0:04

Hi, it's Dana. We're

0:06

taking this week out to finish our next episode,

0:08

so in the meantime, we wanted to re-air

0:11

one of our favorite episodes from the Kurnan Cultures

0:13

archives. This one came out

0:15

in 2020, and it's about the little-known

0:17

stories behind two street names, one

0:20

in Tahirah

0:21

and one in Khudtoum.

0:23

We'll be back next Thursday with a brand new episode.

0:26

See you then.

0:30

On the 23rd of June 2020, the

0:32

New York Times published an article called

0:34

How to Rename a Street.

0:37

Choose the street carefully. Roadways

0:40

with few or no addresses, like highways,

0:42

are the easiest to rename. The article

0:44

was written in the wake of the Black Lives

0:46

Matter movement in the US this year, as

0:49

activists and ordinary citizens fought

0:51

injustice inside their buildings and

0:54

on the streets.

0:56

Here's producer Zaina Duitar reading from

0:58

this article. Changing street names

1:00

cannot fix injustice, but don't underestimate

1:03

its power either. So

1:05

while we all know the names of our streets…

1:08

The name of the street I live on is Gneiststrasse.

1:11

Oh, okay, Kitasuru Road. My

1:13

street is a number, so it's not very exciting.

1:16

It's called Aarhuschonk.

1:17

How many of us actually know the meanings

1:20

behind those names? Absolutely

1:22

not, no. I have no

1:23

idea, actually. I could ask. That's

1:26

a really good question. Do you know

1:28

what your street name means? When

1:30

it was put up? By whom? And

1:33

how much do these names even

1:35

matter? Ask who and what

1:38

the street names around you commemorate. But

1:41

why do we have street names in the first place?

1:44

This is producer Zainan Zuitar. Well, there's

1:46

obvious

1:46

points about navigation, just being able to find

1:49

each other. This is Deirdre Masque, and

1:51

she's the author of a book called The Address

1:53

Book. The Address Book, what street addresses

1:55

reveal about identity, race,

1:57

wealth, and power.

2:00

talk to her to understand why we should have

2:02

street names in the first place. And

2:04

in a lot of ways, this, you know, having named streets

2:06

and house numbers builds community because you can

2:08

find each other easily, you know, not just people

2:10

you know, but people

2:11

who don't know you. It sort of fosters a

2:13

sense of community in an area. It also

2:15

makes it easier to do practical things in

2:17

our everyday lives. You know, it makes

2:19

it easier to vote, it makes it easier to get

2:21

bank accounts, it makes it easier to get credit, and

2:23

it makes it easier to access, you know, other

2:26

aspects of life and community around

2:28

the world.

2:29

street names don't just help us practically.

2:32

They shape the neighborhoods around them as well.

2:35

Street names become part of the language of a

2:37

city, Alderman says, and then

2:39

they become part of the psyche of the people. Obviously

2:42

the act of naming something, a building,

2:45

a bridge, a street, it's

2:47

a commemoration of something.

2:50

It's a commemoration of some history,

2:54

but who's history? And

2:56

so today we wanted to look a little closer

2:58

at the places we live, the streets around

3:00

us, and the stories they're holding up to us every

3:03

day as we walk or drive along them.

3:05

We have two stories for you about two different

3:08

streets, one in Tehran and

3:10

one in Khartoum, thousands of

3:12

kilometers apart from each other, but they

3:14

share a depth of history unknown to

3:16

most, and their stories are

3:19

pretty fascinating.

3:20

I'm Hibba Fisher, and this is Kerning

3:22

Cultures, stories from the Middle Eastern North

3:24

Africa and the spaces in between.

3:28

And one story that always kind of captures my imagination.

3:34

The streets lost culture. And

3:40

you're listening to kerning cultures.

3:46

Here's Zaina starting with the story about

3:48

a small street in Tehran called Babi

3:50

San Street. So we're

3:52

not actually starting the story in Tehran.

3:55

The story instead starts in Belfast

3:57

in the 80s. at the beginning of the 1980s. Ireland

4:00

was plunged into political turmoil.

4:05

Northern Ireland was now experiencing rioting

4:08

on a scale not seen for many years. Last

4:11

place, I'll be gone. Appeals

4:13

went out for thousands of people packing a cemetery

4:15

to stay down and calm down. More

4:18

grenades were thrown.

4:25

Let me give you some context. Are

4:28

you Zina? Yes, I'm Zaino. Zaino,

4:30

please to meet you. This is Donnie Morrison.

4:33

I am almost 68 years of age, and

4:36

I have been involved in republicanism

4:39

and in the struggle against British truth

4:41

in Ireland from my mid teens.

4:44

And I'm not sure if your listeners are familiar with

4:47

politics in Ireland, but our country

4:50

was partitioned against the wishes

4:52

of the majority of the people by the British

4:55

almost 100 years ago. We've grown

4:57

used to the idea of getting out nowadays, but

5:00

in 1922, when British troops left

5:02

Athlone and handed over to the IRA, it

5:04

was a less familiar experience. So

5:07

in the south of Ireland, which is today called the

5:09

Republic of Ireland, is largely

5:11

independent. It's a member of the European

5:13

Union. This was the end for the British troops

5:16

and their hated auxiliaries, the Black and Tans,

5:18

of the fight against Sinn Féin.

5:20

So, you know, you have the United Kingdom,

5:22

which includes the island of Britain, which

5:24

is England, Wales, and Scotland,

5:27

but it also

5:27

includes the very top bit of Ireland.

5:30

Many Northern Irish people feel as though

5:32

they should be part of the independent country of

5:34

Ireland and not under British rule.

5:37

We were subjugated and made

5:39

second-class citizens in our own

5:41

country.

5:46

We will say to Mother England, you

5:48

have forfeited any right you ever

5:50

claimed to govern any

5:52

part of this country.

5:53

We drive you to the boat,

5:56

Mother Angel. And

6:00

so being a Republican meant fighting

6:02

for the unification of Ireland. But

6:05

the reason we're talking to Danny about Irish history

6:07

is because of one man. Bobby Sands.

6:11

Bobby Sands was a very, very ordinary guy. Bobby

6:13

Sands was one of the... Bobby Sands. I only knew Bobby

6:15

Sands up until he was like 17. To

6:18

be honest, I never thought he would end up as

6:20

he did.

6:22

I mean, it shocked me. Danny

6:26

and Bobby met at a very unlikely place.

6:29

Prison. He was moving past

6:31

our cage one night in the dark.

6:34

Several hundred other prisoners were being shifted from

6:37

one camp to another. And I met him

6:39

at the fence.

6:40

And what was he like as

6:42

a person? Like what was his

6:44

character like or his disposition?

6:47

Well, first of all, he was quite,

6:49

he could be quite humorous.

6:51

But he was also quite serious. serious

6:53

and he was one of the most determined people

6:55

I had ever come across. When you were in

6:57

his company you knew that

6:59

you were in the presence of someone

7:02

special. During what was known as

7:04

the Troubles, which was a 30-year period

7:06

of conflict between Northern Ireland and the British

7:09

over the identity of Northern Ireland, many

7:12

activists and protesters were thrown into

7:14

prisons by the British government to try

7:16

and deter others from following suit. I

7:18

ask those

7:19

who will quite sincerely consider

7:21

the use of internment powers as evil,

7:24

to answer honestly this question,

7:27

is it more of an evil than

7:29

to allow the perpetrators of these outrages

7:32

to remain at liberty?

7:33

When Bobby was 27, he had already

7:36

spent over one third of his life in prison,

7:38

for charges such as firearms possession.

7:41

During his time in prison, Bobby became

7:44

officer commanding of the IRA prisoners,

7:46

which was the political party he and Danny

7:48

were a part of,

7:49

and they They organized a series of protests

7:52

to protect their rights as political prisoners.

8:02

Although Republicans had for years been

8:04

treated like political prisoners or prisoners

8:07

of war, which meant exemptions from wearing prison

8:09

uniforms or doing prison work, for instance,

8:12

the special status was revoked in 1976, as

8:15

the British government sought to squash the movement.

8:18

They were badly beaten for

8:20

over four and a half years, held a solitary

8:22

confinement. At one stage illegally put

8:25

on a bread and water debt. They

8:27

were regularly hosed down and they

8:29

lived in horrific conditions. So Bobby

8:32

and his comrades went on hunger

8:34

strike. A Republican prisoner at the May's

8:36

prison in Northern Ireland refused breakfast

8:38

this morning and says he will fast to the

8:40

death to achieve his aim of political status.

8:43

What followed was not only an intense battle

8:45

of wits between the British government and the IRA,

8:48

but a bitter fight to the air. I'm

8:50

never saying in my country that

8:53

if all the political prisoners of

8:55

the world were free

8:57

and of all those who put them in jail,

8:59

were in jail, we'd have a decent

9:01

world.

9:04

Well we led it, he was the first person

9:06

on the 1st of March 1981 and I

9:09

visited him maybe 19 times prior

9:13

to the hunger strike and

9:16

he was quite determined.

9:17

Do you think if he does go into a coma, you would

9:19

give the authorization for him to be intravenously

9:22

bad? No, he told me not to. It's

9:25

a sad thing to say and I would feel

9:27

it. I love my son,

9:30

just like any other mother does, but

9:33

I wouldn't. I can't ask

9:35

him enough to end up promised. Days

9:37

passed and then weeks, and the hunger

9:39

strikers quickly began gaining international

9:42

attention.

9:42

A stunt for the publicity

9:45

that he could get out of it, then everybody comes running.

9:47

Not only the Human Rights Commission, but every

9:50

American crank that's possible.

10:00

So, for example, even the Pope sent

10:02

his secretary over to talk to Bobby

10:05

Sands to ask him to end it. And

10:07

Bobby said, look, you shouldn't be talking to me. Talk

10:09

to Mrs. Thatcher. Mr. Thatcher's line

10:11

on the hunger strike was emphatic from

10:13

the start. In other words, there is no political

10:16

justification for murder. You can have

10:18

a blanket protest. You can have a dirty protest.

10:21

You can go on the hunger strike. If you want to kill yourselves,

10:23

that's up to you. But there is nothing that's going

10:25

to move me on the question that murder

10:27

is murder is murder, as she once put it. In

10:29

that sense,

10:30

what you have from the government at the start is a fairly

10:32

inflexible and formidable start. After 66 days...

10:35

In the last hour, the news has filtered through to this

10:37

community. Bobby Sands was the first hunger

10:40

striker to die. Bobby Sands is

10:42

dead. The 27-year-old member of the Irish

10:44

Republican Army, who went on a protest

10:46

hunger strike 66 days ago, has

10:49

died.

10:49

Bobby's story went global. Thousands

10:51

of people across the world resonated with

10:54

his story. Reactions from abroad to his death

10:56

has ranged from concern of its possible effects

10:58

in Northern Ireland to criticism of Britain. Especially

11:01

in Iran.

11:03

To learn more about this, I spoke with Ronny

11:05

Clos.

11:05

Yeah, hi. Ronny's a

11:07

professor of visual media at the American

11:09

University in Cairo. And I've

11:12

been researching for my PhD

11:14

actually 10 years ago. The connections

11:17

between Irish republicanism and

11:19

Iranian politics.

11:21

At the time, Iran was going through

11:23

its own turmoil. For the last seven days,

11:26

Tehran and other cities have seen violent

11:28

clashes between troops and demonstrators

11:30

demanding Khomeini's return.

11:32

The Iranian revolution was in 1979, and

11:35

in 1980, Iraq invaded Iran. But

11:40

what connected Bobby Sands' struggle

11:42

with Iran? I'm not so much sure if they

11:44

cared

11:44

so much for the reunification of Ireland, but I think

11:46

the Iranians shared, many Iranians at least,

11:49

shared a conman enemy with Bobby Sands,

11:51

which was the British.

11:51

The British and their American allies had

11:54

a heavy hand in Iranian affairs, particularly

11:56

in the years leading up to the Iranian revolution

11:59

in 1970.

12:00

which established Iran

12:02

as an Islamic Republic.

12:03

So I think some of the appeal was

12:05

that it was anti, you know, he was seen as a

12:08

symbol of anti-colonialism, anti-British

12:11

rule. It was an irritant

12:13

to the British legacy in

12:15

Tehran.

12:16

But there's another reason many Iranians

12:18

connected so closely to Bobby's death.

12:21

Because of that war with Iraq,

12:24

a lot of their ability to respond

12:26

was actually true, quite

12:29

horrific, sort of martyrdom.

12:31

With many casualties in the war, religious

12:34

leaders broadened the definition of a martyr in

12:36

order to get more men to join the cause against

12:38

Iraq.

12:39

They announced that all fatalities of the war

12:42

were to be considered martyrs for the country

12:44

and therefore for Islam. As

12:46

such, martyrdom became very prominent

12:48

in the war

12:49

with Iranians organizing human wave

12:51

attacks against the Iraqis.

12:53

Yeah, I mean, there was almost like you could say, almost

12:55

like a cult or an institution of martyrdom

12:58

in Iran. So for many Iranians, Bobby

13:00

was a martyr too. And also another

13:03

much more official connection actually between

13:05

the government and republicanism

13:08

was that the-

13:10

Ronnie told me that one day in

13:12

July 1981, the Iranian

13:14

ambassador to Sweden gifted the Irish

13:17

delegation a woodcut plaque.

13:18

But it has an image of like Bobby Sands'

13:20

face, but then these kind of crucified

13:23

figures, you know, in the background,

13:25

it's quite a... And it does say,

13:27

you know, from the Ayatollah Khomeini to,

13:30

you know, the martyr Bobby Sands.

13:31

Despite all this, Ronni was

13:33

still surprised to hear a rumor around

13:35

the streets of Belfast.

13:37

One about a street named after Bobby

13:40

in Tehran.

13:42

I was, you know, I think I'd heard

13:44

it, but I just had no idea whether it was true

13:46

or not. So we went exploring.

13:48

I have to say, lots of cameras

13:51

around me. So it's

13:54

got to be quiet. It's

13:57

hard to get the ambience before I

13:59

get into it. This is Naveed, an

14:02

audio producer in Tehran. I asked

14:04

him to go to the neighborhood and check out the

14:06

street.

14:07

Just about to turn into

14:10

Bobby Cents Street. And

14:15

we're now on Bobby Cents. It's

14:21

quite a

14:23

busy street. Lots

14:26

of cars. One

14:29

side is the

14:31

wall of embassy. Not sure which

14:33

embassy it is. Ronni knew exactly

14:35

which embassy it was. One

14:37

side of the street is taken up with the British embassy.

14:40

So it's the wall of... I mean,

14:42

I'll get myself into trouble, but

14:44

it's a kind of typical British embassy from that time. It's

14:47

big. So

14:51

they not only have a building, but they have gardens.

14:53

They have gardens. So it's more

14:55

like a block that they

14:58

have. Like a compound, basically,

15:00

for the embassy. It's a compound.

15:03

Because, of course, the British

15:05

government likes to leave evidence of

15:07

its stay and its occupation in

15:09

countries all over the world. In

15:11

Tehran, the British embassy's

15:14

address was Winston Churchill

15:16

Avenue. ["The

15:17

Star-Spangled Banner"] Calling

15:20

the street Winston Churchill Avenue was

15:23

quite a powerful move from the British many

15:25

years before. By the way, Winston

15:27

Churchill was one of the most famous prime ministers

15:30

in the UK, governing at the height

15:32

of the British empire from 1940 to 45, and

15:35

again from 1951 to 55.

15:38

Churchill was actually in power when

15:40

the British organized a coup to overthrow

15:42

the Iranian government in 1953.

15:45

But back to the story about how it

15:47

became Bobby Sand Street. Yeah, so

15:50

I speak of a story about Bobby Sand Street

15:52

in Tehran, and I read a book in

15:54

a story told by a man called Pedram

15:57

Mualiliom. I might be pronouncing his name

15:59

not quite properly. but Pedram, and

16:01

it was a very interesting story about he says that when he

16:04

was a kid really, he

16:07

and some friends decided to unofficially

16:09

rename the street

16:10

after Bobby Sands, after Bobby

16:12

Sands died, and it

16:14

was a street near a friend's house. Deirdre

16:16

spoke to Pedram, the Iranian who as

16:19

a teen had changed the street name.

16:21

We reached out to him for the story multiple

16:23

times, but in the end he didn't respond. I

16:25

think they had some other ideas of trying to commemorate Bobby

16:27

Sands, like, you know, find an Irish

16:29

flag, but as he said, if there was a place to find

16:31

an Irish flag in Turan at that time,

16:33

he didn't know where it was. And they

16:35

had all sorts of other ideas, but in the end, they

16:37

decided that the street naming would be a powerful

16:39

symbolic response. And so they were literally

16:41

able to make, he was quite good at art and

16:43

graphic design, he was able to make a mock-up

16:46

of the sign. So they unscrewed

16:48

the name of Winston Churchill Avenue, and they

16:50

renamed it Bobby Sands Street.

16:53

Yes, I can see the sign Bobby

16:55

Sands Street.

17:01

The sign is both in Farsi

17:03

and obviously in English. And

17:05

the British government were

17:07

very angry. They thought

17:10

that they could order Tehran, take that down

17:13

and put back Winston Churchill Avenue. But

17:15

the local authority recognized

17:17

the street officially as Bobby Sands Street.

17:20

And it's very interesting what the British government did next.

17:23

So rather than receive mail,

17:25

they bricked

17:27

up the entrance to

17:30

the street and knocked

17:32

a hole in the wall leading

17:34

on to another street so that they

17:37

wouldn't have Bobby Sands mentioned in

17:39

their address because of course Bobby

17:42

Sands was haunting them.

17:47

I asked Navid whether he knew why it was

17:49

called Bobby Sands street. Yes,

17:51

I mean, I had no

17:54

idea, but I guess people that are around the

17:56

area, they pretty much out

17:59

of

18:00

I think I interviewed one, two,

18:02

three, maybe four people. Three

18:04

of them completely knew what it was. What

18:13

he said is that, so

18:15

Bobby Sands apparently was an

18:19

Irish revolutionary who was against

18:21

the British empire.

18:24

And after the revolution, because

18:26

Iran's relationship

18:29

with

18:30

England wasn't in a

18:32

good position,

18:35

so that's why they named the street

18:37

Bobby Sands as, again,

18:39

a sort of like a jap to them. Interestingly

18:44

a few years ago, I discovered

18:46

that Jack Straw...

18:47

He used to be the UK's foreign secretary.

18:49

He was secretly lobbying

18:52

the Tehran government, the

18:54

Iranian government, sorry, to

18:57

Cheen Zhanian back to

18:58

Winston Churchill Avenue.

19:00

So I launched an international petition

19:03

and we received scores

19:05

of thousands of

19:08

people who signed the petition calling

19:10

upon Tehran, not the

19:12

Cheen Zhanian, and the street remains

19:15

Bobby Sans Street.

19:39

Today the street remains Bobby Sans Street.

19:42

There's even a Bobby Sans burger joint

19:44

into her own. Interestingly enough,

19:46

Tehran is not the only place you'll find streets

19:48

named after Bobby Sands. There's one

19:51

in New York, a Bobby Sands way in

19:53

Connecticut, and a couple more around

19:55

the world. We'll

19:58

be back after the break.

20:20

54% of

20:25

podcast listeners are more likely to trust

20:27

brands they hear advertised on podcasts.

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If you're curious about podcasts as a medium

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and what they can do for your brand, go to kerningcultures.com

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to learn more about advertising on podcasts.

20:45

Many times, street name changes happen

20:47

out of protest or petition,

20:49

rather than in the dead of the night. Don't

20:51

be afraid to take your appeal to a larger

20:53

stage, which may involve protests,

20:56

marches, and boycotts. This second

20:58

story is more recent, one that's actually

21:01

happening as we speak. And

21:03

just like in Tehran, it's about a

21:05

name that's more than just a name.

21:08

It's about a group of people battling

21:10

a name put in place centuries ago, one

21:13

that memorializes a very controversial

21:15

character in Sudanese history.

21:17

And it's making locals ask questions

21:20

about which parts of history we should keep

21:22

and which we shouldn't. These arguments

21:24

about street names are often about more than

21:27

street names, right? It's not just about the street name. It's

21:29

called, it's about what we value as

21:31

society and what we feel. So

21:34

sometimes people will say, oh, let's

21:36

just get rid of this argument. Let's just number all the streets

21:38

or something. And as I say in the book, these

21:40

arguments sort of divide communities. They also

21:42

create communities. So perhaps in thinking

21:44

about how to change

21:45

these street names, you're also sort of identifying what

21:47

your values are. And

21:50

funnily enough, the street in question

21:52

houses a very important building we've

21:54

come across before,

21:55

the British Embassy.

21:57

I want to put in some union jock. I

22:00

think it would be so funny.

22:16

So who is Zuber Basha? Yeah,

22:18

Zuber Rahmamur Mansur is

22:21

one of the slave traders in the

22:23

19th century. is

22:28

very famous for being slave

22:30

traded. This is Hafiz Mohammed Ibrahim,

22:33

and he's the director of Justice Africa,

22:36

an NGO focused on social justice

22:38

and human rights.

22:39

Hafiz is campaigning to change the name

22:41

of one of the historic streets in central Khartoum,

22:44

Zubair Beja Street. Zubair

22:48

Rahim Mansour, or Zubair Beja as

22:50

we'll refer to him, was a merchant in

22:52

Sudan in the mid 1800s.

22:54

To learn more about him and the history of Sudan

22:56

at the time, I called up an old friend

22:59

of mine, Aida. Hi,

23:01

my name is Aida Abbeshar. I'm based

23:03

in Nairobi. I'm Sudanese. I'm

23:06

a social policy research officer

23:09

and my research primarily focuses

23:11

on Sudan and the current transitional

23:13

period. I asked Aida to fill me in

23:16

on who Zubayr was. Okay. So

23:18

in order to talk about Zubayr fashion, you also have to talk about

23:21

slavery in Sudan, kind of the history of slavery

23:23

in Sudan. And slavery in Sudan

23:25

can be traced back to ancient

23:27

Nubian Egyptian times. The

23:29

history of slavery in ancient

23:30

Egypt is well known but

23:33

as thousands of years passed Sudanese

23:35

people were still being captured as slaves

23:37

and sent to Egypt. For most of

23:39

the 19th century the slave population

23:42

of Egypt was between 20,000 and 30,000 out of a total population

23:44

of 5 million.

23:48

Every significant town in Egypt had a slave

23:50

market the largest of which was

23:53

Wakele-Til-Galayba which was a Sudanese

23:55

merchant's roadside inn in central Cairo.

24:00

The ruler began raiding South Sudan in

24:02

an attempt to build

24:04

up an army of southern Sudanese slaves and

24:06

the people who helped him were Nubian slavers. This

24:09

wasn't just recruiting people to join an army.

24:12

Instead, it was a very systematic

24:14

way of raiding villages. In order

24:16

to get these slaves, it was very much planned. And

24:19

that's where Zuber Pasha comes in.

24:21

He used to work with the Turkish

24:24

and also the Egyptian and actually

24:27

apprehending people from South Sudan

24:30

and the Nuba Mountains and send them as

24:32

slaves

24:33

to Egypt and as a part of Sudan. It

24:36

seemed pretty clear to me that Zubayr was

24:38

a terrible person. But this

24:40

is where it got tricky, because for

24:42

many Sudanese, Zubayr Basha wasn't

24:44

a villain at all.

24:45

In fact, he's seen as a hero.

24:47

The problem is, in the history

24:50

textbooks which students

24:52

study in the different,

24:54

in primary school and others, they

24:56

considered him as one of the heroes. On

24:58

the one hand, he said he never owned a slave and

25:00

he never had anything to do with a slave trade. On the other

25:03

hand, he was the king of slave traders.

25:04

This is Zachary Berman.

25:06

And that's what makes it a little schizophrenic

25:09

almost to try to follow the narrative.

25:12

I asked Zach to help me understand why Zubero

25:14

was seen as a hero if he was so terrible.

25:17

He was well suited for that because he's a

25:19

high school teacher.

25:20

I teach high school. I teach global history

25:23

in 9th and 10th grade at Stuyvesant High School

25:26

in New York. And

25:28

Zach also wrote his PhD thesis

25:30

on Zuber Basha. And I do

25:32

get to talk about my dissertation with my students.

25:34

They do appreciate it. Can

25:36

we sort of go back a bit and how

25:39

did this slave trading happen?

25:42

You know, did he just fall into it? Like

25:44

how does one become a king of

25:46

slave traders.

25:48

I think you very much fall into it, especially

25:50

because his family had been traders and

25:52

this was sort of the wild west where you went to

25:54

seek your fortune. And I think we

25:57

We really need to say that this was not

25:59

nothing like. like

26:00

the slave or transatlantic plantation

26:02

slavery. This was slavery of

26:06

people who largely were sold to

26:09

pay off taxes, their families

26:11

owed taxes, they didn't have any money, so they had to sell

26:13

children. And by selling

26:16

them, they were promised they'd have a great job.

26:17

And so even though at some point he

26:19

had a personal army made up of captives

26:22

from South Sudan,

26:23

he also captured parts of land in the

26:25

name of Sudan.

26:26

And so in the eyes of many Sudanese,

26:29

he was a conqueror in the name of their country.

26:32

His life and his legacy have actually left

26:34

him many supporters in Sudan.

26:35

And even just a couple of months

26:38

ago, there is a full program

26:40

in one of the Sudanese divisions about

26:43

him as the hero, one of the heroes of Sudanese

26:45

history.

26:46

Completely erasing the problematic

26:48

issues of his slavery past. And have never

26:51

seen a textbook which consider the slave

26:53

trade as a shame or something which

26:55

we have to regret. They never

26:58

do that. And I think that is the problem. I think we

27:00

have to delink our presence

27:03

with this very shameful history.

27:07

Zuberbasha Street is in the more historic

27:09

center of Khartoum, covering

27:11

almost 20 blocks of the city

27:13

center. There's two university

27:15

campuses on the street,

27:17

mosques, a church, several banks,

27:19

and tons of restaurants.

27:21

It's a bustling street, only a few blocks

27:23

away from the Blue Nile River.

27:28

But that's not all. The street's

27:30

location is reflective of the city's colonial

27:32

urban design.

27:33

Khartoum was planned by Herbert Kitchener

27:36

when an Anglo-Egyptian army took back control

27:38

over Sudan in 1898.

27:47

Kitchener was a military engineer and

27:49

previous battles in Khartoum had torn it to

27:51

the ground,

27:52

giving him free reign to rebuild the

27:54

city, and past naming many streets

27:57

after British names and legacies.

27:59

Kitchener did some something much more permanent.

28:01

He chose to lay out the city to

28:03

resemble the Union Jack.

28:10

The Union Jack that's on the British flag.

28:13

He literally made Khartoum look like a bunch

28:16

of Union Jacks if you're looking at it from

28:18

above. But something else you do see in Khartoum's centre

28:20

is that many of the street names were

28:23

chosen as a physical reminder of victories

28:25

of the British and Egyptian armies. And so,

28:28

having the name of a prominent slaver who

28:30

helped supply Egypt's army with Sudanese

28:32

slaves, which ultimately were then used

28:34

to fight their countrymen, as a street

28:37

name on roads that resembled the Union Jack,

28:39

it's more than a little problematic,

28:42

especially because of what's on the street itself.

28:45

It's known as the street where the British Embassy is

28:47

situated, so if you ever want to get a visa to go to

28:49

the UK, you'll be at

28:51

Zuber Pasha Street.

28:52

This is even worse when you think about

28:55

the British relationship with Zuber.

28:57

That's how Zach got into researching him in

28:59

the first place.

29:00

And so I spent a few hours looking at British parliamentary

29:02

records for the months leading

29:05

up to the Montez Revolt and it was

29:08

overwhelming about this guy named Zuber. And

29:11

people, and they were yelling back and forth about

29:15

Zuber is our only hope and Zuber

29:18

is this evil and he's our only hope and he's evil

29:20

and he's only hope and he's evil.

29:21

Their relationship with Zuber was long

29:23

and complicated.

29:24

While the British wanted to stop slavery in

29:27

Sudan and so hated Zuber for his part

29:29

in continuing the trade, they

29:31

also deeply respected him.

29:33

So much so that at one point, the

29:35

British were fully considering in stating

29:37

Zuber as the new ruler of Sudan

29:39

in order to bring Sudan back under their

29:42

control. When the British retook

29:44

Sudan after the Mahdist Revolution and

29:47

set up the Anglo-Egyptian condominium, He

29:49

became an advisor to the government.

29:52

And after

29:53

he dies, the day after he died,

29:55

the British administrator said

29:57

he might have done more. to

30:00

eliminate the slave trade than anyone.

30:06

Changing the street name is now more important

30:08

than ever for Hafiz, for a much bigger

30:10

reason. After months of protests

30:13

starting December 2018,

30:15

a 39-month transitionary period

30:17

was signed in September 2019 in Sudan. Since

30:21

then, Sudanese people have gone to the streets

30:24

protesting a range of issues, which

30:26

sparked discussions on corruption, justice,

30:29

the rights of political prisoners, the

30:31

economy, women's rights, and

30:33

importantly, rethinking relations

30:35

with South Sudan and combating racism

30:38

in Sudanese communities.

30:39

We want to change the culture, the

30:42

mindset of the people who believe that

30:44

some Sudanese are slaves. I think this

30:46

is still there. And by doing

30:49

that, I think we want to change that. We want

30:51

to change the perception. We want to change

30:53

the mindset. We want to tell people that

30:55

Sudanese are equal, no one is a slave

30:58

and no one is master. I think that is what we

31:00

want to do.

31:01

I think that's where street names really matter. Because

31:04

for a lot of people, if you only have a surface level

31:06

understanding of what the street is

31:08

or where it's located or how it's set up, then

31:10

the street name, whatever it is, doesn't really

31:13

matter. But once you incorporate

31:15

the history and the other intricacies that

31:17

come into play,

31:19

that's when I think it matters. And I think those are the type of

31:21

discussions that need to be had in Sudan.

31:25

Although the campaign to change the name of the

31:27

street from Zuber Beshah has been

31:29

delayed because of COVID-19, Hafez

31:32

is hoping to set up a petition which they

31:34

can deliver to the government in order

31:36

to ask them to change the name of the street.

31:38

We're hoping that by indicating

31:41

people and telling them exactly

31:43

what's wrong and what's right in our history,

31:46

that we'll change Sudan and we will end

31:48

conflict. and then Sudanese can live

31:50

together, recognizing each other, recognizing

31:53

diversity. By that, we will end

31:56

conflict and then continue move forward.

31:58

And you know. there have been more sort

32:00

of more modern, you know, philosophers who talk

32:03

about how, you know, revolutions often start

32:05

with changes in street names. There's a geographer

32:07

named Don Mitchell who I was speaking to who made

32:09

a, who makes this great point that, you know, if you're

32:11

an invader, then you can physically take space.

32:14

But if you're a revolutionary, you have to take the space from the

32:16

inside. And so taking the

32:18

space from the inside, you already have it, what do you do with it?

32:20

And part of it is that you can rename it. So,

32:23

so changing the names to reflect your ideology

32:25

can be a powerful

32:26

tool and, and a revolutionary's

32:28

toolkit, I suppose.

32:33

The next time you're out on a walk or a drive,

32:36

look around you. Look out for street

32:38

signs, marking dates, honoring

32:41

names, or establishing narratives. Notice

32:43

the hidden curriculum that runs through place names.

32:46

You'll never know what you'll uncover, right

32:48

outside your front door. Toponyms

32:50

reflect points of view, which can be

32:52

changed.

32:57

This episode was produced by Zaina Dubidar

32:59

with editorial support from Alex Atack,

33:02

Nadine Schecker, and Dana Boulut. Editing

33:04

by Dana Boulut and sound design by Zaina

33:07

Dubidar, Alex Atack, and mixing

33:09

by Mohammed Ghezat. The

33:11

article Zaina reads throughout this episode is

33:13

called How to Rename a Street. It's

33:15

by Malia Wolin from the New York Times.

33:18

Thank you to Deirdre Masque whose book,

33:20

The Address Book, what street addresses reveal

33:23

about identity, race, wealth and power

33:25

really shaped and inspired this story.

33:28

Thank you to Ronnie Closz, Danny Morrison,

33:31

Aida Abashar, Zachary Berman

33:33

and Hafez Ibrahim for taking the time

33:35

to speak to me for the story.

33:37

You can keep up with Hafez's work on the

33:39

Justice Africa Sudan page. Thank

33:42

you to Naveed who provided great

33:44

tape from Tehran. Thank

33:45

you also to Todd Reese, author

33:48

of Showpiece City, How Architecture Made

33:50

Dubai,

33:51

and Susana F. Molina, founder

33:53

of the urban activist

33:55

for speaking to me for this story. This

33:57

year also marks the 40th anniversary

33:59

of hunger strikes at Lancash, which

34:02

Bobby organized.

34:03

If you're loving kerning cultures, please

34:06

be sure to tell your friends about us.

34:08

In addition to this show, we have seven

34:11

other fabulous, if I do say

34:13

so, podcasts in Arabic and

34:15

in English. Everything from love stories

34:17

to thriller fiction adventures, just

34:20

google the kerning cultures network and you'll

34:22

see the whole list. If you're experiencing

34:24

Casey withdrawal from each episode to the next.

34:27

Be sure to follow us on social at

34:29

kerningcultures. We do our best to

34:32

fill the feed with cool factoids you'll want to

34:34

share with your friends and some behind the scenes of

34:36

us as a team. We'll be back next week

34:38

with a new story for you. Thanks for listening.

34:41

Until next time.

34:54

Choose the street carefully.

34:57

Roadways with fewer no addresses, like

34:59

highways, are the easiest to rename. Oh,

35:03

I hate recording so much. Okay,

35:05

that's it. During what was known as the troubles,

35:08

which was a 30 year period. Oh, 30,

35:11

I sound so American. Okay.

35:14

I don't know, it just comes out of my mouth this

35:16

way. But what

35:18

connected Bobby Sands' struggle with Iran?

35:21

No, that was really bad. So

35:23

we went exploring. Oh, so

35:25

we went exploring.

35:27

It's such a weird line. I feel like I'm in

35:30

a comic book. Okay. He was the

35:32

former UK's former foreign,

35:35

sorry, I read that. I

35:37

said former like three times. It

35:39

was like former, former, former. Okay.

36:00

for production and storytelling of this miniseries.

36:03

Thank you so much for writing that review. We

36:05

deeply appreciate you listening. You

36:07

guys are the best.