I'm just following

55:50

up on what you're saying. Yeah,

55:52

exactly. I was going to say that to

55:56

attribute being to evil is mannequin.

55:58

So everything that exists... comes

56:01

to be and has existence from God because

56:03

God created everything and said it is good.

56:06

So evil is a privation on

56:08

the good. That means it doesn't

56:11

have actual being. It

56:13

doesn't have any existence. It's not an essence.

56:15

It's not a nature. So there's no such

56:17

thing as a sin nature and there's no

56:19

such thing as literally putting sin like

56:22

some kind of like taint or

56:24

cloak or substance on top of

56:26

the scapegoat. It's

56:28

a symbolic ritual meaning that

56:31

the being will die in another person's

56:33

stead as the

56:35

exacting of the penalty of death.

56:38

And so the analogy to Christ

56:40

is that Christ willfully chooses to

56:43

be our ransom or sacrifice.

56:46

And what that means is not

56:48

that the Father damns him or

56:51

God punishes him, but rather that

56:53

he willingly undergoes death, meaning the

56:55

severance of his human soul from

56:57

his human body. So there's no

57:00

divine to divine punishment or hatred

57:02

or anger going on here. There's

57:04

a willful offering of

57:06

the Son offering the humanity after

57:09

he's undergone that death and then resurrecting

57:11

that humanity. He offers that humanity to

57:13

the triad and that offering

57:15

is of the divine person of the Son giving

57:17

that humanity to the Father in the Holy Spirit.

57:20

So it's a triadic offering of

57:22

the human nature after it's been healed and

57:24

restored after Christ goes into

57:26

Hades, conquers death and resurrects

57:28

and has the power of death. If

57:31

you look at the book of Revelation

57:34

it says that he has the keys of death in Hades.

57:37

And so he now in our nature has

57:39

restored it and healed it, meaning

57:41

that he has power over death. So that's

57:44

the Orthodox conception of Christus Victor so

57:46

to speak and Christ having

57:48

victory over death and that's also the

57:50

meaning and the explanation of the offering

57:53

of the atonement and of

57:55

the ransom and of the guilt

57:59

so to speak. Yeah,

58:01

that makes sense. I was, as a Catholic,

58:03

we have that interpretation, not like we're sin

58:05

as a privation. But when I was reading

58:07

religion of the apostles, I think one

58:10

of the parts about the atonement, Father

58:12

Stephen writes that sin

58:14

does have some ontological sense, how it's treated

58:16

as a disease. So I don't know if

58:18

that's like... Well, it's an

58:20

analogy, right? So diseases exist and

58:23

bacteria, illness, but it's

58:25

still, it's

58:27

an analogy that we make to what evil

58:29

is or to what sin is. Sin

58:32

is, in the church fathers explicitly, only

58:34

a move or an action of the

58:37

will against the good or away from the

58:39

good. That's it. Okay, and then just to follow up, do

58:41

you think his work and then the Lord

58:43

of Spirits podcast is good and some of the other

58:45

stuff that he's on? Right, so our buddies, my friend

58:47

Louis and Kai, they've done interviews on their channel with

58:53

Father Stephen DeYoung. I don't know Father Stephen DeYoung personally. I've

58:55

never talked to him. They

58:58

seem to appreciate the book. I've

59:01

only heard good things, so I don't have

59:03

anything critical or negative to say. So I

59:06

would imagine if they've given it seal of

59:08

approval, it's good. I've

59:10

not listened to Lord of Spirits, so I can't

59:12

speak to that. Okay, sounds

59:14

good. Thank you. Yeah,

59:19

great questions. And if you

59:21

go back, I think to, if you

59:25

go to my eclipse channel, not

59:27

dire eclipse, but the

59:29

other eclipse channel, which

59:32

is live

59:34

streams and absurdities, there's actually

59:37

a video specifically on critiquing

59:43

penal substitution. And

59:47

one of the key elements that's often overlooked

59:49

in how to understand this is

59:51

actually the Byzantine synod from

59:53

the 11th century where they condemn Soterikos.

59:58

And the condemnation of Soterikos, via

1:00:00

the Liturgy actually helps explain why

1:00:03

we don't have the Protestant doctrine of penal substitution.

1:00:05

So if you go over to my Cliffs channel,

1:00:08

it's right

1:00:11

here, it's called penal substitution refuted in

1:00:13

Byzantium. And

1:00:15

the error this video will reference both,

1:00:19

you can talk, you can get the Pomozhonsky

1:00:21

book, there's a section in there about it,

1:00:24

and there's also a chapter on it in

1:00:26

the Papadakis, Mayandorf book, Christian

1:00:30

Church and the Rise of the Papacy,

1:00:36

there's a whole chapter on that, and

1:00:38

that actually refutes the penal substitution view.

1:00:43

Dan Mollitor, what's up man? Yeah,

1:00:53

can you hear

1:00:55

me? Yes sir, what's up? I

1:00:58

was reading Orthodox dogmatic

1:01:00

theology, and it talks

1:01:03

about the... You talk about Stenyloy? One

1:01:07

second, let me see which one it

1:01:09

was. Or Pomozhonsky or Stenyloy? Or

1:01:13

Lawsky? One,

1:01:15

one, wait, wait, wait, it

1:01:18

is... Let

1:01:22

me get to the cover. Pomozhonsky.

1:01:26

Okay. And

1:01:29

it just talks, I mean it's a simple question, I

1:01:31

think it's not a simple answer, but... Okay. It talks

1:01:35

about the sinlessness of Mary. And

1:01:38

so just, is that, from an Orthodox

1:01:40

perspective, is that a necessity? Like that

1:01:43

belief? And if so, why?

1:01:46

I mean, if she

1:01:48

wasn't sinless, therefore what? And so

1:01:50

like, because she is sinless, right? You know what I'm saying?

1:01:53

And you know what I'm asking? Well, I think as

1:01:55

the mother of God, she

1:01:57

is the Theotokos, meaning that she was chosen

1:02:00

to raise our

1:02:02

Lord from his youth, the

1:02:05

idea of her purity would be

1:02:08

partly so that she would fulfill

1:02:11

and be capable for that role.

1:02:13

Now that doesn't mean that like

1:02:15

Jesus didn't know how to act or

1:02:17

something like that, like he had to be spanked or

1:02:19

something, but just that she

1:02:21

would be the pure vessel first of all to

1:02:24

give birth to him and

1:02:26

also that she would be his guardian and

1:02:28

be the one to raise him. And so

1:02:30

that is a unique status amongst all women

1:02:32

in the world. That's why when

1:02:34

you look at the Old Testament you see multiple

1:02:36

women who have Old Testament

1:02:39

miraculous births, Hannah, you

1:02:41

know, Sarah, etc.

1:02:43

They become pictures of

1:02:46

Mary. And so when

1:02:48

Mary comes about she fulfills all

1:02:50

of those roles, all of

1:02:52

those types, she becomes the ultimate

1:02:54

image of what the idea of Israel as the

1:02:57

bride was supposed to be. So she's kind of

1:02:59

like the summation and

1:03:01

the telos of Israel as

1:03:03

the feminine bride to Yahweh.

1:03:05

And so to be

1:03:08

that I think is partly why she

1:03:10

was so graced and

1:03:12

also because in the long term

1:03:15

foreknowledge and designs of

1:03:17

our Lord she would be the

1:03:19

Queen of Heaven. If you read Revelations 12, you

1:03:22

know, she's pictured pretty clearly as Queen

1:03:25

of Heaven, Queen of the

1:03:27

Universe, and that's the reality that she

1:03:29

will have manifested

1:03:31

to the whole universe in the eschaton. So

1:03:33

it's only appropriate that not

1:03:35

only that she be preserved from actual

1:03:37

sin, again by grace, but also that

1:03:39

she be the spotless virgin and the

1:03:41

ever virgin. And as we say

1:03:44

in the liturgy, the ever virgin Mary. And that's

1:03:47

actually typified in certain passages like

1:03:49

Psalm 45 where the Queen

1:03:51

stands next to the king and go to

1:03:53

vote here. That's a Messianic

1:03:55

Psalm that's talking about Jesus and

1:03:57

Mary. Ezekiel 44, the

1:04:00

prince exits through the door of the temple

1:04:02

and the door remains shut. How does a

1:04:04

prince exit the door and the door remains

1:04:06

shut? Well, the prince is the Messiah, the

1:04:09

prince Christ. And that's talking

1:04:11

about him being born from Mary,

1:04:13

the new temple. And

1:04:15

so all of us are temples. Jesus is

1:04:17

the temple, you know, uh, destroy

1:04:20

this temple and in three days I'll raise it again.

1:04:22

He spoke at the temple of his body. John two,

1:04:24

I think, or not, not John two. It's a later

1:04:26

on in John. He's already with the Pharisees. John what?

1:04:28

Eight, nine, somewhere in there.

1:04:31

Uh, maybe it's seven, but

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of the Covenant. Mary has Ark of the Covenant. It

1:05:48

answers a lot of those questions. Thank

1:05:51

you. Yeah, those are good questions.

1:05:54

So that, that video is called. What

1:06:01

is the basis for the veneration of Mary

1:06:03

or Saint Mary? The intercession of

1:06:05

the saints replied to Isabella De Luca is the

1:06:07

name of that video on YouTube. Let's

1:06:15

see who was next. We got a bunch of people

1:06:17

have piled in here. I'm trying to remember who's Zora

1:06:19

I think was next. You

1:06:33

gotta unmute. Yes,

1:06:39

Mary is the second Eve. All of that is in my video

1:06:42

if people want to go watch. I can't repeat it. It's a

1:06:44

40-minute video. I can't repeat all of that. Yeah,

1:06:48

hi Jay. Was that for me, Brian? Was

1:06:51

what? No. The response was to people in the chat

1:06:53

on YouTube asking questions. Go ahead. Oh

1:06:56

no, sorry. I missed the part where you actually let

1:06:59

me in. But thank you. Is it

1:07:01

my turn? Sure. Alright,

1:07:03

first of all, God bless you

1:07:06

man. See Rachel's in the audience,

1:07:08

hey Rachel? I'm a admirer

1:07:11

of your husband's work and yours

1:07:13

as well Jay. Thank

1:07:15

you for all that awesome commentary man.

1:07:17

I come from you. I'm sorry.

1:07:20

I come to you from Alex Jones and

1:07:23

watching your Friday hour and

1:07:26

kind of like the first caller,

1:07:28

Chris, I believe his name was.

1:07:31

I'm kind of gonna lend myself

1:07:34

to be a punchy bag as well because

1:07:36

I don't

1:07:38

disagree completely on

1:07:41

anything but there is a point

1:07:43

of contention I did have with

1:07:45

this the

1:07:47

soul descriptor I hear from how

1:07:53

if it's only based on

1:07:55

scripture I currently

1:07:57

well I come from a Protestant Evangelical

1:08:00

Protestant, but I don't

1:08:03

give myself any name because I

1:08:05

basically call myself a student and

1:08:07

I'm learning The

1:08:10

biggest thing that I've kind of come into

1:08:12

in the past few years is trying to

1:08:14

take the words of the Bible literally wherever

1:08:16

it's asked

1:08:19

to take literally like the Ten

1:08:21

Commandments how it says to follow

1:08:23

this don't do that and a

1:08:27

Great teacher on this was a Rob skeeba

1:08:29

if you're familiar with Rob skeeba he passed

1:08:31

away a few

1:08:34

years ago, but taking

1:08:36

a literal approach opened his eyes to

1:08:40

the Genesis six Giants and

1:08:44

The wars that were fought between them and the

1:08:46

Nephilim and the watcher when they came down

1:08:48

to well Yeah,

1:08:50

I mean people love to get into the

1:08:52

like really, you know Speculative type of stuff

1:08:54

and you know, I have I don't have

1:08:56

a problem talking about that But like that's

1:08:59

like what a couple verses. I mean

1:09:02

majority of the Bible is not about

1:09:04

Nephilim and Giants It's about you

1:09:06

know The New Testament stuff

1:09:08

that we're talking about it's about who's the Messiah.

1:09:10

What is the Trinity? You know what? I mean?

1:09:12

Like that's the majority what's in the Bible. So

1:09:15

I'm not trying to knock you or be rude,

1:09:17

but If

1:09:19

the Bible isn't this thing that

1:09:21

kind of comes to us like in a vacuum

1:09:24

It comes from a historic church that

1:09:26

preserved it handed it down So

1:09:28

you can't really have the Bible without

1:09:31

the community that decided what books go

1:09:33

into it. That's a historical reality It's

1:09:35

a historic community. It's part of a

1:09:37

tradition So the

1:09:39

Bible actually is a liturgical book Most

1:09:41

people are surprised to hear this but

1:09:43

it was meant to be heard in

1:09:46

the context of a worship service It was not

1:09:48

primarily meant to be a personal

1:09:50

devotional book It can be that it

1:09:53

was not primarily meant to be something

1:09:55

that some Protestant orator preaches from and

1:09:57

gives you a bunch of dumb You

1:09:59

Know boomer wife jokes or something that like,

1:10:01

like a lot of pastors do, the set

1:10:04

The purpose of that. It's meant to be

1:10:06

read and heard in a context of liturgical

1:10:08

worship. So. That's.

1:10:10

I think the out the element is missing

1:10:12

here. Paul says the Church of the blog

1:10:14

on a jury not the written tax Jesus

1:10:16

says to the Paris's you search the scriptures

1:10:18

because you think that is and then they

1:10:20

have eternal life from as they the bear

1:10:22

witness of me. Absolutely.

1:10:30

Agree And. Oh

1:10:33

how did you have to agree with that though is

1:10:35

that if you're protestant. Oh.

1:10:37

No, I don't know. Like I said, I'll

1:10:40

give myself many titles of stuff. In

1:10:43

a one hundred percent convinced I

1:10:46

just ah ha una background or

1:10:48

more so I'm looking into the

1:10:50

different interpretations that undertaken especially translations

1:10:52

that on I myself yeah yeah,

1:10:55

roger myself. Any titles, dollar purses?

1:10:57

it'll be worth it was a

1:10:59

thing but I'm I come from

1:11:01

an Armenian. Found would need

1:11:04

my pin. think the some and. The.

1:11:08

Biggest. Questions linger in a my mind.

1:11:10

Is this right here? If

1:11:12

I were to ask you. When

1:11:15

the bible specifically says to not

1:11:18

do something. Is.

1:11:20

That gonna be categorized as he

1:11:23

argument of a source of torah

1:11:25

or is. Else because as

1:11:27

the scripture says to not them something

1:11:30

that technically kind of makes it in

1:11:32

school works. But. Being.

1:11:35

From the Bible. Group.

1:11:37

Sure, is there a delineation or

1:11:39

sanctioned between those two? know

1:11:45

like so scripture is a classical

1:11:47

protestant doctrine that the final authority

1:11:49

that are the sole authority ultimately

1:11:52

for the church is just the

1:11:54

written text in the bible that's

1:11:56

the doctrine of so script her

1:11:59

citing things from the Bible

1:12:01

as beliefs or moral

1:12:03

requirements or whatever is not the doctrine of

1:12:05

the soul of the scripture. Those are two

1:12:07

different things. I mean, we believe that the

1:12:10

Bible teaches all kinds of things of things

1:12:12

you shouldn't do, 10 commandments, etc. But

1:12:14

that's not the soul of the scripture,

1:12:16

no. Soul of the scripture is a

1:12:18

classical reformation doctrine from reformers that

1:12:21

ultimately the church only

1:12:23

listens to the written texts. Gotcha.

1:12:28

Gotcha, brother. There's so many things going

1:12:30

through my mind. More than

1:12:32

anything, I'm thankful you actually let

1:12:34

me speak. Sure. Great

1:12:37

at my ever work, man. Thank you,

1:12:39

Jay. Thank you, Rachel, for being here. Give

1:12:42

your husband a nice drink on my behalf.

1:12:44

Actually, don't. That's probably not too good for

1:12:46

him. God bless.

1:12:48

You have a great evening. Thanks, man. Yeah,

1:12:50

I appreciate that. Good questions. Let's move on

1:12:52

to next up is Hein. What's

1:12:57

on your mind? Hello.

1:13:09

Hi, Jay. Thanks, man. I'm

1:13:11

a big fan of yours, but I'm

1:13:14

a Protestant. And what I usually

1:13:16

do is when I

1:13:18

argue with Muslims or with Mormons, what I would

1:13:21

do is I would tell them, listen, but in

1:13:23

the Bible it says you're not

1:13:25

supposed to add anything to the Word of

1:13:27

God. You're not supposed to add anything. And

1:13:29

then I did a course on basically

1:13:31

early Christianity. And then I realized that that's

1:13:34

exactly what Luther did. I mean, he took,

1:13:36

you know, they took away from the Word

1:13:40

of God. They, they, hold on one second.

1:13:42

So you understand that when John says that

1:13:44

in the apocalypse,

1:13:47

there's not a Bible yet. Do you

1:13:49

understand that? Yeah,

1:13:52

yeah, I do. Yeah. And I think

1:13:54

it's sitting in both motors as well. So, you know,

1:13:56

I suppose you could take it to mean just the

1:13:58

apocalypse or something. Suppose you could

1:14:01

take it to mean just the writings of

1:14:03

Moses But then you know, we all we all

1:14:05

say all the Christians felt in that that one of

1:14:07

that's the case so I think most people

1:14:09

usually take it to mean like

1:14:13

the Christian tradition Right,

1:14:18

so like if you mean by Luther, I

1:14:20

don't know if you mean adding faith alone

1:14:22

Are you talking about Luther removing the deuterocannon?

1:14:25

Removing the deuterocannon Okay

1:14:31

So, yeah, so then I realized okay, so I can't really

1:14:33

use that that you know, it's hypocritical to use that argument

1:14:36

But then I did a

1:14:38

course on ancient Christianity and what they you

1:14:40

know, what they said is like All

1:14:42

the added liturgy was also

1:14:45

added later after the Christianity became the

1:14:47

official religion of the Roman Empire

1:14:53

No, it's totally ridiculous. No Me

1:14:57

as we can read the church fathers talking about

1:14:59

the liturgy early on so like

1:15:02

one of the most famous Controversies is

1:15:05

the quarto desiminarian controversy, which

1:15:07

is a controversy about liturgical

1:15:09

calendars. So how could liturgy

1:15:11

be added? Centuries later

1:15:13

if there's all these controversies we can

1:15:15

go read here an ass Justin

1:15:17

Martyr talking about the liturgy talking about the real

1:15:19

presence. So this is just silly Okay,

1:15:23

today with what I said is when

1:15:25

you know in Constantine guys the Christians

1:15:27

of the silica expanded the liturgy to

1:15:30

setting the figure you read

1:15:32

the statue of the Kentucky my my But

1:15:37

it seems that they've only had two

1:15:39

two sacraments the only a communion and

1:15:42

baptism You know the early

1:15:44

Christians the ones who this is an argument

1:15:46

from silence the fact of the diddic key

1:15:49

Which is not part of Scripture talks about

1:15:51

various traditions. That'd be like saying we

1:15:54

shouldn't have a Bible because the

1:15:57

the first few centuries of the

1:15:59

church the Church Fathers, they don't list the

1:16:01

Canada scripture so we can't have a Bible. So do

1:16:03

you see how that's not a very good argument? Yeah,

1:16:07

yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's actually a

1:16:09

very good, good objection. Yeah. And

1:16:13

the other thing I wanted to, to, to

1:16:16

argue with you about is about Confession

1:16:19

because that was only added in the 12th or 13th

1:16:21

century. In other

1:16:24

words, the early Christians, they didn't, they

1:16:26

didn't, I mean, like you,

1:16:28

you pointed out your, your podcast,

1:16:30

you pointed out that, you know,

1:16:33

the CIA is the Catholic

1:16:36

Church to get information. And since

1:16:38

many, you know, in some countries, majority

1:16:40

Catholic countries, some very powerful

1:16:42

people are, you know, the Catholics, so the

1:16:44

guy can face this, some of it is

1:16:46

dark. It's the priest,

1:16:49

and that gives the, you know, the priest

1:16:51

gives it to the CIA and that gives

1:16:53

the literature of those people. Yeah. So what

1:16:55

would stop, what would stop, you know, the

1:16:58

KGB from doing that with Orthodox priests and

1:17:00

those people? So, so from that point of

1:17:02

view, I don't think, I

1:17:04

think it's very risky to, to, to confess

1:17:06

and that's one of my main

1:17:08

objections to, to moving over to Orthodoxy

1:17:10

or to Catholicism. Or

1:17:13

this idea, sorry. So the abuse

1:17:15

of something doesn't necessarily negate something,

1:17:17

right? A father abuses, being

1:17:19

a father, he abuses his family. That doesn't

1:17:21

mean we get rid of fathers. So the

1:17:23

abuse of something is not necessarily or can't

1:17:25

be the defeater for the existence of that

1:17:27

thing. Everything would be upended

1:17:30

if we went with that kind of argumentation. So

1:17:32

the reason for that is that in the Old

1:17:34

Testament, when you brought your sacrifice, you

1:17:37

were in a way confessing your sin because

1:17:39

depending upon what sin you committed, that was

1:17:41

associated with different animals and different sacrifices. When

1:17:44

John the Baptist is baptizing, it says, and

1:17:46

they came to him confessing their

1:17:48

sins and being baptized. This goes back

1:17:50

to the Old Testament. It's not an

1:17:52

invention of the 12th century. In

1:17:56

the early church, there were different models and different

1:17:58

processes for the how this was done. Sometimes

1:18:00

it was communal confession.

1:18:03

Sometimes it was individual. So there's different

1:18:06

practices. And sometimes the church consolidates

1:18:10

and organizes these principles for

1:18:13

a rock or a rockular confession. But Jesus

1:18:15

says in the at the end of Gospel

1:18:17

of John when he breathed on the apostle,

1:18:19

I think it's John twenty one. He says,

1:18:22

whoever sends you remitted, they're remitted or ever since you

1:18:24

retain, they retain. So breathing on them commits the

1:18:27

transmits the ability to forgive sense. So

1:18:29

how are you going to have that happen

1:18:32

if you don't confess and

1:18:34

have your sins remitted? I

1:18:37

think the process approach

1:18:39

is to go directly to God, you

1:18:42

know, to confess to God. But

1:18:45

did you hear what I said, though? Why

1:18:50

would you why would Jesus breathe on the

1:18:52

apostles and say, whoever sends you

1:18:54

remit, they're remitted ever since you retain, they

1:18:56

retain. If he weren't transmitting an

1:18:58

actual power to do that, why

1:19:00

don't you just say, now everybody can just pray to God.

1:19:02

We don't you don't you don't need me. You don't

1:19:04

need these apostles. There's no

1:19:07

reason to breathe on them and tell them that. So

1:19:12

we have written. I have

1:19:14

to look into that. I

1:19:17

think it's John twenty one. You don't you're not heard of this.

1:19:21

I've written a Bible. I must

1:19:24

have come across it. But

1:19:26

I just have to look a bit more interested. So

1:19:29

you think the post and basically just took it

1:19:31

out. You know, they just they just cut that

1:19:33

out. I practice.

1:19:37

Yeah. OK.

1:19:41

All right. Thanks. I appreciate

1:19:43

it. I was just going to you

1:19:45

know, I wanted to know what you think about these these

1:19:48

objections. Oh,

1:19:51

we just read this the

1:19:54

other day in the liturgy. Maybe

1:20:00

it's 20. Is

1:20:08

it 20? Yeah,

1:20:20

so it's John 20, and

1:20:22

he says it's the

1:20:24

incident where Thomas is

1:20:26

doubting. And

1:20:29

this also speaks to the earlier question about

1:20:31

signs and miracles too, and it says, the

1:20:35

disciples said we have seen the Lord unless I see

1:20:37

his handprints and the nails. Put

1:20:39

my finger in it. I will not believe, Thomas says,

1:20:42

and after eight days, the disciples were gathered. Again, Thomas

1:20:44

came to you and said, with

1:20:47

the doors being shut, peace to

1:20:49

you. And he said,

1:20:51

Thomas, put your finger here, put your hand and

1:20:53

put it in my side. Do not be unbelieving,

1:20:55

but believe. And Thomas

1:20:58

said, my Lord and my God, which proves the Christ.

1:21:01

Thomas, you have seen me and yet you

1:21:04

believe. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed. Oh,

1:21:07

wait, where's the where is he breathing on them? Yeah,

1:21:12

so Jesus said again to them, peace be unto you as

1:21:14

the father sent me, I sent you this

1:21:17

apostolic succession. When

1:21:19

he said this, he breathed on them and said, receive the

1:21:21

spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they

1:21:23

are forgiven. And if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.

1:21:26

So this is part of the office of the keys. So there

1:21:29

you go. John 20.

1:21:31

Okay, thank you. Thank you very

1:21:33

much. I think what I'm

1:21:35

going to do is I'm going to

1:21:37

start my own, my own post and

1:21:39

denomination. Just seeing the two

1:21:42

sacraments and using the Catholic body. That's

1:21:47

funny. Well, now you should also include

1:21:50

the idea that you alone have the

1:21:52

ability to forgive the sins. So you

1:21:54

should say that you alone

1:21:56

possess the power as

1:21:58

well. Milos?

1:22:06

Oregon is not resisting $10. Jay, thank you

1:22:08

for the apologetics. I was a Protestant until

1:22:10

you debated redeem zoomer There we go. Nice

1:22:12

to hear that my wife and

1:22:15

I are becoming catechumens We became catechumens last

1:22:17

Sunday glory God. Hey glad to hear that

1:22:19

organ is not resisting much appreciated

1:22:22

propane 2001 $5. Do

1:22:24

you have any thoughts on

1:22:26

apologetics from hermeneutic consistency?

1:22:30

I'm not sure what you mean against

1:22:32

autonomous systems and obscure

1:22:35

theonimous ones There

1:22:37

is rarely if ever a binding authoritative

1:22:40

body in history Let

1:22:42

alone a providentially guided one to

1:22:44

preserve these doctrines. Well, I mean

1:22:46

we just read right here Whoever sends

1:22:48

you remit or remitted whoever sends you retain their retain.

1:22:51

He hears you hears me. So This

1:22:54

has what what relevance does this have to us

1:22:56

if there's not successors to the Apostles who have

1:22:59

this ability? So what do you mean?

1:23:01

There's no? providential System

1:23:06

to to bind people there

1:23:08

is that's what the church is So

1:23:12

I'm not trying to be rude propane.

1:23:14

I'm just saying like church history answers

1:23:16

your question and the existence of

1:23:20

Overseers in the church in Synod's

1:23:23

and in councils do that very

1:23:25

thing Michelle new day

1:23:27

$25. How do you approach non-believers? I

1:23:31

mean it depends on your station in life

1:23:33

and how you what you do

1:23:35

I mean we approach people typically here via

1:23:38

internet stuff because of a large audience

1:23:41

I don't typically like go out door to door, you

1:23:43

know handing out tracks or something like that. I mean

1:23:46

People can do that you know,

1:23:48

there are people who make Orthodox tracks

1:23:51

nothing wrong with that, but It

1:23:54

really just depends on your station in life who

1:23:56

you are who you're around, you know what you're

1:23:58

doing So, you know,

1:24:02

if you're at work, you approach your

1:24:05

coworkers who are unbelievers in a way

1:24:07

appropriate to being a coworker. You

1:24:10

know, you try to live virtuously, invite

1:24:12

them to church, that kind of stuff.

1:24:15

Not everybody has to debate. Not everybody

1:24:17

has the same skill sets, gifts,

1:24:20

etc. There's all kinds of different ways to

1:24:22

go about doing that. So do it in

1:24:24

a way that's appropriate to you and

1:24:27

your skill set and your station

1:24:29

in life. Some people have the gift of

1:24:31

mercy. So if you have the

1:24:33

gift of mercy, then your job is to be merciful

1:24:35

to people and that will convert people. Don't

1:24:39

try to debate your parents. Don't try to debate your

1:24:41

boss. Don't try to argue with people who have authority

1:24:43

over you. It's a waste of time. It's never going

1:24:45

to work. It doesn't happen that way. Show

1:24:49

deference and respect and live

1:24:51

virtuously and you'll convert way more people. Then

1:24:55

arguing and debating. Now some people have the ability

1:24:57

to argue and debate. Some people have that skill

1:24:59

set. Nothing wrong with

1:25:01

that either. It just depends on you and

1:25:05

your unique situation. What's up Mills? You

1:25:10

got to unmute, man. Mills,

1:25:15

did you want to talk? All

1:25:20

right, we'll move on. Sean,

1:25:22

what's up Sean? I

1:25:28

was hoping Elijah would come in here since he was joking

1:25:32

around on Twitter. Hello?

1:25:35

Yo, what's up man? What's up, hello? Oh,

1:25:38

so I just had a question about, so

1:25:41

I got out of progress. The

1:25:44

question was, why would the people in the process

1:25:46

be saved? Can you

1:25:48

mute the computer, man? Exactly.

1:25:52

Oh yeah, my bad. Yeah.

1:25:57

Go ahead. Yes.

1:26:00

So my parents and friends will always ask

1:26:02

me, okay, well, if you're not saved by

1:26:04

faith alone, why was it the

1:26:06

Orthodox, I'm sorry, why was the people in

1:26:08

the cross saved? Because they repented. So repentance

1:26:10

is a good work. Jesus says, this is

1:26:12

the work of God that you believe in

1:26:14

him whom he has sent. So faith is

1:26:16

also a work. So repenting and

1:26:19

believing are works. Yeah,

1:26:22

but then there'll also be like, a buddy with a bad

1:26:24

wife. Yeah,

1:26:26

but that's an extra normative situation

1:26:28

where he's repenting and he's saved

1:26:30

and he unites it to Christ

1:26:32

without baptism. That's not the norm

1:26:34

for everyone else. So for

1:26:37

the most part, go

1:26:39

ahead, sorry. For the most part, everybody

1:26:41

will be expected to be baptized and

1:26:43

be united in the normative way. So

1:26:45

the fact that there are extra normative

1:26:47

ways has nothing to do with proving

1:26:49

justification by faith alone. Go

1:26:54

ahead, Father Deacon. Okay, well, I was gonna say,

1:26:58

it seems, correct me if I'm wrong, but

1:27:00

this is kind of tendency in Protestantism to

1:27:03

find an exception to the rule and then

1:27:05

make it the rule. Exactly. Which

1:27:08

is very odd to me that, well,

1:27:11

obviously it's an extenuating circumstance.

1:27:14

An exception to the rule and the Protestant say,

1:27:16

well then let's just make it the rule. So

1:27:20

what in your mind, Jay, or

1:27:22

our guest here, Sean, what

1:27:26

causes one to kind of think that way?

1:27:29

That like if you find an extraordinary circumstance

1:27:31

to make a general rule that would apply

1:27:33

to all from? Well, it's

1:27:35

based on the assumption that salvation

1:27:37

is only had through, quote, faith

1:27:39

alone. And so that

1:27:42

would somehow disprove the necessity of

1:27:44

works for baptism. And

1:27:46

it's all wrongheaded because salvation is,

1:27:48

first of all, not based on, quote,

1:27:50

faith alone. And when Paul's

1:27:52

talking about justification by faith apart from works, he's

1:27:54

not saying, he's some of the works of the

1:27:57

law. He's not saying that there's no good works.

1:27:59

In fact, he's... says in Corinthians that the

1:28:01

only faith that saves is faith working through

1:28:03

love. That's Paul. Okay. So

1:28:05

Paul right there is telling you that he's not teaching

1:28:08

the classical Reformation doctrine of

1:28:10

faith alone. So once that's

1:28:12

removed, the point that

1:28:14

Jesus says is that faith is a work.

1:28:17

Therefore the thief on

1:28:19

the cross believing is what's a

1:28:21

good work. His repentance is what's a good work.

1:28:23

And those are the things that unite him to

1:28:25

Christ. And had he had the opportunity, he would

1:28:27

have been baptized. He would not have disobeyed. So,

1:28:31

yeah, there's no, like we believe in

1:28:34

the Orthodox church that there's baptism by

1:28:36

desire. There's baptism of blood, which is

1:28:38

people who are martyred and

1:28:40

they're not yet catechumens who get martyred. They're

1:28:43

considered baptized in their blood. Baptism

1:28:45

of desire. The thief on

1:28:47

the cross has baptism of desire. So he is

1:28:49

baptized. Okay.

1:28:53

That makes sense. And then also I had a

1:28:55

conversation with some like Mormon scholar named Robert Boylan.

1:28:57

I don't know if he's heard of him. I

1:29:00

have not. I've only read Talmage.

1:29:02

That's the only one of the Mormons I've read.

1:29:06

Okay. Well Robert was kind of a modern day scholar

1:29:08

for the Mormon church, but he would, I had a

1:29:10

conversation with him on like Facebook

1:29:12

live or something like that. And he would,

1:29:14

I, he would say that Justin Martyr and

1:29:17

his first apology claim to believe in more than one

1:29:19

God. Well,

1:29:21

the word God, as we pointed out in all

1:29:23

the lectures and interviews with Dr. Beau

1:29:26

Branson is a generic term. It

1:29:29

can refer to angels. It can refer to

1:29:31

demons. It can refer to humans and it

1:29:33

can even pick out different things in the

1:29:35

triad. So it can pick out a divine

1:29:37

person. It can pick out the divine nature.

1:29:39

It can pick out divine energies and operations

1:29:41

and attributes. So there's no single reference to

1:29:43

the word God. And so, uh,

1:29:45

when we say in the creed, for example, we

1:29:48

believe in God from God. God there

1:29:50

is picking out two hypostasis. Right.

1:29:53

So, but does that mean that we're polytheists?

1:29:55

No. However, Mormons are polytheists

1:29:57

and Justin Martyr is not a

1:29:59

polytheist. Related

1:30:02

a procedure as a look up

1:30:04

the Doctor Branson socks on the

1:30:07

monarchy of the Father, and that

1:30:09

would be sufficient to refute the

1:30:11

Mormon notion of a polytheism. The

1:30:15

questions there. Ah Joseph.

1:30:25

Momo A I guess we didn't like.

1:30:27

I'm sure you can also support the

1:30:29

stream via the super chat function. Supertax

1:30:31

are done here on stream labs through

1:30:33

my Abs is the best way here

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for sending your questions. Your super chats

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your support right there are and also

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as you notice there is a Qr

1:30:41

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while into a sport buy bitcoin you

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description. Joseph

1:30:55

the Wanna make a point. Against

1:31:07

that wonder for it's possible to published

1:31:09

matter names would not be. Lot.

1:31:15

About if you think we've got replaced

1:31:17

you will not have a shared the

1:31:19

tree of life and in the white

1:31:21

suits. Feature So

1:31:23

it is. Your

1:31:26

your psyche or to lose your studies you

1:31:28

because you're cutting out saw a lotta your

1:31:30

question I can hear. Glad.

1:31:41

To hear it out It yet try them. That.

1:31:59

i heard about not blotting out from

1:32:02

the tree of life in the book of Revelation I'm

1:32:04

aware of this and what's the what what are you saying and

1:32:09

then Jesus guaranteed that one group that their

1:32:11

names would never be blotted out of the

1:32:13

book of life written about in the

1:32:15

book of Revelation to maybe it's in chapter 2 or chapter

1:32:17

3 I'm familiar with it what about it so

1:32:21

it is possible to lose your salvation if you're a

1:32:23

believer in Christ you know

1:32:27

so I don't think that just because you're saved that

1:32:30

you're going to be having eternal life he's

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be well and I'm not trying to be

1:33:58

rude to you but say that you're a

1:34:01

prophet how do you believe that you're a prophet I'm not trying

1:34:03

to be mean but there's there's

1:34:05

no more prophets today the

1:34:09

Lord has used the gift of prophecy that I

1:34:12

carry it's one of the gifts of the spirit I carry you know

1:34:15

thousands of times he told me the future in

1:34:17

different situations come to pass the

1:34:21

fivefold ministry written about in Ephesians 4

1:34:23

11 is still a play

1:34:26

basically if you will well

1:34:30

in the in the period in the period

1:34:32

when Paul was writing and talking to people

1:34:35

who were receiving direct inspiration

1:34:37

and could speak for God like the

1:34:40

Apostles or like people in the book

1:34:42

of Acts that we see that's the

1:34:44

time where Paul's writing that but we

1:34:46

also have predictions for example in Zechariah

1:34:48

where when the Messianic era comes there

1:34:51

won't be prophecy and anybody who claims

1:34:53

to prophesy will be stoned or will

1:34:55

be excommunicated because there is no new

1:34:58

ongoing divine revelations we don't need prophets

1:35:00

anymore in the church because we're in the era of

1:35:02

the kingdom why would we need prophets well

1:35:08

I mean the Ephesians 4 11 ministry

1:35:11

structures right there I just

1:35:13

answered that I just I

1:35:15

just answered that did you not hear

1:35:17

anything that I just said did you not hear anything I said

1:35:26

no you don't I mean did you not

1:35:28

hear what I said yeah I mean what

1:35:31

did I say

1:35:34

no when

1:35:39

Paul wrote that to the

1:35:41

Ephesians that was in a period when there

1:35:43

was still ongoing divine revelation

1:35:45

the Apostles were still alive that

1:35:47

mean any that meant anything that

1:35:49

they talked about was the

1:35:52

words of God because they had that

1:35:54

authority as appointed directly by Christ he

1:35:56

who hears you hears me right and

1:35:59

there's a There's ongoing revelation from the

1:36:01

from Pentecost and so forth. But

1:36:04

when the last apostle died, there's

1:36:06

no more divine revelations and prophets

1:36:10

It was once for all committed to the saints.

1:36:12

So how can you be a prophet and Be

1:36:15

speaking via the Holy Spirit when we're already

1:36:18

told we already know that the office of

1:36:20

the prophet is not necessary anymore Well,

1:36:25

it's simple you have I have two verses to give

1:36:27

to you first one is What Jesus

1:36:29

spoke anybody who believes in me you'll do the same

1:36:31

things and even greater basically Yeah, but you're

1:36:34

not taking into it one But

1:36:36

you're just assuming that you're just assuming that that's You're

1:36:39

assuming that that's for all time and

1:36:41

not for a specific time. So once

1:36:43

the revelation was done Because

1:36:52

of all the things I just said because there is no

1:36:54

new revelations once the last apostle

1:36:56

died as Jude says the faith

1:36:58

once for all delivered to the

1:37:00

saints. So there's no need for

1:37:02

any new revelations or prophets It's

1:37:08

the faith once for all delivered to the Saints so

1:37:11

the very beginning Every

1:37:19

word and every Did we

1:37:21

do as believers must be in the name

1:37:23

of Jesus? We must hear

1:37:25

from Jesus himself and speak his living work

1:37:28

Oracles, there's another Bible verse about

1:37:31

living as oracles of God. I don't know what

1:37:33

the references Yeah,

1:37:36

but that doesn't that doesn't mean that you're getting

1:37:38

new divine inspiration. It means that you are Becoming

1:37:41

conformed to the person of Christ participating

1:37:43

in his divine life Yeah,

1:37:46

sanctification is part of it. But if Jesus wants to

1:37:48

prophesy out of me in 2024 He

1:37:51

can do it. If the Holy Spirit tells me

1:37:53

a prophecy This is

1:37:55

the same. This is the same arguments that

1:37:57

the Mormons make If

1:38:00

that were actually the case, we wouldn't

1:38:02

actually be able to confirm what Scripture

1:38:04

was or the

1:38:06

teachings because you could always just say,

1:38:09

well, the canon

1:38:12

and revelation and prophecy

1:38:14

is not closed, so

1:38:17

he can give me new stuff, right?

1:38:20

No, it's not about

1:38:22

the canon. It's about following

1:38:24

the Spirit. I mean, how can we follow

1:38:27

the Spirit without hearing Him and moving

1:38:29

with Him like Jesus is the same thing? Well, I'll – we

1:38:31

don't know that it – I mean, you think

1:38:33

that it's a Spirit, and maybe you – Well, then

1:38:35

you have to test the Spirit, then, Jay. I mean,

1:38:37

the Holy Spirit has to confess that Jesus Christ is

1:38:40

coming to flesh. Okay, but – If

1:38:42

He tells me, go to Food Lion here in Greensboro,

1:38:44

North Carolina, and prophesy to the lady with, you

1:38:46

know, that you're going to see in about three seconds, three, two, one, and

1:38:48

count to down it. There she is in front of me. Yeah,

1:38:51

that's not how this works. Not from

1:38:53

a demon, Jay. If He tells me

1:38:55

– It's from yourself. It's from your own

1:38:57

mind and heart. That's where it's from. If

1:39:00

I hear His still-sport voice telling me, Joseph,

1:39:02

that lady right there that you're looking at

1:39:05

has a baby boy inside of her. And

1:39:08

I go to the lady with a baby boy, and

1:39:10

she doesn't even look pregnant. And I say, man, have

1:39:12

you ever made a boy? How did you know? I

1:39:14

haven't told anybody. Because the Holy

1:39:16

Spirit told me, man, He's real. God loves

1:39:18

you. I mean – Ricky,

1:39:20

what's up, man? Yeah,

1:39:28

and I'm not trying to be mean to that guy, but there's

1:39:30

no way

1:39:33

for either him or anyone else

1:39:35

to discern or to delineate

1:39:37

between whether that is really God, a

1:39:39

demon, or His own heart telling Him

1:39:42

that, His own emotions and feelings. And

1:39:45

that's why the Orthodox Church is very

1:39:47

different when it comes to this versus

1:39:49

Protestants or Roman Catholics, who are also

1:39:52

the proto-charismatics, by the way, with all

1:39:54

of the insane, histrionic women saints who

1:39:56

believe they're having spiritual orgasms and all

1:39:59

this nonsense. This is the same

1:40:01

delusion and I'm not trying to be mean to that guy, but I'm

1:40:03

just pointing out that go ahead by

1:40:06

the way when I

1:40:09

was in Calvary Chapel and you

1:40:11

come at evangelical non-denominational Christianity People

1:40:16

were constantly claiming

1:40:18

this and It was

1:40:20

just anarchy like like people were trying to

1:40:23

one up each other like no God told

1:40:25

me this like And

1:40:28

so it was almost like the way that

1:40:30

you see like the left like it implodes

1:40:32

and destroys itself, right? Where

1:40:35

it's like point of privilege point of no

1:40:37

you're violating that Now you

1:40:39

didn't use that this was happening

1:40:41

in evangelicalism because everybody was claiming To

1:40:45

have these gifts and prophecies

1:40:48

From the Holy Spirit and keep in mind Calvary

1:40:50

Chapel came out of four square church

1:40:52

and Pentecostals right they were definitely

1:40:55

a lot of those kind

1:40:57

of spiritual gifts contradicting

1:40:59

each other and so you know

1:41:01

my friend Ryan I came up this whole thing that

1:41:04

Like we could do a whole sketch comedy

1:41:06

on Where

1:41:09

it was like X-Men powers and they

1:41:11

were like well my you know my

1:41:13

spiritual gift of laser beam eyes, right?

1:41:15

Mike everybody's like fighting each other and

1:41:21

Right if you go to any charismatic Church

1:41:23

or Pentecostal Church the first thing you'll notice

1:41:25

is the confusion and we're

1:41:27

told in Corinthians God is not the

1:41:30

author of confusion. God has always had

1:41:32

liturgical worship Even when there

1:41:34

were living ongoing prophets in the

1:41:36

Old Testament, right? Jesus is the

1:41:38

prophet of prophets How did Jesus

1:41:40

worship was he rolling around the

1:41:42

floor acting like a dog barking?

1:41:45

giggling and acting like a buffoon and

1:41:47

knocking people down with you know his his

1:41:51

Sport coat like Benny hand. No, he went

1:41:53

to liturgical worship at the synagogue because he's

1:41:55

the God of the Old Testament Who gave

1:41:57

liturgical worship? He didn't give a

1:41:59

bunch of idiots rolling around and barking and

1:42:02

acting like loons. So that has

1:42:04

nothing to do with biblical religion at all. Yeah,

1:42:07

and I'd also ask Joseph too, in

1:42:09

the kind of spirit of orderliness, what

1:42:12

man are you accountable to? So

1:42:15

we Orthodox believe God speaks to us.

1:42:17

We have a personal relationship with God.

1:42:21

But we've talked about this. I realize

1:42:24

that I'm constantly in delusion and

1:42:26

so I have a spiritual father like in

1:42:29

light of kind of virtue ethics that

1:42:32

I take these things to. Like I don't lean

1:42:35

on my own understanding and be like, well God

1:42:37

told me this and this came true and I,

1:42:40

you know, it says Scripture

1:42:42

of wise man seeks multiple counsel. Who

1:42:44

are you under? Who

1:42:47

sent you? That's the other

1:42:49

thing. A prophet sent. Have

1:42:51

you ever settled or sent post-old us who

1:42:55

sent you? Yes, as Paul says in Hebrews

1:42:57

6, no man takes this honor unto himself.

1:42:59

Now every Protestant is going to say, oh

1:43:02

the Holy Spirit directly commissioned me. Father Deacon,

1:43:04

what would you say to that with somebody

1:43:06

a Protestant as well? God himself commissioned me.

1:43:10

Well, that's not what we even see

1:43:12

in the apostolic

1:43:14

times in the first century because

1:43:17

all the heretics were claiming the same

1:43:19

thing. You

1:43:21

see this with St. Ernest and

1:43:23

Ignatius. They

1:43:26

tell you exactly what man

1:43:28

sent them. So they're

1:43:30

not like, well it's just the

1:43:32

Holy Spirit. I'm of God. Again,

1:43:35

they were under an authority of

1:43:37

man, not against God,

1:43:41

correct, but

1:43:44

men of God. Okay,

1:43:47

so people in the chat are asking me and I

1:43:49

knew this was going to come up. So aren't there

1:43:52

elders who have the gift of

1:43:54

clairvoyance? Elders can know

1:43:56

the future. There can be clairvoyance, absolutely. That

1:43:58

is not the same thing. as

1:44:00

divine revelation. So

1:44:02

public divine revelation ceased

1:44:06

when the apostles died, thus the faith was

1:44:08

once for all delivered to the saints. So

1:44:10

I'm not saying that there aren't people who

1:44:12

have premonitions and so forth, but that

1:44:14

is not the same thing as adding to and

1:44:17

being the voice of

1:44:19

God or something like that, as if

1:44:22

there's new texts to add to the

1:44:24

scriptures. And also,

1:44:26

they're under people. They're

1:44:29

not getting visions by themselves

1:44:31

and claiming that a direct

1:44:33

contact with the Holy Spirit

1:44:35

apart from the ecclesial authority

1:44:37

and structure of the church,

1:44:40

which automatically is going to make

1:44:42

you suspect that it's like... So

1:44:45

Christ established the church gives

1:44:47

his revelation in toto,

1:44:51

right? Catoholos to

1:44:54

it and has an authoritative structure.

1:44:56

And then somebody's saying, I'm

1:44:58

outside of that. Like, I

1:45:00

don't exist and God's talking to me outside

1:45:03

of the church that he

1:45:05

established. And that doesn't

1:45:07

sound bizarre. Yeah, all

1:45:09

the Protestants, every Protestant, every Messianic

1:45:12

Protestant, you know, Judy

1:45:15

Eyes Evangelical needs to watch this video, Roots

1:45:17

of Ancient Christian Worship, because it's going to

1:45:20

show you the proper way to worship is

1:45:22

not rock bands and rolling

1:45:24

on the floor and acting like an idiot, but it's

1:45:26

actually this way. Ordered liturgical

1:45:28

worship right there. So... And

1:45:33

you know what? You can talk to both Jay,

1:45:37

Phil, Father Moses,

1:45:41

who was in here myself, who experienced

1:45:44

psychedelics. And even when I was, you

1:45:46

know, considering myself Christian, guess what I

1:45:49

thought? I thought God and I

1:45:51

was making predictions, weird stuff that was

1:45:53

happening that you couldn't explain. I thought

1:45:55

the Holy Spirit was speaking to me.

1:46:00

had a period when I was young where

1:46:02

I was I thought charismaticism was correct I

1:46:04

used to attend charismatic churches I

1:46:06

thought the gibberish was an angelic prayer language

1:46:08

I thought all those same things for a

1:46:11

couple years when I was young and

1:46:13

then I realized well hey wait a minute

1:46:15

you know Corinthians is actually talking about known

1:46:17

languages nothing about gibberish Paul is talking about

1:46:20

people who have the gift of languages to

1:46:22

instruct people in their native tongues that's the

1:46:24

gift of tongues it's not gibberish there's no

1:46:27

bumbling rambling prayer languages of

1:46:30

nonsense and all

1:46:32

that stuff Paul's talking about ultimately by the

1:46:34

way is noetic prayer so that's

1:46:36

what he's really talking about in terms of

1:46:39

seeing the third heavens and praying in the

1:46:41

spirit some guy's saying

1:46:43

that I'm arguing with elders I don't know

1:46:45

what you're talking about I did not say

1:46:47

that there's no gifts of clairvoyance or miracles

1:46:49

or anything like that I just simply said

1:46:52

that those are not new public divine revelations

1:46:54

that we add to the Bible okay we're

1:46:56

not Mormons we don't have we're

1:46:59

not a cult that follows ongoing

1:47:01

divine revelations and I'm sorry

1:47:04

if you think that that we do

1:47:06

that's just simply mistaken where in the

1:47:08

when the acumenical councils when they go

1:47:10

to citing authoritative texts

1:47:13

what do they always put first first

1:47:16

is scripture second

1:47:18

is the Holy Father's and their interpretation

1:47:20

of scripture third is

1:47:22

arguments from logic and reasoning that's

1:47:24

the pattern that you see in the acumenical councils I

1:47:29

think he was misunderstanding to when I

1:47:31

was saying because I've made

1:47:33

this argument with Mormons if

1:47:37

scripture and public prophecy

1:47:40

like we're talking about new

1:47:43

revelations like

1:47:46

if that wasn't closed if

1:47:48

there we

1:47:50

wouldn't be able to confirm the canonicity

1:47:53

of the scripture why because

1:47:57

going back to this st.

1:47:59

Vincent Lorenz, what

1:48:02

all have hold everywhere at all

1:48:05

times already implies a catajolos,

1:48:09

what was once delivered to the saints and

1:48:11

that it's closed and complete. So

1:48:13

the reason why we were able to say that and

1:48:16

verify the canon and

1:48:18

say this was part of what was

1:48:21

always believed everywhere at all times is

1:48:24

precisely because it was closed. Can

1:48:26

you imagine the epistemological

1:48:29

anarchy that would occur

1:48:31

if you were

1:48:33

allowed to be, well there's new stuff you see,

1:48:36

why can't we include this? This is Islam.

1:48:39

It

1:48:42

undermines being able to affirm anything

1:48:45

whatsoever and furthermore it

1:48:48

reduces everything to a subjectivism.

1:48:50

There's no mechanism to objectively

1:48:54

verify if this is true. Everybody

1:48:56

and this is exactly what you get in

1:48:59

Mormonism. That's why it

1:49:01

just has reduced to burning the

1:49:03

bosom and subjective feelings. Well it's

1:49:06

just the Holy Spirit speaking. He told me

1:49:09

this. Do

1:49:12

you see how it undermines everything? Like

1:49:15

there is chaos. You wouldn't

1:49:17

be able to confirm what Christ

1:49:19

taught, what the

1:49:21

Apostles taught. I mean

1:49:23

if we're Christians is it not an

1:49:26

obvious like end of debate by

1:49:28

pointing out that there's no new revelations

1:49:30

so obviously Islam is not true. Well

1:49:32

if there are new revelations why can't even

1:49:34

use that as an argument against Islam? Maybe

1:49:37

mom it is a new prophet. And

1:49:41

you understand that Muslims are going to tell you

1:49:43

that the miracles around

1:49:45

the Quran and Muhammad prove Islam.

1:49:48

I mean have you guys not ever interacted with Muslims? You don't

1:49:50

know that they say this. How are you going to combat

1:49:53

Muslims when they're going to make all the same

1:49:55

miracle arguments that you're making? Well there's new revelations

1:49:59

and look at all the the miracles are

1:50:01

on the Quran therefore Islam is true. So

1:50:04

this is why we do this is to

1:50:06

debunk these

1:50:08

terrible arguments. These are bad arguments.

1:50:12

Just claims of miracles don't prove

1:50:14

Islam or Catholicism

1:50:17

and all of these groups claim miracles. So

1:50:20

how is that going to be the thing? So people

1:50:23

are asking, did I not just address

1:50:26

the issue of elders and making their predictions?

1:50:28

We just addressed this and people are like,

1:50:30

oh, that's all they're talking about in the chat.

1:50:33

What about pazios? What about we just addressed this?

1:50:40

I'm not trying to be rude, but guys, I mean,

1:50:43

did you just get here in the chat? Like we

1:50:45

just, we just addressed that man. Be

1:50:47

patient, go back a little bit instead

1:50:50

of sounding off. Ricky,

1:50:53

did you want to say

1:50:55

something? Yeah. Before I asked my

1:50:57

question, something that really spooked

1:51:01

me while I was Roman Catholic

1:51:04

was that the same charismatic

1:51:06

practices, these people do, they

1:51:08

do it in the

1:51:10

church. I mean, not in the church setting, but...

1:51:14

No, actually some of them do. No,

1:51:16

the Roman Catholic Church has adopted officially

1:51:18

from the papacy down the modern charismatic

1:51:20

movement. Yeah. So

1:51:22

I was part of a Eucharistic

1:51:25

adoration and

1:51:27

they had this like piano music, you

1:51:29

know, the Protestant repeat the chorus 10

1:51:31

times. And

1:51:35

just people speaking

1:51:37

in tongues and doing a bunch of

1:51:41

weird stuff. Some people were dancing

1:51:43

in the background and praying

1:51:47

over people like these

1:51:49

groups do. And it just totally

1:51:51

kind of spooked me. Cause it's

1:51:53

like, I left Protestant

1:51:55

to get to something that was... Protestant.

1:52:01

So it just really

1:52:04

proves way too much. Father

1:52:07

Peter said

1:52:09

that that's one of the main points

1:52:11

that for the churches

1:52:13

to unite, the Greek

1:52:15

churches would have to accept that

1:52:18

that type of worship is

1:52:20

legitimate and it's clearly

1:52:22

not orthodox. Right, I

1:52:24

mean this is, you know, Father Sarah

1:52:26

from Rose called this out as a

1:52:28

deception and I'm really glad that you

1:52:31

brought this up because this is actually

1:52:33

over overlooked in

1:52:36

terms of our critique. I always

1:52:38

forget that there's like papal gigantic

1:52:40

of here's all these charismatic Catholics

1:52:42

praying over Pope Francis. I

1:52:46

mean guys, come on.

1:52:49

So and here's here's

1:52:51

Francis participating. Yeah, all the

1:52:53

charismatic Roman Catholic.

1:52:55

Here's Cardinals praying charismatic prayers

1:52:57

over Pope Francis. Yeah. Yeah.

1:53:01

I mean, this is not the

1:53:03

way that we were intended to

1:53:06

worship is not through this charismatic

1:53:09

nonsense. All

1:53:14

right, let's see. Gulag.

1:53:25

Hey Jay, can you hear

1:53:28

me? I apologize in advance. I know you're

1:53:31

looking for debates and I know you get

1:53:33

super tired of going over all this real

1:53:35

basic stuff, but I'm

1:53:37

very inspired by my

1:53:40

recent delve into orthodoxy and I feel

1:53:42

like I'm getting a grasp on the

1:53:44

distinctions between the father and the son,

1:53:47

but I feel like I'm really falling

1:53:50

short on my understanding with the Holy

1:53:52

Spirit and I guess the best

1:53:54

way to just kind of conceptualize that if

1:53:57

you wouldn't mind giving a little guidance and understand

1:54:00

that and I'm not necessarily saying

1:54:02

that it does but if

1:54:04

the Holy Spirit is

1:54:06

directly related to the concept of

1:54:08

grace and if you want to refer me to

1:54:10

one of your previous videos or a book I

1:54:13

totally understand. I mean I would go back to

1:54:15

the front page of my channel

1:54:17

and at the very bottom is a lecture

1:54:19

going through the entirety of St.

1:54:21

John Damascus is on the Orthodox faith and

1:54:24

we start with the triad we go through each of

1:54:26

the arguments that he makes.

1:54:28

I would also say go and watch the

1:54:30

lectures of Dr. Bo Branson on the monarchy

1:54:32

of the Trinity but the person of the

1:54:35

Holy Spirit is the third person and

1:54:37

he is fully divine and

1:54:40

fully personal as much as the Father

1:54:42

and as much as the Son. He's

1:54:45

not equated to grace but

1:54:47

we do speak of the grace of the Spirit and so forth

1:54:49

the gifts of the Spirit but everything

1:54:51

in the Trinity is triadic so the grace

1:54:53

that comes to us is from the Father

1:54:56

through the Son and in the Spirit that's

1:54:58

St. Basil's classic sort of triadic

1:55:00

model or liturgical model for how all

1:55:02

of these things come to us. You

1:55:04

could also read St. Basil's on the Holy

1:55:06

Spirit which is not that long of a

1:55:08

work and it's a very good introduction to

1:55:11

this topic as well. Mack

1:55:13

did you want to try again? Now

1:55:23

on this other topic too I remember when

1:55:26

I was a triad this is a big

1:55:28

controversy because John

1:55:31

Paul II or Benedict gave

1:55:34

communion to quote Brother Roger

1:55:37

Schutz who was a

1:55:39

Swiss ecumenist. So

1:55:41

he's a Protestant Swiss ecumenist part

1:55:43

of the Tai Zae community and

1:55:46

this is a big scandal back

1:55:49

under I

1:55:52

forget which Pope. One of

1:55:54

the Popes gave him communion and it was a huge

1:55:57

scandal. Here it is. No,

1:56:00

and Benedict. So here's Tradd Benedict

1:56:03

giving this Protestant ecumenist the

1:56:05

Eucharist. Although

1:56:08

brother shoots had a Presbyterian background,

1:56:10

he received the Eucharist at the

1:56:12

Mass celebrated every morning

1:56:14

in his monastery from John Paul II

1:56:16

and Benedict XVI. This

1:56:19

actually contravened canonical prohibitions on receiving

1:56:21

the sacrament unless you are members

1:56:23

of the Catholic Church. But

1:56:25

of course in the in the ecumenist world

1:56:28

of Roman Catholicism, they don't

1:56:30

care and not

1:56:32

only that, this guy is the

1:56:35

father of charismatic Catholicism and ecumenism.

1:56:38

So the actual charismatic Catholic movement

1:56:41

comes partly from or maybe even largely from,

1:56:43

I'm trying to go from this stuff from

1:56:46