0:01

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Just DAO,

0:03

the podcast for people starting DAOs. I'm Adam Miller, and I'm your host.

0:07

Prior to starting MyDAO, I did consulting for people

0:10

starting and operating DAOs. And now at MyDAO,

0:13

we do legal entities for

0:16

DAOs and Web3 projects. As always, we're recording live,

0:19

so apologies in advance for any technical difficulties.

0:22

We have guest Brian Peets.

0:24

I know him as BPeets. Welcome to the show, Brian.

0:28

Hey, thanks Adam. Thanks for having me on.

0:30

This is going to be fun. Yeah, you got it.

0:33

So as the audience knows, we always do the show in two parts.

0:37

The first part is going to be the JustDAOit news report,

0:40

where we will go through recent DAO news headlines

0:44

and tweets and casts, and you and I will respond to the story.

0:47

So I'll summarize them for us both and for the audience,

0:50

and we'll respond to them. So what's our hot take?

0:53

Do we agree or disagree with the author? What does it say about DAOs,

0:57

the future of DAOs, starting DAOs,

0:59

et cetera? And then in the second half of the show,

1:01

we'll go into our in-depth interview with you, B. Peetz.

1:05

But before we start the news report, still would love a brief intro.

1:09

So could you tell us a little bit about yourself

1:11

and what makes you an authority on DAOs?

1:14

Yeah, brief is not my forte,

1:17

so we'll see if we can pull this off. But so, yeah,

1:23

I have always been interested in technology and

1:27

and how it helps people. Since a young age,

1:30

didn't really know how to put it in those terms. Took me through to

1:35

engineering at one point in time. So I was a mechanical

1:38

engineer for a little while, working on passenger rail equipment,

1:42

trying to help cities procure new light rail or

1:45

commuter rail equipment.

1:50

it was not the place of innovation my engineering

1:52

education in the academic environment um and and out

1:56

there in the rail industry it was kind of like participating in the tail

2:00

end of the industrial revolution and truly

2:03

feeling its end in many ways and that really led me

2:07

to sort of calibrate with what am I up to why am I

2:10

you know doing what I'm doing instead of you know punching this ticket uh at

2:13

the engineering school and then going and working in

2:15

this field and it just It really woke me up,

2:17

especially when this young

2:20

fellow came to work with us.

2:23

And he had been building model railroad trains his entire life.

2:27

He loved going to the rail side and seeing just the trains moving.

2:32

And when I saw that passion,

2:35

I knew that I hadn't found my passion in the rail industry.

2:38

And so this is what led me to high tech. And so I started to be very

2:43

curious about innovation and creation. And I noticed that in the rail industry,

2:47

Not only was it an old technology,

2:49

there were just tons of resistance to innovation in

2:53

North America. The Code of Federal Regulations,

2:56

the airline lobby, there was just a lot stacked against it.

2:59

When I saw what Silicon Valley was doing in terms

3:01

of their playbook for innovation, I was enamored and drank the Kool-Aid.

3:06

But as I started to work in a smart city scale up,

3:11

we were growing rapidly and I was noticing that we lost that.

3:17

It started to feel very much like the places I was

3:20

previously in the rail industry. And this is when I started

3:22

to have this light bulb moment of how we're

3:26

organizing is what's killing the innovation.

3:29

Because I was having these experiences that I was having in these large

3:32

you know, passenger rail or government

3:34

organization procurement programs that I used to be involved in,

3:37

but I'm starting to smell them in the early stage

3:41

startup as a transition into bringing in the managerial hierarchy.

3:45

And this is what got me thinking about humans and

3:49

how we organize and how we collaborate and innovation

3:53

and progression and impact

3:56

and connecting the two together. I was fascinated by this,

3:59

rotated through a ton of different roles, often was pushed into project management,

4:05

product management, executive leadership positions.

4:08

And as I was pushed into them, I also saw the dysfunction

4:10

of my relationship to my peers. We used to work alongside one another.

4:14

and build amazing stuff and all of a sudden they were

4:17

asking me to make decisions and the decision making was

4:19

centralized into me but they had all the context so

4:22

I'd ask them you know what was going on what their

4:25

opinions were and then I'd have to be the ultimate

4:27

decider and it really felt quite dysfunctional and so uh

4:32

As I got more involved as well in considering

4:35

entrepreneurship myself, I started to see the dysfunctions of the capital market,

4:39

even in these innovative Silicon Valley venture

4:42

funded setups and the ways

4:44

in which we coordinated there seemed, you know,

4:48

like something was off. And so I was looking for

4:51

something different. And as I was looking for something different in 2017,

4:54

I stumbled into the Ethereum.org website.

5:00

And I saw these ideas around

5:02

smart contracts for DAOs. And I had also recently read

5:05

Reinventing Organizations by Frederick Leleu.

5:08

which was taking a look at like self-organizing teams

5:11

and holocracies and sociocracies and how they

5:13

were actually applied out there. And there was this,

5:16

this is the moment that I've been on ever since is DAOs.

5:20

DAOs and using this, you know,

5:23

this trustless smart contract to organize teams

5:27

you know, help people organize at scale,

5:30

I could see, you know, sort of the intersection of what was happening in the

5:33

self-organizing organic

5:35

movements that Frederick Leleu was talking about and

5:38

reinventing organizations and what was happening as

5:41

people were working on these blockchain technologies.

5:44

and imagining what was possible and calling that a

5:48

decentralized autonomous organization. And I just haven't stopped

5:52

thinking about it over the last six years. So what makes me an

5:54

authority is that for six years I've just been

5:57

obsessed and immersed. I love immersing myself in a community.

6:01

So first immersing, you know,

6:03

when the infra was being laid by consensus as a part

6:06

of the consensus organization in 2017,

6:08

2018, as they were kind of proto-dowing it. In the 2021 phase,

6:14

immersing myself in Bankless DAO, Citi DAO as a founding citizen,

6:17

Polygon DAO as they were bringing up their grants program,

6:20

and just many others along the way.

6:22

I guess you're saying,

6:25

why are you an authority? Because I played alongside

6:29

those as they were experimenting for years now

6:32

and have been having a lot of fun doing it. Wow.

6:36

Oh, man, that makes me want to do the interview now because

6:39

there's so much stuff I want to ask you about. But we're going to follow

6:41

the usual format and we're going to go do the news first,

6:45

but encourage people to stick around for at least 30,

6:48

40 minutes until we get through the news to hear

6:51

more about BP's background in the space.

6:54

A lot of interesting stuff we could dig into there.

6:58

um and and a lot of stuff you haven't even mentioned

7:00

yet like what you're working on now so we will get to that soon but first

7:03

the just out news report so

7:05

again I will summarize each of these stories for the audience and for the guests

7:10

and then we will share our reactions so the first

7:13

story of the week this is from the royal gazette

7:16

which is a bermuda a newspaper

7:19

And the headline is BDA

7:22

legal committee establishes new doubt.

7:25

The Bermuda Business Development Agency has

7:27

established a working group to investigate law reform

7:30

proposals for the introduction of digital

7:33

governance models. So this is great in two ways, I would say.

7:38

One is that Bermuda is looking at updating their

7:42

laws to reflect and respect DAOs,

7:47

which obviously is the line of work that I'm in,

7:49

most of our listeners know and you know, which is writing laws for DAOs and Web3.

7:54

And they're actually doing it through a DAO,

7:57

which is the second time I've seen this. I mean, they're starting a DAO

8:01

which is I think it's the working group. I would love to know what is

8:05

different about this working group from their

8:08

other working groups such that they're calling it a

8:10

DAO or is it just a DAO in name only and it's really

8:13

just a working group? That is not something I was

8:16

able to find out, but I think it's the second

8:20

or third time I've heard of a country, I think Japan might have done this too,

8:24

where they said we're starting a DAO to look into DAOs.

8:27

Even the United Nations might have done this.

8:30

So anyway, it's exciting to see. I must admit,

8:33

I've seen probably 10 or 15 countries now launch

8:36

working groups to look at DAO-specific legislation,

8:40

and very few have come out on the other side taking any action.

8:43

But I certainly hope Bermuda will be different here.

8:46

What do you think, BP? Well, I think they've got the right approach.

8:51

I hadn't heard about this being the second time.

8:53

So this is news to me of taking the approach of

8:56

being a DAO to investigate DAOs.

8:59

And I think it's the only way. I think that they've got the

9:02

right idea there. And even if they're DAO in name only,

9:06

as many of the DAOs were that I experienced in the 2021 cycle,

9:10

that in itself is its own learning. So, you know, as I said, my intro,

9:14

immersion is the way to learn. And so I think they've got

9:17

the right idea there. And even if it's not

9:19

successful immediately from

9:22

this working group and the subsequent work, the individuals who have

9:25

participated will carry that on. And I think that's the most

9:27

important aspect of it for Bermuda and for the space.

9:32

Yeah, and if you're curious, I just Googled it,

9:34

and I know we talked about this at the time on the show,

9:37

but in December of 2023, so about six,

9:40

seven months ago, the UN, United Nations Internet Governance Forum,

9:45

said it formed a group to initiate a DAO.

9:49

So I guess that's one step before.

9:53

They didn't say we created a DAO. They said we created

9:55

something to create a DAO, but still nice to see

9:59

governments and intergovernmental national governing bodies

10:02

experimenting with dows um

10:05

the next story of the week this one is

10:10

This one is from ZK Sync. Sorry, well, the article is from The Block,

10:15

and I also have the tweet or post up here on X from ZK Nation.

10:20

The headline is, ZK Sync introduces a

10:23

decentralized governance framework called ZK Nation.

10:27

ZK Sync has introduced a new community-driven governance framework.

10:31

It consists of three on-chain bodies, the Token Assembly, the Security Council,

10:35

and the Guardians. And then there's also a

10:38

linked post on X from the ZK Nation,

10:42

which appears to be the main X account for ZK Sync,

10:48

at least for one of the ZK Sync organizations.

10:52

And there's a whole announcement that goes into

10:54

the details on their new governance body.

10:57

Basically, ZK Sync is Dao-ifying, right?

11:00

They're saying, hey, instead of us being in charge,

11:03

we're giving control to this new decentralized organization

11:07

And maybe it's fair to call it a framework because really they have multiple

11:11

organizations in the traditional sense of the word.

11:14

They have these three different bodies, which apparently,

11:17

according to the article, also have their own legal forms.

11:20

So each has its own legal entity and legal form,

11:23

and they all interact collectively to govern the

11:27

ZK-SYNC protocol. So, you know, let me see, BP, it's first.

11:32

Anything you want to dig into here? I think this is exciting.

11:37

I hadn't heard of this news, but I had heard that the ZK drop

11:42

uh had a large proportion of tokens going to the

11:44

community and I think that in itself was already a

11:47

really strong signal following it up with this is really uh powerful when

11:51

coupled to that um I think and I there's some things

11:55

about this that remind me of when optimism was

11:57

pushing their two house um

11:59

model and uh and and trying

12:02

to innovate on how we approach uh dow governance

12:05

and I think that's done a lot of good for us as a group to sort of

12:10

see something different. And so if zk sync is now

12:13

doing a multi party sort of setup has dropped a lot of

12:17

tokens to community and continues to plan to do so

12:21

that allows for them to have the right incentives

12:23

to do the tough work to work on the DAO its

12:26

operations and its governance and not just kind of plow forward and say, Oh,

12:31

we're a DAO like they're willing to work on the DAO

12:34

and they're putting the correct incentives to do it. And so that's a

12:36

exciting. I'm curious to see where this goes.

12:39

Yeah. And one of the things I have to dig into here, you know,

12:44

there's just part of me that reacts to having a well, really,

12:49

there's almost two bodies here with veto power.

12:52

There's the guardians who seem to have overall veto

12:56

power to keep things aligned with the quote

12:59

unquote values of the project. And there's also a security

13:04

council that has the ability to freeze the chain

13:09

if there's a security threat. And at least part of me wants to say, man,

13:14

I mean, one of the cool things about DAOs

13:16

is that you can be completely democratic if you want to.

13:21

You don't have to have a security council. You don't have to have guardians.

13:24

You don't have to have a board. You don't have to have a CEO, stuff like that.

13:28

But I think... increasingly,

13:30

but even since the beginning of DAOs, you do have DAOs that have

13:34

these small groups, I think it's fair to say

13:37

centralized groups, that have some kind of veto power.

13:41

And I'm not necessarily against it. I just think it's

13:43

interesting to note that even with the option of going total

13:50

democracy a lot of organizations are choosing

13:54

something kind of in between and I wonder if

13:57

that's just is that just a temporary band-aid until

14:00

dows figure out how to do direct democracy better are

14:04

we always going to have centralized groups in

14:08

decentralized ecosystems

14:11

what do you think yeah so I

14:13

love this and I i think At the end of the day,

14:16

that's why I'm just celebrating experiments and

14:20

not necessarily infusing my own opinion. And I think it's because

14:22

it's such a complex domain that we kind of need to be

14:25

playing with both, you know. And I remember, you know,

14:28

from a lot of the battles that I was participating in the last cycle,

14:30

there was this dialogue around, you know, how aggressively you

14:33

decentralize versus whether you centralize things into conventions.

14:35

committees, grants committees, these types of centralized

14:39

authorities that may or may not last forever that are

14:42

there to kind of like protect, guard, guardians, security, et cetera.

14:47

These are worthy reasons to perhaps in an early phase

14:50

of experimentation, centralized power. But I do agree with you that

14:55

like this should be something that we're continuing to push towards

15:00

more decentralization when we can have the confidence

15:03

and comfort to do so. And unfortunately,

15:06

it takes people to experiment and risk capture,

15:09

because at the other end of the spectrum is we push decentralization.

15:12

We don't have the right mechanisms, tokenomics, et cetera, in place.

15:16

And and then something beautiful that we wish

15:18

lasted actually gets captured. And so I see this trade off

15:23

and I don't think that there's a perfect answer. And so I'm just enthusiastic

15:27

about people trying something. And I hope that because

15:30

there's a lot of folks who

15:33

are token holders and hopefully that the token

15:35

distribution is strongly decentralized,

15:39

that could at least produce the correct pushback.

15:42

If centralization of power is not actually serving the community,

15:45

then social pressure is just as powerful,

15:48

I think. And we would hope that that's what drives,

15:53

I guess, the transition to something more decentralized over time.

15:57

even though maybe it's starting the way it is. Yeah, for sure.

16:01

I mean, it reminds me even of what's

16:03

happening in purple DAO right now,

16:07

which I think we're both in, right? Are you in purple?

16:10

So for anyone who doesn't know, although I've probably

16:12

talked about it a lot, but purple is a noun-ish

16:14

DAO that drives growth of

16:17

the forecaster ecosystem unofficially,

16:19

not an official forecaster ecosystem. It's not officially the Forcaster DAO,

16:23

but in some ways it is unofficially.

16:26

And we've always actually

16:28

had a veto power vested in one person.

16:34

And actually, so now what we're talking about doing,

16:36

there's a proposal live to decentralize that a bit

16:39

more and elect a security council.

16:42

And so actually moving in the direction of more decentralization.

16:45

But in that direction, scenario I don't know it's

16:49

never really bothered me that we have someone with a

16:52

veto power you know their job is to make sure that we

16:56

generally stay on mission and um I guess it's a

17:02

function that holds in some ways like helps hold the

17:05

dow together at least from a like

17:09

I don't know. I mean, I'm thinking if a third of the people wanted to go work on

17:11

a different mission, they can't, right?

17:13

They're going to get vetoed even if they tried to vote

17:16

in a different direction. We also saw what happens with NounsDAO,

17:21

which maybe to your point shows the power of social

17:23

pressure because when enough of the people who had the actual NFT

17:28

wanted to fork and take their money elsewhere,

17:31

eventually even the security counsel or veto

17:35

person gave in and said, okay, we'll have to just allow you to do it.

17:40

So anyways, interesting to note.

17:43

Yeah, and I think that's when we play with

17:46

those mechanisms of like a

17:50

decentralized smart contract of governance

17:54

having control over centralizing power,

17:57

then that to me, those are more experiments

17:59

that I want to see. I want to see, and I'm wearing my HATS hat

18:03

and I'm a member of the HATS protodow.

18:06

And I like the idea of being

18:09

able to play with having a very decentralized group,

18:13

being able to make those big shifts,

18:17

but moving power functionally into roles that people play.

18:22

And Security Council is a role, and if the community is

18:25

struggling with how that role is being fulfilled,

18:28

that they have the opportunity to do something, whether it's exit,

18:31

fork or change who's wearing the hat,

18:33

there's something about that power living with the

18:37

decentralized community that's important. Yeah, that's a really good point.

18:41

So reflecting back on ZK Nation, if

18:45

this Security Council is elected democratically,

18:49

that would make me feel, I think, much better in my gut about

18:53

the direction this DAO is going versus if it's put

18:56

into place by the founders and can only elect itself,

19:02

then I would feel like maybe that's a little bit

19:04

of a step back in terms of true decentralization.

19:08

Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting because when I think of an L2 and

19:11

I'm like thinking on the spot, but I feel like I should

19:13

give this more consideration that when it

19:16

comes to things like L2B, taking a look at this sort

19:18

of health of an L2, that your ability to exit

19:25

safely and to move your

19:27

liquidity and to sell your token on the open market.

19:30

Like in many ways, these are the things that protect you as a token

19:34

holder or a participant in the ecosystem.

19:37

And I think some of the things that can be concerning is as an L2 is maturing,

19:40

if the exits aren't as clean and permissionless,

19:44

then these types of centralization vectors have

19:47

a lot more power that they're holding. And so the other thing that

19:49

can happen is changing the amount of power they're holding is another way to

19:55

deal with progressively

19:58

decentralizing this, so to speak. Yeah, well, what I'm hearing from you, too,

20:02

is that just having a way out is a form of decentralized power.

20:08

And so even if... I mean,

20:11

I'm even imagining it. Let's say we started DAO

20:13

today for some purpose,

20:15

and power is actually highly concentrated in the hands of a few,

20:19

but anyone can rage quit or

20:21

sell easily anytime. Maybe that's just more

20:25

decentralized than a traditional organization where...

20:29

They have the same centralized power structure,

20:31

but they also hold a lot more power over you as an

20:35

individual and what you get or don't get if you leave.

20:40

Yeah. And I think this is like the interesting thing is it,

20:44

it takes some real rigor to

20:46

take a look at the full complicated and complex

20:50

system that exists. And, and this is why it all feels like an

20:54

experiment because it's like, well, we'll find the things that

20:57

didn't work according to design. And some of the failures

21:01

would be catastrophic and have been right from the very first one,

21:04

the Dow and the Dow itself.

21:07

I think we learn from these and as someone who's in early,

21:11

I like to expect them and

21:15

encourage others to expect them. Yep.

21:17

Yep. Love it. All right. Turning to the next story of the week.

21:21

This one is a post on X from Vitalik.

21:26

And I'll just read part of it.

21:28

Vitalik says, I am feeling quite unhappy

21:31

about this cycle's celebrity experimentation so far.

21:35

Talking about celebrity meme coins that have been coming out,

21:38

including Mother, which I don't... What is Mother?

21:41

Do you know? Is that... that about um is that about

21:44

the political thing no no

21:46

it's I i can't remember the

21:48

famous um uh star who's

21:51

driving it and this is this is how little interest it's

21:54

like it goes yeah famous

21:58

star created token um mother's the token and uh there is

22:04

Yeah, what I'm getting from Vitalik and his

22:07

commentary was that celebrities do this.

22:09

Jenner did one recently. Previous cycles,

22:12

there's been these types of celebrity tokens.

22:15

I think Paris Hilton got in trouble with the SEC for one, if I recall,

22:19

or someone. Actually, one of the Kardashians did.

22:23

So they just use their clout, pump token,

22:26

and it's basically a meme token with a celebrity backing it.

22:29

Um, and adding the firepower of their existing community, which is a, that's,

22:33

that's a, that's a shortcut to starting a meme token really at the end of the day.

22:36

And so, you know, where I listened to

22:39

Vitalik's commentary on this and, uh,

22:42

fully agree with it is sort of the, um,

22:46

relatively lame versions of it we're seeing this cycle.

22:49

And so I think Vitalik was

22:52

close to Mila Kunin's

22:54

action to Kusher when they did Stoner Cats NFT in the last cycle.

22:58

And I am a original mentor

23:00

and holder of the Stoner Cats NFT. And so I loved what was happening there.

23:04

I saw celebrities coming in and trying to do an animated series

23:08

where you got an insider's view.

23:10

They had to deal with the SEC. You know, they were hoping to not,

23:15

you know, create it such that we co-owned

23:18

the creation because they were trying to avoid

23:20

running afoul with the SEC. The SEC ended up ironically

23:23

shutting them down anyways on the project, but they were trying to

23:26

create utility for fans to get an insider experience.

23:29

Their token would unlock. You believe you watch the

23:31

shows as they were coming off the press. You could meet the animators and have like,

23:35

you know, town halls with them. Like, I thought that was really innovative.

23:39

They're using their star power and their domain of

23:43

making shows and movies and their connections into the

23:45

Hollywood engine. And they were combining that

23:48

and opening it up to fans. And they had governance to

23:51

vote on fan participation

23:54

and submissions to the show as it was being written.

23:57

Like if you could just give some equity to the fans,

24:00

that would have been a really, really complete project in terms of fans,

24:04

crowdfunding, lifting up and having return

24:07

in it and instead the SEC shuts it down and we get

24:11

mother where maybe they're

24:13

saying you can buy some merch with your mother token well yeah I think

24:18

that is pretty lame and I agree with Vitalik I'm sorry for the rant but I was so sad

24:22

I love it. It's perfect. Yeah.

24:26

Well, and, and one of the things Vitalik says in the next post in the thread,

24:31

which is why I put this in the Dow news report is one

24:35

of Vitalik's ideas was like, at least, at least do a Dow, you know,

24:39

like at least, at least give some kind of governance rights to these

24:42

token holders so they can decide something together.

24:45

And, and, and I love that because actually

24:47

I think that's, it's, I think virtually any token,

24:52

In my vision of the future, not even that far distant future,

24:56

literally everything has a DAO associated with it.

24:59

I don't know if we'll call it a DAO, but when you buy Oreo cookies,

25:03

you're going to get some Oreo tokens with them.

25:06

It's practically inevitable to me. And those tokens,

25:10

maybe there's an NFT element,

25:12

maybe there's art. Maybe there's a collectible element.

25:15

Maybe there's rewards, a utility. You're also going to get to join the thing,

25:20

whatever it is. And that's pretty much going to be the DAO.

25:22

You join the DAO, and then there's going to be a chat room.

25:25

There's going to be stuff you can vote on. Maybe you get to pick the

25:27

next color for whatever Oreos.

25:31

And I just think everything is going to work that way. Products, communities, geographies,

25:35

everything. And I think the reason for that is like,

25:39

it's not that hard, especially once you're already giving out a token,

25:42

it's pretty much a DAO already. Like the question is just,

25:45

are you the project creator going to create the chat room,

25:50

the token gating, the governance mechanism,

25:53

or is someone from the community gonna do it for you?

25:56

And I think as a founder, that should make you seriously consider,

25:59

okay, on one hand, yes, it's cool that in crypto we

26:02

have the ability to have these like open ecosystems

26:04

where anyone can do anything. So that's powerful.

26:07

And you could argue that's what happened with like

26:10

D-Gen on Farcaster. Because Farcaster didn't launch a token,

26:13

the community did it, and it seems to have worked pretty well.

26:17

But I would think if I was a Farcaster founder and for a year,

26:21

everyone, including me, was like, when token, when token?

26:24

And they were just like, what's the point? There's no need for a token.

26:27

maybe they're regretting that now um either way I

26:30

think clearly like this it's it's this little like

26:33

add-on component you can put onto almost any token

26:36

any project any product any ecosystem is like the doubt

26:40

component and I think it's it's it's a miss I would

26:44

agree it's a miss not to do that for any of these

26:47

celebrity coins too yep

26:50

yeah I think that's the uh The ultimate fan experience

26:55

or community experience is participation. And that's just what a DAO is.

27:00

And all it is is it's tokenized so that it's

27:05

digital and it's on this

27:10

open and composable thing. And I think that's really

27:12

important because that open composable,

27:15

like sure, I could create Oreo token

27:18

and have Oreo app and that's

27:21

really just points on my backend of my Oreo app.

27:26

And we could vote on the next seasonal Oreo design

27:31

or something along those lines. But what's cooler is when,

27:36

uh if you think of the oreo

27:39

is actually a part of a larger you know sort of

27:41

food portfolio um a

27:44

consumer goods portfolio and if I'm able to have

27:47

tokens across multiple goods um and

27:49

cross-pollinate them out there in in uh in various

27:53

loyalty rewards participation programs uh

27:57

or vampire attacking I realize they don't want to

27:59

open themselves up to that but frankly that's the future

28:02

And there's so many benefits to being open that it's

28:05

worth also facing. And not to mention the drama

28:09

and news that you can get from brand when vampire attacks occur.

28:12

Uniswap is just fine, even though SushiSwap went at it.

28:16

And so I think as brands wake up to this,

28:18

yeah, it's all going to be tokens. It's all going to be DAOs

28:21

and it's the most intimate experience ever for people.

28:24

Yep. Yep. By the way, I think mother is Iggy Azalea

28:28

based on a little bit of searching through X. And

28:33

I'd be surprised if she doesn't get in trouble because there's posts of

28:35

her just like with the hashtag mother.

28:39

And then it's just like a video of her. And it's like,

28:42

isn't that don't you have to have some disclaimers or

28:44

something when you do something like that? So I imagine it'll just take time.

28:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah, probably. Now,

28:53

I do think there isn't this interesting like trend in

28:57

crypto that I think these celeb coins are part of,

28:59

which is this idea that, you know,

29:02

a true meme coin might be

29:04

the safest way to avoid the SEC.

29:08

calling your thing a security because the more

29:11

you literally say, there is no reason to give,

29:16

this thing has no value. Do not buy it.

29:18

No value. There's no benefits. There's no community.

29:21

There's no doubt. There's no nothing. Don't buy it.

29:25

Now, maybe you're actually safer in terms

29:27

of the SEC because you're not telling people to make an investment.

29:30

You're not giving them a reason it'll go up. You're not doing anything

29:35

that people can rely on for the success of the investment.

29:38

You're telling them you're not doing anything. So I think it is still kind

29:43

of interesting that maybe it's an area for...

29:47

experimentation, extra experimentation in

29:49

crypto just because it's the farthest thing from

29:52

what the SEC might want to go after. So maybe there's a good

29:56

reason why we have lots of meme coins today.

30:00

I really like that exercise,

30:04

and I think that you're onto something there.

30:08

And in many ways, that's really,

30:11

really sad too, because then the

30:13

introduction is exactly what Vitalik was sort of lamenting.

30:16

The very first experience for some of these new

30:19

retail consumer participants is going to be

30:23

getting rugged in a meme token game and also having

30:27

the experience afterwards that's a really lame game to play.

30:30

I didn't enjoy that game. We can play so much richer

30:34

games with one another using these technologies.

30:40

But yeah, I think that in many ways,

30:43

tinfoil hat on, uh maybe that's exactly uh

30:49

what a repressive uh regime

30:51

that's wanting to shut down or cool or chill crypto

30:54

wants they want nothing but trash to be able to point

30:57

that look at this garbage and the safest thing for

31:00

you to do from a legal standpoint is to do the

31:02

garbage thing like that that's really sad it is

31:06

yeah like just gamble don't don't do any of the real

31:09

value generating stuff Yeah.

31:12

And then you can say that it's nothing but a degenerate gambling

31:15

environment that hurts retail that may be coming

31:17

in slightly naive. Excellent. All the talking points are there.

31:21

Yeah, damn, good point. All right,

31:24

so it's still important to be building real things. Everybody take note, not just meme coins.

31:30

All right, so the next article of the week. This one is from theconversation.com,

31:35

which is not a crypto. It's like a deep,

31:41

looks like philosophical journal. And the headline is,

31:45

why the future of democracy could depend on your group chats.

31:50

Is your social media group a budding democracy or someone's fiefdom?

31:54

All right. So this is an article by the

31:58

author of a book called Governable Spaces.

32:02

which I highly recommend people check out. I read about the first half and I was like,

32:05

all right, I get it, it's enough. But definitely a good book.

32:08

The author's name is Nathan Schneider.

32:11

And the article and the book are about this idea that

32:16

what made democracy so successful in America so far,

32:21

especially the first couple hundred years, as observed actually by

32:25

Alexis de Tocqueville when

32:27

he toured the United States in the early 1830s, was that all over America we

32:32

have democracy, little democracies. Every organization we're

32:36

part of tends to evolve or

32:39

devolve or whatever, turn into a democracy of some kind.

32:43

every club in every high school, every club that families are part of.

32:49

What are the examples that Tocqueville gives? It doesn't say in the article,

32:54

and I don't recall, but he says that he sees

32:57

all over the place, oh, organizations like garden

33:00

clubs in communities are

33:02

like little schools for practicing the general

33:05

theory of association. As members of small democracies,

33:09

people were learning to be citizens of a democratic country.

33:13

And interestingly, if you look at our online

33:15

spaces today before crypto, at least,

33:20

they don't tend to operate that way. Look at Reddit communities,

33:24

look at literally every blog,

33:27

every comment section of every website.

33:29

Either a big company is in charge and gets to decide

33:33

what you can say and can't say and how you use the space.

33:36

Or a moderator is in charge.

33:39

And I guess maybe sometimes there's two or three moderators.

33:42

For example, I haven't been huge into Reddit, although I certainly look at it a lot.

33:47

But the idea is maybe what

33:50

we need is moderators. to turn these online spaces

33:54

into things that are more like little democracies so

33:57

that people can once again practice and experience

34:01

democracy in our entire life.

34:03

From the time we start using cell phones as, I don't know,

34:08

13 year olds plus or minus, we need to be experiencing

34:12

democracy so that we get how it works and we see how

34:16

it connects from even the smallest organization in a

34:19

country all the way up to our national and

34:22

international government. So this book, actually, having read it,

34:26

I wish he talked more about DAOs because to me it was like, oh, wow,

34:30

he's describing exactly what we're doing and

34:33

building in the DAO space. He talks a little bit about them.

34:37

but certainly I think aligned in values that we

34:42

need to make our technology in general and the spaces

34:45

that we spend time in more democratic and less authoritarian.

34:51

Wow. I hadn't read this book. It's been coming up a lot in conversations,

34:56

you know, over on Farcaster. And so when I start to hear

34:58

something multiple times, I know I have to go and pay

35:01

more attention to it. Thank you. In terms of,

35:07

what this is sensing into. It's funny,

35:10

I was listening to this and thinking of my own experiences growing up and

35:13

I too was participating in not-for-profits and clubs

35:17

and I was often on the participant member side and

35:20

inevitably often was curious and attracted to

35:23

volunteering for positions in the board.

35:26

Often as a member representative of an

35:28

orchestra I played in or helping as part of coaches

35:31

association or something along those lines. in a sport that I was playing.

35:35

And what this immediately

35:37

did in my sort of early youth was it brought me to

35:41

Robert's rules of a meeting and how you are

35:44

democratically approving

35:47

what we are doing as a board. and how we run a meeting.

35:51

I mean, obviously there's some weird, you know, dysfunctions to these old

35:54

antiquated ways of doing things, but it was exposure to

35:58

democracy like you're describing and you're so

36:01

right in sort of the way

36:05

that we have experienced our digital lives with, you know,

36:10

more authoritarian setups. And I believe if you have

36:15

that sort of memetic and memetic desires,

36:18

then that becomes comfortable, that becomes known.

36:22

And, you know, you also start to have these

36:24

desires to be the mod, not, you know,

36:26

be somebody who's being a steward for the community

36:29

and collecting the voice of the community and trying to

36:31

vote on behalf of the community. And so there are some interesting sort of

36:36

things that are likely happening behaviorally just

36:38

by not being exposed. And so, yeah,

36:42

I never really thought of DAOs from that perspective.

36:45

And like when we were talking about Oreo points

36:47

and tokens and voting on Oreo stuff,

36:50

like it just, it's giving us that practice.

36:54

It's helping us muscle and it's creating a desire and

36:58

a default that perhaps is a

37:01

really valuable one to have that is being eroded.

37:03

And I had never really thought about it from that angle. Yeah, it's super interesting.

37:08

I mean, I always took part in student councils,

37:12

at least as long as I had them from middle school,

37:14

high school and college.

37:17

And I know it's not something everyone's into,

37:21

but I wonder how many people involved in the DAO

37:24

industry may have a history of student councils, nonprofit boards,

37:30

other forms of like I don't want to call nonprofits practice,

37:34

but maybe all the school stuff is practice and real.

37:37

And, you know,

37:40

it's it's it's interesting

37:42

to see how much overlap there is between people

37:44

working in this space and people who have

37:47

participated in governance throughout their lives.

37:50

Yeah. And maybe it was in video games in terms of guild governance.

37:54

Yeah. In a World of Warcraft guild. Maybe it was, you know, like myself,

38:00

a model UN debate club fan

38:03

or something along those lines. Yeah, good point.

38:06

Oh, that makes me wonder, too, like if my whatever video games I play,

38:10

if the clans I'm in were

38:13

forced to be more democratic. Would that actually,

38:16

would people like that or would that just turn them off and say,

38:19

would they say, I don't want to have to vote? I don't know.

38:22

I could see it going both ways, maybe depending on the scenario.

38:27

I mean, certainly when things go wrong, that's when you want,

38:30

you wish there was a democracy, right? Like when the Klan leader

38:33

goes crazy or disappears or, you know,

38:36

make some decision everyone hates. Yeah.

38:40

Yeah, or when the video game developer

38:43

themselves ends up nerfing

38:46

something on you, which I believe is why

38:49

Vitalik was drawn towards creating Ethereum in the first place.

38:52

And so, yeah, I think these are the types

38:56

of things where, honestly, simplistic games like meme

39:00

tokens or more authoritative models and

39:03

participating them in the form of play, great.

39:06

finite games can be a lot of fun and they're sort of

39:11

good exercise for the mind and, you know,

39:13

experiences. But when the stakes start to

39:15

get higher with something really matters to you and

39:20

losing it all in an authoritative regime,

39:23

if you've had that experience once in your life, even if it was as silly as

39:26

a character that you invested in in a video game

39:30

and it brought you to tears when it was nerfed, like you start to have empathy for, hey,

39:36

when something starts to matter to me and to others,

39:39

perhaps this model is not the best model.

39:43

Yeah. Interesting. All right. We're going to fast forward

39:46

to the last article of the week. And there may be a couple in

39:49

the show notes that we don't cover. And then we'll turn to the interview.

39:52

The last post of the week

39:56

actually is from the Dow's channel on Farcaster,

40:00

where B-Pizza and I both like to spend some time.

40:03

And the post is from Coulter.

40:07

And it's actually a post of their blog post.

40:11

The headline is, is incorporating a doubt

40:14

contradicting its purpose? And the headline of the article,

40:18

which is on UDHC.com,

40:21

is there is no doubt. Okay,

40:25

so this article starts by digging

40:28

into the nuance of the

40:30

terminology of the word, the phrase DAO,

40:34

and that there's a lot of disagreement over what the terms mean.

40:37

Now, interestingly to me, actually, this article focuses on the

40:40

word autonomous. as being where the confusion comes from.

40:44

But I think there's just as much confusion from each of the words,

40:47

decentralized and autonomous. This author points out,

40:52

is it about the organization being autonomous of any

40:58

of other entity or individual, for example,

41:01

or is it about running autonomously on the

41:04

blockchain such that when decisions are made,

41:06

they are implemented autonomously? And I think actually the

41:09

same debate happens over the term decentralized.

41:12

Does it apply to the people

41:14

involved in the organization and is the way they

41:18

govern themselves or the way they operate socially and

41:20

politically decentralized or does it refer to the

41:24

technology that the dow runs on being on

41:26

decentralized technology and maybe it doesn't matter

41:29

if you want to have a centralized team you're

41:31

still running on decentralized technology So both terms in

41:36

decentralized autonomous organization.

41:39

But actually, I think what the rest of the article goes on to talk

41:42

about is some confusion without naming it around

41:44

the term organization. This article goes on to say,

41:48

do DAOs really exist?

41:51

Because... According to the author,

41:55

the nature of DAOs is that they're fluid. People come and go.

42:00

They don't rely on any one person.

42:03

And as a result, and even if you try to,

42:10

let's say for a second, you assume the word

42:13

organization means something,

42:16

like one thing. Does that being one thing

42:20

actually make you not decentralized? and not autonomous.

42:23

And this is a part I want to try to, I guess this is pretty philosophical,

42:27

but I want to take issue with this last point

42:30

because this does come up, I think,

42:32

a lot in conversations I

42:35

have with people about DAOs because it goes from, okay,

42:38

is being one thing, does that already make us

42:41

not really a DAO? And therefore does incorporating, right,

42:46

by forming a legal entity, does that make us not really a DAO?

42:50

Because now we're acknowledging that we are one thing.

42:54

And one thing, you know, necessarily when you draw a

42:57

thing on a piece of paper, it's going to be maybe it's

42:59

in the center or it's going to look like it's in the center because it's the one

43:02

thing on the page. And so that scares people away from,

43:05

you know, hey, well, if there's a center, is it not decentralized?

43:09

You know, I think to me. there is something

43:13

necessarily centralizing about an organization, right?

43:16

The word organization means there is something cohesive,

43:21

something consistent, something collective about

43:25

whatever it is that you're talking about. And maybe that's the mission.

43:30

Maybe it's the budget. Maybe it's the vision.

43:35

It's the product, right?

43:37

Every organization is different. But I think usually by the

43:40

time you're calling yourself an organization, the reason is that you are

43:44

trying to coalesce around something. And you can do that in a

43:48

very decentralized way or not a decentralized way.

43:51

You can do it in a more autonomous or not autonomous way.

43:55

But I don't think that just by virtue of being a thing,

43:59

that necessarily makes you not decentralized,

44:04

or certainly that you can't exist at all.

44:08

Any thoughts on this one, BP? Yeah, I feel like

44:14

sometimes when it comes to

44:17

the term DAO and dissecting decentralized,

44:20

autonomous and organization, honestly,

44:24

it starts to feel a little bit like a religion and

44:27

fundamentalism for me sometimes where it's sort of like, oh,

44:31

you know, you're not truly a DAO or you're

44:33

not truly decentralized or you're not truly autonomous

44:37

if you don't have autonomy from X. And I feel as

44:41

though this kind of reminds me of the

44:44

another movement in the way in which people worked,

44:47

which was the agile movement.

44:50

And so they had this manifesto and the manifesto

44:53

was beautiful because it was basically saying, we want more of this and

44:56

less of that and more of this and less than that.

44:59

And that will be a more

45:02

wonderful way and productive way to code software.

45:06

And so when you come along to DAOs,

45:08

I feel as though It's instructive and helpful

45:12

to think we favor decentralization as much as

45:15

possible over centralization. We favor enhancing autonomy,

45:20

autonomy of the organization and autonomy

45:22

of the individual as much as possible when building.

45:26

And we recognize we are an organization.

45:32

And like you said, that creates friction right

45:34

away if you're trying to be a fundamentalist in terms

45:37

of autonomy or decentralization.

45:39

And I think if you think of it more philosophically,

45:42

like you prompted at the beginning, this might get philosophical.

45:44

Well, think of it more philosophically and

45:48

see it as an experimental space and see it as nested.

45:52

groups. Because if we know as in DAOs,

45:54

we talk about sub DAOs and guilds and project teams and like,

45:58

you know, committees and working groups, et cetera.

46:01

These are all nested within

46:03

this other thing that we were calling the DAO, which are all nested within

46:06

the Ethereum ecosystem of DAOs, which are all nested in the

46:09

global ecosystem of organizations,

46:13

state nations, et cetera, that are, I think the DAO movement is asking,

46:17

try to become more decentralized and give more autonomy to

46:22

as you organize on a global scale.

46:24

And so if you zoom in and start to attack a

46:28

particular cell and not see

46:31

the whole as attempting to

46:33

become more decentralized with this movement and that

46:35

it is a philosophy and a movement, then forest trees, you're missing it,

46:39

in my opinion. Yeah. Well, I love that.

46:42

I mean, and just to take your metaphor regarding agile a little bit farther,

46:46

you know, you probably end up with a lot of arguments over is this

46:50

agile or is it not? Right. But then someone coming at

46:53

it from your perspective would say, look, it doesn't matter.

46:56

Is it are we is it more agile than are we using

47:00

agile as the as the North Star to make decisions?

47:03

Right. And then it doesn't have to

47:05

be agile or not. It's just are we following

47:08

these principles in ways that are useful? Yeah,

47:11

I really struggle with frameworks like scrum.org,

47:14

which are effectively there to tell you that there's only one way to do it and

47:17

sell you consulting hours versus the manifesto is instructive.

47:21

Every time we're having a discussion as a team trying

47:23

to be more agile, ask, is this what the manifesto

47:27

was calling us to be and do? And then have a debate and

47:31

try and experiment. Yep.

47:34

Awesome. All right. Well, that does it for the JustDAOit news

47:36

report. We will do a quick segue here,

47:39

including an ad for MyDAO, the sponsor of the show.

47:42

And then we'll turn to our in-depth interview with B Pete's.

47:46

So for the ad, just a reminder to everyone

47:48

listening that MyDAO, my company, provides legal entity

47:52

solutions for DAOs based out of the Marshall Islands.

47:55

We also have a network of crypto and Web3 and DAO lawyers,

47:59

tax advisors, other professionals all over the world.

48:02

that we're happy to get you connected with and no charge.

48:05

Or if you are a lawyer or another professional

48:09

advisor and would like to be added to our network,

48:11

please reach out about finding more business also

48:14

at no cost through myDAO and about our legal entity options.

48:18

With that out of the way, let's turn to the featured guest interview with Bee Peets.

48:24

You already told us, Brian, a little bit earlier on

48:27

about how you got into Web3. I just want to recap it and

48:31

see if I got this about right before we turn to other questions.

48:34

So you were working, I believe, in the railroad business,

48:38

which turned out to be a little bit too low tech for you.

48:41

And then you were in smart cities where you realized

48:44

in conjunction with your experience in railroads

48:47

that there were problems with bureaucracy and how

48:50

things were governed. And so it sounded like to me,

48:53

you put those two things together, high tech and new forms of governance,

48:57

and ended up finding crypto and DAOs.

49:00

Is that about how you got into Web3 in the first place,

49:03

or did I miss anything? No, that's the basic gist of it, yep.

49:07

Okay, awesome. So let's dig into what

49:10

you're working on right now, because I think there's at

49:12

least three things we can talk about. I think we can talk about at least Hats,

49:17

Sobol, and Tipster. Is that right?

49:20

Yeah, yeah, those are really fun ones. Okay, so where should we start?

49:25

Maybe which one was first in your life?

49:29

Yeah, Sobel was. Sobel started when I joined

49:34

the Consensus Mesh in 2017. It was Sobel.

49:40

What is that? What is the Consensus Mesh?

49:43

Yeah. So back in 2017, during the ICO boom,

49:47

consensus with Joe Lubin's

49:51

leadership and capital was trying to figure out how to

49:54

build all of the apps and infra that Ethereum and the

49:58

Ethereum virtual machine was promising. And so it's the home that

50:04

incubated MetaMask, Infura, Gitcoin.

50:10

and many others. And in many ways,

50:13

because Joe is one of the founders of Ethereum,

50:17

was very close to the idea of decentralization in

50:21

in organizing and in how

50:24

capital moves and decisions around capital,

50:26

not just the technology layer. And so ConsenSys at that

50:30

phase was experimenting with what now we have come

50:33

to call proto DAOs. There was what they called

50:37

the hub and spoke model. And so they had hub services

50:41

and venture spokes that were all being incubated

50:44

and a large global remote first talent

50:49

pool that was effectively capable of moving across

50:51

all of these things. And so there were like marketing services and

50:57

design services and design thinking groups.

51:00

And then there were ventures called the spokes.

51:04

And so the ventures had to

51:06

make decisions regarding capital and runway.

51:10

And initially Joe was making

51:12

those decisions, but the power moved into the mesh itself,

51:17

we would do what was called

51:19

a resource allocation committee. And it was kind of like

51:22

doing jury duty decisions

51:24

around how capital would flow into the various

51:28

spokes and hub services on

51:31

a periodic basis. And so you would rotate in

51:33

and act as a subject matter expert. So I participated sometimes

51:36

as a product and go to market specialist, and then would be there to

51:40

provide feedback to pitches,

51:43

and asks for funding, which is a lot like what

51:46

DAOs do in terms of grants and grant funding and grant

51:48

committees setups. And so that's what they did,

51:50

but they had to do it socially because they were actually building the infra

51:54

that is being used by DAOs

51:57

in the next cycle in 2021. And so it was all a little too early.

52:01

There were identity plays like Uport There were MetaMask and then

52:05

there was Gnosis was in the ecosystem as well of consensus.

52:10

And so, you know, you get multisigs later and

52:13

you know how powerful they are for DAOs. But that wasn't there at

52:18

that point in time. So Sobel was myself and my

52:22

fellow co-founders embedded in that mesh and trying to

52:26

understand how we can help solve some of the

52:29

coordination problems and challenges that were there.

52:31

And the very first one that we were given And we were actually given

52:34

two when we sort of researched and wanted to support this group and build something.

52:39

And one was the information

52:41

is all over the place. And so I can't find what I'm looking for.

52:46

which would be like the it's in notion somewhere or in G

52:49

drive somewhere kind of thing. And it was rapidly evolving.

52:52

And then the other was everything is changing so

52:54

rapidly around here because people are moving in and

52:57

out of different teams or participating in roles on

52:59

multiple ventures or new

53:01

ventures are being created or spokes are shutting down

53:04

and then dispersing people

53:06

back into the broader mesh to find other spots to

53:09

participate and contribute. And that dynamic nature

53:12

at a certain scale was causing a lot of challenge and friction.

53:15

And we got tasked by the

53:18

mesh to go and take a look at that. Can we visualize that?

53:22

Can we stay on top of that? And how might we do so?

53:25

And that's what Sobel was born to do.

53:28

We were born to visualize decentralized, autonomous organizations.

53:31

And as they rapidly evolve, be able to create a clear picture.

53:34

Because one of the things that we missed that was

53:37

there for us in traditional organizations is the org chart.

53:41

The org chart is a wayfinding mechanism. It's an imperfect one

53:44

because it's not actually how work gets done in the organization,

53:47

as per a conversation of Agile previously.

53:51

Uh, the org chart did help us navigate,

53:54

particularly as you're rapidly growing. Um, you know,

53:57

you've got new people coming in and in DAOs,

53:59

we describe this now as the onboarding problem.

54:02

Uh, and so Sobel really wanted to make it easy to see what's going on

54:05

in the DAO and try to find a spot to participate that was, you know,

54:09

bringing you at the intersection of your

54:12

passions and skills and the emerging business needs.

54:14

So we'd model, um, roles, um,

54:17

people and their profiles, teams,

54:20

And we would model goals and

54:23

relationships between goals and people and roles that

54:27

are activating them. And we would model agreements as well was one

54:31

of the objects that came up as we continued investigating this with consensus.

54:35

And so teams would form agreements with one another

54:37

to work together via the services agreement with the marketing

54:41

department to do a rebranding of one of the spokes.

54:44

And so these types of agreements and making them explicit and transparent,

54:48

you start to get a really interesting network graph

54:51

of how the organization is

54:54

changing shape. and the ability to navigate.

54:57

And so that's what Sobel was. And we've been on that for six years.

55:02

We revamped it, connected it to Discord

55:05

roles via Discord bot in

55:09

2021 and started working

55:11

with DAOs and had hundreds of monthly active DAOs,

55:16

thousands of DAOs using Sobol to map their

55:19

organizations and connect it into some of the tools

55:21

that they were using like Discord or Collabland.

55:24

We were a partner in their

55:27

marketplace launch as well. And so Sobol was all about

55:30

visualizing that coordination graph.

55:35

Interesting. OK, so, you know, I was familiar with Sobel

55:39

through BanklessDAO as a

55:41

way of very literally visualizing like the org structure.

55:46

So, you know, there were like circles. Maybe one was a marketing guild.

55:50

One was the Treasury Guild. One was a grants committee.

55:53

And you could see and I could see which ones I was

55:55

in and which ones other people were in. But it sounds like you guys

55:59

have gone a little beyond just that if you're

56:02

integrating things like Discord roles and

56:04

agreements between groups or between members.

56:07

I mean, how do you think about how far does

56:10

Sobel go? By the way, it's Sobel.io if folks are

56:13

looking to check it out. How far does that go in

56:16

terms of just wanting to be

56:18

a visualization layer versus also getting

56:22

involved in the structure of the organization?

56:25

Is Sobel where... these agreements are forms between groups,

56:31

or just visualized? Yeah, so Sokol's philosophy,

56:35

and in many ways, it was way too early.

56:38

But, you know, that's kind of half the fun sometimes as a founder.

56:43

And so Sobel's thought was that,

56:47

because it comes from sort of that 2017,

56:50

2018 era, where there was something back

56:53

then called the fat protocol thesis and the

56:55

idea that a lot was going to be happening at the protocol layer.

56:58

It was going to be open and composable and tokenized

57:01

and visible on chain, et cetera.

57:04

And so we were like, wow, organizations are going to

57:06

get completely on chain and

57:09

there's going to be a need for clients. And so we wanted to build

57:11

the first client. And our hope was that our

57:14

backend would be completely eaten by the protocol layer.

57:18

And then we were waiting and waiting and waiting and had way too much,

57:21

you know, living in this Neo4j graph data model,

57:24

you know, on an Amazon backend. And we just kept waiting and

57:28

waiting and waiting. And we watched the identity space.

57:31

And we would take a look at decentralized identity and

57:34

the way in which it was going to create an open

57:36

protocol of relationships between things via

57:40

verifiable credentials. as we waited for more things

57:43

to go on-chain, you know, like governance,

57:46

except it wasn't. And so we were going to have

57:48

to use APIs to integrate to things like snapshot, et cetera.

57:52

And so that was rather frustrating to not see that

57:56

protocol gap closing as

57:59

fast as we'd hoped, which is part of the reason why I think the other thing

58:02

that we were mentioning, and this is a good point to bring it up,

58:04

is HATS protocol. HATS protocol was the first

58:06

protocol that was structural in nature and on-chain.

58:10

Uh, and, and so we saw hats protocol as

58:13

taking a lot of the roles that were in discord role

58:16

tags and other web two apps, and we're in these sort of

58:19

sequestered centralized backends and, uh,

58:23

and bringing them into an on-chain. primitive that could be

58:26

composed into governance and other smart contract

58:29

based automation to automate the evolution of

58:32

structure and bring it on chain.

58:34

And I was like, wow, that's amazing. The first time I read the

58:37

paper that Spencer and the

58:39

team were putting forward over there, And that was the protocol we

58:42

were waiting for. We wanted to be an ideal partner. And so Sovel's next chapter

58:46

after the 2021 chapter of trying to integrate to Discord, you know,

58:51

Collabland, Gnosis Safe, and then,

58:54

you know, explore the integrations to identity solutions and Snapshot.

58:57

And it's just like, wasn't quite working,

59:00

we went over and we built a HATS client. So we created a HATS client

59:04

that was a code composer where you could compose your HATS tree.

59:08

You could compose it with things like Gnosis Safe or

59:11

Molex Governance. You could click a deploy

59:14

button and do an automated deploy sequence, and you could actually

59:17

interact with that using an LLM. So we were playing with that as well.

59:21

we love this idea that there can be a many client world

59:25

over top of these protocols. And I think this is something that now the

59:27

industry is really starting to marinate into because of Farcaster.

59:32

And so we start to see how Farcaster as a protocol can

59:35

produce lots of social clients or Lens as a

59:37

protocol can produce lots of different Lens and

59:41

Lensster style clients. And we can see

59:45

this now more, you know, visibly.

59:47

And that was the vision of Sobel was like, that's going to happen as

59:50

well for DAO tooling. But it kind of didn't last cycle.

59:54

And so I'd really like to see it in this cycle. So I know we still want to

59:59

talk about tipster too, but let's dig into the DAO

1:00:02

tooling space for a minute because it's interesting to

1:00:04

hear about your disappointment in the

1:00:07

progression of protocols over the course of at least

1:00:11

a few years leading up to a couple of years ago.

1:00:15

And I would say I've maybe

1:00:17

had a similar experience over the past three years

1:00:20

since I got into DAOs for the first time where

1:00:24

Initially, when I got into DAOs, what was really exciting

1:00:28

was all the DAO tooling. We were going from a world

1:00:31

where you had maybe one or two DAO tooling platforms,

1:00:35

maybe like Moloch and DAO Stack,

1:00:37

fairly technical still. Most people still,

1:00:39

if you were launching a DAO, you'd probably be writing your own code,

1:00:42

to a world where you had 10 or 15 DAO tooling platforms.

1:00:48

where you could go and just through a web interface,

1:00:51

configure your DAOs parameters, hit a button to launch

1:00:55

about all the smart contracts. And then that tool would

1:00:58

help you manage the DAO, visualize the DAO, stuff like that.

1:01:02

And initially, when I left my corporate job

1:01:05

just under three years ago, I got into the DAO tooling space.

1:01:08

I was going to build new DAO tools until I came across

1:01:12

the opportunity to run my DAO instead.

1:01:15

which was, it was a total surprise. I mean, I'm not a lawyer,

1:01:18

I'm a tech entrepreneur. I ended up now running this

1:01:20

legal related business. But,

1:01:23

and I think over the past couple of years,

1:01:26

I kind of felt like, okay, like, that's fine that I'm working

1:01:29

on the legal side, it's a good opportunity, there's a real need here,

1:01:33

but I'm glad to know that lots of people are working

1:01:35

on the tooling side, because that's still, we still need to see a lot

1:01:38

of progress there. And now fast forward a few years,

1:01:41

it's not clear to me if we've made enough, at least a lot of progress

1:01:45

on the DAO tooling side, at least when it comes to like the basic,

1:01:48

like configure how you want

1:01:51

your governance to work, what kind of token you want to use,

1:01:55

how you're going to distribute it, and then like do the votes,

1:01:58

the proposals and the votes. I feel like I haven't seen a

1:02:01

lot of progress. If anything, like half of the tools have

1:02:04

disappeared or stagnated and the other half maybe

1:02:08

are relatively stagnant. And then I don't know,

1:02:11

maybe there's just like a few, and now Hatz has been the one of the few,

1:02:15

and then also some progress at Aragon and Dow House.

1:02:19

I'm curious, though, if you agree with my

1:02:21

assessment that there just

1:02:24

hasn't been a lot of progress over the like,

1:02:26

I feel like we're still far from mainstream.

1:02:30

in terms of being ready for mainstream.

1:02:32

Like if I was going to go to my friend who I've been

1:02:35

talking about DAOs with for the past two years, and he says,

1:02:38

so how has it gone? Like, is it time for me to start a DAO for

1:02:43

my local like church group or not?

1:02:46

I'd probably say maybe not.

1:02:48

And I'd feel really bad about that because I wanted

1:02:51

to be ready for that by now. Yeah.

1:02:55

Yeah. And I think it's getting ready.

1:02:58

And I think there were a lot

1:03:01

of people and teams who

1:03:03

tried really hard to build. And I think what really

1:03:06

comes down to is if you look at Ethereum and its evolution,

1:03:13

and the infrastructure, the amount, because I said it as my

1:03:17

beginning of my story was actually amongst those who

1:03:19

were working really hard together to try and bring

1:03:22

up some of the key infrastructure that we now

1:03:24

take for granted and that is flourishing.

1:03:28

And it actually even has diversity now in terms of choice.

1:03:33

Whereas, and that took multiple cycles.

1:03:36

I feel like because of the DAO hack,

1:03:41

we kind of lost a cycle on DAOs in some ways.

1:03:45

And thanks to groups like those who summoned Moloch,

1:03:50

they got us over our DAO PTSD.

1:03:53

And we started to have

1:03:56

something invigorated last cycle.

1:03:58

And so I feel like last cycle was us testing the

1:04:00

gaps in the infrastructure layer and noticing how much

1:04:04

we were relying on kludging Web2 solutions or building

1:04:07

what I call Web 2.5

1:04:09

DAO tooling applications. As a DAO tooling creator,

1:04:12

we created a web 2.5, not, you know,

1:04:15

not a full bore, you know, web three application.

1:04:19

And, you know, as I was calling out and that happened to many, and then, you know,

1:04:24

the cycles do the cycles thing. And unfortunately it dumped

1:04:27

some really good ideas and some really good teams because you have funding come in,

1:04:31

you try something, and if you caught the wrong timing,

1:04:35

you know, it recycles back out. You know,

1:04:37

that intelligence recycles back out, but the team and what they

1:04:41

were attempting to do too early was not conserved.

1:04:44

I'm really grateful that HATS caught the right timing to push through,

1:04:49

and there are many that have continued to build through,

1:04:51

as you highlighted yourself. And I think there was also

1:04:55

another key missing ingredient. DAOs are social,

1:04:59

and the social layer was entirely Web2.

1:05:04

It had a no construct. Yeah.

1:05:06

Like Discord, Telegram, stuff like that.

1:05:09

Exactly. Yeah. Discourse, you know,

1:05:11

the place where we do governance even, which was a little more

1:05:13

purpose built for the pre-governance process, social in nature,

1:05:18

fully web too. Open source software,

1:05:20

which is probably why discourse was chosen.

1:05:22

You can post, et cetera. It's got good properties for

1:05:25

a decentralized community to use, but it has very little knowledge.

1:05:29

of all the other stuff that's going on adjacent to

1:05:32

it that's in the on-chain world. Not to mention the fact that

1:05:35

L2s as well were not full-fledged as DAOs

1:05:39

started up in the last cycle. So we had to find ways around that too.

1:05:43

And so Snapshot, I mentioned it earlier.

1:05:45

I don't mention it disparagingly. I mentioned it as a gift in

1:05:49

the same way that Polygon in the early days is a

1:05:51

sidechain and Gnosis Chain is a sidechain. We're helping.

1:05:54

They were a gift of scaling. NextEye was a gift of scaling.

1:05:58

before scaling had arrived. And so,

1:06:01

DAOs also really needed that kind

1:06:04

of scaling on-chain to be able to do something like Hat.

1:06:06

It would be ridiculous to try and track all your

1:06:09

roles and have smart contract-based automation

1:06:12

around your DAO structure uh, without, um, you know,

1:06:16

that more performant, uh, execution layer.

1:06:18

And so there's a lot of things that I think are

1:06:21

brewing in this cycle that bring me optimism.

1:06:23

One is lens Farcaster have

1:06:26

had an opportunity to do a cycle, um,

1:06:29

and mature. Um, and in the case of Farcaster have some

1:06:32

daily active, uh, user breakout recently as well.

1:06:36

And, uh, And also the L2s have really hit stride.

1:06:42

And Ethereum L1 has been

1:06:44

doing a lot to improve scaling. I think the merge happened last cycle.

1:06:48

DAOs were trying to do stuff pre-merge. If you really steep in this history of it,

1:06:56

I have a lot of empathy for

1:06:59

how we built and why we built the way we did. And I have a lot of

1:07:02

appreciation for groups that tried to glue it all together.

1:07:06

You know, Collabland, Guild XYZ, trying to make sure that

1:07:08

our social space was connected to our wallets

1:07:13

and our on-chain identities.

1:07:16

And so I think there's something magical that can

1:07:19

happen this cycle, and that's why we are

1:07:21

building tipster.bot that you mentioned earlier.

1:07:24

I think Farcasters and Farcaster channels,

1:07:27

that protocol, And some of the clients that

1:07:30

are now being built upon it that are creating an

1:07:32

invitation to communities to come and have an open

1:07:36

social graph layer that's

1:07:38

about how we socialize and follow one another that is

1:07:41

connected to the token layer. uh through the wallet so

1:07:45

they're verified wallets and ens that are connected

1:07:47

and we're starting to see this bigger picture plus

1:07:50

you know the power of um you know cost efficient l2s

1:07:54

um we're we're starting to

1:07:56

see that the right firepower um is there now

1:08:00

to go at dows again and similar to the way in which

1:08:03

malik had to get us over our ptsd of the dow hack

1:08:07

uh with with all of the simplicity and precautions

1:08:10

that the mullet contract had put in place to try and

1:08:12

give us a chance to play with investment dows very

1:08:15

simplified dows to spark the last one um I i really

1:08:19

am excited to uh see how

1:08:21

you know tipping games on these on these social

1:08:24

substrates maybe get us over sort of that trough of

1:08:28

disillusionment that we came into um as dows you

1:08:32

know started being called dows and name only and

1:08:34

treasuries got attacked and communities folded and

1:08:37

The last cycle had its experiments and had its failures.

1:08:42

And I think that a new wave of tooling is right to be

1:08:47

built alongside those who have kept building and

1:08:50

found ways to keep building. And I think new communities

1:08:54

are forming and they're taking the classic pattern

1:08:57

that they always took. It was tweets that sparked

1:09:01

out and now it is posts and casts.

1:09:07

in a decentralized social environment,

1:09:09

which more rapidly can transition into DAO experiments.

1:09:13

And we're already starting to see them over there on Farcaster.

1:09:16

We're already starting to see DAO signals through

1:09:18

these tipping games. That's an early DAO emissions game that's right

1:09:22

up there with the types of things we saw last cycle with Coordinate and frankly,

1:09:25

Cloudland tips. um and tipping bots were a

1:09:28

big thing then too and so yeah redoing it but on the

1:09:32

right substrates this time and I think uh and the and

1:09:35

a web three centric tech stack and I think that's a

1:09:38

really really uh discounted unlock and I think that's

1:09:41

going to be the seeds of the new wave Yeah.

1:09:44

So, so just talk a little bit more about tipster, but, and it's a tipster dot bot.

1:09:48

I've used it. Uh, I think I was one of the first,

1:09:51

first users were using it in the Dow's channel on Farcaster where,

1:09:55

uh, anyone who's been active there has a

1:09:58

allowance. So every day. they can tip up to a

1:10:01

thousand quote unquote DAOs with the dollar sign.

1:10:04

And there's no promise, it's a pure experiment, right?

1:10:07

There's no promise as to what these points might one day mean.

1:10:11

But the assumption is that it'll be a signal that's used one day

1:10:16

if and when and I think the assumption is always when

1:10:18

even if it's a long time from now, we end up needing to put

1:10:23

some kind of structured governance in place because things start to get to to

1:10:27

we start to achieve scale and it's too hard to just

1:10:29

run things manually and or this is not values aligned.

1:10:33

So you know, we're starting to signal this point system.

1:10:38

Anyways, just tell us a little more about Tipster. What's the overall pitch?

1:10:42

How should people think about it and when they

1:10:44

might want to use it for their own communities? Yeah,

1:10:47

so tipster.bot is inspired by what

1:10:50

was happening with Dgen, Hire, and many of the other

1:10:53

tokens that were being token tipping games that

1:10:56

were occurring on Farcaster. So communities would form,

1:10:59

And then they would start to

1:11:01

show that they appreciated the value others were contributing.

1:11:05

So in the case of Dgen, your content on Farcaster,

1:11:08

it will tip you Dgen for great content.

1:11:11

And it was set up so that those who had been there

1:11:14

and embodied the vibe of Farcaster, aka the OG accounts,

1:11:18

were given tipping allowance. And so you have this immediately decentralized

1:11:22

emissions of a proto-token.

1:11:24

Because it wasn't even on-chain. It's like points in the same way,

1:11:27

but unlike points. It wasn't a centralized

1:11:30

authority like a DeFi protocol deciding who gets

1:11:33

points and why. It was the community from

1:11:36

day zero being able to decide. The community that was already there,

1:11:39

the OG posters who knew good content when they saw

1:11:42

it and wanted to tip others and encourage others to

1:11:44

grow the community. And so that's what tokens

1:11:46

are really good at. In this case, it's Prototoken.

1:11:49

And then this produces the opportunity for progressive

1:11:53

airdrops of the actual tokens.

1:11:55

And eventually, you know, Degen becomes an L3 on base

1:12:00

and a token and a whole token ecosystem and has

1:12:03

inspired lots of others to go and do this.

1:12:05

And so tipster.bot comes from that inspiration and

1:12:08

says it's more fun when you democratize this

1:12:11

beyond just those who can develop code and build

1:12:14

their own bot and solution. And because that is a barrier to entry.

1:12:18

So tipster.bot just means that any community can come

1:12:20

together on Firecaster and play a tipping game to

1:12:23

bootstrap their community and signal what they're

1:12:26

finding value and give tipping allowance to those

1:12:29

who have already provided value and thus start to

1:12:33

create a reputational marker, which could be used

1:12:38

in future on-chain games, be it dropping a token and

1:12:41

establishing governance. And I think where I want to

1:12:44

see this go and why tipster.bot and these degen

1:12:48

tipping games were so interesting to me is that

1:12:50

governable spaces thing that we discussed earlier.

1:12:54

We're playing with it, as you mentioned, in the DAOs channel over on Firecaster.

1:12:58

And it's because we're creating a space that may

1:13:01

need communal governance in the future.

1:13:05

But right now it doesn't. but we need to prepare to know who is here,

1:13:11

who helped make this space what it is. And through a tipping game,

1:13:15

we can start to have signal along the way of what was

1:13:18

valued as we as a community grow.

1:13:21

And that gives the opportunity as the affordances come on to

1:13:25

further decentralize uh the governance of a space

1:13:29

like this uh and connect it to you know web3 assets not

1:13:34

unlike the recent uh farcaster channels um uh

1:13:38

protocolization um and decentralization they've

1:13:41

been adding in the ability to have curation auto mod

1:13:44

has been building bots that allow you to create

1:13:48

moderation rule sets, and those can be driven by token rules.

1:13:52

And so you can start to connect the dots to see

1:13:54

that there's an opportunity for, through something like

1:13:58

tipster.bot and tips saying who should be governing

1:14:02

And then there's the opportunity for the space itself and the value it

1:14:05

provides of like curating which posts should show or

1:14:09

be pushed to the top of the fold is a power that is key

1:14:14

in governing that space. And that today is somewhat

1:14:18

centralized often on

1:14:21

forecaster spaces to those who were the channel creators,

1:14:24

AKA the Reddit model thing. So this kind of ties all the

1:14:27

things we've been discussing today together, I think.

1:14:31

And so I'm excited about tipster.bot as the front

1:14:33

edge and these tipping games as the front edge of

1:14:38

preparing for governable spaces. Interesting.

1:14:42

Yeah. What about in terms of what

1:14:45

you're seeing in this space?

1:14:48

So we've mentioned some

1:14:50

tools you're working on that are really exciting, including Hats,

1:14:53

Sobol, Tipster. We mentioned Snapshot.

1:14:57

I mentioned Dow House, which is just the front end for Moloch,

1:15:00

which you mentioned a couple of times. Are there other tools that

1:15:06

are exciting right now to you because you see either

1:15:09

they've come a long way or they're new and exciting or

1:15:12

just that you know that

1:15:14

there are a lot of good people working on or just

1:15:17

enough good people working on the tool and therefore you're excited to see what

1:15:20

they might come out with in the near future?

1:15:22

Yeah, so I've become nounish curious and

1:15:27

I've seen some interesting experiments over the years in nouns.

1:15:30

Um, it's on chain, uh, and, uh,

1:15:33

some of the most recent, uh, noun, um,

1:15:36

experiments that I've found fascinating or now niche

1:15:39

experiments are burbs, um,

1:15:42

and grounds grounds Dow. And it's because they're, they're mixing,

1:15:45

uh, an ERC 20 token with.

1:15:50

Um, the, the nouns NFT, um, governance,

1:15:53

you know, model, um, allowing for a little more granularity.

1:15:56

Um, and so I'm curious, uh,

1:15:59

sort of about that, uh, experiment. And, uh,

1:16:03

I think I'm also really interested in charm verse.

1:16:06

Um, I think, I think charm verse has been

1:16:10

trying to find ways to have web three at the core.

1:16:14

as they're building knowledge-based management

1:16:17

and what I call pre-governance,

1:16:19

that space where you make decisions socially before

1:16:24

you move into on-chain voting and an on-chain

1:16:30

signature of one's comment regarding one's vote.

1:16:33

And so I think having those

1:16:35

kinds of off-chain spaces

1:16:38

They're fascinating to me. And I think Farcaster itself as a protocol,

1:16:42

so not Warpcast the client, but Farcaster the protocol

1:16:46

is massively fascinating to me because,

1:16:49

as I mentioned earlier, one of the biggest friction

1:16:52

points of the previous

1:16:54

cycle was just how much is living in,

1:16:56

you know, sort of Web2 backends.

1:16:59

And what I think Farcaster protocol has done is they

1:17:02

created a clever way to have signed off-chain data,

1:17:07

AKA your messages, your likes, et cetera,

1:17:09

and that you're signing those, and they're cryptographically verifiable,

1:17:14

but they're not on-chain. And I find that really

1:17:17

fascinating because it then does have a relationship to

1:17:20

your on-chain identity, the Farcaster ID,

1:17:23

and your on-chain addresses

1:17:26

that you've run a signed um, you know, signing ceremony of signing,

1:17:30

Hey, I own this address and I'm associating it to this.

1:17:33

Um, and so that, that is something that I

1:17:36

was hoping for last cycle was to see more protocols

1:17:40

that are graphs in nature, um, that show the relationships

1:17:44

between things and bridge the off chain to the, uh,

1:17:47

the off chain to the on-chain world and allow for a richer, um,

1:17:53

very web three, clients to emerge.

1:17:56

And so I think my greatest fascination fascination right now is what

1:18:02

social graph protocols, signed off chain data

1:18:05

solutions and their bridging to on-chain worlds

1:18:08

are possible in this cycle and what relationship will

1:18:12

those have to decentralized

1:18:14

autonomous organizations because they are,

1:18:16

as I mentioned with my experiences in Sobel,

1:18:19

just a graph of relationships between

1:18:21

people and their marketplace interactions as they do work.

1:18:27

together in that marketplace of work. And so that's where I'm

1:18:32

seeing things going and I'm excited to participate building into.

1:18:37

Yeah, is there anything else you'd want to share about your vision for

1:18:39

the future of DAOs? So if you look forward,

1:18:43

maybe a whole cycle, let's say either we're at

1:18:46

the beginning of the bull, but it's got another year or two left,

1:18:49

or maybe we never even hit the bull market and the

1:18:52

next one's not coming for a few years. Either way,

1:18:55

what's your vision for where DAOs are going to be in one, two,

1:18:59

three years, assuming we do have another

1:19:02

bull run in crypto? Yeah, so...

1:19:07

Last cycle, DAOs showed that they are a

1:19:12

reasonable way to invest safely.

1:19:17

So they created investment DAOs. Investment DAOs worked last cycle,

1:19:21

in my opinion, and they continue to work.

1:19:24

And so I feel as though the innovation this cycle is

1:19:29

going to be social DAOs that actually work.

1:19:34

And so I think that we will

1:19:36

have social DAOs where we

1:19:39

will be doing mostly social things like the fans voting

1:19:44

on X and feeling like they're participating in

1:19:47

the story and us progressing towards these

1:19:50

governable spaces. This is so clearly,

1:19:53

I need to check this book because it's so clearly in

1:19:55

the zeitgeist right now. And that I think is what's

1:19:58

happening right now. And I think that this is the,

1:20:02

if I keep zooming out into the future, I think these are the seeds

1:20:06

on which we will have all the key sort of connections,

1:20:12

be it protocols and new clients emerging.

1:20:17

that are entwined so richly

1:20:19

with the social protocols

1:20:22

and the social attributes of things that we will end

1:20:25

up in the following cycle finally capable of doing the

1:20:30

types of organizations we've been dreaming of doing from the beginning, you know, the,

1:20:35

the, the replacing what happens at the

1:20:39

club and not, you know, cooperative,

1:20:43

not-for-profit corporate

1:20:45

enterprise venturing and, You can see that higher stake,

1:20:52

higher value, higher problematic domain if

1:20:55

captured is possible.

1:20:57

And I think there's one piece that I know you're working on,

1:21:00

which is that, sure,

1:21:03

it's important to have these off-chain social

1:21:07

things become more cryptographically verifiable and connected to

1:21:10

the on-chain world. But these two worlds also

1:21:13

need to become more connected to the real world.

1:21:16

and doing the work that you're doing and thinking about how we uh enmesh in a

1:21:20

meaningful and productive way the traditional state

1:21:23

nation and legal systems while they are the um you

1:21:27

know sort of backbone um of how we operate and

1:21:30

enmeshing them in meaningful and productive ways into um this emerging

1:21:34

social um and and on-chain

1:21:36

domain that triad

1:21:39

feels so necessary to pull off that thing in the in

1:21:42

the following cycles and subsequent cycles that that

1:21:45

I'm envisioning which is you know these highly

1:21:48

productive full-scale like

1:21:50

enterprise level you know venture um happening

1:21:54

productively and efficiently on uh on chain

1:22:00

and uh as a dow And that I also,

1:22:04

you can see that at that point in time, if you keep zooming out,

1:22:07

I get excited about a global talent marketplace.

1:22:11

Part of what brought me to this space that I haven't

1:22:14

sort of described is that I

1:22:16

love moving around. Um, I, I have, uh, uh,

1:22:22

I guess later in life I've come to understand in a self-diagnosed way that I

1:22:25

have ADHD and I like to

1:22:27

move around and it's a superpower for me to be in

1:22:30

multiple spaces at once.

1:22:32

And then having that percolate in my being and,

1:22:36

and then applying it in those multiple spaces, um,

1:22:39

and feeding myself and feeding it back out.

1:22:41

And that, that is where I thrive. And I imagine, uh,

1:22:46

what DAOs are setting up when they get to that sort of like,

1:22:51

you know, level that we're describing here, that you end up with a

1:22:54

global talent marketplace, you know,

1:22:58

on the perfect rails for running a marketplace as

1:23:01

shown by DeFi already. And that this fully digital

1:23:07

high liquidity talent marketplace will be available.

1:23:10

And through remote work, which has already happened

1:23:14

in previous cycle, we will be able to plug into that.

1:23:17

And as individuals, that could be a really fulfilling way to

1:23:20

participate in the world.

1:23:23

And that ideally, if we also solve some of

1:23:26

the centralization problems surrounding AI and the data

1:23:31

sovereignty issues, which I think crypto is working on too,

1:23:36

we could start to actually work in fun ways at a DAO level scale

1:23:43

where the relationship that honestly I have sometimes

1:23:46

with the AI that I'm working with in my workflow,

1:23:49

it's bloody fun and it

1:23:51

doesn't feel threatening. It feels exciting as a creator.

1:23:56

But if we can harness this

1:23:58

in ways that don't erode

1:24:03

our ability to participate as humans in a way that

1:24:07

preserves our sovereignty, we could start to bring AI

1:24:10

into DAOs in ways that I can't even dream of yet.

1:24:13

But they would be great at

1:24:15

doing certain jobs that we often today centralize into committees.

1:24:22

like we were discussing earlier, like the security committee, et cetera,

1:24:26

or coordination prompts to

1:24:30

us as humans to participate in spots that match our

1:24:33

skills and passions. Auto GPT plays doubt, for example.

1:24:39

I think that there's an

1:24:41

opportunity for there to be a really fun collaboration

1:24:45

between human agents and AI

1:24:48

agents to build things that

1:24:51

we haven't even dreamed of. And I think that's where

1:24:54

things are headed if we do this right.

1:24:56

And I think there's a lot of things that could go wrong along the way.

1:24:59

And I hope that we learn

1:25:01

those lessons quickly and don't paint ourselves into

1:25:04

a corner where we can't get out from it in a timely manner.

1:25:08

It's by the way, another way the word

1:25:11

autonomous might apply to DAOs is having autonomous agents.

1:25:15

you know, playing roles in our DAOs.

1:25:18

It could end up being a major element of DAOs that

1:25:22

for the first time we have organizations that are

1:25:25

partly or completely AI driven.

1:25:30

Yeah. Yeah.

1:25:32

I think it's going to be a lot of fun. Yeah, for sure.

1:25:36

I think that the future of work is actually the future of play.

1:25:38

When I mean that abundance mentality,

1:25:41

that global talent marketplace that has high

1:25:45

liquidity for opportunity

1:25:48

to participate in and the right value exchange to

1:25:51

meet my needs personally, if that is possible,

1:25:54

that in itself is the best, best setup for the future

1:25:58

of work not to be work anymore. It actually is play.

1:26:01

I get to play with my friends all over the world,

1:26:04

building neat stuff that feels like it has value and impact.

1:26:08

And to do it along with and

1:26:10

play with intelligences that, frankly,

1:26:14

will stretch our own. Yeah, that's awesome.

1:26:18

All right. Well, that's going to be it for today's

1:26:20

episode. BP, if you want to share any closing

1:26:23

thoughts you didn't have a chance to get to, and then let us know where

1:26:26

we can find you and your projects on the web or on social.

1:26:31

Yeah, I think I've shared a lot and feel full.

1:26:36

And I think you can find me,

1:26:39

if any of these topics or

1:26:42

solutions that we've been building at Sobel and

1:26:46

Tipster are interesting. I'm bpetes.eth or bpetes on

1:26:50

pretty much every social platform that you'll find

1:26:53

crypto folks congregating on. And I'd love to chat.

1:26:56

Awesome. Thank you so much. And for those looking for MyDAO or for me,

1:27:02

you can find me on Farcaster at the Thriller

1:27:04

or Twitter slash X. I'm zero X Thriller.

1:27:08

MyDAO is M-I-D-A-O dot org

1:27:11

stands for Marshall Islands DAO or MyDAO DS for

1:27:15

directory services dot eth or on Twitter.

1:27:18

And please consider liking

1:27:20

or leaving a review of the show wherever you are listening.

1:27:23

Obviously, it would appreciate if anyone wants to subscribe.

1:27:26

And just another quick ad for MyDAO before we close,

1:27:29

we do legal entities for DAOs. We have a network of lawyers

1:27:32

and service providers all over the world who are

1:27:35

focused on DAOs and Web3. Happy to get anyone connected with them.

1:27:38

Or if you yourself are a lawyer or professional service provider,

1:27:42

please reach out about being added to our network at no cost.

1:27:46

Again, BP, thank you so much for coming on the show.

1:27:49

Really appreciate it. Thanks for having me, Adam.

1:27:52

I had a lot of fun. You got it. Quick disclaimer,

1:27:55

none of this is ever legal or tax advice.

1:27:58

And finally, for the audience,

1:28:00

are you thinking about starting a DAO? Just DAO it.