0:00

Welcome to Quick Brain, bite-sized

0:02

brain hacks for busy people who want

0:04

to learn faster and achieve more. I'm

0:06

your coach, Jim Quick. Welcome

0:26

back, Quick Brains. I am

0:28

your host and your brain

0:30

coach, Jim Quick. Today we

0:32

have psychologist and interpersonal relationship

0:35

expert Ty Tashiro knows

0:37

what it's like to be awkward. Growing

0:40

up, he could do math in

0:42

his head and memorize the earned

0:44

run averages of every national league

0:47

starting pitcher, but he couldn't pour

0:49

liquids without spilling and habitually forgot

0:51

to bring his glove to Little

0:54

League games. In his research, he

0:56

unpacks decades of research

0:59

into human intelligence, neuroscience,

1:01

personality, and sociology to

1:03

help us better understand

1:06

this widely shared trait

1:08

and how these unique quirks

1:11

can be our greatest superpower. Welcome to

1:13

the show, Ty. Hey, thanks so much

1:15

for having me. Yeah, been looking forward

1:17

to this conversation because I'm sure you

1:19

hear this a lot, but the title

1:22

of your most recent book, Awkward,

1:25

pretty much defines my life. Oh

1:29

yeah. I love that. Well, you're

1:31

in good company today because mine too. Oh,

1:33

okay. Well, why don't we

1:35

start with that? What inspired you to

1:38

research and to write about

1:40

this phenomenon of awkwardness? So

1:43

I had this time maybe six years ago

1:45

or so where I just so

1:47

happened to go visit a bunch of friends who

1:49

had moved to new cities. And

1:52

just by coincidence, a lot of these friends were socially awkward.

1:54

And so I was watching them trying to

1:56

make new friends in these new cities and

1:59

we go to parks. parties or gatherings and

2:02

I'd watch them be awkward. And you

2:04

know how it is as you're watching

2:06

a social situation unfold. And

2:09

I just see the other person

2:11

make some excuse to go get a drink or

2:13

go to the restroom or

2:15

anything to end the conversation. And

2:18

it made me really sad, actually. And

2:20

I thought I felt a lot of

2:22

empathy for my friends, my

2:24

awkward friends, who I knew were

2:26

amazing people, like tremendous friends with

2:28

great characters. So interesting. And I

2:30

thought it's a real shame that

2:32

in two or three minutes, this person made a

2:35

decision about whether or not they wanted to get

2:37

to know this person. And,

2:39

you know, I had this

2:41

thought, like, if awkward people could just

2:43

skip the first five minutes of conversation,

2:45

I think they'd actually be all right.

2:49

And so that little curiosity, it kind

2:51

of got me into looking into the

2:53

research on social awkwardness and

2:55

I just found it to be fascinating.

2:57

And here we are. A year

2:59

later and it's a really interesting area.

3:02

And I think it's really wonderful area because

3:04

it shows the power of

3:06

being unique and how that

3:08

can have a tremendous upside. So when you're

3:10

thinking about those friends and reflecting on it,

3:12

what are the characteristics or how would you

3:15

define social awkwardness? And then

3:17

my follow up question would be, are

3:19

there myths around awkwardness that maybe people

3:21

maybe we could clarify some of the

3:23

things that people believe that maybe it's

3:25

untrue. For sure. So how would you

3:28

define social awkwardness? Well, I like to

3:30

do two things. So there's awkward moments

3:32

and then there's awkward people. OK. Right.

3:34

And we've all had awkward moments. That's for sure.

3:37

Yeah. As far as the fun of the topic,

3:39

I think even the most socially adept people have

3:42

had their awkward moments, even blush sometimes

3:44

years later when they recall these stories,

3:46

they get funny, fortunately, over time a

3:48

lot of times. But in the moment,

3:51

certainly very embarrassing. Awkward moments are just

3:53

deviations from relatively minor social expectations. What

3:55

would be an example of so not

3:57

having spinach in your front teeth? Pretty

4:01

minor, right? But if you were

4:03

giving a talk and it's missed stuck in your front

4:05

teeth, that would be pretty an

4:07

awkward moment. Pretty awkward, super embarrassed, people would feel

4:10

awkward for you. Zipper.

4:12

Pretty minor actually when you think about

4:14

it but super awkward only don't meet

4:17

that expectation. And so

4:19

everyone has awkward moments, they're just

4:21

these little blips or aberrations and what's

4:23

otherwise usually pretty smooth social

4:25

interaction. I think awkward moments

4:28

actually tell us something pretty interesting about the

4:30

social mind because it's like an

4:32

all or nothing fire alarm. I don't know if

4:34

you ever had that where there's barely

4:36

any smoke or heat coming off the stove

4:38

and the alarm goes off and it's really

4:41

loud. It's kind of where our minds react

4:43

to awkward moments and it just shows how

4:45

sensitive we are to coordinating

4:47

social interactions with each other,

4:50

keeping those expectations rolling smoothly

4:53

and then anytime there's a deviation, we respond

4:55

with a really powerful emotional response.

4:58

Yeah, so those are awkward moments. Now

5:00

there's awkward people. Awkward

5:03

people have more awkward moments obviously but

5:05

we also know that their brains actually

5:07

just work differently than people who are

5:10

what I would call socially fluent or

5:12

really socially adept. And

5:14

so about 10-15% of the population

5:17

is socially awkward and

5:19

they just have a harder time

5:21

deciphering what's the

5:23

social skill required in the situation.

5:25

So what's the expectation, social expectation

5:27

here. They have a harder time

5:29

executing the social skill to meet

5:31

that expectation. They also

5:33

have trouble with communication. So that

5:36

could be understanding what someone else

5:38

intends to communicate to them or

5:41

it could be getting their point across in a

5:43

way that's socially palatable.

5:45

So for example, sometimes awkward people

5:47

are too blunt and I

5:49

say, hey, you didn't need to

5:51

say that or you could have said it in

5:54

a little more cushioned kind of way. The last

5:56

characteristic is actually my favorite and

5:58

it's obsessive interest. And so

6:00

awkward people, I like to say they

6:02

really love what they love. And yeah,

6:04

well, everybody has something that

6:07

they're interested in. Awkward people almost

6:09

get obsessive or do get obsessive about

6:12

the things that they're interested in. Going back

6:14

to the myths, you think there's one or

6:17

two myths that people commonly believe that

6:20

maybe is not, your research has shown

6:22

is not accurate or true

6:24

if there is any. Oh, for sure. Okay.

6:27

Because people don't

6:30

meet a certain social expectation. Immediately,

6:32

our mind starts to search for

6:34

more information. So why did they

6:36

not shake my hand? Why are they

6:39

not making good eye contact with

6:41

me? Now we start to make attributions

6:43

and fishing around. We might

6:45

say, well, they're not making good eye contact with

6:47

me because they're rude or they don't care what

6:50

I used to say. Right. And now

6:52

it goes to making an inference about

6:54

the awkward person's intent. And

6:56

the large majority of awkward people I

6:59

know have tremendous intent. I mean, their

7:01

intent is so good and they want

7:03

so badly to do the right thing. They

7:05

want so badly to be helpful. And

7:07

for the social interaction to go well, it's

7:10

just they are a little

7:12

bit clumsy socially. Right. So it's an ability

7:14

thing. And I think when people reframe it

7:17

that way, that, hey, this isn't an intent,

7:19

a bad intent on the awkward person's part,

7:22

maybe it's just that they're struggling, processing

7:24

what needs to happen in

7:26

this situation or having a hard time

7:29

executing on what they think

7:31

needs to happen. Also, eye contact is

7:33

another good thing. So when socially fluent

7:35

people get into a social

7:38

interaction, they reflexively look at the

7:40

eye region of the other person. Okay. It's

7:42

a really smart place to look. Right. The eye

7:45

region is the most information rich part of the

7:47

face. Interesting. Yeah. But no

7:49

one had to tell the socially fluent person

7:51

to do that. They just reflexively do that.

7:54

And they do that time and time again. Now,

7:56

socially awkward people, by comparison, tend

7:59

to reflexively. Look at the chin. For.

8:01

They tend to look at the corner

8:03

of the year which are much less

8:06

information rich areas of the face see

8:08

you can imagine. Rec from a

8:10

star The interaction. To the socially from

8:12

person to succeed in to a lot of

8:14

important so son from a celestial supposed. Coming.

8:17

From the emotions on the other

8:19

person's face, friends socially awkward person

8:21

has missed a lot of emotional

8:24

information and at the same time.

8:27

Has no said kind of an awkward

8:29

nonverbal signal to the other person. And

8:31

as you've had someone mates erratic eye

8:33

contact with yeah, it does feel. Kind.

8:35

Of this really uncomfortable right he has

8:38

been unconsciously for not even consciously aware

8:40

you just kind of what had this

8:42

feeling of unease maybe it exactly and

8:45

any starter do that wondering for a

8:47

d analysis of exactly and I think

8:49

this is a really good example of

8:51

how there can be and some misunderstandings

8:54

bought off with people and so the

8:56

reason why offer to feel like if

8:58

the tanner the corner the ear. Is.

9:01

Because looking into the I region. Is.

9:04

To over stimulating for their brains. Is

9:06

com like looking into the sun for to on

9:08

of I analogy and so by looking at the

9:11

chen or the ear was they learn to do

9:13

very early on in life. That. Dampen

9:15

the muscle intensity of the situation

9:17

and by doing so trusting more

9:19

able to stay. Attuned to

9:21

what to say and to stay

9:23

linked. sense of the interaction. so

9:26

it's it's wholly different reasoning their

9:28

that they're actually doing that so

9:30

that they can understand what you're

9:32

saying rather than being disrespectful or

9:34

disinterested. So I love that to

9:36

the awareness is even if you

9:39

don't identify as awkward someone listening.

9:41

Certainly, we all know people who

9:43

are awkward. It also. Takes.

9:45

The judgment out when she had these

9:47

distinctions for people listening. Maybe they have

9:49

somebody in their lives that looking at

9:51

your ear their eyes are kind of

9:53

erotic Turn the looking at their ten

9:56

yes is Is there a correlation have

9:58

you found as a D. It

10:00

all between. So I'm being an extrovert

10:02

Or introvert is that? There's. A play

10:04

into this at all is so this is

10:06

this. is actually curious. I expected to find

10:08

a strong correlation between and awkwardness and information

10:11

and right and the turns as strong as

10:13

he works back, there is a bit of

10:15

a relationship between us to but. There's.

10:18

Actually two kinds of off of people

10:20

sprayed so yeah the interviewer it is

10:22

awkward person is may be looking at

10:24

your shoes or for her ear but

10:26

you probably also us map of little

10:28

s s to talk too much as

10:30

sometimes and they tend to lecture. He

10:33

won. An awesome sight is not.

10:35

Something. That they're incessantly interested about,

10:38

that might not be as interesting

10:40

to other person. Now that in

10:42

the book you talk about how

10:44

being awkward could actually be their

10:46

benefits and can be awesome to,

10:48

there may be certain advantages and.

10:51

More. With some of those be

10:53

like so people listening. If

10:55

they feel like they are

10:57

awkward in social situations that

10:59

they they're probably some. Some

11:02

benefit from them. A reward comes from.

11:04

Like in in terms of the way

11:06

the same thirty have received the world.

11:09

Yeah yeah at you know a lot

11:11

of ways and only served to have

11:13

some. one way is actually saw cells

11:15

and seven. believe it or not, sell

11:18

the way off the people process of

11:20

information that it is actually very different.

11:22

So when a socially fluent person. Gotten.

11:25

A social situation they're you

11:27

think down processing so they're

11:29

saying. Oh hey, this is a

11:32

half of the society. Gets me when I walk

11:34

into Earth's a Room with a socially fluent French.

11:37

Essays: the party's last people like most and

11:39

going on and within seconds to say there's

11:41

a great behave in here. As

11:45

you know that, that was the

11:47

case, but they're disabled two. Cats

11:49

hop down see like his advisors. General

11:52

thing is is good hear the effort

11:54

person by comparison so they're looking at.

11:57

Such. a fun the table for snacks

11:59

they're looking each person individually,

12:01

they're thinking about the music and

12:03

it's actually a really great point

12:05

of empathy is if

12:07

you watch their brain work in fMRI's

12:09

they're furiously trying to make sense of

12:12

what's going on. So they're trying to

12:14

assemble all of this information, all this

12:16

disparate information to figure out what

12:18

is the vibe in this room? What is

12:21

the expectation? What should I do? And

12:23

so well that can be an impediment

12:26

sometimes, other times it can be

12:28

real damage. So some of

12:30

the people I've heard from the most since

12:32

this book came out are actually wives

12:35

who are socially fluent but their husbands

12:37

are socially awkward. And

12:40

they oftentimes tell me the same thing which

12:42

is that when there's a social problem that

12:44

they have that they're really stuck on

12:47

and that they can't figure out with their

12:49

other socially fluent friends, they'll go ask

12:51

their husband. And they

12:53

said oftentimes their husband has a totally different

12:56

perspective on what the situation is

12:58

and how to solve it. And

13:00

so they've seen details or pieces

13:03

of this social situation. They're able to hone

13:05

in on that in a

13:08

way that's really illuminating. So I think

13:10

that's a really wonderful ability and awkward

13:12

people can just see things in unique

13:14

ways but also I think you

13:17

know once they settle into themselves I

13:20

think they're so great at understanding the uniqueness

13:22

in others too. And

13:24

just these little parts of us they're kind of

13:26

quirky or different but the awkward person will zoom

13:28

in on that detail and really appreciate it

13:31

a lot of times. So that's a great

13:33

advantage and the way

13:35

you frame it in a social setting. Is

13:37

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15:25

It's unbelievable ballet or

15:28

writing whatever it might be. They

15:30

found that there was this strong correlation

15:32

with awkwardness and then they wanted

15:34

to investigate. What's the mechanism? Why

15:37

does the awkward kid tend towards

15:40

this extraordinary talent? What

15:42

I love about this is that there

15:44

was some explanation from IQ so that

15:47

they did have some intellectual strengths. But

15:50

the better explanation by far was that

15:52

they were more persistent. It's kind of

15:54

that deliberate practice. So

15:57

you Hear about those 10,000 hours

15:59

in practice. The it really good at

16:01

something and our kids will easily hit

16:03

that much sooner Sleep and why doesn't

16:06

it is? It's to that this abscess

16:08

of interest states has to be so

16:10

they it if I something a loss

16:12

they really. Zero in on

16:14

it was ruined his focus and

16:17

then they. They're just tireless and

16:19

any parent have enough for kid.

16:22

But. Hey this whatever it is their

16:24

kid laws. Assists

16:26

night and day. Oftentimes a nice

16:28

to be disciplinary measures taken to

16:30

say you need to start doing

16:32

your mass murderer, your poetry. what

16:34

whatever my be on because they

16:36

just love it so much so.

16:38

can social so and see be

16:40

something that's learned. Yes over

16:42

somebody that feels awkward? Absolutely. What are

16:45

some suggestions that you would share with

16:47

them to be and more at ease

16:49

Be as we all had this I

16:52

feel like this derived of to belong

16:54

to me about her to sit in

16:56

Sir: where would you advise somebody once

16:59

who feels awkward and they seal it

17:01

to ah and is not may be

17:03

comfortable how can they be and mores

17:06

and social settings. I guess is

17:08

as you things as a am one is

17:10

good and the social skills build a social.

17:12

Skills he made. But you know,

17:14

Developmental Psychologist of looks for decades

17:16

now at what makes for a

17:18

gratifying socialist? What makes for great.

17:21

Friendships. And family relationships and the

17:23

ones that really matter frame? And.

17:26

They repeatedly finds the same free

17:28

things so is being fair. It's

17:31

being kind and seeing what oh wow

17:33

and that might sound so common sense

17:35

in hindsight right? but oftentimes I think

17:37

we forget it is an associate. Other

17:40

source of the man's put out there

17:42

have on social media with they go

17:44

that socially by years the you know

17:46

it's have a six pack abs there's

17:48

something serious. Ah now it's is is

17:50

being fair. Being. Time. Being.

17:53

Loyal. I think it's of

17:55

think about people were really meaningful to than

17:57

move really bad the high quality friends yeah.

18:00

They buy This Call is over and over

18:02

again awkward people. Are completely

18:05

capable of embody Not speak to

18:07

this because these rights as well

18:09

as our lifetimes awkward adults can

18:11

have great amazing friendships. Read: Ah,

18:14

because those are the things that

18:16

really matter where. I appreciate your

18:18

work because it makes people. Loneliness.

18:22

Is an epidemic where people feel isolated

18:24

and even if they're around people because

18:26

of may be at least I'm sick

18:28

of my personal experience of surrounded by

18:30

people, but it because I felt like

18:32

I didn't sit in or I was

18:34

different in certain ways. I felt like

18:36

I was in connected. So

18:39

loneliness we know is just. there really

18:41

is a town for mental health. They

18:45

can lead to other things than so.

18:47

I appreciate you reading this book and

18:49

bring it out to the world. Because

18:52

your for people have

18:54

for and span actually

18:56

really. Help also

18:58

as one. Appreciate that and I encourage

19:00

people this to share this episode wherever

19:02

they're consuming at right now they can

19:05

take a screenshot of s and and

19:07

posted and and share with their friends

19:09

and and gifts and get a cup

19:11

in the book to somebody is also

19:13

if he'd If even if the person

19:15

listening to this are watching is not

19:18

they don't see themselves as socially awkward.

19:20

Maybe give them a different way of

19:22

relating to the person in their lives

19:24

for that you know they've given that

19:26

label to or where. Can people find

19:28

more about your work so they connect with

19:31

you or or go deeper with your your

19:33

knowledge? The surf our was in good are

19:35

tied to Shero. Dot com or

19:37

you can get the most things. Ah

19:40

Instagram is another good place to find

19:42

me and on the as with the

19:44

books are visible were books for so

19:46

Roka Wonderful! will put it in the

19:49

show Notes are linked, your website, your

19:51

social media and tight. Thank you so

19:53

much for being on or show physician

19:55

yeah I think everybody who's listening the

19:57

I remember we put the extended. Version

20:00

of this conversation as we always

20:02

do on our youtube channel join

20:05

a one point five million plus

20:07

subscribers there and leave comments and

20:09

let me know what she thought

20:12

about this episode. and and if

20:14

you're willing to share your level

20:17

of social awkwardness is I feel

20:19

like this is very real rock

20:21

conversations and but it's I'd have

20:24

any curiosity to know yourself and

20:26

then also have encouraged to be

20:29

that person. In a

20:31

world where comparison and social

20:33

media our we do so

20:35

this idealized version. those and

20:37

we think we, we should

20:39

be. That's your uniqueness, could

20:41

also be your strengths and

20:43

you're You're super power. So

20:45

and so next episode Remember

20:47

to be. Limitless.