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for our best season yet. New

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episodes dropping weekly on February

1:07

eight.

1:17

Today, we brought in a group of conservative

1:19

young women and wanted to get their honest

1:21

opinions about what they're looking for

1:24

in the guys they date.

1:25

I like an independent man. Personally,

1:27

I like the Alpha Mill vibe. This is

1:30

an ad for a dating app for conservatives called

1:32

the Right Stuff. I just prefer my men

1:34

to be masculine. No Democrats. Can't

1:36

be a Democrat. No Democrats.

1:39

To no. The app

1:41

targets like minded daters by pairing them

1:43

based on their shared values and distaste

1:45

for things like Democrats and gender

1:47

pronouns.

1:48

And you can be accused of misgendering

1:51

while trying to flirt, or you have to sort

1:53

through thirty three gender

1:54

options. Thirty three gender

1:56

options. So maybe this

1:58

app isn't your vibe, but

2:00

that's the point. The right stuff

2:02

is a part of universe of dating apps that

2:04

cater to specific groups of people. They're

2:07

not trying to be for everyone the way Bumble,

2:09

Tinder, and Hinge are. This cell

2:11

is that they are not for everyone.

2:14

Now maybe this works for some of you. And

2:16

that's fine. But if you're

2:17

looking for something different, we created

2:19

an alternative.

2:21

And there are so many alternatives.

2:24

You don't have to be lonely

2:27

at barbersongzi

2:29

dot com.

2:30

City folks just don't get it.

2:34

Right

2:34

now, there are dating apps for vegans, for

2:37

rock climbers, for Muslims, for

2:39

Jews, for Christians, For

2:42

the queer community, for hookups,

2:44

for exploring kink, there's even

2:46

been an app for people who hate the same things

2:48

as you do.

2:49

Bad WiFi is up there. Manbuns

2:51

is pretty unpopular

2:53

as it should be. Yeah. There

2:55

are exclusive apps for influencer

2:58

type. There's been dating apps for

3:00

dog people, for cat people, sugar

3:02

daddy's, and sugar babies. Seriously,

3:06

I can keep going for a while. The

3:09

point is that people and businesses are

3:11

looking outside the mainstream apps for

3:13

opportunities. For people, it's

3:16

about looking for better connections. For

3:18

businesses, it's about seeing that demand

3:20

and trying to fill it. But do these

3:22

apps work? I'm

3:35

luxury lingerie and it's pretty

3:37

clear that lot of people are fed up with dating

3:39

apps, especially the mainstream ones.

3:42

Despite this, most niche

3:44

apps still end up failing. However,

3:47

some do work and the ones that do

3:49

tend to follow a similar recipe for success.

3:53

Today we're gonna look at some of these niche apps,

3:55

some that failed, a few with a real

3:57

chance to make it big, and one that's already

3:59

a huge success.

4:08

Dispose it. GRMP opens

4:10

at seventy two dollars.

4:14

Come on.

4:15

Where are we, girl?

4:17

We got the New York Stock Exchange.

4:18

Okay. Oh. And what are we doing?

4:21

We don't went public.

4:22

Last November, the LGBTQ Chat

4:24

and Hookup app Grinder, IPO ed.

4:27

Another day, another dating app goes public,

4:29

Grinder is merging with Tiger

4:31

Acquisition Corp in a deal valued

4:34

at two point one billion dollars.

4:40

They say another day, another dating app

4:42

goes public, like it happens all the time.

4:44

It doesn't. As far as American

4:47

dating apps go, Grindr is only the

4:49

third to accomplish this next to Bumble

4:51

and Match Group, two dating behemoths.

4:53

And as far as niche dating apps go,

4:55

Grindr is the gold standard. It's

4:58

got millions of active monthly users.

5:00

It's growing. It's profitable. It's well

5:02

designed. And celebrated by the

5:04

community it serves. By

5:06

the way, when I say niche, I simply

5:08

mean that Grindr is not for everyone. It's

5:10

aimed at a specific population, the

5:12

LGBTQ community at large,

5:15

but primarily gay

5:16

men.

5:16

We're really the app that serves this community

5:19

specifically. A. J. Ballance,

5:21

Grindr's chief product officer, told us

5:23

that the key to success was having a nuanced

5:25

understanding of how users behaved

5:28

IRL.

5:28

Gregor was originally developed because

5:31

it was focused on, you know, a user

5:33

segment of gay men for a real

5:36

time location based use case you know, casual

5:38

dating hookups. So you open

5:40

up grinder, the thing that's most unique about it is,

5:42

you know, you send ten messages

5:44

to people and you might get six

5:46

responses back in a minute. And it's super

5:48

engaging. So, you know, in two thousand nine, people

5:51

started using it. It became a global

5:53

phenomenon really

5:54

quickly. And that will be called

5:56

product side, you know, an engagement

5:58

engine. So

6:01

Grindr is already a success. It's

6:03

made it. It's at the very top of a

6:05

huge heap of niche dating apps, all trying

6:07

to do the same thing, serve a specific

6:09

community and make money in the process. So

6:12

how do they do it? While looking

6:15

at Grindr and a ton of other apps for this episode,

6:17

we noticed a few things. A few

6:19

must have ingredients for any of these apps

6:21

to be a success. We're calling them

6:24

key indicators, and we found

6:26

an app that has the potential to be the next grinder.

6:28

One that appears to have all those key indicators.

6:39

I'm Katrina. I'm from Brooklyn, and

6:41

I'm here with actually a group of friends

6:43

who I met own fields. This is off that

6:46

party and it's like our little social thing

6:48

and we meet new people and so I've

6:50

actually brought with me an ex

6:52

boyfriend, an ex lover and his

6:54

new girlfriend. So it's very modern.

6:56

The other night, I went

6:57

out to an event in Manhattan hosted by the

6:59

dating app field.

7:01

I kind of like to call it like sexy

7:03

romantic networking event. Field

7:05

is an app for non traditional dating. People

7:08

use it for threesomes, casual sex,

7:10

exploring king, polyamory. You

7:12

name it. We play other singles. We're

7:15

a couple ourselves. We're engaged. And

7:17

we we just find a lot of a

7:19

lot of enjoyment and connecting with other

7:21

people and both romantically and

7:23

emotionally and

7:24

sexually. I'm bisexual, so it's

7:26

straight. So I get to, like, meet all different

7:28

genders

7:29

and different people, different backgrounds. And

7:31

everyone I've met has been really cool. This

7:33

amazingly see how how big

7:35

the community has grown. We like

7:37

it just because we're into play

7:40

and we like where warriors,

7:43

where exhibition is. I

7:46

actually used to run singles events for years

7:48

and I would grade this event very highly.

7:50

For starters, there was a great turnout. A

7:53

couple hundred people showed up and packed

7:55

out a hotel bar with what felt

7:57

like every type of person. Lots

7:59

of straight guys who are typically hard to get out

8:01

to dating events. Lots of couples looking

8:04

for

8:04

unicorns, which by the way is the

8:06

mythical third person needed for a threesome.

8:08

Everybody here is open to talking to everybody.

8:11

Because we all realize that we're kinda, like,

8:13

unplugged from the matrix of dating

8:15

that.

8:16

What's happening here at the bar is happening

8:18

every single day on the

8:19

app. As

8:22

an actual app, Fieldworks much like

8:24

your standard dating app. Users are

8:26

swiping through profiles, matching and messaging.

8:28

It's free to use, but just like other apps there

8:31

are premium features and memberships that cost

8:33

money. What's different from most

8:35

apps is the veil of anonymity. People

8:37

to use pseudonyms and sometimes hide their

8:40

faces in photos, which makes sense

8:42

because not everyone wants to broadcast

8:44

their lifestyle or what they do in the bedroom.

8:46

You can also link your profile to your partner.

8:49

The app is very kink and queer friendly, but it's

8:51

open to everyone. On the app, it's

8:53

common practice for users to be really

8:55

transparent about what they're looking for.

8:57

And that transparency and the allure

9:00

of a new experience is especially

9:02

refreshing to people who are frustrated

9:04

with Bumble or Hinge.

9:06

And I tell all of my friends who

9:08

don't have success on traditional apps get

9:10

their ass on field. Other apps were

9:12

kind of busted as the same people

9:14

over and over

9:16

doing same kind of dates And

9:18

I just want to try something different.

9:22

It's funny talking to people about Field

9:24

can sometimes feel a lot like talking to Crypto

9:26

Bros, back when bit coin was just taking

9:28

off, it's almost evangelical, a

9:31

sense that this is the future.

9:35

Now, this is great for field because like any

9:37

dating app, it needs a lot of new users.

9:40

The best way to do that is through marketing, which is

9:42

expensive, or through word-of-mouth, which

9:44

is free. And this brings us

9:46

to our first key indicator of success,

9:49

volume and density. Meaning,

9:55

to survive as business and create a decent

9:57

user experience, dating apps,

9:59

and that's all dating apps. Have to have

10:01

enough people on them. And those

10:03

people have to be concentrated close

10:05

enough to each other for it to work because

10:07

typically you want to date people who live near you.

10:09

Right? For field, reps say

10:11

the number of users is in the millions, but they

10:13

wouldn't share details. They said the

10:15

app

10:16

has, quote, seen over one

10:18

percent user growth in users and revenue

10:20

over the past three years. And field

10:22

is betting that there is lot more growth to come

10:24

because it sees a real opportunity to be

10:26

the app for people who feel disenfranchised by

10:29

the standard one size fits all approach to

10:31

dating. There are strict

10:33

prescriptions of what a relationship

10:36

should do for you. There are

10:38

really limiting boundaries

10:41

around how relationship should work. And

10:43

they don't work for everyone. Monogamy is

10:45

an amazing system, I guess.

10:47

And it works for many

10:49

people, but it doesn't work for

10:51

a lot of people too. And

10:54

always defaulting to that because that's

10:56

the only option we know about

10:58

is a mistake. This is

11:00

Anna

11:00

Karova. And years ago, she was in

11:03

a heterosexual monogamous relationship

11:05

with her partner, Demotriven off.

11:09

After dating a while, Anna found herself

11:12

in a tough spot. For the first time,

11:14

she started to develop feelings for another

11:16

woman. She wasn't sure what to make of

11:18

it and felt really guilty about it.

11:21

It put to question my entire identity, and

11:23

it wasn't just about

11:23

sexuality. It was everything. Worried

11:26

that something would happen, she decided to tell

11:28

Demo about what was going on, thinking

11:30

it would lead to a breakup. But instead of

11:32

calling it off, Demo suggested they

11:34

continue dating and also began seeing

11:36

other people.

11:37

So we decided we'll try to date together

11:40

as a couple, so even though we're together will continue

11:42

dating. Also, it wasn't driven by

11:44

pure sexual desire. It was a

11:47

sincere interest to continue flooring

11:49

other people. And we tried dating

11:51

on a lot of other platforms, but

11:54

we always felt out of place

11:56

people would either they would either tell us go

11:58

to Swinger websites, which wasn't what

12:00

we were looking for, or they'd say, why

12:02

are you here? If you already found the

12:04

one, why are you so greedy? Anna

12:06

and Demo eventually started using fields

12:08

because mainstream apps are, by and

12:10

large, primarily designed for traditional

12:13

monogamous relationships. They're

12:15

selling the idea of finding the one, not

12:17

the second or the third. Anna

12:20

and Dima are still together and still

12:22

seeing other people. And this is

12:24

the part where I tell you that Anna is not only

12:26

an active field user to this

12:27

day, but she's also

12:30

the CEO of field. Her

12:34

partner Demo Trifinoff originally

12:36

created the app while trying to solve the problems

12:39

they were having on mainstream apps. Anna

12:41

later joined him in running the company. This

12:44

is all to say that the app is being guided by

12:46

people who genuinely understand and are a part

12:48

of the community they're serving. Which

12:50

brings us to our next key indicator

12:53

for success, understanding

12:55

user and intent. For

12:59

apps, it's really important to understand who

13:01

the app is for, a clear user.

13:03

If mainstream apps are for everyone, the

13:06

niche apps can only survive in their specificity.

13:09

In Feals case, it's pretty clear that the app is

13:11

for people who identify outside of mainstream

13:13

dating. Maybe that's someone exploring

13:15

King or dating more than one person at

13:17

time, AKA, non monogamy, that's

13:20

the user. I went on a couple dates

13:22

with a couple that I met on Hinge.

13:24

And then they were talking about how they usually

13:26

have more success finding people on field.

13:29

And then I was like, oh, maybe

13:31

I should be on that app because that's what I'm looking

13:33

for right now.

13:35

While it is possible to date couples, solicit

13:37

a threesome or be polyamorous on Hinge

13:39

and Bumble, it's a little more difficult. You're

13:42

basically swimming upstream against the monogamous

13:44

culture of those apps. So that's

13:46

the user. Now let's talk about

13:49

the intent part of this key indicator.

13:52

It's important for apps to know what users intend

13:55

to do on the app and how to facilitate that.

13:58

For Tinder and Bumble users, it's often difficult

14:00

to decipher what people's true intentions really

14:02

are. Field users come

14:04

to it with a wide variety of wants, but

14:06

they're often pretty clear about what those intentions

14:09

are. Three sums, Shibari

14:11

rope

14:11

tying, maybe a little subdom action,

14:14

or maybe just plain old dating. Yeah.

14:16

I think field really allows you

14:18

to put everything on the table in in the most

14:20

non judgmental way that I've seen.

14:23

Fields ability to cultivate a culture

14:25

around users being very up front

14:27

about what they are looking for goes a

14:29

long way as far as intent is concerned.

14:33

Eventually, this all gets boiled down to

14:35

dollars and cents. Because in order

14:37

for an app to continue working for users,

14:40

it also has to work as a business, which

14:43

brings us to our third and final

14:45

key indicator for success, profitability

14:49

and the potential for continued growth.

14:53

Field as a business says it's been profitable

14:55

for five years, which is huge. It's

14:57

something most independent dating apps never

14:59

achieve. Field has also taken

15:01

very little investment. So far just

15:03

half a million dollars. CEO

15:05

Anna Karova hinted the company might take

15:07

more soon as it continues to see growth

15:10

and attracts more investor interest. So

15:12

as far as profitability and future potential,

15:14

field appears to be in a good spot, but

15:17

can it be the next grinder and

15:19

app so successful that it's talked

15:21

about in the same conversation as Hinge

15:23

or Bumble. Grindr nailed all

15:25

those same key indicators to get where it

15:27

is today. Volume intensity.

15:29

Greinder has millions of active users. It's

15:32

global and it's growing, so check.

15:35

Next indicator, user and

15:37

intent. Grinder is so

15:39

crystal clear on who its user is.

15:42

LGBTQ and primarily gay

15:44

men and its intent to chat

15:46

and hook up. So understanding user

15:48

and intent, big check.

15:52

And lastly, profitability and

15:54

the potential for continued growth. Grinder

15:57

is profitable. It's now publicly traded

15:59

and more people are identifying as LGBTQ

16:01

than ever before, which means more potential

16:04

Grindr users. So once again,

16:06

check. That

16:08

growth though also benefits field, which

16:11

caters to queer communities. Another

16:13

demographic that's on the rise is ethical

16:15

non monogamy. Field CEO

16:18

Anna Karova sees these changes

16:20

as part of larger

16:21

shift. I think the

16:23

future of dating will start

16:25

looking less and less like an end game.

16:27

When you say

16:28

dating, It feels like something

16:30

that should stop at some point.

16:32

She says that more people are looking for a kind of

16:35

dating that doesn't have to end in monogamous partnership.

16:38

And that's where fields can help. Is

16:41

that enough to make it the next grinder? Maybe,

16:45

but the mainstream apps are trying to catch up.

16:47

Hinge, for example, recently added a feature

16:49

that allows users to list themselves as ethically

16:52

non monogamous. That move

16:54

acknowledges this cultural shift and may

16:56

even say something about field success. Oftentimes,

17:00

these shifts that begin within queer culture

17:02

will eventually make their way to the mainstream.

17:05

Remember, Grindr predates Tinder.

17:09

At some point, the mainstream does tend

17:11

to catch on, and helping make alternative

17:13

ways of dating Go mainstream likely

17:15

means more business for field in the future.

17:22

When we return, we're gonna talk to other founders

17:25

about other niche dating apps, and

17:27

we'll examine which apps are bound for success,

17:30

and which are destined to fail.

17:40

Support for this podcast comes from

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app. Okay.

20:31

We're back and we're trying to figure out which

20:33

niche dating apps are good for users

20:36

and makes sense as businesses. I

20:38

brought in my co host on the series, Sung Ji,

20:40

The Song Kurtz. Hello. Because

20:42

in a minute, we're gonna play a little game

20:44

where we look at some dating apps. Sangita,

20:48

you're going to tell me whether you think

20:50

each of these apps is a success or

20:52

a failure based on a

20:54

rubric, the one we talked about before

20:56

the break. Got it. That sounds good.

21:03

Okay, Sangita. This is a game

21:05

we're calling swipe right, swipe

21:08

left. Here's

21:12

how it works. I'm gonna present

21:14

you with a pitch for a real life

21:17

niche dating app. Then

21:19

you have to decide whether

21:21

or not to swipe left or right

21:23

on each

21:24

one. Basically, you're telling us

21:26

if you think this idea is working or

21:28

not. Okay. So I'm like a shark

21:30

tank judge. Yes. With no money,

21:32

but with no money.

21:34

Yes. All of these apps are real.

21:36

I wanna be clear about that. They currently

21:38

exist or existed at

21:40

some point. Some are having

21:42

success and others are no longer

21:45

in the App Store. But we've talked to

21:47

all of the founders of these apps,

21:49

and each one provided us with information

21:52

about their companies. So

21:54

swipe left if you're not confident

21:56

that this app will work and you're gonna swipe

21:58

right on the app if you think it's destined

22:00

for success. Let's do it. Let's

22:03

play.

22:07

Hi. My name is Brendan Alper,

22:09

and I'm from Brooklyn, New York. I'm seeking

22:11

two hundred thousand dollars for a five

22:13

percent stake in my

22:15

company, Hater. The only

22:17

company in the world that can make love

22:19

using the power of hate.

22:22

So Hater is an app and

22:24

it pairs people together based on the

22:26

things they hate instead of the things

22:28

they love. So think Harry

22:30

Potter, Guacamole, politicians,

22:33

you name it. When it comes to dating,

22:36

hating always gets overlooked. But

22:38

there are studies that show that people who

22:40

hate the same things actually form closer

22:42

bonds than people who love the same

22:44

things. Very interesting point. Yeah? Brandon

22:47

Alper, the founder, actually made it all

22:49

the way to the TV show Shark Tank

22:51

to seek out more investment money. According

22:54

to Alper, Overall, his app

22:56

has had around two million total

22:58

users and has received nearly a

23:00

million dollars in

23:01

funding. Okay. I mean,

23:03

I hate the idea of

23:05

hater. Really why? Because I

23:07

just feel like I know a couple couples

23:09

that, like, bond over things that they

23:12

hate. Yeah. And, like, that's their whole thing.

23:14

And it's, like, substanceless. Like,

23:17

where do you go after you talk about how

23:19

much you hate? Disney or

23:21

guacamole. Like,

23:24

where do you go from there? Yeah. I

23:26

agree. That makes total sense to me. I just

23:28

feel like anyone can come up with, like,

23:30

a dumb business idea and, like,

23:32

get a seed funding round. I know you

23:34

go on Shark Tank, but I

23:37

just I don't think it's a good idea.

23:39

Having things in common that you hate

23:41

is not enough of a sort of, like, social

23:44

tie. Okay. So, Sungita,

23:47

are you swiping left or right

23:49

on hater?

23:52

I am wiping left on hater,

23:54

which I hate. Linkedin.

23:58

Linkedin. Yes. Of course.

24:01

Didn't. What happened to it? Ugh. Unfortunately,

24:04

Hater no longer exists. Oh.

24:06

Brendan had to shut it down less than

24:09

two years after

24:10

launching. You know, there's things that are

24:12

really good ideas and then there are things that are really

24:14

good business ideas. And I think

24:16

it was a really good idea in the sense that

24:19

it resonated with a lot of people emotionally

24:21

and it certainly worked for a lot of people like I

24:23

still get people reaching out saying they got married

24:26

on Hater, which is pretty cool. But

24:28

in terms of it being

24:31

a good business idea, I think

24:33

dating in particular is just a very hard

24:35

market to break into because you need that

24:38

super saturated kind of like local

24:40

takeover?

24:41

That's exactly what I thought he was gonna

24:43

say. Alright. don't know what you envision,

24:46

but he was like such a delightful

24:48

dude. I was like actually really rooting for

24:50

him. I like that he had this idea of like

24:52

wanting to, you know, turn hate into love.

24:55

But, you know, for Alpert, Hater faced

24:57

a lot of problems. And as you outlined, the

24:59

main one being that classic

25:01

volume and density issue that is just

25:03

you

25:04

know, such a hurdle for anyone

25:06

trying to break into the market.

25:07

Yeah. And he really emphasized just

25:09

how much money it takes to get enough users

25:12

and how challenging

25:14

and expensive marketing is. I'm

25:16

talking, like, tens of millions of dollars. Like, I think

25:19

you need, like, serious kind of, like,

25:21

a, b, round, venture capital. And

25:23

you need, like, a really good team and you gotta be,

25:25

like, cut throat. After looking at a lot

25:28

of the data, and

25:30

also just seeing, you know, a million other dating

25:32

apps come and go. I think that

25:34

kind of everyone has their own idea for a dating

25:36

app But ultimately, what

25:38

happens is people tend to be

25:41

physical appearance first. And then, you know,

25:43

it's like, if think you're attractive enough,

25:45

then I will look into your personality and

25:47

I'll talk to you and we'll kind of figure it out.

25:49

And in order for that to work, you just need,

25:51

like, a huge pool of people. Like

25:54

that Trump's any sort of kind of

25:56

mechanism or dim

25:57

it. It's interesting there. Right?

25:59

It's not a mainstream app. But it was trying

26:01

to appeal to everyone because everyone, you

26:03

know, has something that

26:04

they hate. Yeah. And it's not targeting

26:06

specific demographic. So

26:08

in a weird way, it's trying to do the same

26:10

thing as bumble and hinge, which is

26:12

to throw everybody into a pool.

26:15

Right. And see who matches, but it

26:17

doesn't have the clear intention or

26:19

the clear user. So

26:22

some people might wanna get married and other people

26:24

might just be there to be like, I wanna hook up with

26:26

someone who also hates fennel

26:28

or something. So it's not

26:30

really solving the big problems

26:33

that mainstream apps have. Right.

26:35

Yeah. So it's also

26:37

worth noting that Hater got a ton

26:39

of media attention, but that didn't

26:41

seem to really matter. Hater

26:44

was a fun idea, but it wasn't

26:46

clear who it was for. That strike

26:48

one. It didn't nail user

26:50

or intent. And also

26:53

there weren't enough people on it to make it feel

26:55

appealing to users, strike

26:57

two, volume intensity, and

26:59

there wasn't enough money to fuel

27:01

growth. That strike three.

27:03

Yeah. Rest in peace hater. Sorry, you

27:05

were a bad idea.

27:07

I know. But I just I just

27:09

love that they tried. Yeah.

27:11

I don't, but Okay.

27:16

Are you ready for the next app? I'm ready. Okay.

27:18

Here we go. If

27:21

you're a cat loving single on

27:24

the prowl for the Perfect

27:26

date, ah, there's not for that.

27:28

Mhmm.

27:29

This is Tabby, a dating app

27:31

for cat lovers. Cat people

27:33

can have a hard time finding that special

27:36

someone who understands the

27:38

feline fancy.

27:40

Men in particular finds

27:42

that they get fewer matches when

27:44

they have a cat in their

27:45

photo. That can't be real.

27:48

My hater profile would say I hate

27:51

cats.

27:52

You know what I mean? Along

27:54

with its sister app dig, which is

27:56

for dog lovers, the apps

27:58

combined have a couple hundred thousands

28:00

of users. They also have something

28:02

that almost no other dating apps have

28:05

and what so many dating apps want.

28:08

A majority of their users are women.

28:11

This is a huge selling point because

28:13

for dating apps, there's this kind of night

28:15

club mentality. Let the women

28:17

in for free and the men will follow.

28:20

Also, about half of the country owns

28:22

a cat or a dog. So you're looking

28:24

at a huge potential user base.

28:27

And Tabby's gotten some of the best press

28:29

I've ever seen for dating app. It's also

28:31

been featured on Shark Tank, live with

28:33

Kelly and Ryan, the Drew Barry More Show,

28:36

and many others.

28:39

Alright. So what do you think, elongatea? Are

28:41

you swiping left or right

28:43

on teddy? Okay. This is

28:46

tricky. I want to swipe left

28:48

because I don't like cut, but

28:51

I feel like it's checking some of the boxes.

28:54

The user intent, especially, like,

28:56

I feel, like, if you

28:58

are a pet owner, you have a certain sort of,

29:00

like, lifestyle that comes with

29:02

that and you would want someone to

29:05

sort of accept that and be compatible

29:07

with that. I don't wanna, like, compare it to religion,

29:10

but, like, it's it means

29:12

that you live a certain type of way. You know what I mean?

29:15

And also we do know that, like,

29:17

men follow women to these apps.

29:20

But I don't know whether or not, like, it's

29:22

profitable. I'm

29:28

going to reluctantly swipe

29:31

right because I think they

29:33

might be onto

29:34

something. When

29:36

it comes to the app for cat and dog lovers,

29:39

Tabbie and Digg did not

29:41

make it. Well,

29:44

they were never able to grow their user base

29:46

big enough or reach profitability or

29:48

secure the funding they needed to continue

29:51

on. They seem to really struggle

29:53

with the old volume and density problem.

29:57

There's not lot of people on Tavy.

30:00

So we actually talked to a guy in New York

30:02

City who used Tavy a few

30:04

times and we'll just say his

30:06

experience was uneventful.

30:08

I'm a cat lover. I I own two cats myself.

30:11

I'm drawn to people with cats. You

30:13

know, apparently, the cat community

30:15

is not as large as I thought would be. There are

30:18

very few people who are actually in New York

30:20

City you know, I very quickly started

30:22

to see people from Hartford, Connecticut, or New

30:24

Jersey. The people who did show

30:26

up, they were not normally people I'd swipe

30:28

right for. A lot of them just fit

30:31

your perception of what a

30:33

crazy cat person. And so

30:35

I found

30:35

that, like, I love cats. I love dating.

30:38

But I didn't need to mix it to. I

30:41

got it quote. Like, I totally get

30:43

it. Like, people really, really love their pets.

30:45

And they think that somehow that's gonna be a conduit

30:48

to other people. But, like,

30:50

if you have a pet, I feel like it's more

30:52

of a a deal breaker --

30:55

The issue. -- then it is point of appeal

30:57

bonding issue, if that makes sense. Totally.

30:59

Totally. Then a point of appeal. Right? Yeah.

31:02

I think there are few clear takeaways here.

31:05

While Tammy had that clear target

31:07

user, being a cat person

31:09

is not really an identity that

31:11

most people think of as key

31:13

for seeking a partner, even though

31:15

it sounds like they might. think that's the thing.

31:17

It sounds like they might. And founder Lee

31:20

De Angelo was hoping that it

31:21

was. The way that passionate

31:24

pet people talk about their animals

31:27

has a lot of similarities with the way

31:29

people talk about their religion and their

31:31

lives. And so that's why we thought this would work.

31:33

That's why I thought it would work now.

31:36

I know. Right? Like, seems like this would be a

31:38

really good idea. And as we've already

31:40

seen with field and grinder, sexual

31:42

identity and preference is something

31:45

people hold strongly, and

31:47

they're willing to orient their dating life around

31:49

that. Unfortunately, for cabbie,

31:52

they don't do that with pet ownership. It's

31:54

more of a preference rather than a lifestyle.

31:58

And just like Hater, all that media

32:00

attention and the shark tank appearance

32:03

didn't end up being the boost they had hoped for.

32:06

Yeah. It's like that guy said, like, people

32:08

don't mix their pet lives and their dating

32:10

lives. In fact, it sounds like they're reluctant

32:13

to do that. No. But it's

32:14

kind of funny, like, what sounds good on shark

32:16

tank? Like, doesn't doesn't work.

32:18

It doesn't

32:18

work. Except for that sponge. Alright.

32:26

Next up, we have Muzz, which

32:29

is a dating app specifically for Muslims

32:31

looking to get

32:32

married.

32:33

The goal is finding a life partner as opposed

32:35

to casual dating.

32:37

That's Masa's founder, Shazad Yunus. Millions

32:40

of members on the platform. This stats gonna

32:42

blow your mind. Over three hundred and fifty thousand people

32:44

around the world have met their partner on Muzz.

32:47

Marriages, not just matches. Right? Yeah.

32:50

So a couple of things about Muzz. It's

32:52

a global app. It launched in

32:54

twenty fifteen and it has

32:56

around seven million users

32:59

overall. It raised around

33:01

nine million dollars and helped

33:03

a lot of Muslims get

33:05

married. They're so clear about

33:08

their user base and their intent

33:11

hundreds of thousands of marriages that's

33:13

like, we don't even have the statistics for,

33:16

like, Tindra and Hinge. They'll be, like,

33:18

blah blah blah, like, This number of couples

33:20

have matched or gone on dates

33:22

or had two hour conversations on our apps,

33:25

but we actually don't know. Whether they're

33:27

like in actual marriages. So,

33:29

yeah, I don't

33:30

know. I think this is a really good idea.

33:32

One thing about this app, though, is that there's

33:34

this kind of built in kill

33:36

switch. A person who uses

33:38

Muzz to get married is

33:41

no longer a long term user.

33:44

And it's tricky because that's

33:46

good for the reputation. Right? Like, do

33:48

you think the turnover rate would be good? We're losing

33:51

someone to marriage. But we're gaining someone who heard

33:53

about their marriage. You know what I mean? Mhmm.

33:55

So I still think if they have

33:57

enough volume, which it sounds like they

33:59

do, that they could survive,

34:02

like, pretty

34:03

neatly. So,

34:05

Sengita, are you gonna swipe

34:07

right or left on Muzz.

34:12

I'm gonna swipe right and I'm going to

34:14

invest in Muzz. I'm

34:16

gonna put money into this company.

34:20

Dang dang dang, you guys is working.

34:24

It's alive and growing. It's

34:26

nearly profitable and getting tens

34:28

of thousands of new sign ups Each

34:31

month, I think to understand part of its success,

34:33

you have to go back to user and intent.

34:35

It's very clear who the product is for,

34:38

Muslims. And what it's intended to

34:40

do. Help them get married. And

34:42

its users can't quite get the same

34:44

experience on the mainstream dating

34:47

apps. Muzz appears to

34:49

really understand their user base. Religion

34:52

like sexual identity is something people

34:54

deeply identify with. And

34:57

Musk says marriage is still pretty important

34:59

among Muslims, and there are nearly

35:01

two billion Muslims in the world.

35:03

Roughly three to four hundred

35:05

million of which are potential users.

35:08

So even though Muzz is niche, it

35:10

has a pretty huge potential user

35:12

base to work with. Your inclination

35:15

to invest was spot on.

35:19

Alright. So, Anita, are you ready for our final

35:21

app? Yes. Let's do it. So

35:26

in my own experience of specifically

35:28

wanting to date black men, the problem

35:31

for me was just the limited

35:33

numbers. So, you know, if I was

35:35

on any of the conventional apps and

35:37

was specifically looking for

35:39

black men there was just very

35:42

few that were on the apps. Okay.

35:44

So this next app wants to solve this

35:47

issue. It's called Bay. Which

35:49

stands for before anyone else. It's

35:51

a dating app for black singles. Right

35:54

now, there are around fifty million

35:56

black people just in the United States alone.

35:58

Bay has somewhere between half a million

36:01

and a million users so far. We

36:03

spoke to its co founder, Brian Girard, who

36:05

had the idea for Bay when he came across

36:07

a study that showed how different the

36:09

experience was for black people on

36:11

mainstream dating apps.

36:13

If you were black on a mainstream

36:15

dating app, you were ten times less likely to

36:17

get a match, ten times less likely

36:19

to get a message, and I believe the number

36:22

was eighty two percent of black women were

36:24

experiencing some type of racial

36:26

bias while on those dating

36:28

apps.

36:29

So Gerrard saw this and started his

36:31

own dating app for black singles. You

36:33

can look at that as glass is half full or

36:35

glass is half empty and decided to look at it

36:37

as a glass is is half full

36:40

and that there was a underserved market.

36:43

This is interesting because I I

36:45

think we've heard from a lot of users that

36:48

are using the mainstream apps that

36:50

are non white, that they do

36:52

have the shittiest experience

36:54

around them, you know, a lot of -- Yeah. -- harassment

36:57

or just, like, not getting any matches or

37:00

And from what we've learned in our reporting

37:03

is that the apps Tinder Hinge, etcetera,

37:05

are, like, only now looking at

37:07

these problems. And their apps, they're like, they have

37:09

not they were not baked into functionality

37:12

from the get go, but it's been ten years.

37:15

Yeah. I just wonder about volume.

37:18

I I don't know. I don't know if this is strong enough.

37:20

Oh, yeah. But I'm not

37:23

buying that. The indicators

37:25

of money to come are strong

37:27

enough. Mhmm. So

37:29

unfortunately, I think I'm

37:31

a swipe left. You

37:35

are correct, Sungita. Okay. This

37:37

is it. Bay unfortunately

37:40

no longer exists. But

37:42

it did get acquired by a much larger app

37:44

that folded both the Bay team and its

37:46

users into that

37:47

product. But Bay as we once

37:49

knew is no more.

37:51

When I look at Bay, I see an app trying to

37:53

do something good and solve a real problem

37:55

in dating. But I don't feel like

37:57

Bay had the best solution for that problem.

38:00

The app was vaguely for black millennial

38:02

singles, its users, but it didn't

38:05

have a clear intent, a rally

38:07

around other things like shared values or

38:09

have key product differences. Brian

38:11

Girard, the former CEO, also told us

38:13

that the app never made any money. In

38:15

fact, it was always and never had

38:17

a paid tier because at the time most dating

38:19

app strategy was just to acquire a bunch

38:21

of users and then figure out how to make money later.

38:24

So their only monetization strategy was

38:26

to get acquired or raise a bunch of

38:28

money. And

38:29

unfortunately, investor after investor

38:31

passed on bay. Couple

38:33

reasons why. I think the problem

38:36

wasn't well understood by the investment

38:38

audience and people like

38:40

to invest in things that they

38:42

empathize or relate to in the struggles

38:45

of black women in the dating market

38:47

black black men to to maybe a lesser

38:49

degree. Doesn't really resonate with people

38:52

who write checks in today's world.

38:54

Yeah. That makes I mean, it's just what we were

38:56

talking about. Like, these ups are only

38:58

just now looking at these problems.

39:01

Sadly, this is a pretty common story for

39:03

black businesses and tech. But Gerrard

39:05

says dating apps in general are usually

39:07

just a tough business. The exit

39:09

strategies are limited, and when Bay was around,

39:12

people hadn't really warmed up to the idea of

39:14

paying for a dating app. Yet, the investor

39:16

logic at the time was that either you had to be

39:18

huge like Tinder or you were gonna fail. So

39:21

not a lot of apps were getting funding. Gerard

39:24

says if he were to create Bay all over,

39:26

he would have made a paid tier because nowadays

39:28

users are much more comfortable paying for dating

39:30

apps. He do that and

39:32

really focus on cities with a high population

39:35

of black singles to localize the

39:37

experience. He still thinks Bay could

39:39

be a profitable business. Leave the

39:41

most common black relationship is black

39:43

folks dating other black folks, so think

39:45

there is is an intent there as well too.

39:49

You know, III think there's a business in

39:51

there that can do tens of millions

39:53

of dollars a year of of revenue

39:55

for

39:56

sure.

39:56

I think was bad timing and just needed a slight

39:59

tweak to the model. Yeah. Brian,

40:01

come back. Back. Tricon.

40:07

Alright. That's gonna do it for swipe right.

40:09

Swipe left. Sengita, thanks for

40:11

playing.

40:12

Yeah. Thank you for having me. It was

40:14

fun. You got three out of four, which

40:16

is good. It's like a well, I guess

40:18

it's a c, but I think that's really good.

40:20

Yeah. C's and get degrees.

40:23

Oh. One

40:35

thing that stuck out to me while speaking to the CEOs

40:38

of these now defunct dating apps is

40:40

that they all seem to think that if they'd just gotten

40:42

a certain amount of funding, their apps would

40:44

have succeeded. It's possible.

40:47

But as we know, it's incredibly hard

40:49

to become profitable. It's even harder

40:52

to go public. The most likely

40:54

path ends in failure. Some

40:57

companies do get acquired though, but

40:59

oftentimes it's by that dating giant with

41:01

deep pockets. Match Group.

41:04

We've gone out of our way today to spotlight

41:06

companies operating outside of the Match

41:08

Group Empire. But match cast

41:10

a long shadow because it's attempting to dominate

41:12

the entire dating market, not just

41:14

the mainstream apps. It

41:17

recently acquired the League and exclusive dating

41:19

app for ambitious well educated types.

41:22

It owns ChiSpa and App For Latinos, BLK,

41:25

and App For Black Singles and Hawaiian app for

41:27

Muslims. It seems like for every

41:29

niche app we've looked at, Match has

41:31

already acquired or launched a direct competitor.

41:35

But ultimately, users don't care about match.

41:37

They care about matches. And

41:39

having a good experience on whatever dating

41:41

app they choose, which often means

41:44

not choosing using niche apps

41:46

and mainstream apps. You don't

41:48

have to pick either or. Everyone

41:51

who's on Muzz is also on Tinder. Lee

41:53

Isaacson, the founder of Dig and Tabby,

41:56

said she always knew her apps were supplemental.

41:58

You have a space that's dedicated

42:01

to what you're looking for. You

42:03

add it. And that's what we always

42:05

knew we were filling that space. We weren't

42:07

gonna be the ones that you could scroll all day

42:09

forever. We were gonna be the ones

42:12

that presented you with something you can actually

42:14

take action on without having to spend that

42:16

incredible amount of time sifting through

42:18

and

42:18

filtering. In the end,

42:21

most knee shops won't be able to provide

42:23

that crucial part of the experience, having

42:26

enough people to swipe through AKA

42:29

volume and density. Meaning,

42:31

the majority of folks will continue to

42:33

gravitate to the mainstream

42:35

apps. Because to put it simply,

42:37

that's just where the people are. way

42:41

out by particular these, like, I wanna find a partner,

42:43

and they all seem

42:45

to present that possibility. And

42:47

I think the ones that are more feel literally

42:49

used for present like deeper

42:52

pool of potential

42:53

candidates. And so I tend

42:55

to actually meet up with people in

42:57

person. From bumble and itch because

42:59

there's just more people associated with those.

43:12

Next week for our season finale, we

43:14

discuss the future of dating. And try

43:16

to answer the question, where do we

43:18

go from here? Archival

43:23

clips from CBS Sunday Morning,

43:25

The New York Stock Exchange, Yahoo

43:28

Finance Live Shark

43:29

Tank, the Drew Barry Moore Show, and

43:31

FOX AWGHP. Land

43:34

of