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bluehost.com. Welcome

1:20

to the Restless Politics Leading with

1:22

me, Rory Stewart. And me, Alistair

1:24

Campbell, with the shadow secretary of

1:27

state for education, Bridget

1:29

Philipson. Now, Rory has this idea

1:31

that in order to become

1:34

a successful politician these days, you have to

1:36

have an amazing backstory. And you've got quite

1:38

a good backstory. We'll get on to that.

1:40

Single mum, dad left her when she was

1:43

pregnant with you. Very smart at school. Went

1:46

to Oxford, became the boss of

1:48

the Labour Club and very, very

1:50

quickly into politics. MP at 26

1:52

and pretty much 14 years later,

1:56

on the brink of becoming

1:59

education secretary. It would be quite a

2:01

big deal. So welcome. Good to be with

2:03

you. Thanks for having me. Shall we start with the backstory? Sure.

2:06

Just give us a bit of your childhood. So as

2:08

you say, my mum brought me up on her own.

2:11

My dad disappeared off the scene when she was pregnant. So

2:13

I wasn't meant to be in

2:15

the world. So it was a bit of a surprise all

2:18

around. I grew up in a

2:20

council street in Washington in the northeast.

2:22

It wasn't a great time in the northeast in

2:24

the 80s and 90s. The street was

2:26

very rundown. Youth and employment was high,

2:28

crime was high, but I was from

2:30

a really loving family. My mum is

2:32

amazing. My grandparents were not far away

2:34

and were a big help. And education

2:36

was really, really important to me. And

2:38

I was very fortunate to come from

2:40

a family where that was supported

2:42

and encouraged, especially my granddad, who was forever

2:45

giving me books and doing times tables

2:47

with me and really valued education

2:50

and went to great schools. And that set

2:52

me up in the future. We end up

2:54

on this podcast quite often talking to our

2:56

guests about relationships with their dad and

2:58

you never met your dad. No. And

3:00

I just wondered what impact you think that

3:03

had on your life. I've never missed what

3:05

I've not had. So I always felt really

3:08

lucky to have a wonderful and supportive family.

3:10

And the close relationship I did have was with

3:12

my granddad, who was a really

3:15

big influence on my life. He, his

3:17

family came over from Ireland. He

3:19

then moved to Scotland. He served in

3:21

the Second World War. So much of

3:23

my upbringing was with him

3:25

reading, hearing about his experiences. He

3:27

then went on to train as a nurse just

3:30

when the NHS was being set up. So he

3:32

was a really important influence on

3:35

my life. Never the feeling of somebody bringing you

3:37

into the world, but then just buggering off. As

3:40

an adult, I can't conceptually get my head around how you

3:42

could do that. I just can't

3:44

understand how you would do that, but I don't feel

3:46

any sense of bitterness. I feel like I've had a

3:48

wonderful family and lots of support. And it would have

3:50

been easier for my mum if there'd been two incomes.

3:52

We had a pretty tough because she was on

3:55

her own, couldn't work when I was younger. That

3:57

made life tough for us. The

3:59

one thing I do... was when in the 90s when

4:01

the Conservatives were bringing in the child support agency

4:04

saying to my mum, how is it

4:06

that he contributes nothing? I mean, I'm not exaggerating when I

4:08

say he gave us not a single penny and

4:10

thinking there was an unfairness there. But

4:13

you could spend your life regretting the things

4:15

that you didn't have. And I prefer

4:17

to focus on the good fortune I've

4:19

had in lots of ways. I just want

4:22

that for other people too. You came into Parliament

4:24

with me in 2010. What

4:26

was your first impression of it? What was your

4:28

sense of it? I mean, I found it weird.

4:30

How did you find it? It was a really

4:32

funny time because obviously we in the Labour Party

4:35

had just left government, but there wasn't a government

4:37

in place. The coalition negotiations were still happening. So

4:39

it was really special and it was really special

4:41

to have been elected to represent the community that

4:43

I'm from. So I felt a

4:46

real sense of responsibility. But it wasn't a

4:48

great time for the Labour Party. I didn't think we'd

4:50

be out for 14 years. But here we are. What

4:53

did you think at the time? You thought you might be

4:55

back in five? I mean, that was always going to be

4:57

a stretch. But we've taken nothing

4:59

for granted. We've still got an election to fight

5:01

and win. But we've made it very, very hard

5:03

on ourselves. And the consequence of that has

5:05

been that many of the people that I represent have

5:07

had a really hard time of it in recent years. And

5:10

it breaks my heart to see so many

5:12

people depending on food banks, the struggles that

5:15

people are facing day to day, and how

5:18

life is a daily grind for too many people.

5:20

Sounds a little bit of so. You've gone on

5:22

the election campaign already. I'd love you to talk

5:24

about Parliament. How much power do you feel you

5:26

have structurally? Not Labour Conservative. It's getting quite political.

5:28

But the structural part, do you think it's well

5:30

designed? Do you think the idea of backbenchers work?

5:33

Are there things you'd improve if you had a

5:35

magic wand? Going back to 2010, what is it

5:37

that struck you about that institution, that building, the

5:39

way it works? I mean, the building itself is

5:41

just incredible. To be able to work in such

5:45

a historic place is just special every day. Every

5:47

day you walk in, it's just an

5:49

amazing place to be. I think

5:51

there is a lot you can do as a

5:53

backbencher. I mean, admittedly, that's a bit easier from

5:55

government rather than from opposition. But

5:58

the first time I spoke in Parliament, I was Parliament was

6:00

in David Cameron's first Prime Minister's questions

6:03

as Prime Minister. So that was

6:05

quite a big moment to speak for the

6:07

first time in PMQs, even ahead of making

6:09

a maiden speech. But Parliament has changed

6:11

in that time. It's changed from the place that

6:14

I arrived in in 2010. It's become better

6:16

for those of us who have children, have

6:18

younger children, both of my children have been

6:21

born while I've been an MP. You know,

6:23

the addition of on-site nursery, the culture has

6:25

changed. I think it's a more diverse

6:27

place overall. It felt quite traditional

6:29

and a bit old-fashioned. I mean, I personally have

6:31

always quite liked a lot of the tradition

6:33

and the ways of doing things, but

6:36

it felt like, you know, in terms of the people

6:38

that worked there, for example, it didn't feel really representative

6:40

of the city in which it was in and that

6:42

is starting to improve. And until now, as you

6:45

say, you've only known opposition 14 years

6:47

of it. So first of all, what was your

6:49

political experience during the year that we did have

6:51

a Labour government? And just talk

6:53

us through the various stages of Labour, because

6:55

you didn't serve under Corbyn, did you? No.

6:57

And you wouldn't have done? I've had no

6:59

interest in serving under Corbyn, no. I mean,

7:01

that was, other people concluded

7:04

differently. But for me, I

7:06

was on the Public Accounts Committee. I really enjoyed

7:08

that. That was a great place to be. I

7:10

learned a lot and I was about venture. So

7:12

your sense of the new Labour government and then

7:15

your sense of Labour's journey from where

7:17

it was in 2010, losing that first election to the

7:19

place where you are now? Well, I've just gone back

7:21

a step. I first joined the Labour Party when I

7:23

was 15. That was in

7:25

1998. So quite an exciting time

7:28

to get involved. Yeah, absolutely.

7:30

So you were 15? Yeah, I was

7:32

13 in 1997 when I was at secondary school when Labour, well, actually,

7:36

my daughter will be 13 later this year.

7:38

So hopefully, there'll be a repeat

7:40

there that we can, I can give her the Labour government

7:43

that I also, you know, I was able to

7:45

experience from the age of 13 onwards. We've had our ups

7:47

and downs from the Labour Party in recent years. It's not

7:49

been, it's not been wonderful. But I

7:51

always believed, and the reason I got involved in

7:53

the Labour Party and in politics is that politics

7:56

should be a force for good in people's lives.

7:58

And I'm glad that the Labour Party is

8:00

now in a better position to actually advance

8:02

the interests of working people across our

8:04

country in a way that it just frankly wasn't under Jeremy

8:06

Corbyn. So what was that period like as an MP? It

8:10

was pretty miserable, both in terms of

8:12

where the Labour Party was, but it was also that

8:14

period where there was everything going on with Brexit. It

8:16

was a very volatile period for

8:18

the country. Like a lot of

8:20

female MPs received a lot of

8:22

abuse, unpleasantness, threats. I don't like to dwell on

8:25

that too much because I think there is a risk that

8:27

you make politics sounds more unattractive that women

8:29

in particular don't want to come forward. And

8:31

being an MP is an

8:33

amazing job to do. Would you say that

8:36

as a woman in modern politics, you do

8:38

have to have a pretty thick skin before

8:40

you even think about doing it? You do.

8:42

And politicians should be subject to serious scrutiny.

8:44

We should be asked tough questions. We should

8:46

be prepared to defend our opinions. But

8:48

women MPs get an awful lot of nonsense, whether it's

8:50

how you look, how you speak,

8:52

whether you smile enough, you name it.

8:55

Women politicians get a degree of that. Not just

8:57

women. Some of my Black and minority

8:59

ethnic colleagues really get a hard time with it too. I

9:01

know that. But I think

9:04

it's incumbent on us to stick

9:06

it out and change the culture.

9:08

Was there ever a point during that

9:10

Jeremy Corbyn's period where you thought that

9:12

the Labour Party was facing a kind

9:14

of existential threat? Yes, but I

9:17

was always convinced that we'd turn it around and I

9:19

wanted to be a part of turning it around. Yeah,

9:21

I'm interested in. Obviously, I had a much more negative

9:23

experience of parliament than you. You

9:25

have a very positive vision of it. I mean,

9:27

the sort of things I guess that worry me

9:29

and I think worry a lot of people are

9:31

the first part of the post electoral system, the

9:33

party whip, the way people don't really vote independently,

9:36

how rapidly ministers are reshuffled. I mean, a lot

9:38

of it seems to be very, very broken. And

9:41

honestly, I mean, leaving someone like you on the

9:43

backbenches for 14 years, I

9:45

mean, you're putting a very positive on a bit from my

9:47

point of view, it's not using you compared

9:50

to what a normal job would do with someone like

9:52

you over 14 years, you'd be managing things, you'd be

9:54

running things, sort of which parliament

9:56

is set up in a very odd way. I mean, you

9:59

don't feel any effect. So I was

10:01

in the Whips office for three

10:03

years under Ed Miliband's leadership and I

10:05

absolutely loved being in the Whips office. And part

10:07

of that was because you were part of a team.

10:09

I think in Parliament you can sometimes just feel it

10:11

can be quite a lonely place and that you're getting on

10:13

and doing your own thing. But being in the Whips office

10:15

as part of a team, I really loved. And

10:18

then after 2015 onwards, I

10:20

was on the backbenchers. It's not without its frustrations,

10:23

of course not, but so few people get the

10:25

chance to be a member of Parliament. And I

10:27

just felt it was really special. And

10:30

I also feel having had

10:32

more time to think about what I believe,

10:35

why I believe it and how you can make change happen,

10:37

I think has put

10:39

me in a better position to hopefully become a

10:42

part of a Labour government. I feel far more

10:44

confident in my own views and far more clear

10:46

about how you make change happen and how we

10:48

would do that if we formed the next government,

10:50

which I don't think I would

10:52

have had necessarily in quite the same

10:54

way if I'd had a shorter period of

10:57

time in Parliament or had just jumped

10:59

straight into high office. How tribal

11:01

are you? How much do you see Tories as

11:03

the enemy? How would

11:05

you pitch yourself to me as a centrist

11:07

Tory voter? I'm Labour to my core. I'm

11:10

from a Labour family. The Labour Party has been a

11:12

part of my life, my whole life. My

11:15

mum was a Labour Party member. Because she was

11:17

a single parent, she took me along to meetings

11:19

when I was a kid. There was no compulsion

11:21

to get involved, but I did because I felt

11:23

it was part of how you served your community,

11:25

how you made change happen both locally and nationally.

11:28

I was really interested in international politics as

11:30

well, and that was important to me. But

11:32

for all of that, I think if you're

11:34

to be effective as a politician, you have

11:36

to seek to understand other people's points of

11:38

view. And I don't doubt

11:41

that Conservative MPs come into politics for

11:43

the right reasons. I just happen to have a

11:45

fundamental disagreement about how we use government as a

11:47

force for good. For me,

11:49

I think the difference is it's not about individuals.

11:52

My view of politics is that it's

11:55

about collective endeavour and how we use

11:57

the state to give people more freedom and

11:59

control. over their lives and that for

12:01

me is what Labour is about, giving people

12:03

opportunity and freedom. So if you were pitching

12:05

to me as somebody who's left the Conservative

12:08

Party, I'm now a classic independent voting fighter,

12:10

putting yourself in my shoes, how

12:12

would you provide an account to the Labour Party

12:14

that would make someone like me feel welcome rather

12:16

than feel judged and excluded? That we're a party

12:18

that's focused on the national interest. As

12:21

Keira said lots and lots of times

12:23

recently, it's about putting the country first.

12:26

And I think putting a bit of hope

12:28

and optimism into our country's future.

12:30

I'm really proud of what we have achieved

12:32

as a country, but I believe our

12:34

best days still lie ahead of us. And

12:36

the Labour Party is focused

12:38

on the changes that we need to make

12:40

in order to do that, whether it's around education,

12:43

which I think she will come on to,

12:45

but also just giving people more choice and

12:47

control in their lives. I think the right

12:49

often make a really effective argument about freedom.

12:51

For me, I think it's a left wing

12:54

argument that if we want people to

12:56

have real and meaningful

12:58

choice about how they live their lives, then the

13:00

rules for government is to open that up. And

13:03

my politics are about how you make sure

13:05

that people's background doesn't determine everything that they can go on

13:07

to achieve. And right now and our country we're still a

13:09

long way away from that. And that's what brought me into

13:12

politics. So would you say class is still a big thing

13:14

in Britain? Class is a massive

13:16

thing in Britain. Absolutely. And how do you define

13:18

it? And how do you find the effect that

13:20

it has on us? It holds people back. It

13:22

holds our country back. We don't benefit from the

13:24

full range of talent of everyone in our

13:26

country. We're economically poorer. But I think

13:28

as individuals and collectively as a society, we are poorer.

13:30

You know, so many of the people that I grew

13:33

up with work really

13:35

hard, are amazing, brilliant people, but

13:37

they had to overcome often even more than

13:39

I've had to in order to get on

13:41

in life. And for me, that's why education

13:43

is so important because for lots of the people that

13:46

I grew up with, it didn't work out first time

13:48

around. But it was a chance later on when they

13:50

were a bit older to go to university

13:52

as a mature student or to go into training

13:55

or to get involved in voluntary activity

13:57

within their community that made such a

13:59

big difference. But I think with the

14:01

shadow cabinet that we have at the moment, I'd

14:03

say it's probably one of

14:05

the most class-conscious shadow cabinets

14:07

that we've had for some time. And we partly

14:10

reflect that. It's developed, aren't you? Well, it's the

14:12

change that we've seen across society that so many of us,

14:15

you know, the vast majority of us went

14:17

to comprehensive schools. And that reflects the wider

14:19

shift that we've seen in society.

14:21

And I think it's a good thing that

14:23

we have more people from a range of

14:26

different backgrounds in politics now. There are still

14:28

challenges in a whole host of professions. And

14:30

I think, increasingly, arts and media is one

14:32

area where we have far too

14:35

few people from a range of backgrounds and it's

14:37

moving in the wrong direction for different

14:39

reasons. What do you mean when you say

14:41

this is the most class-conscious cabinet

14:43

that Labour's had? We're proud of where

14:45

we're from. I'm very proud of my background and

14:48

where I'm from. I'm not going to pretend. I'm

14:50

going to be true to myself and true

14:52

to the people that I represent. And I won't pretend

14:55

to be someone I'm not. And you think-

14:57

In order to get on. So when you say the

14:59

most class-conscious Labour government sort of implies that

15:02

previous Labour governments haven't been like that? Well,

15:04

they were generally more affluent from

15:06

more privileged backgrounds. That's not to say that if

15:08

you are from a better off background, you shouldn't

15:10

have a role to play. Of course you should.

15:13

But the difference now is

15:15

that the majority of us in the Shadow

15:17

Cabinet had the benefits of a state education, happened

15:19

to think it was brilliant, and

15:21

have gone on and been able to achieve.

15:24

Now, for me, however, I think the slight

15:26

danger around the kind of narrative which I'm

15:29

setting out is that I

15:31

believe in a concept of social justice rather than

15:33

social mobility. So for me, it's not just lifting

15:35

a lucky few out and saying we've solved the world's

15:37

problems because a couple of people like me managed to

15:39

go to Oxford and have gone into politics. It's

15:42

about how right across society we make sure that everyone

15:45

has opportunity, dignity, and a good

15:47

life where they can raise a

15:49

family, they don't have to spend

15:52

all their time struggling, and they can enjoy the good

15:54

things in life. Where parents can take

15:56

their kids on holiday, go to the park, buy an

15:58

ice cream. things I think

16:00

people should be able to enjoy. And,

16:03

Richard, listen to you. I'm surprised you

16:05

weren't more comfortable with Jeremy Corbyn. I

16:07

mean, a lot of the things you're

16:09

saying he would say. And he might

16:11

say that maybe from 1997-2010, New Labour

16:14

didn't achieve the radical things he would have liked to

16:16

achieve on class and social justice. And this is an

16:18

alien tribe to me, but why is it that you

16:20

sound to me like somebody who would agree 100% with

16:23

Jeremy Corbyn, but you don't? What am I missing? No

16:25

one got working class aspiration more than that

16:28

new Labour government. No one. And

16:30

few got it less than Jeremy. Yeah. It

16:32

was people want to put an extension on their house. They

16:35

want to go on holiday. They want to live in a

16:37

safe community. They don't want to be blighted by any social

16:39

behaviour. Those are the concerns

16:41

that when Labour was in government, we responded to.

16:43

We wanted people to be better off. We wanted them

16:45

to have more, to have choice about how they

16:47

lived their lives. And, you know, right across the

16:49

country, that's what people tell me they want for their

16:52

kids. They just want their kids to have a

16:54

better life than they've enjoyed. Whereas

16:56

there's another tradition on the left, which, although

16:58

it sounds similar, because it also talks about

17:00

social justice and poverty and class,

17:02

has a slightly different take on that. I

17:05

think sometimes it can just end up a bit disconnected from

17:08

people's lives. And if you're not careful,

17:10

I think you can sound like you're

17:12

lecturing people on their lives or

17:14

making judgment about how they live their lives. And

17:17

you have to have a degree

17:19

of empathy and understanding, but

17:21

also acknowledge what it is that people want.

17:23

And for people who've never really had to

17:25

struggle, sometimes it can be

17:27

hard to put yourself in those shoes. And

17:30

yeah, I think on the left, we just have to be careful

17:33

that we don't judge people and that we

17:35

just provide the conditions whereby people commit the

17:37

choices that work for them. It's

17:39

interesting to me that you actually portray like

17:41

a counterpoint, you can now be social justice

17:43

or social mobility. And I think there's something

17:46

in that. I think that Tony would definitely

17:48

have projected himself as social mobility, but the

17:50

goal was always about delivering social justice. But

17:52

you are coming at it absolutely from that

17:54

sense of saying there are massive social problems

17:57

in this country and the state has a bit of

17:59

a difference. role in fixing it and you

18:01

make no bones about that. Is that kind of

18:03

where your politics lies? Absolutely and I get that

18:06

social mobility is a term that has currency and

18:08

people understand or think they understand what

18:10

you mean when you say that but for me

18:12

it's a wider conception of the role

18:14

for government in providing freedom and

18:16

enabling choice and opportunity. Given

18:19

that we're in a very unequal

18:21

society where class is very important,

18:24

surely you must feel that one

18:27

way of making Britain more equal would be

18:29

to tax very rich

18:31

people more and redistribute more of that

18:33

money to the poor, make our tax

18:35

burden feel more like Sweden. I believe

18:37

in a progressive taxation system and we

18:39

do need to make changes, many of

18:41

which we've set out in the context

18:43

of the election campaign but it has

18:46

to be fair across the board, absolutely,

18:49

and there are problems with the tax

18:51

system at the moment. But at the same

18:53

time we have to tread with care that

18:55

we make sure that Britain remains a competitive

18:57

place for businesses to operate and we make

18:59

sure that it's where people can strive and

19:01

can achieve and can make a contribution. But

19:04

I guess presumably, I mean maybe being unfair but if

19:06

I was talking to your younger self you presumably would

19:08

have said to me wait a sec, Sweden is the

19:10

place which thrives and does well and has a much

19:12

higher income tax and has much

19:15

more redistribution. I mean your fiscal policies are

19:17

not very social democratic. I mean they look

19:19

like on income tax and corporation tax and

19:21

national insurance and VAT you're kind of tracking

19:24

the Tories. Presumably you would like if you

19:26

want to transform the country to make us

19:28

more social democratic there. I mean I'm not

19:30

sure a younger me would have necessarily held

19:33

that view. I very much

19:35

came of age in an era where

19:38

I saw the practical difference that government could make

19:40

in people's lives and that's always shaped my politics.

19:42

We do need to get to a fairer society,

19:44

that was what I feel we achieved last time

19:47

around and tackling child poverty in particular is a

19:49

driving force for me. It's where

19:51

we made major progress last time around

19:53

and where whatever changes we might

19:55

want to make in education, the

19:58

single biggest way that we can provide

20:00

more opportunities for children and actually could make the

20:02

job of teachers and schools easier would be to

20:04

bear down on the numbers of children living in

20:06

poverty at the moment. So it

20:08

seems to me that there are a lot of

20:10

very, very wealthy people in Britain who

20:13

could afford to pay a lot more money. And you're

20:15

going to need a lot of money if you're going

20:17

to do all the things that you dream of doing

20:20

for child poverty through to proving the health service. And

20:22

I guess if you were like a Swede looking at

20:24

this, you'd say the answer is obvious. You need to

20:26

be putting income tax up for rich people or you

20:28

need to be hitting them harder on other forms of

20:31

taxes. Why have you ruled that out? Why is that

20:33

not something you want to do, given all you believe?

20:35

Well, as you know, we've set out the changes we've

20:37

made around non-doms, for example, making sure that the global

20:39

super rich, you make a home here, pay their taxes

20:41

here. But the reason the last Labour

20:44

government was able to invest in our schools and

20:46

hospitals and was able to make that difference was

20:48

through growing the economy. And if

20:50

we had anywhere near the levels of growth

20:52

now that we have then, then the choices

20:55

will be different. One tax change that you

20:57

are making, and one of the things really

20:59

I regularly disagree agreeably about is private

21:01

education. So you're going to put VAT on school

21:04

fees, which we talked about a lot and

21:06

never did. I just wonder what your overall

21:08

attitude is to private education, whether

21:11

like me, you actually feel that it is a big part

21:13

of the class system that you

21:15

were talking about earlier, that has held the country

21:17

back and whether this is the limit of

21:20

any change that you're going to make to the private

21:22

education regime. So I think parents can

21:24

make decisions about where they educate their children,

21:27

and that can include private schools. Personally,

21:29

that's not a choice that I would ever

21:31

make. I believe in state education, my children

21:33

go to state schools, my focus as shadow

21:35

education secretary and going into government if we

21:37

win the next election would be on driving

21:40

up standards in state schools. But we've got to

21:42

raise some money to do that. And that's why I think

21:44

it is the right decision to end the tax benefits

21:46

that private schools enjoy. But parents

21:49

can choose to send their children to private school

21:51

as far as I'm concerned. I know parents want

21:53

the best for their kids. And if that's what

21:55

they choose, then that's absolutely a legitimate thing to

21:57

do. So you're slightly different from that,

21:59

because One of the reasons amongst many

22:01

that Alistair loves the VAT on private schools is

22:03

he really would like all private schools to disappear.

22:05

I mean, he wants to, he would

22:08

prefer to be in a world in which there were no private schools. Are

22:10

you like him on that? I wouldn't start if we

22:12

were to start from scratch. I don't think

22:14

I'd start with either selection within schools or

22:17

private schools overall. But I think it's hard

22:19

to get away from the need for parents

22:21

to have choice and where they educate their

22:23

children. And I believe that parents should have

22:25

choice in that. I just happen to

22:27

believe that the taxpayer shouldn't be subsidising that

22:29

choice. And I suppose the strongest argument I

22:31

guess against what you're doing is the children

22:33

themselves. We can talk about the numbers, how

22:35

much you raise and how many children, but

22:37

some children at least will find their education

22:39

disrupted. Their parents will be unable to afford

22:42

the money they're currently spending and they will

22:44

have to take them out of a school

22:46

that maybe they love and they're doing well

22:48

in and put them into a new school.

22:50

Are you thinking about how to support those

22:52

children as they make that transition? So I've

22:55

looked very carefully at the report that the

22:57

Institute for Fiscal Studies has done on this policy. And

23:00

they conclude that our policy would raise £1.3 to £1.5 billion

23:02

net and that takes effect

23:05

of any change as you described, although they

23:07

anticipate little effect from the

23:10

policy. Mainly because private schools have

23:12

backed up their fees way beyond inflation year after

23:14

year and there hasn't been a

23:16

shift in the numbers. And increasingly they

23:18

price themselves out of the middle class market. When I was

23:20

growing up, even in the North East, I knew people that

23:22

went to private school. I think in

23:25

similar circumstances now, I would struggle to find

23:28

similar numbers of people partly because the fees

23:30

are so much higher than they were. Not

23:32

to screen with anything you're saying, but for

23:34

those children who will have their education disrupted,

23:36

and what you're saying is you don't think

23:38

it will be very many, but there will

23:40

be some where parents will be unable to

23:42

afford, what support will you be providing for

23:44

those children as they leave one school and

23:46

move into another? Access to a good state

23:48

school. Two points. Firstly, schools can seek to

23:51

absorb that cost. So the schools have

23:53

choices in terms of how they price their

23:55

fees, what level of provision they offer. There

23:58

has been frankly an arms race where it comes to capital. expenditure

24:00

around many private schools. State schools

24:02

in recent years have had some really tough choices

24:05

to make and I think private schools might like

24:07

to consider how they cut their cloth. Secondly, we're

24:09

actually in a situation right now where we are

24:11

seeing big falling rules right across the country because

24:13

of the falling birth rate. I don't accept that

24:16

there'll be large numbers of children leaving but we're

24:18

already in a position where schools are merging and

24:20

closing because of the falling numbers of children coming

24:22

through the school system. So there is ample space.

24:26

I just don't accept the prize. I guess

24:28

it's not a question of space. It's a question

24:30

of the children. It's a question of their lives, their

24:32

education. It's disruptive to have to be school in the

24:34

middle of your life. So there's a

24:36

lot of the conversation seems to be

24:38

around finances and numbers but not very

24:40

much around the actual children. I just

24:43

gently observe that 93% of children in

24:45

our country go to state schools and

24:47

I think this is the right thing to

24:49

do. It sucks up an enormous

24:51

amount of interest for what is a

24:53

relatively small part of our school system

24:56

and I think it's absolutely right that I'm

24:58

asked questions about the impact of policy. Have

25:00

we considered all the implications which absolutely we have done

25:02

but I want to make sure the 93% of children in

25:04

our state schools have the teachers they

25:06

need, the support that they need and the mental

25:09

health provision that they need and we would use

25:11

that money to deliver more teachers, more mental health

25:13

support, better training and development for teachers within the

25:15

state system. I think that should be

25:17

the priority of an Education Secretary to focus

25:20

on the majority of children within our state

25:22

sector. On education more generally, so famous

25:25

Tony Blair sound by asking my three

25:27

priorities for government and I tell you

25:29

education, education, education. We interviewed David Blunkett

25:31

on leading recently and he said that

25:33

he felt education had gone down the

25:35

political agenda since those days

25:37

and also I think getting an assessment of

25:39

your priorities it seems to me that childcare

25:42

is as important to you as anything

25:44

within the policy. I'm not talking about you as an individual

25:46

here as a policymaker. So

25:49

is childcare fundamentally an

25:51

education policy? Is it a social policy? Is

25:53

it an economic policy? And would you agree

25:55

that education has come down the political agenda

25:57

and we need to get it back up?

26:00

It's my job to get it back up the agenda.

26:02

I think that's easier to do from government than

26:04

from opposition. And when I've looked at the salience

26:06

of education as an issue in the run-ins in

26:09

1997 and beyond, it was actually when Labour were

26:11

in government, where we were doing a lot around

26:13

schools that the salience of education as an issue

26:15

particularly started to increase. And there were kind of

26:17

key moments where policy was announced, where change has

26:19

happened, that really cut through with the public. And

26:22

David Blanca is just an amazing man.

26:24

It's been a real pleasure to spend

26:26

so much time speaking to him about

26:29

his experiences. I think there's an awful lot that

26:31

I've taken from his approach from opposition

26:33

and then into government and an awful lot

26:35

that I've learned from him. But I do regard childcare

26:37

in earlier education as a central part

26:40

of our education system. And

26:42

it was clear to me from taking

26:44

on this role back in November 2021 that it

26:46

was the big unaddressed area of education

26:48

policy in our country. If we can get it

26:50

right when children are younger, if we can set

26:52

them up to succeed, then so

26:55

much more is unlocked. And what I hear

26:57

right across the country from schools is that

26:59

by the time children arrive in reception, they've

27:01

already started to slip behind. We see a

27:03

widening attainment gap. The

27:05

pandemic has accelerated that, admittedly. And

27:07

the children that are starting to arrive at

27:09

school now are of that COVID generation who

27:12

experience the most serious impacts of isolation from

27:14

family and friends. But for me,

27:16

if we could really transform early years

27:18

education and childcare, that would make the

27:20

single biggest difference to children's life chances

27:22

and the single biggest difference across our

27:24

school system. And it wouldn't be simpler

27:27

just to reinstate Shure Start. Is that

27:29

something you could consider? We do need

27:31

to find a way of bringing together

27:33

family services in terms of the wider

27:35

support that families need, absolutely. But

27:37

you will recall that it was a policy

27:39

that we announced from government in 1998, not a

27:42

policy that we've committed to ahead of an

27:44

election. But I am really struck

27:46

by the emerging evidence, including reports

27:48

that have just been published this year from the

27:50

IFS, for example, that show not only

27:52

did Shure Start cut hospital admissions and

27:55

save money for the NHS, it

27:57

also led to an improvement in terms of outcomes

27:59

and grades. young people who were able to

28:01

benefit from a Shure Start centre. One

28:03

caveat I would say is that it

28:05

does demonstrate however that the earlier part

28:08

of the Shure Start rollout was more

28:10

effective than later stages. So while Shure

28:12

Start overall was an amazing and effective

28:14

policy I think just to simply seek

28:16

to recreate something that ended in 2010 in 2024 might

28:19

not be the right approach either.

28:22

What's this earlier part? Which were the bits which

28:25

worked better? So it changed in nature and scope

28:27

over time it had different purposes at different points.

28:29

The initial phase and this is the phase I remember

28:31

well because I was in Sunderland at that point and

28:33

was laterally involved in some of the work that the

28:36

Shure Start centres were doing. What made it really

28:38

effective was it engaged families and

28:40

communities more actively in

28:43

the delivery of services and in the shape and

28:45

design of services. So just to give

28:47

one very small example but I think is

28:49

instructive. Lots of dads wanted Saturday morning activities

28:51

for example. The professionals involved in delivering those

28:53

services probably would have never thought let's open

28:55

up on a Saturday morning but the dads

28:57

were saying that we're working during the week

28:59

we want to be able to access services

29:01

on a Saturday. The other thing that families

29:03

really wanted was a safe indoor play space.

29:05

They wanted some kind of soft play because

29:07

they often didn't have gardens, didn't have safe

29:09

outdoor spaces. By listening to parents and families

29:11

responding to what they're telling us and using that

29:14

as the basis for shaping services so that you

29:16

can engage people. If people are coming to use

29:18

that soft play then you

29:20

can have a conversation about nutrition, about

29:22

sleeping, about health visitors can

29:24

do so in a way that isn't necessarily

29:26

just the heavy hand of the state being

29:29

intrusive in people's lives and it can feel

29:31

sometimes intrusive to families. And then the data

29:33

suggests that some of the latest stuff was

29:35

less effective. What was the difference with the

29:38

latest stuff and what's your theory on why

29:40

it was maybe less effective? I'm not sure

29:42

it engaged families and communities quite

29:44

as effectively. And what was it and why

29:46

was it less engaging? The program evolved over

29:48

time and they did become more focused on supporting

29:50

people into work too which I absolutely think is

29:52

the right thing to do and the part about

29:54

Shure's Start that I think gets soft and overlooked

29:56

as the impact it had in terms of people's

29:59

ability to get involved. Volunteering, get back in

30:01

training and education put it became a bigger

30:03

program with less of a focus on involving

30:05

families in the the lesson I would take.

30:07

To get most of bureaucracy can ensure that

30:09

with less some the phone to involvement over

30:11

time or. I think lose a bit less to fit

30:13

less of the tale of into local circumstances and have been

30:15

the case in the early A face a sofa made. The.

30:18

Lesson from last as she has to strike. A balance

30:20

between the kind of course services

30:22

you wants any she'll start center

30:24

to provide plus Weiser abilities than

30:27

communities to shape. What goes on with in the

30:29

center to. His his really good example. This is

30:31

a great to see from New Labour sauce

30:33

on which has now been complete be validated

30:35

by all this research and a set of

30:38

in a club effects if you've looked at

30:40

it is analyze you've even sound which bit

30:42

of it was the best at which but

30:44

what less. Well listen on the minister because.

30:46

Sadly the economy is in a total mess

30:48

on it will take us time. To rebuild

30:51

and they'll be lot sits in the

30:53

manifesto around education but in this area

30:55

I only want to make commitments that

30:57

I am utterly confident that we can

30:59

deliver on into the from quickly and

31:01

a program like she was. Start how

31:03

much the cost a was substantial from

31:05

they will someday was a substantial investments

31:08

like billions tell you that yeah absolutely

31:10

which was shown to be not just

31:12

cause sectors thought to say the Nhs

31:14

money for example until a plea to

31:16

better outcomes. So Sigma thought the you

31:18

could sort of borrow against as savings.

31:20

Her I would love to be able

31:22

to commit to more. Of course of

31:24

course I would. And there is still murders

31:26

Reeves said to my soldiers was Christmas

31:28

August out while I was Rachel's Satoshi

31:30

secretary of also might have to go alipio

31:33

not allow Zola. They were allowed to

31:35

spend any thanks. I've got a practice

31:37

or operates okay. let's take a quick break.

31:45

Was you since been of this campaign?

31:47

The mean it's a very very very

31:49

strange comparing this to me or be

31:51

vogler lot of election campaigns. It seems

31:53

like we're halfway through and one team.

31:56

is going around looking like that give

31:58

it up and other team is going

32:01

around thinking well we'd take the ball

32:03

into the corner flag anyway. Is that

32:05

a fair assessment? I mean it's you know this

32:07

this will be my fifth general election

32:10

as a candidate the first time I've been in

32:12

the shadow cabinet for a general election so it's

32:15

different on lots of levels for me personally. What

32:17

I really love about it is just

32:19

a chance to get out around the country. It

32:22

sounds like you're avoiding the question. No, no, no

32:24

I just... You're going to give us a lovely

32:26

portrait of how much you enjoy the campaign but

32:28

he asked you about the two teams and what

32:30

they're up to. The greatest respect I'm actually not

32:32

that interested in that which is why I'm just taking

32:34

it to getting out around the country because that's the

32:36

bit I love. You know we've been

32:38

wanting this election for so long now we've got

32:41

it. I'm just enjoying the opportunity to actually

32:43

persuade people to vote Labour. Bridget, elections aren't

32:45

about the participants they're about the public. Yeah.

32:47

And you're talking to the different public if

32:49

you're not doing the public. I've been meeting

32:51

a lot of who are kind of oh

32:55

God can't just get over with that

32:57

sort of sense of you know it

32:59

feels a very very strange atmosphere

33:01

for an election to me. Look, there's some

33:03

different dynamics going on. You get a

33:06

lot of people saying everything is so

33:08

broken how on earth are any of you going to fix that?

33:10

That is a really big issue and I think there

33:12

is a fundamental question of demonstrating that politics

33:14

can be a force for good and governments can actually

33:16

change things when it just feels it at the moment

33:18

nothing works. And if you take like just the personality

33:20

so there's Rishi Suginak did his manifesto and it was

33:22

full of this and full of this and promise and

33:24

tax cut and blah blah blah and

33:27

that's his approach. Is it Kia's personality in

33:29

a way that is saying you've already said

33:31

I'm only going to promise things that I

33:33

know I can deliver? Is it a personality

33:35

thing here that is sort of slightly worried

33:37

about over promising? No, I think it

33:39

goes to that point about trust in politics. And

33:42

I think people's trust in politics and politicians

33:44

to actually get things done and make a

33:46

difference isn't great at the

33:48

moment. And I spend a lot of time

33:50

just having to be quite upfront about both the

33:53

scale of the challenge and how we will fix

33:55

it and the time it will take if we form that

33:57

next government. And that's why I think Kia Is right

33:59

to talk about. A. Decade of national in

34:01

the old because the problems of built up over the

34:03

last fourteen years will not be solved overnight and I

34:06

wish that I could and wave a magic wand and

34:08

and thought at all. But I do think we have

34:10

to level with the public because I think were we

34:12

to. Make kind of grandiose promises.

34:14

I don't wanna? Don't think people would buy it and see

34:17

where things will be fundamentally corrosive. Just a simple

34:19

the sex I wonder whether you

34:21

as his concerns something I didn't

34:23

mean to say but slightly sounds

34:25

are so your your analysis is

34:27

basically that the problem is a

34:30

bunch of ignorant uncaring tories were

34:32

in school fourteen years not swipe

34:34

real screws and when good people

34:36

who care about social justice com

34:38

and gonna be great My sense

34:40

is this a loss of things

34:42

apart from the horse's the towards

34:45

policy which make governing person for

34:47

disco and. I had a lot

34:49

of comics times and cabinet myself

34:51

so I self were incredibly hardworking

34:54

trying very hard and a lot

34:56

of things. Don't Work.

34:58

And it wasn't simply that we

35:00

were helpless or cruise or uncaring and

35:03

I wanted to an accent. You're

35:05

able to step back and see some

35:07

of the make a structural problems

35:09

that surround britain, our economy, our democracy

35:11

which are gonna make it. Pretty.

35:13

Tough for anybody. Thompson A, Maybe have a little bit

35:16

more sympathy? For. What's happened

35:18

last fourteen years? So. Firstly,

35:20

I think that. The problems of

35:22

the com particularly acute in the last

35:24

three to five years because we've had

35:26

a party idling has been actually focused

35:28

on governing or making the decisions. Does

35:30

not to say what I would for

35:32

couple came before us been perfectly wonderful

35:35

book. It's been most acute in recent

35:37

years and I think it's less our

35:39

country weekend it's street lead to frankly

35:41

you know he he travels internationally in

35:43

I've been able to travel a bit

35:45

intensive looking other countries education systems people

35:47

just say what wanna say a lot

35:49

doing and one has been going. On

35:51

in Britain and I'm proud of Far Country

35:53

by wants to be able to the not

35:55

be proud to. Still hasn't felt that way

35:57

in recent years, but I think he deems.

36:00

To look back. If he's been and government forcing

36:02

yes asked. I would still have quite a long

36:04

time to make your mark to set the country

36:06

in the direction that you would wish. and if

36:08

you look back after such a period of time

36:10

a think this is the country in better shape

36:12

than which. We found that. I agree with you.

36:14

One hundred set my agreed it's to assess it.

36:16

My productivity has insisted. Since two thousand and eight.

36:19

The. Economy's contract. It's twenty nine

36:21

seen with performing very, very

36:23

badly incessantly, But if she

36:25

was looking at it, some

36:27

states. To

36:32

towards runway but he would say the big problem.

36:35

For. Access Democracy were getting very old. We

36:38

haven't sorted out our immigration policy, the

36:40

presence of global trade a turning against

36:42

us with never worked out how to

36:44

do productivity and skills in this country.

36:46

We don't know how to build infrastructure

36:48

such such as sex. The recently to

36:50

for not Cg optimistic is because they

36:52

concede that there would be historical structural

36:54

issues here which I do the on

36:56

this trust busters make the whole thing

36:59

worse but I think unless you have

37:01

to stay single it's it's gonna be

37:03

tough to be honest about what's happening

37:05

next ten. Years ago. Don't doubt for one second

37:07

that they're all. Fake. Global challenges On

37:09

that. they're all structural challenges that we

37:11

face as country don't class enough one

37:13

second. But I think that the risk with

37:15

that argument is that you. Can

37:18

get so place where you move. Almost done. I kind of

37:20

agency to your own government in shaping some of that on.

37:22

I do think there is more that we could do to

37:24

save some. Of that, whether that's democracy as you were

37:26

talking about that. Or skills policy who hide

37:28

and seek democracy. Well, I think the recent

37:30

for example. I think there is a really.

37:33

Big. And I'm this is happening kind of across

37:35

the western world is something here to about the

37:38

falling birth rates. In our country.

37:40

and there are lots of reasons for that. I'm

37:42

not suggesting it straight forward. It's I think

37:44

it's a complex issue. Other countries as a

37:46

say, grappling with this book because housing costs

37:48

so high. because the cost of childcare is

37:50

so high because work isn't as secure as it

37:52

should be i believe because the safety not that

37:54

a lot of people of depends upon around social

37:56

security isn't even the way that it was i

37:59

believe the people on making decisions about family

38:01

size driven by economic circumstance to a

38:03

much greater degree than was the case previously.

38:05

And that does have consequences in the long term

38:07

for our country. Now, that's not for me about

38:09

politicians saying to people, you should have a family

38:12

of whatever size. I personally believe that family should

38:14

be a broad concept in which we value a

38:17

range of different kind of structures. I come from what

38:19

people would have in the past called a non-traditional family.

38:21

But for me, it's about the love that families give,

38:23

not the size or shape. But at the same time,

38:25

I speak to too many people across the country who

38:27

tell me they would have loved to have another child but

38:29

they just couldn't afford it. And I think

38:31

that's why government can come in, in terms

38:33

of responding to what is a... Do

38:36

you also include a kind of very straightforward de

38:39

Gaulle type brief for our future

38:41

message? No, I think it's

38:43

about the wider conditions that allow

38:45

people to make choices. I think

38:47

it's largely economic imperative that's driving

38:49

some of that decision making at the moment. And

38:52

we need to take action, for example, on insecure housing,

38:54

on the fact that lots of people can't afford to

38:56

buy a home or the homes aren't there, and

38:59

the cost of childcare. I mean, all of

39:01

these are drivers, I think, that are pushing

39:03

people to make decisions about either deferring, having

39:05

a family or limiting family size. And that's

39:07

to the point about choice and the role

39:09

for government in giving people a greater degree

39:11

of control over how they live their lives.

39:14

It's very interesting. I mean, I'm not sure

39:16

about the data because there are a lot

39:18

of much more equal, wealthy societies that aren't

39:20

having kids. So I'm not sure that that's

39:22

true. But maybe, maybe. I think it's

39:24

complex. I think there are different drivers. And part of

39:26

it is that, which is a good thing, people start

39:29

work later in their lives and would have been the

39:31

case 100 years ago. People do

39:33

live longer as well alongside that, which is

39:35

wonderful, but brings with it challenges that we

39:37

need to respond to as well. Two of

39:39

the other kind of big factors people look

39:41

at, like COVID, Ukraine. Where are you on

39:44

national security? And because it looks kind

39:46

of scary to me, I mean, Alice is more cheered

39:48

up by the European election results. But I look at

39:50

Germany, I look at France, I look at Italy, I

39:52

look at Putin's up to, I mean, it was a

39:54

kind of 1930s feel. Do you feel

39:57

that there is a real looming crisis

39:59

and emergence? facing the world and that

40:01

any government coming in is going to have to

40:03

really step up in terms of addressing the global

40:05

crisis. I think the trends that we see are

40:08

alarming and not least where

40:10

it comes to Russia, Ukraine and the

40:12

impact that Fed had here and

40:14

the fact that we have been so exposed. I

40:17

mean that had wider kind of domestic consequences arising

40:19

out of international considerations. But it's also

40:21

why it's essential that we have a

40:23

more stable government here in the UK.

40:26

I think we can and should be a bigger player in

40:29

some of this. Even outside of the European Union, I

40:31

think there is a role for Britain

40:33

in that. Well, you know,

40:35

we're a NATO member. We have influence around

40:37

the world. Our kind of soft power, as

40:39

you will know, where it comes to the

40:42

numbers of people that will come and study here,

40:44

for example, and then return home. I

40:47

think we have a reach around the world that we

40:49

need to understand, but that we

40:51

need to be careful we don't limit. We're

40:53

already talking about the European Union though. You

40:55

take Macron, who is a formidable politician in

40:58

many, many ways, and yet has now seen

41:00

this sort of pretty remarkable

41:02

rise of the far right there.

41:04

Scholz in Germany, who's come

41:06

in, country felt good about it. And

41:09

very, very quickly, because they haven't really

41:11

delivered, far right has been on the

41:13

rise there as well. Do you feel

41:15

that sense of responsibility that if a

41:17

left of centre social democratic

41:19

government comes in here and doesn't

41:21

address a lot of these big

41:24

systemic challenges that we face, then

41:26

that threat exists here as well? I think there

41:28

is a volatility and there's certainly a volatility

41:30

in terms of people's voting behaviour. If Labour

41:33

manages to win this general election, that

41:35

will be a massive turnaround from

41:37

2019 that was in and of itself

41:39

a big shift. So I think

41:41

that shows that what can swing can swing

41:43

against you. And I

41:46

think people are less fixed in terms of how

41:48

they will vote and party allegiance than would have

41:51

been the case in the past. So if we

41:53

form that next government, demonstrating

41:55

very quickly that we have earned

41:58

people's trust and our delivery. will

42:00

be absolutely crucial. You know the Northeast very well

42:03

and you must have been horrified

42:05

by what Boris Johnson did with this rebel stuff.

42:07

Can you explain that? How was he able to

42:09

do that in 2019? Why did

42:11

so many people that you know and then

42:14

the consistency surrounding you vote Tory when those

42:16

were traditional labor seats? A combination of factors.

42:18

I mean, Boris Johnson was an unusual politician

42:20

in many ways and had a charismatic appeal.

42:22

I think it will be undeniable

42:25

to lose sight of that. Jeremy

42:27

Corbyn was a big factor, really big factor. Brexit

42:29

came into it before us so then Jeremy Corbyn.

42:32

I mean, some of it was a vote for

42:34

Boris Johnson. Some of it was a vote against

42:36

where the Labour Party had got to. And

42:39

there was an awful lot of despair amongst traditional

42:41

Labour voters who felt that we turned our backs on

42:44

them and it wasn't the Labour Party that they'd voted

42:46

for in the past. But they were the people who

42:48

after party gate in particular felt the

42:50

most betrayed and most let down

42:52

because they'd for the first time in their lives had

42:54

put their trust in the Conservative

42:57

Party and just felt there was a slap

42:59

in the face. And that was the moment. I think it happened

43:01

more quickly than people noticed.

43:04

And just going back to you used this phrase

43:06

before that they felt betrayed and let down. What

43:09

is it that they felt betrayed? Well, what sort of

43:11

things were you hearing on doorsteps that made people in

43:13

2019 feel betrayed? They felt that the Labour Party was

43:15

out of step with their priorities. It wasn't the party

43:18

that had been the party their

43:20

family had voted for traditionally. What are examples of that?

43:23

Examples would be particularly around national security. They felt that

43:25

we weren't, that they were concerned as to whether we

43:27

would keep the country safe. But was that already

43:29

starting under us when Tony and Gordon were

43:31

in charge? Was that already starting? I

43:33

mean, there was some of it there, I would say in 2015, but

43:36

it massively accelerated. 2017 was a

43:38

funny election in lots of different ways. It came up

43:40

then, but not to the same degree. By 2019,

43:42

people had made their minds up about where the

43:44

Labour Party was and they didn't much like it.

43:47

And it was for a lot of people that

43:50

was a really upsetting experience. I

43:53

would speak to people on doors who would

43:55

be really upset, genuinely upset about

43:57

the fact they didn't feel they could support.

44:00

party that they have supported all of their lives.

44:02

Some of those people did vote conservative, some people

44:04

just stayed at home. So in your patch, how

44:06

many of those have come back? Well, we'll find

44:08

out soon enough, I guess. But I think

44:10

there is a recognition that Kia has turned the Labour Party

44:12

around and we're back to where we need to be in

44:14

line with their priorities.

44:16

But again, for people that have moved away from

44:18

us and have then come back, we

44:20

can't take that for granted. And we have to

44:23

demonstrate that we're going to hold to

44:25

what we have promised. Coming towards the

44:27

very end, I've got hopefully a fun last

44:29

question, but penultimate question before I go find.

44:31

What do you make about what was good

44:33

and what was bad about what Michael Gove

44:35

and Nick Gibb did with their

44:38

education reforms? So what I would say about

44:40

Michael Gove in particular was that he brought a

44:42

real sense of drive and determination. He was clear about

44:44

what he wanted to do right from the outset. He

44:46

got on with it and he made it happen. And

44:48

there is a lesson in that, I believe. They also

44:50

took the evidence of what was working

44:53

and developed it further. So the Conservatives

44:55

will talk a lot about the rollout of

44:57

phonics across schools. Absolutely. And I've

44:59

had this conversation with Nick Gibb as well

45:01

and gently pointed out that it was under

45:03

Labour that we first started that they then continued

45:05

it. I think that does show the benefit of

45:08

continuity of policymaking in areas such as education. Another

45:10

example I would give would be it was the

45:12

Conservatives who brought in a national curriculum. That I

45:14

think was a fine development. I believe we need

45:16

to reform the curriculum that we've got at the

45:19

moment. But there are areas

45:21

I think where continuity across education policymaking

45:24

is important. There are changes that I would want

45:26

to make, however, if I were Education Secretary. But that

45:28

sense of focus and drive, I think

45:31

Michael brought education far more

45:33

central to the work of the Conservative government than would

45:35

have been the case otherwise. And

45:37

that's certainly a lesson I take away. Give

45:39

me a couple of changes you'd like to see in the curriculum. So we'll

45:41

have an expert-led review of curriculum assessment overall. I

45:44

think there is a real issue around creativity in

45:46

our state schools and the lack of access that

45:49

state school students have to music, sport, art

45:51

and drama. I don't think that

45:53

should be the preserve of just those whose parents can afford

45:55

to pay for extras on a weekend or after

45:57

school. And I want to make that a really

45:59

important part. of the curriculum in the future.

46:02

Also at Field Thrall we've had a focus on reading

46:04

and on phonics and I support that. We've

46:07

kind of forgotten about early maths in particular so

46:09

a real focus on early maths, on numeracy and

46:11

on making sure that our children have got a

46:13

solid foundation there. We're slipping behind as a

46:15

country on that. My final question, can you

46:17

think of an intriguing question that you've ever

46:20

had in a political interview which has allowed

46:22

you to show a different side of yourself

46:24

or go in the direction that interested you

46:26

as opposed to being kind of hit in

46:28

the normal way? No is the

46:30

answer and I will try to address this.

46:32

The questions actually that are toughest, I do

46:34

a lot of school visits, actually the questions

46:36

that kids will ask you are usually

46:39

far more to the point and

46:41

there's a directness and a simplicity because they're

46:43

not worrying about how does this sound or

46:45

can I really ask that. And they're the

46:47

hardest questions to answer, just why

46:49

is there poverty in the world or you know why

46:52

is it that you will shout at each other in

46:54

Parliament, whatever it might be. And

46:56

actually you're spending a lot of time around

46:58

children and young people as I do. Genuinely

47:02

that is often a lot tougher

47:04

than some of the more

47:06

kind of traditional political questions that you would get where you can

47:08

kind of weave your way through it a bit if you want

47:10

to. I was hoping you were going to provide me with a

47:12

nice fun question for you but I'm just going to have to

47:14

finish with why is there poverty in the world? Oh

47:18

I think we go back to

47:20

our kind of class-based discussion where

47:22

we began the structural inequality that

47:24

people experience is what I would

47:26

say. Thank you and enjoy the rest of the campaign.

47:29

Thank you. Thank you. So

47:33

Rory, you asked directly

47:36

to the Shadow Secretary of State of

47:38

Education how to get Tory

47:40

like you over into the Labour camp.

47:43

So how far into the Labour camp did she tempt you?

47:46

Not very far sadly. I mean I was hoping

47:48

that she would reach out in a way that

47:50

Angela Rayner tried to and say okay I'm going

47:52

to try to put myself in your shoes, I'm

47:54

going to try to show some respect. Maybe

47:57

just something like you could easily deal

47:59

with me by... saying, oh, well,

48:01

you know, the Tory party is two things. This

48:03

is kind of horrible, kind of far right populist

48:05

sort of government thing. But then there's a good

48:07

one nation tradition and the Watorian piece that I

48:09

really like and respect to the like you, Rory

48:11

or Ken Clark. And you know, we'd welcome you

48:14

into the party and you know, and actually some

48:17

of Kia Starmer's rhetoric, you know,

48:19

as you've pointed out, is kind of appealing to

48:21

people like me. But she

48:24

doesn't want to go there or she doesn't.

48:26

I mean, I don't know. I mean, I

48:28

think she is very embedded in

48:30

a worldview where somebody with my

48:32

background, my privilege, my accent is not a friend

48:35

and she's not going to put much thought into

48:37

working out how to persuade me to vote for

48:39

her. Do you think so? I don't know. Is

48:41

that not how she came across to you? I

48:43

don't know. It's interesting. I think she's got a

48:45

real warmth to her. But I think that there

48:48

is, and maybe it's partly because we are in

48:50

the middle of a campaign. And I mean, those

48:54

of us who watch this rather than listen to it,

48:57

I think when I was putting the sense of the

48:59

Tories have vacated the field, but

49:01

even with the goal of wide open labour

49:03

taking it to the corner flag, I sort

49:05

of sensed, see, kind of from

49:07

the civil, I was saying. And likewise, when you were talking

49:09

about wealth tax, I think

49:12

she'd love to be able to say, God, I

49:14

wish we could do that. So I think there

49:16

is something about a bit sort of restrained because

49:18

of the campaign, because of collective responsibility, and

49:20

all of that. And I think she was

49:22

I mean, I felt that she's

49:25

absolutely got no qualms about saying that

49:27

as far as she's concerned, this policy

49:29

on private school fees, she wasn't really

49:31

listening. She wasn't really. She's

49:34

not she's going to worry about the 93%, not

49:36

the few that may have to leave to go

49:38

into state schools. But I think

49:40

you see again, I mean, I don't know if

49:42

it's absolutely nothing to do with me. But in

49:44

communication terms, again, you could say, of course, I

49:46

care about every child in the country. And, you

49:49

know, we will, of course, be working with these schools

49:51

to make sure that children who come in are properly

49:54

cooperated, supported, you

49:56

know, how what sisters

49:58

you got a place. But you don't

50:00

need to say to my saying, how about the children? Frankly,

50:06

I care about the 93% because that

50:08

slightly sounds like you're saying. I care

50:10

less. Well, I do think though,

50:12

if I wrote my new European column about this

50:14

last week, I think there is something a bit

50:16

weird about the fact that we've

50:18

had so many state schools have actually closed,

50:21

had to close and nobody bats

50:23

an eyelid. So much sort of stuff going wrong

50:25

in schools and the media don't really care about

50:27

it. And I think that's probably where she

50:29

is. I think she is, she

50:31

probably doesn't care that much whether some may have to

50:33

leave a private school to go to a state school

50:36

because she's come from a place that says there's

50:38

nothing wrong with state schools provided the government, you

50:41

know, support them properly. Any child shifting

50:43

education, you need a bit of support.

50:45

I mean, you changed schools. I did, and I hated it.

50:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did. And

50:51

I think the other thing I was trying to, as

50:54

we were talking, I was trying to have in my

50:56

head, as I always do during campaigns, if

50:58

I wasn't you and I wasn't me, but I was somebody

51:00

who is sort

51:02

of trying to decide what to do in

51:05

this election, trying to decide whether Labour would

51:07

be a good government. I

51:09

think she'd make a good impression on people

51:11

who are just dipping in and out of this

51:13

campaign. I think people would think

51:15

she's nice, she's human, she's empathetic. I think what you

51:17

were looking for, and I would like to do it

51:19

more as well, was just the

51:22

sense that again, I think this may be

51:24

the fact we're in the campaign mode. I

51:26

felt, for example, with Wes, Streeking, I felt

51:28

with Alex Chalk actually, when we were talking

51:30

to Alex Chalk the other day, that there

51:32

was a part of the mind that was

51:34

going beyond where they are in the

51:36

campaign. Yeah, a couple of things. I mean, it's

51:38

so difficult to know how much is personality, how

51:41

much is training, how much

51:43

is campaign. The things that were interesting

51:45

to me is 99% of MPs, if you

51:47

say, listen, the house comes

51:51

a bit crap and straight up, will say, yeah,

51:53

of course it is. A lot of it was

51:55

infuriating. I found the whole thing absolutely mad. I

51:57

was able to have very little impact. She

52:00

really didn't want to get there. She was just like, it's

52:02

such a privilege. I got to ask, you know, PMQs. Ditto,

52:04

when you were like, you know, this

52:07

campaign's a bit weird. She was like, I

52:09

love getting out on the thing. So here

52:11

are my possible explanations. Number one, she's a

52:13

very, very positive, optimistic human being who

52:16

basically either doesn't see or doesn't want to

52:18

dwell on any of the downsides of difficulties

52:20

in life. And maybe that was

52:22

implicit in her talking about her father. I just don't want

52:24

to think about, you know, my father at

52:26

all and I'm fine, it's all great. Secondly,

52:28

she is a professional politician beyond professional politicians.

52:30

She says she went to her first labor

52:32

meetings at the age of two, she joined

52:35

the party at 15. She

52:37

was running the labor club at university. She became an MP,

52:39

you know, I had Parliament with me. I didn't realize that

52:41

she was 25, 26 when

52:45

she came to Parliament with us. So maybe

52:47

there's that, you know, you are the professional

52:49

politician and this is the new

52:51

style of political communication, which is all respect to

52:53

her. I'm going to win an election. We're going

52:56

to do our business. I'm not interested in being

52:58

charming. I'm not interested in being funny. I'm not

53:00

interested in taking any risk to go off on

53:02

some anecdote about the weirdness of Parliament or my

53:05

life on the action campaign. I'm just going to

53:07

land the place. And I did feel that a

53:09

bit with Rachel Reeves. And of course, that's of

53:11

course why I want to answer Rayna because she's

53:14

prepared to take more hectic directions. Yeah, I was

53:16

very interested that she talked about, she made a

53:18

point of reminding me that

53:21

Shaw's start was not as

53:23

it were a pledge, that

53:25

it followed. And I wondered,

53:28

it made me think, oh, she's got a few things up her

53:30

sleeve. Could they not? Maybe this doesn't make any

53:32

sense. Would they get in trouble for this? But

53:34

I would have thought there could be some things

53:36

that you could say when the fiscal situation allows,

53:38

we will look very seriously at reintroducing some bits

53:41

of Shaw's start. Yeah. So you could

53:43

signal to people. Well, they've done that on defense, haven't

53:45

they? They've done it on defense spending. I think something

53:47

like Shaw's start, you probably have to do it or

53:49

you don't. But if their basic argument is, we can't

53:51

do it because we're bust. Yeah. It'd

53:53

be nice to see them say, if we were less bust

53:55

in this particular economic condition. That's what I was going to

53:57

do. Yeah, and she did say that she, and she's right.

54:00

Rather he gone to reinvent what you did

54:02

celebrated by the the whole issue of trying

54:04

to address child poverty or didn't know what

54:06

teachers and we have a more teachers and

54:08

had to does it wasn't his post as

54:10

you know lesson or they thought because it

54:12

isn't education education education in the way that

54:14

there had been done by the is very

54:16

much childcare child poverty of their the fundamentals

54:18

and I think it would have been a

54:21

different in see the David Blunkett or indeed

54:23

Michael Geist I think it's gave a beating

54:25

that and he's thinking back to the insists

54:27

he gave in the run up to Twenty

54:29

Ten. You would have sounds sixty

54:31

seventy cents. It. Wants

54:36

to reorganize Cost that again isn't quite

54:38

how saying players it's is and plate

54:40

and temps of social justice that it.

54:42

It's not quite the come in nerdy.

54:44

let me get my hands on a

54:46

school the sunset he tried to this

54:48

is where we want to go. Guess

54:50

well I'll see you can see Thank

54:52

you Elsa and that with really worth

54:54

one thousand.