0:00

Before we get going. We advise

0:02

listener discretion for justice disrupted

0:05

this podcast, discusses social justice,

0:07

and we'll touch on many areas, including,

0:10

but not exclusive to crime,

0:13

trauma and abuse in

0:15

their various forms. Some

0:17

listeners may find such content

0:19

distressing. In this episode.

0:22

Discussion topics include online bullying,

0:25

racial abuse, and threatening

0:27

behavior specifically against

0:29

women and children. If you're affected

0:31

by anything you hear in this podcast, there

0:33

is a list of websites on

0:36

the community justice Scotland website,

0:38

from which you can seek support

0:41

and or guidance. Thanks for joining

0:43

us. Should we get started? Hello,

0:51

I'm Byron Vincent and welcome to the

0:53

debut episode of justice

0:55

disrupted over the series.

0:58

I'll be chatting to people who have fascinate

1:01

in personal and

1:03

professional insights into issues

1:05

around all aspects of justice

1:07

in all its multitudinous

1:10

flavors. In this episode, I'm

1:12

going to be chatting to Gina Miller, the business

1:14

owner and activist who took the British

1:16

government to court over its authority to implement

1:18

Brexit without approval from parliament.

1:21

This kind of seemed

1:23

to make her as divisive

1:26

a figure as Brexit itself,

1:28

and she became the target for all sorts

1:30

of racist and misogynist hate.

1:33

She's also a mom, a campaigner

1:35

and activist taking on numerous causes,

1:38

including fighting for a more ethical

1:40

and transparent financial sector.

1:42

She's at a fascinating life and we

1:45

explore everything from the impact of parenting

1:48

to political populism. Let's

1:50

face it, everyone in the pat yak

1:52

as a podcast these days. So

1:55

if you think this is an interesting chat, please

1:57

let me know on social media or

1:59

best still like

2:01

share and comment on whatever

2:03

platform you listen to know . Anyway, that's

2:06

enough neediness for me is our chat

2:08

enjoy.

2:14

What's the first thing that pops into your head

2:17

when you hear the word justice

2:19

Frustration, anger, because

2:22

I just think that the system is

2:24

just not delivering justice and it's

2:26

been this slow erosion over

2:29

decades, but too many people being let

2:31

down by the system we need to

2:34

actually dismantle. And remantled the

2:36

justice system always with

2:38

the users of the services in

2:40

mind. Well, with jumped in

2:42

at the deep end, it is a flawed

2:44

System. I guess, where we go from there is

2:46

how do we fix it? In my opinion, we

2:48

need a more person centered approach.

2:50

We need to understand the causes of things

2:53

and focus more on preventative measures

2:55

rather than addressing things. When they're at a crisis

2:57

point, I would

2:58

Agree with that, but I'd go back further than that.

3:00

I like us as a society to ask

3:03

what is our aim in punishment,

3:06

prisons justice, go

3:08

back to the real basics because

3:10

the cost of a society based

3:13

on a system of justice and law that

3:15

is about punishment will never

3:17

actually grow. So I'd go back to the

3:19

real basis of asking what

3:22

is the law for? What is justice for,

3:24

why do

3:25

You think it is that we're so focused

3:28

on a short term short-sighted

3:31

punitive system rather than a system

3:34

that would prevent escalation

3:36

of net negative behavior, escalation of

3:39

antisocial behavior and that kind of thing.

3:41

It's not just in the world of justice. I think

3:43

in all policymaking , we have

3:45

gotten to a place in our society where

3:48

it's about power. And so what

3:50

we've had is successive governments who

3:52

make short term political decisions

3:54

that are playing to the gallery, playing to

3:57

voters. And there's a lack of courage,

3:59

compassion, and actually common

4:02

sense. I think the three CS that are missing

4:04

in our political class actually

4:06

have a ripple effect across all policy

4:08

in all sectors. And the

4:10

justice system has been politicized

4:12

like so many other systems, prisons

4:14

have been politicized. Gang culture

4:17

has been politicized. Re-offending has been

4:19

politicized sentencing,

4:21

and unfortunately we never get

4:23

to the root cause and like many

4:25

other sectors that does have to be

4:28

not just long-term solutions and thinking

4:30

and strategies, but longer term funding.

4:32

You can't have really robust

4:35

since DEMEC policy change. We

4:37

have art investing in it. And

4:39

the thing is that I think is always lost

4:41

when people talk about justice

4:43

and the law is that getting it wrong

4:45

is actually costing us more. And so

4:47

there was a report recently about, you know, judges

4:50

and the recruitment of judges and they don't reflect society.

4:53

And the fact that they are from the same schools and

4:55

the same old boy network. Yes. Well, we know that's

4:57

a problem. The system has to work to

4:59

recruit the right people into it. I

5:01

would actually put law and justice into a

5:03

cross-party box and say

5:05

that we have to agree around the

5:07

table of what 10 years of

5:09

reform looks like, take the politics

5:12

out and put people in centers . You said, sorry

5:14

To interrupt here. I might do a fair bit of this, but

5:16

do you think gene is right? Do we

5:18

live in a culture of self-serving short-termism

5:21

in politics? Sadly, I believe

5:24

there is political currency in

5:26

that sort of cynical, tough

5:28

on crime rhetoric. And I understand why

5:30

who doesn't want to see the bad guys, get the

5:32

comeuppance when someone hurts , or it's

5:34

not an unreasonable instinct to want

5:36

to see that person suffer for their crimes.

5:39

So the idea that if we punish

5:42

a person severely enough, they'll

5:44

behave themselves is appealing to voters

5:46

because it's simple and it plays

5:49

to a binary understanding of right and wrong.

5:51

The problem is that research shows

5:53

that much criminal behavior is

5:56

a direct reaction to trauma. So

5:59

piling trauma on trauma is

6:02

ultimately self-defeating because

6:04

for one of a less cheesy phrase hurt

6:07

people, hurt people. So

6:09

the cycle continues and

6:12

the effects of one person's

6:15

worsened in negative behavior grows ever wider

6:18

permeate in an influence in

6:20

what are often already

6:23

impoverished and culturally

6:25

isolated communities. I know

6:27

nobody really wants to hear it, but I think

6:29

true crime prevention requires

6:33

long-term and holistic solutions that start

6:35

by taking preventative measures in

6:38

early childhood. I'm no academic,

6:40

but what I've read around attachment theory

6:43

and adverse childhood experience

6:46

studies seem to offer

6:48

a fairly clear explanation

6:51

as to the root causes of a

6:53

lot of offending in adult hood. And

6:55

so the idea that people can be bullied

6:57

into better behavior, well, let's just say

6:59

it's unsound and goes against

7:01

an increasing groundswell of

7:04

evidence. And look,

7:07

regardless of that, a justice

7:09

system that doesn't take the context

7:11

of people's lived experience into account

7:14

is innately an

7:16

unjust system and likely

7:18

an ineffective one too . So as

7:20

I said to Gina, if part of the

7:23

justice system, isn't helping

7:25

to heal people then

7:28

behavior and culture

7:30

along with it is only likely

7:33

to worsen. And she had this to

7:35

add not

7:36

Only that, but it also, we pass on

7:38

the ILS to the next generation. So

7:41

it's not as though we are punishing

7:43

one generation, then subsequent

7:45

generations carry the burden of

7:47

that trauma for my experience

7:49

over the , since, well , growing up my father,

7:52

being an attorney general and being very much a socialist

7:54

and a humanist as I am, I think

7:56

we need to start with this political system. And

7:58

unfortunately that's a huge ask because

8:01

the political system is based on

8:04

power now, not putting people or

8:06

the country. First, that whole sentiment

8:08

of getting the best people into politics,

8:10

who will put people first and

8:13

countries' interests and national interests first is

8:15

not where we are in modern politics. And

8:18

you know , it is a difficult situation. And because

8:20

we have a mainly two-party system and,

8:22

you know , we have a default system that's not working in

8:24

my view. We don't have enough federalism

8:27

that I, I think the system needs a

8:29

whole rehaul. And the question

8:31

I always get asked when I'm talking about

8:33

this topic, is that in whose interest

8:36

is it to follow what you were seeing?

8:38

Gina, you know, the reforms you're talking about my

8:40

answer back is that it's

8:42

in the interest of people who want to get into politics

8:45

for the right reasons. If it's all

8:47

about professional politicians and

8:49

power, we're not going to change the system. So

8:53

we have to try and I think we've got to

8:55

place now post COVID where people

8:57

are beginning to wake up to the nuances

9:00

of hurt in our society. And

9:02

that healing is going to take hard work.

9:04

I know it sounds odd, but I think COVID has had a few

9:07

silver linings and one, I think

9:09

is the civic consciousness

9:12

has actually been awoken. Okay.

9:14

So I'm going to interrupt again here with an interesting

9:17

statistic from the auditor general

9:19

and the account's commission in Scotland from 2016,

9:23

2017 in

9:26

Scotland, there are these things

9:28

called community payback orders,

9:30

which might include an offender doing

9:33

unpaid community work, being

9:35

under probationary supervision, offering

9:37

compensation to the victim, restorative

9:40

justice, engaging in educational

9:42

support, engaging in programs around

9:44

drug and alcohol misuse. CPOs

9:47

might include a residential

9:49

geographical and conduct restrictions,

9:51

and they might also offer mental health

9:53

treatments and they cost 1,894

9:59

pounds compared to a staggering

10:02

37,344

10:06

for a prisoner place. Now, obviously,

10:09

if a person is a danger to others,

10:11

then the wider community needs protecting. But

10:14

if they aren't, it would appear

10:16

that there are far more productive,

10:18

rehabilitative and cost

10:21

effective ways for an offender to a tone, make

10:23

restitution and rehabilitate.

10:26

And by the way, I'm not saying that

10:28

community payback orders are perfect

10:30

in their current guys. In fact, 27%

10:34

of people complete in a CPO are

10:36

reconvicted within a year, which

10:38

doesn't sound great until

10:41

you hear that 41%.

10:43

That's two in five, a reconvicted

10:46

within a year of leaving prison.

10:49

And not only that children

10:51

with a parent in prison around

10:53

three times more likely to engage

10:56

in antisocial behavior. So

10:58

again, it's not just the offender themselves

11:00

that we need to look at. It's the ripple

11:02

effects within family and community.

11:05

So I'm sure CPOs aren't perfect,

11:07

but I would bet my life that

11:10

a well-thought-out holistic

11:12

and immersive program of education

11:14

therapy, practical support

11:17

and rehabilitation would be immeasurably

11:19

more effective and obviously

11:23

much cheaper than a custodial

11:25

prison sentence in the vast

11:27

majority of cases anyway, back

11:29

to Gina. And that's the last time I'll interrupt

11:32

her promise.

11:33

Absolutely. And I think for those people who don't

11:35

have the humanitarian boat, and if you like,

11:38

and they have an economic one, then you have to tailor

11:40

the messages to them. So I think we

11:42

have to tailor the messages to those who

11:44

will listen on the subjects that

11:47

they're listening. And it's true. Our

11:49

system is costing our economy,

11:51

a huge amount of money, getting it

11:53

wrong is costing us.

11:55

Can we talk about you for a bit in your book

11:57

rise, you make your childhood in

12:00

Guyana sounds sort of like

12:02

a hyper real simulacrum

12:05

of Britishness, your mom collected Wedgewood

12:08

, uh , and the pictures of the queen

12:10

around the house, the seemed to be this

12:13

idealized perception of the UK.

12:16

And then you came here.

12:18

Yeah . How much of a culture shock was it

12:21

or what was that experience like?

12:22

Ghana is where supposedly Eldorado is.

12:24

Uh , we always thought that the UK was Eldorado

12:27

your parents, you know, dreamt of their kids,

12:29

having a British education, coming to the UK

12:31

and having the opportunity to go to a British university. I mean,

12:33

that was more than gold. That was worth more than anything.

12:36

It was the biggest prize parents

12:38

could give their children. And so I

12:40

grew up, my parents would order

12:42

in books. So I, by the time I came

12:44

to the UK, I'd already read,

12:46

you know , all the Bronte books and all

12:49

the Charles Dickens. And yeah, so I had a very idealistic

12:51

view and listening to the BBC world service

12:53

that my dad used to make us do every single night.

12:56

When I arrived here on the very first

12:58

day, it will stay with me forever driving

13:01

from the airport down to Eastbourne, which

13:03

is where my parents chose this school for me.

13:05

I just kept thinking it's

13:07

just gray. And when I looked at

13:09

people's faces on the street, they weren't happy

13:12

there was this greenness. And that's what

13:14

I remember more than anything was thinking.

13:17

Okay. At some point soon, I'll

13:19

see the Britain I'm expecting, and it didn't

13:22

really happen. Literal

13:24

And metaphorical and emotional

13:27

brain readiness . Your parents

13:29

were obviously a massive influence on you. Um

13:31

, is that where you got your sense of

13:33

social justice?

13:34

Oh, absolutely. I mean, my parents, I was incredibly

13:37

fortunate to be their daughter and

13:39

my father taught me about

13:42

law and justice from a very

13:44

early age. He told me that the law didn't

13:46

live in a book or in a courtroom. It

13:48

was about making people's lives better about

13:51

making sure you dealt with the pain

13:53

that they were going through. He spoke to me

13:55

about people as if they were part

13:57

of our family. He had the most extraordinary

14:00

way of translating very adult

14:02

subjects into a childhood

14:04

understanding. And it's something I try and

14:06

do with my children. And my mother, I think

14:08

was an eco warrior before the term was even

14:10

invented this idea that

14:12

what we have might be gone tomorrow and might be

14:14

us asking for help. So therefore

14:16

you never walk past anybody who needs

14:19

help. And those were very strong

14:21

values and principles that my

14:23

siblings and I were brought up with. And it's

14:26

what I tried to pass on with my children. But it

14:28

means that really, when you're brought up thinking

14:30

that way, it's not hard.

14:32

You don't have to think about helping

14:35

somebody else. It just becomes second nature

14:37

to you.

14:38

You've spoken a bit about our collective

14:40

responsibility. I've read

14:42

your book and your fierce, you know, you , you

14:45

Know about that

14:46

Person, how responsible

14:49

are we as individuals,

14:51

do you think? And in terms of the fight

14:53

for social justice

14:54

In truth, I think we got a little

14:57

bit complacent and a little bit lazy

14:59

in that we thought as a country,

15:01

you know, when this is up until the financial crisis, you

15:04

know, we were doing well, getting more money in our pocket. We

15:06

were buying more things. We were becoming more consumerist.

15:08

Life was good. And we thought we be

15:11

sort of elected politicians

15:13

and we can trust them to get on with it. So we didn't really keep an eye

15:15

on them. And slowly the systems

15:17

that we have in place started eroding. We

15:19

also fell for a lot of the propaganda

15:21

that was basically being pushed out over the last

15:23

sort of two, three decades. And we just

15:25

took our eye off the ball because actually

15:28

we're all responsible for the world we live in. And

15:30

that also very largely goes with the

15:32

environmental challenges we're facing. I

15:34

think the messages , the whole idea that what

15:36

we're hearing now and the changes we're going to have

15:38

to make in our lives, these stories

15:40

have been around for a long time. People have been warning us

15:43

for a long time. We just chose not to listen. Civic

15:45

responsibility has to be something

15:47

we embrace going forwards, corporate

15:49

responsibility. I talk about responsible

15:51

capitalism, but also

15:54

parenting. I go back to your question

15:56

about my parents. It's an incredible

15:58

responsibility. Being a parent and

16:01

shaping the next generation.

16:04

I think we have to be more responsible parents

16:07

as well. We can't just leave it up to educational

16:09

or institutions. We've got to start

16:12

from day one, bringing up responsible

16:14

individuals.

16:15

I suppose it is quite a tough one because not all parents

16:18

have the same skills and resources

16:20

and there is no handbook for it. Is there

16:22

? Well,

16:23

What's really interesting is I think there's something like 167,000

16:27

charities in the United Kingdom. And what always shocks

16:29

me is that I think there's two parenting charities,

16:31

but if you think about it, society has changed. So, you

16:33

know, we have to always all , so look

16:35

at the networks, the family networks and

16:37

the help that we have is we are not that society

16:40

to anymore. So we have to pick up those pieces.

16:42

You know, Mandela said, you judged a society about how

16:44

it treats its children. That's absolutely

16:46

true. And we have not treated and invested

16:49

in our children enough. I'll give you an example. I'm always amazed

16:51

when people talk about education, because we

16:53

know that our skills in

16:56

adults have been reducing over a

16:58

years now. So literacy

17:00

and adult hood is a problem in our country. We

17:02

used to be the top three in the world. Now I think we're about number

17:04

19 or something. So, you know, we have a problem

17:07

and actually we have it in the prison population. Yeah

17:09

. But you've got schools,

17:11

they're close , you've got these buildings

17:13

could bring people together. So why

17:16

are we not running literacy classes?

17:18

You know, learning it in those

17:20

buildings in the evenings for adults.

17:22

It just seems to be such a waste of an

17:24

infrastructure that we've got there that we should

17:26

be investing in. So

17:28

You , uh, taking

17:31

a long gray drive

17:34

from the airport to boarding school

17:37

boarding school, just the concept of it seems

17:39

traumatizing to me. Um , what

17:42

was that experience like and how did it inform

17:45

your growing up?

17:46

I don't know why, but it never crossed

17:48

my mind that my parents were actually going to leave me.

17:50

So I was really excited by whole the concept of being

17:52

there. We packed this big

17:55

trunk. It was amusing to me that I have to

17:57

have my name embroidered in our napkins

17:59

and all this very quaint English

18:01

things or British things. And then the

18:04

said goodbye. They were leaving. And literally

18:08

I felt completely empty.

18:11

I had never been away from my family, for

18:13

my siblings or my parents before that day.

18:17

And looking back, I

18:19

think part of me died then, and

18:22

I remember running to the toilets because I didn't

18:24

want the girls to see me crying. And

18:27

I just wept my heart out into

18:29

a towel so that they wouldn't hear me as

18:32

I came out of the toilet . And I

18:34

remember telling myself, you're

18:37

going to have to be strong now you're

18:39

on your own now. And so from

18:41

that day, I had

18:43

to rely on myself and

18:45

that's a really tough thing to decide at

18:47

such a young age.

18:49

It's an incredibly tough thing

18:51

to decide and profound in

18:54

terms of formative development.

18:56

I would imagine I remember the eighties.

18:58

I remember this as an eighties and

19:01

horrific racism, the

19:03

vocal and ubiquitous and

19:05

, uh , violent racism

19:07

that was around at the time. I was, my friendship group

19:09

was a multiethnic friendship group. I remember being chased

19:11

by skinheads and having bricks thrown up all

19:14

of that kind of stuff. Do you think things

19:16

have changed?

19:18

Well, thanks for change because we don't have programs

19:20

like rising damp anymore. We don't have a , you

19:22

know, the , the humor, we don't have golliwogs

19:24

on marmalade jars, you know that , so

19:26

the overt racism

19:28

has gone. That doesn't mean racism

19:31

has gone. And actually in some ways

19:33

I think the nuanced under the radar

19:35

racism is even more toxic. But

19:37

I think at that point, people thought it was

19:39

a bit of a joke. I know this sounds a very

19:41

odd thing to say, but there was a lot more humor

19:44

around racism then. And

19:46

also I think, do you think the dynamic,

19:49

this also changed is we took it. We

19:51

didn't fight back. We didn't speak up. And

19:54

in a way that made it easier because

19:57

the, you know, when someone fights back the

19:59

level of chaos increases

20:02

and that's where I think we are now as a society

20:04

is those who are suffering from discrimination,

20:07

racism, inequality

20:09

, uh , fighting back and speaking up the day we started

20:11

doing that life got far more complicated.

20:14

One

20:14

Of the things that always strikes me as very

20:16

weird is the media

20:18

are always asking , uh , people of color

20:21

to how best to tackle racism rather

20:23

than asking racists . Why they're racist?

20:26

Do you ever find that kind of focus

20:28

frustrating?

20:29

Oh, it is incredibly frustration because we're basically,

20:32

it's saying it's our problem. You find

20:34

a solution. So that basically the

20:36

starting premise is it's your

20:38

issue . It's your problem, rather than it's society's

20:41

systemic and structural issue.

20:44

Um, so I think that, yeah , the starting point there is

20:46

wrong, but I actually think the language completely

20:48

is wrong because I, I , I try and

20:50

say this whenever I go and talk to schools and colleges

20:52

and young people, is that be mindful

20:55

that if you are so strong in your message,

20:57

other people will think, well, what are they going to lose?

21:00

In my view, you have to talk about equality

21:03

about all of us. I think the minute you actually

21:06

make division in your language and you actually

21:08

compel those divisions, you're actually

21:10

walking straight into the language of those

21:12

who are propaganda Ising division. And,

21:14

you know, as a society, we have those who ideologically

21:17

believe in division because it's dividing

21:19

conquer and they will set us up more

21:21

divided. We are more groups. We are more tribes. We

21:23

are the better it is for them because they just

21:25

set one off against the other. So

21:27

I think we have to be mindful to be bigger

21:30

than them, better than them braver them

21:32

, them and smarter than them. So we can't

21:34

allow ourselves to fall into

21:36

the way they talk about racism and division

21:39

and discrimination. We have to stick

21:41

up for what we believe is right, and how

21:43

we find the solutions ourselves.

21:45

In one of the earlier chapters of your book,

21:47

you say that fair play tolerance,

21:49

justice incivility are

21:51

inherently British values. Given

21:54

what we've just been talking about and given our history

21:56

as a nation and given colonialism and conflict

21:58

and imperialism and class war and all

22:00

of that stuff. How were those things

22:03

inherently British?

22:04

I'm not saying they are now. I think they're in danger

22:06

of disappearing, but I think for

22:08

someone like me, who's traveled around the world. A lot

22:11

women in the workplace in Japan is a real problem.

22:13

Being openly gay in lots of countries

22:15

around the world is a problem. Me

22:18

walking down the street with my white Jewish husband

22:21

has got me into lots of trouble. My

22:23

children being mixed race who have been spat

22:25

at, in some countries, we

22:27

forget that the world has a long way to go.

22:30

That does not mean we are getting it right. I think we

22:32

were on the right path, but we've diverted off

22:34

that path. And I worry about where we go.

22:36

So we're going to have to fight our way back. One

22:38

of the things I've always thought

22:40

about Britain is a , we haven't valued our

22:42

soft power and our soft influence

22:44

in the world enough. And I think we were on

22:46

the path to building a better society,

22:49

a multicultural society that does have

22:51

at the core of it, tolerance and

22:54

humanity and compassion, but

22:56

it's being destroyed and we're going to have to try

22:59

harder and fight harder to make sure

23:01

that we are still that country. And we can still

23:03

step up onto the world stage and

23:05

try and Butte , other cultures and countries

23:07

with those values. If

23:09

It's not too exhausting. Um,

23:11

let's talk about Brexit for a little bit. In

23:14

2016, you were lead claimant

23:16

in two successful legal cases,

23:18

challenging the UK, government's legal

23:21

authority to trigger article 50 and

23:23

commence Brexit negotiations. How

23:25

does something like that even , even

23:28

come about? Why you like, how,

23:30

What, why? That's an interesting

23:32

one. Why me? Because when this

23:34

all happened, I actually, without

23:37

a second thought, I thought, of course, it's going to be me.

23:39

It's almost like my entire life had come

23:42

to this point, all the failures and having to

23:44

pick myself up and it sort of had to be

23:46

for a purpose. I'm such

23:48

a nerd. I read so much history

23:50

and I actually read hands-off to go to

23:52

bed. And I'd been watching

23:55

the dismantling of parliamentary

23:58

sovereignty. It did not start with Brexit. It

24:00

started before that. And the use

24:02

of prerogative powers, secondary legislation

24:05

are all Kiki things, but I'd been watching it. So

24:07

for example, in 20

24:10

14, 20 15, 96 of our rights had been changed without us even noticing

24:13

and parliament wasn't involved. I was already

24:15

on high alert to what was happening to our constitution.

24:18

And because of my father, I

24:20

understood the British constitution and it's just

24:22

something I've grown up with. So I was very much

24:24

on high alert, but one

24:27

of the things that has not been discussed and

24:29

is always sort of hidden and people don't want

24:31

to get into it because it was branded the Brexit case

24:34

three things. One is we never mentioned

24:36

Brexit in any of the legal arguments.

24:38

It wasn't about that. It was about the fact that

24:41

Mrs. May the prime minister was going to set

24:43

this precedent because we have unwritten constitution

24:46

that a prime minister could bypass

24:48

parliament and change our rights. Now think

24:50

about every right. We have, they

24:53

could just decide to switch it on and off, but

24:55

there is a third thing that people don't realize

24:58

is that being a geek? I

25:00

am. I actually knew the 126 words

25:02

in about den triggering article 50. And

25:05

it said it's an international treaty

25:07

and you have to do it along the lines

25:10

of the leaving country, its constitutional

25:12

requirements. Now if our constitutional

25:14

requirements are that we have to have parliament

25:16

to vote on it would, the EU

25:19

have said you've broken international law. We're

25:21

now taking you the UK to

25:23

international court. So

25:25

we're not going to negotiate any treaty.

25:28

We're not going to let you leave. We're going to basically

25:30

tread water for average

25:33

take court to an international court timing.

25:35

What five years, eight years, 11

25:38

years, what would have

25:40

happened to the UK in that time? And that

25:42

terrified me. So I

25:44

thought these issues are actually

25:46

very black and white, fairly understandable

25:49

that loads of people with joined me. I never

25:52

anticipated. I was going to be the

25:54

only, and I thought academics,

25:56

business people, associations,

25:58

unions would all realize. And I, and

26:00

every time I looked around and there was not a single person

26:03

there. So I never anticipated being

26:05

on my own. You

26:06

Have the benefit of understanding the law.

26:09

I think for many people, Brexit

26:11

was an entirely or appeared

26:14

to me at least to be an entirely emotional

26:16

experience. Um , the

26:18

Marketing on both sides of working, but it's not

26:20

any different from, from what we've seen happening

26:22

in different parts of the world. It was about propaganda.

26:24

I'm not a hardcore Europhile.

26:27

I think any institution that doesn't

26:29

develop and reform along

26:32

the lines of the curve for the contemporary issues

26:34

deserves in a way to be criticized and the EU hadn't

26:36

been reforming enough. So I

26:38

felt we already had the most unique deal

26:40

being a member with not showing in , not in the Euro

26:42

, uh , people don't realize it . I think it's a real

26:44

shame that people don't realize this, but

26:47

we were at the table of every major

26:49

discussion. Our lawyers were writing. Most

26:51

of the directives, we were very powerful

26:54

in the EU, much more powerful

26:56

than people were led to believe. And

26:58

the EU dreaded us leaving because they knew

27:00

that we could sit between that power access

27:02

of France and Germany and the other

27:04

big five because there really are big five

27:06

countries, even though 26

27:08

members are , we were like

27:11

the peacemakers. We were the sensible voice

27:13

at the table and we were making the union

27:15

work and people don't realize that.

27:17

So I just wanted us to stay in and

27:19

be the architects for reform for

27:21

the next phase of the union. Thinking

27:24

about issues without borders that are coming

27:26

down the line, such as climate change,

27:28

terrorism, you know, nationalism,

27:30

there are big issues that are, have not got borders.

27:33

And that is, I think is the biggest shame that,

27:35

that wasn't explained to people enough that together

27:37

we will be much, much stronger.

27:40

You traveled up and down the country when you spoke

27:42

to a lot of people, there was a lot of anger. But

27:44

the thing is, is that it seems a morphous to

27:46

me. And could you identify

27:49

a clear source

27:51

of this anger?

27:53

I was going to the places because I was part of

27:55

the remain campaign since the sort

27:57

of October, 2015, but

28:00

the people in the campaign sort of didn't want to go

28:02

outside of London. They were all pontificating

28:04

on, on debates. And I just said, look, I'm going

28:06

to go traveling around the country. So

28:09

I was going to places like mine had north Wales,

28:12

Leeds , Leicester I traveled. And what

28:14

shocked me was that people

28:16

really genuinely were

28:18

hurting. They saw no future. They

28:20

had no hope. There

28:22

really was this. We might as well have

28:25

a throw of the dice, but even more than that,

28:27

they believed that it would make

28:30

them and their families and the future of their children

28:32

better. Only somebody who's either

28:34

insane or, you know

28:36

, uh , living on another planet would actually

28:38

vote to hurt themselves. So this idea

28:40

that people were stupid, it is so

28:42

disrespectful. And I

28:45

think I would have put most of the

28:47

Brexiteers and those major

28:49

Brexiteers and remainers in a coach

28:51

and drive them around the country and get

28:54

them to really listen to people because

28:57

there was so much pain. There

28:59

is so much pain still. Now politicians

29:02

from all sides have let down too

29:04

many people because they've promised

29:07

not delivered and just made sure

29:09

they're staying in .

29:10

I grew up in the north, in the post-industrial

29:12

north. And so the disappearance

29:15

of industries and everything from textiles

29:17

to mine in shop fronts , closing

29:20

. And now when I returned a lot

29:22

of the places I spent time in as a child

29:24

or have either been bulldozed or there are , yeah

29:27

,

29:27

I went to see this woman Edna. She was 86.

29:29

She was organizing the local Brexit sort

29:31

of campaign group in north Wales.

29:33

And I went to see her in her place. And she

29:35

said to me, you know, we've got to leave for my son

29:38

and my grandson because there's

29:40

no work. I listened to

29:42

her. And I said, but us

29:44

leaving Europe is not going to bring a job

29:46

for your son or grandson. And

29:49

she said, yes, it is. They told me

29:51

it was going to, we're going to go

29:53

back to being great Britain. And

29:55

she was a lovely lady who

29:58

believed it. She believed what she was

30:00

being told. And what really surprised

30:02

me bearing my, she was 86 years old is

30:04

she was reading this on Facebook. And

30:06

I said to her, how did you get on a political

30:09

Facebook page? And she said, no, no.

30:11

I belong to a gardening club. It

30:13

was coming through our gardening Facebook

30:15

pages, I guess,

30:16

Given the divisiveness and given the

30:18

vitriol, all this misdirected

30:21

emotion around Brexit, how do we ever heal

30:23

out ? Do we ever find common ground in empathy, given

30:25

that there are elements that are so

30:28

intent on dividing

30:29

Us? Oh, it , it's not an easy

30:32

problem. And I've been trying to think about how

30:34

do I explain it? And I think there

30:37

is so much that's broken in so

30:39

many parts of our society. I think COVID has,

30:41

has highlighted things we knew that were broken.

30:43

Anyway, our education system

30:46

is so broken our training development,

30:49

the way we live our lives, our housing everywhere.

30:51

I look, I, I feel in

30:53

dismay and then I think, well, what

30:56

if we just chose three or four stones?

30:58

This is my analogy. And I could drop

31:00

them in the water. And the ripple effects

31:02

of those could start that process

31:05

because you can't fix everything. We have got to have more

31:07

accountability. It's a bit like where the

31:09

political systems of vessel. And we keep concentrating

31:12

on who we're going to get to the captain and the

31:14

crew to sail the big ship. But

31:16

we forget to fix the ship and what happens if it's

31:18

not the best captain and the best crew, I'm

31:20

an advocate for a semi flexible

31:23

written constitution , um , limits and checks

31:25

and powers that actually go into law.

31:27

I can't believe there's no employment contract.

31:30

We pay their bills. There's no employment contract.

31:32

Do you think of any other place in life? So I would

31:34

start bringing in checks and balances. I don't think we

31:36

can trust the all boy network

31:38

and you know that my word is my bond. I mean,

31:40

that's for the birds. We don't live in that world

31:43

anymore. So I think I would try

31:45

and change political infrastructure first and

31:48

then look at how that works at infrastructure

31:50

in different bits of society, education, prison,

31:52

justice, all of those. We've got to fix

31:55

the system. So we get the best people in.

31:57

And at the moment, if you are a good

31:59

kind, brave

32:02

, sensitive,

32:04

nuanced individual, why

32:06

on earth would you want to go into any of those positions?

32:09

And then the other thing of course, is the media and

32:11

, and online. I mean, I

32:13

, one of the things that does really

32:15

keep me up at night and I don't

32:17

sleep a lot is I cannot think

32:19

of any time in history when

32:22

we've had issues on all continents.

32:25

Normally you've had big issues, big

32:27

things happening, what was on particularly maybe

32:29

one or two, but this is every continent in

32:31

the world is being touched by

32:33

what we're going through at the moment. And

32:35

I want to move on , uh , nothing boils

32:38

my blood more than bullying. Nothing gets

32:40

my hackles up more than bullying. You seem

32:42

to be of a similar mindset. Do you know

32:44

where that's born of?

32:46

My parents say that I was always like that. Even

32:48

nature and nurture. I've always been sort of, you know , I won't put

32:50

up with this. I've tried to really

32:52

know myself so that other people can't tell

32:55

me who I am and can't bully me because,

32:57

you know, if they say you're this and I go, yeah , so

32:59

difficult woman. Well, that's your problem. It's

33:02

having said that I've actually managed to

33:04

get myself into positions

33:06

of being really badly bullied. I

33:08

ended up being a survivor of a very

33:10

destructive marriage. I then

33:12

got into business where men were

33:14

going to help me build my business. And then that was also

33:17

very controlling, disruptive. I'm

33:19

doing a bit more work on myself on that. And

33:21

one of the things I do and I'd recommend

33:24

this to other people because we have so much noise

33:26

in our world. I do

33:28

try and sit quietly and

33:30

just listen to my own inner voice and my

33:32

own emotions and have conversations with myself.

33:35

I think we forget how powerful we

33:37

are as individuals. We have a sense

33:39

of what's right and wrong. We know when something

33:42

is wrong, we actually physically feel it that feeding

33:44

the pit of your stomach, that rage, when

33:46

your blood really does boil. When you see somebody

33:48

being bullied, you'll be just listen a little

33:50

bit more into our own physical manifestations

33:53

of when we see injustice, I think we do

33:55

something about it, but it's sort of socialized out

33:57

of us.

33:58

I've been dealing with bullies since you arrived in the UK,

34:01

it's taken a shocking and horrific turn

34:03

. Over the last few years, you've suffered a deluge

34:06

of physical threats and misogynistic

34:08

and racist abuse, both from

34:10

social and traditional media. It's a lot

34:12

to unpack if it's not too

34:14

traumatic and experience for you, can you

34:16

start with what happened with

34:18

via count Rhodri Phillips ? Cause

34:20

that is just for people that aren't aware

34:23

of. It it's such a bizarre,

34:24

It was a bizarre situation. I was sent a

34:26

screenshot from Facebook, seeing that

34:29

there was a closed group on social media

34:31

run by this fight count where they're

34:33

discussing, killing me and the

34:36

person who sent me the , uh, by

34:38

email, the screenshot said, I

34:41

haven't known what to do. I contacted

34:43

the police, got no response. So I'm sending

34:45

it to you. I didn't want to send it to you, but

34:47

it's growing and growing and it's getting really serious and they're

34:49

raising money. Now. It wasn't just

34:51

talk. And so the thing that terrified

34:54

me, he actually lived very close

34:56

to where I work. The thing was to get

34:58

somebody when I was leaving work to run me over.

35:01

So that's how it was going to be looking like an accident.

35:04

And this is what they'd come up with. Cause

35:06

I wasn't deemed a public person. So I didn't

35:08

get any security, any protection for the police.

35:10

Even though I was getting those horrendous threats, because

35:13

at the same time we were getting letters saying,

35:15

we know where your children go to school. There'll be taken.

35:18

I cannot even today explain to you

35:20

what that felt like. I

35:22

was torn. I cried

35:24

for hours. I just did not know what to do.

35:27

I called the police. I got some lawyers.

35:29

We reported it. I'm a fortunate position where I can

35:31

afford to do those things. No

35:34

real reaction. And in the end

35:36

they threatened the Rigo , the papers I , we

35:38

got hold of Facebook to see if they close it down. They wouldn't

35:41

because they said it was a closed group. And I said,

35:43

yes, but we've got screenshots. Now we've got people who are telling

35:45

you this CPS then got the

35:47

report from the police and nobody

35:50

had ever been prosecuted for

35:53

online. So the CPS said to me, Gina , this

35:55

is going to be a test case again, do you want to go through

35:57

this? And I said, absolutely,

36:00

we've got to go for this. We've got to do this

36:02

people don't ever think when they're anonymous , there'll be

36:04

found when they are found and

36:06

a policeman turns up at your door, believe

36:08

me, it's enough. We've done eight to cease

36:11

and desist letters through the police. This

36:13

one came to court and we won. I mean,

36:15

what was so horrendous to me though? It

36:17

wasn't attempted murder. It wasn't a conspiracy.

36:20

It was just malicious communications.

36:22

So he got six weeks. And

36:24

I think for somebody who's a VI count who lives a very

36:26

privileged life. Six weeks in Brixton

36:28

prison was probably quite a trough . So

36:32

I think that was pretty awful. The next one

36:34

that happened, I also during lockdown, there's

36:36

this platform called go-fund me. And

36:39

again, somebody sent me the screenshot

36:41

because I wasn't aware of it. But for five months,

36:43

up until October, 2019, there

36:45

had been a fundraiser. And the headline

36:48

of the fundraiser was raising

36:50

10,000 pounds to hire a Hitman,

36:52

to kill Gina Miller long and short. We

36:54

got that to the police. We weren't held

36:56

. And I found out that during lockdown , um

36:58

, it did go to court. They found the man and

37:01

uh, I got 200 pounds for distress and

37:03

that was it. I'm not saying everybody has to be prosecuted.

37:06

We do need to set some markers in the sand

37:08

that this behavior is not acceptable.

37:11

As a young man, I experienced , uh , an

37:13

incredible amount of violence. And also

37:16

the threat of death was very

37:18

prevalent for a few years as

37:20

a young person. And

37:23

there is nothing more emotionally

37:26

destabilizing that I've experienced

37:29

than waking up every morning. Wondering

37:32

whether some terrible things about to

37:34

happen to you w whether it might be your last day,

37:36

it's an enormous burden to walk

37:38

around the world with

37:40

A huge burden. How did you cope? Very

37:42

practical person? So, because

37:44

the thing is when I won the first case,

37:47

I thought the government would just don't go ahead. And

37:49

that would be it. When the government appealed

37:51

to the Supreme court, every

37:53

part of me just wanted to stop.

37:56

I couldn't believe that there were appealing. AI

37:58

had find more money be , but I knew it

38:00

was more about the threats and what it was

38:02

going to do to our family. And I thought, my gosh, this

38:04

is now another however many months

38:06

is going to take. I just wanted to

38:09

disappear into the background. And actually

38:11

at that point between the high court and the Supreme court

38:14

were threats, got much, much worse. And

38:16

I woke up one day and I started writing letters to

38:18

my kids because I'd made a decision

38:21

with my husband that I wouldn't go out with the family. So

38:23

I wouldn't go out with the children anywhere. So anything happened

38:25

to me, it would just happened to me. So I started writing

38:27

them because, you know, there are different personalities

38:29

at different ages. I'm not in a way,

38:31

kept me. And it sounds ridiculous. It kept me seen

38:34

, but something happened in me. And I

38:36

decided I had a choice. I had a word

38:38

with myself sitting in one of my quiet moments.

38:40

And I thought I can either step back at

38:43

which point, the beliefs of one , or

38:45

I could carry on because no

38:48

enough am I letting them win. And they don't

38:50

realize it those few months when

38:52

the abuse was probably at its worst

38:55

is when I became more energized and

38:57

more determined if they fired me

38:59

up to carry on. So it has a really,

39:01

it's really all that negative energy I

39:03

used as positive energy.

39:05

And we're in the midst of a very difficult and traumatic

39:08

situation. We're so busy

39:10

dealing with it that we haven't got time to

39:12

figure

39:13

It out. No, no, no. You don't feel anything. I mean,

39:15

there are lots of times when I cried , but that was probably

39:17

more out of exhaustion because I was really tired

39:20

because the thing is, when you walk around on high alert

39:22

all the time, it's really exhausting. So

39:24

I was always thinking who's around the corner.

39:26

Who's there. I mean, bottles of water. I was

39:28

thinking, cause I had a lot of threats of acid being

39:31

thrown at me because of course in the UK, we can't

39:33

carry anything. I started carrying little cans

39:35

of hairspray because I know hairspray and eyes is like the

39:37

most serious thing. So I'd come

39:39

home. I was absolutely

39:41

exhausted from being

39:43

on high alert all the time and sometimes

39:45

missing food. And you know , uh , I

39:47

remember in court one day just wanting to

39:50

faint because I hadn't eaten properly. I hadn't

39:52

slept properly. And I knew everyone was looking

39:54

at me and I thought I can't faint. I can't,

39:56

I really just want to stop.

39:59

But I knew I was also standing up for

40:01

quite a lot of people. Also, it was an accidental

40:03

platform. I never envisaged. I mean, I've been a campaign

40:06

for 30 years, but not in that sort of visible

40:09

way. And then my daughter,

40:11

my eldest daughter has got special needs. Who's now 33.

40:13

Her mentally is about five or six. She always

40:16

lifts me up when I need it. She said

40:18

to me, one day she said, mom, you

40:20

know, you can't give up. And I said, why? She

40:22

said, because you're always strong.

40:24

You're always mummy . You're always other

40:26

people's mommy too. And I thought,

40:29

gosh, she's just the most extraordinary

40:31

person. And she, she just, I don't know.

40:34

She just gives me the strength I

40:36

need when I'm at my lowest. I

40:38

just pick up the phone and talk to her. A

40:40

lot of these threats

40:41

And the worst of the vitriol

40:44

has come from men. What are we doing wrong?

40:47

Like what, how are we raising so many

40:49

emotionally dysfunctional men? And

40:51

what can we do about it? I think I'm doing that thing where

40:53

I'm asking and , and it,

40:55

It, it, no , it's a really interesting question, but I have

40:58

to say, there's two things I'll share with you, which

41:00

is not really out there known, but it wasn't just

41:02

white men. And that's something I'm

41:04

really interested in, in looking at

41:07

it was men from all different walks of

41:09

life, educational levels and ethnic minorities

41:12

to be something about me being a woman of color,

41:14

but being a woman and a woman of color, the two

41:16

together just enraged

41:18

so many men. But I think

41:21

what I find even more disturbing, it's not

41:23

just me because I've now spoken to lots of female politicians

41:25

and last election, 19 of them stepped down and wouldn't stand

41:28

again. There's something about strong women.

41:30

That's somehow threatening. There's

41:33

so many edges and sides to this.

41:35

There's a prismatic approach we have to take, but

41:37

there's definitely been a

41:40

infecting of men's consciousness.

41:42

When it comes to games, they playing online,

41:45

the sexualizing and the, you

41:47

know, the way women are treated, I find

41:49

extraordinarily disturbing.

41:51

And then you've got also the prevalence

41:54

for pornography . Now amongst

41:56

10, 12, 14 year olds , Christine women

41:58

in different light. You know, we , we look

42:00

what's happening on university campuses, violence

42:02

against women on campus has gone up 400%

42:06

fourfold in last few years. It's extraordinary.

42:08

What's happening. We saw what's happening on the websites,

42:11

the around Sarah Everett, all the other

42:14

points that came out, women going actually it's

42:16

me too. It's me too. Well , something

42:18

has been broken. And I think, again,

42:20

going back to parents, respect

42:23

seeing women as equals there's something

42:25

that's changed there that somehow

42:27

we're taking down a threat. I really

42:29

Honestly believe the predominant

42:31

role of school before

42:34

we start getting into any academic subject

42:37

should be personal social and emotional

42:39

education. Because without that

42:41

grounding in how to be a decent

42:43

human being, then, you know, math or

42:45

history or geography don't mean it , it doesn't

42:47

mean anything.

42:48

Again, it's also about role models of

42:51

compassionate men. This whole idea.

42:53

You have to be strong, aggressive, alpha

42:56

male. You know, we all have to be Donald

42:58

Trump. Oh my God, you poor guys. If you think that

43:00

, so you need to be, I think

43:02

Really this then the notion of strength

43:04

needs to be reconsidered.

43:06

True. Strength is actually

43:08

showing your emotions, feeling and caring.

43:10

That is true strength,

43:12

Right ? Tin angrily is very easy. You

43:15

know , it takes literally no effort.

43:17

It's an explosion of emotion that is not

43:19

been processed. And so, yeah,

43:21

I think we need more social and emotional

43:24

education. The thing

43:25

Is, it's not just one generation, they're all this

43:27

started breaking down, say

43:29

20, 30 years ago, you know, you're asking

43:32

a young man who hasn't had that sort of relationship.

43:34

Then when he becomes a father to be nurturing

43:37

to his children, actually, that's why parenting

43:39

classes are so important. That's why, and

43:41

allowing men into groups, you know, mother and

43:43

baby groups, all these things are so important because somebody

43:46

who's not had love and experienced love

43:48

is going to find it very difficult to give love

43:51

Clear . One of the many things you've been doing

43:53

recently is working on cleaning up the

43:55

financial sector.

43:56

Yeah. That's an easy job.

43:58

I mean, it's an alien world, but

44:00

for me as a factless artists, I've

44:03

no idea what are the major problems

44:06

and how do we tackle them ?

44:07

Oh my gosh, the whole financial

44:09

system is broken again. So

44:11

if you look at, if I break it down to three main areas,

44:13

the first is corporates. So we have a

44:15

system where it's put into law that

44:18

the pursuit of profit is their main golden

44:20

aim. Nothing else matters. Well, that's

44:22

absurd. Surely it's people, profits

44:24

, and planet. Then you come to the financial

44:26

system of people like banks, institutions,

44:29

pension, funds, all those people who look after our money,

44:31

who do not have our best interests at heart

44:34

find, they should have a fee for what they're doing, but

44:36

it should be a reasonable, modest fee because

44:38

the majority of it, it's your money. You've worked hard

44:40

to come back to you. And then the third thing that's broken

44:43

is it's completely opaque. We don't actually know

44:45

what's going on. So we've got to have more

44:47

transparency. So those are the things I've been

44:49

pushing for

44:50

In my ignorance. All I know about the financial

44:52

sector, all like hear about the financial sector

44:54

, uh , you know , subprime mortgages

44:56

and sociopathic hedge fund practices.

44:59

Um, is it redeemable?

45:01

It is. But again, the system

45:03

has got to change because at the moment we

45:05

have people from more or less

45:07

the same schools, the same universities going

45:10

into that , uh , women are not represented

45:12

enough. Um , ethnic minorities are not represented

45:15

enough. People from different sexual orientations

45:17

are not represented enough. We have to have a

45:19

financial system that reflects society

45:21

and they put all the barriers up to make sure

45:23

that it's not

45:24

Happened . I like you take on a lot of issues.

45:27

And , um, and it's a thing that comes up

45:29

really in almost every element of everything

45:31

that I do is representation

45:33

People with good intentions, go into a system

45:36

that then corrupts them because you end up

45:38

having a collective mindset and you,

45:40

and you know, you bet your psyche is formed

45:42

by those around you. And that's really difficult.

45:44

So that's why the system has to change. You.

45:46

Can't just rely on people and culture.

45:48

The whole system has to change to make sure that

45:50

the good people with good intentions

45:52

go in and most of the people are like that,

45:55

that they can actually execute their

45:57

ideas and their principles and their values.

46:00

And that unfortunately is not what happens.

46:02

I really, really

46:05

check in on myself to make sure I'm

46:07

doing things for the right reasons. It's easy

46:09

to get swayed along . And you're lots of

46:11

people will approach me and go, how about sitting

46:13

on this board? How by doing that, how about, you know,

46:15

having this accolade and I have to check myself

46:18

and say, no, no, I've

46:20

got to try and stay true to that

46:22

little girl who grew up in Marvel

46:25

comic books, who thought that I

46:27

could change the world.

46:28

Well, speaking of changing the world and the financial

46:30

sector, one of the things that you are doing at the moment

46:33

is offering free resources to women, with

46:35

the aim of making them feel confident

46:37

and savvy about

46:38

It . So basically I've launched

46:40

this thing called money Xi , which is a resource

46:43

where we talk in everyday language. We're going to dispel

46:45

all the myths and make it understandable

46:48

because at the end of the day,

46:50

we're all living longer. We all need

46:52

money when we're older, true freedom, unfortunately

46:55

needs financing. So I want people to

46:57

become much more active li involved

46:59

in how they look after themselves, their families

47:02

in their , in old age , uh ,

47:04

The gender imbalances in the

47:06

sectors impacted

47:08

you personally, what's made you the most

47:10

angry. And what have you been the most conscious of

47:13

Being again, a woman of color and quite petite.

47:16

I almost walk into a room and ex I expect

47:18

the negative, but what I do

47:20

is, and I've always thought my fortitude

47:23

is to know my subject. I

47:25

work hard at knowing what I'm talking

47:27

about. I don't, I could walk in and bluff.

47:30

Isn't that like incredibly frustrating.

47:34

It has to be, I have to be better at my job

47:37

than anybody else in the room just to feel.

47:39

I know. I know. And unfortunately,

47:41

A lot of women do feel that and I do, but I know

47:44

that then it's just the way it is.

47:46

I mean, it is just the way it is, you know,

47:48

you can't stretch in and , and like a lot of men

47:50

do. But the other thing is I do is that , um,

47:53

I'm also very, very aware of

47:55

physical presence. And when I, what I mean by

47:57

that, I'll give you a couple of examples. So I walk

47:59

into an event, big, you know , heads of most

48:01

of the big banks at an event in Luxembourg.

48:04

I'm on the panel with lots of regulators and different

48:06

people. And they put my name at the very

48:08

end. And , uh , they

48:10

did it on purpose because I know what they do, what they do

48:12

is they, then you have a few minutes to introduce

48:15

yourself. And of course they bag all the good points.

48:17

By the time it gets to me, I've got obviously

48:19

nothing to see. So

48:21

I'm really happy to be at the end because what

48:23

I do is I listen. And when people

48:26

quite often go into situations where they're

48:28

in a combative environment or they're campaigning,

48:30

or they're talking, they want to be the

48:32

first to speak. I

48:34

always want to be the last to speak. I

48:37

listen very carefully. And so

48:39

I can come back at them

48:42

at their own points. And I try really

48:44

hard not to attack them personally. I

48:46

always try to stay calm. They

48:48

will, when they then come back and attack me

48:51

personally, I know I've won

48:53

already. I already know. I relax

48:55

. I sit back and think why , okay, I'm already got

48:57

this one.

48:58

It seems to me that you've spent a

49:01

lifetime. And certainly the last few

49:03

years are holding people accountable

49:06

for their actions. And it also

49:08

seems to me that that's been an incredibly

49:10

tough experience and there's

49:13

been personal cost . Has

49:15

it been worth it?

49:17

Absolutely. Because I

49:20

worry about the world. My children are going to grow up in,

49:23

you know, when I'm really exhausted.

49:26

And I do want to give up some times , I

49:29

think about a letter I got, which

49:31

said, because my children are

49:34

Asian and Jewish that

49:36

they're mongrels and they should have been put down at

49:38

birth. Wow.

49:41

That letter I carry

49:43

with me because I'm

49:45

never stopping until I

49:47

feel completely exhausted. And

49:49

I'm nowhere near that yet .

49:51

I was being a parent shaped

49:53

you as an individual and shaped you

49:55

in terms of your sense of justice. I mean,

49:58

it's obvious from the way you talk about your childhood,

50:00

you've always had this set that

50:02

has been apparent impacted on that

50:04

Even more. But the thing is, it didn't have

50:06

to be my children because I've always worked with children.

50:09

I just find the idea that walking

50:11

next to us, there's a little person who's going to form

50:13

the world in the future. I just find it. It's a miracle.

50:16

It's the most extraordinary thing to get my head around.

50:18

And the fact that we have a responsibility, you

50:21

know, what are they going to pick up when their

50:23

era, our age? I think we have

50:25

that huge responsibility. It's that saying?

50:27

Isn't it. You plant a tree under

50:29

the shadow of which you'll never sit as

50:31

Someone who's been forced

50:34

to deal with a phenomenal amount of stress in your

50:36

life. Have you got any tips for the rest

50:38

of us in how you have

50:40

managed and cope with that over the years

50:42

,

50:43

You've got to look after yourself and find

50:45

the things that you love and do them. I

50:48

know the thing I love. I love dancing. I

50:50

love , um , flowers. You know , I find the

50:52

things that fill me up and they don't have

50:54

to be expensive, but yeah, I'm a crazy dancer. And

50:56

that's for me, music, I'll dance on the floor,

50:58

on the ceiling, on the furniture, whatever it is with

51:00

my children as well. So, you know , find the thing

51:03

you love, but feed yourself, always remember

51:05

to look after yourself. And if you need to take

51:07

some time out to do that, don't feel guilty

51:09

about that. Brilliant.

51:10

I will take that on board. Thank you

51:12

so much for chatting to me. It's been an absolute

51:14

Pleasure. My pleasure too. Thank you.