0:00

What happens inside your mind when

0:02

your body is pushed to its limits? In

0:05

twenty seventeen, Egyptian adventures,

0:08

and Amerenor attempted

0:10

the world's toughest trace. A

0:12

three thousand mile unsupported row

0:14

across the Moita Atlantic Ocean in

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a seven meter rolling boat. It's

0:19

a journey taken by fewer people than

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those who've been to

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space. It was like being at war

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every single moment of the experience.

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However, about nine days into their

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journey, when their boat capsized in a severe

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storm and the life raft didn't open,

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they came face to face with death.

0:35

You're feeling seasick, you're

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feeling tired, every

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fiber of your body is telling

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you to stop.

0:43

Inspired by the documentary

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film beyond the raging sea. The

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podcast unravels new layers of

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human's state of mind against adversity.

0:52

Listen to be on the Regency state

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of mind right here on the podcast

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app, episodes drop every

0:58

Monday.

1:09

Seem to happen.

1:10

And one story that always kind of captures

1:12

my imagination. Right. And the most stunning

1:14

going in. I don't know if all the streets

1:17

us culture. Mhmm.

1:18

And you're listening to Kerning cultures. Kerning

1:21

cultures.

1:24

I'm

1:25

Dana Belutz, and this is Kerning Cultures.

1:28

Today, we're doing something different.

1:44

Has fought his nation

1:46

ahead against

1:48

Argentina. As

1:49

you might have heard, there's a football

1:51

tournament or soccer depending on where you

1:53

live. Going on at the moment. Really,

1:56

it's a world cup like nothing

1:59

we've ever seen.

1:59

And it's the first time the competition has

2:02

been hosted in the Middle East which is huge.

2:05

For thousands of people across the region,

2:07

it's the first time they've been able to see the

2:09

games up close.

2:10

The Johnson again.

2:17

And it's

2:17

the first time a team

2:18

from the Arab world or Africa has

2:20

gotten this far into the

2:21

tournament. A

2:23

genuine tilt in the

2:25

axis

2:26

of World football

2:27

because Morocco

2:29

have fast through that glass ceiling.

2:37

But

2:37

it's also a world cup that's left us

2:39

with mixed feelings. Hosting

2:41

the tournament in Klotzad has put a spotlight

2:43

on the fact that thousands of migrant workers

2:45

have died during the construction of the World Cup.

2:48

And it's also highlighted the ways

2:50

in which Qatar and other GCC countries

2:53

laws exploit workers and discriminate

2:55

against migrants and the LGBTQ

2:58

plus community. But these stories

3:00

have also played out in the world's media in

3:02

a way that's felt to a lot of people

3:04

like it's unfair, lacking nuance,

3:07

and

3:07

even racism. Well, now we got used to

3:09

the hypocrisy and double standards for

3:12

the western countries.

3:15

And as we all noticed,

3:18

based on the massive antipsychotic

3:20

coverage, the western

3:22

media have an orientalist view

3:26

against Qatar hosting the biggest

3:28

football event.

3:29

We didn't quite know where to land on

3:31

this, how we should form an opinion

3:34

about

3:34

this World Cup. Frankly, it's been

3:36

complicated. And I think keep politics out

3:38

of sport, but when it comes to human rights, it's a bit

3:40

different. Yeah.

3:40

So since it started and because we're such

3:43

a global team, we've been going

3:45

out to speak with fans across the group.

3:47

I did see both sides of the debate, and I'm very,

3:49

like, present on the, like, the social media

3:51

topic, the controversies that happened. But it didn't

3:53

affect my opinion on it because I know it's just

3:55

fake woke. To get a sense of what people

3:57

make of it all, the personal highs and lows

3:59

of the tournament itself. So the Arabia

4:02

went so

4:03

strong today. I'm so proud of so daddy.

4:06

And in a world cup like this asking

4:08

if it's really possible to separate politics

4:10

from the sport. I feel like like, you

4:12

know, we're here for the game. We should just

4:14

enjoy the game, and that's it, honestly.

4:17

I'm gonna hand over to our wonderful

4:19

producers banment Cali in Jordan,

4:22

ahammed Ashud in Bahrain, and Alex

4:24

a tech in the UK.

4:30

Before we get into the nitty

4:32

gritty of this world cup, I

4:35

wonder if we can go back, like, way

4:37

back. And

4:39

try to think of your

4:42

earliest memory of the

4:44

World Cup or of watching the World Cup.

4:47

Or if not the earliest memory, then at

4:49

least the one that seems to

4:52

that stuck with you for a long time, that

4:54

resonates with you still today.

4:55

My one's really easy. I

4:57

don't know why I remember this so

4:59

clearly, but I so

5:01

two thousand and two That's great.

5:03

I would printing away from your left

5:05

here against Lucio. Michael O'Enrique is

5:07

a great judge, and he's

5:08

scored. Michael O'En.

5:11

Even got through to the course finals. And

5:14

I must've been like nine and ten,

5:16

and I'd like had a sleepover at

5:18

a friend's house. And Well,

5:20

he so he I still remember, like, where he lived. He

5:22

lived in the Hyre

5:23

Regency, like, apartment building

5:26

in Dera in Dubai. And

5:29

we'd say that all night, I guess,

5:31

with excitement because I think the game, like,

5:33

started really early in the morning in Dubai. And

5:35

I remember, like, we were supposed to go to sleep

5:37

and we couldn't and

5:41

were kind of like delirious from lack of sleep

5:43

as, like, ten year olds. And

5:45

I don't know if you remember Ronaldo's

5:48

free kick in that game that sent England

5:50

out. They're taking up the far post position

5:52

those two. He's really far out.

5:54

David Seaman in England goalie is not

5:56

expecting him to shoot at all,

5:59

and

5:59

he's like completely off his

6:02

line. Ronaldo takes a free kick.

6:04

And Oh, when shame has been

6:06

beaten, it's a go. It

6:09

hits this weird arc and sort of just

6:11

like sales completely over David Siemens' hand.

6:13

He scored direct from the free kick.

6:17

Ronald Dino is made in two

6:19

on Brazil. And everybody was

6:21

watching those in the penalty area. Maybe

6:24

semen was as well. The boy went

6:26

over his head. But that was my first memory of

6:28

the World Cup with this sort of concoction of,

6:30

like, devastation that England are

6:32

clearly going out. And I think we deserve to

6:34

lose that game, but also the, like,

6:37

I guess,

6:37

the beauty of it. That's pretty

6:39

poetic. That is that's such a vivid

6:42

memory. I don't know if I have I

6:44

mean, my my my first memory

6:46

was the ninety four World Cup. It was the

6:48

final

6:50

And

6:50

it's so funny. You know how you talk about

6:53

staying up late as a ten year old. That

6:54

was exactly me as as It

6:57

must have been later than we were allowed to stay

6:59

up, but there were lots of people. I couldn't tell

7:01

you who now family friends. And

7:04

I didn't grow up in a month, so I wasn't living here, but we were

7:06

here for the summer because World Cup's, except

7:08

for this one, usually happened in the summer.

7:10

And my parents dragged out this, like,

7:12

giant, like, huge

7:15

square, cuboid television,

7:17

sat to the balcony somehow. I don't know

7:19

how I don't know where they found their their

7:21

tech savvyness from. And we were all

7:23

gathered watching it outside at night and we remember

7:25

being allowed to stay up really late. And

7:28

and I remember at halftime,

7:31

kind of pretending to be the Brazilian footballers,

7:33

and we were, you know, playing downstairs

7:36

in the garage.

7:36

And then

7:39

a savor of Italy throughout

7:41

this tournament. He's

7:45

best dead at the zone.

7:47

Isn't that a cup? Just

7:48

remembering how ecstatic everybody

7:51

was when when Italy missed

7:53

that penalty and were

7:55

out of the tournament. It was a penalty final in

7:57

Brazil one and her member cheering and

7:59

just being being like, oh, I

8:01

guess I I guess I cheer for Brazil. Like,

8:03

not really understanding why. Right?

8:05

Which is really ironic because later in

8:07

life, I would go on to support Italy

8:10

in every World Cup. But it

8:12

was just it was so it was like from that

8:14

moment on you knew. Right? Like, you knew

8:16

you were always going to be emotionally

8:19

attached to this one thing. But

8:21

do you remember what it was about as a

8:24

kid watching teams

8:26

that you you weren't from either of those

8:28

countries, like, what is it about the World Cup

8:30

that has that effect I

8:32

don't think there is an alternative. I think in

8:34

our minds, other than

8:36

Saudi, funny enough, I don't really

8:38

remember

8:40

us even expecting

8:43

an an an Arab team, I forget team,

8:45

Jordan, but any Arab team

8:47

to actually be featured. Like, for us, it oh,

8:49

the World Cup was not really a

8:51

World Cup. It was exclusive to

8:53

European countries and Latin American

8:55

countries, and that more or less

8:57

continues to be the case. Although,

9:00

who knows, I have a I have a feeling maybe

9:02

this World Cup is changing how we

9:04

how we think about that a little bit.

9:06

How about what's your earliest

9:08

memory?

9:08

Yeah. Cut out twenty

9:11

twenty two. I'm not gonna lie. I'm

9:13

not that young, but I

9:15

will say my favorite world

9:16

cup memory is not related to the world cup

9:19

or to the football at all.

9:25

Because my earliest memory

9:27

of Shakira performing the

9:29

Bombo remix of Hip So My

9:31

at the inclusion ceremony of the two thousand

9:33

sets World Cup. And if

9:35

anyone asks me, what is the

9:37

performance that made you

9:39

say that culture, in

9:41

general, culture was a thing that I

9:43

would be interested didn't as a human

9:45

being, it would be that one performance

9:47

by Shakira, the two thousand six World

9:49

Cup ceremony.

9:59

And I could

10:02

you not for that performance,

10:04

I genuinely thought that

10:06

football must be the greatest

10:08

event on Earth if

10:10

The outcome of that sport would be

10:12

a performance by Shakira.

10:22

So I think this, like, gets me

10:24

thinking, you

10:26

know, this year specifically, Where

10:28

have you been watching the proceedings from this

10:30

year? Yeah.

10:32

Well, I gotta say so being in the

10:34

UK at the moment, it's it's a bit it's a

10:36

bit weird because I think in the UK,

10:38

at least, the World Cup is

10:40

so synonymous with the summer. And

10:42

I think it feels a little bit this time like

10:44

the UK doesn't quite know how to do a

10:46

winter World Cup. Like, it's kinda

10:48

weird. Like, you go into you go

10:51

to, like, a pub or something that

10:53

would that would show the game and

10:55

I a them have kind of been like pretty quiet. I

10:57

don't know if I'm just going to the wrong places, but

10:59

it it definitely

11:02

I haven't found a place yet that's

11:04

been, like, full.

11:05

It's so true that that that,

11:07

you know, it's funny you talk about it

11:09

being synonymous for the summer. I will say this whole idea of

11:11

it being in the winter is really bizarre and

11:13

it's so funny because I was out and about talking

11:15

to people while they're watching the

11:17

matches and I talking to

11:19

this ninth grader who was really excited

11:21

to talk. In school,

11:24

we put the we put the

11:26

games on the screen and we all all watch

11:28

together. Sit What great are you in? A90

11:30

no

11:30

way. That's

11:33

so cool. They have it up in school. Yeah.

11:35

And she's like, yeah, we all

11:37

watched the Saudi Argentina game at school

11:39

and I'm like at school. I think playing

11:42

World Cup matches for you. It's like, nobody ever

11:44

did that for us. And then I I realized --

11:46

Yeah. -- that we were always out

11:48

for the summer because, like, school was out in

11:50

the summer, so so we never had

11:52

that. And it was just so funny that

11:54

you're seeing this new generation, like,

11:56

being fully invested during

11:58

school hours. So I'm

11:59

a teacher, so we put it for our students

12:02

to watch. But I didn't get to watch it because I

12:04

had to watch the students. Hold

12:06

on a second. You you put the world cup. This is

12:09

like, I was just talking to a ninth girl. She's just like,

12:11

yeah, all the world cup is up in schools. I'm

12:13

like, what that never happened? Yes. Of

12:15

course, it is. The kids

12:17

wanted to leave. They wanted to go home

12:19

to watch the games. So And

12:21

they're like I'm under and was to

12:23

put it. I've been

12:25

so my journey with the World

12:27

Cup has started in Dubai, testing one

12:29

two, testing 12I

12:31

was there when the opening

12:33

ceremony, the opening match happened. And

12:35

the Dubai experience is marked by collective

12:38

fan zones. So there are a lot of

12:40

open air spaces where people are gathering.

12:43

It's very loud and there's a whole

12:45

pump and circumstance to it. But

12:47

this is an amazing experience. Like

12:49

as if we have gone to Qatar

12:51

and watching the real football, that's

12:53

a really good vibe. I was there opening

12:55

the opening ceremony for the opening

12:58

game and a lot of the people that I

13:00

talked to, interestingly, were

13:03

very pessimistic about the

13:05

way that Arab teams

13:07

were going to perform in the

13:09

games, and You know,

13:13

she spoke to me in Arabic

13:15

and she said, oh, the Saudi

13:17

game is happening in two days. I know

13:19

we're going to lose because it's against

13:21

Argentina, but

13:23

all we can hope for is that

13:25

we make our exit from the tournament

13:27

with grace. And,

13:30

you know, for the plot twist to come two days

13:32

later and for KSA

13:34

to win against Argentina, it was it was quite

13:36

funny to see that. That journey

13:38

reach an end. Watching

13:54

these

13:54

Arab teams surprise and

13:57

sort of crush our sense of

13:59

defeatism that

13:59

we are so attached to as a

14:02

pair of spectators. You know what

14:04

you asked, like, you know, what was it like

14:06

watching teams that didn't represent a

14:08

country that I come from and

14:10

having to support them and being like over them.

14:12

I think because we're kind of like accustomed

14:14

to watching other teams. And in

14:16

addition to Arab teams that are playing or

14:18

Middle Eastern teams that are playing in the World Cup, so

14:20

we feel like we kind of maybe

14:22

have maybe a slightly

14:24

better, like, understanding of what a

14:26

big deal it is for Saudi to then

14:28

beat Argentina or, like, how just

14:30

how insane it is, how me, more

14:32

worthy it is, and maybe when it your

14:34

your country's always being represented or

14:37

or countries from your continent or your region

14:39

or always being really, you know, well represented on

14:41

the world stage, then the attention's

14:43

always only been there and really know

14:45

where else. Maybe that's, like,

14:47

but I also feel like this is a chance to kind of shift

14:50

that.

14:54

Did you see

14:54

the the video of the South Korean

14:56

fan surprising the cutlery

14:58

news presenter when you can speak Arabic.

15:00

That's so wonderful. Mhmm.

15:02

So so good. German

15:04

win. Hello. Hello. How are you?

15:06

I'm fine. Where are you from? I'm from

15:08

South Korea. South Korea.

15:11

Nice. What happened, Korea?

15:13

It was

15:16

so sad because roast got kind

15:18

of it. But in China, we

15:20

will be In China, yes, we got a bit.

15:22

Yeah. So Well, can

15:30

it. I

15:46

I think one of one of

15:48

my favorite things is is that humor that's

15:50

being captured, like, the very Arab

15:52

sense of humor that's being captured

15:54

as a cross action with other cultures and

15:56

then being documented all over like

15:58

social media platforms like I

15:59

can't believe TikTok is part of this

16:02

experience,

16:02

but It's kind of that

16:04

is special because, you

16:06

know, we've always watched the World

16:08

Cup in really distant.

16:10

Locations, you know, at least when I say

16:12

distant distant to where I've grown

16:14

up and where I've lived and and it's

16:16

always seemed like it's, you

16:18

know, something so intangible.

16:19

You know, Brazil. Oh my goodness.

16:21

All the way in Brazil. Wow. What a dream? It's

16:23

just a dream. It's not something that's tangible.

16:25

And then now it's kind of made its

16:27

way next door. So even though I'm not there.

16:30

And and in fact, I don't think I

16:32

was ever even that excited, all

16:34

excited about the the idea of

16:36

of cut out hosting it for various reasons that we'll

16:38

get into next. But the idea now that it's

16:41

happening and I'm watching all of this and and there's like

16:43

all these moments of Arab sense

16:45

of humor that's being

16:47

that's embedded into the legacy of

16:49

this World Cup or the identity of

16:51

this World Cup is is so much fun

16:53

to watch.

16:53

where did with know

16:55

I don't think there's a single Saudi fan who did not

16:58

go up to a news reporter

17:00

from whatever country and ask where is

17:02

missing.

17:02

Where is missing? I have one question. Yeah.

17:04

Ask all the eighty hotels in

17:07

Elizabeth. Okay. Elizabeth.

17:09

And then to watch the world

17:12

actually be part of

17:12

that. It's it's such an experience in

17:15

and of itself. I mean, it's nice

17:17

to export that for a

17:19

change and know, I think they've got a good sense of

17:21

humor. I think

17:22

flipside of that

17:24

coin is also you

17:27

know, going into this game, there was a

17:29

lot of How do

17:31

you say this? Lack of

17:34

clarity about how people should

17:36

feel. Towards this year's games.

17:38

I don't

17:38

think there's I don't think the coverage is

17:41

lost on anyone anymore. I think it's so,

17:43

you know, there are There's

17:45

accusations of human rights violations

17:47

of corruption, of

17:51

discrimination against LGBT queue

17:53

people, and I think

17:55

criticism is valid.

17:58

I

17:59

don't know

18:00

that it is entirely

18:03

reflective. Or the way that it's being or the way that the

18:05

criticism is being covered,

18:08

it seems like it's lacking something.

18:11

Speaking for myself, I was

18:13

conflicted. I didn't know how to feel about

18:15

what anymore. I find

18:17

myself, you know, very drawn

18:19

to the World Cup in general. I always

18:21

have been

18:23

But I care about the things. Right? I care about

18:25

the issues. I they're happening in

18:28

my region. Something needs to

18:30

change, but there was something that

18:32

felt like an attack

18:34

And there's some it was part of it like it was an an attack

18:36

and it was a bit misdirected. And

18:38

I think that's where we all kind of had

18:41

our opinions, and I didn't know how to form an opinion about

18:43

this. And so we went out and we kind of tried to get

18:45

a sense from people all around the

18:47

world, how are they feeling? What are they because you've

18:49

also seen Maria to this. And I don't know if this is

18:51

being translated to the world at large,

18:53

but you're seeing a very strong reaction. What do

18:55

you mean from the Middle East?

18:57

And I think is much more high end when it's

18:59

an arab country and I get it. There's a lot

19:01

to say and that's not to eradicate

19:05

outside of spots, I'm sure there's

19:07

shortcomings and plenty some, but

19:09

please keep the same energy, hold all

19:11

countries to the same standard, and then we

19:13

can talk. Keep that same

19:15

energy for a pass host, for Russia,

19:17

for Brazil, and for future hosts like

19:19

the United States and others. To be honest,

19:21

it doesn't stop you guys from, like,

19:23

watching a sport does not stop

19:25

me one bit because it's virtuous

19:27

signaling, it's bias, and it's

19:29

always who has it. And I don't know that I agree with that

19:31

either. Right? Like, there's there's there's

19:33

somewhere where this conversation needs to be a little bit

19:36

more I don't know what the word

19:38

is. Like, a more

19:40

specific conversation. I I don't know how I still

19:42

don't know. Don't think I still I still don't think I

19:44

have an answer. Yeah.

19:46

It it is

19:48

a vicious cycle. I

19:50

will say. There's criticism pointed

19:53

at Qatar for all of the human

19:55

rights violations. You know,

19:58

the continued remuneration of the LGBT q plus community in

19:59

Qatar, in the gulf and in the Arab

20:02

world, etcetera etcetera. But

20:05

then what that leads to is

20:07

you know, many many members of the of

20:09

the Arab community here being

20:12

like,

20:12

you're pointing

20:14

your finger at us, but you haven't held

20:16

the mirror to Which is absolutely correct.

20:18

I don't know. It's a hard one. I spoke

20:20

to a fan. My name is Jonathan Title.

20:23

A nice Irish a fan that I met at a

20:25

fan zone in Dubai. Oh, you got a chair

20:27

on Brazil. Brazil never

20:30

harmed anybody. They've got their reinforce. That

20:32

gives us life. And he,

20:35

I think, articulated

20:38

why what I have been feeling so well, which

20:40

is it's a hard one. So

20:42

I'm torn because on one

20:44

hand, Freedom of speech -- Yeah. -- freedom of expression,

20:47

gay rights. They're all great

20:49

things and they should be promoted. But on the

20:51

other hand, if it's someone's religion

20:53

that thing a sin. How do you approach

20:55

it? So I'm very torn. I think that

20:57

if it was my call, I would

20:59

say, I lie everything because

21:01

It's just the right thing to do. Yeah. But how do we go to

21:04

someone else's country and tell them what to

21:06

do? That's why I'm torn. The

21:08

discourse, I think, will die down

21:10

And before you know it, I think

21:12

the next

21:13

mega event is gonna roll around

21:16

wherever criticism

21:18

is going to be leveled at it,

21:20

and it's just gonna repeat itself. And

21:22

I I don't know. I just feel like the lifespan

21:24

of this discourse is

21:27

never really

21:29

long lasting in such a way

21:31

that it's

21:33

actually makes it significant in the long

21:35

run. But wouldn't that be good if it was

21:37

in a way? I mean, I feel like part

21:39

of the problem here is that

21:41

the organizers of the World Cup

21:43

both on the Qatari side and from

21:46

FIFA, like a complete sort of

21:48

unwillingness to engage in any of the

21:50

criticisms like I totally agree that there's

21:52

definitely been a lot of anti air racism in the

21:54

way that it's been talked about

21:56

and portrayed in

21:58

at least the UK media, like the

21:59

BBC's decision to not even broadcast the

22:02

opening ceremony, I think, was unprecedented.

22:04

And

22:04

instead they started

22:05

it with a with a thing about kind

22:08

of highlighting all of the the issues of the

22:10

World Cup. It's the most controversial

22:12

World Cup in history when a ball

22:14

hasn't even been kicked. I

22:16

still don't know how I feel about that, but

22:18

I I almost feel like The small

22:19

explanation. Wouldn't it be good if it

22:21

was like an opportunity to engage

22:25

with some of the issues that have come up during the construction

22:27

of the World Cup instead of

22:29

shutting it down. And I feel like

22:31

when you try and shut it down, it makes it

22:33

worse in a way. I

22:35

feel like that that's totally fair and I

22:37

I feel like that the ideal, right, should

22:39

be that you do both. Right? It

22:41

will have will have to see how

22:44

how accountability becomes a part of this

22:46

in future world cups and I and I hope

22:48

I hope it does. I think one of

22:50

the things that

22:51

was worth thinking about

22:53

is this idea of separating the

22:55

sport from from the host

22:58

or from, you know, from from sporting

23:00

nations. And and and can you really do

23:02

that Is that a thing

23:04

that that is even attainable?

23:06

We'll be back after this

23:08

quick

23:09

break.

23:12

The always ready for

23:15

breakfast deal. Going to bed

23:17

already? Yep. Breakfast at Mickey D's

23:19

tomorrow. So Soon, I go to bed.

23:21

Soon, it'll be morning. Soon, I'll be at

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Mickey D's. This is actually

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light. There's a deal for every

23:29

brick fit strategist at McDonald's.

23:31

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like a sausage biscuit, sausage mcmuffin,

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regular price.

23:43

Well,

23:46

So

23:46

Iran have been one of the teams who have had

23:49

lots of, like, political sort

23:51

of discussions surrounding their football

23:53

team this World Cup. And

23:55

Me

23:55

and Al Shevani, who's another producer

23:57

at Conning Cultures, went to an

23:59

Iranian

23:59

cafe in North London. To

24:05

watch the game with a

24:07

bunch of really lovely

24:10

sort of middle aged and

24:12

older Iranian guys. I'm

24:15

so forth Iran because I'm originally

24:17

from Iran. But,

24:19

you know, the people in Iran, they are interested

24:21

in the football and soccer. But

24:23

unfortunately, in this situation,

24:25

I don't know, you know what's happening in Iran.

24:28

Right? We found that on

24:30

display immediately that you can't

24:32

separate the politics from the football event.

24:34

Like, we had an idea that we just

24:36

sort of watch the game with them

24:38

and talk to them about the football and talk

24:40

to them about what it means for them to be

24:42

watching around in the World Cup.

24:44

But immediately, like, People would spend

24:47

five seconds talking about that and then would turn to

24:49

the politics of it. This World

24:51

Cup is a good opportunity for

24:53

the player. They have

24:55

this opportunity to talk we

24:57

hope on the people and

24:59

say what's happening in the era right

25:02

now. I mean, I think think for everyone at

25:04

least in that cafe, it was it was

25:06

really difficult because on the

25:08

one hand, they wanted a team

25:10

to win because, obviously, I want your team to win. But on

25:12

the other hand, a lot of them told us that

25:15

if Iran

25:16

won and if Iran did well in the World Cup, it

25:18

would be used as a sort of win

25:20

for the regime that all of

25:22

them were against especially, you know,

25:24

with all of the protests and the violence

25:27

that's been directed towards protesters in Iran over the

25:29

last couple of months. To be honest,

25:31

for ninety minutes, we try

25:33

to be not look

25:35

at the game as a politics, you know. But

25:38

the thing is our

25:41

heart, without people, but

25:43

we are confused.

25:45

But the thing here is

25:47

we want to win the football as

25:49

well. But we know if we win the

25:51

football the regime

25:53

in Iran used this

25:55

for themselves, you know? No.

25:57

Yes. As a propaganda. Yeah.

25:59

It's like

25:59

really fraught and really difficult because

26:02

that half time, everyone was

26:03

telling us like, oh, we don't even want Iran to

26:06

win. Like, you know, if if if

26:08

they win, it's a win for the

26:10

regime. And then, like, the game would start and

26:12

they'd be, like, standing up in their chairs. Like,

26:14

that was offside. I think it's a penalty.

26:18

I love that. So yeah, I don't

26:20

know. Like, I think that whole thing of separating the politics from

26:23

the football, I think any attempt to do that

26:25

is kind of misguided, especially in this

26:27

World Cup, but in any World Cup,

26:29

really.

26:30

But

26:31

Alex, you know, indulge me in

26:34

in a little bit of suspension of

26:36

disbelief here where I'm

26:38

in the stadium premises right before

26:40

the game. And

26:44

American fans are chanting

26:46

and then come along the Iranian

26:48

fans, and then they

26:50

are together, they're

26:52

singing, they're chanting, and then they

26:54

separate, and they come back

26:56

together. And let's

26:58

be real. I'm I'm not a US

27:00

Iran relations expert. I'm never going to

27:02

claim that I am, but I think

27:04

I have a general understanding that let's just say

27:06

US and Iran are not on

27:08

the same page. But

27:11

in that moment to see

27:15

those sorts of squabbles

27:17

on a national international

27:20

level, if you will, be

27:22

suspended for a moment to just see

27:24

people celebrating the sports. I

27:27

mean, it was just one of those moments where I

27:29

was like, Maybe

27:32

for the span of these two to three

27:34

hours, we can

27:36

suspend the rules

27:37

for a little there was

27:39

just something bad that felt very

27:43

idyllic in Ethiopian, and I'm not saying that the world

27:45

is rainbows and ponies because of

27:47

football, even though I think that's very

27:49

easy answer and a lot of people would say that football

27:51

is rainbows and pennies. But

27:53

I must say, I was

27:56

riding a pony on top of that rainbow

27:58

that day.

27:58

harper

28:04

I I think before it started, like,

28:07

even up to even up to, like, the day

28:09

of the opening ceremony, I

28:11

think, based on

28:13

coverage and things have been seen even over

28:15

over the years. By the time you got to the

28:17

opening ceremony, I was I was like,

28:19

this is not gonna go well. Honestly, this

28:21

was my This is not gonna go well for

28:23

them. It's just gonna be like a

28:25

complete mess and it's going to fall

28:27

apart and there's so much bad coverage and

28:29

this has been a PR nightmare. This

28:31

was a this was a bad idea. But

28:33

the more I don't know. Like, again,

28:35

not to do the whole pony and rainbows

28:37

thing, but it feels like the

28:39

football has has rescued them from that

28:41

image a little bit. And and part of it has

28:43

been, yes, these, like, surprising outlandish

28:47

moments from Arab seems impressing

28:50

where you

28:50

completely had zero expectations of

28:53

them.

28:53

And And I think from what

28:55

I've been at least from a lot of people, I've I've

28:57

spoken to, they have been quite impressed

28:59

with the organization. They've been

29:01

impressed with the experience there. The is

29:03

amazing. The people are so

29:06

friendly. Free Visa.

29:07

the Free

29:08

fans on DJ's

29:11

famous singers famous

29:14

DJ's free transportation metro

29:18

this way. Metro this

29:20

way. Like, the

29:20

vibe, the atmosphere, everything

29:23

that you were kinda like criticizing me from

29:25

afar, people are really praising when once they're

29:27

there and I feel like

29:29

it's shifting a little bit as

29:31

we as we go forward, and I think it will

29:33

end up for better or worse. I think

29:35

in the future, this will

29:37

definitely help cut out whether, you know, I

29:39

think people will forget a lot of things will

29:41

dissolve as they work on their PR going

29:43

forward, which now this has given the momentum to

29:46

do so. But in general

29:48

for the region, I don't

29:50

know that it's gonna change

29:52

anything necessarily, and I don't think this,

29:54

like, sense of, like,

29:56

Arab unity, Arabs, cheering for Arabs,

29:58

you know, people bringing

30:00

in Palestine into this World Cup unapologetically

30:03

for the first time ever on a world

30:06

stage. That is unprecedented. Like, all of this

30:08

is so beautiful right now, but

30:10

not to be a complete pessimist. But I think

30:12

it's gonna fade once the

30:14

world is done. I last much longer.

30:16

Well, I

30:16

I also just hope that it's like a it

30:19

makes

30:19

people more comfortable in the future with

30:22

criticizing future cups?

30:24

Because, like, there's

30:26

been, obviously, there's been so much criticism

30:28

Qatar, which I think is

30:30

justified to an extent. I

30:32

think I have more of an issue with

30:34

the tone of it and the way it's delivered, but I

30:36

think the actual content of

30:38

it is valid. But

30:40

I sadly don't see that happening with

30:42

the North American World Cup next

30:45

time. But but at what I would hope that

30:47

is that, like, this everything

30:49

that's happened around Qatar and all

30:51

the documentaries on Netflix we've seen and

30:53

the podcast and everything that's

30:55

been written. I think in some ways

30:57

it's peeled back anybody was under

30:59

any illusion that FIFA was not a

31:01

corrupt organization before, this

31:04

complete change with this World Cup. And I and I just

31:06

hope that

31:07

Yeah. Some of the conversations that we've been

31:10

having around this World Cup, like, continue for

31:12

future World Cups. Yeah. I think

31:13

there's just one thing to remember at the end of

31:16

the day, Even people who are

31:18

conflicted, you know, who do have these moral dilemmas

31:20

continue to watch it because

31:22

it's still a people's thing. It's still a people's

31:25

sport. You know, the footballers that are

31:27

playing are are probably people who

31:29

have come from very humble backgrounds,

31:31

who are living out like an incredible dream

31:33

that one in the Brazilian people get to

31:35

live and And then the people who are

31:37

watching that are are connected to that

31:39

sentiment and that

31:41

emotion of it all, that culture of it all, and

31:43

that stays with the people regardless

31:45

of what organizing body or

31:47

organizing state or or all the

31:49

drama behind it. And I I feel maybe

31:51

that's what keeps people

31:53

drawn and keeps them willing to watch

31:56

despite these moral dilemmas that are

31:58

happening in the background. So we

31:59

need to we need to overflow fee for

32:02

replace it with a Love it. Like, lots of

32:04

us. People run.

32:06

Yeah. A socialist revenue.

32:09

Let's have socialist. Oh

32:11

my god. Well, folks, I I

32:13

guess, to wrap on a lighter note, I'm

32:15

curious to hear you

32:17

know, it's been your favorite moment so far from the past

32:19

couple of weeks of games.

32:22

Well, it's gonna be Morocco. It's

32:24

gotta be Morocco.

32:25

I

32:30

mean, honestly, at the start,

32:32

like, even in the in the group stages, I was like,

32:35

gosh. Like,

32:35

they're impressing. When they when they first beat Belgium,

32:37

I think it was. Plus one.

32:40

Four

32:41

in Texas. I was like, oh, cool, but

32:43

we have to keep

32:43

in mind that there are a couple of, like, Arab teams that

32:46

were also surprising in the group stage. Like, I

32:48

think Tunisia beat France at

32:50

some point. We've

32:50

mentioned Saudi before, Kerning So

32:53

it's kind of like, I felt like, oh, okay. Here's another

32:55

here's another round

32:58

of exciting football that is

33:00

just gonna go nowhere. But then Jamie,

33:02

that superstar football. It's

33:11

just insane. Watching this

33:14

unfold in our lifetime.

33:22

I mean,

33:28

generation after

33:29

generation World Cup after World Cup you've

33:32

been watching? And there's always like

33:34

this little bit of hope

33:36

that we cling onto and

33:38

nothing really comes of it. But then

33:40

Morocco steps steps in In

33:42

twenty twenty two, pinch me is

33:43

this real? And boom,

33:46

explosion. I mean, this is this is like

33:48

a dream for I mean, before

33:50

the world cup start, we were just thinking we're

33:52

gonna go, you know, play three games and come

33:54

back. It's a feeling that I cannot

33:56

describe for now. Like when the court cup

33:58

is over, we need to change the mentality

34:01

of just being pessimistic, oh, we're gonna

34:03

go play three games and come back.

34:06

you know, why we're not gonna reach the final.

34:08

Why, like, you know, when

34:10

the world come? Just because you

34:13

an African country or Arab country. That

34:15

doesn't mean we we can't

34:17

do it.

34:18

But I think the the other the other

34:20

really beautiful thing about watching

34:22

Morocco excel and actually kind

34:25

of

34:25

achieve a milestone

34:28

in football for an Arab

34:30

nation the first time we see an Arab

34:32

country advanced to the stage of the

34:34

World Cup. And that

34:36

has created this in same

34:40

reaction from fans across the Middle

34:42

East. I don't think I've

34:44

ever seen so many people

34:46

cheer for same team at the same time

34:48

across the whole region. And and I think

34:50

it's also it's

34:52

kind of It's

34:54

triggered this this sense of Arab identity that I think

34:57

has been lacking for a very long time.

34:59

And and you see that holiday.

35:02

And and you see it, I think I mean,

35:04

Ahmed, you can probably speak more to this

35:06

since you are in Doha, but you can see it in

35:08

the fan base there. I mean,

35:10

it's insane videos that are coming out

35:12

of there in the fan

35:13

zones and in the streets. Yeah. Between

35:15

the videos that we were getting from

35:17

a couple of our members

35:20

in Morocco and the

35:22

sight and scenes in Doha,

35:24

it it felt like

35:27

a celebration like no

35:29

other. You know, obviously being the first Arab nation to

35:31

get this far in the tournament,

35:34

it was I think

35:36

something that

35:38

we all could take pride in and

35:40

be a part of. You don't

35:42

get the You don't get those kinds of moments.

35:45

Well, these days. Would

35:48

you would you go as far to say that this World Cup moment

35:50

has topped Shigira's bamboo

35:52

remix of hits don't lie? As

35:55

you as you're a new favorite.

35:58

Welcome

35:59

moment. You

36:02

know what, I think it

36:05

has. I think it has. But I

36:07

guess one moment that really

36:09

really stuck with me

36:11

at the end the game when the team

36:13

huddled together. And a lot of them had

36:16

the Moroccan flag on their backs

36:18

and and obviously, you know,

36:20

it was beautiful moment

36:22

of national pride, but

36:24

then it seemed like they were waiting

36:26

for a moment before they they have their team

36:28

picture taken where they're waiting for

36:30

a flag to unfurl.

36:33

And before you know it,

36:35

it's not the Moroccan flag. It's

36:38

the pop Sydian flag and to

36:40

witness that, to have

36:43

that victory be

36:48

celebrated with the presence of the

36:50

Palestinian flag. I think was something that

36:52

was just so I

36:54

don't know what the word is. I

36:58

think what makes

37:01

that moment so

37:03

epic is that I think for them

37:06

for it to then enter the stadium

37:08

at a moment that is

37:10

historic that for the,

37:12

you know, for for the very first time,

37:14

this will be on your Wikipedia pages

37:17

forever more, that Morocco has

37:19

advanced thus far. And when they did, they

37:21

were carrying the Palestinian flag. That

37:23

is going down in history for it to

37:25

be so such a point of focus

37:27

on a global

37:30

stage is is amazing. And

37:31

I think the Moroccan fans have already

37:33

demonstrated that. Now their team is

37:35

also demonstrating that, which

37:38

is huge. I don't know if people can

37:40

grasp that, but it's massive. I

37:42

mean, I think you put those two things

37:44

together and it's

37:47

it's poetry. You

37:57

know, once you turn my kids,

37:58

like, when when they gotta grow

37:59

up, you know, I gotta

38:01

yeah. Gonna tell them I

38:03

was

38:04

there. I

38:06

attended every single game in twenty two with a special one Morocco.

38:08

We we live

38:11

in the dream.

38:32

This episode was

38:34

produced by Banbad

38:35

Kawi, Alex Atac and Ahmed

38:38

Ashwood, with help from

38:40

Saturday shift Youssef

38:46

doazu, and Zena do we

38:49

die. Was edited by Saturday Chek and me,

38:51

Dina Balut. Sound design was by Monter de

38:53

la Hashim, and our team includes Nadine Saket

38:56

and Finbar

38:58

Anderson. Our sister podcast, Masa Fads, has also

39:00

released an episode about Casa's World

39:02

Cup in Arabic. And to hear

39:04

that, and other incredible stories like this

39:07

one from the Middle East and North Africa and all the

39:09

spaces in between. Search Mass

39:12

Effect, MASAFAT

39:14

in your podcast app. We'll be

39:17

back with a new episode next week. Thank you so much for listening. And

39:19

I hope you enjoyed this World Cup

39:21

madness as much

39:22

as we did.

39:25

It's great meeting you. I hope your

39:27

podcast is brilliant. I've only met you for thirty seconds, but I'm sure

39:29

it's the goddamn best podcast in the world.

39:31

You know, it's probably better than the

39:33

Joe Rogen experience. And

39:35

that's the fact that's the fact fact, I'm gonna check

39:38

it out.