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bourbon company, Crestwood, Kentucky. ["The

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Crooked Studio"] And

1:41

we are back with an all new episode

1:43

of Keep It. I'm

1:45

Ira Madison III. I'm Lewis Fertell

1:47

and my human voice has grown back.

1:49

So sorry about last week. And secondly,

1:52

for the first time in a long time in the

1:54

Crooked Studio, if you're watching us on YouTube, you can

1:56

see this. They put me in the fancy studio with

1:58

like the buttery Orville Red. type lighting.

2:01

I look so tan. It's like anybody looks

2:03

tan in this room. Like Mary Poppins would

2:05

look like tan in this room. That's

2:08

why they keep loving it in there. I know,

2:10

please. They save it for him. It's like his

2:13

cryogenic chamber. Yeah. Has

2:15

you run into him since he's been back?

2:17

No, mysteriously. And as you know, we do

2:19

pushups side by side sometimes at the same

2:22

place. I'm very

2:24

much looking forward to like scaring

2:27

him out of breaking the NDA. I will

2:29

get him in prison. I will. I

2:33

have to imagine being on

2:35

Survivor and then returning. Maybe

2:38

you need a tiny break from a Barry's

2:40

class or maybe a Barry's class feels quaint.

2:42

Yeah, right. To be honest. Yeah, you've seen

2:44

everything now, exactly. And like you've

2:47

hidden idols in all parts of your body. So,

2:49

you know, your morals

2:51

and standards have changed. So

2:54

I'm right now on Fire Island, which

2:56

always happens to both of us at

2:59

a certain point during the summer. There's always one

3:02

of us recording an episode from here. Oh

3:04

yeah, no, that's my anthropological, like I'm in

3:06

the trenches here in Fire Island doing Keep

3:08

It For Everybody. And then the wifi situation

3:10

is always a major gamble, but you're actually

3:13

doing well so far. Yeah, it's

3:15

weird when people notice you and then say that

3:17

they like the podcast, like when you're out in

3:19

the wild here, as if it's, I

3:21

don't know, not a common place for gay people to

3:24

come from New York. It's like they've seen

3:26

me in like Crete or something. Like,

3:29

what are you doing here? Right,

3:32

no, well, Fire Island definitely has its own

3:35

unmistakable vibe. Like the speed

3:37

of Fire Island is like nowhere else on earth. I may

3:39

get there in the next couple of weeks or so. We'll

3:42

see how my schedule works out, but. I

3:44

do love how it feels like, you know, like Cabot

3:46

Cove, like just a small town. You're

3:48

just walking past people's houses. Right, except there's

3:50

never a murder over there. And God, you

3:53

know, I've prayed for some. I

3:58

would love a Fire Island murder mystery. Like

4:00

where's knives out there? Daniel Craig's character

4:02

is gay, so. Right,

4:04

oh, that's true. That would be a nice little

4:07

sojourn for him. Now I can picture you

4:09

in full number one ladies detective agency gear

4:12

solving that shit there. They're

4:14

like, sir, it's not Botswana here. Yeah.

4:17

Yeah. People

4:22

do leave their doors open. It's very, you know,

4:24

small town. Yeah, there is that

4:26

too. It is, there's a very casual vibe.

4:28

During the big party days, people wander in

4:31

and out of homes and

4:33

you just like hear a music playing. For

4:35

instance, the new Ariana Grande, the

4:37

boy is mine video. And I bring her up because

4:39

I cannot get that video of her

4:41

doing an interview and her voice changes

4:44

for a split second before she jumps

4:46

back up into her twinkly Ariana Grande

4:48

timber. And I'm just thinking, is

4:50

she on all the time? When Ariana Grande is

4:52

talking to you, is she kind of doing a character?

4:54

You know, like Pee Wee Herman or something? Yeah.

4:58

I don't know. The only time I've interacted

5:00

with her was years ago when

5:04

I was at MTV news and she

5:06

was, it was rehearsals for the VMAs

5:08

and my boss let me sit in

5:10

on that rehearsal for

5:12

her side-by-side performance. Nicki

5:15

Minaj was not there. Of

5:17

course, she landed like

5:20

an hour or so before the VMAs. So

5:22

a dancer stood in for Nicki's part of

5:24

it. So I haven't gotten to

5:26

meet her. But Ariana

5:29

when interacting with the dancers and interacting

5:31

with the lighting person was

5:33

in her full like, hi. So,

5:35

you know, I feel like if

5:38

she's on all the time, maybe

5:40

it's just become part of her persona

5:42

at this point. Okay. I mean,

5:44

like, yeah, it's the Paris Hiltonification of a certain

5:47

generation of people. There's just like, they choose a

5:49

voice and stick with it. Though you know what?

5:51

That's kind of old Hollywood too. Like I think

5:53

Grace Kelly made that mid-Atlantic

5:56

accent up. Like she was from Philadelphia,

5:58

but also seemed to be- So

12:00

fucking good. And also, you know,

12:02

it's a really brilliant move. You have that performance

12:04

on stage, which is of course an adaptation of

12:06

the movie you're familiar with from the eighties with

12:08

Matt Dillon, et cetera. And

12:10

then you get to flash from time to time

12:13

to Angelina Jolie in the audience. And then she

12:15

is just spellbinding. I

12:17

mean, just, she really combines

12:19

like both classic

12:22

glamor and also insect

12:24

like intrigue. Like I just look at her

12:26

and I'm like, put it in a Petri

12:28

dish. It's

12:31

always nice when you hear like a story about a

12:33

celebrity who is just sort of interesting

12:36

and fun and normal. And I want to

12:38

shout out for the outsiders, my friend, Juan

12:40

Zay Johnson, who is part of the ensemble

12:43

and therefore a Tony winner. And

12:47

he arrived in Fire Island yesterday

12:49

to celebrate with us and now

12:52

telling me just about hanging out

12:54

with Angelina Jolie and how normal

12:57

and cool she is. Oh, which I'm sure you

12:59

just hated to hear. Oh,

13:01

I mean, I was like, well, when am I

13:03

going to meet this bitch? Because I have some

13:05

things to talk to her about a

13:07

table condiment, if you will. We

13:10

don't even say the word anymore. We don't even say. So,

13:13

Matt, you were in a certain table condiment film. And what

13:15

are we going to do about a sequel? Yeah. I

13:19

feel like that's not out of the realm of possibility. Okay.

13:22

Another thing I didn't know. Hell's Kitchen, a

13:24

musical that is filled with the songs of

13:27

Alicia Keys is a jukebox musical. I thought

13:29

she wrote new music for this. There's some.

13:31

Yeah, there's some, but Fallen is a song

13:33

in this show. And I just want

13:35

to say once and for all that I fucking hate

13:37

the song Fallen. American Idol did it,

13:39

didn't it? It was American Idol auditions. When

13:41

Fallen came out, you're like, here comes a

13:43

bad time from somebody who, they

13:46

didn't even get too much support in their high school

13:48

theater program. They decided they were the star is what

13:50

the deal was. And

13:53

the version they did was kind of sped up. I wasn't

13:55

in love with it. Yeah. I

13:57

mean, it is a jukebox musical. I think.

13:59

I think that that is, I

14:02

think that's one thing they're sort of hiding. I

14:04

don't know why. It's

14:07

not like it would offend me. I

14:09

felt like some people who've gone to

14:11

see it have felt like either it's

14:13

gonna be entirely Alicia Keys

14:15

songs or they're like, oh, she wrote new

14:17

shit for it, like you did. I

14:20

enjoy the show. I mean, I think the performers

14:23

sing down in the show. And I've

14:25

always said, in

14:29

the nicest way possible, Alicia

14:31

Keys is a songwriter and great

14:34

producer. And I just

14:36

love hearing Broadway

14:38

singers sing the songs. The

14:41

arethification of this quote, oh my God.

14:46

I mean, by the way, she's routinely a

14:48

very good singer, but I see what you

14:50

mean. Yeah. Yes, yeah. She is. I love

14:52

Alicia Keys, to be honest. I've always been

14:54

hooked on Alicia since songs in A minor,

14:57

since Diary of Alicia Keys. Yeah, I think

15:00

that's her best album, that one. Yeah, that

15:02

one is just, I mean, there are certain

15:04

Alicia Keys songs where I'm just like, that

15:06

is it for me. I mean, Jane Doe,

15:08

Woman's Worth, but I don't know. When

15:14

you listen to her very distinct voice,

15:16

I'm always a fan of jukebox musicals

15:18

in general. If the

15:21

quality of the song is good, as in

15:23

like it's a well-written song that you would

15:25

like to hear interpreted by other people, and

15:28

then the people interpreting it are fucking

15:30

amazing. You know, like, do I need to

15:32

go see the new Huey Lewis and the

15:34

News musical? I don't know. You know what

15:36

though, I have to tell you, I was

15:39

in the car recently and the power of love came on. And

15:41

as you know, that's like the theme, it's the

15:43

Oscar nominated song from Back to

15:46

the Future. I mean, not to

15:48

put too fine a point on it, get the

15:50

cocaine in my nose when that song comes on.

15:52

Holy shit, what a banger. Also,

15:55

he sounds fucking amazing. Obviously, if you saw the

15:57

We Are the World USA for Africa documentary, they

15:59

kind of... in

18:00

Karen Carpenter's story, to be honest. That's

18:02

true. So you're right there. I

18:05

love the idea of sort

18:07

of cringe-worthy theater things. I

18:09

mean, there's just something quote

18:11

unquote quinj-worthy about bursting in

18:14

song anyway. Right. About

18:16

loving musical theater genuinely about,

18:20

I don't know, me going to fucking Marie's Crisis

18:23

in the middle of the week and singing along

18:25

to show tunes with

18:27

other people. It doesn't

18:29

seem necessarily cool, but I don't

18:32

know, it's fucking fun. I did

18:34

show tunes on Sunday in Fire

18:36

Island and it's

18:38

just fun belting the

18:40

wizard and I with your friends. Totally.

18:43

You know? Also a phrase that's coming back, or

18:45

that at least my friend Jordan says all the

18:47

time, queening out. We need some queening out these

18:49

days. It makes me laugh every

18:51

time I say it. Come on, queens. We're

18:53

the queens. Yeah, right. Where are the queens?

18:55

Okay. The queens are not

18:57

going home on Drag Race, so

19:00

we need everyone else to step up

19:02

to the plate. I think I called

19:04

that fucking season, John Paul Sartes, Drag

19:07

Race. Yeah. People just like on stage,

19:09

like stationary, not going anywhere. I

19:12

truly have not paid attention to a

19:14

single bit of Drag Race because I'm

19:16

sorry. It's not a competition

19:18

show if no one's going home. And

19:21

I feel like if nobody's going to go

19:23

home, they better be the best of the

19:26

best. And while

19:28

these are talented queens, I enjoy them. It's

19:30

just not quite the level of that other all-stars

19:33

where it was like the Alaskas and Jinx Monsoons,

19:35

whatever, where it's like, I have to see what

19:37

they do every week and it would be a

19:39

crime to eliminate them. Like these queens are still

19:41

at the stage where an elimination would bring necessary

19:44

drama. And because no

19:46

one's being eliminated, people are turning in

19:48

some, there's been

19:50

some abysmal performances that I

19:53

did see. And it's, if you're not

19:55

going to be critiqued or going home, then what are we

19:57

even doing here? Yeah, that's tough. That's tough. I

19:59

do feel like- if there should have been critiques also at

20:01

the Tonys. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Here

20:03

we go. Just a panel of people

20:05

being like, not sure about that. Eddie. Ha

20:08

ha ha ha. Let's start there. Okay,

20:11

so as you know, Cabaret, let's talk

20:13

about the musical film. Wonderful

20:15

film. Liza Minnelli, perhaps the greatest Nepo baby

20:17

performance of all time. And you know him

20:19

at Jane Fonda Stan. It's crazy that I

20:21

wouldn't admit that. You got your

20:23

Joel Grey in the movie playing the MC who's

20:25

twisted and, you know, a showman,

20:28

and then also downright evil. They play

20:30

both sides of that to a plum.

20:34

In this version, and you'll have to explain this to

20:36

me, I think what

20:38

Eddie Redmeen is doing is evoking some sort of

20:40

mime from like maybe France

20:42

or something and like that time, like

20:44

twenties, thirties, whatever. But also

20:46

there's something about his performance which starts in extreme

20:48

closeup. And I want to say they made an

20:51

error right there, starting with that. But

20:53

in this performance, the way he moves

20:56

in down to his facial expressions, it

20:59

reminded me of an animatron and

21:01

also a little bit of computer generated

21:03

graphics. And I feel like there's something

21:05

uncanny valley about the way he was

21:07

moving that I felt was unsettling. And

21:09

maybe we're judging that as opposed to what

21:11

he, the artistry of the

21:13

performance in a way. But I just want to

21:15

say, I wanted to kill it with fire. Okay,

21:19

so you're saying he was giving Clippy, you know.

21:21

I see you're writing an essay. Talk

21:23

about a queen. Oh my God, here comes Clippy. And he

21:26

has things to say about your document. And

21:28

I'm like, I'm gonna move this along, he says. I

21:30

think that the

21:33

presentation of him did

21:36

not really represent what

21:39

I saw on stage. And

21:42

I will offer, the show

21:44

is very much this whole

21:46

dust bowl mime sort of like thing. And

21:48

I don't like the full production because I

21:50

feel like it sort of takes away from

21:53

the entire show, to be honest. But

21:57

I think that because I feel like the show

21:59

is swirling. It's

24:00

almost like it's in the round. I just

24:02

think there's too many audience members. It's too

24:04

big. You're playing to too much. And it

24:06

just feels like the entire show, when you

24:09

have the smaller moments, are swallowed up by

24:11

the mess. Which is just all

24:13

to say that Eddie Redmayne being messy is

24:17

one of the only parts of the show that's kind

24:19

of enjoyable. Oh, okay, that makes sense. Yeah, I will

24:21

say in general, when it comes to a play's take

24:23

on material, especially if it's a revival or something, I

24:26

think how I judge whether

24:28

it's a success is, does it feel like

24:30

an approach to the material or just a

24:32

concept? And I feel like

24:34

approach is like the angle that theater

24:36

directors should take. How are we honoring

24:39

what's there and shaping it and illuminating

24:41

it? Not like sort of doing this

24:43

thing that stands alongside it. Now, that

24:45

said, to get back to fun, cringey

24:47

things, Jonathan

24:50

Groff and Daniel Radcliffe and Lindsey Mendez,

24:52

the stars of the Merrily We Roll

24:55

Along revival, their

24:58

energy is to me what the Tonys are all

25:00

about. There was a giddiness about the three of

25:02

them. First of all,

25:04

there's obviously a sweetness towards Jonathan Groff who had not

25:06

won a Tony before and is just this mainstay on

25:09

The Great White Way. Daniel

25:11

Radcliffe, who has been

25:13

on Broadway before and now has

25:15

his big moment. There's just

25:17

something about the three of them. They should

25:19

work together again. I hope this isn't the end for them. I

25:23

love that show so much. And seeing them

25:25

on stage for four, it kind of evokes

25:29

singing in the rain. Yeah, oh my

25:31

God, good morning. Yeah,

25:34

their entire energy is good

25:36

morning. Yeah, right, stepping

25:38

on a couch and dancing like this. And

25:42

I think that that is true. That

25:46

is those three watching them on

25:48

stage, listening to Jonathan Groff's speech,

25:50

that is the shit that is

25:54

going to turn a

25:56

middle schooler, high schooler into the

25:58

next theater. performer

26:01

that we're standing. They are

26:03

watching that. They are being

26:05

moved by that and saying, oh, this love

26:08

of theater, this corniness, this fun shit

26:10

that I love, singing Sondheim with my

26:12

friends, that is what's going to make me

26:14

want to pursue that as a career

26:16

in New York. Totally, totally.

26:18

How did you feel about what

26:21

kind of awards stereophonic pulled then? I know

26:23

you're a big stereophonic stan. I

26:25

was very ecstatic for stereophonic as well.

26:29

Shout out to Jillianna Canfield. Our girl,

26:31

yes. Yeah, for

26:33

being part of this. Will

26:37

Butler from Arcade Fire, writing

26:40

that amazing music. I have a couple

26:42

friends who were producers on this. It's

26:45

been nice to celebrate the show and

26:47

it's also been nice to have friends

26:49

who are involved in

26:52

the show and having seen it from,

26:55

not from conception, but seen it from last

26:57

year when it was at Playwrights Horizon. It

27:00

was just a buzzy show that some

27:02

people were like, oh, this is really good. Some

27:04

people were like, it's three hours long. Me being

27:06

like, actually, I'm fucking obsessed with this show. Then

27:09

it translated into Broadway and then seeing it

27:11

again. That's

27:14

just something I really enjoy about theater

27:16

in and of itself as opposed to

27:18

a film where you maybe see once

27:20

and then you see it again. It's the same thing, but

27:23

seeing people working on a project

27:26

and seeing them on stage and seeing

27:28

how their performances evolve from

27:31

one theater to the next, it's just

27:33

really fun. It's just why I love

27:35

theater. I'm so happy for a stereophonic

27:37

and that a play

27:39

is getting this much buzz,

27:41

to be honest, and it's not one that's

27:43

getting so much buzz because I don't

27:46

know, Julia Roberts is

27:48

in it. Yeah, right. It's just the

27:50

material itself that's being highlighted. I also

27:52

want to say something that's awesome about

27:54

the Tonys is that there's this one

27:56

layer of interest for people who live

27:59

near or beyond. or get to see a lot of Broadway,

28:01

which is like you said, you get to watch the evolution

28:03

of certain projects. Maybe you saw an earlier version of it

28:05

and then you see this other, now it's being celebrated on

28:07

stage and on TV in this

28:10

way. And then for home viewers or like award

28:12

show devotees, someone like me who obviously doesn't get

28:14

to see all these plays, I

28:16

think something that's awesome is you're not inundated with

28:18

the award season campaigning. Not that I don't like

28:21

that stuff and not that I'm not interested in

28:23

it, but it's nice to sort of just drop

28:25

in on a world, basically a subculture and

28:27

see what these people have been up

28:30

to and sort of just root for

28:32

productions based on what you

28:34

think they are or like the nobility of

28:36

the projects or maybe you've seen these actors

28:38

and other things before. It's just kind of

28:41

nice to see something where I'm like, I'm

28:43

basing my guess is not

28:45

on 80 precedents that have

28:47

been set before us and the 80 award

28:49

shows we've already watched. Yeah,

28:52

and it's interesting. Like

28:54

even I attended a like sort

28:56

of for your consideration thing for

28:58

Stereophotic, but it was really just performing

29:01

some of the songs from the show. It

29:06

didn't have the whole feel of the Oscar

29:10

campaign season, which I'm sure it does if

29:12

you're like entrenched in it and I'm sure

29:14

it's annoying. But it is nice to just

29:16

sort of drop in and

29:18

see these shows. And I feel like there's

29:20

so many shows obviously that I have never

29:22

seen that you

29:24

remember their Tony performance. And

29:27

sort of like that is always going to stick with you for

29:30

a show or get you interested in it.

29:32

And I think that the one thing that

29:35

Tony's do better than kind of

29:37

the Oscars to be honest is

29:40

the fact that you are really

29:42

sort of advertising the show in

29:48

a way that the movies don't, you know? You

29:50

know, you are seeing it. Right,

29:52

yeah, especially nowadays the Oscars, you might not even get

29:54

clips of the movies anymore. One

29:57

more thing I want to say about the Tonys. I

29:59

was kind of, blown away by the cheesiness

30:02

of the Tommy performance. Like you're telling me,

30:04

Pete Townsend's involved with this show. Like this

30:06

doesn't remind me of the rock album, Tommy

30:09

at All, or the movie Tommy, which has

30:11

one of the craziest, best

30:13

actress nominations of all time,

30:15

and Margaret. Watch that

30:17

movie, like there is just not another slot

30:20

in Oscar history that is like that, that's

30:22

very unusual. But to say this performance of

30:24

Pinball Wizard was glorified is

30:26

like understanding the matter. It was

30:28

just pure like newsies energy ushering

30:31

the songs of Tommy at you. Yeah,

30:34

I think the show is like truly bonkers

30:36

and crazy and fun. So

30:39

I'm all on board for it, but

30:41

I can see how it

30:44

does look a little goofy. I think what's your

30:46

tap-in from the beginning of the show? I'm

30:49

along for the ride. Yeah, I mean, again,

30:52

if you see the whole thing in sequence, yes. It's just,

30:54

it's very surprising if you're a fan of that album. It's

30:58

a completely different vibe. It's

31:00

like you're hearing the Pitch Perfect cast is covering

31:03

Tommy or something, I have no idea. Well,

31:06

on the flip side, my introduction

31:08

to Tommy was Alex

31:11

Newell performing it on Glee, the

31:13

Pinball Wizard. Oh, maybe that was what sparked this whole

31:15

thing. If Alex Newell is involved, that is only a

31:17

good thing. Yeah, that's honestly one

31:19

of my favorite performances, the Pinball Wizard. So if

31:22

you have not seen that, look it up on

31:24

YouTube. Yeah,

31:26

it's great. And I will just say to

31:28

close this out and in regards to Pride

31:30

Month and Glee, please

31:32

go and look up Gwyneth Paltrow's

31:35

version of Party All The Time, which I

31:37

am sorry to say has become one of

31:39

my maybe top 20 Pride anthems. Yeah,

31:41

I mean, look at that up. And

31:44

I think maybe I even brought this up last week,

31:46

but like people who

31:48

stopped watching Glee before they went

31:50

to New York, like

31:52

if you're missing out on Kate

31:54

Hudson and Glee, like you really

31:57

need to go and search for

31:59

these. because the concept of Kate

32:01

Hudson being a dance teacher,

32:04

basically having beef with this 17, 18 year

32:06

old girl trying

32:09

to fuck her boyfriend is truly wild. Great

32:13

performance from Kate Hudson. And also we've just discovered recently

32:16

that Kate Hudson who now has new music out is

32:18

a fucking fabulous singer again. Now I of

32:21

course remember her in nine being a wonderful singer, whatever, but

32:24

she covered Voices Carried by Till Tuesday and so

32:26

she said, Louis Faggot, this one's for you. And

32:28

I was sitting upright and paying attention.

32:31

It is an amazing cover. She did it for

32:33

Howard Stern. Yeah, she's

32:35

a talent. Yeah, she's just one of those

32:37

people like Gwyneth Paltrow, the Nepo thing where

32:39

they did a lot early. And so I

32:42

think after a while they're just like, well, yeah, I already

32:44

did it. I'm not like restless

32:46

to produce three movies a year or three projects

32:48

a year or whatever. And so you get something

32:50

from her when you get something for her. She

32:52

has her fabletics thing. And I like wearing a

32:55

sexy black tight when I work out. So that speaks to

32:57

me too. Also she's

32:59

kind of a chill celebrity. I mean, chill

33:02

in the sense that every

33:04

celebrity who lives in New York is somewhat

33:06

chiller than like celebrities who live in LA

33:08

because you can be sitting in the West

33:10

Village having brunch

33:12

and just see her walking

33:14

by with her kid or like with her husband or

33:17

something. And there's just this sort of dissonance

33:19

in celebrities who do that in New York because

33:21

they know that 98% of the time,

33:25

like no one's going to stop them. That

33:28

says she really should do a project with Goldie at some

33:30

point. I mean, TikTok, what are we doing? I don't want

33:32

to say we're running out of time here, but

33:35

like honestly, her

33:38

and Goldie and Kurt, like

33:40

let's get the whole family.

33:43

She's doing that podcast with her brother. Everyone's invited, come

33:45

on. Yeah, I'm so

33:47

excited for Death Becomes Her by

33:49

the way. Oh, of course. Which

33:51

is coming to Broadway. So

33:54

that's something like that, I don't know. Yeah,

33:59

overboard. I have no idea, lots of Goldie

34:01

projects that could be mined here, I think. Private Benjamin should

34:03

probably be a musical, honestly. I

34:06

feel like that's probably in the ether somewhere.

34:08

The other thing about the Tonys too, that

34:10

I just want to lastly say, is that

34:13

it's so interesting knowing how overstuffed the

34:16

season is and then knowing so

34:18

much other shit that's coming too. Yeah.

34:22

Death becomes her, for instance. And

34:24

then even knowing shows, especially

34:28

musicals, are workshopped

34:31

outside of New York, like often, like

34:33

in other cities, and you know that

34:35

they're coming. We know that

34:37

Vanessa Williams is gonna be transferring from

34:40

London in the Devil Wars Prada. Right.

34:42

And then also, there is

34:44

Titus. Titus Burgess, yep. Yes,

34:46

is working with, I think

34:49

another Kimmy Schmidt writer on,

34:52

there's a preacher's wife musical coming, and

34:54

apparently it's very fucking good. So

34:56

it's stuff like that is fun

34:58

to hear about. And I think one

35:00

benefit that people who live in

35:03

cities that aren't New York get is, you

35:06

get to see like a random show like

35:08

that in Chicago, or like it's in Massachusetts

35:10

or something, and then it'll be transferred to

35:12

Broadway, you know, like in a couple years. God, I

35:14

hope Titus is the preacher's wife. I

35:16

would love that. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

35:18

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

35:21

That is exactly right. I

35:23

also need to rewatch that movie because I tried

35:25

to explain the plot to someone and I realized

35:27

I don't know how much I actually remember about

35:29

the preacher's wife besides the music. And also I've

35:31

seen the movie, it's based on the

35:33

Bishop's wife even more recently than I've seen that. So I

35:35

probably need to be reacquainted. I've never

35:38

seen that. Yep, in the 40s. Mm-hmm. Okay,

35:40

I'll watch both. Great.

35:45

All right, when we're back, we're joined by

35:47

Lily Gladstone. You

36:02

screenshotted and shared their

36:04

tweets and

36:06

you've quoted them over dinner. Now

36:09

enter the discourse. Listen and watch

36:11

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36:13

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36:16

This, where they'll answer

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36:20

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36:24

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36:27

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36:29

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36:31

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37:01

It is brought to you by Wondery's podcast,

37:03

The Big Flop. The early 2000s was a

37:06

wild time for reality TV. I was there,

37:08

I remember. There seemed to be an

37:10

endless supply of shows that delivered entertainment for

37:12

us, but trauma for children like Dance Moms,

37:14

the infamous Lifetime Network show where the studio

37:17

owners screamed at children and their moms

37:19

over several seasons. On each episode of Wondery's

37:21

podcast, The Big Flop, comedians join host Misha

37:23

Brown to chronicle one of the biggest pop

37:26

culture fails of all time and try

37:28

to answer the age old question, who thought

37:30

this was a good idea? They

37:32

recently looked behind the scenes of what was

37:35

really going on at Abby Lee Miller's dance

37:37

studio. Wow, we know

37:39

that someone created the beast known as JoJo

37:41

Siwa. You

37:43

think we see the lab workings that

37:45

created JoJo Siwa? One

37:48

pigtail, two pigtails? And

37:52

Chemical X. Abby's

37:56

biggest misstep actually wasn't screaming nonsensical

37:59

catchphrases. or throwing chairs on television,

38:01

but instead she was choreographing financial

38:04

fraud in plain sight. Well, follow

38:06

the big flop wherever you get

38:08

your podcasts. ["The

38:13

Big Flop"] So

38:18

we are so honored to welcome this

38:20

week's guest. She is a phenomenal talent

38:22

known for her work in films like

38:24

Certain Women and First Cow, and

38:26

her name was the name of last

38:29

year's award season after an unforgettable performance

38:31

in Killers of the Flower Moon. Here

38:34

to discuss her upcoming film, Fancy

38:36

Dance, please welcome to keep it,

38:38

Lily Gladstone. Hi, thank you

38:40

so much for having me. Thank you

38:43

for being here. Oh my God, it's like

38:45

some people were excited to have, and then

38:47

I'm actually intimidated. You bring so much gravitas

38:49

when you enter any room, even though you

38:51

have such a great sense of humor too.

38:54

Some people just, they have a wise

38:56

thing about them and you are one of those people. So

38:58

thanks for making this past award season so fabulous. Oh,

39:01

thank you so much, so sweet. So

39:04

your new movie, Fancy Dance, first of all, before you

39:06

even get to the plot of this movie, it puts

39:09

you in such a time and place that I feel

39:11

like before even words are

39:13

spoken, it is an unmistakable film. Talk

39:15

about working with this director, Erica Trumbly,

39:17

who has made short documentaries before this,

39:20

but I feel like this movie does

39:22

so much to immerse the viewer. What

39:25

do you think this movie does? I

39:29

mean, this movie does what I always

39:31

hope art can do, and

39:33

I felt that way the first time I got

39:35

sent an Erica script. It was 2018. Got

39:39

a text out of nowhere from Sterling Harjo, who

39:41

I was friends with and had shot a pilot

39:43

with. And he

39:45

said, hey, I've got this mentee at Sundance

39:47

that has a script she wants you to

39:50

read. So great, send it over. And

39:53

those seven pages felt like an entire

39:55

developed feature to me reading it. Every

39:58

single beat in it was. There

40:00

was nothing wasted, and all of it worked

40:03

at a surface value for the scene. All

40:05

of it was actionable. All of it

40:08

was so minimal and not in your face. Yet

40:10

it spoke to just these huge

40:13

societal issues. It did

40:15

so, so effortlessly. I just knew that

40:17

this was an incredibly talented filmmaker, and

40:19

I was so happy because I was

40:21

like, oh, I found an indigenous Kelly

40:23

Ryker. And

40:26

indeed, she watched certain women and just

40:28

got so excited when she recognized indigeneity

40:30

on screen. There's nothing in

40:32

certain women that says my character is indigenous,

40:34

but it lives there. And

40:36

that just, Erica was

40:39

so thrilled by that. So before

40:41

we were even done shooting Little Chief,

40:44

I was wanting to talk to her about if she

40:46

had a feature in her. Because

40:49

I know that's a leap. Writing

40:51

a short and doing it well is an

40:54

incredible skill in a

40:56

seven page page count. I was curious how

40:58

that would translate to a feature film. And

41:01

Erica, before I could even ask her or talk

41:03

to her about it, asked me if she could

41:05

write something for me as a feature. And

41:07

I was just, yes, on board 100 percent

41:10

and didn't know what that would be. Other

41:13

than kind of the characters from

41:15

Little Chief and what turned into Fancy

41:17

Dance living in a similar realm, having

41:20

a similar sort of vibe about them.

41:23

But she knew that she wanted this

41:25

character to also be queer. She knew

41:27

that she wanted the film to have

41:29

higher stakes than what the short did.

41:32

Short is such a slice of life and

41:34

gives you such a beautiful portrait of this

41:36

world. But Fancy Dance was

41:38

able to accomplish all of that, too. So when I

41:40

finally did read the script, I was just blown away.

41:44

It was one

41:47

of those rare moments where you can read a feature

41:49

script. You know, it's like I, it

41:51

takes me a long time, a lot of times to

41:53

read features. Like I

41:56

stop and think and digest the scene

41:58

that I just saw before continuing. on

42:00

and then have to go reread it to pick up the

42:02

flow or I need to use the bathroom or whatever it

42:04

is. Fancy

42:06

Dance did in a feature what Little

42:08

Chief did in Seven Pages, it just

42:10

clipped along and I was there. I

42:12

didn't look away from the page for

42:14

a second. It felt

42:16

like a 10 minute read, but it was clearly

42:19

a 93 page script. When

42:23

I put it down, I

42:25

checked in with my breath. I realized my face

42:27

was covered in tears. I'd

42:29

had a real experience and for the first

42:32

time as an actor, one of the only

42:34

times as an actor, I had

42:36

read a script without projecting myself into it,

42:38

without trying to imagine how am I going

42:41

to play this? How do I see myself

42:43

in this character? I was just there with

42:45

the character. I

42:47

didn't tell this to Erika until just

42:49

a couple days ago because never did

42:51

I want her or Michiana and what

42:53

they did, what they spun that was

42:55

so perfect and well paced and just

42:59

exactly like the short was saying so

43:01

much in such a minimal way that

43:03

works at face value in the scene

43:05

but has this huge allegory packed into

43:07

it. I

43:10

wasn't entirely sure that I was going to

43:12

be able to do Jax justice. I

43:14

didn't know that I was the right actor

43:17

for her, but clearly

43:20

Erika did. Jax

43:22

didn't show up for me in a very real way

43:24

that surprised me and I was so

43:26

relieved when the first lines were spoken and

43:29

I heard Jax's voice and I was like,

43:31

okay, there she is. She was

43:33

there the whole time. It's

43:35

interesting to hear you speak about projecting

43:39

yourself into a work when you're

43:41

reading a script. Obviously,

43:44

every script isn't going to have that indigeneity

43:48

in the script as you said this one does. How

43:51

do you, when you're reading

43:53

something, whether it's a

43:55

director you want to really work with

43:58

or whether another actress signed on where

44:00

you're sort of how do you find

44:02

yourself able to project yourself into a

44:04

work enough so that you're

44:06

like, I can tackle this. And then how do

44:09

you know when there's a piece where you're like,

44:11

you know what, this actually isn't for me.

44:15

I think it's just, it's

44:18

such a gut thing. You

44:20

know, it's happened several times. I've

44:22

been handed a script with where

44:24

the creative has me in mind

44:26

for a very specific role. And

44:29

then when I'm reading it, I just keep resonating

44:31

with another role in it. And

44:33

sometimes it's a much smaller role, or

44:36

sometimes it's a role that you wouldn't

44:38

say is my type, but there's just

44:40

something in it, something

44:42

about the humanity or the way that they

44:44

hang in a narrative that

44:47

I'm just drawn to more. And I feel

44:49

just a more natural flow with. And

44:53

in that case, I usually just ask if I

44:55

can read for the other character. And

44:59

that's actually worked out really well in some cases.

45:02

And it's redefined, just work

45:04

with friends particularly, plays when

45:06

I was in college. But

45:10

yeah, I think in the case

45:12

of whatever I experienced

45:14

in this relationship with Jax on

45:17

the page to

45:19

Jax in action, Jax in

45:21

the vans and doing the dancing and

45:23

just like going through the motions, there's

45:28

this sense, you know, I'll read a

45:30

character and then immediately know how whoever

45:32

has me in mind for that perceives

45:34

me. And sometimes it's like, I

45:37

get why, but no, actually

45:39

nothing I can add to this or, or,

45:44

you know, there's nothing that I want to explore in this. But

45:48

in the case of fancy dance, Erica, Erica

45:51

saw the world she wanted. And she knew that I

45:53

was going to be the one that was going to

45:55

execute it. I mean, the part was always written with

45:58

me in mind. It was always written for me. And

48:00

you know, Roseanne was on as a kid, and I thought it was

48:02

really funny. It was something my parents

48:04

liked watching. And she was

48:06

a big character. So yeah,

48:08

my very first character role that I took

48:10

was an evil stepsister in Cinderella, and I

48:12

chose to play that character like Roseanne. Brilliant.

48:16

Why hasn't this been done before?

48:18

Yes. We

48:20

must see it again. But yeah,

48:22

can you blanch it? When I was starting

48:24

to really zero in on like, all right,

48:26

acting is what I wanna do, so I

48:28

gotta study actors. My mom said, like, let's

48:31

watch this movie, Elizabeth. And I was just

48:34

completely blown away by the transformation that

48:36

she did. Like, I didn't know any

48:38

of her other work before that, but

48:40

the transformation she undergoes as young Elizabeth

48:42

to the queen taking the throne at

48:44

the end is just like the

48:47

kind of physical journey that

48:50

she went on, the gravity she has on

48:53

screen, the way you just like lean in.

48:55

As soon as Cate Blanchett pops up, you're

48:57

just like, oh my God, you're so there.

49:01

And then I watched everything she did

49:03

after that, and the diversity that she

49:05

brings to all of her characters, yet

49:07

they all feel so natural to her.

49:10

I mean, I think the second actor

49:12

that really grabbed me on screen, and the two

49:14

that I say are kind of like the

49:17

ones that mold and shape everything that I want

49:19

to be and how I want to approach

49:21

character, the other one is Philip Seymour Hoffman.

49:26

Like the kind of characters that he would choose to

49:28

play, the

49:31

roles that he would take, the films that he

49:33

would choose, his

49:35

approach to acting, his relationship

49:37

to storytelling. Like,

49:39

I still just go back to old

49:41

interviews and watch his performances and just,

49:46

I find myself in little funny ways,

49:48

just like when I do meet some

49:50

of my idols, like I've met Cate

49:52

Blanchett, she's been so supportive during this

49:54

whole period of time. She was like

49:56

really, she was really pushing

49:58

my performance and character. doing

52:00

that. Even trying to

52:02

like, for example, like, carry Kate's voice as

52:04

Galadriel and Lord of the Rings into this

52:07

other character, I find it was

52:09

fixating on that more than what I was

52:11

saying. It's like, and as soon as

52:13

it becomes like, when I feel that little

52:15

self-perception shift, it's like when you're in conversation with

52:17

somebody and know they're not listening to you anymore,

52:19

it's like, you know, they're thinking about what they're

52:21

gonna say next. I found myself doing that with

52:24

the characters and it's like you need to be

52:26

so present and in the skin of the character

52:28

that people when they're

52:30

saying something important aren't really checking to see

52:32

how they're saying it necessarily, you know, if

52:34

it's coming from the heart, if it's immediate,

52:37

if it's one of those dynamic moments, you

52:39

just have to be in that character and

52:41

in those given circumstances. So

52:43

I think I kind of stopped doing that. In an undergraduate,

52:46

I was given different tools that

52:48

I do find myself leaning on,

52:50

like, animal study is a

52:53

big one. Certain women,

52:55

I was emulating a horse, who

52:59

the rancher was spending all of their

53:01

time, all of her time around for

53:03

significant chunks. She was in isolation with

53:05

horses. So like the kind

53:07

of movement, like the the shifting of

53:09

weight, the like the

53:11

physical language when you're around a horse,

53:14

you need to be so tapped into

53:16

because it's a big kind wonderful animal

53:18

that could crush you, that could like

53:20

be a very dangerous thing if they're

53:22

not checking themselves. And there

53:24

was like a piece in Miley Malloy's story about

53:27

the rancher where, who was originally a man in

53:29

the in the treatment that I kind of hung

53:31

on, is like Chet got

53:33

afraid of something in himself and thought it

53:35

was best to not spend so much time

53:37

alone. And I didn't ever

53:40

try and define

53:42

or judge what that would be in the

53:44

rancher as I portrayed her, other than

53:48

maybe sexuality. But

53:53

I knew that I was playing somebody and Kelly

53:56

and I discussed this, that you

53:58

know, Kelly would talk about just getting in

54:00

writer's brain and being isolated working on a

54:02

script and not seeing many people for a

54:04

couple of weeks and then suddenly going to

54:06

the bodega and like not knowing how to

54:08

talk to a person. It's like

54:10

watching the ranchers thing. So I

54:13

relied on animal study for that

54:15

character rather than thinking of another

54:17

performance that I'd seen from another

54:19

actor. People

54:22

are products of their environment and not everybody's

54:24

environment is sitting and watching film and absorbing

54:26

performance. If I play a character that's trying

54:28

to break through and become an actor, sure

54:30

I'll do that. But it's

54:32

all just kind of given circumstance

54:34

and honoring the world and the

54:36

world view the character holds and

54:39

not every character wants to be an actor. Before

54:42

we let you go, my final question to

54:44

you is you have so many varied interests.

54:46

Like you've talked about like physics in certain

54:48

interviews and like bees and stuff. I love

54:50

like people who just like can't stop having

54:52

hobbies basically. And it's just do you have

54:54

anything new you've taken on recently that you're

54:56

learning everything about? Soil

54:59

acidity. See, this

55:01

is what I'm talking about. I'm

55:05

prepping a yard space for some

55:07

flat beds and deciding what kind

55:10

of species of flowers I want

55:12

to put in to feed the

55:14

pollinators and just learning

55:16

how to have my pH over here for

55:21

these sorts of things, my pH over here for these

55:23

sorts of things, what's going to be good for the

55:25

water. Yeah,

55:28

that's kind of the interest right now. Perfect

55:30

answer. Thank you. Thank

55:33

you. Thank

55:35

you so much for joining us today.

55:38

I mean, it's really lovely to hear

55:40

you speak about your work

55:43

and just the care that you put into it.

55:45

So thank you both. Thank you

55:47

so much. I can feel that you do the same. It's

55:50

nice to put your feet in a well worn pair of

55:52

shoes and just kind of talk. So thank you. Oh

55:55

my gosh, our pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank

55:57

you guys. Keep

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complete details. All

57:45

right, I am fully willing

57:47

to retract some statements. Oh,

57:49

please. Eat some crow here

57:52

because Normani's

57:54

album. Girl,

57:56

this is the gag of the century. I don't

57:58

know how this happened. She kind of

58:00

slow rolled us. And by the way, I mean the slowest.

58:03

Yeah. She is the epitome of a friend who is

58:05

arriving late to

58:13

meet you at brunch and it's,

58:16

I'm 20 minutes away, I promise. Oh

58:18

my God, there's traffic. I'm

58:21

right around the block. I'm looking for parking.

58:24

And then by the time you get to fucking

58:26

brunch, it's like, we've already eaten. I guess we'll

58:28

have a few more mimosas. And then that friend

58:30

arrives though with like this

58:32

interesting story, like some hot tea they're going

58:35

to regale you with. And then you

58:37

keep ordering more mimosas and you're like, okay, you know what? Brunch

58:39

is actually fucking fun. I've forgotten about,

58:41

you know, the two hours I was

58:43

waiting for your ass. And this album

58:46

feels like that because it is good

58:49

and enjoyable. And I want to tell

58:51

you that being in

58:53

Fire Island, of course, this weekend, as I said,

58:57

there's nothing more fun than interacting with

58:59

gays at a party where you're sort

59:01

of like all coming to

59:03

like the same conclusion about something. I mean,

59:05

recently it's been like people discovering they're like

59:08

Chappelle Rhone. And now

59:10

this time is people whispering, that

59:13

album's kind of good, right? And

59:15

everyone talking about songs they've been listening to and

59:17

I'm just, why was she sitting

59:19

on this shit for so long? It is weird.

59:21

And she's obviously had some tribulations. Both her parents

59:24

got sick and that put her off making

59:27

new material for a while. But like Normani's an

59:29

interesting story. So she was obviously in fifth harmony.

59:31

And then, but fifth harmony has been over

59:33

for a long time now. And then she was a

59:35

part of two singles that are both, I would say

59:37

A's. You had Love Lies

59:40

with Khalid. And then you had, I think,

59:42

Sam Smith's best song, which Dancing with a

59:44

Stranger. Dancing with Strangers, that is such a

59:46

fucking good song. Good sexy song for Sam

59:48

Smith, disco vibe, you

59:51

know. And

59:54

in the intervening time, she hasn't done much. There

59:56

have been threats of a new album, obviously, and

59:58

then they didn't have- The threats. I'm

1:00:01

the Wicked Witch of the West. She's coming back with

1:00:03

an album. No,

1:00:06

right off the bat, I will

1:00:08

say it's foolish to expect the sounds you

1:00:10

would get on like a Fifth Harmony album

1:00:12

or whatever, but like it's not a pop

1:00:14

hooks album. This is largely an R&B album,

1:00:16

but starting off you do have the song,

1:00:18

Big Boy, that like hooks you in right

1:00:21

away. Like there's like some momentum and sexuality

1:00:23

to that. That's a banger. Take My Time

1:00:25

is another disco sort of tinged song

1:00:27

that, again, it's not like an explosive disco song,

1:00:29

but it has enough that you could sort of

1:00:32

groove with that song. That's from

1:00:34

the Swedes. Some Swedes did

1:00:36

that shit and they're actually the same producers

1:00:38

who did Dua Lipa

1:00:40

and Calvin Harris's Electricity. Which

1:00:43

I believe is a Grammy winning dance

1:00:45

song. Candy

1:00:47

Paint, which is her new single. I really love

1:00:49

that too. I mean, I can't say, literally I

1:00:51

think the end, Wild Side, which is a single

1:00:53

she released before with Cardi B, feels a little

1:00:55

bit weird at the end of the album. But

1:00:59

there's also lots of stories. I think she

1:01:01

spent a lot of time sequencing this album

1:01:03

and picking what actually ended up on the

1:01:05

album. Her perfectionism is evident. So

1:01:08

I guess she's one of these people like, if

1:01:10

you know who Lucinda Williams is, she'll take

1:01:13

like five years to put out an album.

1:01:15

And then every chord, every vocal is just

1:01:17

absolutely immaculate. And I'm sure putting it together

1:01:19

as, a Stanley Kubrickian

1:01:21

like experience where you, we're

1:01:23

on take 127 and people are gouging their

1:01:25

eyes out, but it sounds very smooth on

1:01:27

the final product. Yeah, I

1:01:29

mean, side note, speaking of that, there was

1:01:31

an interview in Billboard recently that my friend

1:01:33

Stephen Horowitz did with Missy Elliott, who was

1:01:35

going on tour this summer. And

1:01:38

she's the same kind of person because

1:01:40

Stephen was like asking her about music.

1:01:42

And she's like, you know, like, I

1:01:44

probably have about six albums worth of

1:01:46

music that I could release, but you

1:01:48

know, I'm just like, it's

1:01:50

so interesting to me an artist who like has

1:01:52

amassed that much work and it's just, where's

1:01:55

the desire to be like, throw it out

1:01:57

in the world? You know, but I guess

1:01:59

once you do that. it's like it's permanent,

1:02:01

you know? That's true. No, I mean, like

1:02:03

you and I are people who come from

1:02:05

like the hell planet that is Twitter, where

1:02:07

we just like say something, put it out,

1:02:09

and we want an immediate response. There's like

1:02:11

a, if you will, a dopamine hit quality

1:02:13

to it. And

1:02:16

these other people who are like artists, you know, like,

1:02:18

I mean, think of the fucking Prince Vault. I mean,

1:02:20

what is still in there? Mounds and

1:02:22

music videos are in there that nobody

1:02:24

has seen before. Like people actually just

1:02:27

care about, yeah, what actually gets on

1:02:29

the Wikipedia discography? What's actually,

1:02:31

you know, in the list

1:02:33

of canon content? I

1:02:35

feel like we are always brainstorming

1:02:38

a gay Oceans

1:02:40

11 on this show. And

1:02:43

where is the oceans about breaking into the Prince

1:02:45

Vault? I need the Vanity Six

1:02:48

songs. I need the videos. I want

1:02:50

Carmen Electra's album, okay? Oh my God,

1:02:52

no, please. Oh, we could go through

1:02:54

all the mentees who have no material

1:02:56

that came out or whatever. Apollonia,

1:02:59

et cetera. Yeah, I know there's more where

1:03:01

that came from. Well, another real

1:03:03

good highlight of this album is, I

1:03:06

guess the songwriters and the people she works with. She

1:03:08

works with Victoria Monet on this album.

1:03:11

I think that's very evident, especially

1:03:14

in a song like, you

1:03:17

know, Insomnia. Great

1:03:20

song. Which is, yeah, you know, that's also

1:03:22

a song with Brandy. Like there's Brandy vocals

1:03:24

in it too. The

1:03:27

collaborators on this, it just

1:03:29

feels so meticulous and

1:03:31

like the vocals on it are so

1:03:34

great. Mormany has always been an exciting

1:03:36

talent to watch. And you can understand what other

1:03:39

people in the industry like her, because she

1:03:42

can sing, she can dance,

1:03:46

and everyone's just sort of rooting for her,

1:03:48

you know? And I think it's interesting in

1:03:50

the context of Camila Cabello, whose album

1:03:53

comes out next week. It

1:03:56

doesn't end, yes. Yeah, you know, just

1:03:58

seeing like how much shit she's- put

1:04:00

out since and then remembering

1:04:02

their whole story from

1:04:04

Fifth Harmony and like the sort of

1:04:07

riff they had because of Camila's old

1:04:10

racist tweets resurfacing from when she was a kid

1:04:12

and her like taking forever to apologize for it.

1:04:14

So, you know, like they've been on these separate

1:04:16

journeys, but I just feel like it's nice to

1:04:18

have this music out in the ether now. It's

1:04:21

nice to sort of see

1:04:23

like, okay, this is a product I

1:04:25

can support. And I almost feel like

1:04:28

I'm gonna be forgiving

1:04:30

a bit because the album is

1:04:33

from RCA and a

1:04:35

notoriously messy record

1:04:38

label. I mean, if you

1:04:40

think about Tanasha right now, right? Who's having

1:04:42

like such a big moment with Nasty. And

1:04:44

you think about how many amazing

1:04:46

songs she's had before, like Super Love,

1:04:48

for instance, that should have been hits.

1:04:51

What was the common denominator there? It

1:04:53

was RCA. And after leaving

1:04:56

RCA, now she's having the success. And I

1:04:58

believe Tanasha even just had an interview where

1:05:00

she was like, well, I know those executives

1:05:02

over at RCA are gagging about this. Did

1:05:05

we talk about this a little bit last week? I

1:05:07

was surprised to reacquaint myself with the fact

1:05:09

that Normani basically does not like the song

1:05:11

Motivation, which was not a huge hit. Like

1:05:15

it did crack the top 40, but that

1:05:17

was sort of a rallying around her moment that

1:05:19

happened at least with our people. I'm

1:05:21

talking about fags. I

1:05:24

do feel like it's always interesting. It

1:05:26

reminds me of that Cher interview I was bringing up

1:05:28

where she says, I'm not a Cher fan because I

1:05:30

feel like a lot of the time the

1:05:33

women who make pop music, I'm not

1:05:35

saying it's not for them, but I guess

1:05:37

it's somewhat unusual or more unusual that like

1:05:39

a woman's favorite type of music would be

1:05:41

like Power Pop, I guess, since it's such

1:05:44

gay guy culture. I don't know. But

1:05:46

I was surprised to hear that because I think Motivation

1:05:48

is just an immediate like, oh, pick me up song.

1:05:50

Like of course play that song. Yeah.

1:05:53

But of course now listening to dopamine, if you

1:05:55

can understand that this is the kind of music

1:05:57

that she wanted to be making. Victoria

1:06:00

Monet style music, like working

1:06:02

with Brandy. If your

1:06:05

label is like, we're gonna make a pop

1:06:07

album produced by Max Martin, why you would

1:06:09

maybe be upset with that? Yeah, that's true.

1:06:11

Yeah, it feels like you had no hand

1:06:13

in it whatsoever. That's

1:06:17

just all to say that this is

1:06:20

a good album. And I'm hoping

1:06:22

for like

1:06:24

videos, you know? Or like some

1:06:26

live performances, some promotion. Cause I

1:06:28

feel like even leading

1:06:30

up to this album, like

1:06:33

girl, were you running out of minutes on your

1:06:35

phone or something? Like, could we get a single

1:06:37

tweet or something like that?

1:06:39

Like either album kind of just arrived

1:06:42

with no fanfare. No,

1:06:44

that is weird. And again, we are like a

1:06:47

Washington fanfare of all these other albums. Like the

1:06:49

lead up to Dua Lipa's album or a Billie

1:06:51

Eilish album was like so extreme, you know? Yeah,

1:06:55

honestly, if we're talking about

1:06:58

promotion and rollout, I

1:07:00

wanna commend Charlie XCX who

1:07:02

got number two on

1:07:05

the UK album charts thanks

1:07:08

to a sinister woman who got

1:07:10

number one. Ah, right. She

1:07:12

who shall not be named. Yes, she's eight weeks

1:07:14

at number one, yes. Yeah,

1:07:16

we don't wanna name her lest this

1:07:19

video references Taylor again

1:07:21

on YouTube. And it's like, Louis Bertel says

1:07:23

Taylor's swim should die in the following ways.

1:07:26

Yeah. And

1:07:30

she debuted at number three on the

1:07:33

US chart selling like more

1:07:35

than double what Crash, Charlie's previous

1:07:38

album had sold. And I just

1:07:40

want to attribute that to the

1:07:43

rollout for the album, Brat,

1:07:46

which felt very big,

1:07:49

but not so big when you

1:07:51

think about the ways that the music used

1:07:53

to be promoted when we were younger,

1:07:56

like TRL, right? Like Charlie's album

1:07:58

rollout. felt so much like, I

1:08:01

don't know, Brittany or

1:08:03

Christina or Jessie's Child promoting an album

1:08:05

in the TRL era. Like they would

1:08:07

be everywhere. There would be sponsorships, there

1:08:09

would be performances. They'd be showing up

1:08:11

next to Carson Daly being like, hey

1:08:13

kids, have you heard like the new

1:08:15

single? You know, it's actual

1:08:17

promotion, which felt so shocking

1:08:20

coming from Charlie because we've just been in

1:08:22

this era of Beyonce gives you

1:08:24

Cowboy Carter and then Bye. She's mysteriously

1:08:26

driving a truck around the country. I

1:08:28

don't know, murdering people.

1:08:33

Miley Cyrus gives you an album and then

1:08:35

it's Peace Out, No

1:08:37

Tour. I

1:08:40

mean, Taylor gives you the album

1:08:42

and she's pretty much

1:08:44

the only one doing something

1:08:47

with her album. But even

1:08:49

that isn't traditional promotion in

1:08:51

the sense. That is, if you want

1:08:53

to hear these songs come to my tour where

1:08:56

I'm singing these songs every night now, but you're

1:08:58

not going to see me perform them live or

1:09:00

do anything else. Like you got to pay me,

1:09:02

you got to pay to play. It

1:09:06

also must be said, I mean,

1:09:08

people are just, it's like Charli XCX became everybody's

1:09:10

favorite. Like I saw footage of her performing in

1:09:12

LA over the weekend and the crowd went back

1:09:14

and back and back and it did not look

1:09:16

like there was one inanimate body in

1:09:19

that crowd. People have just like, it's like

1:09:21

there's this accumulating sense of ownership over her.

1:09:23

And now she's having this sort of crowning

1:09:25

moment and everybody's a part of it. No,

1:09:27

I mean, it's amazing what's happened to

1:09:29

her in the past six months alone, let alone

1:09:32

the past three years. Amazing

1:09:35

to see the same rise happening with Tinashe because

1:09:37

I feel like they're both artists who started, I

1:09:39

mean, they have that song Drop That Kitty, which

1:09:41

I love. And

1:09:44

they both are artists that started what, like

1:09:46

a decade ago-ish. And we

1:09:48

have been gays who've seen them

1:09:50

performing at our Pride

1:09:52

festivals or 7-Eleven parking lots

1:09:56

with Marty McKee. And now that we're here, we're

1:09:58

going to be performing at the Pride Festival. they

1:10:00

are actually getting the flowers

1:10:02

they deserve. They're being respected as

1:10:04

artists. And it's, I don't

1:10:06

know, this interesting thing in pop music right

1:10:08

now. I mean, you can almost attribute it

1:10:10

to the Chappelrona

1:10:12

of it all too. Like

1:10:14

how much these two

1:10:17

songs, it's been

1:10:19

so crazy in real time to see

1:10:21

how her crowds have grown at each

1:10:23

concert where they're massive. So the point

1:10:25

where she was on stage in a

1:10:27

recent video where she was

1:10:30

choked up, just saying like, I'm sorry

1:10:32

guys, I need a moment. Like this is all just

1:10:34

happening so fast for me. Yeah, and you could see

1:10:36

why. It's like a completely different, it reminds me in

1:10:38

a way of in the mid 90s when

1:10:42

Before Jacket Little Pill came out, Alanis

1:10:45

Morissette started performing at like

1:10:48

small clubs or whatever and suddenly like overnight,

1:10:50

people are screaming, you ought to know back

1:10:52

at her. And it's like, there's

1:10:54

no, nothing can prepare you for

1:10:57

that. So like you go from being somebody

1:10:59

people may have heard of to, you are anthemic

1:11:02

and important to people. And that

1:11:04

is, I imagine very shocking. Yeah,

1:11:07

I mean, I believe Chappel was like what? Like a

1:11:09

camp counselor or something like a year ago, last summer,

1:11:12

you know? And that's

1:11:14

just to say that I feel

1:11:16

like we're in such an interesting

1:11:19

era for pop music right now

1:11:21

where yes, there are the sales

1:11:23

and like the internet fandom things that

1:11:25

matter, but people seem to be

1:11:27

showing up in a real way, IRL

1:11:30

for live music again. And

1:11:33

by the way, IRL music is also expensive. So these

1:11:35

people like tend to make a lot of money. Like

1:11:37

I was watching the resale Charlie tickets and

1:11:39

it was like getting up to $400. I'm like,

1:11:41

shit, I didn't pay that much to go

1:11:43

to a family funeral. And the

1:11:45

IRL thing is interesting too, because I feel

1:11:48

like we always bring up the fact that

1:11:51

when you used to like your favorite artists,

1:11:53

like Madonna, Mariah Carey,

1:11:56

you know, Michael Jackson, basically

1:12:00

go out and buy their albums, one. And

1:12:03

if you wanted to see them in concert, you

1:12:07

had to fucking line up outside

1:12:10

of the box office to buy tickets.

1:12:12

There was none of this online

1:12:15

waiting for a queue and your ticket

1:12:17

master crashing or something. It's like, you

1:12:20

remember just seeing old news clips or

1:12:24

MTV or something where they'd be interviewing fans

1:12:26

who were sleeping over, camping out at night

1:12:28

to get Madonna tickets. Oh yeah, I would

1:12:30

line up at Tower Records to get autographs

1:12:32

from people. Remember autographs? Are we fucking done

1:12:34

with that? Charlie was doing autographs at stores.

1:12:37

What an insane idea. Definitely

1:12:39

write your name with this marker on my things

1:12:41

so that I can have it. What

1:12:43

is it? That's so primitive. It's

1:12:45

so caveman. In the age of selfies,

1:12:47

it feels just utterly irrelevant. I

1:12:50

know, I saw her doing that with

1:12:52

people, like doing actual album signings.

1:12:54

And I don't think the

1:12:56

last album signing I went to was for

1:12:59

garbage maybe five

1:13:01

years ago or something. But I don't

1:13:04

know, bringing back that old era

1:13:07

of just personalization

1:13:09

with your fans, but not just

1:13:12

online anymore. Giving them actual

1:13:14

things to show up for,

1:13:17

I think is gonna be really sort of what saves

1:13:19

pop music in the industry and gets

1:13:22

younger people involved in wanting

1:13:24

to stand their artists. I

1:13:26

would love people to be

1:13:28

standing their artists in public instead of online

1:13:30

and threatening to murder you. Yeah, you know

1:13:33

what else is gonna save pop? Katy

1:13:35

Perry's We Are New single. Which girl, I

1:13:37

mean, we can talk about it. There's a snippet of it.

1:13:40

And now I have a question, I have a question. Dr.

1:13:43

Luke is allegedly involved in this album. Does he

1:13:45

do all the songs, including this one? Because I

1:13:47

thought the whole thing with Dr. Luke was, if

1:13:49

you sold your soul to get Dr. Luke involved,

1:13:51

the music would be good. Because this... It's

1:13:56

like, I'm fine

1:13:58

with auto tunis, now any vocals. but like

1:14:00

there's something kind of warped about how she

1:14:02

sounds like the lyrics feel a little bit

1:14:04

15 years ago in a way I Mean

1:14:08

it's weird Calling the song

1:14:10

a woman's world in the first place is very

1:14:13

Martha and the Vandalas there literally is a

1:14:15

Cher song called Women's world.

1:14:17

Yeah from like 2011 or so tell

1:14:20

the truth Yeah, this is a

1:14:22

woman's world. Yeah, and

1:14:24

this song Someone I think

1:14:26

there was some tweet about it how it sounds

1:14:28

like a RuPaul song Yeah, which by the way,

1:14:31

that's not always a bad thing. I can get

1:14:33

into that. Yeah I mean if

1:14:35

this were hustle that cat Oh, please sure pink

1:14:37

limousine off the last album love it so

1:14:40

the album was I Guess

1:14:42

an Ava max song and Ava max

1:14:44

scrap and the dr. Luke work is

1:14:46

some reworking of the chorus and like

1:14:49

some other lyrics and stuff so She

1:14:52

went to the doctor and didn't even get

1:14:54

like a prescription. She went to the doctor

1:14:56

and got cosmetic work done operation

1:15:00

And it feels like the

1:15:02

tweezers hit something and you know, you

1:15:05

got that buzzing sound Water

1:15:09

on the knee. Yeah And

1:15:14

what's extra funny about this Katy Perry

1:15:16

thing is the visuals have been

1:15:18

like so cunt Like honestly like

1:15:20

she looks great. She looks like an American

1:15:22

gladiator if an American gladiator were Michelle Visage

1:15:25

That's what she looks like. Yes, and

1:15:27

just the whiplash from these amazing visuals to

1:15:30

the snippet that she posed it We're like,

1:15:32

oh girl that the song is coming out

1:15:34

July 11th. So you got some time to

1:15:36

get back in the studio Right

1:15:41

Just work back from the title. Right? That's

1:15:43

right. That's right. Also, it's the fourth So like,

1:15:45

you know, the studio won't be booked you

1:15:47

can take it But

1:15:51

yeah, I haven't seen that much

1:15:53

goodwill for an Irritate

1:15:56

so quickly by

1:15:58

hearing the snippet because people were actually

1:16:00

so excited for a Katy

1:16:02

Perry comeback, which was shocking. Yeah, right. No,

1:16:05

I mean, and also again, this Normani album

1:16:07

is great. There's an opportunity here for it

1:16:09

to be great. And also again, maybe the

1:16:11

chorus is a banger. We didn't hear anything

1:16:13

from the chorus, so who knows? Yes, there

1:16:15

was a leak of the alleged song, but

1:16:18

our friend Ty Sunderland

1:16:20

assures me that he has heard part of

1:16:22

the chorus and that that is not the

1:16:25

thing that is circulating online. So

1:16:27

it seems like someone attached an

1:16:30

AI version to the

1:16:32

snippet and acted as if they were

1:16:34

a leak, which is, I guess, shit

1:16:36

that bored people do on the internet.

1:16:38

Oh my God. Don't funk with my

1:16:40

hard quote, Fergie. Where's she at? I,

1:16:42

great question. She took that MILF money

1:16:44

and said, I'm choosing obscurity. That's

1:16:47

when I know pop music will be saved again

1:16:49

when she is doing acrobatics on stage. Yes, pop

1:16:52

stars, if I can recommend one thing to you

1:16:54

before we move on, roundoffs.

1:16:56

I mean, it's just something you can

1:16:59

learn. All right,

1:17:01

when we're back, keep it. And

1:17:09

we are back with our favorite segment

1:17:12

of the episode. It's keep it, Lewis.

1:17:15

Oh yes, sometimes when I hear a snippet

1:17:17

about a celebrity, it's just, I don't want to

1:17:19

know. Even if it, I think it's ultimately beneficial

1:17:22

or there's like comedy valued to it. This

1:17:24

is one of those cases. There's a new

1:17:26

book called Apprentice in Wonderland about former

1:17:29

president Donald Trump. And

1:17:32

in the book, it details Trump's

1:17:34

obsessive crush on Debra

1:17:36

Messing. I don't want to

1:17:38

know. I can't hear them.

1:17:41

I don't know how this happened. I don't

1:17:43

want to know the details. I don't

1:17:46

want to hear her tweets in response because she's going to have,

1:17:48

I'm going to guess roughly in the 50 to 75 tweets range

1:17:52

response to this. Yeah. I

1:17:55

too have enjoyed Debra

1:17:58

Messing over the years. As you know, she was- She

1:18:00

was in the workshop of Angels in America before

1:18:03

it became a huge sensation. So there's some credibility

1:18:05

there. Will

1:18:07

and Grace, a wonderful TV show. She

1:18:09

was in that weird movie where she

1:18:11

played the police detective who's investigating the

1:18:15

disappearance of somebody's kid. Yeah, that

1:18:17

Debra Messing movie is Searching with

1:18:20

John Cho is in that. And

1:18:23

that is also from the creators

1:18:25

of Missing, a

1:18:27

very iconic film with Storm Reed

1:18:30

and Nia Long. If

1:18:32

you have not seen it, it's actually

1:18:34

one of my favorite movies of last year. Well,

1:18:36

then there's also The Mysteries of Laura.

1:18:38

Oh yes, and we didn't solve one

1:18:40

of those out of disinterest. The Mystery

1:18:42

was how it got made. Right, and

1:18:45

it got multiple seasons, I believe too.

1:18:47

That was a bit of trouble. Ned

1:18:49

and Stacey, a lovely

1:18:51

show with Thomas Haden Church.

1:18:53

Smash, smash. Great show which

1:18:56

had two good songs, two

1:18:58

good songs. But

1:19:00

otherwise, I do not wanna

1:19:02

think about this man having a crush period, let

1:19:05

alone on Debra Messing, who is, I

1:19:07

think maybe the most skittish celebrity of all

1:19:09

time. I can't picture them together. That's

1:19:13

all I have to say about that. I can't even say it

1:19:15

doesn't sit well with me because I won't let it sit. I'm

1:19:17

pushing it off my chest like a sleep demon. Yeah,

1:19:22

so weird too because she hates that man. Hates

1:19:24

him the most. I mean, she's one of those

1:19:27

like, Patricia Arquette people who's like retweeting like 100,000

1:19:29

news links about a bad

1:19:31

thing he did. Not that they shouldn't do that, it's

1:19:33

just a particular kind of Twitter behavior. Well, you know

1:19:35

what, I thought of one other thing. Her appearance in

1:19:37

bros, very funny. Very funny. Also

1:19:39

her appearance on Billy on the Street, sensational.

1:19:42

Where Billy walks around yelling, listen you gays, it's

1:19:44

Debra Messing, and then people scream. Honestly,

1:19:47

Debra Messing, a celebrity that I feel like

1:19:50

we would all love if Twitter

1:19:52

had never been existed. No,

1:19:54

she's kind of like, I mean, this seems so

1:19:56

obvious. She comes from the sitcom world, like a

1:19:58

Jennifer Aniston. Just like. The entire personality

1:20:00

is right there on the screen. I'm ready

1:20:03

for a one-liner. I have a relatable sort

1:20:05

of neurosis about me. Let's make

1:20:07

this episode work, thing. Speaking of Denver

1:20:11

Messing, my keep it is related

1:20:14

to someone else from Will and Grace. No, it's

1:20:16

not. Hold on, who could it be? I'm thinking,

1:20:18

is it Ms. Malali? It

1:20:20

is. It is not anything

1:20:23

that Malali has done herself. We love

1:20:25

you Malali. We love Nick Offerman. America's

1:20:29

Sweethearts. I am talking

1:20:31

about whoever is responsible for the poster

1:20:34

for this film, The Fabulous Four starring

1:20:36

Megan Malali, Bette Midler, Susan Sarandon and

1:20:38

Sheryl Lee Ralph. Have you seen this?

1:20:40

I just saw it, I believe on

1:20:42

your account. Now, first of all, we

1:20:44

get like five of these types of

1:20:46

movies a year now where it's like,

1:20:49

Diane Keaton, Sally Field, Jane Fott.

1:20:52

It's just like Jane Curtin may

1:20:54

sneak in there. And

1:20:56

by the way, we want them. And it looks like

1:20:58

they cost about a nickel to make and

1:21:01

that's fine. And I'll see it in the

1:21:03

month of exactly April. This

1:21:09

movie is called The Fabulous Four. And

1:21:11

the tagline says four friends, one wedding,

1:21:13

lots of baggage. The poster

1:21:16

for this, first of all, I said it

1:21:18

looks like something my grandmother had on VHS

1:21:20

in 1994. Which should be

1:21:22

its own criterion collection. I mean, to say that. Yeah,

1:21:25

first of all, you have Bette Midler

1:21:28

in the background of like

1:21:30

the four women are super imposed

1:21:32

onto this poster which shows the

1:21:34

like beach and palm trees beneath

1:21:37

them. Very sunset

1:21:39

beach vibes here. But Bette Midler is

1:21:41

in sort of a wedding dress and

1:21:43

veil and only doing what I can

1:21:46

only describe as raising the roof. You

1:21:48

know that was a silly take and

1:21:50

they said we're gonna go with it.

1:21:54

Do a fun one. Shirley

1:21:57

Ralph looks like she is posing. at

1:22:00

the mall for photos.

1:22:02

She's a realtor who is gonna take her

1:22:05

time with you. Meanwhile,

1:22:08

Susan Sarandon

1:22:11

looks like a school teacher

1:22:13

who was just like snapped

1:22:15

by the yearbook, like caught

1:22:17

off guard. She's wearing glasses.

1:22:20

She has a satchel over her. Her

1:22:23

mane is very like 70s male heartthrob too.

1:22:27

Like leaf garret or something, yeah. And

1:22:30

then Meghan Malale is holding the

1:22:32

bouquet of flowers with

1:22:34

one arm up in the air, shouting,

1:22:38

this photo of Meghan Malale, who

1:22:40

is this woman? She

1:22:43

does look to be about 28 years old. She

1:22:45

does look to be 28 years old. She

1:22:47

looks airbrushed to hell. People have been like,

1:22:49

is this Casey Musgraves? Is this young Lana

1:22:52

Del Rey? It looks

1:22:54

nothing like Meghan Malale. It

1:22:57

reminds me of that, I think

1:22:59

it's Sex in the City 2. That's the one where they do I

1:23:01

Am Woman, right? Yes. Where there was

1:23:03

a publicity still of Kim control in one

1:23:05

photo where it was just, this

1:23:07

woman is 11 years old. How? What

1:23:10

happened? So

1:23:13

yeah, this poster is crazy.

1:23:15

Also, yes, we do get

1:23:18

a bunch of these movies. And while they

1:23:20

are fun, it's a novelty for gays

1:23:23

of a certain age. And I guess the women

1:23:25

who go to see them. Can

1:23:28

we start putting these women in other movies, though?

1:23:30

Right. I feel like Alfre Woodard was in

1:23:32

one of these recently. And I'm like, you

1:23:35

can't be nominated for 18 Emmys and then

1:23:37

we have to do this now, as much as you want

1:23:39

to work with Kathy Bates or whoever's in this movie. It

1:23:42

does feel like we can elevate it somehow, like

1:23:44

one step. Can it be about a grisly murder

1:23:47

too or something? I don't know. Yeah,

1:23:50

I mean, we even did

1:23:52

this to Angela Bassett

1:23:55

once. She

1:23:58

was in that movie. the other hood

1:24:02

with Patricia Arquette, Felicity Huffman. I

1:24:05

don't even know this one. Yeah,

1:24:07

you're gathering these older women and

1:24:09

giving them roles, but can

1:24:12

it be a murder mystery? Like can we

1:24:14

have someone make it a raunchy comedy or

1:24:16

something like the fabulous four, Boys

1:24:19

on the Side without the Murder? Boys

1:24:22

on the Side is a movie people should bring up more often,

1:24:24

by the way. I enjoy Boys on the Side. It's a great

1:24:26

movie. Yeah. Yeah. I guess

1:24:28

that's it. No, I think that was important that you

1:24:30

brought that to everybody's attention. I can't believe we slayed

1:24:32

half the cast of Will and Grace. Just,

1:24:35

we did not plan that. Should

1:24:40

I come after Sean Hayes and Goodnight Oscar last

1:24:42

Tony season? No, he was great actually. I have

1:24:45

no complaints. Didn't Eric

1:24:47

McCormick do something recently that

1:24:49

was annoying? The last time

1:24:51

I saw him was on The Other Black Girl, in

1:24:54

which he was good. Eric McCormick defends

1:24:56

straight actors playing gay characters. Playing

1:24:58

gay characters is part of the

1:25:01

gig. Honestly, he's right. Otherwise we'd

1:25:03

never see a single Paul Mescal

1:25:05

movie. That's exactly right. And also

1:25:07

Eric McCormick, of course, Emmy

1:25:09

winning turn as a gay man and I bought every single second

1:25:11

of it. Yeah, all

1:25:13

right. Well, thank you to

1:25:16

Lily Gladstone for joining us. A fancy

1:25:18

dance will debut in select theaters on

1:25:21

June 21st, this week

1:25:23

before streaming globally on Apple TV

1:25:25

Plus on June 28th. Yeah,

1:25:28

that's our show. Take

1:25:30

that, faggots. Straight people

1:25:32

win. There are gods. We'll

1:25:34

see you next week. ["The

1:25:48

Keyfitt is a cricket

1:25:56

media production. Our producers are CJC.

1:26:00

each, Pokinghorn and Chris Lord, and

1:26:02

our associate producer is Kennedy Hill.

1:26:04

Our executive producers are Ira Madison

1:26:06

III, Louis Vartel and Kendra

1:26:08

James. Our digital team is Megan Patzel,

1:26:10

Claudia Sheng and Rachel Gajeski. This episode

1:26:12

was recorded and mixed by Evan Sutton.

1:26:14

Thank you to Matt DeGroat, David Tolz,

1:26:16

Kyle Seglen and Charlotte Landis for production

1:26:19

support every week. Imagine

1:26:21

bold, naturally aged, Tillamook cheddar slices melting

1:26:24

over a burger,

1:26:26

eating thick cut cheddar shreds straight

1:26:28

from the bag. It's nice to

1:26:30

dream about cheese for a bit.

1:26:33

Tillamook cheddar, extraordinary dairy.