0:02

Welcome. To the Judge John Hodgman Podcast:

0:04

I'm Bill of Jesse Thorn Here with

0:06

Judge John Hodgman. This. Week's

0:08

episode was recorded live at the

0:11

Beautiful and strangely Goes around a

0:13

corner Majestic Theater. In. Madison,

0:15

Wisconsin. Oh this was a

0:17

this was a great time.

0:19

There's pizza. There. Is a

0:22

very intense dispute about neighborhoods and Madison.

0:24

And we don't know neighborhoods and Madison,

0:26

so our understanding will become your understanding

0:28

or what. We got out of there

0:31

alive. Basically. Yeah, It was incredible. And

0:33

we got to see Rob Thomas in

0:35

Not That Rob Thomas. The Rob Thomas

0:37

from The Judge John Hodgman podcast. The

0:40

Guy who wears Minion sleep shorts to

0:42

go outside and check his mailbox. And

0:45

previously walk as dog I

0:47

believe if remembering correctly. Absolutely!

0:49

We had a great time at the Majestic

0:52

Theater in Madison. The show was a blast!

0:54

Let's go to the stage at the Majestic.

0:56

In Madison, Wisconsin, Madison.

1:00

Wisconsin. You came to us seeking justice

1:03

and we're here to delivering. At.

1:05

The Majestic Theater. Or

1:12

whatever. but ago. Tonight's

1:26

case Anti Trust. who?

1:29

Matt. Brings the case against his

1:31

wife Jess. You have to make

1:34

all kinds of pizza, including his

1:36

beloved Detroit style. Just. Says

1:38

that's not pizza. it's only beats

1:41

up if it's round. Who's.

1:43

Right? Who's wrong? Only one can

1:45

decide. Please Rise as Judge John

1:47

Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers

1:49

an obscure cultural reference. hulu

1:56

side i would not as again

2:00

live it up you only live in every

2:02

stop on the tour so

2:04

she left mom do you know during

2:06

this just like a we

2:08

have like 10 more tour days please go

2:11

with a chocolat and Monro

2:14

here she went

2:16

and took that California trip

2:18

I might have to quit

2:20

the moon was gone her

2:22

hair might win said don't

2:24

look bad just come on

2:26

oh you gotta hold on hold

2:29

on you gotta

2:31

hold on take my hand

2:33

I'm standing right here you

2:36

gotta hold on

2:39

bail if Jesse thorns where the myth sort

2:42

of brought it on myself Matt

2:44

Jess please rise and raise your right hands do you

2:46

do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth

2:48

and nothing but the truth so help you God or

2:51

whatever I do you

2:53

swear to abide by Judge John

2:55

Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that

2:57

he believes pieces should be spherical

3:01

yeah yes Judge Hodgman you may

3:03

proceed Matt and Jesse may be seated for an immediate

3:05

summary judgment in one of your favorites can either of

3:07

you name the piece of culture that I referenced when

3:09

I entered the courtroom it sounded

3:11

like the badger fight song the badger

3:14

fight song great

3:16

yes I love it I'm putting it in it

3:19

would be legitimately amazing if you

3:21

sang the Wisconsin Badgers fight song

3:24

Matt what is your guess that

3:26

sounded like it could be some sort of

3:28

deep cut by Mark Cohen deep

3:31

cut that's so deep I don't

3:33

even know what you're talking about yeah not

3:35

one of those famous Mark Cohen smash

3:37

hits yeah all

3:39

gets are wrong the answer is

3:42

a song called hold on by

3:44

Tom Waits this entire tour

3:47

I'm only singing Tom Waits songs as

3:49

the cultural references little clue to those

3:51

listening down the road or maybe going

3:53

to be up here on stage later

3:55

and for the two reasons

3:57

one I love Tom Waits and two it drives

4:00

Jesse Bananas. Absolutely not. That was Hold

4:02

On, as performed by Tom Waits and

4:04

his album Mule Variations, but technically I

4:06

was a little winked to a

4:08

recent, a beautiful cover of that song

4:10

by the artist Madison Cunningham. Get it?

4:13

Yeah. But now we have

4:16

to hear your dumb case. So listen, I

4:18

like that that reply really rose

4:20

a line between, uh, and, uh.

4:25

Matt, uh, Matt and Jess,

4:27

before we get going, I am told

4:29

that, uh, you were married right

4:32

here on stage of the majestic theater

4:35

approximately 364 days ago. Is

4:39

that correct? That's correct. So would that

4:41

mean... Yeah. So

4:48

would that mean that tomorrow is

4:50

your first anniversary? That's right. That

4:53

is, um, I believe that's the paper anniversary. Right,

4:55

that's the paper anniversary. Right.

4:58

Oh, Jesse, you know, we should have, um, we should have gotten them

5:00

a gift. I'm really sorry. I, well, I, some

5:03

paper towels here. What, what's that? I got

5:05

them a gift. Oh, you did, Jesse? Yeah. Oh,

5:08

that's great. I didn't realize. I just want

5:10

to wish Matt and Jess a happy first

5:12

anniversary. I went down to the Friends of

5:14

the Madison Public Library and I got you

5:16

your long erotic weekend. Four

5:19

days of passion for a lifetime of

5:21

magnificent sex. By

5:24

Lana Holstein, M.D. and David Taylor,

5:26

M.D. You know, day

5:28

one, you and your lover rekindle that

5:30

spark, learning to tune into each other's

5:33

sexual energy. Oh boy. Day two, he

5:35

pleases her and unleashes her intersex

5:37

goddess. Day three,

5:39

she returns the favor for her

5:42

warrior lover and pleases him

5:44

as he's never been pleased before. And

5:47

the two of you become one

5:49

in a mind altering, soul shattering

5:51

ecstatic union that rocked your world

5:53

forever. With your long

5:56

erotic weekend, you're not in

5:58

sexual Dolesville anymore. You'll

6:00

learn how to awaken your sensual selves, rekindle

6:02

that sexual spark, master the tantric

6:04

secrets of orgasm, and take one

6:07

another to heights of passion you've

6:09

only dreamed about. This is

6:11

sex like you've never had

6:13

before. Your long erotic

6:15

weekend. 4pm show. I'll

6:20

remind Jesse. 4pm show. Children

6:23

in the audience. Happy

6:25

anniversary. You're all planning out your

6:27

Halloween costume which is sexy bailiff.

6:30

Thank you. Alright,

6:32

Jess and Matt, congratulations and I hope you enjoy

6:35

the book. Thank you very much. You're

6:37

no longer in sexual dullsville, you're in

6:39

the court of Judge Sean Hodgman. Who

6:41

seeks justice in this my fake court

6:43

of internet law? I do, your honor. And

6:45

you would be Matt, what is the nature of your complaint? It

6:48

was revealed to me approximately one year

6:51

ago that on your

6:53

wedding night, I

6:57

can't wait to hear the rest of this sentence. I

7:00

discovered through the

7:03

telling of an anecdote that

7:05

Jess does not believe that

7:07

non-circular pizzas are legitimately

7:10

pizzas and furthermore

7:12

that she will not eat one

7:14

or permit one to be made in

7:16

our home. Jess,

7:18

what is your problem with non- Wait,

7:21

hold on, hold on, we're ahead of

7:23

ourselves. What was the

7:25

anecdote that revealed that? So

7:28

this was a story from several

7:30

years ago about a time when

7:32

I was making a hamburger but

7:35

I did not have any hamburger buns. So

7:38

I used a

7:41

personal sized frozen pizza in the shape

7:43

of a square, cut that

7:46

in half, and that became buns. I

7:53

think you just got elected mayor of Waddif Madison.

7:55

I think I've heard everything I need to in

7:57

order to make my decisions. Jeff,

8:00

what's it like to be married to an

8:03

insane genius? You

8:05

know, it's only been a year. It's going to be a long life. Yeah.

8:09

Jeff, what is your... So, Jeff, you looked at this

8:11

and you're like, that's not only

8:13

not hamburger buns, that's not even pizza,

8:15

because it's square. That's correct. And what

8:17

is your issue with non-circular pizza? I

8:21

personally feel that any pizza

8:23

that is not in the

8:25

shape of a circle is unworthy of the name

8:29

of pizza. Wow. There are a

8:31

lot of non-circle pizzas in life, you know. Well,

8:34

you know, you can avoid them pretty easily.

8:36

Okay, fair enough. Matt,

8:38

what is a Detroit style pizza for those who do not

8:40

know? So a

8:43

Detroit style pizza is traditionally

8:45

much thicker. We'll

8:47

have a thicker dough. It's

8:50

a pan pizza. It's a pan pizza, as they

8:52

say. A thick

8:54

layer of cheese on top. And

8:59

the signature of the Detroit style is that...

9:01

A little on the nose out there, Wisconsin.

9:08

The Detroit style is known for its

9:11

crispy edges, where the cheese browns along

9:13

the edge of the pan and sort of

9:15

becomes one with the golden edge of the

9:17

crust. And are those edges

9:20

arcs or lines, sir? You

9:23

know the answer. Why are you thinking of those? They are

9:25

lines. They are lines because it is a...

9:27

What shape pizza? A square or

9:29

a rectangle. I'm

9:32

having a difficulty picturing this. Do we have any

9:34

evidence that we can bring forward? Some

9:37

square Detroit style arguably

9:40

pizza? Oh, look at that. I

9:42

believe we do. Who made this pizza,

9:44

Matt? I did. Fantastic.

9:47

Because you had some hamburgers lying around and you need some... I

9:54

know that the pizza that you're holding,

9:56

Jess, fills you with complete disgust. She's

9:59

anxious. actually kind of looks like she's going to throw up.

10:02

Angle it forward a little bit so the people at

10:04

home can see. It's a beautiful looking Detroit style pizza.

10:09

I'll take that off your hands. You

10:11

can use that paper towel to disinfect yourself

10:13

from this horrible contagion. Jess, you want to

10:16

take a square? Yeah, you bet I

10:18

do. Yeah, I know. Looks

10:20

really good. That is a thick

10:22

Detroit pizza right there. Thick Detroit

10:24

pizza for a thick San Francisco

10:26

Vela. It has pepperonis on

10:28

it, is that right? And these pepperonis

10:30

are also thick. Well done. Double thick.

10:32

Would you like a square? Yeah,

10:35

take one. Jess, may I

10:37

offer you a square? I'd

10:39

like to hold off until your verdict, if that would be all right.

10:42

Oh, that's true because if I rule this a pizza, then you

10:44

might have to eat it. Okay. Everyone

10:48

loves eating on Mike so I'll even have a bite. This

10:52

does remind me a little bit of what

10:55

someone in line in front of me at

10:57

the farmer's market here in Madison this morning

10:59

called a fashasha bread.

11:06

It does have some similarities to

11:09

a fashasha or a focaccia, as

11:11

you might say. Matt, I'll hold on to that if you

11:13

don't want to eat it on Mike. It's

11:15

really delicious though. I'll just

11:17

get it closer to Jess from Matt. Jess,

11:22

if this isn't pizza, what is it? It's

11:25

too thick bread with some cheese and

11:27

sauce and some toppings.

11:29

It's too thick bread with some cheese and sauce

11:32

and some toppings. And the bread

11:34

isn't baked when you put it in the

11:36

pan, right? The dough, it's dough, right? The dough

11:38

is raw. It's not like you're making a

11:40

french bread pizza after school or something

11:42

like that. This is a real dough that you made

11:45

from scratch and that probably took some time and

11:47

care. Absolutely. And yet your wife wants

11:49

nothing to do with it. I

11:51

understand, unfortunately. My

11:53

old friend Dan Grayson who

11:56

created the theme music for the sound of young

11:58

America and helped us with this

12:00

show, he calls it

12:02

cheesy sauce bread. He says there's pizza and cheesy

12:04

sauce bread. What do you think about that Jess?

12:07

Is that cold water? That really rings

12:09

true in my heart. Yeah, I like that definition.

12:11

I see. What kind of pizza did you grow

12:13

up with? Where did you grow up and what's

12:15

your pizza legacy? Yeah, so I

12:18

grew up in the Chicago suburbs. There's

12:20

no sugar. Oh, very famous for its

12:22

very thin pizzas, traditional thin. Well,

12:25

I do love deep dish. I

12:27

love, you know, somebody would for the lots of cheese.

12:30

I agree. Lots of cheese on pizza is great. But

12:32

Chicago also has all kinds

12:35

of tavern style thin crust. And

12:37

also, I don't know exactly the terminology for it,

12:39

but what I, you know, like a normal pan

12:42

pizza that's like circular, but like a medium

12:45

thickness crust. And

12:47

so that was the pizza I grew up

12:49

on all those three kinds. We

12:52

had pizza a lot growing up, but

12:54

I was never ever exposed to non

12:56

circular styles of pizza. Right.

12:59

Until I got to college. And

13:01

then what happened? And then, and then

13:03

the woke brigade marched in with

13:07

their pizza diversity training. You

13:14

know, if only, if only somebody,

13:17

you know, after a night out

13:20

had ordered Jess pizza. All

13:24

right. A chain that I've a local

13:26

chain that I've never heard of a

13:28

local chain that specializes in Detroit style

13:30

cheesy bread with

13:32

sauce. Right. And this

13:34

was again, the first time I had ever

13:36

even seen in person a pizza that was

13:39

not circular. And to describe it,

13:41

you know, it has a

13:43

lot of the same characteristics theoretically

13:45

as what you've described as destroyed style

13:48

pizza, but the crust

13:50

was like, I mean,

13:52

it was like four inches thick. There was

13:54

a layer of not olive oil or any

13:56

good kind of grease, but like the really

13:58

bad like. like bottom of

14:01

the fryer restaurant grease, you know, and

14:03

then not enough cheese and not enough

14:05

sauce. It

14:07

was just, it was terrible. It was, it

14:10

was a terrible introduction to non-circular

14:12

pizza and I have to say that I have

14:15

in, you know, almost 20

14:17

years since never experienced a

14:20

square pizza that was worth ever wanting to eat again.

14:22

Wow. And you had never seen

14:24

a square pizza till you went to college? I mean,

14:27

I used... What sheltered life you were? I

14:29

knew that they existed... Were you part of a religious order of

14:31

some kind? I was not. I

14:34

mean, I grew up Catholic, but

14:36

yeah. You

14:39

heard of Sicilian pizza, right? I've heard of

14:41

Sicilian pizza. Yeah, there's some Catholics there. Right.

14:44

It's, that is true. I

14:48

knew that they existed. I had never been expected

14:50

to eat it before in my life and I

14:52

was soundly disappointed. When was the

14:54

first time, Matt, that you tried to

14:56

make Detroit style pizza for Jess? So

15:00

this conversation actually took place before

15:02

I had considered making

15:05

Detroit style pizza for Jess.

15:07

Oh, you took it as a dare. I'll

15:11

be very honest, yes, that's part of it. Okay.

15:14

Because in my notes here, I'm told like, oh, you

15:16

have a very deep connection to Detroit style pizza. It

15:18

goes back in your history. You want to reconnect with

15:20

that history, but mostly you just want to make your

15:22

wife annoyed. You

15:26

took it as a marriage night dare and

15:28

you were going to show her. You

15:30

got up out of bed immediately and

15:32

started searching for recipes. This is possible

15:34

square pizza. This is less

15:36

a Detroit style pizza, more of an

15:38

F me, F you style pizza. So

15:43

I am originally from a suburb of Detroit.

15:45

Okay. And some of my earliest

15:47

pizza memories are of square

15:51

thick pizzas. Like

15:53

we demonstrated. And

15:58

I love making pizza. I love cooking for my wife.

16:02

And I would love to

16:04

expand my repertoire and

16:08

bring that style of pizza into

16:10

our rotation at home. But

16:13

you make other kinds of pizza as well, right?

16:15

I do. Do you make round style? I

16:17

make that style as well. In

16:20

a pan? We have one of those, right? Let's

16:22

take a look at the round style. Oh,

16:26

that's a beautiful round pizza that everyone would

16:28

agree is pizza. Thank you.

16:31

Yeah. Jess is not only happy to

16:33

hold it, but is reaching for it. And

16:35

she's going to eat some, loudly on microphone,

16:37

I trust. What

16:39

do we have on this one? It looks like some olives

16:42

and some... This one is apple

16:44

dates. Never

16:46

mind. Boatshears. Jess,

16:49

give that back. Give that back. Spit it out, please.

16:52

Spit it out. Thank you. Wow.

16:59

Let's go back to the hamburger with pizza buns. Is

17:03

he okay? Apple

17:07

and figs. Well, that's

17:09

a thing. People do that, I suppose.

17:11

Your objection is too much bread, meanwhile.

17:14

Dot, dot, dot. Yeah, exactly. Jess,

17:16

let me ask you... We'll do a quick quiz.

17:19

Or, you know, give me your opinion on what is or is not

17:21

pizza. And if you agree

17:23

with Jess, applaud. And if

17:25

you disagree with Jess, boo.

17:28

We've talked about some of these already. Sicilian-style

17:32

pizza. No.

17:35

Wow. Chicago

17:39

deep dish pizza.

17:42

Yes. Wow. Some

17:46

disagree. Controversial. Controversial.

17:49

In Chicago, they won't let a pizza alone. Like,

17:51

they won't let it just be pizza. They're cooking

17:54

pizza in bowls. Anyway. Chicago,

17:56

you mentioned it, Chicago's Tavern-cut pizza.

18:01

Ah ha! And

18:03

yet, when it is tavern

18:05

cut, what is the shape of the

18:07

piece? It's square. Yes! What

18:10

does it become then? Non-pizza?

18:13

It started as a circle. It originated as

18:15

a circle and it's cut into squares or

18:18

trapezoids, whatever you like. Totally fine.

18:21

Sure. New Haven style white clam

18:23

pizza. What

18:25

shape is it? A

18:28

blong. No

18:32

right angles. Clams.

18:34

I'll allow it. Oh,

18:37

thank you. Wow!

18:41

You don't know who you're dealing with, do you? White

18:45

clam pizza is the

18:47

best pizza. That's a

18:49

fact. That's what they

18:52

teach in the Protestant

18:54

religion. I'm also a Catholic. Pizza

18:57

on a bagel. No,

19:00

but you can have it any time. You

19:06

should have used that for your hamburger. I do. Don't.

19:11

If you put your hamburger on a

19:13

bagel, not only is it not a

19:15

sandwich, it's not a hamburger. That's

19:18

true. So Matt, you

19:20

grew up in suburban Detroit. You claim to have some

19:22

deep connection to this pizza. But

19:25

you like round pizza too. Why don't you just make

19:27

round pizza for your wonderful bride? I

19:30

do make round pizza for my bride. Yeah,

19:32

but why do you try to force your square pizza on

19:34

her? Because

19:36

I think it has qualities to

19:39

offer that a circular pizza doesn't have.

19:42

Go on. The shape

19:45

is one. The

19:49

bubbly cheesiness that crisps up

19:51

around the edges, the crispy

19:53

dough, the tall sides. It's

19:57

just a different experience than the

19:59

circular pizza. pizza. And you have fun

20:01

making it? I have tremendous fun making it. Jess,

20:03

if I were to rule in your favor it

20:05

says here you'd like me to order that Matt

20:07

is free to make and eat what he wants

20:11

but Detroit style cannot be the only pizza

20:13

option offered. In

20:15

other words one square one round. Yes

20:18

please that seems eminently fair what's wrong with that

20:20

Matt? This is

20:22

the first time hearing of that. Okay

20:27

Matt if I were to rule in your favor

20:29

it says that I should rule that you should be

20:31

able to make Detroit style pizza serve it for dinner

20:33

and that Jess has to acknowledge that it is

20:36

pizza. I

20:38

request that she be that

20:40

she allow it to be made in the house ideally

20:43

she would consume it but

20:45

yes I would like to be allowed to make non-circular

20:49

pizzas in my own home. Well she's saying you can

20:51

you just have to keep it to yourself. Do

20:54

you know what I mean? Yeah it's like a

20:56

side deal but you have with yourself. Personal

20:59

care we call it in Chicago.

21:01

I consider that as a compromise

21:03

but I think the the work

21:05

of making two kinds of

21:07

pizza is maybe a

21:09

little bit unreasonable. Jess

21:12

any closing arguments? I would

21:14

say if this was about a topping like

21:16

a mushroom or something. What's your favorite

21:18

topping for pizza? Oh pepperoni. Yeah. Which

21:20

is why he put the pepperoni in

21:22

the Detroit style pizza. Try

21:24

to trick me. That's

21:26

why he made that gross round pizza and put pepperonis

21:29

on the square one to try to

21:31

sway you. Oh Matt. Matt what's

21:33

your favorite topping? Quint? Lately

21:39

I liked Italian sausage and

21:41

giardiniera. Oh very Chicago that's

21:43

pretty good. Jess I have a question for you.

21:46

Matt said he loves to cook. Is

21:49

he the kind of cooking husband who cooks

21:51

most of the food in the house or

21:54

is he the kind of cooking

21:56

husband who likes to do elaborate

21:58

cooking projects once a months and

22:01

then provide them with great aplomb and

22:03

also they're always either pizza or barbecue.

22:08

He is the former. He is the

22:10

person doing most of the cooking in

22:12

the household which I deeply deeply appreciate

22:14

and I make that clear all the

22:16

time especially when he makes delicious circular

22:19

pizzas. I am

22:21

more the one that will do the elaborate once

22:23

a month every dish in the kitchen and then

22:25

it's either pizza or

22:28

barbecue. I

22:31

think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I

22:33

will retire to my chambers. I'll be back in

22:36

a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge

22:38

John Hodgman exits the court. Matt,

22:45

how are you feeling about your chances in this

22:47

case? I

22:49

feel pretty good. I think I have I've presented a

22:52

solid case and I I'm

22:55

trust that whatever the judge decides

22:57

will be reasonable and fair. Jess,

22:59

did you think that by offering

23:01

to eat 50% square

23:03

pizza you could duck the

23:05

issue of whether square pizza is

23:07

actually itself pizza? I'm

23:10

too stubborn for that. I did not think that. How

23:14

do you feel about your chances? I feel

23:16

that my chances are dwindling as

23:18

time goes on. Well

23:21

let's be honest all of our chances are

23:23

dwindling. Just

23:26

something we have to come to terms with. You

23:29

can talk to your priest about it. We'll

23:32

see what Judge Hodgman has to say about this

23:34

when we come back in just a moment. You're

23:41

listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm

23:43

Bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course the

23:45

Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought

23:47

to you by you the members of maximumfund.org.

23:51

Thanks to everybody who's

23:54

gone to maximumfund.org/ join

23:56

and you can join them by

23:58

going to maximumfund.org. Please

24:06

rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters

24:09

the courtroom and presents his photo. First

24:19

of all, I have to commend Matt for

24:21

his ingenuity in putting a burger on two

24:23

pieces of frozen pizza. Just

24:26

neither pizza nor a hamburger nor a sandwich is

24:28

an entirely new thing that you should be selling

24:30

out of a truck somewhere. And

24:34

then you will be celebrating your second anniversary

24:36

with Guy Fieri. When

24:42

I was young, I

24:44

had an entrepreneurial spirit myself. I

24:48

decided that I was going to

24:50

sell English muffin

24:52

pizzas out of

24:54

the first floor window of our

24:56

home in suburban Brooklyn, Massachusetts. I

24:59

came to this decision because I

25:02

had noticed in the refrigerator we had English

25:04

muffins, tomato sauce, and

25:07

mozzarella cheese. And so therefore

25:09

my costs were zero. This

25:13

was going to be a pure profit operation for

25:15

me. I was going to rake

25:17

it in and I would become famous in the neighborhood.

25:19

The only thing I cared about, I didn't care about

25:21

pizza. I would become

25:24

famous in the neighborhood for being the kid who

25:26

sells English muffin pizzas out of the first floor

25:28

window of his parents' home. We put up posters

25:30

all around. It was a very good

25:32

price point, 25 cents. I

25:34

was making the English muffin pizzas in

25:37

the toaster oven. I could barely keep

25:39

up with supply because people were walking

25:41

across our lawn to our

25:43

patio and ordering the pizzas. And

25:46

I started to realize as I was selling them,

25:48

like, well, hotcakes,

25:52

which probably I should have sold, that

25:54

none of these people were

25:57

strangers to me. They were all friends

25:59

of my parents. and

26:02

slowly it dawned on me that

26:04

these were not just citizens of Brookline walking

26:06

around going, hmm, 25 cents for an English

26:08

muffin pizza, good deal. I'll walk across private

26:10

property to get it. These

26:14

are people who were sent to my house

26:16

by my parents to buy the

26:19

pizza, and that's when I realized

26:21

there is such a thing as

26:23

a dishonest day's work. I was

26:27

a Nepo baby English muffin pizza magnate.

26:31

I felt truly ashamed of myself, and

26:34

only then did I realize this isn't pizza

26:36

at all. There

26:38

are things that are not pizza, and

26:41

I would agree that focaccia is not pizza. For

26:44

Shasha. I

26:47

forgot how they say it in Wisconsin. Beyond

26:51

Wisconsin style for Shasha, there is also

26:53

Altoona pizza, which is in

26:55

Altoona, Pennsylvania, which is square pizza with

26:58

American cheese on it. There

27:01

is St. Louis style pizza, which

27:07

the entire Provel family is in the

27:09

house, which

27:11

is essentially a salting cracker with Provel processed

27:13

cheese on it, and

27:16

acquired taste. Are

27:18

these things pizza, even though they are an affront

27:20

to the census? That is the question. And

27:24

I have to say, yes, as long as

27:27

it is a flatbread that you are cooking

27:29

with sauce and toppings on it, as

27:31

long as it is served in a bar, as long as

27:33

it is shared in a

27:36

college dorm room, for example, or after

27:38

hours in a tavern, as

27:40

long as it fits most, and especially

27:43

if it has clams on it, it's a

27:45

delicious pizza. Pizza is

27:47

a state of mind as much as it is

27:49

a food way, and

27:51

that state of mind is usually high or drunk. Now,

27:56

this is a 4 o'clock in the

27:58

afternoon show. dead

28:00

sober. Well, what time is it actually? How

28:03

far after four is it? Four

28:05

forty. Four forty. Okay. I

28:09

am dead sober and yet I

28:11

still enjoy this very, very thick and

28:13

fluffy Detroit style pizza that you made, Matt.

28:16

I will not stop you from eating it. I will

28:18

not stop you from enjoying it. I will not stop

28:20

you from making it. I will

28:23

not stop you from calling it pizza. But

28:27

in the interest of your marriage and

28:29

such that it goes on for a long time, keep

28:32

it away from your way. It's

28:35

really not her thing. It's

28:37

really not her thing. You should make

28:39

it for yourself, make it for your friends who come over and

28:43

not try to force it on her because after all, settle

28:45

law on the support that people like what they like. Keep

28:48

this away from your wife. This

28:52

is personal for you. One thing about a marriage,

28:54

and I've been in one for a long time,

28:56

is that you have to maintain separate lives

28:58

as well as the lives that you have

29:00

entwined together. Your separate interests, your hobbies, and

29:02

your pursuits and so forth. This is one

29:04

of them. That said, of

29:07

course it's pizza. Detroit

29:11

style pizza. This is the sound of

29:13

a gallop. Judge John

29:15

Hobson will start with that. Matt, Jess,

29:17

thank you for joining us on the

29:19

Judge John Hobson podcast. Songheap

29:29

with John Luke Roberts is a real podcast

29:32

made up of fake podcasts. Like if you

29:34

have a cupboard in your lower back, what

29:36

would you keep in it? So I'm gonna

29:38

say mugs. A little yogurt and a spoon.

29:40

A small handkerchief that was given to me

29:42

by my grandmother on her deathbed. Maybe some

29:44

spare honey. I'd keep batteries in it. I'd

29:47

pretend to be a toy. If I had

29:49

a cupboard in my lower back, I'd probably

29:51

fill it with spines. If

29:53

you had a cupboard in your lower back, what

29:55

would you keep in it? Doesn't exist. We made

29:57

it up for Soundheap with John Luke Roberts. award-winning

30:00

comedy podcast from Maximum Fun made up

30:02

of hundreds of stupid podcasts. Listen

30:05

and subscribe to Soundheap with John

30:07

Luke Roberts, now. Oh

30:11

my gosh, hi, it's me, Dave Holmes, host of the

30:13

pop culture game show Troubled Waters. On

30:16

Troubled Waters we play a whole host of games, like

30:18

one where I describe a show using limerick and our

30:20

guests have to figure out what it is. Let's do

30:22

one right now. What show am I talking about? This

30:25

podcast has game after game and brilliant guests

30:27

who come play him. The host is named

30:29

Dave. It could be your fave. So try

30:31

it. Life won't be the same. A

30:34

big business starring Thug Midler and Lily

30:36

Tomlin. Close. But no. Oh, is

30:38

it Troubled Waters, the pop culture quiz show with

30:40

all your favorite comedians? Yes, Troubled Waters

30:43

is the answer to this question

30:45

and all of my life's problems.

30:47

Now, legally, we actually can't guarantee

30:49

that. But you can find it

30:51

on maximumfun.org or wherever you get

30:53

your podcasts. Judge

30:59

John Hodgman, we're taking a quick break

31:01

from the case. You've got Solid Sound

31:04

coming right up, right? That's

31:06

right. June 28th through the 30th,

31:08

it's the Solid Sound Festival in

31:10

North Adams, Massachusetts. It's Wilco,

31:13

the band's, every

31:15

other year festival of music

31:17

arts and delights, the

31:20

best music festival that you can

31:22

find in a former electronic parts

31:24

factory in Western

31:26

Massachusetts. It's a total delight. And

31:29

not only are you going to get to see Wilco play

31:31

two nights in a row, and not only are you going

31:33

to get to see incredible musicians like

31:35

Nick Lowe and Young Fresh Fellows, the

31:38

band Wednesday, all

31:41

of your various Wilco side projects,

31:43

but an incredible comedy stage co-hosted

31:46

by me and your friend Gene

31:49

Gray, featuring the comedic

31:51

stylings of Dave Hill, Todd

31:53

Barry, Sydney, Washington, Brittany Carney,

31:56

and an incredible native

31:58

of Massachusetts, semi-native. of Massachusetts

32:00

himself, Eugene Merman.

32:02

All there, Solid Sound

32:04

Festival. Go to solidsoundfestival.com

32:07

for tickets to the whole thing or a

32:09

single day ticket or whatever you wanna do. It

32:12

would be so much fun to see Judge John Hodgman

32:14

listeners there. And I totally guarantee

32:16

that you will see Monty Belmonti around there too because he

32:18

is a big part of the festival as well. Jesse,

32:21

what do you have going on? I have some

32:23

really great guests on Bullseye. A lot

32:25

of Judge John Hodgman listeners probably already know

32:27

that I host the NPR show, Bullseye with

32:29

Jesse Thorne. It's a long form interview show

32:32

with people from the world of arts and

32:34

culture. This week, I

32:36

have Zucker Abrams Zucker, the

32:40

directors and writers of

32:43

the airplane of airplane of

32:45

the Naked Gun movies, of

32:47

Police Squad, of Top Secret,

32:50

some of the scary movies, some

32:52

of the like literal funniest things that

32:55

have ever existed in show business. They

32:57

are the sweetest, most hilarious dudes.

33:00

John, they built themselves

33:03

a theater in Madison, Wisconsin to

33:05

start their careers. Then

33:07

when they moved to LA, they took it apart,

33:09

put it in a truck, drove it to LA

33:11

and rebuilt it in a rehab center. And

33:14

yeah, like a halfway house. And

33:17

then they named their show,

33:21

they performed there, My Nose.

33:24

And the reason is that they knew that

33:26

if they named it My Nose, the theater

33:28

listing in the Los Angeles Times would say

33:31

My Nose runs continuously. Nice.

33:36

Also, one of them had a license

33:38

plate, he drove a Chevy and he

33:40

had a license plate that said Bob's

33:43

MG. And then

33:45

people would drive up next to him

33:47

and shout to him, hey, that's not

33:49

an MG. And he'd say,

33:52

I'm not Bob. And then he'd

33:54

peel out. Anyway,

33:58

they're so funny. And then next. We

34:00

gonna show. Ah, Man just

34:02

to! Oh all time favorites The

34:04

absolute incredible genius Miranda July who

34:07

has a beautiful and hum lae

34:09

or yes. Novel. I

34:11

feel like being super funny as

34:13

an underrated part of Miranda July's

34:16

Juve. Of. But dope

34:18

artists novelist filmmaker Miranda July

34:20

was a a hilarious novel.

34:22

Ah, coming out of all

34:24

fours and then one of

34:26

my favorite pals in all

34:28

of comedy like a total

34:30

friend. hero. Level One Signatories:

34:32

ah yeah, who is. Just

34:34

Just take just. Owns.

34:37

And it's a really. Good

34:39

deep conversation with both of those brilliant

34:41

artist. So yeah, go subscribe to I

34:43

It and don't miss these great episodes

34:45

please! We use our listeners that we

34:48

can get in. If you listen to

34:50

them in you like them, please recommend

34:52

them to somebody. You. Know I say

34:54

about take the time with her. Tip: Top

34:57

Tip Comforting. To.

35:00

Get on with our best. Any

35:02

time you're thinking a good thought

35:04

about taking Tyrone, you're like ah,

35:06

you shouldn't. Major heroes are like

35:08

all those only disappoint me or

35:10

whatever. Not integrals to grow yet.

35:12

No reservations. Ah Ok, let's get

35:14

back to the show. Ceci

35:18

for I believe we have another case

35:20

to hear right? yeah I die we

35:22

do. You do have a question though

35:24

was that I can't help but notice

35:26

the next to our pizza which for

35:28

makes perfect sense of pizza on Stay

35:30

Hobby or any biased reporting. Will.

35:32

Is there a mailbox? there? Are

35:35

you know? I don't know. Ah this is

35:37

your we came in. I presume part

35:39

of the theater thing maybe a union

35:41

thing. I as we can move it

35:43

they said know if it is. So

35:45

I said a thing. As

35:49

the mailbox unfair as I don't

35:51

know why there would be a

35:54

mailbox and states wait a minute.

35:57

hold on a manner I'd

36:01

recognize those minions' shorts anywhere,

36:03

Judge Osman. What are

36:05

you doing? Checking your

36:07

mail? What? Is that

36:09

Rob Thomas from the Capitol Times? It's Rob

36:11

Thomas from The Capitol Times. We

36:21

invited Rob on the show and we asked

36:23

him, Did you bring your minions' shorts? And

36:25

he said, I brought a number of options.

36:29

We went minion shorts. Hello, Madison. So

36:34

Rob writes features for the Capitol Times.

36:37

He wrote a very nice article about us in the

36:39

newspaper, which is very kind of you. Also, we

36:42

mentioned that we ruled against you with extreme

36:44

prejudice earlier in the podcast. And

36:47

here you are again. And you're still wearing those minion shorts. Do

36:49

you still go out and wear them even though I told you

36:51

not to? No, that's why

36:53

I get my mail delivered here, because I'm not allowed

36:55

to go to that, to go out to the mailbox

36:57

at home. Right. And is there

37:00

a thing, such a thing as Madison pizza or

37:02

Wisconsin style pizza? So

37:06

whatever that thing Matt made, that was the

37:08

turducken pizza burger,

37:11

like that is, I almost

37:13

missed my cue because I've been thinking about that thing the

37:15

whole time. My

37:18

second choice would be probably the Mac

37:21

and Cheese pizza at Ian's Pizza. Mac

37:25

and Cheese pizza. No

37:28

sauce, just like cheese and

37:30

bread and cheese and, you know. And

37:33

Mac at some point. And Mac. Okay, good. So

37:36

wait, there's no sauce on the Mac and Cheese pizza? I

37:38

don't think so. And there's layers

37:40

upon layers? No, it's just a lot

37:42

of it. Okay. I love it. You

37:44

know what I was thinking about Chicago style pizza,

37:46

the deep dish pizza? No. I

37:49

was thinking it is proof that in the Midwest

37:51

anything can be turned into a casserole. That's

37:53

true. That's true. Do

37:56

you have a favorite casserole, Rob? Uh...

38:00

Do people put tater tots on top of

38:02

casserole here or no? Oh, heck yeah. Yeah,

38:04

yeah, yeah. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. It's

38:06

okay. You can say hell yeah in front of the

38:09

child. Was that right? Yeah, you just went to the bar. Sorry. How'd

38:13

it go? Thumbs

38:15

up says the child. Yeah. That's

38:18

an important thing to remember, right? Always tip your

38:20

bartenders. And start planting

38:22

those seeds early for... Exactly.

38:26

Always tip your bartenders. Always tater tots your

38:28

casserole. So we do have

38:30

another case to hear, right? We do indeed. And

38:32

that means I'm going to have to go back

38:35

to my chambers, I'm afraid. Yeah, I think it

38:37

is. But Rob, will you stick around and weigh

38:39

in with some Madison-style wisdom? I would love to

38:41

judge other people's choices right now. Wonderful.

38:44

You deserve to. Thank you. I'll

38:46

go away now. Please welcome to

38:48

the stage Joe and Allison.

38:53

Our case, Badgering

38:55

the Witness. Joe

38:57

brings the case against his friend

38:59

Allison. Joe claims to live on

39:02

the east side of Madison. But

39:05

whenever he mentions this, Allison tells

39:07

him and everyone listening that he's

39:09

wrong. She says he lives

39:11

on the north side. Who's

39:15

right? Who's wrong? It's

39:17

the most emotionally intense

39:19

response we've ever gotten. Who's

39:25

right? If only one can

39:27

decide, please rise as Judge John Hodgman

39:29

enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure

39:31

cultural reference. Well,

39:38

the smart money's on Harlem, and

39:41

the moon is in the street, and

39:43

the shallow boys are breaking all

39:46

the laws. And

39:48

you're east of east side Madison, and

39:51

the wind is making speeches, and

39:54

the rain sounds like a round

39:56

of applause. See,

40:00

there's always a second part. This

40:03

invisible fiancé is in the

40:05

mirror, and the band

40:07

is going home. It's raining

40:10

hammers, it's raining nails. It's

40:12

true there's nothing left for him

40:15

down here. And

40:18

it's time, time, time. And

40:23

it's time, time, time.

40:26

Don't touch me in these

40:28

circumstances. It's time, time, time

40:31

that you love. And

40:35

it's time, time.

40:38

Let's go, let's go. So let's

40:41

get the corn please, swear them in. What

40:50

do you think Tom weighs eight when he was 17

40:53

that caused this? As

40:55

he probably took $20 to the barn, said I'll

40:57

see you in 12 years. Joe,

41:00

Alison, please rise, raise your right hands. Do you

41:02

swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and

41:04

nothing but the truth, so help you God or

41:06

whatever? I do. I do. Do

41:09

you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's

41:11

ruling despite the fact that it will probably

41:13

only encourage him to do that in every

41:15

other city on our entire court? Yes.

41:20

Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. It's truly one of my

41:23

favorite songs, and I did not do it justice, but

41:25

in any case. Joe and Alison, you may be

41:27

seated for immediate summary judgment. One of your favorites, can

41:29

I either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced? As

41:31

I enter the courtroom, it's probably going to be pretty easy.

41:34

Alison, you guess

41:36

first. Okay. I'm

41:38

going to guess a Tom weighs

41:40

cover of the

41:43

second verse of the

41:45

theme song to the Jeffersons. I'm

41:57

really searching hard for the lyrics to that song.

42:00

Moving on up to

42:02

the side To the

42:04

side To a

42:07

gee-la-fuss But that's the chorus, not the verse.

42:09

I was trying to think of the verses.

42:11

I think Joe might get this one because

42:13

he stole Tom Waits' hat. Yeah. Joe's wearing

42:15

a little Fortnite hat. Can

42:18

you guess? If it was the

42:20

last one I would have known, because that song was on my

42:22

daughter's like bedtime playlist. Really? Yeah.

42:25

So what are you trying to do to her?

42:30

Your daughter's bedtime playlist. Since birth, yeah.

42:32

Oh, wow. He's bally. You were concerned

42:34

she'd grow up to live somewhere other

42:36

than a flop house? She

42:41

loves the low growly voice. Yeah.

42:43

Yeah. So I'm going to take

42:45

another song from her playlist that I'm sure you've

42:47

previewed. So I'm going to say Bob Dylan, Froggy

42:49

Went to Courten. Bob Dylan, Froggy

42:52

Went to Courten. Yeah. Remember

42:55

how we were saying they're all Tom Waits songs? On

42:59

the tour? You

43:01

want to give another guess or is that? All right, it's fine.

43:03

All guesses are wrong. Guess

43:06

what it was called? Time. Time

43:09

by Tom Waits on the Rain Dogs

43:11

album. My favorite Tom

43:13

Waits song. And I mean it, Jesse. But

43:15

alas, now we must hear your case. So

43:17

who seeks justice in my fake court? I

43:20

do. And you are Joe, is that right? That's

43:23

correct. Now Joe, you say that you live

43:25

in East Madison. Actually,

43:27

I say I live on the east side of my court. You

43:29

know what? I don't care. Because

43:33

I want to know about your Mitsubishi Delica.

43:37

Because I heard a little rumor. You

43:39

know, this is called the Van Freaks Roadshow. We

43:41

named the tour after our Jesse and

43:43

my mutual love for the Antiques Roadshow

43:46

and the Mitsubishi Delica Japanese Market

43:48

Only Adventure van. Which

43:50

is a very cool car. And I heard

43:52

it on fairly good authority that you have one and

43:54

you may have driven it here. Yeah, sitting

43:57

on that. It's sitting out back. Do we have a

43:59

photo? it? Oh,

44:03

wow. So

44:06

Allison, obviously I'm incredibly

44:08

biased to Joe. He's got Tom Waits

44:11

on his daughter's playlist. Even

44:13

though your guess and joke was really, really

44:15

good, he brought a Delica to the show.

44:17

He brought a Delica to the

44:20

podcast fight, right? That's pretty heavy duty. Why

44:23

is he wrong? You

44:25

got to really convince me. Why is he wrong when

44:28

he says he's from the east side of Madison? Because

44:31

he's from the north side of Madison.

44:33

What's the difference? What are we talking

44:35

about? What makes Joe's neighborhood north

44:38

side rather than east side? So

44:40

as you stated earlier, Madison is an

44:42

Isthmus. Yes. Yes. We have

44:44

a lake to the north, a lake to

44:46

the south, and central Madison is right in

44:48

between. Yes. Let's take a look at a map. For

44:51

those of you who may not live here, that's a really

44:53

nice map. That's a cool Isthmus. I can really see the

44:56

two lakes there. Yes.

44:58

And if you notice the red

45:00

dot to the northern part of

45:02

the map, that would be

45:05

where Joe's house is. Oh good. Let's dot them.

45:09

Can we get cross streets up there? Yes.

45:12

I made an incense that shows

45:14

one block from his house is

45:16

North Street. Oh. Is

45:19

that the traditional demarcation line of north

45:22

side? So to give

45:25

a little description, Madison is an

45:27

Isthmus, like I said.

45:29

It is bisected by Washington

45:31

Avenue. And once you are out

45:34

of central Madison, if you are north

45:36

of Washington Avenue, you

45:38

live on the north side. Obviously,

45:48

there's a lot of high judging here around

45:50

this. What am I missing?

45:52

What is the cultural context

45:54

of north side versus east side? This

45:57

is the most Madison case I've ever heard of in my life.

46:00

entire life. In

46:04

Madison you can drive 10 minutes

46:06

to another part of town and yet people

46:09

are so tribal about whether they're from the

46:11

north side or from the east

46:13

side and don't get me started on the west

46:15

siders. So

46:18

it is very important for you

46:20

to know where

46:22

you're from and where you know. What

46:25

is the connotation of the east side?

46:27

Is that a cool neighborhood? Is that

46:29

a east side? Like

46:32

you said, the kind of place where like

46:34

people, like guys would have beards and glasses

46:36

and cool little hats and little short sleeve

46:38

shirts and they put Tom Waits on their

46:41

dog play list kind of place. That's more

46:43

north side I think. Oh, interesting. East

46:46

side is more... if

46:48

you find an aging hippie in Madison he has

46:50

an east side address for sure. Oh,

46:53

alright. Yeah. Interesting. How do you... Allison,

46:55

does that describe it would you say?

46:57

Well, I feel like the east side

46:59

does have a reputation for being progressive.

47:02

It's kind of a hip area

47:04

I would say. And

47:06

what does the north side have a reputation for? I love

47:09

the north side. I don't know if the

47:11

north side has an... As long as Joe

47:13

stays there, you love the north side. The

47:15

north side is lucky to have Joe. Joe is

47:17

a wonderful human being who lives on the north

47:19

side. They are lucky to have him. The

47:22

north side is up and coming. It's great. It has

47:24

a lot of new restaurants. It's lovely.

47:28

Come on. You're trying to consign him

47:30

to this place. Why

47:32

is it important that Joe recognize he's not on

47:34

the east side? Does north side

47:36

have a character of its own aside from up

47:38

and coming and lovely and the place where Joe

47:40

lives? Joe, do you

47:42

want to share? Joe, tell me

47:44

why it's important to you at least theoretically

47:47

to live on the east side. I

47:49

mean, the name of my neighborhood is Emerson

47:51

East. So

47:55

I mean, I just go

47:57

by what I'm told my neighborhood is. So

48:01

it's a vibe for sure. Okay,

48:03

go on, tell me about the

48:05

vibe. Lots of dogs, neighborhood cats.

48:10

So just the presence of pets.

48:13

But a lot of pets. Excessive

48:16

amount of pets. Would you agree that, Allison,

48:18

where do you live? On

48:20

the near east side. Hold on, John. I

48:24

got to dive into this pet thing. Okay. I'll

48:28

give you pepperoni. I got to tell you, Joe, a

48:31

lot of dogs, a lot of cats is not

48:33

a vibe. A vibe is a

48:35

lot of iguanas on guys' shoulders. Now

48:39

you just said that you were on the near east

48:41

side, and some people went bananas. How

48:44

many east sides are there? There's

48:47

the near east side. There's the far east side. There's

48:50

the sub east side. There's the little

48:52

east side. No?

48:55

You got near east and you got east. You got near east

48:57

and you got east. What's the difference between those two? Near

49:00

east is still really on isthmus proper.

49:02

So closer to downtown. Both of these

49:04

neighborhoods are off isthmus. Oh no,

49:06

I'm on the isthmus. You're on the isthmus because near east,

49:09

I can't say this word anymore because I just ate a

49:11

piece of pizza by accident. I'm

49:13

just 10 blocks away from where we are

49:15

now. You're just 10, okay, where are we

49:17

now? We're central. We're right downtown. Central, okay,

49:19

got it. Joe, you mentioned that

49:21

there are cats and dogs where

49:25

you live, thus making it the east side. There's

49:29

more, there's more. I

49:32

can give you more. I do believe that

49:34

we have some pet related evidence that

49:36

was sent in just for funsies. Hold up,

49:38

for real? Yes, for real. You

49:41

may have to get to the foot of the stage to be able

49:44

to see it properly. Tell us about the

49:46

pet we are about to see. This

49:48

is my cat, Roger, who lives on the

49:50

near east side with me. Oh.

49:53

Oh. Oh.

50:10

Let the record show that Jesse Thorn is

50:12

now sitting in the front row laughing his

50:15

face off and he wants to know what

50:17

is Roger doing. Chilling

50:19

on the near east side. Chilling

50:23

on the near east side. Come back I

50:25

need my bailiff back. This

50:29

is more evidence you live on the near east side. I love

50:31

you buddy cat. Jesse

50:38

I hate to say but I think we need to advance the

50:40

slide or else we won't be able to pay

50:42

attention to anything. He's going like

50:44

oh. He's

50:47

just chilling on the near east. You

50:49

know how Roger does it. Do

50:53

you have a dog or a cat? I

50:55

do. Oh okay. Yeah I have a

50:57

cat. Where's the photo?

51:00

Forget it. That's a real north side

51:02

move Joe. If

51:07

you were east side you would totally be sending

51:09

a slide five weeks in advance. Like

51:11

Allison did. Good job Allison. Allison

51:16

who's lived in Madison longer? You or Joe?

51:19

I have. You have by how long? I

51:22

have lived here since 2001. Oh

51:26

that's very good. And Joe

51:29

are you a native Madisonian? No.

51:31

No. When did you move here? I

51:34

moved here in 2012. Oh

51:36

okay. Still a long time but still pretty north side

51:38

come lately I would say. When

51:42

I keep calling you north side Joe how

51:45

does that make you feel? It infuriates

51:48

me. Go on. Search

51:50

those feelings. I still

51:53

don't understand why any of this matters.

51:55

I understand that neighborhoods matter but I

51:57

don't understand the context of the neighborhoods.

52:00

Only in the east side, when

52:03

after I rake all my leaves to the front

52:05

yard, would my neighbor take my

52:07

leaves from my front yard and dump them in their

52:09

own backyard. That is

52:11

an east side move. And

52:16

you're saying that's happening up there

52:18

on East North Street or wherever you live?

52:20

Yes, yes. All right. Wait,

52:23

what does that mean? Forget

52:26

it, Jesse. It's a north side thing. Right?

52:32

Why are people stealing leaves?

52:35

What kind of weird set tripping is going

52:37

on in Madison, Wisconsin

52:39

that involves leaf theft? Mulch

52:43

is the answer from the crowd. We're

52:46

going to have a good time in mob justice, I can tell. But

52:51

the record shows some people in the crowd yelled

52:53

mulch. Is that the answer? Yes, that's correct. Yes,

52:56

they want that sweet mulch. Yes. No

52:58

mulch is better than the north side mulch. I'm

53:02

sorry, I'm making you so nervous. Your honor. Please.

53:06

You have friends, correct? Colleagues,

53:08

friends, pals? Very good

53:10

friends. Very good friends. And yet,

53:12

despite persists. What

53:14

do your mutual friends say about Joe's claim

53:17

to east side dump? Joe?

53:20

I know what you're going to say, Allison. I

53:22

mean, we could ask Allison's boyfriend.

53:26

All right. Allison's boyfriend. No,

53:29

we don't have him here. What

53:32

would Allison's boyfriend say about it, Joe? I

53:34

mean, in many of our chats, he

53:36

has said, yeah, Joe's clearly on the east side. And

53:40

any other friends? I mean, but obviously,

53:42

Allison's boyfriend is. I was on the

53:44

north side. Who's that? That

53:46

would be my friend, Jory. Okay. Joe,

53:49

did you bring any people to support you? Yes,

53:52

that little one with the glasses right there. Little

53:54

one with the glasses? And

53:56

this human being has a name? Scout. Scout.

54:00

Scout, can you raise your hand just so I

54:02

can see? Okay. Oh,

54:04

Scout, I have a feeling that you're also biased.

54:08

Scout, let me just ask you a question. Do you have Tom Waits

54:10

on your playlist? Yes.

54:13

Okay. Scout, did Joe tell you

54:15

there's gonna be a rumble later? Yeah. It's

54:20

a real North Side story. Yeah. Yeah. Tom

54:25

Waits has a cover of There's a Place for Us, which is great.

54:27

It goes like this. No, no, no, no,

54:29

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

54:31

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

54:35

Peace and quiet, away they

54:38

go. I got a ride in a

54:41

minivan with this guy. Yeah, that's right. We're gonna get out

54:43

in that Delica later and I'm gonna sing some sweet songs

54:45

to you. Joe, what do you have against

54:47

the North Side? Why can't you just say I live in the

54:50

North Side? I don't have

54:52

anything against the North Side. I just don't go there.

54:54

Okay. Rob, help me out here. Is

54:57

this a clear cut case or not? You

55:00

heard the streets they're talking about. East

55:02

Northwest Avenue, Southeast, Near East

55:05

Boulevard or whatever. I don't get it.

55:07

I mean, this is clearly to me

55:10

a cultural dispute masquerading as a geographical

55:12

dispute. Describe the cultural difference. What are

55:14

the cultural stakes? Well,

55:18

the East Side would be sort

55:21

of a progressive hippie culture. And

55:24

historically progressive hippie. Yeah, it was like the

55:26

work where it happened. Yes. Right.

55:30

And then the West... A sort of mulching

55:32

community. Yeah, yeah, that's right. It's a mulch

55:34

forward community. While

55:37

the West Side was like where all the

55:39

university professors were leaving. So also progressive but

55:42

much more money over there. Sure. Right.

55:45

And as Brandenburg can share to liberals. There you go. Yeah.

55:48

And then the North Side is a fairly

55:50

new, I mean, the Oscar Meyer plant, the

55:52

former Oscar Meyer plant. Right. And

55:56

it's a very working class neighborhood. Right. Because

55:58

Oscar Meyer was headquartered here for more... than

56:00

50 here. Correct. Making non-sandwich hot

56:05

dogs. Let's not start. Okay. Whoa, you want

56:08

to take a beef with my hot dog?

56:10

No, no, no, no. For your

56:12

sake, I didn't want to get pulled into that. I

56:15

can take care of myself. I'm

56:20

from Park Slope. You know I can

56:22

take care of myself. Is that

56:25

East or West Park Slope? South Slope.

56:27

Okay. Yeah. The real Slope.

56:29

And then,

56:32

yeah, North is now becoming kind of

56:34

a hip, cool new neighborhood with lots

56:36

of new great restaurants. North Street is a

56:38

great place. It sounds like exactly the kind

56:41

of place a wonderful poser like Joe would

56:43

want to live. Why

56:46

do you think he's reaching over to the

56:48

East side? I don't know. That's what surprises

56:50

me. Do you think based on Joe's home's

56:52

position on the map, which we revealed

56:55

to the entire audience, that

56:59

he is empirically in one neighborhood

57:01

or the other, or is he in a

57:04

twilight zone between them? I think he's in

57:06

the DMZ between North and East. Joe,

57:10

why is this important

57:12

to you? Why do you

57:14

care so much about which neighborhood you

57:17

live in? Because I get the feeling

57:19

it's not just geography. No.

57:21

I mean, for example, there's

57:24

a co-op, Willie Street North and

57:26

Willie Street East. I go

57:28

to the East side, Willie Street co-op. Yes.

57:30

I understand that you have all kinds of

57:32

arguments for why you live in the East

57:35

side. My bailiff asked the probing question, why

57:37

do you care? So that

57:39

way people know where I'm from. Why

57:42

do you want people to know where you're from? Because

57:44

they ask and I say, where are you from?

57:46

There's a great Vince Staples

57:49

song called North North. It's

57:52

about how he's from North Long Beach.

57:55

Now, when he says he's from North

57:57

Long Beach, he's not just trying to get

57:59

out of the way. trying to do geographic

58:01

clarification. There

58:03

is deep emotional meaning to the fact

58:06

that he is from North Long Beach.

58:08

And if someone suggested that he was

58:10

from the city of commerce, not

58:12

all that far away, he'd

58:14

be pretty upset. So why

58:17

is it that you want to

58:19

be so clear about this? You

58:23

can't tell me that it's so that people don't get lost on

58:25

the way to your house or whatever. No,

58:29

I mean, the Leafs are just

58:31

an example, but there's chickens, there's just all

58:34

sorts of like eat-by things. That's the answer,

58:36

Jesse, there's chickens. There's

58:38

eat-by things like chickens and cats and dogs. Let's

58:43

try this another angle, Jesse. Yeah, thank you. Allison,

58:46

why is it... You're friends with Joe.

58:48

Yeah. Good friends.

58:51

Yeah. You like him. Yeah. Why

58:53

is it so important for you to keep him out of your precious East

58:56

Side and to gate keep

58:58

this neighborhood so hard? Maybe

59:01

because it kicks him off when I say he's from

59:03

the North Side.

59:05

Wow. Maybe because

59:08

it annoys him. Is

59:11

the East Side moving? Is it like

59:13

pizza, a state of mind? Yes.

59:15

Yes, it is. Is it creeping to

59:17

the North Side? Is the

59:19

East Side ethos creeping to the North? Yes.

59:22

Is Joe taking that with him and

59:25

destroying what was the North Side and

59:27

replacing it with Joe and

59:29

the East? No, I said the North

59:31

Side is lucky to have Joe, and I believe that.

59:35

All right. Madisonians, this

59:38

is not going to affect my decision, but you have been

59:41

trying to yell your opinions at me for a while. We're

59:45

going to do this by... Yelling.

59:49

Yelling. Thank

59:52

you. Those of you, don't do it yet. I'm

59:54

going to point at you. If

59:57

you believe that Joe lives on

59:59

the East Side... yell East when I

1:00:01

point at you. Gee!

1:00:03

Well done. If

1:00:07

you believe that Joe lives on the North side, yell

1:00:10

North when I point at you. No! 50-50.

1:00:15

I mean, I think that was down to the person.

1:00:17

That was 50-50. I'm sure you'll all

1:00:19

explain it to me later, but I think I've heard everything I need to

1:00:21

in order to make my decision. I'll

1:00:23

be back in a moment to give

1:00:26

you my verdict. Please rise as Judge

1:00:28

John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Oh! Joe,

1:00:37

how are you feeling about your chances? I'm

1:00:41

feeling pretty good. I'm feeling confident. Why's

1:00:43

that? You seem like you're talking yourself into that.

1:00:48

Because there's only one truey this side, and that's where I

1:00:50

live. I just can't think of it any other way. I'm

1:00:53

trying to help you. She

1:00:57

just wants your mulch, Joe. Allison,

1:01:05

how are you feeling about your chances? Very,

1:01:08

very confident. Is that

1:01:10

just because it's been revealed this

1:01:12

evening that Judge John Hodgman is

1:01:15

a compulsive friend-anoyer? Yes.

1:01:21

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the

1:01:23

courtroom and presents his verdict. It

1:01:34

says here that if I were to rule in your favor, Joe,

1:01:36

that not only do I rule that you are in the East

1:01:39

Side, but Allison has to introduce you as Joe

1:01:41

from the East Side. Yes, that's

1:01:44

correct. AKA East

1:01:46

Side Joe. I'll

1:01:49

take it. AKA Joe East. I'll take

1:01:51

it. Yeah, AKA Too Much Mulch Joe. Don't

1:01:55

be fooled by the money that I've got. I'm

1:01:57

still Joe from the block. The

1:02:00

east side block, exactly. And, Allison,

1:02:02

you want me to rule that he lives on the

1:02:04

north side. One of the

1:02:06

things that I think is complicated is that I don't

1:02:09

even know what the hell you're talking about. You

1:02:13

know, and unfortunately, I put this on both of

1:02:15

you. Now maybe the issues are

1:02:17

a little too complex or inflammatory to really go into

1:02:19

the depths of why the east side is the east

1:02:21

side, the north side is the north side, and I

1:02:23

respect that. We're a podcast, we're here

1:02:26

in the middle of the afternoon on a Saturday. Nor

1:02:29

were you able to effectively argue

1:02:32

why it was emotionally important to

1:02:34

you to associate with

1:02:36

the neighborhood that your friend Allison lives in.

1:02:39

And I guess other members of your friend group

1:02:41

too, that you might feel

1:02:43

like the outlier, perhaps. The

1:02:45

one that they don't fully accept because

1:02:48

of your address that we saw printed

1:02:50

on a screen for everybody. I

1:02:54

mean, that's a powerful emotional argument that

1:02:56

you could have made but chose not

1:02:59

to. Instead, you said there are chickens

1:03:01

there. Which

1:03:03

is probably meaningful to a Madisonian.

1:03:06

I mean, yeah, chickens are probably a real east

1:03:09

side thing. But to

1:03:11

me, your judge, John Hodgman, it means nothing.

1:03:14

You didn't come prepared to make your argument about

1:03:16

why you belong in the east side. Or

1:03:18

Allison, did you come prepared to make an

1:03:20

argument about why you should be so cruel

1:03:23

as to keep your friend's arm's

1:03:26

length or side's length away from you?

1:03:29

So all I am left with, unfortunately, is

1:03:33

the angry wisdom of the mob.

1:03:36

I went to the crowd and I asked them

1:03:38

their opinion. And I truly felt, I mean, Jesse,

1:03:40

Rob, you heard them yell, did

1:03:43

one, right down the middle, right? Chop,

1:03:45

chop, as they say in Texas Hold'em Poker. Right

1:03:47

down the middle, split. And therefore,

1:03:50

I can only conclude that

1:03:52

the wisest decision is

1:03:55

that, Joe, I don't know

1:03:57

where you live. But

1:04:00

it is absolutely Joe Town,

1:04:02

Wisconsin. Now

1:04:05

you define your own neighborhood that

1:04:08

is neither east nor west

1:04:10

nor north, north south, north central,

1:04:12

nor prime isthmus or whatever the

1:04:14

various neighborhoods are here. You

1:04:17

live in Mulchville, Madison.

1:04:22

And I'm going to call you not Eastside

1:04:24

Joe but Mulchy Joe from now on. and

1:04:35

Joe Stronheim from the Joe Stronheim

1:04:37

podcast. And thanks to

1:04:39

you too Rob Thomas. Rob, if

1:04:41

people want to read more of your work, including

1:04:44

but not limited to your delightful interview with Jesse

1:04:46

Thorne and John Hodgeburn, where can they go? Please

1:04:49

go to captimes.com and

1:04:52

thank you for putting up with

1:04:54

this. I had the best time. And

1:04:56

support local journalism. Definitely. Hey.

1:04:59

Yeah. Thank you, Rob. That's

1:05:10

it for this episode of the Judge John Hodgman

1:05:12

podcast. Our thanks to Reddit users MissFortunateMachine

1:05:14

and Funny Film Fan for

1:05:16

naming the case in this

1:05:18

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1:05:20

us on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman and

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1:05:25

at Judge John Hodgman

1:05:27

Pod. And may I

1:05:29

say thank you to Good God Lizzie Lemon

1:05:31

over there on Apple Podcast. Give us a

1:05:33

five star rating. Let's pronounce Good God Lizzie

1:05:35

Lemon. Excuse me, you're absolutely right. Good

1:05:38

God Lizzie Lemon. Over there on

1:05:40

Apple Podcast, they give us a five

1:05:42

star rating and said, quote, as

1:05:44

a criminal defense attorney. Wow.

1:05:48

The judges are delightful to listen to the

1:05:50

judge. You can't disputes fairly compassionately. And in

1:05:52

accordance with the court's precedent, even silly disputes

1:05:55

often involve finding the crux that implicates

1:05:57

how we all treat each other, gender

1:05:59

roles, autonomy and other important considerations, there

1:06:02

is genuine wisdom here." End quote.

1:06:04

Thank you very much. Good God,

1:06:06

Lizzie Lemon. Esquire. And if

1:06:08

you're listening to us on Apple Podcasts, why don't you give us a

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There's lots of great ways. You know what? I

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what's that? You'll say, well, wait until you

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1:06:46

has five specific properties he needs to own.

1:06:50

And by the way, if you're at a cocktail

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party, why didn't you invite me? I like a

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cocktail party. Yeah. Invite me to an it's

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it party, please. The Judge John

1:06:58

Hodgman podcast created by John Hodgman and

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Jesse Thorne, our touring producer, was Laura

1:07:03

Volk. This episode recorded by Stephen Colon.

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Natty Lopez is our social media manager.

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producer is Jennifer Marmer. I

1:07:12

saw actually that Laura's band

1:07:15

Scout had some new music. There

1:07:17

on Instagram at Scout Out Loud.

1:07:20

S-K-O-U-T, Out

1:07:22

Loud. Really

1:07:24

beautiful guitar pop. That's how I

1:07:26

would call it. Like a Fleetwood Mackey vibe. They're

1:07:29

wonderful. Scout. S-K-O-U-T, Scout

1:07:31

Out Loud. Instagram. Check out the

1:07:34

new song In Morning, Scout Out Loud. We'll

1:07:36

talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.