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Hi, did you know that

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That's when the cannibalism started. What

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was that? Oh,

1:03

God, she's not waking

1:05

up. Oh,

1:14

God, she's not waking up. Trevor,

1:17

what are we going to do,

1:19

Trevor? I'm in law school. Get

1:21

the poppers, man. Oh,

1:24

Trevor, man, we're in trouble

1:26

deep, friend. It

1:29

doesn't fucking matter. Play with

1:32

my boy. Play with my fucking boy. Welcome to

1:34

the last podcast on the left, ladies and gentlemen.

1:36

Really fun way to get into it. I'm Marcus

1:38

Parks. I'm here with Henry Zabrowski

1:40

and Ed Larson. And we're on spring break,

1:42

y'all. We are on spring break.

1:44

We're having a good time. I'm showing him.

1:47

Yeah, he is. And, ooh, the beads

1:50

are accumulating. But

1:52

you aren't on spring break, so you have

1:55

to hear us talk. And this

1:57

was fun as hell, is that we recorded this

1:59

interview with this incredible. a incredibly fascinating

2:01

woman, Karen Conte, who worked with...

2:04

Would you say your favorite, Eddie? Uh,

2:07

I would... I want to say my favorite.

2:10

I like him because I always root for

2:13

the fat guy. Y'all do. You

2:15

know, like, that's why I think he

2:17

might be my favorite, but only because

2:19

he's fat. Well, he's getting edgy over

2:21

it. It's in the fat quarterback. That

2:23

quarterback is now my favorite quarterback. Oh,

2:25

yeah, but Cecil Fielder. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2:28

Cecil Fielder was a baseball player. My

2:30

favorite, what we like to say here

2:32

is we like to say most interesting. Who we

2:35

find the most interesting. That works. Yeah,

2:37

yeah, yeah. Who we find the

2:39

most interesting is John Wayne Gacy. And

2:41

John Wayne Gacy was represented by Karen

2:43

Conte when he was on death row,

2:45

and she wrote a book about it

2:47

called Killing Time with John Wayne Gacy

2:49

Defending America's Most Evil Serial Killer on

2:51

Death Row. She's got

2:54

some stories. She does. Oh, my

2:56

gosh. I mean, imagine that just like every

2:58

day you go in and you're just hanging

3:01

with Gacy. You know,

3:03

though, honestly, I kind of know what it feels

3:05

like now. So

3:08

here it is, our interview with Karen

3:10

Conte and Joy very much, ladies and

3:12

gentlemen. Guys, from Northland.

3:15

All right, people, we are here with

3:17

the author of Killing Time with John

3:19

Wayne Gacy Defending America's Most Evil Serial

3:22

Killer on Death Row. Karen

3:24

Conte, how are you doing today? Doing

3:27

really well. I'm so excited to be on

3:29

your podcast. This is amazing. I

3:31

just want to say, number one, does meeting John Wayne Gacy

3:34

when you meet him or you're like, God, I

3:36

love being a lawyer. No,

3:40

usually I don't get asked that. The question I

3:42

usually get asked is, were you afraid of him? You

3:46

guys would know. The answer is no. No. You

3:49

know, he was as normal as can be. He

3:52

was like your favorite uncle. And

3:54

what was chilling was to know that the

3:56

gacies of the world are out there looking

3:58

completely normal. And you

4:01

just look around you and you wonder who am

4:03

I working with? Who am I sitting on the

4:05

bus with? Who's just like Gacy, normal on the

4:07

outside, but a horror show on the inside? Well,

4:10

first of all, let's start with what

4:12

your relationship with Gacy was. Well,

4:14

first of all, Gacy was committing his

4:17

crimes in the 70s and I was

4:19

in high school at the time. So he

4:21

was sentenced to death for killing 33

4:24

young men and boys, burying most of them under his

4:26

house. So flash ahead. I'm now a lawyer.

4:28

I'm going to go down there and I

4:31

was just curious. I didn't have any intention

4:33

of really representing him because I never did

4:35

a death penalty case before I didn't do

4:37

criminal defense on that level. And

4:40

so, but I wanted to look evil in the eyes. So I did.

4:43

And when I got down there, I realized I wanted to

4:45

represent him in his death row appeals because I've never

4:47

believed in the death penalty. It's just something that

4:49

I don't believe in that in for Gacy's of

4:51

the world. I think it's wrong, but

4:54

I had to develop a relationship with him. I had

4:56

to talk to him. I was on the phone with

4:59

him every day. I spent hours on death row with

5:01

him. And so I kind of developed a

5:03

very friendly relationship with him. I'm not saying

5:06

I was his friend, but it was congenial.

5:08

It was humorous. He

5:11

was kind to me. He was kinder to me than

5:13

the other lawyers, I think, because I was a female.

5:17

But I will tell you that I have had

5:19

other clients who have been a lot less

5:21

likable than John Wayne Gacy. Wow.

5:24

That's a... what a heck of a report

5:26

guard. Can

5:28

I ask, like, when you... One

5:31

thing just to clear up legal-wise, what

5:33

is the difference when you're trying a

5:35

case for the first time than when

5:37

you're going through an appeals process? As

5:40

you're walking him through, what is different about that

5:42

than if you were going to be representing him

5:44

first up? Well, you know,

5:46

a trial, you're going to trial with him.

5:48

You're getting all the tests to make sure

5:51

that he's not insane. You're

5:53

preparing for trial, looking at exhibits,

5:55

and doing all that kind of stuff,

5:57

preparing cross-examination and the like. That's

6:00

a daily issue. The appeals

6:02

are far removed from the trial. And by

6:04

the time I got involved, we were trying

6:06

to get him out of jail. We were

6:09

trying to say he was actually innocent because that

6:11

would have been going nowhere. But what

6:13

we were trying to do was to stop

6:15

the execution. And there are a whole bunch

6:17

of arguments that death penalty lawyers make in

6:19

that regard, regarding the method of execution, and

6:22

that's cool and unusual, and those

6:24

types of things. So they're more creative,

6:27

they're more removed, and you're

6:29

going to the appellate court, not a trial

6:31

court every day. So he

6:33

is like, it's a less intense process. And

6:35

would you say that then he has more

6:37

kind of say with how

6:39

it's done? Like, do you feel like, what

6:41

is a more client-centered approach? Is

6:44

it the original or the appeals? Like,

6:46

maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I just don't

6:48

understand, because I'm done. Well, in a

6:50

trial, you're sitting by your client day in and

6:52

day out for a period of time, whether that's two

6:54

months or six weeks or two days. So

6:57

you're with that client the whole time, and

6:59

you're going into the jail cell at night

7:01

to prepare him for the next day. And

7:03

yes, there are strategy things you have to

7:06

do, but in an appeals process, you're not

7:08

just doing one thing. You have all these

7:10

different appeals going. You want to stop the

7:12

execution this way. We have an international appeal

7:14

we're filing in Washington. We're

7:16

filing cases to the US Supreme Court, and

7:19

we're submitting them. So it's intense

7:21

in that there's a lot of work involved, and

7:23

some of them are work that you have to

7:25

do overnight, because you have time deadlines, but

7:28

you're not sitting with him all day

7:30

long making those decisions and trying the

7:32

case. But you do need someone's cooperation

7:35

when you're having these appeals

7:37

filed, because you need him to approve

7:39

of what you're doing. Yeah,

7:41

so when you were interacting with

7:43

John Wayne Gacy on those times that you

7:45

had to go see him, what were you

7:47

talking to him about? Like, what were you

7:49

talking about, strategy, or just

7:52

getting to know him as a client? Well,

7:54

he was a client, both. And

7:56

in order to get to him, to get him to

7:58

talk to me about the decisions he needed

8:00

to make, you had to kind of manipulate

8:03

him back. He was a very manipulative guy,

8:05

so he would divert your attention. He'd talk

8:07

to me about something personal because he wanted

8:09

to get information from me, so he could

8:11

use it later to try to manipulate me.

8:13

That's how he was. But he was better

8:15

with me than with the male lawyers, so

8:17

he was actually very soft and feminine with

8:20

me. He talked about cooking, he talked about

8:22

gardening, and so we

8:24

would have a good half an hour where we

8:26

would just talk BS. And

8:28

then that would get him to relax, and then

8:30

I'd present the things that we needed to have

8:32

him sign on. And he was very oppositional. I

8:34

don't know if you've ever been around someone who,

8:37

if you say yes, he's going to say no.

8:39

You say no, he's going to say yes. So,

8:41

Gacy had to do the end run to kind

8:43

of make him think that he thought up this

8:45

great appeal, and then

8:47

he would finally eventually sign on.

8:49

But I spent a lot of time asking

8:51

him questions that had nothing to do with the

8:54

appeals just because I'm a curious human being. And

8:56

I wanted to figure out why

8:58

did he become what he became? Yeah,

9:01

what did you say? Yeah, how did you open that door? Well,

9:06

you know, I would just talk to him. I'd say,

9:08

John, you know, you're sitting here, you're accused of

9:10

all these things. You know, these young men

9:12

and boys buried under your house, and he

9:15

denied he did it. And I said, well, then

9:17

how did they get there? He says, the only thing

9:19

I'm guilty of is running a cemetery without a license.

9:21

Wow. So, that was that he

9:24

used that line on you. That's such a

9:26

classic true crime line. It's a classic true

9:28

crime line. And Gacy may have

9:30

originated though. So, that was a long time ago.

9:32

So, yeah, you know, I would say things I

9:35

would would be direct with them. I'd say, you

9:37

know, John, I read a lot of the psychiatric

9:39

reports and felt like your dad was a real

9:41

ogre. And he used to beat you up and

9:43

call you gay and call you all these different

9:45

kinds of things. And then he would fight me

9:47

on it. See, my dad wasn't that bad, but,

9:49

you know, he was a son of a bitch.

9:51

And, yeah, he did do that. And I

9:54

asked him about being sexually abused because that's in

9:56

the psychiatric reports. He refused to talk to me

9:58

really about that. I asked

10:00

him a lot of questions about his

10:02

childhood. It seemed to me that he

10:04

was always aseminate. And he grew up

10:06

with this name, John Wayne, Gacy. And

10:09

John Wayne, of course, was the macho

10:11

cowboy who his father

10:13

wanted him to take after. And

10:15

he wasn't that. He wasn't athletic. He didn't like

10:18

to hunt and fish and do all the things

10:20

that boys do. And

10:22

so he really gravitated toward his mother

10:24

who was a kind, loving person. He had two

10:26

sisters who are fabulous. In fact, I became friends

10:28

with one of them for the last 30 years.

10:31

And he really liked his wives that

10:34

we married. So he liked

10:36

women. He associated with them more than

10:38

men. And so that

10:40

was a big part of how I dealt with him.

10:43

Now, did you work for the state? Did

10:46

he employ you? Who paid you? Nobody

10:48

paid me. Really? Really?

10:51

Really? So at that point, So

10:54

buy the book. Yes. I

10:57

have a few of them actually. Yeah.

11:03

So at that point, all the traditional

11:05

appeals were done. So he had run out

11:07

of state funded attorneys. And so everyone

11:09

at that point volunteers. And if you do

11:11

this kind of work, if you do

11:13

criminal defense work, it's very common that you

11:16

take on some causes that are high

11:18

profile in nature or important in the cause.

11:21

And we do this for, you know, we

11:23

do this for sub-releases. First, we believe in

11:25

the cause. And when you're representing a John

11:27

Wayne Gacy, you're not just representing him, you're

11:30

representing all the people on death row, not

11:32

only in Illinois, but all over. And

11:34

you're making these arguments to kind of

11:36

move the needle forward, pardon the pun,

11:39

to abolish the death penalty. So

11:44

we take on these cases because they're important.

11:47

And, you know, I say we donated about a

11:49

quarter of a million dollars to the Gacy fund.

11:52

And that was real hard on us. That was,

11:54

you know, that's not easy on anyone. And it

11:56

wasn't easy on us. What is

11:58

your positioning? the appeal. So

12:01

what was your case for

12:03

John Wayne Gacy to say that he was innocent, that

12:05

he should not go to the death penalty? There

12:08

were a bunch of them. One of them was in

12:10

an international commission. The machine in

12:12

Illinois that's used was invented by

12:14

a Holocaust revisionist. And

12:17

he used Nazi research to

12:19

create this machine. He wasn't

12:21

a doctor. He wasn't an engineer. He

12:23

was just, I would say,

12:26

an idiot. He was just a guy? He

12:28

was just a guy, a random guy. He

12:30

had been arrested for denying the

12:32

Holocaust happened, which is a crime in

12:34

certain countries. And he went

12:36

to Nazi research. And he can't do that.

12:38

He can't use Nazi research to invent or

12:41

do anything because it's obviously wrong morally and

12:43

it's against international treaty. But that's all.

12:46

I won't even buy a VW bunk. Exactly,

12:48

right? And by the

12:50

way, all executioners and everyone who comes

12:53

up with executions are all just guys.

12:55

There's no university to go to for

12:57

execution. There should be. Like being a

12:59

studio executive. Well,

13:01

and there's no doctors can't be

13:03

involved. Yeah, Hippocratic oath. Hippocratic oath.

13:06

And they can't inject the lethal

13:08

inject. They can't do that. They would lose their license.

13:10

So you have all these

13:12

amateurs making these amateur machines and you

13:14

have the amateurs injecting and the

13:17

clients are getting clogged and you see them

13:19

all the time, the botched executions. That's what

13:21

happened with Gacy. And we also predicted it

13:23

wasn't going to work because it had malfunctioned

13:25

in the past and it in fact did.

13:27

So we made these arguments that that was

13:29

cruel and unusual. We made the arguments that

13:31

a doctor should have been the one doing

13:33

it but couldn't. And therefore there was no

13:35

execution. We made some actually

13:37

the best argument we made. Nobody

13:39

listened to. It's a little complicated, but

13:42

Gacy got only seven death

13:44

sentences out of the 33 because during

13:47

the time the other boys and men were killed,

13:49

we didn't have a death penalty because it was

13:51

deemed unconstitutional. So we found

13:54

his records. His records were

13:56

in storage and they showed

13:58

meticulously that he was out of town. during

14:00

most of those seven murders. And you're

14:02

asking me, well, then what happened? He

14:05

and other boys and men living with him

14:07

at the time, and two of

14:09

them testified they dug the trenches, and it's

14:11

beyond my comprehension that they didn't

14:14

know what was going on and

14:16

that they didn't actually participate in some

14:18

of these deaths. And in fact,

14:20

one victim who escaped with

14:22

horrible injuries told the police

14:24

that there was more than one perpetrator inflicting

14:27

the harm on him. So I

14:29

think those other boys either helped him or

14:33

did some of them on their own. I

14:38

think this is a part where I am

14:40

fascinated. I saw an interview that you did

14:43

that you guys were all kind of banding

14:45

about this idea that John Wayne Gacy might

14:47

have been inspired by Dean

14:49

Quarrel and that the serial killer Dean Quarrel,

14:52

and that some of that the idea of

14:54

the torture board and using

14:56

kids as accomplices was like he

14:58

might have been inspired by that

15:01

coverage. Like, is there any real

15:04

hard evidence? Because the guy you brought

15:06

up was Philip Paskey. That

15:09

was like he was somewhere he was working.

15:11

Because I got fascinated with the connection of

15:13

Dean Quarrel, John Wayne Gacy, and this man

15:15

by the name of John David Norman, that

15:17

I'm trying to figure out how you put

15:19

all of this together, who was a child

15:21

pornographer, who was a

15:23

distributor of child pornography across the country. And

15:25

there was rumors that some of Dean Quarrel's

15:28

victims were featured in some of the video

15:30

work that John David Norman

15:32

had sold. Now, like, is there any physical

15:34

evidence that ties anything? Or is this still

15:36

just sort of like, well, he just wasn't

15:38

there. So it might have been one of

15:40

these people. I

15:43

don't think that the researchers who

15:45

have devoted literally their lives to

15:47

looking at these intersections have come

15:49

up with any definitive fact that

15:51

ties them together. There are a

15:53

lot of coincidences. Like you said,

15:55

the method of execution, it was

15:57

like Gacy read the playbook. of

16:00

Dean Coral. And the whole idea that Dean

16:02

Coral had two apprentices who were, he, they

16:04

would go out and procure the boys and

16:07

they would get paid per boy. And if

16:09

they were good looking, they would get paid

16:11

more. But there was very, very similar things.

16:13

And there's a lot of speculation from people

16:16

who know more than I do, that

16:18

there could have been just a ring of

16:20

men who liked this kind of thing. And

16:23

that Gacy may have been recording this stuff.

16:25

There may have been a snuff film operation.

16:27

They apparently took a lot of sophisticated,

16:30

at the time, film equipment

16:33

out of Gacy's house that was never

16:35

seen again. Apparently, Gacy had lists of

16:37

people that were also, they were

16:40

never found again, important people that may have been part

16:42

of a ring of this

16:44

type. So, you know, we, we

16:46

can speculate, but I just

16:48

don't have any specific facts that definitively

16:50

tells us that that's what happened. And

16:53

none of his art runners, like, because of the

16:55

time when you were working with him, like

16:58

that was also, it was, it was this

17:00

after he already was told he could not

17:02

profit off of his paintings anymore

17:04

and like his work. Well, first

17:07

of all, a lot of people don't know

17:09

this, but the son of Sam laws were

17:11

all stricken down because the First Amendment allows

17:13

prisoners to do their art and to make

17:16

money. But what they, what

17:18

the prison did to Gacy was there's

17:20

a statute in the only that says

17:22

if you can afford your incarceration, then

17:24

you have to pay. So at the time it was like

17:27

$35,000 a year to stay

17:30

at Chellé Minard correction.

17:33

And so they sued him. And so of

17:35

course, Gacy said, well, just evict me. Yeah.

17:40

So actually we handled that case and

17:42

we used it to say, Hey, you

17:44

know what, you sued Gacy. So we

17:46

have to extend the execution until the

17:48

case is resolved. So the state resolved

17:50

the case very quickly and Gacy didn't

17:52

pay anything because he really, he really

17:54

truly didn't have much at all. Well I

17:57

know like Gacy, like to

17:59

that point, like Gacy is one of the

18:01

one of the few serial killers who had

18:03

like kind of an entourage on the outside

18:05

Like did you have any dealings with those

18:07

people that kind of did gacy's bidding on

18:09

the outside? I did one

18:11

of them was a relative and There

18:14

were a couple lawyers who were involved and I and I

18:16

don't really know exactly what they got out of it But

18:18

I'm sure they got something out of it But that was

18:21

that was how gacy worked in fact One

18:24

of the creepiest things about representing gacy was

18:26

he had this book that he called

18:28

the body book that was

18:30

a scrapbook of every single one of

18:32

his victims color-coded tab and He

18:35

had enlisted and paid a

18:37

private investigator up in Canada to

18:40

go and get all these pictures from

18:42

the yearbooks of these boys the Family

18:45

home the family dog the Little League

18:47

newspaper article the day the kid went

18:50

missing the article that was so this

18:52

was at a time Before the internet

18:54

so this guy would have to have

18:56

gone to the newspapers and got the

18:58

microfiche or the newspapers and cut them

19:01

out So this was a lot of

19:03

work and it was very expensive, but that's what

19:05

gacy did when he had money He

19:07

would get people to do

19:09

his bidding what whatever that was Wow,

19:12

so how did it did you ever like

19:14

kind of ask him? Well, if you didn't

19:17

kill any of these kids, where are you

19:19

keeping a scrapbook of? Every

19:21

single one of them. Oh, yeah, and I

19:23

said John. Why are you calling it a

19:26

body book? These are boys and men they're

19:28

human beings and he

19:30

responded to me. Well, what were they doing

19:32

out late that night anyway? so

19:36

That's when you catch gacy off guard and

19:39

he tells you what he really thinks which

19:41

is they're not human beings That's what he

19:43

told me did John. How come John Wayne

19:45

DC? Do why do you think he didn't

19:48

throw his accomplices under the bus? Yeah, that

19:50

was my I guess that's my one question

19:52

Do you think that he just like because

19:54

I feel like Dean coral got

19:56

close and they stopped in curl

19:59

got killed Like he got

20:01

killed before he even... By one of his

20:03

apprentices. Yeah, but before he even spoke with

20:05

police, Dean Korol was... But

20:07

I think that you could see maybe at

20:09

some point, because there were saying right there,

20:12

Wayne, what's his name? He

20:14

maybe saw for a second, oh, I might be

20:16

next. I might be on this

20:19

block. Yeah. Kind of what we talk

20:21

about with the Ken and Barbie murders with Karla

20:23

Homoka, and we wonder whether or not she felt

20:25

the same way. Oh, maybe I'm next. Maybe it's

20:27

time for me to flip. Like I wonder why

20:29

no one, he wouldn't have

20:31

just been like, I didn't do it. Here's the five

20:33

guys that did it. Yeah. I have

20:35

a couple thoughts on that. I think

20:37

that my strongest thought is

20:39

that he wanted credit for all of them. And

20:43

that he's going to go down, you know,

20:45

and he's going to be executed. Because even if he killed

20:47

two of them, he still would,

20:49

you know, he probably would have stayed

20:52

in jail or gotten the debt penalty.

20:56

I think he wanted credit for all of them.

20:58

I had a really interesting conversation with him. I

21:00

was talking about Henry Lee Lucas, and I said,

21:03

John, Henry Lee Lucas, like he's blowing your

21:05

numbers out of the water. I would kid

21:07

him. He would get so mad. And

21:10

he knew all the things. This is

21:12

no internet, right? They didn't know that back then, and he

21:14

wouldn't have had it in the prison. He knew all

21:16

about the things. He was tagged with 232. He

21:20

didn't do all those. They wanted to close cases.

21:22

There's no way he did that. That guy's a

21:24

fraud. You know, he would have these arguments with

21:26

me. So I think he was in

21:28

a way proud of his world record,

21:30

which it was at the time. So

21:33

as creepy as that is, I think that was

21:35

the main reason. I also heard some

21:37

talk that John Wayne Gacy, it is

21:39

quite possible that he killed outside of

21:41

his home and he killed when he

21:44

was on the road. Have

21:46

you heard any of that or

21:48

what are your thoughts on the idea that John

21:50

Wayne Gacy might have had other murders attached to

21:52

him, but way outside of his house? Well,

21:56

remember that Gacy was convicted

21:58

of molesting. young

22:00

man in Iowa before he started his

22:02

killing spree in Chicago. He was sentenced

22:04

to 10 years, he served two. And

22:08

there are people who I know who

22:10

have researched this, that tie

22:12

Gacy to two murders up in Iowa

22:15

before that happened. I don't have confirming

22:17

facts on that. But that's very possible.

22:19

When he got to Chicago, you know,

22:21

he started this crime spree and it

22:24

started to escalate. There were nights where

22:26

he would go out and abduct one

22:28

child and go back and abduct another one and then

22:30

kill and go back and do another one. You

22:32

know, and so he was escalating. Though

22:35

during this time he was out of

22:37

town doing these like wrestlers, ice cream

22:39

construction jobs. So we saw his records,

22:41

he was in rural Wisconsin, he was

22:43

in Pacific Northwest, he was in Florida. And

22:46

you can't tell me that he would

22:48

take a three week trip during his

22:50

crime spree and not continue it,

22:52

particularly because these places, it would

22:54

have been easier for him to

22:56

get boys and obviously

22:59

to do his dirty deeds and to bury

23:01

them. So, you know,

23:03

someday some really ambitious

23:06

podcaster is going to go and look

23:08

at those records and figure out where

23:10

in Wisconsin he was, when were there boys

23:12

and men who went missing during that time

23:14

and maybe tie them to Gacy. I don't

23:16

know that we'll ever get a definitive answer,

23:19

but my guess is that yes, there are

23:21

other victims. Yeah, I saw a

23:23

really good documentary on the Soft White Underbelly

23:25

YouTube channel of someone talking about how they

23:27

are dead certain that they were near miss

23:30

from John Wayne Gacy while he was staying

23:32

at a motel. And it's

23:34

very interesting. So yeah, I do feel like yeah,

23:36

why would he pause being John

23:38

Wayne Gacy because he's on a work

23:40

trip. Yeah. And there's also, I know

23:42

there's also a lot of speculation that

23:44

he murdered or that he buried other

23:46

victims at some of the construction sites

23:48

like around Chicago. So it's likely

23:51

that it was far more than just 33. But

23:53

you know, one of the questions I want to

23:55

ask is as far as, you know, saving him

23:57

from, you know, are trying to get a job.

24:00

trying to save him from being executed. I mean,

24:02

I know part of the reason, I

24:04

mean, all of us are also anti-death penalty people.

24:07

And it's not just because it's

24:10

morally wrong, but because you also

24:12

lose whatever information that

24:14

person may have had when

24:16

they died. So what secrets do

24:18

you think died with John Wayne Gacy that

24:21

we may have gotten out of him eventually? I

24:24

think the two things we talked about are probably

24:26

the top ones. And that is more

24:30

victims and more perpetrators. But

24:32

it could be that we could have cut

24:34

a deal for him to live the rest

24:36

of his life in prison. And he

24:38

could have given us some information like

24:40

about this crime ring, or was

24:42

there a snuff film operation, or were there

24:45

other police, were there police who

24:47

were covering for him? And again, I

24:49

don't wanna be a conspiracy theorist, but if

24:52

you read in my book and you read some of

24:54

the other books on Gacy, he was caught so many

24:56

times where a kid would disappear.

24:58

Mr. Gacy said, the cop, you

25:01

were last seen with this kid, where'd he go? I

25:03

don't know, he's a runaway, I have no idea. Happened

25:05

time and time again. The kid who gets out totally

25:08

damaged from Gacy, Gacy

25:10

gets charged, police dropped the

25:12

charges. How come they didn't

25:15

know that Iowa, there was that conviction in

25:17

Iowa. And I know we didn't have the

25:19

database at the time, but someone should have

25:21

known that he had served time for the

25:24

same thing that kind of was looking like

25:26

it was happening. There were so

25:28

many passes that he got. Was someone

25:30

protecting him? Then, I don't know,

25:32

but that's something that I would like to

25:34

have known from Gacy. Well, do

25:36

you think that has something to do with just

25:39

the inherent homophobia of police officers? Because we've seen

25:41

that, well, we saw that with Dean Kroll, we

25:43

saw that with Jeffrey Dahmer. We

25:46

saw it again and again, where for the

25:48

longest time police just thought anything having to

25:50

do with homosexuality was a little bit

25:52

icky, and they just kind of didn't want to deal

25:54

with it. Do you think maybe Gacy had something to

25:56

do with, like, Gacy going free,

25:58

had something to do with that? I

26:01

absolutely think that's the case. I also

26:03

think that a lot of these boys,

26:05

not all of them, were runaways or

26:07

male prostitutes or the police thought they

26:09

were male prostitutes because Gacy would disparage

26:11

them. So whenever

26:14

Gacy was confronted, he's like, oh, that kid,

26:16

he's a drug addict and he

26:18

ran away and he was trying to hustle me for

26:21

sex. And so he was very good

26:23

at that. So the police would be like,

26:25

oh, throw away. And that's how

26:28

a lot of serial killers get away with it. They

26:30

target people who aren't going to be missed

26:33

or who aren't going to provoke a

26:36

real active police search. In fact, the

26:38

last kid, Rob Pease, a beautiful young

26:40

man, his mother, it was her

26:42

birthday, drives him to the drugstore to apply

26:44

for a job with a man who had

26:46

a construction company. That was the last she

26:48

saw of her son. In about

26:51

an hour, he had taken the boy, taken

26:53

him to his house, raped

26:55

him and killed him and put him in the

26:57

crawlspace. So

27:00

you're talking about mostly

27:02

kids who are not going to be missed

27:04

right away. But Pease was the one

27:08

where their mother said, go

27:10

look at that guy. And that's what caused

27:12

Gacy to be caught. And I am also

27:14

doing my best to not become a conspiracy

27:17

theorist again, as well when

27:19

you also wonder whether or not there

27:21

were people in law enforcement that were

27:23

involved with some of the maybe not

27:26

in an official capacity, but in a

27:28

kind of a casual capacity at various

27:30

things like functions at John Wayne Gacy's

27:32

house, things that you probably knew we

27:35

had in that house that you did

27:37

not. Maybe you thought it was kind

27:39

of weird or icky and they didn't want to be kind

27:42

of announced that they knew that they were also a part

27:44

of that. There's so many things. I'm

27:48

sure your listeners have seen the iconic

27:50

picture of Gacy next to Rosalynn Carter.

27:53

Oh, yeah. We just thought we just

27:55

opined on the beauty of Rosalynn Carter

27:57

last week. Yeah, what a lovely lady,

27:59

Russ. soul. Had

28:01

she only known, she would have probably died a

28:03

lot sooner. Oh, that lovely

28:06

man. Side

28:08

note, you know, she met both John Wayne Gacy and

28:10

Jim Jones in the same year. Oh, yeah. She

28:13

had a good year. Wow. You

28:16

speak to many people when you're that popular. But

28:19

I mean, so the Secret Service is following

28:21

her around during this Polish day parade

28:23

or whatever it was that he was running. And

28:26

the job of the Secret Service is

28:28

to make sure that she's not surrounded

28:30

by felons who have violent felony convictions

28:33

like Gacy. So where was the

28:35

secret service in doing their due

28:37

diligence? I mean, that's another thing.

28:39

Like, how did all of that happen? You

28:43

know, again, like, I can't imagine a

28:45

police officer protecting a known murderous

28:47

pedophile, but are

28:50

they looking the other way because he had something on

28:52

them? You know, it may be that, you

28:54

know, back then being gay was

28:57

not something you came out about. You

28:59

covered it up and you could lose your whole

29:01

job and your career if you were

29:03

out it. So Gacy may have had the

29:06

dirt on people. Oh, yeah. Just said, you

29:08

know, stay away from my house. Don't ask

29:10

me any questions or I'm gonna, you know,

29:12

look at this list. And I could see

29:14

Gacy doing that. That's exactly a Gacy move.

29:17

Or they all can kind of agree

29:19

that they're, quote unquote, cleaning up the

29:21

streets of non-wanted people. That's what they

29:23

do too. Yeah, that's awesome. I hope

29:25

that's not the case. The Polish

29:27

day parade actually at night.

29:30

The funny

29:32

Polish joke. Funny Polish joke. And the funny Polish joke.

29:34

I'm Polish. I'm allowed to make these jokes. He's allowed.

29:36

Do I? Yeah. Two

29:39

thirds of this podcast is Polish. Yeah, it's true.

29:42

You know, we might ask one dumb question. One dumb

29:44

question I knew that you wanted to ask, which is

29:46

sad. And I'm sorry we're gonna do this. But what

29:48

did John Wayne Gacy smell like? Oh,

29:51

I can smell it right now. It

29:54

was a combination of like, whirl

29:57

cream. Yeah. Because he used that

29:59

in his hair. to like comb it back.

30:02

And prisoners always

30:04

have the smell of, not body odor,

30:06

but sweat because they don't shower often.

30:08

And you know that smell that you

30:10

just, someone hasn't taken a shower

30:12

in four or five days. But that,

30:14

and also he also had a little bit of

30:17

a sweet smell from some kind of cheap cologne

30:19

that he bought at the commissary because I asked

30:21

him about it. Wow. So

30:24

it was a, you know how a smell can

30:26

bring you back to that time? I can smell

30:28

it like it was yesterday. Wow. So

30:31

I guess, I mean, let's stick with like Gacy

30:33

the man for a second. Like was he kind

30:35

of a, like, was he a storyteller or was he

30:37

more of just like a quippy type guy where

30:39

you just, you wouldn't really get nothing

30:41

but snippets out of him? He

30:44

was, you know, some people are storytellers and some people

30:46

are one-liners. He would be, he's more of a

30:48

one-liner. Yeah. But he did

30:50

like to talk. He was very glib. And I

30:52

guess that is one of the qualities that

30:55

antisocial people have. You

30:57

know, they just talk. They don't want any extra time that's

30:59

silent. So

31:01

Gacy was a big, big talker, but

31:03

he didn't just talk about himself. He actually

31:06

asked a lot of questions, but I think

31:08

again, that's garnering information. And

31:10

Gacy was very smart and,

31:13

but not educated. So you would hear his

31:15

grammar was not so good, but

31:17

he was very smart. And the one

31:19

thing I talk about in my book

31:21

is that he had somewhat of a

31:23

photographic memory when it came to

31:25

things not in writing. So I

31:28

told him, he asked me where I grew up and I told

31:30

him, and it was not anywhere near where he grew up. And

31:33

he said, oh, I remember I told

31:35

him where I worked on the street, you know, intersection.

31:37

And he said, oh, there was this building

31:40

and that second building was built in like

31:42

the 1800s. And then there was

31:44

that other car dealership and whatever. And

31:46

he could name the entire block. So then

31:48

I thought, this is BS. He's just making

31:50

it up because he's full of BS. So

31:53

that weekend I was going to visit my mother

31:55

who by the way, wasn't pleased with my current

31:57

choice. Yeah. past

32:00

that intersection and would you know he was absolutely right

32:02

about every single one of those and he

32:04

hadn't been there for 16, 17 years. How

32:08

did he remember that? So every

32:10

single time he says he didn't remember

32:12

he was full of absolute shit. Yes.

32:15

Wow. He had an amazing memory, especially

32:17

visual memories. And when he was arrested and

32:19

he confessed to his first lawyer, he actually

32:22

drew a map of where all the

32:24

kids were buried, almost like completely

32:27

accurate. Yeah, Sam Amaranti, that

32:29

was his first lawyer, right? Yes. Yeah,

32:32

yeah. When we did a Gacy

32:34

episode many years back, we read his book and

32:37

he compared himself to John Adams in

32:39

the first chapter. He's a

32:42

fun guy. You are no

32:44

John Adams. Somebody

32:49

had to defend those British soldiers

32:51

and somebody had to defend John

32:53

Wayne Gacy. That man was me.

32:56

Yeah, we played the national anthem behind

32:59

him. I've been

33:01

nervous for our profession. I

33:04

guess one last wrap up question. Honestly,

33:06

all of your experience as a

33:09

lawyer, can you give our

33:11

audience some advice? Is

33:13

there going to be like, what do you do to

33:16

not end up like John Wayne Gacy

33:18

besides just not killing? I think not

33:20

killing is a really easy way to

33:22

avoid. Yeah, choosing not to kill

33:25

on a daily basis is probably a good one. It's a

33:27

good move. Yeah. And

33:29

to be serious for maybe one

33:32

minute. You know, and

33:34

I say this because I just wanted to

33:36

understand what he became. I do not believe

33:38

that little babies are evil.

33:41

I don't believe that. I believe that there is

33:43

a combination of things that happen to a person

33:45

that causes this. I mean, Gacy was sexually abused.

33:47

He was beaten by his father, but a lot

33:50

of people have those in their backgrounds and don't

33:52

do what he did. He had two very serious

33:54

head traumas, which are known to get rid of

33:56

the empathy factor in your head or

33:59

impulse control. control issues. And

34:02

he was gay. He knew he was and had

34:04

those leanings, but he was raised in a very

34:06

strict Catholic upbringing at a time where you couldn't

34:08

be gay. So if you combine all of those

34:11

things, the theory that I've heard

34:13

espoused that makes more sense to me is

34:15

that he was killing himself over

34:17

and over when he was killing these boys.

34:20

And so advice to people is raise your

34:22

children, right? And if

34:24

you see them, you know, torturing

34:26

animals or bedwetting or setting fires, get

34:28

the kid to help immediately. Yeah, that's

34:30

actually the same advice that we've been

34:33

given on our show for years. It's

34:35

nice to know we're in agreement on

34:37

that. Henry had one more question about

34:39

Kate Gacy's food choices. This is dumb.

34:41

This is dumb. One more dumb question.

34:43

This is what I got one to

34:46

this is Chicago astrology. What is

34:48

his favorite pierogi flavor? Did they, was he allowed

34:50

to have pierogies in jail? Was he because I

34:52

know he was a Polish. That man must have

34:54

consumed more Polish food than anybody. He could make

34:57

a pierogi in jail. All you need is flour

34:59

and a filling. I just don't think I would

35:01

have potatoes. He never told me

35:03

about that. But he did give

35:05

me recipes for commissary food, which was really

35:08

special. Like there was one and I'm going

35:10

to get it wrong. But you take a

35:12

bag of like Fritos, you crush them all

35:14

up and you put some

35:17

kind of goopy, you know, whatever you have mayonnaise

35:19

or whatever, and you put it in the microwave

35:21

and it's like a tamale or something. I mean,

35:23

you know, he had all of these recipes. I

35:26

put one in the, in the book, he did

35:28

like to eat. And usually

35:30

when I go there, because I'm kind of a

35:33

health, I'm kind of a mother. You're rich. Yeah,

35:35

you're very. I was like,

35:37

I'm not eating this shit. Sorry. I'm not

35:39

eating this food. But I didn't want

35:41

to be appear to be like not

35:43

grateful that some other inmate Sacrificed their

35:45

meal for me. So I pushed it around.

35:47

I said, John, you know, I'm just not

35:49

hungry. You know, do you, could you eat

35:51

this? And he would eat the whole thing.

35:54

Yeah. Well, of course. Well, yeah, he was,

35:56

I think he was head of the commissary

35:58

with the first time he went to. Isn't

36:00

right like our our the a day

36:02

I know he did some cooking the

36:04

I know would have went into sodomy.

36:06

we were for the layout of the

36:08

kids. now were you presume you? Obviously

36:10

we're defending him to try to not

36:12

get the death penalty removed but review

36:14

their when the death penalty was an

36:16

acted on him. Know.

36:18

And it's interesting the lawyers were not allowed to

36:20

be with them and I thought that was why

36:23

is that wrong? Because the lawyers You're entitled to

36:25

a lawyer at every step of the process. And

36:27

you would think that the most important part

36:29

of your represented when someone's going to be

36:31

executed that you would have a right to

36:34

a lawyer. but in Illinois that's not the

36:36

case. And interestingly the victims' families were not

36:38

entitled to be there in person. They could

36:40

be like with a live video feed. so

36:42

was a lottery so a lot of the

36:44

media was there to witness the execution. Wow

36:47

some and what do you think about

36:49

his last words? Kiss My Ass. He

36:51

didn't say that he didn't ruin I

36:53

say that really? And I will tell

36:55

you the prosecutor who was there who

36:57

became a friend of mine's I talked

36:59

to a month before he died which

37:01

does happen recently. He said it did

37:03

not happen categorically now that he didn't

37:05

say anything in last. Words and they

37:08

did not say that and said nothing.

37:10

Okay wow, that is Urban legend. Okay

37:12

good about hey we paid. it's up

37:15

the just not enough run a big

37:17

you so much for taking out of

37:19

your time to talk with us. Karen

37:21

Conti Telling Time with John Wayne Gacy.

37:24

I can't wait to read this. Yeah,

37:26

it's available in paperback ads available on

37:28

Kindle unlimited A if you are a

37:31

subscriber and the audio book is also

37:33

available. And the audio Cd your eyes

37:35

and and I did. I'm the one

37:37

reading it. That's great. Know I listen to

37:39

some of are on your website. You do a

37:42

hell of a job with any other plugs.

37:44

Oh. Have come at coming up. I'm writing novel

37:46

now Ben let her Asked us for most sense of

37:48

this but now I got the bug. I really like

37:51

writing some. Going to try to write a novel. Greg

37:53

Greg very be get sincere. Kill us out. Your brain was

37:55

you're gonna write a serial killer novel that you're gonna. but

37:57

I'm right by the debris. No, no one's gonna die

37:59

my now. Very nice. Good. Congrats.

38:03

Good. You deserve that. No one ever

38:05

dies in a book. That's a sight. You

38:07

can murder as many people as you want inside of a

38:09

book. Thank you so much. Thank you for

38:11

having me, guys. Really a pleasure to talk to. It was

38:13

a pleasure to have you. Thank you so much for coming

38:15

on. Take care. Guys,

38:17

come north way. Now

38:19

that's a smart lady.

38:23

You think that's what, John? Every time she

38:26

left his cell, it was like, now that

38:28

was a smart lady. You

38:32

know, how would you feel about sticking me

38:34

in some clown makeup? You already did it.

38:38

It's wild to me to think about

38:40

one of America's worst

38:43

monsters as a human

38:46

and hanging out. It's a

38:48

human being with flesh and blood that

38:50

you meet and talk to. And

38:52

like just hearing the emotion in her voice

38:54

talking about how like after that he was

38:57

put to death, there was

38:59

a conflicted, we talked a little bit afterwards

39:01

about how there was a conflicted moment because

39:03

it's a person. You're meeting a person. Yeah,

39:05

a person that she knew, that she spent a

39:07

lot of time with over just a

39:10

period of months and years. And then all

39:12

of a sudden that person is gone. He's

39:14

a bad guy. Yeah. Yeah, no,

39:16

he's fucking horrible. He's John Wayne Gacy. I mean,

39:18

he's one of the boogeymen of the 20th century.

39:22

And yet, like she just, I mean, she proves at

39:24

the end of the day, it's like they truly are

39:26

just fucking dudes. Unfortunate

39:29

truth. Yeah. John Wayne

39:31

Gacy is a normal human being. Well, not normal, but a

39:33

human being. He's a person. Yeah. So

39:36

one of the things that we've came across since we

39:38

did our episode is that now we know that there

39:40

have been up to, I think we say five unidentified

39:43

victims. Yeah, it was seven for many, many, many

39:45

years. There were seven out of the 33, or

39:47

not 33, because 33 was the total number of

39:49

victims. And

39:53

I think he ended up dumping five

39:56

at the end because he ran out of room in the

39:58

crawl space. Yeah, and the river. But out of

40:00

the ones that were in

40:03

the crawl space, yeah, there were seven

40:05

that were unidentified for decades. Well, this

40:07

dude, Francis Wayne Alexander, was just identified

40:09

in 2021. And

40:13

that really comes from the family pushing to

40:15

figure out where their son

40:17

went, which is extremely sad.

40:19

But it took a long time.

40:22

They said that the Sheriff's Department

40:24

had worked with this thing

40:26

called the DNA Doe Project, which

40:29

uses genetic information to locate relatives of dead people who

40:31

have not been identified. I think it's

40:33

partially even more so in the world

40:36

of DNA collection services that we

40:38

see around. This

40:40

is what's allowing some of this to happen. So

40:42

it's like, which I'm, I don't know if

40:44

I'm jazzed about. Ambivalent. I'm ambivalent. It's

40:47

when I wonder, I'm glad we're catching people. Like I'm

40:50

glad we got the Golden State Killer, of course. Yeah.

40:53

But it's like, hopefully they don't look

40:55

for somebody who's smoking too

40:57

much weed. I'm saying it's legal now.

40:59

You don't commit crimes. I don't commit

41:01

crimes. Yeah. You don't really have to

41:03

worry about that. No. And

41:06

even in my accountants will let me do tax

41:08

evasion. Yeah. And you guys won't. No, no. No

41:11

one will let me. No one will let me do

41:13

anything fun. We have to talk

41:15

you out of tax evasion every year. I'm not

41:17

allowed to make a surplus of weaponry.

41:19

I've done enough time for all of them.

41:21

Yeah. Four days. You

41:24

really have. You've made it four days in the clink.

41:26

You really have. You're the one for everyone

41:28

in the room. So what's it like being the

41:30

closest to John Wayne Gacy of the three of

41:32

them? Physically, mentally. Yeah. Yeah.

41:35

Oh man. I am, I

41:37

was impressed that he wanted to do clowning. Although

41:39

it just turned it out that it was just

41:41

a way for him to like touch people. Well,

41:44

one thing I did not get to bring up

41:46

when we were talking was the idea that, you

41:49

know, I was saying before that he had multiple

41:51

clown personas. The clown personas

41:54

really did come out during the

41:56

height of his murder spritz. Yeah.

41:58

Like. This is the clown.

42:00

He definitely, there was one kid who was a

42:03

survivor that said he was hanging out with John

42:05

Wayne Gacy and John Wayne Gacy was like, I'll

42:07

be right back. And he came back in and

42:09

he was in full pogo outfit. Fuck. Like

42:12

full pogo makeup. Yeah. Because the

42:14

thing about this, all right, so you're with your boss.

42:17

Let's say you're a young man. You're with your

42:19

boss. He says, come over my house. We'll have

42:21

a couple of beers. You go

42:23

over to that house. He puts

42:25

on some pornography, right? You're like,

42:28

cool. All right. So thank you. And

42:31

because what's nice about it, because what's nice about

42:33

it, no difference between a pornography and a stag

42:35

film, the pornography, a lot of them are still

42:37

alive. Stag film

42:39

means everybody dies. John Wayne Gacy,

42:41

he puts on this thing and then he's your boss

42:43

and you're drinking a little bit. And

42:45

first it starts with some straight porn and you're

42:47

watching guys. He's like, ah, check out, check out

42:49

this one. And then the next one's

42:51

like guy dressed up as Dalmatian or the guy dressed

42:53

up as a fireman. You're starting to go like having

42:55

a different kind of fire get put out, you know?

42:58

John Wayne Gacy is like, let me check

43:01

you back. You're big fat weird boss. And you're just

43:03

sitting there like, maybe

43:05

you don't know you're going to be, you're because

43:07

they brought this up on this interview too. Like

43:09

how many of these guys showed up expecting there

43:11

to be sex at the end of this arrangement?

43:13

A lot of them sitting. All of a sudden

43:15

you've got your boss in a full clown outfit

43:18

comes out for the back room after you've been

43:20

drinking. It's very porn playing on television with projector,

43:22

even worse. Yeah. But how long did

43:24

it take for them to put it on? That's the

43:26

costume change. I think he worked on it. He would

43:28

leave them there with some joints or something. Yeah, he'd

43:30

leave them there with joints and a beer and all

43:32

that. And I would imagine that Gacy knew how to

43:34

get in and out of that thing real fast. Some

43:36

makeup! Yeah. It was actually pretty...

43:38

It was very simple. It changed a lot.

43:41

It was very simple. And that's the other

43:43

thing about his makeup that's fascinating about it,

43:45

is that he went against like one of

43:47

the cardinal rules of clown makeup. With

43:50

clown makeup, you want everything to be very rounded.

43:53

And Gacy's makeup was very angular, which

43:55

makes people uncomfortable. Sometimes he had

43:57

the round mouth occasionally. Occasionally.

44:00

The eyes will always like angular

44:02

which gives it more of like

44:04

this haunted Harlequin feel But

44:07

yeah, you don't ever want to use Angular

44:09

makeup and people weird people out, but I think he liked

44:12

that. Yeah, of course He was trying to upset people

44:14

but I tell you what that's where I'm kind of that's

44:16

where I'm a survivor of my own Way is that

44:18

if he showed up there I'd already be sucking that dick

44:22

You get that come out right the fuck

44:24

now Yeah I

44:27

want you guys that's a lesson for everybody if

44:29

your boss if you're just having casual drinks and

44:31

your boss emerges from there saying And we dress

44:33

the clowns say you want to have first of

44:35

all You

44:38

don't want to But

44:41

my main honestly just take that bullet

44:43

take that L for yourself suck

44:45

that dick right then Get

44:48

it out of a system Go

44:50

back to watching anything else. I

44:53

didn't be like, oh you see Ricky Stonicki

44:55

Yeah, you know like that you should try

44:57

you plaid you kind of move Your

45:00

main Fowler's in it. Yeah Maybe

45:03

to see after you've got done

45:05

sucking your boss's dick in

45:07

a rumpus room Toss-off Ricky Stonicki

45:10

now you guys can slap. Are you inviting

45:12

me over to watch Ricky Stonicki? No Where

45:19

do you think his porn collection is now is

45:21

real the real porn Oh today

45:23

like a lot did the set a cop

45:26

have to like watch every second of that

45:28

and then log what happened It's like I

45:30

would imagine they just put all that shit

45:32

into an evidence locker Although they might have

45:34

watched all of it. I would imagine all

45:36

of these fucking Chicago p.m. Desplain Iowa guys

45:39

like gag

45:41

party And

45:43

they all got together it's like where'd you get this

45:45

fucking Casey's place? Yeah, and then they put it on

45:47

and they're all like Oh, no

45:51

We're supposed to be jerking after this I

45:54

feel sad and happy I'm

46:01

just really glad. Well, this is great. I'm

46:03

glad that Karen Conti fought against the death

46:05

penalty. Yeah, yeah. Everyone deserves it.

46:07

No one deserves to die by the state. We're not into

46:09

it. I still think that

46:11

they should be technically, I guess, trying

46:13

robot drugs on them, but I feel

46:15

like that's a whole other very unpopular opinion.

46:18

The state should not be killing anybody for

46:20

any reason ever. The state, the country, there's

46:22

only like seven or there's a

46:24

very small amount that are federally on death

46:27

row right now. When

46:29

I worked with Jeff Ross doing the

46:31

jail special, I learned a lot of

46:33

things about death row. I

46:36

learned that one out of 20 said that due to jail with the

46:38

special. Yes, and I'm going to get

46:40

to that. That's what kind of changed my mind

46:42

about death row, to be honest with you, and

46:44

the death penalty in general. I

46:46

know that one out of 20 people

46:48

is presumed innocent on death row, which

46:50

is a very horrifying statistic. That's

46:53

way too much. One out of 100 is too much,

46:55

but one out of 20 is a huge

46:57

number. There

47:00

was a fellow that we interviewed when we

47:02

were doing the jail special. He

47:06

has been recently convicted and sentenced to

47:08

death for killing

47:10

a professor over at

47:12

Texas A&M. He

47:15

killed a very popular tenured professor.

47:18

Then he tried to kill his wife who was in a

47:20

wheelchair. He slit her throat. He's a bad guy. The

47:24

world doesn't need this guy, but

47:27

when we interviewed him, which did not air in

47:29

the special because we were like, that's too fucking

47:31

weird, we didn't know who he was. We

47:33

were in the violent section of the jail. He

47:36

basically said, he was Asian, and not

47:38

Jeff's best joke, but he said, what

47:41

are you in here hacking your computer?

47:43

He said, hacking, see, you

47:46

could say hacking for sure. You could say

47:48

I hacked someone's screen off, is what he

47:50

said. Then

47:52

later on, we find out that what the

47:54

crime that he was a convection of murder.

47:56

But he wasn't supposed to be talking to

47:58

anyone at the time. And so it was

48:00

it so the state of

48:02

Texas subpoenaed the footage from Comedy Central

48:05

and then later used that interview

48:08

as An excuse that he

48:10

felt no remorse for the crime that he did

48:12

and then sentenced him to death

48:16

And that was the day that

48:18

I changed my mind on the death penalty

48:21

as yeah Could you send a guy to the

48:23

chair? I oddly I felt I definitely felt some

48:25

responsibility and I was like I someone who I

48:27

thought that should be dead So when I thought

48:29

that shouldn't be around anymore, and then once it

48:32

came that close to home I'm sorry that it

48:34

had to take that but I was like this

48:36

is awful. No one should this should not happen

48:39

This is wrong on so many levels.

48:41

It doesn't it's not he's a horrible

48:44

human being lock him away forever It's

48:46

worse. It's so much worse, you know,

48:48

and so it's just like a now he's gonna

48:50

in Texas We know that they're like trying out

48:52

new shit. There's like to try to try to

48:54

figure out new ways to kill people Well, it's

48:56

like I said in the episode is like there

48:59

are no doctors That are involved

49:01

in that like there there's there's nobody

49:03

that Actually has

49:05

gone to school for any like these are

49:07

just guys that are trying shit just because

49:09

they may have read a couple of books

49:12

Yeah, and they're a fun job. Can I

49:14

go do it? Definitely.

49:16

I'm sure it's not that hard to get in

49:18

there. I know that John Oliver had a great expose on

49:20

the death penalty recently I don't know if you guys got

49:23

a chance to see it, but they're buying these chemicals from

49:25

I Mean chemical

49:27

plants who don't make medicine obviously it's not medicine

49:29

because it kills people Yeah, but it's like they're

49:31

buying it for people had nothing to do with

49:34

the human body. There is so it's it's very

49:36

terrifying Horrible

49:38

thing and to know that one

49:40

out of 20 of them are actually innocent Shakes

49:43

me to my core. Also, we never know and I

49:45

think you brought it up to we never know what

49:47

you're gonna get out Of these guys. Well, they're alive.

49:50

You don't know like keeping them alive is a resource

49:52

to learn in the future I think it

49:54

whatever it is. We got to do to get that information

49:57

Which I've learned is you just put a guy in a room you'd

49:59

be surprised eventually to start talking. Yeah, I mean,

50:01

there's so much that we could have learned from Ted

50:03

Bundy. There was so much that we could have learned.

50:05

I mean, a lot of it would have been horseshit,

50:08

but it is

50:10

sifting through the horseshit of

50:12

these types of personalities that

50:14

we get to see how

50:16

they think. And the more

50:18

we know how they think or the

50:20

where they come from, the more there

50:22

might be some form of science at

50:24

some point that detects this before it

50:27

blows up into murder. There might be

50:29

one day some way to tell if

50:31

a kid's going to grow up to

50:33

be a serial killer or if you

50:35

get a pop. No kid grows up wanting to be a

50:37

junkie. No. No. Remember

50:40

that? Remember that? But I actually do know

50:42

some kids that did like the idea of

50:44

drugs very young. Yeah. But

50:46

no one really wants to be

50:48

like a serial murderer as a

50:50

child. Not as a child.

50:52

I don't know. I've

50:55

never met one lucky for me. I

50:57

have not met one. No. I

51:00

have not either. It's rare. I

51:04

was just fascinated. But I knew

51:06

I wanted to be in a more pure art form. Entertainment.

51:10

Thank you so much for listening

51:12

everybody. You can watch this episode

51:14

and every episode. If you are

51:17

a Patreon subscriber, go to patreon.com/last

51:19

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51:21

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51:24

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51:28

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51:30

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51:32

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51:34

Go to the YouTube channel and you

51:36

can see right there. And you can

51:38

go. We want to see us a

51:40

tour. We want to see us physically

51:42

in front of you. Go to lastpodcastontheleft.com

51:44

and get tickets for our new tour

51:46

JK Ultra. Yeah. Denver's almost

51:48

sold out. We're looking at you Seattle. You're next.

51:51

And DC, we're rolling baby. Yup. And

51:54

we don't know what to do with those tossed

51:56

salad and scrambled eggs. Yeah!

52:00

They're calling again. Hahaha! This

52:03

gravel day is all over my face! Hahaha!

52:06

Oh man, and when we come back this Wednesday

52:09

on Twitch, we're gonna have the brighter side, so

52:11

I'm so excited to do that again. So, we'll

52:13

come check out Amber, Nelson and I, and we

52:15

will be positive. It is the exact opposite of

52:18

the show. Yes. Yeah. I

52:20

can be positive. You are positive! I'm

52:23

positively amusing again! Mmmmmm!

52:28

Hail Satan, good night. Hail King

52:30

Goodbye. Hail Karen Contee. Yes, please.

52:33

Oh, yes. Sure. Good luck.